Update on Crane

[Lurch]

From BizOfBaseball

And from his Twitter

BizballMaury Maury Brown
Rumor was Selig told Crane Weds. deal was dead for Astros. League source says, "Not true"

[jbm]

what does "Weds. deal" mean? 

[MusicMan]

what does "Weds. deal" mean? 

Told Crane, on Wednesday, that the deal was dead.

[BudGirl]

Rumor was Selig told Crane Weds. deal was dead for Astros. League source says, "Not true"

I read to mean:

A rumor was that Bud Selig told Jim Crane on Wednesday the deal for the Astros was dead.  A league souce denied the rumor saying, "Not true."

[roadrunner]

Take it for what it's worth, but there's a guy over on Shaggybevo claiming that this deal went from likely to 50/50.  Apparently the structure of the financing has too many parts (something like over 110 LLCs) and MLB still doesn't like Crane.  Also, Bud told Drayton not to introduce Crane as the owner back in May but Drayton did it anyway.

[hostros7]

Take it for what it's worth, but there's a guy over on Shaggybevo claiming that this deal went from likely to 50/50.  Apparently the structure of the financing has too many parts (something like over 110 LLCs) and MLB still doesn't like Crane.  Also, Bud told Drayton not to introduce Crane as the owner back in May but Drayton did it anyway.

I'm no expert, but why would there be 110 LLCs?  It would be more logical to have 1 LLC and have all the various participants in the ownership group have their respective ownership in that entity.  Perhaps you mean 110 LPs?  That would make a little more sense. 

Does anyone have any idea if 110 is a lot for these ownership groups (my guess would be that 20 or so is at the high end)?  I would think it isn't a problem if documented and structured properly. 

[jbm]

Thanks.  I thought twitter was for breaking news.  

I like that an argument 11 years ago between a father and son is used as more fodder against Crane.  The more they throw out things that might, but don't necessarily disqualify him, the more I suspect there is something else driving it.

If Brown's sources say that the move to the AL isn't an issue, then MLB should come out publically and state as much.  That way, the next buyer knows what they are bidding on.  Lacking a definitive statement on the matter, that issue will always cloud the bidding.  

[roadrunner]

I'm no expert, but why would there be 110 LLCs?  It would be more logical to have 1 LLC and have all the various participants in the ownership group have their respective ownership in that entity.  Perhaps you mean 110 LPs?  That would make a little more sense. 

Does anyone have any idea if 110 is a lot for these ownership groups (my guess would be that 20 or so is at the high end)?  I would think it isn't a problem if documented and structured properly. 

No idea, I'm literally just quoting my memory from what I read a couple of days ago.  Here's the actual post:

Is this the thread where folks would read about and discuss the sale of the franchise? I guess this will work.

The prospects on the sale get more grim each day, which sucks. There are about 110 LLCs that committed to contributing money in the Crane transaction. MLB hated that to begin with, and now, a number of those LLCs have had to pull out because of market conditions.

Beyond that, MLB HATES Crane. They keep finding things they don't like with every stone they overturn, much of which involves female issues or race issues in past work situations. I am not referencing the public stuff like the Fortune article a few months ago about his tenure at Eagle. It's pretty clear the dude is just not a very good guy or at least chooses some associates and practices poorly.

There is solid buzz that McLane may be told to eat the deal and hold out for something better. It's supposedly gone from about 90/10 to 50/50 to get it closed. It seems like it will probably still happen, but the Dodgers thing isn't helping.

Don't shoot the messenger. I am an Astros fan and I want the sale to happen as I'm tired of Uncle Drayton. I am passing this on to y'all as fans like me. The info comes from someone who is as close to the deal as an average Joe on the inside. If this is already known stuff, apologies for the inside cloak and dagger stuff. I heard it about a week ago and forgot to pass it on and I haven't been watching the news this week.

[Navin R Johnson]

The "war profiteering" thing ain't helping Crane out either.

FWIW.  While in San Fran watching the Astros play, I had one of Crane's employees sit next to me.  He claimed to be the manager of one of Eagles locations in the Bay Area.  Anyway, first thing out of his mouth... "hey you guys are Astros fans?  My boss just bought the team."  I asked him a couple questions about the sale, but he really didn't know much about it.  He did mention calling Barry (the Astros traveling secretary) and playing the "do you know who I am" card, to get tickets."
 
He had some friends sitting with him who weren't associated with Crane, they were all loud and cussed like sailors most of the game, most of which they didn't pay attention too.  Supposedly Jim Crane was at the game sitting in a luxury box, so the guy sitting next to me wasn't high on the company pecking order since he was in the field boxes.

If this manager is any representation of the companies culture then I could see why they ended up with EEOC claims.  Obviously though it was just one anecdotal experience.

[sporadic]

If this manager is any representation of the companies culture then I could see why they ended up with EEOC claims.  Obviously though it was just one anecdotal experience.

A friend of mine works for Crane, pretty damn high up the food chain as well.  You would be hard pressed to find a nicer guy...anywhere.

[jbm]

I suspect that there are few individuals, or companies, that would look good if subject to this type of scrutiny/innuendo.  IMO, MLB should quit feeding shit to their shill reporters and just turn his ass down.  No need to tear the guy down in the process.  Shit, if he gets aproved now, all they have done is created a villian for those fans predisposed to that sort of thing.   

That being said, Crane may actually be a grade A asshole, but I have no idea if that is unique among MLB owners.  Apparently, reporters aren't interested in finding that out.   

[Waldo]

You would be hard pressed to find a nicer guy...anywhere.

Your friend, or Crane (or both)?

[sporadic]

Your friend, or Crane (or both)?

my friend, and he seems to like the hell out of Crane.  And since I think so highly of my friend, I tend to lean towards liking Crane as well.

[gleach]

A very good friend of mine is close to Crane and can't speak highly enough of him. This is a person whom I trust on character assessment. Of course you would also have to consider my character assessment, so there's that.

[Fredia]

i thought that was a prerequisite  for posting on the zone

[austro]

i thought that was a prerequisite  for posting on the zone

Ok, now we know for a fact that somebody has hacked Fredia's account.

[jbm]

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/09/06/11/Sources-Cranes-stance-on-AL-holding-Astr/landing_astros.html?blockID=560090&feedID=3714

This article implies that the real holdup is Crane's unwillingness to move to the AL.   

[Lurch]

Nice.  While from the first article

Those close to the matter say that the league is not pushing for the move to the AL and that it is not a factor in determining when, or if, a vote to approve Crane is taken

[JimR]

Ok, now we know for a fact that somebody has hacked Fredia's account.

that is not what we know for a fact.

[jbm]

I agree that the two articles might be viewed as competing spin.  The first article threw it out there directly in stating that Crane would use this as a talking point.  This guy's sources are probably in Crane's camp and Brown's sources are probably in MLB.  Since no one will come out with the truth, I can only judge each side by which makes the most sense.  

Nothing from Brown has ever made sense to me.  Everyone in MLB knew about Crane's history.  Hell, it isn't his first time through the process.  I also don't buy that MLB owners care about personal indiscretions that much, especially when franchise values are at stake.  Nothing about that storyline has ever passed the sniff test to me.  

The alternative theory does make sense.  MLB is trying to leverage the approval to achieve their aims, and has so far been unsuccessful.  They keep increasing the heat, doubling down on their strategy.  However, it also makes perfect sense that if Crane continues to hold out, then he will get an unconditional approval because, at the end of the day, the owners care more about franchise values than they do about some marginally persuasive argument about league balance.  That won't hold up the CBA.    

[MRaup]

Ok, now we know for a fact that somebody has hacked Fredia's account.

Proof for: Spells stuff correctly sometimes.

Proof against: Same old schtick.

I think the against still wins.

[ValpoCory]

One positive step in recent weeks, sources said, is the softening of incoming Houston Astros owner Jim Crane on moving his team to the AL West under a realignment plan that would even out the leagues at 15 teams apiece and allow six five-team divisions. Crane’s reticence – playing three division foes in the Pacific time zone – is allayed by the Texas Rangers’ ability to lock in a huge TV deal in spite of their AL West affiliation as well as the possibility of negotiations offering a more balanced schedule.

http://www.lockerpulse.com/News/Selig-has-a-cure-for-baseballs-long-September-Yahoo-Sports-S1741452/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Houston-Astros

[jbm]

Doesn't sound good, but doesn't make much sense either as the Astros don't need to lock in a lucrative network deal.  They will have their own network and the question would be how much that network could generate.  I don't see how the network generates more with the Astros being in the AL.  This sounds like Nolan spin to me.

[LonerATO]

A move to the AL West would hurt the Astros more than anything, you will have those that cheer for both Texas teams because they are in different leagues and once both are in the same division I am sure those people will go ahead and support the winning team that is owned by Nolan. Moving the Astros will make this team even less competitive when you have an owner in Crane who will no spend a bunch of money.

[remy]

those that cheer for both Texas teams

Ew, gross.  Do those people really exist?

[Waldo]

Ew, gross.  Do those people really exist?

My father-in-law.

[LonerATO]

Ew, gross.  Do those people really exist?

My cousin is one and a few guys I work with are like that, but then again they also like the Cowboys and Texans.

[Fynn]

Ew, gross.  Do those people really exist?

Living in Dallas I definitely would be able to see the astros more often, but I shudder at the thought of following an AL team......don't know if I could do it-even if it is the good guys.

[ValpoCory]

I shudder at the thought of following an AL team......don't know if I could do it-even if it is the good guys.

Seriously?

[Fynn]

Seriously?

Nah, not really---I know I would still pull for them.  If I were going to jump ship I would have a long time ago.

[strosrays]

Seriously?

I am struggling with this.  I don't know if I could follow them to the AL.  I am probably being overly dramatic about it, but it bothers me that I even have to think about it.

Proof for: Spells stuff correctly sometimes.

Proof against: Same old schtick.

I think the against still wins.

It was okay, even entertaining at times, back when it showed up here only every once in a great while.

[Fynn]

It was okay, even entertaining at times, back when it showed up here only every once in a great while.
[/quote]

Well said.

[JimR]

I am struggling with this.  I don't know if I could follow them to the AL.  I am probably being overly dramatic about it, but it bothers me that I even have to think about it.

i feel exactly this way, and my best source told me this morning that he thinks it is all but done. makes me sick.

[juliogotay]

i feel exactly this way, and my best source told me this morning that he thinks it is all but done. makes me sick.

Shit.

[Lurch]

i feel exactly this way, and my best source told me this morning that he thinks it is all but done. makes me sick.

Damnit.  I really wanted this to just be Nolan-spin

[jbm]

If it ends up this way, fuck Crane for caving and doubly fuck MLB for being slimy extortionists.  

Could lead to a long demise of the franchise.  If interest and viewers wane, then revenues drop, making payroll increases less likely especially given the debt load.  The franchise can then turn to increasing ticket prices when the popular teams come to town.  The Yankees, BoSox and Rangers who will become more popular with the Astros demise.  Kind of like having the D-Rays in Houston.  Nolan comes out one big fucking winner in this.    

[MusicMan]

If it ends up this way, fuck Crane for caving and doubly fuck MLB for being slimy extortionists.

Yes.

Could lead to a long demise of the franchise.

No.

[Mr. Happy]

This sickens me, but I"ll still be a fan.  Fuck Nolan Ryan.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Having lived in an AL town for 7yrs with the only option being AL games on TV, I can say without question I will lose interest.  It's not that I want to turn my back on the Astros.  I simply find the AL game boring due to the lack of strategy in comparison to the NL.  The one possibility is if the Astros continue to play the NL style game, or as close to it as possible given the DH (i.e. the Angels).  

[chuck]

I don't think I'm being overly dramatic when I say that a move to the AL will seriously test my limits as a fan.

[jbm]

No.

I'll admit it is kind of chicken little, but there is certainly anecdotal evidence that interest will wane.  Even if that translates into something like 20% less interest, that is a lot.  Yeah, he might be able to make that revenue back by catering to non-Astro fans, but fuck that.  That is the Rays model.  

[BudGirl]

I'll root for the Astros but bitch about the DH while doing so.

[Ron Brand]

I won't like it much but I'll get past it. It's baseball, and it's the team I grew up with.

[sporadic]

I'll root for the Astros but bitch about the DH while doing so.

As much as I have bitched (to basically anyone that will listen) about the potential move to the AL, at the end of the day this is me as well.

[MusicMan]

I won't like it much but I'll get past it. It's baseball, and it's the team I grew up with.

+1

[Ty in Tampa]

I don't think I'm being overly dramatic when I say that a move to the AL will seriously test my limits as a fan.

That's a good way to put it. That's how I feel as well.

[BudGirl]

I don't think I'm being overly dramatic when I say that a move to the AL will seriously test my limits as a fan.

when aren't your limits tested?

[Lurch]

I'll admit it is kind of chicken little, but there is certainly anecdotal evidence that interest will wane.  Even if that translates into something like 20% less interest, that is a lot.  Yeah, he might be able to make that revenue back by catering to non-Astro fans, but fuck that.  That is the Rays model.  

Realistically, I think interest with existing fans will wane, but the on field performance was already driving that to happen anyway, particularly with the casual ones.  A new breed of casual fans will pick up where other's left off, though.  The AL teams will draw plenty of crowds, and Houston still has a very nice park that might keep them coming back.

It sucks, but they've probably played through the possible scenarios already and have come to terms with losing some fans short term.

[chuck]

It sucks, but they've probably played through the possible scenarios already and have come to terms with losing some fans short term.

I think whatever fans the team might lose in a move to the AL will be dwarfed by the number of fans they gain who are attracted by a team playing the Rangers, the Yankees, the Red Sox, hat et al.

The fat fuckers who go to the game to eat ice cream out of a plastic batting helmet don't fucking know what league the team plays in now. They're certainly not going to care what league they play in come 2013.

[subnuclear]

There is no reason an owner interested in building a quality team can't do that in Houston, no matter which league its in. Winning will draw fans, even if its not the old fans.

The late west coast night games do suck, but its not like I watch every game any way.

[Fredia]

not that i am in anyway a fan of the move, but at least lee could find a place as dh  and put his energy into batting a couple times a game

[Lurch]

I think whatever fans the team might lose in a move to the AL will be dwarfed by the number of fans they gain who are attracted by a team playing the Rangers, the Yankees, the Red Sox, hat et al.

Would be interesting to see if they could offset the loss of ticket sales from fewer cubs and braves games.

[Bench]

I'll root for the Astros but bitch about the DH while doing so.

I'll be right there rooting and bitching next to you.

[geezerdonk]

I am beginning to accept the name change from Colt .45s.

[Ron Brand]

I am beginning to accept the name change from Colt .45s.

I miss the megaphones with the popcorn inside.

[austro]

I miss the megaphones with the popcorn inside.

Why? You've got helmets with ice cream inside now. Sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show, damn it!

[MusicMan]

Why? You've got helmets with ice cream inside now. Sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show, damn it!

Excuse me, but I rather enjoy the helmet sundae.

[Ron Brand]

Why? You've got helmets with ice cream inside now. Sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show, damn it!

I could put the megaphone on my head and act like a Cub fan. The helmet with the ice cream takes my performance art to a Red Sox level and i'm not ready for that.

[Matt]

This sucks complete shit. I don't like this at all and it will actually give me more of a chance to see them play in Anaheim.  I follow the Angels already and that's only because they're not the typical AL style of team.  The Astros will obviously be my team still but I will complain about the DH.

[HudsonHawk]

I won't like it much but I'll get past it. It's baseball, and it's the team I grew up with.

The Astros are not the team I grew up with, but I'd still find it hard to leave them.  I suppose I could go back to being a Braves fan.

[Reuben]

If this really is happening (Astros move to the AL, forming two 15-team leagues, that not only sucks for us, it means year-round, happening every night interleague baseball. I think a fan of any MLB team would have to be pissed about this. AL teams build their rosters to accommodate a DH and depend on that offense; they will always be at a disadvantage playing in an NL park. NL teams build their rosters to have versatile guys who can pinch-hit but also play the field when needed; they will always be at a disadvantage playing in an AL park. It's stupid to constantly have games between teams built under different rules.

Just wait until meaningful games have to be played the final weekend of the season between, say, the Tigers and the Braves. Ridiculous.

[Matt]

If this really is happening (Astros move to the AL, forming two 15-team leagues, that not only sucks for us, it means year-round, happening every night interleague baseball. I think a fan of any MLB team would have to be pissed about this. AL teams build their rosters to accommodate a DH and depend on that offense; they will always be at a disadvantage playing in an NL park. NL teams build their rosters to have versatile guys who can pinch-hit but also play the field when needed; they will always be at a disadvantage playing in an AL park. It's stupid to constantly have games between teams built under different rules.

Just wait until meaningful games have to be played the final weekend of the season between, say, the Tigers and the Braves. Ridiculous.

I fear that this will lead to the DH being implemented in both leagues.

[The Spleen]

Would be interesting to see if they could offset the loss of ticket sales from fewer cubs and braves games.

I'm guessing the Cubs will replace the Rangers as their "natural" interleague rival.
They'll just play for the Silver Urinal Trough instead of the Silver Boot...

[austro]

I fear that this will lead to the DH being implemented in both leagues.

Of course it will. There's nothing good happening here.

[Fredia]

ummmm NO

[Reuben]

If it were coming from almost any other reporter, this could maybe be considered a good sign, but I think we all know better than that:

Jim Crane may never own the Astros, but it won’t be because he refuses to move to the American League.

Could it end up being a factor amid reports he’s being asked to consider it? Sure, it could. But it won’t be a deal breaker.

from Justice

[Matt]

If it were coming from almost any other reporter, this could maybe be considered a good sign, but I think we all know better than that:from Justice

I tried reading his column about how great it'll be in the American League.

[austro]

I tried reading his column about how great it'll be in the American League.

Doesn't matter to him: he's not watching the games anyway.

[jbm]

If it were coming from almost any other reporter, this could maybe be considered a good sign, but I think we all know better than that:from Justice

I can't seem to say Richard Justice without saying "steaming pile of crap."  Basically, in his typically swarmy, both sides of his mouth style, he said it won't be a factor if he is turned down, BUT

Could it end up being a factor amid reports he’s being asked to consider it? Sure, it could.

and

Crane would garner himself a few brownie points by volunteering to move the Astros to the American League.

and the topper

Owning an American League team may eventually look like a good alternative to not owning one at all.

So, to sum it up:  It won't be factor if he is turned down, but it could be a factor in gaining approval.  

[Ron Brand]

Around and around and around. Ergo, Pinwheel.

[Ty in Tampa]

I tried reading his column about how great it'll be in the American League.

You have my condolences.

[roadrunner]

I feel like you guys are being a little dramatic.  Yeah, being in the AL is less than ideal.  But are you really an Astros fan (or a baseball fan for that matter) because you enjoy seeing pitchers bunt and managers conduct double-switches?  Is that really the part of the game that makes you love baseball?  

I am very much pro-NL and anti-DH, but I'm not going to stop following baseball because the Astros move to the AL and I'm definitely not going to start rooting for some other NL team because the Astros have moved.  I feel like the latter is pretty much everything SnS goes against.

One last thing, do you really think watching the Astros win 80-100 in the AL is worse than watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL?  Not saying it's either/or, but at the end of the day winning is all that matters.  It can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.

[Matt]

I feel like you guys are being a little dramatic.  Yeah, being in the AL is less than ideal.  But are you really an Astros fan (or a baseball fan for that matter) because you enjoy seeing pitchers bunt and managers conduct double-switches?  Is that really the part of the game that makes you love baseball?  

I am very much pro-NL and anti-DH, but I'm not going to stop following baseball because the Astros move to the AL and I'm definitely not going to start rooting for some other NL team because the Astros have moved.  I feel like the latter is pretty much everything SnS goes against.

One last thing, do you really think watching the Astros win 80-100 in the AL is worse than watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL?  Not saying it's either/or, but at the end of the day winning is all that matters.  It can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.

It sucks complete ass but I'm not abandoning the team.

[Ty in Tampa]

I'm reserving my indignation for if it actually happens.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I feel like you guys are being a little dramatic.  Yeah, being in the AL is less than ideal.  But are you really an Astros fan (or a baseball fan for that matter) because you enjoy seeing pitchers bunt and managers conduct double-switches?  Is that really the part of the game that makes you love baseball?  

Yes.

[JimR]

I feel like you guys are being a little dramatic.  Yeah, being in the AL is less than ideal.  But are you really an Astros fan (or a baseball fan for that matter) because you enjoy seeing pitchers bunt and managers conduct double-switches?  Is that really the part of the game that makes you love baseball?  

I am very much pro-NL and anti-DH, but I'm not going to stop following baseball because the Astros move to the AL and I'm definitely not going to start rooting for some other NL team because the Astros have moved.  I feel like the latter is pretty much everything SnS goes against.

One last thing, do you really think watching the Astros win 80-100 in the AL is worse than watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL?  Not saying it's either/or, but at the end of the day winning is all that matters.  It can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.

who said anyone is giving up baseball? when i want to know what you "feel" about which league or team i follow, i'll be sure to ask you.

and, by the way, winning is NOT all that matters to me.

[geezerdonk]

As long as Millsie stays at the helm, I'm OK with a move to the AL.

[Lurch]

I feel like you guys are being a little dramatic.  Yeah, being in the AL is less than ideal.  But are you really an Astros fan (or a baseball fan for that matter) because you enjoy seeing pitchers bunt and managers conduct double-switches?  Is that really the part of the game that makes you love baseball?  

I am very much pro-NL and anti-DH, but I'm not going to stop following baseball because the Astros move to the AL and I'm definitely not going to start rooting for some other NL team because the Astros have moved.  I feel like the latter is pretty much everything SnS goes against.

One last thing, do you really think watching the Astros win 80-100 in the AL is worse than watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL?  Not saying it's either/or, but at the end of the day winning is all that matters.  It can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.

Why don't you sit the next few out.

[Ebby Calvin]

I'm reserving my indignation for if it actually happens.

+1

[drew corleone]

I resigned myself to this months ago.

My Ranger buddies were trying to tell me last week how much fun it will be to have an Astros-Rangers pennant race. Ugh.

[Ron Brand]

I resigned myself to this months ago.

My Ranger buddies were trying to tell me last week how much fun it will be to have an Astros-Rangers pennant race. Ugh.

Fuck that. Win the Silver Boot, pick your league and the loser's league for next year. That'll make it interesting.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I resigned myself to this months ago.

My Ranger buddies were trying to tell me last week how much fun it will be to have an Astros-Rangers pennant race. Ugh.

See, the problem is you have friends that are Rangers fans.  You need to find a better quality of individual before you go calling anyone friend.

On a serious note, I do as well.  I tried to explain to them that their recent success has more to do with putting a solid defense behind their average pitching than a dramatic improvement in pitching or their ever-present offensive power.  I got glassy eyed stares in response....

[MusicMan]

My Ranger buddies were trying to tell me last week how much fun it will be to have an Astros-Rangers pennant race. Ugh.

Much like ex-cons telling you to just relax and enjoy the shower?

[geezerdonk]

Much like ex-cons telling you to just relax and enjoy the shower?

Or worse - present cons.

[strosrays]

The fat fuckers who go to the game to eat ice cream out of a plastic batting helmet don't fucking know what league the team plays in now. They're certainly not going to care what league they play in come 2013.

This sums it up nicely.

The late west coast night games do suck, but its not like I watch every game any way.

I hate the idea of moving to the AL with a passion, but I think the argument that West Coast games will be a detriment generally is bogus.  The Astros were in the NL West for roughly 25 years, with SF, LA and SD (and CIN, and ATL, for some reason), so they played a fair amount of West Coast games, and East Coast games (Braves, Reds).  In fact, none of their division foes were in the Central Time Zone.  But I don't remember it being any big deal.

[Lurch]

This sums it up nicely.


I hate the idea of moving to the AL with a passion, but I think the argument that West Coast games will be a detriment generally is bogus.  The Astros were in the NL West for roughly 25 years, with SF, LA and SD (and CIN, and ATL, for some reason), so they played a fair amount of West Coast games, and East Coast games (Braves, Reds).  In fact, none of their division foes were in the Central Time Zone.  But I don't remember it being any big deal.

I don't think TV played a role in fandom to near the degree it does today.  Having a significant number of games being played past 10pm must have some impact to viewership->ad revenue->team revenue->payroll, no?

[subnuclear]

I hate the idea of moving to the AL with a passion, but I think the argument that West Coast games will be a detriment generally is bogus.  The Astros were in the NL West for roughly 25 years, with SF, LA and SD (and CIN, and ATL, for some reason), so they played a fair amount of West Coast games, and East Coast games (Braves, Reds).  In fact, none of their division foes were in the Central Time Zone.  But I don't remember it being any big deal.

The Rangers are there now and aren't doing too badly, either. I was just reacting as a fan. I have no idea how it affects the franchise revenue.

[subnuclear]

Just out of curiosity, the Astros played 28 regular season games on the west coast in 1980 versus 14 this year.

[Astroholic]

Much like ex-cons telling you to just relax and enjoy the shower?

NTTAWWT

[Lurch]

Just out of curiosity, the Astros played 28 regular season games on the west coast in 1980 versus 14 this year.

Did your source mention day or night games?  I couldn't find that.  There were also many more day games in the 80's, weren't there?  Those would have been more accessible.

[the KEG]

I don't think TV played a role in fandom to near the degree it does today.  Having a significant number of games being played past 10pm must have some impact to viewership->ad revenue->team revenue->payroll, no?

This.  I remember up until the last couple of years in the NL West, you actually had to pay extra if you wanted to have access to the home games on HSE.  Now, there were 4 games not televised this season?

[subnuclear]

Did your source mention day or night games?  I couldn't find that.  There were also many more day games in the 80's, weren't there?  Those would have been more accessible.

I couldn't find the time for specific games, but baseball-reference says Jose Cruz played 40 (out of 160) day games in 1980 where Carlos Lee has played 38 this year so far. Looks about the same.

[strosrays]

Did your source mention day or night games?  I couldn't find that.  There were also many more day games in the 80's, weren't there?  Those would have been more accessible.

Generally (and anecdotally), more day games early in the season in the northern cities.  Not so much out West.  I doubt it is very different now than then, overall.

What there were a lot more of back then was doubleheaders.  But that is a different discussion.

[JimR]

Generally (and anecdotally), more day games early in the season in the northern cities.  Not so much out West.  I doubt it is very different now than then, overall.

What there were a lot more of back then was doubleheaders.  But that is a different discussion.

man, oh man--doubleheaders! weren't they great?

[Lurch]

Comments from Drayton today

McLane said that when he and Crane made the agreement, the move the AL was not “in any way, shape or form” part of the discussion.
 
“I can’t say whether they’ve approached Jim Crane on that,” McLane said. “I’m just not in that part of the loop.”

Ugh.

[Matt]

Comments from Drayton today

Ugh.

That doesn't sound good.

[jbm]

This doesn't seem like new info to me.  It sounds like McLane is admitting to what I already assume and the press has basically reported:  there is a MLB threat to withhold approval until Crane agrees to move and that has always been the sticking point. 

In a way, if he wants to use it, I think Crane is in a stronger PR position.  Just bludgeon MLB as extortionists and wait them out.  If the press would turn on MLB instead of Crane, MLB would likely cave.   

[Reuben]

I'm still waiting for the online petition to arrive in my inbox, the one that after I click the button will forward my signature, along with hundreds of thousands of others, directly to Jim Crane, urging him not to back down to the bullies in Congress the Commissioner's Office.

[Lurch]

This doesn't seem like new info to me.  It sounds like McLane is admitting to what I already assume and the press has basically reported:  there is a MLB threat to withhold approval until Crane agrees to move and that has always been the sticking point. 

In a way, if he wants to use it, I think Crane is in a stronger PR position.  Just bludgeon MLB as extortionists and wait them out.  If the press would turn on MLB instead of Crane, MLB would likely cave.   

Don't think Crane can win a PR war given the dirt already aired

[The Spleen]

That doesn't sound good.

Nope.
If Crane gets the boot, this team is going to coast along for years with a dead hand at the wheel.
And it's going to take years for McLane to get an offer as big as the one he got from Crane.
And Zombie Drayton is not going to spend a penny more than what's required to keep the lights on and the windows clean.

What, you say a rebuilding team actually needs to sign its top draft picks? Pretty soon we'll be longing for the good old days of the Slot Jihad...

[Ron Brand]

Well, it's all public now. McTaggart has it on the Astros site.

As the Astros await approval of a transfer of ownership to a group led by Houston businessman Jim Crane, an industry source has confirmed for MLB.com that Commissioner Bud Selig has asked Crane to agree to move the Astros to the American League if he's approved as owner.

Crane signed a sales purchase agreement in May to buy the team from Drayton McLane for $680 million, but Major League Baseball has yet to approve the deal. The possible switch of leagues has kept the deal from being approved, the source said, but it could still get approval without Crane's consent to switch leagues.

McLane declined to comment Thursday, and Crane didn't respond to an e-mail seeking comment.

[Ron Brand]

Cocksucking lying bastards. I sometimes wonder why the hell I love baseball.

I hate interleague ball much, much more than I hate the DH. I don't give a shit if the AL wants to have a DH, but keeping the leagues separate made the All-Star game and the World Series that much more special.

Get the fuck off my lawn.

[Matt]

NL Central Farewell Tour 2012

[jbm]

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2011/09/08/frustrated-jim-crane-feels-offended-impatient-in-astros-sale-process/

Crane gives his side.  Says he would consider a move, if the sale price was renegotiated. Says the deal expires Nov 30 if not approved. His kid says the shit written about Crane was bullshit.  Cranes gives his side on the legal issues.

[hostros7]

NL Central Farewell Tour 2012

Assuming one wanted stay following an nl team after the Astros are fucked, who could you pull for?  I really think the Rockies are the only option for me.  I might be able to pull for the pirates.  To be clear, the Astros will still be my team, but I reserve the right to blame all problems on the current and historical oppression by the MLB and its hate crimes against the Astros

[Matt]

Assuming one wanted stay following an nl team after the Astros are fucked, who could you pull for?  I really think the Rockies are the only option for me.  I might be able to pull for the pirates.  To be clear, the Astros will still be my team, but I reserve the right to blame all problems on the current and historical oppression by the MLB and its hate crimes against the Astros

I would follow the Astros to the J-League if I had to.

[Fynn]

I would follow the Astros to the J-League if I had to.

Back before cable or satellite (I know you youngsters can't fathom that), there were usually a couple of games on the weekend on the tube.  Of course the Yankees and Red Sox were frequently on, and I actually enjoyed watching.  Problem is once you have a choice, anyone with a brain prefers NL ball.  This will take some getting used to for sure.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I'm reserving my indignation for if it actually happens.

+1

[roadrunner]

Yes.

Ok.  Ridiculous, but ok.

who said anyone is giving up baseball? when i want to know what you "feel" about which league or team i follow, i'll be sure to ask you.

and, by the way, winning is NOT all that matters to me.

If you actually think watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL is more enjoyable than watching the Astros win in the AL, then I won't tell you how to feel about your team.  Deal?
 

Why don't you sit the next few out.

Eh, you win some you lose some.

[Noe]

This sums it up nicely.


I hate the idea of moving to the AL with a passion, but I think the argument that West Coast games will be a detriment generally is bogus.  The Astros were in the NL West for roughly 25 years, with SF, LA and SD (and CIN, and ATL, for some reason), so they played a fair amount of West Coast games, and East Coast games (Braves, Reds).  In fact, none of their division foes were in the Central Time Zone.  But I don't remember it being any big deal.

When the Astros were in the NL West, the league played a balanced schedule, meaning you play everyone an equal amount of time.  When they went to three divisions in each league, they went to the unbalanced schedule, meaning you play more games within your division.  A quick look at the Rangers tells you the fact they play in the AL West means they play a lot more games in the West than they do in the East and Central.  Houston conversely plays a ton of games in the Central and the forays East and West are nice because they are only three games max for each team each season.

[Clark in Denver]

Count me as one who would have a hard time following them to the AL. Not just because I dislike AL ball, but I have a hard time justifying the money for MLB extra innings, etc. to support a league that obviously does not give a shit about Astros fans.

[Rebel Jew]

I feel like you guys are being a little dramatic.  Yeah, being in the AL is less than ideal.  But are you really an Astros fan (or a baseball fan for that matter) because you enjoy seeing pitchers bunt and managers conduct double-switches?  Is that really the part of the game that makes you love baseball?  

I am very much pro-NL and anti-DH, but I'm not going to stop following baseball because the Astros move to the AL and I'm definitely not going to start rooting for some other NL team because the Astros have moved.  I feel like the latter is pretty much everything SnS goes against.

One last thing, do you really think watching the Astros win 80-100 in the AL is worse than watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL?  Not saying it's either/or, but at the end of the day winning is all that matters.  It can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.

To me it's just as much what the move represents as it is about the dumbass league they'd be in. Moving to the AL is just one more stupid thing lambasting the game that happens to fit in with whatever untapped revenue stream Selig has uncovered this week. Astros are a 50-year National League team, but who cares right? Move them to the most unremarkable division in baseball just to up the value of what was the most unremarkable team in baseball from its relocation (and before) until last October. I will definitely care less about baseball, and I live in the same market as one of the Astros' future division foes.

[The Spleen]

And in other news... holy shit! Judah Benjamin posts on SnS!

[Limey]

Excuse me, but I rather enjoy the helmet sundae.

NTTAWWT

[roadrunner]

To me it's just as much what the move represents as it is about the dumbass league they'd be in. Moving to the AL is just one more stupid thing lambasting the game that happens to fit in with whatever untapped revenue stream Selig has uncovered this week. Astros are a 50-year National League team, but who cares right? Move them to the most unremarkable division in baseball just to up the value of what was the most unremarkable team in baseball from its relocation (and before) until last October. I will definitely care less about baseball, and I live in the same market as one of the Astros' future division foes.

Yeah, this irks me as well.

Another thing I thought of is how awful it will be when Pujols signs with the Angels and the Astros move to the AL West shortly after. 

[Jose Cruz III]

If you actually think watching the Astros lose 110+ in the NL is more enjoyable than watching the Astros win in the AL, then I won't tell you how to feel about your team.  Deal?
 

This team would struggle to win in the PCL. What makes you think moving to the AL is gonna make the Astros winners? I am not following your logic.

[Jose Cruz III]

Selig is close to moving ahead of Pujols on my GTH list.

[subnuclear]

This team would struggle to win in the PCL. What makes you think moving to the AL is gonna make the Astros winners? I am not following your logic.

If the regular-as-clock-work ass-whippings they receive from the Rangers are any indication, they might do worse in the AL.

[Ron Brand]

If the regular-as-clock-work ass-whippings they receive from the Rangers are any indication, they might do worse in the AL.

It's only because they don't have a true DH. Oh, wait...

[JackAstro]

This team would struggle to win in the PCL. What makes you think moving to the AL is gonna make the Astros winners? I am not following your logic.

1. Move to AL
2. ? ? ?
3. PROFIT VICTORY!

[MusicMan]

1. Move to AL
2. ? ? ?
3. PROFIT VICTORY!

Oh, you had it right the first time.

[austro]

Oh, you had it right the first time.

These are your Houston Pirates.

[MusicMan]

These are your Houston Pirates.

Nonsense, the Pirates have strong NL ties.

[roadrunner]

If the regular-as-clock-work ass-whippings they receive from the Rangers are any indication, they might do worse in the AL.

I figured someone wouldn't follow.  Not ragging on you, more my inability to clearly present my thoughts.  I'm just saying it can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.  If you can stick with the Astros this year, then you should be able to stick with the Astros when they move to the AL.

[Lurch]

I figured someone wouldn't follow.  Not ragging on you, more my inability to clearly present my thoughts.  I'm just saying it can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.  If you can stick with the Astros this year, then you should be able to stick with the Astros when they move to the AL.

You've been here too long to still not get this group.  It's actually quite remarkable.

[subnuclear]

I figured someone wouldn't follow.  Not ragging on you, more my inability to clearly present my thoughts.  I'm just saying it can't get much worse than what 2011 has been.  If you can stick with the Astros this year, then you should be able to stick with the Astros when they move to the AL.

I understood what you were trying to say as well as what you actually said.

My order of preferences:
1) Astros win in the NL
2) Astros not win in the NL
3) Astros change their name to the "Houston Electric Ballsacks"
4) Ed Wade signs Abad, Hall and Feliz to 10 year contracts
5) Astros put two trains in their stadium, one for each teams homeruns
6) Astros win in the AL
7) Astros lose in the AL
8 ) Astros sign Zambrano

[roadrunner]

I understood what you were trying to say as well as what you actually said.

My order of preferences:
1) Astros win in the NL
2) Astros not win in the NL
3) Astros change their name to the "Houston Electric Ballsacks"
4) Ed Wade signs Abad, Hall and Feliz to 10 year contracts
5) Astros put two trains in their stadium, one for each teams homeruns
6) Astros win in the AL
7) Astros lose in the AL
8 ) Astros sign Zambrano

Eh, I prefer the NL but a move isn't that impactful to me as a fan.  I can understand your concerns, though...

You've been here too long to still not get this group.  It's actually quite remarkable.

It's because you are bunch of old farts.  See: New Orleans bachelor party thread

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Eh, I prefer the NL but a move isn't that impactful to me as a fan.  I can understand your concerns, though...

It's because you are bunch of old farts.  See: New Orleans bachelor party thread

I think this is "Ignore" worthy... that is all.

[austro]

It's because you are bunch of old farts.  See: New Orleans bachelor party thread

If you're lucky, you'll be old one day, too. And if you're especially lucky, you'll still have a bunch of like-minded old-fart friends with whom you can still enjoy baseball.

[drew corleone]

Blow me, roadrunner.

Sub... that's my favorite OWA/SNS post since the "steps of trolling" from a few years back. Well fucking done.

[Navin R Johnson]

My wanting to stay in the NL is more about the teams in the NL vs teams in the AL then it is about "AL" style baseball. I watch a lot  of college baseball and never have I thought, damn this game would be so much better if they just forced the pitcher to hit.  I know, different level and whatnot, but the DH has never lessened my enjoyment of baseball.

But being in a new league, with a bunch of teams I could give two sh!ts about is what would piss me off the most.  I grew up watching the Astros playing and competing against the Dodgers, Giants, Braves, Mets, Cards, Phillies, Reds, Padres, etc...  Even the crap teams in the NL like the Pirates and Cubs we have history with.   Not being a part of and competing with all those teams would suck.  That would be the most disappointing thing to me.

The 2nd biggest thing is just having our franchise treated like the piss boy and being forced to do something that the team nor the fans want to do.  Getting told, you are going to the AL and you are gonna like it, pisses me off to no end.

[Ty in Tampa]

3) Astros change their name to the "Houston Electric Ballsacks"

H.E.B.!!! Get Pam to their corporate headquarters...STAT!!

[JimR]

If you're lucky, you'll be old one day, too. And if you're especially lucky, you'll still have a bunch of like-minded old-fart friends with whom you can still enjoy baseball.

oh, hell no. he's going to be 25 forever and party till the end of time.

[Astroholic]

My wanting to stay in the NL is more about the teams in the NL vs teams in the AL then it is about "AL" style baseball. I watch a lot  of college baseball and never have I thought, damn this game would be so much better if they just forced the pitcher to hit.  I know, different level and whatnot, but the DH has never lessened my enjoyment of baseball.

But being in a new league, with a bunch of teams I could give two sh!ts about is what would piss me off the most.  I grew up watching the Astros playing and competing against the Dodgers, Giants, Braves, Mets, Cards, Phillies, Reds, Padres, etc...  Even the crap teams in the NL like the Pirates and Cubs we have history with.   Not being a part of and competing with all those teams would suck.  That would be the most disappointing thing to me.

The 2nd biggest thing is just having our franchise treated like the piss boy and being forced to do something that the team nor the fans want to do.  Getting told, you are going to the AL and you are gonna like it, pisses me off to no end.

you mean like
'your playing in Milwaukee and you are going to like it'

or
'you will open the lid and you are going to like it'

or
'you will sign within slot and you are going to like it'

Fuck Bud!

[austro]

you mean like
'your playing in Milwaukee and you are going to like it'

or
'you will open the lid and you are going to like it'

or
'you will sign within slot and you are going to like it'

Fuck Bud!

I've often wondered what Bud would have done if the Astros simply hadn't opened the roof. Would he have somehow forced a delay of the start of the game? What's his leverage? A fine?

[roadrunner]

If you're lucky, you'll be old one day, too. And if you're especially lucky, you'll still have a bunch of like-minded old-fart friends with whom you can still enjoy baseball.

I'm just trying to get there.  This is all just a hazing process, right?

[jbm]

I've often wondered what Bud would have done if the Astros simply hadn't opened the roof. Would he have somehow forced a delay of the start of the game? What's his leverage? A fine?

I bet Drayton is now wondering why he was so compliant with Selig for all those years.  His buddy isn't doing him any favors now. 

[JimR]

I'm just trying to get there.  This is all just a hazing process, right?

no. it is a reaction to you and your comments. lots of new folks come in here and do very well.

[Waldo]

you mean like
'your playing in Milwaukee and you are going to like it'

or
'you will open the lid and you are going to like it'

or
'you will sign within slot and you are going to like it'

Thanks.  Now we might as well invoke the name of Walt Weiss and go out Heaven's Gate style.

[Ron Brand]

Thanks.  Now we might as well invoke the name of Walt Weiss and go out Heaven's Gate style.

Walt Fucking Weiss.

There. Begin Immolation Sequence now.

[JackAstro]

no. it is a reaction to you and your comments. lots of new folks come in here and do very well.

I miss having Clarks.

[BUWebguy]

My wanting to stay in the NL is more about the teams in the NL vs teams in the AL then it is about "AL" style baseball. I watch a lot  of college baseball and never have I thought, damn this game would be so much better if they just forced the pitcher to hit.  I know, different level and whatnot, but the DH has never lessened my enjoyment of baseball.

But being in a new league, with a bunch of teams I could give two sh!ts about is what would piss me off the most.  I grew up watching the Astros playing and competing against the Dodgers, Giants, Braves, Mets, Cards, Phillies, Reds, Padres, etc...  Even the crap teams in the NL like the Pirates and Cubs we have history with.   Not being a part of and competing with all those teams would suck.  That would be the most disappointing thing to me.

The 2nd biggest thing is just having our franchise treated like the piss boy and being forced to do something that the team nor the fans want to do.  Getting told, you are going to the AL and you are gonna like it, pisses me off to no end.

I've been trying to figure out exactly what bothered me with all this, and you just nailed it.

[Astroholic]

I miss having Clarks.

we will always have RR though.

[Lurch]

we will always have RR though.

Apparently.

[geezerdonk]

I understood what you were trying to say as well as what you actually said.

My order of preferences:
1) Astros win in the NL
2) Astros not win in the NL
3) Astros change their name to the "Houston Electric Ballsacks"
4) Ed Wade signs Abad, Hall and Feliz to 10 year contracts
5) Astros put two trains in their stadium, one for each teams homeruns
6) Astros win in the AL
7) Astros lose in the AL
8 ) Astros sign Zambrano

You left out 1a. Millsie is permanent manager.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I miss having Clarks.

I'll take one for the team.  Make me a "Clark" with my 2000+ posts.  Objectively speaking, I still post like a clark.

[Astroholic]

I'll take one for the team.  Make me a "Clark" with my 2000+ posts.  Objectively speaking, I still post like a clark.

nah Aggie is good enough for you.

[Astroholic]

I was wondering.  I know that clarks are no longer accepted because of spam.  right?  During registration couldnt the spammers be eliminated with one if those squiggly boxes with jibberish in them?

[HudsonHawk]

I was wondering.  I know that clarks are no longer accepted because of spam.  right?  During registration couldnt the spammers be eliminated with one if those squiggly boxes with jibberish in them?

Clarks are still accepted.  We haven't closed membership.  But it's difficult to find a way to allow registration while blocking the spammers.  You'd think that people have better things to do then to figure out how to bypass the squiggly jibberish box, but there are people who have dedicated their pathetic lives to it.

[Astroholic]

Clarks are still accepted.  We haven't closed membership.  But it's difficult to find a way to allow registration while blocking the spammers.  You'd think that people have better things to do then to figure out how to bypass the squiggly jibberish box, but there are people who have dedicated their pathetic lives to it.

IT geeks or something....hey wait.

[HudsonHawk]

IT geeks or something....hey wait.

I can understand wanting to be an IT geek.  I can't understand wanting to spend you life figuring out how to advertise penis pills.

[Astroholic]

I can understand wanting to be an IT geek.  I can't understand wanting to spend you life figuring out how to advertise penis pills.

I think there is money to be made in that.

[The Spleen]

Walt Fucking Weiss.

There. Begin Immolation Sequence now.

Kevin Cocksucking Brown.

*swallows double handlful of Oxycodone*
*washes pills down with fifth of Gentleman Jack*
*slips plastic bag over head*

*forever sleeps*

[Astroholic]

Kevin Cocksucking Brown.

*swallows double handlful of Oxycodone*
*washes pills down with fifth of Gentleman Jack*
*slips plastic bag over head*

*forever sleeps*

that is brutal.


Lenny Fucking Dickhead!

[JimR]

Carl Fucking Everett's AB.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Eziquiel Farging Astacio

/permanently scars own face

[Rebel Jew]

My wanting to stay in the NL is more about the teams in the NL vs teams in the AL then it is about "AL" style baseball. I watch a lot  of college baseball and never have I thought, damn this game would be so much better if they just forced the pitcher to hit.  I know, different level and whatnot, but the DH has never lessened my enjoyment of baseball.

But being in a new league, with a bunch of teams I could give two sh!ts about is what would piss me off the most.  I grew up watching the Astros playing and competing against the Dodgers, Giants, Braves, Mets, Cards, Phillies, Reds, Padres, etc...  Even the crap teams in the NL like the Pirates and Cubs we have history with.   Not being a part of and competing with all those teams would suck.  That would be the most disappointing thing to me.

The 2nd biggest thing is just having our franchise treated like the piss boy and being forced to do something that the team nor the fans want to do.  Getting told, you are going to the AL and you are gonna like it, pisses me off to no end.

It pisses me off that the Astros are being molded into the idiot stepbrother of the freaking Rangers of all franchises.

[astrosfan76]

I can understand wanting to be an IT geek.  I can't understand wanting to spend you life figuring out how to advertise penis pills.

What do you have against the working stiffs?

[MusicMan]

Carl Fucking Everett's AB.

Nolan Ryan.  8th inning.

[Ron Brand]

What do you have against the working stiffs?

Proles.

[HudsonHawk]

I think there is money to be made in that.

There must be.  Just like there must be money to be made posing at a Nigerian prince who needs help securing his millions.  It boggles the mind that there is, but it has to be working.

[Lurch]

There must be.  Just like there must be money to be made posing at a Nigerian prince who needs help securing his millions.  It boggles the mind that there is, but it has to be working.

Only takes one.

[hostros7]

Kevin Cocksucking Brown.


*washes pills down with fifth of Gentleman Jack*

At least you kept it classy. 

Brown v. Randy was the best of the best of that time.  Leyritz and Hitchcock really kick me in the dick. 

[homer]

I understood what you were trying to say as well as what you actually said.

My order of preferences:
1) Astros win in the NL
2) Astros not win in the NL
3) Astros change their name to the "Houston Electric Ballsacks"
4) Ed Wade signs Abad, Hall and Feliz to 10 year contracts
5) Astros put two trains in their stadium, one for each teams homeruns
6) Astros win in the AL
7) Astros lose in the AL
8 ) Astros sign Zambrano

I read this, and then the last page or so of the thread. Then I went to lunch and a meeting... and I am still trying to imagine what the mascot would look like for your 2012 Houston Electric Ballsacks.

[EasTexAstro]

I read this, and then the last page or so of the thread. Then I went to lunch and a meeting... and I am still trying to imagine what the mascot would look like for your 2012 Houston Electric Ballsacks.

Jackastro...please don't read this.

[JimR]

Nolan Ryan.  8th inning.

Fred Fucking Brocklander

top that one

[The Spleen]

Eziquiel Farging Astacio

/permanently scars own face

Jeff Youhavetobefuckingshittingme Calhoun
When they dynamite the Dome, Deshaies will still be waiting in the bullpen...

/plucks out an eye

[ValpoCory]

not that i am in anyway a fan of the move, but at least lee could find a place as dh  and put his energy into batting a couple times a game

Carlos Lee on the Astros in 2013?  I just threw up in my mouth.

[ValpoCory]

i feel exactly this way, and my best source told me this morning that he thinks it is all but done. makes me sick.

Quick.  Somebody call Ken Starr.

[ValpoCory]

Fred Fucking Brocklander

top that one

Jeff Bleeping Nelson

[cougar]

Eziquiel Farging Astacio

/permanently scars own face

Why would you want to look like him?

[Jose Cruz III]

There must be.  Just like there must be money to be made posing at a Nigerian prince who needs help securing his millions.  It boggles the mind that there is, but it has to be working.

Please don't tell me that you're saying I am not gonna get 3 million bucks.

[Jose Cruz III]

Fred Fucking Brocklander

top that one

Bud thebulliesflickedmywinkiewheniwasaboy Selig

[subnuclear]

I read this, and then the last page or so of the thread. Then I went to lunch and a meeting... and I am still trying to imagine what the mascot would look like for your 2012 Houston Electric Ballsacks.

Pretty sure it would just be a guy in a ballsack suit carrying a lightning bolt. I'm not sure how that would impact attendance.

[homer]

Pretty sure it would just be a guy in a ballsack suit carrying a lightning bolt. I'm not sure how that would impact attendance.

Yeah, but what would a ballsack suit look like?

[Noe]

Nolan Ryan.  8th inning.

Greg "Ewww" Gross!

[Reuben]

Yeah, but what would a ballsack suit look like?

It would look like a ballsack. With legs. And maybe a baseball cap.

ETA: in other words, not too different from this.

[EasTexAstro]

It would look like a ballsack. With legs. And maybe a baseball cap.

ETA: in other words, not too different from this.

Why do you think anyone would click that link?

[Waldo]

Quick.  Somebody call Ken Starr.

The hell good would that do?  Since Selig's office is in NYC, you should call the NYC City Council Speaker's office.

[Mr. Happy]

I miss having Clarks.

Refresh my memory. Why don't we take on Clarks anymore?

[strosrays]

Refresh my memory. Why don't we take on Clarks anymore?

Open registration = spammers.

It is too bad.  This place is definitely less fun without new blood/fresh meat.

[Hornstros]

It would look like a ballsack. With legs. And maybe a baseball cap.

and a Doug Mansolino-esque moustache

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

It would look like a ballsack. With legs. And maybe a baseball cap.

ETA: in other words, not too different from this.

That kind of reminds me of the Rhode Island School of Design Nad's mascot, Scrotie.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Mike "The Motherfucker" Torrez.

[chuck]

I admit to having been confronted with some disturbing Russian mistress porn in my googling but I did find this:

http://jasonkrugman.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/testyphoto.jpg

It's art, if you couldn't tell for some reason.

"Basically, it is a pair of 2 foot wide testicles hanging from the ceiling in a 12 foot tall ball sack. ‘Testy Touch’ is sensitive to both temperature and touch. It responds by recoiling towards the ceiling… much as real testes do! Hopefully, the testicles will also vibrate at your touch… and there may be some audio involved as well.

It is inspired by the real interactivity of the autonomic nervous system."

So we've got the mascot bit sorted.

[Mr. Happy]

Open registration = spammers.

It is too bad.  This place is definitely less fun without new blood/fresh meat.

So we're a closed society now? How do Coach and Mark get through the day?

[Mr. Happy]

Fred Fucking Brocklander

top that one

Can't. I hated that fucker.

[Fredia]

you have me and i am trying to convince my youngest daughter to sign on

[MRaup]

So we're a closed society now? How do Coach and Mark get through the day?

is s

I just inwardly focus my hatred. 2 posts down from yours is a good start.

[Jose Cruz III]

you have me and i am trying to convince my youngest daughter to sign on

Please tell us she didn't home school.

[Mr. Happy]

is s

I just inwardly focus my hatred. 2 posts down from yours is a good start.

You could make some really snide and offensive comments and make my day.

[chuck]

Please tell us she didn't home school.

http://tinyurl.com/6j757r4

[austro]

http://tinyurl.com/6j757r4

That's pretty sweet.

[Jose Cruz III]

http://tinyurl.com/6j757r4

Could be........

[Limey]

My wanting to stay in the NL is more about the teams in the NL vs teams in the AL then it is about "AL" style baseball. I watch a lot  of college baseball and never have I thought, damn this game would be so much better if they just forced the pitcher to hit.  I know, different level and whatnot, but the DH has never lessened my enjoyment of baseball.

I've said it in here many a time before: it was the strategy and nuance of baseball that first attracted me to it, having had less than zero interest in it before I first moved to the US.  But the strategy and nuance is far less in the AL than in the NL because of the 800lb gorilla - the DH (who is customarily an actual 800lb gorilla).

A move to the AL will seriously undermine my interest in baseball in Houston, which will seriously undermine my interest in baseball period.

[Limey]

I was wondering.  I know that clarks are no longer accepted because of spam.  right?  During registration couldnt the spammers be eliminated with one if those squiggly boxes with jibberish in them?

A Fredia post?

[Limey]

Pretty sure it would just be a guy in a ballsack suit carrying a lightning bolt. I'm not sure how that would impact attendance.

Free trucknuts to the first 10,000 through the gate.

[Limey]

In case anyone missed Selig's / MLB's latest pronouncement, they denied permission for the Mets to wear caps commemorating 9/11 first responders on Sunday night.

I'm not sure even Sepp Blatter is this tone deaf.

[MusicMan]

In case anyone missed Selig's / MLB's latest pronouncement, they denied permission for the Mets to wear caps commemorating 9/11 first responders on Sunday night.

I'm not sure even Sepp Blatter is this tone deaf.

Joe Torre fell quite a bit in my opinion by stating it was simply a matter of keeping things consistent.

[Mr. Happy]

Joe Torre fell quite a bit in my opinion by stating it was simply a matter of keeping things consistent.

I'm pretty well convinced that Joe Torre is a tone deaf moron.

[Andyzipp]

I'm pretty well convinced that Joe Torre is a tone deaf moron.

Torre was a shitty manager until he got to New York.  Then he was a genius when he had Williams, Jeter, Pettitte, et al. to manage.  Then he goes to LA, where he takes two talented teams to the playoffs, and then retires.

He learned to be more than shitty over the years, but he also had the benefit of a shit-ton of good players.

[HudsonHawk]

Torre was a shitty manager until he got to New York.  Then he was a genius when he had Williams, Jeter, Pettitte, et al. to manage.  Then he goes to LA, where he takes two talented teams to the playoffs, and then retires.

He learned to be more than shitty over the years, but he also had the benefit of a shit-ton of good players.

I don't think he was a shitty manager, he was like most managers...when he had talent, he won, when he had crap, he lost. 

[Andyzipp]

I don't think he was a shitty manager, he was like most managers...when he had talent, he won, when he had crap, he lost. 

Well, then I retract my opinion.  Sorry for the bother.

[HudsonHawk]

Well, then I retract my opinion.  Sorry for the bother.

I forgot I wasn't allowed to offer an opinion.

[JimR]

I forgot I wasn't allowed to offer an opinion.

if you boys don't play nice, you're going to have to go to your rooms.

[HudsonHawk]

if you boys don't play nice, you're going to have to go to your rooms.

He started it!!

[Andyzipp]

I forgot I wasn't allowed to offer an opinion.

I have yielded the floor to you, sir. 

[Reuben]

I missed this Mark Berman article from last week on the sale... he says

"commissioner Bud Selig has asked Houston businessman Jim Crane to agree to move the Houston Astros to the American League
...
MLB sources told FOX 26 the fact that Crane has yet to agree to the request has kept him from being approved as owner."

but then later caveats,

"MLB sources also told FOX 26 it is believed Crane can still get MLB's approval to buy the Astros franchise without consenting to move to the American League.

However, the sources said the issue of shifting the Astros franchise would be addressed again at a later date."

There's also a new article by Maury Brown where he does some weird-ass speculating that... actually I'm not even sure what he's saying, something about an "exit strategy" or "an out" for Crane. This guy clearly doesn't think much of Crane.

[Navin R Johnson]

Did Maury Brown have an aunt who worked for Eagle Logistics or something?  That guys seems to have it out for Crane.

[jbm]

"MLB sources also told FOX 26 it is believed Crane can still get MLB's approval to buy the Astros franchise without consenting to move to the American League.

However, the sources said the issue of shifting the Astros franchise would be addressed again at a later date."

I am not sure how to interpret this.  If a move requires the consent of the owner, and he doesn't consent now, why would he change in the future?  

If this is supposed to imply that MLB will provide incentives at a later date in order to get him to consent, then I expect a very rough road for Crane in Houston.  On top of those who already view him as cheap and a racist scumbag, you will add those who despise him for not sticking up for the loyal fans.

I've concluded that Brown is just a simple hack parroting what some group within MLB wants him to write.  He needs his MLB sources for his bread and butter, and is unwilling to question or challenge them. 

[Reuben]

I forget, is there some reason why they can't just move the Brewers, who, you know, not only don't have a long National League tradition, but in fact, DO have a long American League tradition, back to the AL?

[austro]

I forget, is there some reason why they can't just move the Brewers, who, you know, not only don't have a long National League tradition, but in fact, DO have a long American League tradition, back to the AL?

It would inconvenience Selig and/or his daughter.

[Andyzipp]

I am not sure how to interpret this.  If a move requires the consent of the owner, and he doesn't consent now, why would he change in the future? 

If this is supposed to imply that MLB will provide incentives at a later date in order to get him to consent, then I expect a very rough road for Crane in Houston.  On top of those who already view him as cheap and a racist scumbag, you will add those who despise him for not sticking up for the loyal fans.

I've concluded that Brown is just a simple hack parroting what some group within MLB wants him to write.  He needs his MLB sources for his bread and butter, and is unwilling to question or challenge them. 

Taken at face value, MLB knows it's not going to get another $680MM bid for the Astros, and while they are absolutely trying to get what they want, they're engaging in a game of chicken.  If Crane starts making noise about withdrawing from the process, that particular demand goes away.

[Reuben]

It would inconvenience Selig and/or his daughter.

I'm sure that must be a big part of it, but I'm not even quite sure why they would care, except for some of the same reasons the Astros would- more West Coast games would equal lower TV revenue. And I'm very curious what their public reasons are for not wanting to move the Brewers back, but it seems like no one in the media is questioning it.

I mean, am I missing something? They seem like the blatantly obvious candidate to move- true, they are slightly more East geographically than Houston, but they're both in the Central time zone., so it wouldn't really be any shittier for them than for the Astros. So it comes down to history, in my opinion.

[Matt]

I forget, is there some reason why they can't just move the Brewers, who, you know, not only don't have a long National League tradition, but in fact, DO have a long American League tradition, back to the AL?

Or the bigger question, why are the Diamondbacks not the team to go? They're newer and the owner has said he would move if asked to.  Makes way more sense.  The Astros are unfortunately a shitty team right now so they get less of a say in this maybe? Who the fuck knows how Selig thinks.

[roadrunner]

I'm sure that must be a big part of it, but I'm not even quite sure why they would care, except for some of the same reasons the Astros would- more West Coast games would equal lower TV revenue. And I'm very curious what their public reasons are for not wanting to move the Brewers back, but it seems like no one in the media is questioning it.

I mean, am I missing something? They seem like the blatantly obvious candidate to move- true, they are slightly more East geographically than Houston, but they're both in the Central time zone., so it wouldn't really be any shittier for them than for the Astros. So it comes down to history, in my opinion.

Selig loves the geographic Cubs "rivalry".

[subnuclear]

Houston is close to one AL West Team, whereas Milwaukee is close to none. Maybe move Milwaukee in the AL central and move KC out West?

[jbm]

I think it is a mistake to apply logic to any of the move issues.  It is simply about power and leverage, with a few justifications (which never pass logical scrutiny) added for public consumption.  MLB has leverage over the Astros right now, otherwise I doubt this idea would have ever been seriously floated.

[Bench]

Selig loves the geographic Cubs "rivalry".

Exactly.  It's pitched as more Brewers-Cubs games and more Rangers-Astros games means more $$$ for more teams.

[austro]

Houston is close to one AL West Team, whereas Milwaukee is close to none. Maybe move Milwaukee in the AL central and move KC out West?

Move Milwaukee and AZ (Milwaukee to the AL Central and AZ to the AL West). Let the AL have 16 teams for a while. I expect the 15/15 thing to wind up with all kinds of unanticipated problems.

[Bench]

I expect the 15/15 thing to wind up with all kinds of unanticipated problems.

This.  And frankly, I have no idea why there is a perceived disadvantage to 14/16.

[Bench]

  If Crane starts making noise about withdrawing from the process, that particular demand goes away.

Doesn't the sale automatically terminate sometime in November?

[Reuben]

Doesn't the sale automatically terminate sometime in November?

Nov 30 is what I saw Crane mentioned, although like most things I'm sure that is negotiable.

[Bench]

Nov 30 is what I saw Crane mentioned, although like most things I'm sure that is negotiable.

Sure, but Crane doesn't have to threaten withdrawal, he can just point to Nov. 30th.

[jbm]

This.  And frankly, I have no idea why there is a perceived disadvantage to 14/16.

I agree, if there actually was a disadvantage, MLB wouldn't have to extort a franchise to move, many would come forward willingly.

[Ron Brand]

I think it is a mistake to apply logic to any of the move issues.  It is simply about power and leverage, with a few justifications (which never pass logical scrutiny) added for public consumption.  MLB has leverage over the Astros right now, otherwise I doubt this idea would have ever been seriously floated.

I think that we're losing sight of the fact that Selig works for the owners. There must be a significant amount of support for this particular move of the Astros to the AL West and not the Diamondbacks or Brewers, meaning probably that Ryan has been successful in lobbying or trading something for support of this, perhaps coupled with getting something in return from MLBPA in upcoming negotiations.

[jbm]

I think that we're losing sight of the fact that Selig works for the owners. There must be a significant amount of support for this particular move of the Astros to the AL West and not the Diamondbacks or Brewers, meaning probably that Ryan has been successful in lobbying or trading something for support of this, perhaps coupled with getting something in return from MLBPA in upcoming negotiations.

Don't know if this is right or not, but I suspect it is close.  I get the impression that there are at least two distinct camps within MLB.  I assume there is Nolan, who is using this opportunity to weaken a regional rival.  He has some support from those who see this as an opportunity to solve the realignment uissue.  These people are willing to play chicken, but will probably blink.  There is probably others who simply think "accept the offer you dumbshits, it increases my asset.  I don't care that much about Nolan's issues or realignment."

At any rate, telling the story of who is in what camp might be pretty interesting.  Maybe someday, it will be reported.

[HudsonHawk]

I think that we're losing sight of the fact that Selig works for the owners. There must be a significant amount of support for this particular move of the Astros to the AL West and not the Diamondbacks or Brewers, meaning probably that Ryan has been successful in lobbying or trading something for support of this, perhaps coupled with getting something in return from MLBPA in upcoming negotiations.

I hate to say this fellas, but I think you're looking at the DH in the National League in the not too distant future.

[Lurch]

This.  And frankly, I have no idea why there is a perceived disadvantage to 14/16.

Math?

[Ebby Calvin]

Just speaking out of my ass here, but I think the main reasons that pushed the Astros to the forefront of the AL switch (other than 6 teams in the NL Central/Nolan) are:

1) New owner who might be willing to move leagues, and
2) The Astros suck right now, so the perceived nationwide response would be, "meh, ok."

If the reports are true, and Crane is refusing to switch - even at the possible expense of his approval as the new owner, then I'm happy to have him here.  As long as he doesn't cave.

[Jacksonian]

I hate to say this fellas, but I think you're looking at the DH in the National League in the not too distant future.

+1

I don't know what the owners are going to want in return from the union for this, but it has to be sizable.

[HudsonHawk]

+1

I don't know what the owners are going to want in return from the union for this, but it has to be sizable.

Some sort of draft salary structure and/or salary cap is what I'm thinking. But the dissolution of separate leagues is going to happen.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Some sort of draft salary structure and/or salary cap is what I'm thinking. But the dissolution of separate leagues is going to happen.

This is a thought that I have been unable to avoid.  I don't like it, but agree it is the most likely outcome.  Chicks dig the long ball and therefore the DH...

[Matt]

This is a thought that I have been unable to avoid.  I don't like it, but agree it is the most likely outcome.  Chicks dig the long ball and therefore the DH...

Yep, you can tell they're laying the groundwork for the DH in the NL.  That's why I wasn't all that upset about the league switch after I thought about it. Eventually in the next 5 years or so everyone will be using the DH.

[jbm]

Some sort of draft salary structure and/or salary cap is what I'm thinking. But the dissolution of separate leagues is going to happen.

Dissolution might well cause a problem for MLB.  There are those who value fairness, or profess to at least and dissolution of the leagues gives them ammo.  Every honest person recognizes that an unbalanced schedule is unfair, but that concern is presently countered by a rebuttal which says "sure it is, but it's inevitable given the league/divisional structure."  If MLB abolishes that structure, then they no longer have a coherent rebuttal, coherent to the fairness crowd at least.  Changing to a balanced schedule means fewer Yankees/Red Sox games.  That is probably viewed as a problem to MLB.

[austro]

That is probably viewed as a problem to MLB.

Maybe not to MLB, but definitely to NESN and YES.

[hostros7]

Yep, you can tell they're laying the groundwork for the DH in the NL.  That's why I wasn't all that upset about the league switch after I thought about it. Eventually in the next 5 years or so everyone will be using the DH.

I'll miss the usual opponents as much as the DH.  The Astros franchise doesn't have much history with the Angels, Mariners, A's, etc.  When down 6-2 in the 7th on a random July day at New Busch, it's nice to be able to think to yourself, "at least we tore your old stadium down MFers."

[HudsonHawk]

This is a thought that I have been unable to avoid.  I don't like it, but agree it is the most likely outcome.  Chicks dig the long ball and therefore the DH...

The Players' Association also loves the DH.  It's going to happen.

[HudsonHawk]

Dissolution might well cause a problem for MLB.  There are those who value fairness, or profess to at least and dissolution of the leagues gives them ammo.  Every honest person recognizes that an unbalanced schedule is unfair, but that concern is presently countered by a rebuttal which says "sure it is, but it's inevitable given the league/divisional structure."  If MLB abolishes that structure, then they no longer have a coherent rebuttal, coherent to the fairness crowd at least.  Changing to a balanced schedule means fewer Yankees/Red Sox games.  That is probably viewed as a problem to MLB.

There is no reason having a balanced schedule will be a deal breaker.  There will be pissing and moaning to be sure, but a balanced schedule is a very minor issue in the big scheme of things.  No one complains about how unfair the NFL is because it has an unbalanced schedule.

[jbm]

There is no reason having a balanced schedule will be a deal breaker.  There will be pissing and moaning to be sure, but a balanced schedule is a very minor issue in the big scheme of things.  No one complains about how unfair the NFL is because it has an unbalanced schedule.

I suspect you are probably right, and wouldn't bet against this outcome.  However, I don't think it is certain.  While I totally agree with your last sentence, the idea of unfairness has been used effectively in the whole Astros to AL talk.  It has intrinsic power that a lot of writers will latch onto.  There might also be some owners (Tor, TB, and Balt) who might push for it.

Once there is no clear distinction between the leagues, or no real leagues at all, a balanced schedule, or partially balanced schedule ala the NBA follows pretty easily. 

[Reuben]

Are we really talking about no leagues or divisions here? I have to think that would be very, very detrimental to fostering rivalries. In that scenario, with 8 or even 10 playoff spots simply going to the 8 or 10 best records, two or three teams would be virtual shoo-ins every year, and the handful of teams fighting it out for the last few spots would probably be completely different each year... that just sounds like a really... un-baseball-like, soulless free-for-all to me.

[austro]

two or three teams would be virtual shoo-ins every year, and the handful of teams fighting it out for the last few spots would probably be completely different each year

Is that really much different from where we are today?

[Limey]

Are we really talking about no leagues or divisions here? I have to think that would be very, very detrimental to fostering rivalries. In that scenario, with 8 or even 10 playoff spots simply going to the 8 or 10 best records, two or three teams would be virtual shoo-ins every year, and the handful of teams fighting it out for the last few spots would probably be completely different each year... that just sounds like a really... un-baseball-like, soulless free-for-all to me.

See BA, N.

[jbm]

I don't know what HH envisions.  I am envisioning something much like what we have today: two leagues, three disvisions within each league, four or five playoff teams from each league and a world series.  However, if there is no DH, it would open the possibility of more geographically aligned divisions, maybe an east west thing like the NBA.  

[Reuben]

See BA, N.

...[stares blankly]... NBA? What's that?

[HudsonHawk]

Are we really talking about no leagues or divisions here? I have to think that would be very, very detrimental to fostering rivalries. In that scenario, with 8 or even 10 playoff spots simply going to the 8 or 10 best records, two or three teams would be virtual shoo-ins every year, and the handful of teams fighting it out for the last few spots would probably be completely different each year... that just sounds like a really... un-baseball-like, soulless free-for-all to me.

There would still be "leagues" in name, more like conferences, and certainly divisions.  The playoff structure would remain basically what it is now.  There just wouldn't be this separation of the leagues during the regular season.

[Reuben]

There would still be "leagues" in name, more like conferences, and certainly divisions.  The playoff structure would remain basically what it is now.  There just wouldn't be this separation of the leagues during the regular season.

Hmm, okay, I misunderstood what you were referring to; I know I've read speculation somewhere that introducing 2 more Wild Card teams, MLB would just have the 5 best records in each league make the playoffs, and to me the only thing worse than that would be doing away with leagues altogether and just have the best 10 ten teams out of 30 make the playoffs. Ugh. I do hope you're wrong about implementing the DH in the NL. I think there would be a hugh fan/writer backlash against that. NL pitchers would probably be pissed too.

[HudsonHawk]

I think there would be a hugh fan/writer backlash against that. NL pitchers would probably be pissed too.

Privately they might, but the players' union wants the DH.  Really bad.  Pitchers would fall in line with the union from a public standpoint.

[Ty in Tampa]

See BA, N.

This is exactly what I was thinking. They're really fucking with the game and there will be consequences.

[Limey]

This is exactly what I was thinking. They're really fucking with the game and there will be consequences.

Playoff games in the north east...sans roof...in December.

[Fredia]

sounds like how football used to be played...barbaric

[drew corleone]

I hope the Houston Electric Ballsacks do well in the AL West.

[Jose Cruz III]

I hope the Houston Electric Ballsacks do well in the AL West.

According to the Inquirer, Ballsacks always do well in the west. Regardless which league you play for.

[Navin R Johnson]

Some new news.

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5426:why-this-week-could-be-critical-for-jim-crane-and-the-astros&catid=26:editorials&Itemid=39

But, it’s possible that something is in the works this week. Sports 610 Radio in Houston is reporting that Drayton McLane is calling a press conference this week, and that news regarding the sale will be happening and (get this), McLane is lowering the price of the sale. A high placed source at the league said they were unaware of such activity happening.

It begs the question, why would they hold such a press conference? Unless the prospectus has gone to the owners and the vote is scheduled for this week, the league would be reminding the Astros as to why it’s never smart to call a press conference unless it’s after the sale has been approved by the league’s 29 other owners. Lowering the sale price (along with Crane saying he’s getting impatient that’s it’s taking so long), certainly isn’t going to endear Crane and suddenly make the owners have a change of heart on the sale transaction.

[Reuben]

Good God, someone tell that hack Brown to find another photo of Crane.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Good God, someone tell that hack Brown to find another photo of Crane.

Being a reporter is haaarrrrrrd, you guys!  You have do words AND pictures.  And I'm all like, no, I just want to say what I think.

[jbm]

Sounds like a death knell to the NL as Crane and McLane have renegotiated down to cover the move to the AL.  Maybe there is some other reason for the lower price, but I can't even imagine one. 

[Ebby Calvin]

Sounds like a death knell to the NL as Crane and McLane have renegotiated down to cover the move to the AL.  Maybe there is some other reason for the lower price, but I can't even imagine one. 

That's what I took from the article, too.  I hope I'm wrong.  History proves that is often the case.

[Reuben]

Justice blog from yesterday says that Drayton is holding a press conference Thurs to unveil the Astros' 50th anniversary logo, so perhaps that is what Brown was referring to? The link he posted to 610 didn't work for me.

[hostros7]

That's what I took from the article, too.  I hope I'm wrong.  History proves that is often the case.

Well, you also probably could look at what has gone on in the world since the initial agreement was reached.  While MLB comp transactions haven't probably indicated a downward revision for price, a variety of other factors could have warranted the change.  If I had to guess, my thought is that he had a relatively aggressive ask on leverage as a percentage of total capitalization and that banks have pared back risk tolerance over the last month or so.  He and his partners didn't want to increase the size of their equity check, so Drayton was left with two options: accept a lower offer or have the deal fall apart.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

banks have pared back risk tolerance over the last month or so. 

It was a dramatic shift from 1% to 0% risk tolerance....

[jbm]

Nice to hear an alternative theory.  So, the driver in this scenario is MLB demanding less debt and the only way Crane can meet that demand is a lower price?  Or is it the lenders driving the change?  Can they change their terms in mid stream like that?  

If it is driven by MLB, presumably McLane understands that MLB won't approve a bid with this much debt and is willing to renegotiate down.  Otherwise, I don't see why McLane cares how much debt is behind that check he receives.  I also assume McLane would not look favorably on a buyer who claims that he needs to renegotiate due to pressure from his lenders.  

[Lurch]

If the price is going down, I'd assume Drayton is keeping an equity stake.

[HudsonHawk]

Nice to hear an alternative theory.  So, the driver in this scenario is MLB demanding less debt and the only way Crane can meet that demand is a lower price?  Or is it the lenders driving the change?  Can they change their terms in mid stream like that?  

I'm assuming it's like any other deal...contingent upon a) financing and b) approval of the sale from the other owners.  If either of those things don't work, they find a new stream.

[Bench]

If the price is going down, I'd assume Drayton is keeping an equity stake.

I thought he was doing so already.  Maybe that stake is getting larger?

[jbm]

I'm assuming it's like any other deal...contingent upon a) financing and b) approval of the sale from the other owners.  If either of those things don't work, they find a new stream.

I'm assuming a lender says "I will finance X amount at X rate.  This offer is good until X date."  If X date hasn't been reached, I assume there is some law which prevents the lenders from backing out.  

I understand that things change if the deal isn't approved, but I assume that cannot be determined until X date, the date at which the agreement between the lender and Crane expires, which should presumably be the Nov date at which the offer to McLane expires.  Maybe the date between the lenders and Crane is different than date betwen Crane and McLane, but that would be pretty damn sloppy.  

[hostros7]

I'm assuming a lender says "I will finance X amount at X rate.  This offer is good until X date."  If X date hasn't been reached, I assume there is some law which prevents the lenders from backing out.  

I understand that things change if the deal isn't approved, but I assume that cannot be determined until X date, the date at which the agreement between the lender and Crane expires, which should presumably be the Nov date at which the offer to McLane expires.  Maybe the date between the lenders and Crane is different than date betwen Crane and McLane, but that would be pretty damn sloppy.  

Your assumption is probably incorrect.  The credit docs very likely give the lenders outs.  No way a lender would commit to terms without the ability to renegotiate/reprice the deal if either a) the deal changes between acquirer and seller b) the performance of the business changes c) unexpected items are brought to light in diligence or d) the market/world changes.  Given that the deal was agreed to in principal and was only waiting on approval, my guess is D, but it's only a guess.  The AL theory is also plausible. 

It's all well and good to say I'll lend you X amount at Y times total leverage at Z rate, but if credit markets trade down and index yields rise a 100 or 200 bps before the deal closes, lenders don't want to be on the hook for out of market terms.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm assuming a lender says "I will finance X amount at X rate.  This offer is good until X date."  If X date hasn't been reached, I assume there is some law which prevents the lenders from backing out.  

Don't know about a baseball team, but lenders financing any other purchase can pretty much back out at any time, for any reason (aside from equal opportunity kinds of things), prior to actually writing the check. 

I understand that things change if the deal isn't approved, but I assume that cannot be determined until X date, the date at which the agreement between the lender and Crane expires, which should presumably be the Nov date at which the offer to McLane expires.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think that's the case at all. 

 Maybe the date between the lenders and Crane is different than date betwen Crane and McLane, but that would be pretty damn sloppy.  

I wouldn't have it any other way, if I were Crane.  I'd want an answer on the financing long before my purchase contract expired.  That way if the financing with one lender fell through, I'd still have the opportunity to look for another before cancelling the deal.

[jbm]

I wouldn't have it any other way, if I were Crane.  I'd want an answer on the financing long before my purchase contract expired.  That way if the financing with one lender fell through, I'd still have the opportunity to look for another before cancelling the deal.

Well, based on your comments and Hostros, my assumptions on the practice of lending are incorrect.  Of course, I never bought anything more than a house, and never assumed the bank could renege before the deal was closed.   

Although the reasons listed by Hostros make perfect sense from a lender's persepective, it also complicates deals. 

[HudsonHawk]

Well, based on your comments and Hostros, my assumptions on the practice of lending are incorrect.  Of course, I never bought anything more than a house, and never assumed the bank could renege before the deal was closed. 

Even a home lender can back out based on an appraisal, a survey, or any other type of due diligence.  They can just get cold feet and back out.  

Although the reasons listed by Hostros make perfect sense from a lender's persepective, it also complicates deals. 

$600MM deals require lots of lawyerin'.

[Guinness]

rise a 100 or 200 bps before the deal closes, lenders don't want to be on the hook

Who knew banks put so much stock in baud rate...?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

They can just get cold feet and back out.  

Technically they can.  If the borrower is doing everything asked of them, the lender can face litigation for backing out unless they provide an objective explanation.  At least when it comes to home lending.  

[BizidyDizidy]

Two good rules of thumb: deal isn't done until money moves, and anyone can sue anyone for anything.

[sporadic]

Two good rules of thumb: deal isn't done until money moves, and anyone can sue anyone for anything.

two truer statements were never typed.

[Navin R Johnson]

Just curious how much stock folks put in the "playoffs quiet period" aspect of the article.  It does seem that Bud doesn't like anything distracting people from the playoffs, meaning that the earliest this deal gets completed is probably the 1st couple weeks of November.

[jbm]

It may well be true, but it makes little sense to me.  The story of the sale barely draws interest in Houston, so I doubt many people outside Houston give a shit.  It certainly won't divert attention from the postseason.  Just roll it on the scroll at the bottom of the TV.

[EasTexAstro]

Just roll it on the scroll at the bottom of the TV.

So, is Fox doing the playoffs? They might all kinds of neat graphics to flash up on the screen.

[austro]

So, is Fox doing the playoffs? They might all kinds of neat graphics to flash up on the screen.

Fox and TBS, I think.

[Fredia]

i like purdy lights yeaa

[HudsonHawk]

Technically they can.  If the borrower is doing everything asked of them, the lender can face litigation for backing out unless they provide an objective explanation.  At least when it comes to home lending.  

Sure, they can come up with some explanation.  But it doesn't have to be much, and it doesn't have to be based on much of anything other than "hmmmm...we're not sure".  This happened to me last month.

[Limey]

Sure, they can come up with some explanation.  But it doesn't have to be much, and it doesn't have to be based on much of anything other than "hmmmm...we're not sure".  This happened to me last month.

Are finance deals like this considered an offer, or an "invitation to treat"?  If the latter, they're basically asking the customer to consider a deal and, if they like it, make the bank and offer at those terms.  Like buying something from a store: the price tag is an invitation to treat, and when you take the item to the register you make an offer to buy.  Because the seller hasn't made an offer to sell, they are perfectly within their rights to tell you to go do one.

[BizidyDizidy]

Are finance deals like this considered an offer, or an "invitation to treat"?  If the latter, they're basically asking the customer to consider a deal and, if they like it, make the bank and offer at those terms.  Like buying something from a store: the price tag is an invitation to treat, and when you take the item to the register you make an offer to buy.  Because the seller hasn't made an offer to sell, they are perfectly within their rights to tell you to go do one.

They can be done any of a multitude of different ways. There's no one answer.

[Señor Stan]

So, is Fox doing the playoffs? They might all kinds of neat graphics to flash up on the screen.

Fox can have Scooter the talking baseball explain the financing of the deal.

[EasTexAstro]

Fox can have Scooter the talking baseball explain the financing of the deal.

I wonder if Scooter is how Pence learned about sliders. The information may not have been helpful to him, but if I pictured Scooters face every time a slider was thrown I might want to start hacking at it, too.

[HudsonHawk]

Are finance deals like this considered an offer, or an "invitation to treat"?  If the latter, they're basically asking the customer to consider a deal and, if they like it, make the bank and offer at those terms.  Like buying something from a store: the price tag is an invitation to treat, and when you take the item to the register you make an offer to buy.  Because the seller hasn't made an offer to sell, they are perfectly within their rights to tell you to go do one.

In my particular case, I approached the bank about a loan.  We worked through the application/process, and everything was cool until 3 days before closing.  They called and said they were now getting nervous about the appraisal.  Apparently the value of the property was too high for what I was paying for it.  I said, yeah, the seller was in a bind and was willing to forgo some equity for a quick sale.  The bank said no one gets a deal like that.  Something ain't right.  And simply backed out.

[Lurch]

In my particular case, I approached the bank about a loan.  We worked through the application/process, and everything was cool until 3 days before closing.  They called and said they were now getting nervous about the appraisal.  Apparently the value of the property was too high for what I was paying for it.  I said, yeah, the seller was in a bind and was willing to forgo some equity for a quick sale.  The bank said no one gets a deal like that.  Something ain't right.  And simply backed out.

Ugh!  On the bright side, you should be able to lock at an even more amazing rate now

By the way, I really like the zillow broker finder if you're looking again.  It made it simple to find that one guy who works on volume.

[hostros7]

In my particular case, I approached the bank about a loan.  We worked through the application/process, and everything was cool until 3 days before closing.  They called and said they were now getting nervous about the appraisal.  Apparently the value of the property was too high for what I was paying for it.  I said, yeah, the seller was in a bind and was willing to forgo some equity for a quick sale.  The bank said no one gets a deal like that.  Something ain't right.  And simply backed out.

Terrible. You should have explained that the situation they were facing at that moment was actually the opposite of what got them all ween-hurt in the first place with verbal fists of fury.  Actually, you probably did.

[HudsonHawk]

Ugh!  On the bright side, you should be able to lock at an even more amazing rate now

Oh, I just called another bank and closed on the loan in about 10 days.

On a side note...if you're ever puchasing rural property, go with an ag bank, one who's used to dealing with properties that are not in residential subdivisions.

[HudsonHawk]

Terrible. You should have explained that the situation they were facing at that moment was actually the opposite of what got them all ween-hurt in the first place with verbal fists of fury.  Actually, you probably did.

Actually, after explaining, and having the loan officer understand and agree, I asked at what point common sense entered the decision.  He said it never does.

[Lurch]

Actually, after explaining, and having the loan officer understand and agree, I asked at what point common sense entered the decision.  He said it never does.

As we learned, banks don't think about mortgages at an individual item level, but rather in large buckets of similar loans.  Logic occasionally loses when that happens.  I see it where I work all of the time.  Policies that I'm certain make sense and are justifiably appropriate 4 layers above me are completely flawed at the execution level with some specific implementations.  95% of the time, they are fine, but the other 5% make me look stupid to my team and/or customers.  Being with a small and flexible org again certainly looks appealing at times.

[HudsonHawk]

As we learned, banks don't think about mortgages at an individual item level, but rather in large buckets of similar loans.  Logic occasionally loses when that happens.  I see it where I work all of the time.  Policies that I'm certain make sense and are justifiably appropriate 4 layers above me are completely flawed at the execution level with some specific implementations.  95% of the time, they are fine, but the other 5% make me look stupid to my team and/or customers.  Being with a small and flexible org again certainly looks appealing at times.

I didn't realize at the time how rigid the process was, irrespective of how idiotic it might be to shoehorn a particular case into it.  That's the beauty of the ag bank.  They function essestially as a co-op, end-user owned, so they exist to provide a service, not make a commercial profit.  Also because they fund and underwrite their own lowns rather than selling MBS's to Fannie and Freddie, they can make rational, case-by-case decisions.  And quickly, I might add.

[Waldo]

On a side note...if you're ever puchasing rural property, go with an ag bank, one who's used to dealing with properties that are not in residential subdivisions.

Huh.  I figured you were strictly an HOA kind of guy.

[HudsonHawk]

Huh.  I figured you were strictly an HOA kind of guy.

No HOA at th HH Ranch. No one tells me when to shred the pasture, and I can shoot guns all night if I want.  It's in a dry county though, and that sucks. 

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

No HOA at th HH Ranch. No one tells me when to shred the pasture, and I can shoot guns all night if I want.  It's in a dry county though, and that sucks. 

Where? I want steaks, cigars, and Glenmorangie Nectar D'Or, ready when I get there.

[HudsonHawk]

Where? I want steaks, cigars, and Glenmorangie Nectar D'Or, ready when I get there.

I've been drinking bourbon there, mainly because I think I'm supposed to. 

[MusicMan]

I've been drinking bourbon there, mainly because I think I'm supposed to. 

And because bourbon makes everything better.

[HudsonHawk]

And because bourbon makes everything better.

Well, I'll say this...half of a bottle of Woodford Reserve helps me sleep well.

[jbm]

Not really Crane related, but Greg Lucas has an article saying Drayton has heard little from fans regarding the move to the AL.  Lucas also said Drayton is now listing advantages of the move to the AL, though Lucas did not repeat them. 

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/09/25/11/McLane-not-hearing-opposition-to-AL-swit/landing_astros.html?blockID=569042&feedID=6702

If the move to the AL rubs you wrong, letting the Astros know can't hurt. 

[chuck]

Not really Crane related, but Greg Lucas has an article saying Drayton has heard little from fans regarding the move to the AL.

I thought Baptists weren't supposed to lie.

[Reuben]

Not really Crane related, but Greg Lucas has an article saying Drayton has heard little from fans regarding the move to the AL.  Lucas also said Drayton is now listing advantages of the move to the AL, though Lucas did not repeat them. 

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/09/25/11/McLane-not-hearing-opposition-to-AL-swit/landing_astros.html?blockID=569042&feedID=6702

If the move to the AL rubs you wrong, letting the Astros know can't hurt. 

Write or call the Astros:

Mailing Address:
501 Crawford St.
Houston, TX 77002

Phone Number:
(713) 259-8000

#

The Office of the Commissioner of Baseball
    Allan H. (Bud) Selig, Commissioner
    Address: 245 Park Avenue, 31st Floor
    City: New York, State: NY Zip Code: 10167
    Phone: 212-931-7800
    Fax: 212-949-5654

Anybody have better contact info? Or maybe something for Crane?

[jbm]

I thought Baptists weren't supposed to lie.

Well, I am wondering if this is a precursor to Drayton agreeing to the move, thereby taking the issue off the table.  You know "I never heard from anyone, it would create a great rivalry with the Rangers, fans would get to see the Yankees and Red Sox regularly, and most importantly, it might help me get that goddamn check."  Of course, he would never say goddamn. 

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Of course, he would never say goddamn. 

Not on sunday or out loud...

[Lefty]

This does not sound promising at all.

"I appreciate you sharing these notes and please pass on my thanks to all of those to took time to express their concerns. They are obviously terrific fans of the Houston Astros and that means a great deal to me. Regretfully, this is beyond my control or the control of Jim Crane and the team. If it does happen, change is a big part of life and we all have to make adjustments." Drayton

Comment posted to this article:  http://www.foxsportshouston.com/09/25/11/McLane-not-hearing-opposition-to-AL-swit/landing_astros.html?blockID=569042&feedID=6702

[MusicMan]

Furk.  It's obviously done.

[austro]

Why does Bud hate Houston so much?

[Limey]

Why does Bud hate Houston so much?

See Miller, Wade.

[Ty in Tampa]

"If it does happen, change is a big part of life and we all have to make adjustments." Drayton

How comfortably condescending.

[Limey]

How comfortably condescending.

I'm starting to wonder if this season was a scheme to make the move easier, ripped straight from the plot of "Major League".

[Matt]

I'm starting to wonder if this season was a scheme to make the move easier, ripped straight from the plot of "Major League".

The Astros have been undressing a cardboard cutout of Drayton all season?

Gross.

[jbm]

Regretfully, this is beyond my control or the control of Jim Crane and the team.

Not true, it requires the consent of the owner.  Somehow, I doubt it will reported that way by the Houston media though.  Everyone has to get along after all.

What Drayton really said: "MLB is pressuring Jim and I.  Jim wants a team.  I want my money.  You fuckers, I mean fans, don't matter much in comparison to my money or Jim having a team.  So deal with it." 

[Jose Cruz III]

I'm starting to wonder if this season was a scheme to make the move easier, ripped straight from the plot of "Major League".

But the Astros traded Willie Mays Hayes. That didn't happen in the movie.

"Bout 90 feet"

[The Spleen]

The Astros have been undressing a cardboard cutout of Drayton all season?

Gross.

Actually, their reward for each win was a chance to cover up a small patch of Drayton's naked horrors.
Unfortunately they barely won enough games to hide his saggy old man balls...

[Bench]

Actually, their reward for each win was a chance to cover up a small patch of Drayton's naked horrors.
Unfortunately they barely won enough games to hide his saggy old man balls...

If they're anything like his ears...

[ValpoCory]

Actually, their reward for each win was a chance to cover up a small patch of Drayton's naked horrors.
Unfortunately they barely won enough games to hide his saggy old man balls...

On Wednesday, the Astros have a chance at being 50 games under .500 for the first time in the 50 seasons of the franchise.  This is their 4th shot at that infamy in the last 11 days; the Astros obviously winning each of those previous "opportunities".

[JackAstro]

If they're anything like his ears...

Sorry, obligatory.

[Rebel Jew]

Sorry, obligatory.

If I was gay that would have ruined me from being gay

[hostros7]

Not to bring this back on topic, but here are a few things that I've learned over the last few weeks from some good sources:

1) Crane seems to be a polarizing guy, but there are some real concerns about his character (not in terms of MLB view, which I know nothing about, just people in general)
2) He may gut the payroll in the short term but plans to increase it significantly over a 3-5 year horizon
3) If his bid falls apart, there are other groups in waiting

Anonymous internet rumors!

[MusicMan]

If I was gay that would have ruined me from being gay

"You're kind of ruining being gay for me." - Mitchell

[jbm]

Not to bring this back on topic, but here are a few things that I've learned over the last few weeks from some good sources:

1) Crane seems to be a polarizing guy, but there are some real concerns about his character (not in terms of MLB view, which I know nothing about, just people in general)

Could you expand? 

[geezerdonk]

The new mortal sin - Thou Shalt Not Polarize.

[hostros7]

Could you expand? 

Just that some people like him but some don't think he's a very good guy.  While that can be inferred from a lot of the press on him out in the public now, I'm not going to put any rumors out on a public message board.  My point was just that, if a good amount of people feel that way, there may be some reason to believe that other owners might as well. 

I know that it's more of a dollars and cents game and many owners will like a nice valuation comp for their franchise, but MLB ownership is also a club that decides who gets to join and who doesn't.

[Reuben]

Not to bring this back on topic, but here are a few things that I've learned over the last few weeks from some good sources:

1) Crane seems to be a polarizing guy, but there are some real concerns about his character (not in terms of MLB view, which I know nothing about, just people in general)
2) He may gut the payroll in the short term but plans to increase it significantly over a 3-5 year horizon
3) If his bid falls apart, there are other groups in waiting

Anonymous internet rumors!

Interesting. Who are the other groups? Friedman Sr., who else?

[OregonStrosFan]

Levine with an update. LINK

[Guinness]

The switch has the potential to change the value of the team, Crane said, hence the possibility of compensation. The television network slated to start showing baseball in 2013 in partnership with the Rockets and Comcast would be airing far more 9 p.m. starts with a move to the AL West

Wasn't it established that the 9pm starts would be a wash?

[MusicMan]

Wasn't it established that the 9pm starts would be a wash?

Not sure what kind of math would get you there.

[Reuben]

Not sure what kind of math would get you there.

That's Milwaukee Math, son.

[Guinness]

Not sure what kind of math would get you there.

My bad, I misrembered this quote from further back:

the Astros played 28 regular season games on the west coast in 1980 versus 14 this year. [/quote[

[ValpoCory]

Wasn't it established that the 9pm starts would be a wash?

AL teams have higher payrolls, in part due to paying an expensive DH.

[SaltyParker]

AL teams have higher payrolls, in part due to paying an expensive DH.

$9M avg per team higher payroll in AL
DH avg salary is $8M

[EasTexAstro]

$9M avg per team higher payroll in AL
DH avg salary is $8M

Would Carlos Lee's salary bring those numbers together?

How much would Koby Clemens make?

[Uncle Charlie]

Regarding average salaries, isn't some of that due to the spead of markets (ie Yankees)?

[Lurch]

Tweet 5 mins ago:

Peter Gammons

Houston ownership change expected to go through in mid-November, w/ AL move.

[Ebby Calvin]

Tweet 5 mins ago:

Fuck.  Not that I didn't see it coming, but fuck.

[Ron Brand]

Fucking chickenshit sons of bitches.

[Ron Brand]

Crane is going to have to be one charming motherfucking pig to overcome this crass betrayal.

[hostros7]

Crane is going to have to be one charming motherfucking pig to overcome this crass betrayal.

I'm not happy about it either, but let's not call it a "betrayal."  Crane got steamrolled by an ownership group that used episodes from his professional history as leverage to serve its own intersest.  His options were probably 1) own a baseball team in the AL or 2) not own a baseball team.  Also, Crane is just a figurehead for a larger investor group.  He may have wanted to resist the move to the AL more than his other shareholders. 

But, I agree, fuck this.  I really don't remember a single instance of another MLB team taking it in the keister like the Astros have, and this team has bent over several times.

[austro]

New T-shirt: "My team went to the American League and all I got was fucked."

[David in Jackson]

The awful state of the current club, the Crane decision (with all his problems and the time wasted addressing them), and possible move to the AL, all lie at the feet of the Grocer and are his legacy.  In any job (or anything you do, really) you're supposed the leave the campsite better than you found it.  Drayton's score on this scale is a F-minus.

[hostros7]

In any job (or anything you do, really) you're supposed the leave the campsite better than you found it.  Drayton's score on this scale is a F-minus.

Drayton's wallet, which is all that matters to him, score this deal an A+

[Ron Brand]

I'm not happy about it either, but let's not call it a "betrayal."  Crane got steamrolled by an ownership group that used episodes from his professional history as leverage to serve its own intersest.  His options were probably 1) own a baseball team in the AL or 2) not own a baseball team.  Also, Crane is just a figurehead for a larger investor group.  He may have wanted to resist the move to the AL more than his other shareholders. 

But, I agree, fuck this.  I really don't remember a single instance of another MLB team taking it in the keister like the Astros have, and this team has bent over several times.

Fuck that. It feels like a betrayal to me. I don't mean that Crane is solely responsible, I don't like that he went along with it instead of fighting it out but the betrayal I speak of is that one by MLB and that cocksucker piece of shit commissioner.

[Ron Brand]

The awful state of the current club, the Crane decision (with all his problems and the time wasted addressing them), and possible move to the AL, all lie at the feet of the Grocer and are his legacy.  In any job (or anything you do, really) you're supposed the leave the campsite better than you found it.  Drayton's score on this scale is a F-minus.

This. This right here.

[Fredia]

goinh  to be interesting when interleague games have more of a draw than regular ones do

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Fuck that. It feels like a betrayal to me. I don't mean that Crane is solely responsible, I don't like that he went along with it instead of fighting it out but the betrayal I speak of is that one by MLB and that cocksucker piece of shit commissioner.

When I responded previously, it was before I fully grasped the idea that with this AL/NL league balancing they would have to have constant interleague play.  As a result, the probability of having ONE rule on the DH grew significantly.  I mean, Bud is asshole enough to force one team to play at a disadvantage every day.  However, I don't see how that would be more popular than making both leagues use a DH.  After all, chicks dig the long ball... and dudes dig chicks. 
Anyway, with that thought in mind, I don't see how it's a betrayal at the Astros level, as much as it is a betrayal by  Selig to the entire game. 

I will try to follow the Astros if they moved leagues but I have never been able to stay interested in the AL style of baseball.  I can't commit to anything else at this point. 

[Clark in Denver]

I have an NL ballpark within three miles of my house. Guess it's time to cancel Extra Innings, turn off the TV, and go watch more baseball in person.

I will miss JD and Brownie though.

[austro]

I have an NL ballpark within three miles of my house.

It may still be a NL ballpark, but within three years it will also be a DH ballpark.

[BatGirl]

i like that greg lucas tells it straight
because, ultimately, i need to know who i'm hating on when this thing goes through:

"The MLB Constitution clearly states that MLB cannot move a team from one league or division to another without consent from the club AND a three-quarters vote from the owners.
 
In other words nothing is out of the hands of either Mr. Crane or Mr. McLane as has been implied earlier."

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/10/11/11/You-Dont-Have-to-Move-if-you-dont-Approv/landing.html?blockID=579686

[MusicMan]

you're supposed the leave the campsite better than you found it.  Drayton's score on this scale is a F-minus.

Rebuttal: MMPUS.

[juliogotay]

When I responded previously, it was before I fully grasped the idea that with this AL/NL league balancing they would have to have constant interleague play.  As a result, the probability of having ONE rule on the DH grew significantly.  I mean, Bud is asshole enough to force one team to play at a disadvantage every day.  However, I don't see how that would be more popular than making both leagues use a DH.  After all, chicks dig the long ball... and dudes dig chicks. 
Anyway, with that thought in mind, I don't see how it's a betrayal at the Astros level, as much as it is a betrayal by  Selig to the entire game. 

I will try to follow the Astros if they moved leagues but I have never been able to stay interested in the AL style of baseball.  I can't commit to anything else at this point. 

I fear that my interest in MLB will soon match my interest in the NFL which is next-to-nothing.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I fear that my interest in MLB will soon match my interest in the NFL NBA which is next-to-nothing.

FIFM

As I said, I will try...

ETA:  I have always considered myself an Astros fan first, baseball fan second.  If I had to put my attitude in words, I would say that a move to the AL for the Astros would reverse that order.  Adding, a man without a team doesn't spend money on tickets or licensed fan paraphernalia.  I have no doubt that Selig understands that.  But I suspect he does not think I am the norm, as an Astros fan.  And he's probably right.

[Waldo]

ultimately, i need to know who i'm hating on when this thing goes through:

Clearly the answer is "all of the above".

[Ty in Tampa]

If that many people are willing to fuck with the game so fundamentally and haphazardly then I most likely will leave MLB behind. I still consider interleague play a blight and only recently have I felt the wildcard has made it's place. I'll never be able to deal with full-time interleague play and the DH in both leagues.

[Limey]

The awful state of the current club, the Crane decision (with all his problems and the time wasted addressing them), and possible move to the AL, all lie at the feet of the Grocer and are his legacy.  In any job (or anything you do, really) you're supposed the leave the campsite better than you found it.  Drayton's score on this scale is a F-minus.

+100

[BatGirl]

gammons refudiated:

http://www.click2houston.com/astros/29462599/detail.html

[Limey]

Rebuttal: MMPUS.

...which we* paid for, and he only got by blackmailing the city with a move to Chattanooga or somewhere equally unfeasible.

* The "visitor" stadium tax, which is paid by anyone staying in a hotel or renting a car, and could have been used for something else (light rail, for example).


I really like MMPUS, but it's not an investment made by Drayton, yet he gets to reap the benefits of the increased franchise value because of it.  So he's F-minus, plus $250mm.

[jbm]

i like that greg lucas tells it straight
because, ultimately, i need to know who i'm hating on when this thing goes through:

"The MLB Constitution clearly states that MLB cannot move a team from one league or division to another without consent from the club AND a three-quarters vote from the owners.
 
In other words nothing is out of the hands of either Mr. Crane or Mr. McLane as has been implied earlier."

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/10/11/11/You-Dont-Have-to-Move-if-you-dont-Approv/landing.html?blockID=579686

Nice to see a reporter actually inform the public.  Those jokes at the chronicle either say nothing at all, or tout the move as something preferrable.  Still is befuddling that not one asshole from that paper has written an article critical of MLB's demands/inquiries in those whole sordid affair. 

[Reuben]

Has any owner ever gone from so good to so fucking terrible in such a short period of time? Harry Frazee perhaps? Goddammit, Drayton.

I wonder what the "compensation" is that Crane is getting from MLB. And whether it will have any actual benefit for the ballclub, or just his own pockets.

[WakePhil]

And whether it will have any actual benefit for the ballclub, or just his own pockets.

If not money to Crane, what could they give the ball club? One get out of salary jail free card (hi Carlos!).

[Limey]

Has any owner ever gone from so good to so fucking terrible in such a short period of time? Harry Frazee perhaps? Goddammit, Drayton.

I wonder what the "compensation" is that Crane is getting from MLB. And whether it will have any actual benefit for the ballclub, or just his own pockets.

There is no benefit to moving to the AL, so the other owners must be promising to offset some or all of the lost attendance resulting from the switch.  The problem for Crane is that no one went this year, the team - and therefore the attendance - will be no better next year, so if no one goes in 2013 there won't be much of a drop for which Crane need be compensated.

I have a strong sense that Crane's ego is writing checks the Astros' body of fans cannot cash.  The team will suck balls in the AL, have no money to improve the team and be consigned to battle the Royals for the worst franchise in baseball year-in, year-out.

To paraphrase Etta Place:

I'm 46, and I'm single, and an insurance broker, and that's the bottom of the pit. And the only excitement I've known is here with me now. I'll go with you, and I won't whine, and I'll watch your play, and I'll support you when you're sucking, and I'll do anything you ask of me except one thing. I won't watch you die. I'll miss that scene if you don't mind.

[HudsonHawk]

I mean, Bud is asshole enough to force one team to play at a disadvantage every day.  However, I don't see how that would be more popular than making both leagues use a DH.  After all, chicks dig the long ball...

No one is forced to use the DH. Both leagues are allowed to, but the NL collectively chooses not to. The NL can elect to use it at any time and any team in the AL can choose not to.

[ValpoCory]

gammons refudiated:

http://www.click2houston.com/astros/29462599/detail.html

First of all, nice Sarah Palin reset.  Second of all, that article says "Representative: Report Of Move To AL Premature" and then fails to mention the part of the Gammons report that mentions a move to the AL.   News2Houston FAIL.

[Ty in Tampa]

First of all, nice Sarah Palin reset.  Second of all, that article says "Representative: Report Of Move To AL Premature" and then fails to mention the part of the Gammons report that mentions a move to the AL.   News2Houston FAIL.

"A representative for the Crane ownership group told KPRC Local 2 Wednesday that no contact or discussions have been made with Crane or his group yet on the potential option to join the American League."

[OregonStrosFan]

I have a strong sense that Crane's ego is writing checks the Astros' body of fans cannot cash.

I dunno if I could place a move to the AL on 'Crane's ego'. Crane is caught between a rock and a hard place. I won't fault him if he chooses to own an AL team rather than owning no team at all.  I also won't fault him if the sale price is lowered $100M to make it happen.  In fact, the more the sale price is lowered, the better I will feel about it as it'll be the closest thing to a 'pound of flesh' Astros fans will get from either Drayton or Bud from this fiasco. 

I hope Crane fights like hell to resist a move to the AL.  In a way, I see this as a big game of chicken between Bud and Crane.  IMO, I seriously doubt that Bud and the MLB owners would refuse to accept Crane and his $680M purchase of the worst team in baseball, I really don't [as the offer bolsters the value of every other team in the league].  Though I've zero real insight into what is going on, my gut says that if Crane holds firm, he'd ultimately win.  Just my opinion though.  Would I blame him if he decided to veer at the last second?  I don't think I could... 

That's my $0.02 anyway...

[Limey]

I dunno if I could place a move to the AL on 'Crane's ego'. Crane is caught between a rock and a hard place. I won't fault him if he chooses to own an AL team rather than owning no team at all.  I also won't fault him if the sale price is lowered $100M to make it happen.  In fact, the more the sale price is lowered, the better I will feel about it as it'll be the closest thing to a 'pound of flesh' Astros fans will get from either Drayton or Bud from this fiasco.  

I hope Crane fights like hell to resist a move to the AL.  In a way, I see this as a big game of chicken between Bud and Crane.  IMO, I seriously doubt that Bud and the MLB owners would refuse to accept Crane and his $680M purchase of the worst team in baseball, I really don't [as the offer bolsters the value of every other team in the league].  Though I've zero real insight into what is going on, my gut says that if Crane holds firm, he'd ultimately win.  Just my opinion though.  Would I blame him if he decided to veer at the last second?  I don't think I could...  

That's my $0.02 anyway...

My comment was aimed at what I perceive to be his desire to buy the team, which seems to be strong enough that to do so he'd accept a move to the AL that would kill attendance and TV revenue.  If he wanted to buy a functioning franchise, and not just a franchise, he'd tell Selig and the other owners to stick the AL up their collective shitters.

[Andyzipp]

My comment was aimed at what I perceive to be his desire to buy the team, which seems to be strong enough that to do so he'd accept a move to the AL that would kill attendance and TV revenue.  If he wanted to buy a functioning franchise, and not just a franchise, he'd tell Selig and the other owners to stick the AL up their collective shitters.

But it's not going to kill attendance.  Losing kills attendance.  The general population of ticket buyers in Houston are going to show up when/if they're winning.  And there are plenty of bandwagon Rangers, Red Sox, and Yankees fans to make up for losing the Cardinals and Cubs fans during a regular season.

[Limey]

But it's not going to kill attendance.  Losing kills attendance.  The general population of ticket buyers in Houston are going to show up when/if they're winning.  And there are plenty of bandwagon Rangers, Red Sox, and Yankees fans to make up for losing the Cardinals and Cubs fans during a regular season.

This may be true, but this also makes it worse (for me).  There is no way I am going to set foot in MMPUS when any of the Rangers, Yankees or Red Sox are in town.  So he's buying the team on the strength of the draw of odious visiting teams, rather than a home team fan base who will show up to watch a competent home team.

If that's the case, fuck him too.

[Andyzipp]

This may be true, but this also makes it worse (for me).  There is no way I am going to set foot in MMPUS when any of the Rangers, Yankees or Red Sox are in town.  So he's buying the team on the strength of the draw of odious visiting teams, rather than a home team fan base who will show up to watch a competent home team.

If that's the case, fuck him too.

I do appreciate the outrage, but if you rounded up all the "passionate" Astros fans into a room, you'd need slightly more room than your average Luby's could provide.  MOST people who attend the games in this city do not follow the home team closely (or at all, depending on your current cynicism level).  If the Astros win, they will continue to take their company's tickets and gorge on nachos whilst watching the Angels or Tigers or Royals or Twins.

[jbm]

First of all, nice Sarah Palin reset.  Second of all, that article says "Representative: Report Of Move To AL Premature" and then fails to mention the part of the Gammons report that mentions a move to the AL.   News2Houston FAIL.

That article calls the move to the AL as the "potential option" and the wording implies that the characterization comes from Crane's group.

The reporting on this whole thing is so weak.  Fans are left to fill the void of information that should be filled by the media.  You would think a reporter might want to try to clarify the discrepencies, or at least explain why they exist.  Or maybe just ask a simple followup question.  For example: "what do you mean by calling it a potential option?"

[OregonStrosFan]

So he's buying the team on the strength of the draw of odious visiting teams, rather than a home team fan base who will show up to watch a competent home team.

IMO he'd be buying the team because he can, and this'll be his only shot, not because of the strength of AL draws.  Maybe I should fault him for wanting a team bad enough to ultimately succumb to Bud's evil plan, but I can't.  If I were in his position, I hope I'd have the balls to call Bud's bluff... but... not sure that I could knowing this'd be my last opportunity to buy an MLB team...

[ValpoCory]

"A representative for the Crane ownership group told KPRC Local 2 Wednesday that no contact or discussions have been made with Crane or his group yet on the potential option to join the American League."

I wasn't saying the article didn't "refudiate" the report.  I was saying the article didn't include the actual report it referenced in the article's subtitle, i.e. the "w/ AL move" that Peter Gammons tweeted.  They included the part of Gammons' tweet that everybody knew already, but left out the most important 3 words.  As jbm said, fans are left to fill in the information void left by articles like the news2houston article.

[Ty in Tampa]

I wasn't saying the article didn't "refudiate" the report.  I was saying the article didn't include the actual report it referenced in the article's subtitle, i.e. the "w/ AL move" that Peter Gammons tweeted.  They included the part of Gammons' tweet that everybody knew already, but left out the most important 3 words.  As jbm said, fans are left to fill in the information void left by articles like the news2houston article.

Gotcha. The "report" was a tweet, hardly any journalistic meat to that either.

[Lurch]

Gotcha. The "report" was a tweet, hardly any journalistic meat to that either.

Gammons works for MLB now (MLB Network and MLB.com), so keep that in mind.  Seems unlikly he's reporting rogue.

[Reuben]

I do appreciate the outrage, but if you rounded up all the "passionate" Astros fans into a room, you'd need slightly more room than your average Luby's could provide.  MOST people who attend the games in this city do not follow the home team closely (or at all, depending on your current cynicism level).  If the Astros win, they will continue to take their company's tickets and gorge on nachos whilst watching the Angels or Tigers or Royals or Twins.

I have to say I have my doubts about the Astros winning any time soon if they move to the AL West. The Rangers are turning into a baseball and marketing juggernaut, the Angels are consistently among the top payrolls (and presumably will hire a better GM, who won't do things like trade for Vernon Wells), and the A's and Mariners are always a threat to have a great year, with the M's also having the potential to spend big.

Once they're in the same division, casual fans in Texas will no longer be able to be both Rangers and Astros fans, they'll have to choose, and I think we all know who the casual fan would choose at this juncture. That's what pisses me off about this whole "establish the rivalry" thing. Where else do you have teams in the same state that are in the same division? The Padres, Dodgers, and Giants, but that's about it. The Dodgers clearly have the economic advantage over the Padres, and San Fran is 8 hours away, so they don't really count. Lots and lots of geographically close teams do just fine being in separate leagues, where they can share some of the same fanbase.

[Ty in Tampa]

Gammons works for MLB now (MLB Network and MLB.com), so keep that in mind.  Seems unlikly he's reporting rogue.

I'd still like to see an article, with sources and shit. This 'expected' crap is just that.

[MusicMan]

the Angels are consistently among the top payrolls (and presumably will hire a better GM, who won't do things like trade for Vernon Wells),

Apparently the word is that Scioscia is the one really calling the shots there.

[austro]

I have to say I have my doubts about the Astros winning any time soon if they move to the AL West. The Rangers are turning into a baseball and marketing juggernaut, the Angels are consistently among the top payrolls (and presumably will hire a better GM, who won't do things like trade for Vernon Wells), and the A's and Mariners are always a threat to have a great year, with the M's also having the potential to spend big.

Once they're in the same division, casual fans in Texas will no longer be able to be both Rangers and Astros fans, they'll have to choose, and I think we all know who the casual fan would choose at this juncture. That's what pisses me off about this whole "establish the rivalry" thing. Where else do you have teams in the same state that are in the same division? The Padres, Dodgers, and Giants, but that's about it. The Dodgers clearly have the economic advantage over the Padres, and San Fran is 8 hours away, so they don't really count. Lots and lots of geographically close teams do just fine being in separate leagues, where they can share some of the same fanbase.

Stop trying to apply logic.

[Reuben]

Just found this blog/twitter account via a McTaggart twitter. Pretty funny, if nothing else. I like his stab at a 32-team, 4-divisions-per-league alignment.

http://keephoustoninnl.wordpress.com/

[BatGirl]

I wasn't saying the article didn't "refudiate" the report.  I was saying the article didn't include the actual report it referenced in the article's subtitle, i.e. the "w/ AL move" that Peter Gammons tweeted.  They included the part of Gammons' tweet that everybody knew already, but left out the most important 3 words.  As jbm said, fans are left to fill in the information void left by articles like the news2houston article.

yes, i know - a poorly written and articulated blurb by news2houston
(hence the "refudiate" reference,  but i suspect you got that)
i don't make excuses for the quality of my links
but it was local and relevant, so there you go

this whole thing is downright diabolical if you ask me
fuck selig
fuck him in his ear

[Fredia]

how big is his ear? or how small the

[JackAstro]

...Where else do you have teams in the same state that are in the same division? The Padres, Dodgers, and Giants, but that's about it. The Dodgers clearly have the economic advantage over the Padres, and San Fran is 8 hours away, so they don't really count. Lots and lots of geographically close teams do just fine being in separate leagues, where they can share some of the same fanbase.

Also the A's and Angels. Not the same division, but Pittsburgh and Philly are both in the NL. I guess NY would be considered geographically close to two teams in its division, with Baltimore and Boston within 4 hours. Detroit and Cleveland are closer than that.

I don't want the AL move at all, but I think the argument against has to be different from this. There are too many teams already in the same division or league that are within a reasonable drive of each other to say that the Astros would be getting uniquely screwed by it.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Also the A's and Angels. Not the same division, but Pittsburgh and Philly are both in the NL. I guess NY would be considered geographically close to two teams in its division, with Baltimore and Boston within 4 hours. Detroit and Cleveland are closer than that.

I don't want the AL move at all, but I think the argument against has to be different from this. There are too many teams already in the same division or league that are within a reasonable drive of each other to say that the Astros would be getting uniquely screwed by it.

So, Houston and Dallas are roughly 240 miles apart. 

In comparison, Oakland and Anaheim are 400 miles apart.   

Pittsburgh and Philly are closer, at 300 miles, but also in different divisions.  Population density is a question I cannot answer. 

The NYC to Baltimore is only 188 miles.  NYC to Boston is 220 miles.  Boston to Baltimore is 400 miles.  All in the AL East.  The key factor here is population density.  Needless to say, Baltimore plays at a financial disadvantage while also having a fuck-wad of an owner. 

What do I make of all this?  Eh... not much, other than we're still not comparing apples to apples, as the saying goes.     

[Limey]

Pittsburgh and Philly are closer, at 300 miles, but also in different divisions.  Population density is a question I cannot answer.    

I think the population is pretty dense in both places.

[MusicMan]

Chicago to Milwaukee?

[Limey]

Chicago to Milwaukee?

[Selig] I hear it's closer to Houston than Chicago. [/Selig]

[Fredia]

where does he get his maps

[Limey]

where does he get his maps

WikiFredia

[subnuclear]

When the Expos became the Nationals, it did steal a significant chunk of Orioles fans; however, MLB managed not to care all that much. I doubt that will be a factor in this.

[HudsonHawk]

WikiFredia

Holy Fucking Shit!  It's been damn near three years since we've had a new entry to the Glossary.  This is TZ HOF (if there were still such a thing) material.

[Ty in Tampa]

Holy Fucking Shit!  It's been damn near three years since we've had a new entry to the Glossary.  This is TZ HOF (if there were still such a thing) material.

+∞

[The Spleen]

WikiFredia

So fukcing nonematd

[JackAstro]

Chicago to Milwaukee?

This is a good point. Someone should move one of them to the AL.

[MusicMan]

This is a good point. Someone should move one of them to the AL.

Just think of how the long-simmering Cubs-White Sox rivalry could be built up!

[Reuben]

I don't want the AL move at all, but I think the argument against has to be different from this. There are too many teams already in the same division or league that are within a reasonable drive of each other to say that the Astros would be getting uniquely screwed by it.

You're right. My opposition to this can best be summed up in two points:

1. The Astros have a 50-year history as a National League team; in fact, one of the quintessential "NL" teams due to their tradition of great pitching and great speed, as opposed to being known for HR hitters.

2. The whole notion of two 15-team leagues is flawed, in my opinion. It necessitates year-round interleague games, which will grow tiresome and seem especially wrong on Opening Day, and when crucial races are being decided the last week of the season with fucked-up lineups. Not to mention that it is a likely precursor to implementing the DH in the NL, which I think would be truly sacreligious.

[Reuben]

Whoever this Randy McIlvoy guy is, he at least seems to give a damn about reporting on the Astros:

contrary to Gammons report, Crane's group hasn"t been approached by #MLB  on move to AL. Nov approval is not new news. Owner mtgs Nov 15-16

&

I have spoken to 3 key sources & spokesperson w/ Crane's group. Gammon's report was premature. nothing done on ownership or AL

&

There is yet another report out that Jim Crane flew/met w/Selig today for 2nd time. Sources tell me NOT true. #astros

So, who the hell is all this misinformation coming from?

[MusicMan]

McIlvoy is Ch. 2's sports anchor.

[Arky Vaughan]

You're right. My opposition to this can best be summed up in two points:

1. The Astros have a 50-year history as a National League team; in fact, one of the quintessential "NL" teams due to their tradition of great pitching and great speed, as opposed to being known for HR hitters.

2. The whole notion of two 15-team leagues is flawed, in my opinion. It necessitates year-round interleague games, which will grow tiresome and seem especially wrong on Opening Day, and when crucial races are being decided the last week of the season with fucked-up lineups. Not to mention that it is a likely precursor to implementing the DH in the NL, which I think would be truly sacreligious.

The notion of two 15-team leagues is so flawed, in fact, that it was what prompted MLB to move the Brewers to the National League, after 23 seasons in the American League, when MLB expanded to Arizona and Tampa Bay in 1998. MLB thought having a four-team AL West and a six-team NL Central was fine at the time because it meant not having interleague play every day.

If MLB is determined to add a second wild card in each league, and feels that every division should have five teams to accommodate that, fine, but in that case why not move the Brewers back to the American League? They could join the AL Central, where they would have "natural" geographic rivals in the Twins and the White Sox, and the Royals could move to the AL West, giving the Rangers another Central Time opponent in their division.

Of course, a big reason Selig was willing to move his Brewers at the time was his nostalgia for the National League from the 13 seasons the Braves played in Milwaukee, which apparently counts more than the nostalgia Houston fans have developed over the 50 seasons the Astros have spent in the National League.

Sandy Koufax's biographer once called Selig "the dumbest Jew in America." I can't vouch for that, but I think he's a major-league jackass.

[Navin R Johnson]

From what I have been hearing, it doesn't sound good, for those of us who want to stay in the NL.   In terms of "compensation" for moving, think of something along the lines of the Astros getting to play the Cubs and Cards in interleague play for the first handful of years....

<Gundy>makes me wanna puke....</Gundy>

[Reuben]

From what I have been hearing, it doesn't sound good, for those of us who want to stay in the NL.   In terms of "compensation" for moving, think of something along the lines of the Astros getting to play the Cubs and Cards in interleague play for the first handful of years....

<Gundy>makes me wanna puke....</Gundy>

I was thinking what would be more acceptable is for the Astros to be able to draft one player from each of the other 29 teams. Could you pass my idea along to Crane? Thanks.

[Noe]

Sandy Koufax's biographer once called Selig "the dumbest Jew in America." I can't vouch for that, but I think he's a major-league jackass.

From what I understand of Selig, he is the opposite personality type of what a commissioner usually is for the MLB.  The commissioner is typically someone who looks out for the good of the whole league and not the interest of a select few.  He/She cannot portray selective favors towards the players, the umpires, the owners, or peripheral issues. The fault some have with Selig is one thing and one thing alone (as far as I know): he favors the owners.  He does well by the league in terms of the good of the game, but when it comes to owners themselves, he can be swayed or influenced highly by the more aggressive of the bunch (and there are plenty of them too) to react and act on vital situations facing the game by owners interest. While Selig may be able to handle other situations outside of the owners interest, his inability to distance himself from owners interest is his downfall as being seen as an competent commissioner.  So for many items that Selig becomes the front man for the interest of the owners, he seems over-matched and ill prepared to qualify and defend decisions.  How can he, they are really not his to defend.

When you see this merry-go-round with the sale of the Astros playing out, it becomes yet another puppet commissioner situation.  It is the other owners in the MLB that are pulling these strings and Selig once again is the willing puppet that frankly would do better to allow Crane and whoever in the owners group wants this to happen to talk to each other.  Basically, Selig does nothing but muddy the waters in this whole affair and again puts himself in the cross-hairs of fans and the MLBPA (if they are against this move, if not, then no problem) as the target to shoot at.

I think it is a waste of time to punch Selig again and again... while it may be fun, it's not really the message that should be sent.  But having said that, without the revenue sharing model for the MLB, who in the owners pool really gives a damn how it will hurt the local nine fandom?  If anything, if this actually creates more revenue by way of more wildcard playoffs and more exposure for the MLB (and more following and thus more individual club revenue - re: "We're not out of this race!"). What owners would think this a bad thing?  The answer is none of them.

And in the end, it's about revenue or money making once again.  I know... when Boycott Wall Street maniacs are done, do you think they can go pee on the MMPUS for a few weeks to voice the disgust for how money is once again ramming bad ideas down our throats! Damnit!

[jbm]

From what I have been hearing, it doesn't sound good, for those of us who want to stay in the NL.   In terms of "compensation" for moving, think of something along the lines of the Astros getting to play the Cubs and Cards in interleague play for the first handful of years....

<Gundy>makes me wanna puke....</Gundy>

If this is his idea of compensation, he doesn't appear to be too demanding.  In fact, he is starting to look like a total fool.  

[Noe]

If this is his idea of compensation, he doesn't appear to be too demanding.  In fact, he is starting to look like a total fool.  

Have you not watched "Pawn Stars"?  Crane asks for a gazzillion dollars, the Pawn Broker offers 20 bucks.  And then they try to work towards the middle.  If he were a fool, then this deal would have been done a very long time ago.  Think about it.

[jbm]

I got the impression from the post that a few years playing your old rivals was the middle ground.

At any rate, if they are negotiating over the AL move only, it means that MLB has admitted that this is only about the move.  If that is the case, Crane has a much better hand than he is playing, imo.  However, he can't successfully play that hand as long as he is committed to final approval at all costs.  Embracing the idea that he might not get approved would put him in a much stronger position.

[chuck]

I fully understand why the league, the commissioner, the owner and the potential owner would not give a fuck about a fan like me. I fully understand why several of the above would accept or even welcome a move to the AL.

What I don't understand is why Crane would accept a move to the AL West. The later game times will have a serious negative impact on the audience of the broadcast. But I don't know anything about the new contract. Are the TV revenues locked in regardless of scheduling considerations?

[Noe]

I got the impression from the post that a few years playing your old rivals was the middle ground.

At any rate, if they are negotiating over the AL move only, it means that MLB has admitted that this is only about the move.  If that is the case, Crane has a much better hand than he is playing, imo.  However, he can't successfully play that hand as long as he is committed to final approval at all costs.  Embracing the idea that he might not get approved would put him in a much stronger position.

So there is no indication yet that he is playing his hand or being told to take it or leave it (from my understanding).  It is SOP to offer something hoping the other side is desperate enough to do just former and not the latter.  That it has drawn out this long means that the floated conditions have not been accepted out of desperation.  In fact, what I've heard Crane said is that he is getting frustrated by these tatics.  Bringing in the rumors that the owners group has a problem with Crane's past in light of how they see the McCourt saga play out in LA has met my cynical eye if you will.  How convenient to 1) create a smokescreen on the future owner's credibility and 2) blame it on a good example in LA.  It is the very same owners group that took the money and ran with McCourt, so I cannot believe they had a ephiphany and decided that due diligence is very important for the good of the game.  No, I think that this is an opportunity to make more money.... by creating the league they want to handle more revenue generation.  Can I blame them?  No, that is their right to do so.  Do I get a little upset that they try to play the slight of hand trick in terms of why this delay is happening?  Yes, yes I do.

It is very simple to me: Crane wants in.  The owners want to create more wildcard possibilities and an evenly divided set of leagues is just the ticket.  So, let's talk turkey, how do we get this done?  I know Whitey Gammons reported it is a done deal and no one wants to confirm it... but in general, it is a done deal.  The game of chicken is not done yet, which is eggzactly what I think is going on now.

[Noe]

I fully understand why the league, the commissioner, the owner and the potential owner would not give a fuck about a fan like me. I fully understand why several of the above would accept or even welcome a move to the AL.

What I don't understand is why Crane would accept a move to the AL West. The later game times will have a serious negative impact on the audience of the broadcast. But I don't know anything about the new contract. Are the TV revenues locked in regardless of scheduling considerations?

Yes, I think they are.

[jbm]

Yes, I think they are.

You sure about this. Isn't this going to be the Astros/Rockets network?  The price of advertising on that network can't be set already.

[BatGirl]

this is so silly
especially since the d-backs are willing to fall on the sword

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2011-06-13-major-league-baseball-realignment-arizona-diamondbacks_n.htm

[VirtualBob]

this is so silly
especially since the d-backs are willing to fall on the sword

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2011-06-13-major-league-baseball-realignment-arizona-diamondbacks_n.htm

Exactly.  Somebody would still have to move to the NL west, and that would probably be your Houston Astros, but staying in the NL is the big issue ... timezones are a "challenge" but not a show-stopper.

[Navin R Johnson]

That article is from June.  Since that time the DBacks have come out and said they aren't interested in moving.

[BatGirl]

i never had a problem following the astros when they were in the nl west
how many west coast games will the astros play a season?
less than 30?

[BatGirl]

That article is from June.  Since that time the DBacks have come out and said they aren't interested in moving.

no worries
i already called no takesy-backseys

[BatGirl]

That article is from June.  Since that time the DBacks have come out and said they aren't interested in moving.

and, it's not that i don't believe you
it's that i'm lazy
source?

[juliogotay]

You sure about this. Isn't this going to be the Astros/Rockets network?  The price of advertising on that network can't be set already.

Correct. When the Astros have their own broadcast rights, ratings will determine ad revenue.

[Fredia]

wiill it be in austin

[Noe]

Correct. When the Astros have their own broadcast rights, ratings will determine ad revenue.

I stand corrected, but I still think their is very little to lose in revenue from the broadcasting and more to gain from selling the channel to distributors like TW or Comcast if the channel is providing much more than just Rockets and Astros broadcasting.  I think this is about the difference between millions and billions and I think ad revenue is in the millions category.

[Noe]

wiill it be in austin

Depends on your carrier.  I don't think it will be on Time/Warner, but will be on Dish for instance.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Depends on the carrier.  I don't think it will be on Time/Warner, but will be on Dish for instance.

First hand experience with AT&T dropping Astros games (despite the schedule) in favor of Rangers games.  I expect this will be at the heart of Crane's negotiation position.  Curb that, he'll move to the AL.

[Noe]

First hand experience with AT&T dropping Astros games (despite the schedule) in favor of Rangers games.  I expect this will be at the heart of Crane's negotiation position.  Curb that, he'll move to the AL.

Makes me wonder what he's dropped on the laps of the MLB in terms of conditions.  That no one has said "Deal!" means both sides aren't even close in terms of what the final conditions will be.  For now, we're left with "Crane has a reputation that is concerning the other owners" smokescreen so we can think that magnanimity is firmly at work here.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Makes me wonder what he's dropped on the laps of the MLB in terms of conditions.  That no one has said "Deal!" means both sides aren't even close in terms of what the final conditions will be.  For now, we're left with "Crane has a reputation that is concerning the other owners" smokescreen so we can think that magnanimity is firmly at work here.

With exception of the anointed and severely cynical, I agree.

[Navin R Johnson]

and, it's not that i don't believe you
it's that i'm lazy
source?

http://mlbreports.com/2011/07/18/hall-diamondbacks/
Derrick Hall:  I would not be in favor of us moving to the American League.  I personally am a big fan of the National League.  I like its strategy and I enjoy seeing the pitchers hit.  I am not a fan of the DH, but understand its place and like the fact that it prolongs players’ careers.  We have established some great rivalries within our division and want to stay here.  I also think there are better candidates for a move if one is needed.  But not sure 15-15 works.  That would include too much interleague throughout the season.  I like interleague play as it is conducted now.  However, I would recommend AL rules in NL cities and NL rules in AL cities.

[Navin R Johnson]

"Naturally, we would look into it if asked about it," Hall said. "But I'm not sure we'd ever get to that point because I think other teams make more sense geographically than we do. For me, personally, I'm a National League guy. I like the pace of the game, the strategy of the game. That's what I prefer. I would want to hear what our fans prefer, but I'm not sure we would ever get to that point."

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/feed/2011-04/skepticsbelievers/story/diamondbacks-dont-expect-to-move-to-al-in-realignment#ixzz1amRHySfZ

[juliogotay]

I stand corrected, but I still think their is very little to lose in revenue from the broadcasting and more to gain from selling the channel to distributors like TW or Comcast if the channel is providing much more than just Rockets and Astros broadcasting.  I think this is about the difference between millions and billions and I think ad revenue is in the millions category.

This is a concern to me based on the magnificent failure of ESPN to get carriage for the Longhorn Network. I can see regional cable cos. in south/southeast Texas picking up Astros/Rockets but I'm not confidant that Dish or DirectTV will. If what they are asked to pay if based on households served, can they justify those costs against a network that is of interest to a small portion of the U.S.?

On an unrelated note, what  will FOX Sports Houston do for programming? I wonder if the Astros/Rockets will pick up contracts of on-air talent like Lucas, Kevin E., etc. Do Brown/Deshaies work for FOX or the Astros?

[ValpoCory]

Do Brown/Deshaies work for FOX or the Astros?

Who does the games on My20?

[Guinness]

Do Brown/Deshaies work for FOX or the Astros?

Don't they work for the team?  Don't they say that in the express written consent thing they say?

[moriartp]

Brown and Deshaies are Astros employees. Lucas and the others are FSN.

[VirtualBob]

Brown and Deshaies are Astros employees. Lucas and the others are FSN.

As opposed to SFN which would never happen to them.

[Arky Vaughan]

this is so silly
especially since the d-backs are willing to fall on the sword

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2011-06-13-major-league-baseball-realignment-arizona-diamondbacks_n.htm

In fact, I think it was a condition to expansion that Arizona would accept a league change within a certain period of time. Since it's been 13 years now, that may have lapsed.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

In fact, I think it was a condition to expansion that Arizona would accept a league change within a certain period of time. Since it's been 13 years now, that may have lapsed.

The only two legitimate, non-convoluted, and justifiable moves are, Milwaukee going back to the AL West from whence they originally came, or Milwaukee to the AL Central and KC moving back to the AL West. But if Arizona is cool to the idea, then the most justifiable team to backfill the hole in NL West is the Astros. Which is infinitely better than the AL but still a bit of a bitter pill.

[Reuben]

Can someone remind me why they can't add two Wild Card teams without evening the leagues at 15 teams apiece? Why couldn't they just keep the divisions how they are now, keep interleague play as an annoying but brief sideshow, and have a one more Wild Card per league? Is the rest of the NL really that put out by having the odds be slightly more difficult (2 out of 13 non-division-winners making it, as opposed to 2 out of 11)?

[Fredia]

unlike me it would make sense

[jbm]

Can someone remind me why they can't add two Wild Card teams without evening the leagues at 15 teams apiece? Why couldn't they just keep the divisions how they are now, keep interleague play as an annoying but brief sideshow, and have a one more Wild Card per league? Is the rest of the NL really that put out by having the odds be slightly more difficult (2 out of 13 non-division-winners making it, as opposed to 2 out of 11)?

No shit, offer any NL team which feels slighted the option to join the statistically easer pennant race.  The whole crisis is mostly contrived. Sure, balancing the leagues would help, but it isn't absolutely necessary by a long shot.  MLB has lived with the statistical unfairness for a long time, it is no crisis begging to be addressed.

Not only is the franchise being extorted, it is being extorted to address a contrived crisis.  Double bullshit.

[Jose Cruz III]

That article is from June.  Since that time the DBacks have come out and said they aren't interested in moving.

Neither are the Astros and we have seniority.

[Mr. Happy]

unlike me it would make sense

Eureka! Who are you and what have you done with our beloved Fredia?

[OregonStrosFan]

But if Arizona is cool to the idea, then the most justifiable team to backfill the hole in NL West is the Astros. Which is infinitely better than the AL but still a bit of a bitter pill.

Funny thing is that at this point, I've all but given up hope that HOU can avoid a move to the AL West.  If HOU was somehow 'only' forced to go to the NL West, I'd consider it a victory...

Have I mentioned lately that I loathe Bud Selig?!?!?

[chuck]

Who wants the Astros to move to the AL West other than the Rangers? Who benefits other than the Rangers?

[Mr. Happy]

Who wants the Astros to move to the AL West other than the Rangers? Who benefits other than the Rangers?

No one else.

[chuck]

No one else.

Wellsir, that's about all I've been able to come up with on my own. I certainly understand why the union likes the DH and why the owners like more wild card teams. But the only party I can see that would care about the Astros moving to the AL West would be the Rangers.

Surely there must be some percentage of owners who finds the reality of year-round interleague distasteful and unseemly.

[VirtualBob]

Wellsir, that's about all I've been able to come up with on my own. I certainly understand why the union likes the DH and why the owners like more wild card teams. But the only party I can see that would care about the Astros moving to the AL West would be the Rangers.

Surely there must be some percentage of owners who finds the reality of year-round interleague distasteful and unseemly.

This wild card thing is a red herring if ever there was one.  How about this year with both wild card races going right down to the wire!  How would it have been if they all made it in?  Boh-Ring.

[chuck]

This wild card thing is a red herring if ever there was one.  How about this year with both wild card races going right down to the wire!  How would it have been if they all made it in?  Boh-Ring.

No, absolutely, I'm totally with you. I'm simply assuming that as far as the owners are concerned more playoff games equals more money.

[moriartp]

How would it have been if they all made it in?  Boh-Ring.

As long as there are teams at make it and teams that don't, there will always be races.

[astrosfan76]

Wellsir, that's about all I've been able to come up with on my own. I certainly understand why the union likes the DH and why the owners like more wild card teams. But the only party I can see that would care about the Astros moving to the AL West would be the Rangers.

Surely there must be some percentage of owners who finds the reality of year-round interleague distasteful and unseemly.

The majority of owners may not give a crap who moves, as long as it's not them.  Since MLB has unique leverage over the Astros, we're the ones they're going after.  Drayton could be a yes-man for Selig, but if I don't know if this move happens if he wasn't selling.  That's not to say Drayton has brass balls and would make Bud step down from the idea, but MLB wouldn't have the same kind of leverage that it's trying to extort on Crane.

[Navin R Johnson]

Anyone notice that the best reporter in Houston, by a wide margin, Mark Berman has been noticeably silent on all of this?

[ValpoCory]

Anyone notice that the best reporter in Houston, by a wide margin, Mark Berman has been noticeably silent on all of this?

Alyson Footer changed her name?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Alyson Footer changed her name?

No, just careers.

[Limey]

No, absolutely, I'm totally with you. I'm simply assuming that as far as the owners are concerned more playoff games equals more money.

...and more teams staying in contention longer equals even more money.

[Arky Vaughan]

...and more teams staying in contention longer equals even more money.

Bud must not have figured out yet that if they expanded the playoffs to 30 teams, everyone would still be in contention at the end of the regular season.

[EasTexAstro]

Keep a 16-14 split, 8 teams in the playoffs, and the team with the worst record gets relegated to the AL...


What?

[Fredia]

why not put them all in the collseeum and let em duke it out..but wait those on roids would win...oh thats right they already do

[Limey]

Bud must not have figured out yet that if they expanded the playoffs to 30 teams, everyone would still be in contention at the end of the regular season.

Shhhh.  David Stern is listening...

[Noe]

Bud must not have figured out yet that if they expanded the playoffs to 30 teams, everyone would still be in contention at the end of the regular season.

Hello March Madness!

[Fredia]

christmas a mm..

[Lurch]

christmas a mm..

5 minutes of my life, gone.

[Jose Cruz III]

5 minutes of my life, gone.

And you still don't know what she is talking about.

[Bench]

Bud must not have figured out yet that if they expanded the playoffs to 30 teams, everyone would still be in contention at the end of the regular season.

Isn't that college football?

[chuck]

Isn't that college football?

That reminds me, I got an email the other day offering pre-sale access to the Meineke Discount Auto Parts Bowl of Texas so if any of you Longhorns fans want to get a jump on tickets, let me know.

[Ron Brand]

That reminds me, I got an email the other day offering pre-sale access to the Meineke Discount Auto Parts Bowl of Texas so if any of you Longhorns fans want to get a jump on tickets, let me know.

We're going to a bowl! We're going to a bowl!

[BizidyDizidy]

That reminds me, I got an email the other day offering pre-sale access to the Meineke Discount Auto Parts Bowl of Texas so if any of you Longhorns fans want to get a jump on tickets, let me know.

Let me know if you get anything for 1/9

[austro]

Let me know if you get anything for 1/9

Good Lord, is that when the championship is this year? Why not just move it to February?

[Arky Vaughan]

Good Lord, is that when the championship is this year? Why not just move it to February?

They don't want it to conflict with the NFL conference championship games in February.

[HudsonHawk]

Good Lord, is that when the championship is this year? Why not just move it to February?

College football season ends on January 1st. I have no interest in anything that happens after that day.

[astrosfan76]

BizofBaseball with another Crane update, this one giving optimism to Crane's approval and going into a little bit of detail on some topics.  One slant that I found interesting was this:

Speculating, it’s possible the Rangers might not have been keen to Crane. After all, Crane was part of a quickly cobbled together partnership with Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban that had them in the auction process for the Rangers that eventually saw a group headed by Nolan Ryan and Chuck Greenberg winning. The auction process drove the sale price up higher than expected, which didn’t exactly sit well with the new Rangers ownership group.

There's plenty of financial motive already, but I wonder if this plays a factor in Ryan pushing for the AL move, kind of a "You hurt my wallet, I'm going to hurt yours" statement.

http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5468:jim-crane-will-be-approved-to-purchase-astros-heres-why&catid=26:editorials&Itemid=39

[Jacksonian]

College football season ends on January 1st. I have no interest in anything that happens after that day.

That makes sense as no Houston football team will be doing anything after that day anyway.

[ValpoCory]

College football season ends on January 1st. I have no interest in anything that happens after that day.

Meaning you have interest in what happens before that day, like the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl, the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl, the Belk Bowl, the Little Caesars Bowl, the Franklin American Mortgage Music City Bowl, or the Military Bowl Presented By Northrop Grumman?

[HudsonHawk]

Meaning you have interest in what happens before that day, like the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl, the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl, the Belk Bowl, the Little Caesars Bowl, the Franklin American Mortgage Music City Bowl, or the Military Bowl Presented By Northrop Grumman?

It means I have an interest through that day. 

[BatGirl]

And you still don't know what she is talking about.

come on
clearly she's saying
"christmas at minute maid"

whatever, fredia
it's like you aren't even trying anymore

[MRaup]

whatever, fredia
it's like you aren't even trying anymore

That's been the case for a while now. Probably inspired by Zack's Alkie character.

[Astroholic]

That's been the case for a while now. Probably inspired by Zack's Alkie character.

Has anyone ever seen Alkie and Fredia in the same place at the same time?

[JaneDoe]

Has anyone ever seen Alkie and Fredia in the same place at the same time?

How many times have we heard that question?

[BatGirl]

50 million to go to the AL
(allegedly)

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2011/10/20/report-jim-crane-asks-for-50-million-reduction-of-astros-purchase-price/

[BizidyDizidy]

50 million to go to the AL
(allegedly)

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2011/10/20/report-jim-crane-asks-for-50-million-reduction-of-astros-purchase-price/

Would imply that he views at as $5 million per year hit to the bottom line

[Lurch]

Would imply that he views at as $5 million per year hit to the bottom line

Or he's buying into the suggestions that he overbid, and is simply leveraging this to get more in line with those expectations.  Or, a combination of both...

[jbm]

Fuck Drayton and Crane.  Drayton should tell Bud to either shove his demands up his ass or pay him 50 million.  Crane is a desperate fool who will be the mosted hated owner in Houston on day one.  Quite a feat.    

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Fuck Drayton and Crane.  Drayton should tell Bud to either shove his demands up his ass or pay him 50 million.  Crane is a desperate fool who will be the mosted hated owner in Houston on day one.  Quite a feat.    

You greatly under-estimate the appeal of AL baseball to the average fan.

[Astroholic]

How many times have we heard that question?

I am assuming more than once?  Hell, I might have before.

[jbm]

You greatly under-estimate the appeal of AL baseball to the average fan.

The average fan doesn't know the difference between the AL and the NL.  I also don't think the average fan even has an opinion on any owner.  Hell, they probably wouldn't even know who any of the owners in Houston are.  People that follow Houston sports do, and I doubt Crane will be real popular.

[JaneDoe]

The average fan doesn't know the difference between the AL and the NL.

Bingo.  I tried to explain it the other day to a friend of mine, but they were just oblivious.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Bingo.  I tried to explain it the other day to a friend of mine, but they were just oblivious.

And they'll never notice the difference between NL and AL styles..... other than chick's digging the long ball.

[drew corleone]

50 million to go to the AL
(allegedly)

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2011/10/20/report-jim-crane-asks-for-50-million-reduction-of-astros-purchase-price/

So... 30 pieces of Silver over 2000 years... Hell, that's a lot of inflation.

[Bench]

So... 30 pieces of Silver over 2000 years... Hell, that's a lot of inflation.

5,000 years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Koufax and that's all anyone ever brings up.

[MusicMan]

5,000 years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Koufax and that's all anyone ever brings up.

I notice you cut that off before Bud Selig.

[Mr. Happy]

5,000 years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Koufax and that's all anyone ever brings up.

What? No Abraham???

[The Spleen]

What? No Abraham???

He did invent the sacrifice bunt after all...

[ValpoCory]

He did invent the sacrifice bunt after all...

But he missed and a goat showed up.  Fuck the Cubs.

[Jose Cruz III]

But he missed and a goat showed up.  Fuck the Cubs.

It's a good thing he didn't sacrifice Steve Bartman. I would want to sacrifice myself if the Cubs won it all.