A&M to SEC?

[Andyzipp]

They have an army.  Maybe it is time to fight for their freedom.  Haven't they raided Waco in the past, or was that somewhere else? 

1926 (IIRC).  There was a rail car, and a howitzer (or the equivalent) involved.

[Lurch]

No sources listed, but woah

Earlier this evening, Notre Dame and Texas jointly presented the Big Ten Conference with their proposed terms of entry into the conference.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

If two of the three rivalries are with OU and A&M, I fail to see how this is anything but the ideal outcome... for everyone but Baylor, of course.

[austro]

What'd I miss? That seemed quite... reasonable?

The way I see this, Baylor is just playing the same card that A&M played: they're looking out for their best interests. If A&M leaves, the Big12 is nearly certain to dissolve, and if the Big12 dissolves, Baylor will be lucky to grab a C-USA spot (or the equivalent). That's millions of dollars lost. If they can prevent that by preventing A&M from leaving, well, that's what they're going to do.

At the very least, it should make the Baylor-A&M game more interesting.

[Andyzipp]

No sources listed, but woah

I've heard something similar.  And the 2014 timing makes sense in light of what is going on currently.

[Andyzipp]

The way I see this, Baylor is just playing the same card that A&M played: they're looking out for their best interests. If A&M leaves, the Big12 is nearly certain to dissolve, and if the Big12 dissolves, Baylor will be lucky to grab a C-USA spot (or the equivalent). That's millions of dollars lost. If they can prevent that by preventing A&M from leaving, well, that's what they're going to do.

At the very least, it should make the Baylor-A&M game more interesting.

But they won't prevent A&M from leaving.  They may (may) be able to prevent A&M to the SEC for a short time, but A&M will not be playing in the Big 12 next season.  We are quite prepared to start cutting off our noses, and we are quite prepared in light of the last 36 hours to severe ALL relations with Baylor, regardless of consequences.

Also, the Big 12 only dissolves if OU and/or Texas wants it to.  A&M has no say nor any concern about that.

[Ron Brand]

The way I see this, Baylor is just playing the same card that A&M played: they're looking out for their best interests. If A&M leaves, the Big12 is nearly certain to dissolve, and if the Big12 dissolves, Baylor will be lucky to grab a C-USA spot (or the equivalent). That's millions of dollars lost. If they can prevent that by preventing A&M from leaving, well, that's what they're going to do.

At the very least, it should make the Baylor-A&M game more interesting.

A&M is gone. That doesn't kill the Big 12. The question now is whether or not OU and OSU are gone. If they leave, then it's much more likely that the Big 12 dissolves or that Texas leaves and the conference reforms with other teams in it. The action by Baylor is as much a shot across the bow of the PAC-12 as anything else, because it signals their willingness to make things messy in court if the Big 12 goes down.

[austro]

Also, the Big 12 only dissolves if OU and/or Texas wants it to.  A&M has no say nor any concern about that.

I get the impression that OU and Texas both want the Big 12 dead at this point. They're just trying to avoid leaving fingerprints on the corpse.

[Lurch]

I get the impression that OU and Texas both want the Big 12 dead at this point. They're just trying to avoid leaving fingerprints on the corpse.

I'm not so sure about that.  It's working quite well for Texas, and if OU gets their network they should be very happy too.

[Ron Brand]

I get the impression that OU and Texas both want the Big 12 dead at this point. They're just trying to avoid leaving fingerprints on the corpse.

I think they realize it's inevitable, but they'd like an orderly timeline that coincides with the way the TV contracts line up. I think they'd like for the Big 12 to continue a little bit longer for that to happen but when it's this dicey, it becomes more important to make sure you're not the school left on the outside with half as much money as you've been planning on spending for the next five years or so.

[JimR]

I get the impression that OU and Texas both want the Big 12 dead at this point. They're just trying to avoid leaving fingerprints on the corpse.

not even close to true for UT.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

not even close to true for UT.

I have no doubt.  In the BIG 12, they are lead dog.  In any other conference there is likely to be less compliance from the member schools.

[MusicMan]

I have no doubt.  In the BIG 12, they are lead dog.  In any other conference there is likely to be less compliance from the member schools.

Well, the Aggies are about to get a whole new education in non-compliance.

[MusicMan]

No sources listed, but woah

From that:

Notably, there is a general discontent with the reporting of the situation by ESPN with specific regard to Texas. ESPN has, for self-serving purposes, drastically exaggerated the lean of Texas to the Pac12 conference in nearly all commentary. ESPN has essentially waged a propaganda campaign to drive support among the Texas stakeholders to the Pac12 conference. ESPN has gone so far as to attempt to accelerate the disintegration of the Big XII to pressure Texas into making an immediate conference change decision. Texas has steadfastly resisted change, and will do so until the appropriate time occurs for Texas to stand in a strong position to renegotiate television contracts, including with ESPN.

This rings very true to me.  ESPN cares nothing about the Pac12, Big12, UT, or anyone but ESPN.

[JimR]

I have no doubt.  In the BIG 12, they are lead dog.  In any other conference there is likely to be less compliance from the member schools.

you are funny.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

you are funny.

Admittedly, I'm beyond my depth here.  But I welcome any insight that will help me understand UT's thinking at this point.

[The Spleen]

Everyone is making outlandish proclamations.  Here's Baylor's (since removed from the Baylor.edu homepage):

Baylor takes steps to preserve Big 12 football and integrity in college athletics
POSTED BY THE BAYLOR PROUD TEAM IN ALUMNI, ATHLETICS, STUDENT LIFE

Since the news of a possible Texas-A&M-to-the-SEC move broke about a month ago, Baylor officials have...
(robble robble, WE WON'T LET THE TERRORISTS WIN! robble robble, and such as)
...Sic 'em, Baylor!

Sept. 7, 2011

Looks like they posted that mess 4 days early...

[ybbodeus]

1926 (IIRC).  There was a rail car, and a howitzer (or the equivalent) involved.

Correct.  I think it had something to do with THE MELEE in Waco at a game between the two teams, one in which a student from A&M was killed.

[ybbodeus]

But they won't prevent A&M from leaving.  They may (may) be able to prevent A&M to the SEC for a short time, but A&M will not be playing in the Big 12 next season.  We are quite prepared to start cutting off our noses, and we are quite prepared in light of the last 36 hours to severe ALL relations with Baylor, regardless of consequences.

Also, the Big 12 only dissolves if OU and/or Texas wants it to.  A&M has no say nor any concern about that.

It's never been about preventing you from leaving, though we don't want you to go, no doubt; it's been about protecting what we're hoping to get from the year old contract that everyone signed, buying time to try to maintain some semblance of a conference (whatever Dodds can build) and making sure we don't end up independent.  

I assure you that our athletic recovery of the last five years or so--hoops first, then football--is not impressive enough to entice an invitation from another AQ conference, should this one dissolve.  It probably scares any potential suitor more than impresses them, but that's the only option we really have.  Waiving our right to pursue legal action with nothing in return is suicide....and that's against God's law, too, as are dancing and recognizing other Baptists at the liquor store.

As for Okie, do you think they've thought through the economic impact of losing the baseball tournament, the softball tournament, the basketball tournaments and the proximity of fans who can reach games in Norman by car and who spend money in that state?  I don't think the PAC 10 will be hosting anything in lovely Norman (EDIT: or OKC), do you?

[remy]

Correct.  I think it had something to do with THE MELEE in Waco at a game between the two teams, one in which a student from A&M was killed.

Per wikipedia:

The 1926 football game coincided with Baylor's homecoming. During halftime Baylor Homecoming floats paraded around the field. When a float - actually a car pulling a flatbed trailer with several female Baylor students - neared the section where the Texas A&M Corps of Cadets sat, a cadet raced towards the car to try to steer it away. The motion caused Louise Normand to fall off the truck, injuring her and inciting a large riot. Students began using metal folding chairs and planks of wood that had been used as yard markers for weapons. Texas A&M student Lt. Charles Sessums was hit over the head with a chair in the melee and, although he initially appeared to recover, he died following the game.

On December 8, 1926, the two school presidents agreed to temporarily suspend athletic relations between the schools. The schools would not compete against each other in any athletic event for the next four years. Baylor and Texas A&M would not meet in football again until 1931.

[ybbodeus]

Should we laugh off the UT and ND to the Big 10 rumors?

[JimR]

Should we laugh off the UT and ND to the Big 10 rumors?

i am not laughing off anything, but as of yesterday afternoon, i doubt it.

[ybbodeus]

I hear ya', but since it's on a Northwestern board versus some slipshod Nebrasks or U of I board--pick whichever one you want, Illini or Hoosier--it just seems more credible.  I guess we should wait for Chip Brown to tell us what to be suspicious about or humored by.

[JimR]

I hear ya', but since it's on a Northwestern board versus some slipshod Nebrasks or U of I board--pick whichever one you want, Illini or Hoosier--it just seems more credible.  I guess we should wait for Chip Brown to tell us what to be suspicious about or humored by.

yes, i trust his sources more that the Hookem.com folks' sources.

if i think there may be something to it, i'll say so.

[Lurch]

I hear ya', but since it's on a Northwestern board versus some slipshod Nebrasks or U of I board--pick whichever one you want, Illini or Hoosier--it just seems more credible.  I guess we should wait for Chip Brown to tell us what to be suspicious about or humored by.

Same poster, later in post

ESPN attorneys have already contacted the Big Ten regarding the content of this post. Again, I am in no way affiliated with the Big Ten conference nor should anything I write be considered credible in any context.

However, ESPN has unfairly used its bully pulpit to influence Texas stakeholders to prefer the PAC. The Big Ten feels that if the current trend of reporting that Texas only has interest in the PAC 12 continues, this would merit a major legal action against ESPN.

Then this gem

The Big Ten just concluded a call with representatives from the University of Oklahoma Board of Regents, initiated by Oklahoma.

The call confirmed that the Big Ten would NOT extend an invitation to Oklahoma to join the conference.

[ybbodeus]

It's a frickin' merry-go-round strapped to a roller coaster soaring through a dark ride.

[JimR]

It's a frickin' merry-go-round strapped to a roller coaster soaring through a dark ride.

whole lot of horshit flying around. i do not believe (as of today) the Big 10 rumor.

[MusicMan]

Same poster, later in post

Then this gem

Yeah, moving it from "ESPN is doijng a lot of spinning" to "B1G may litigate over spinning" was a little much for my belief in credibility.

[Lurch]

whole lot of horshit flying around. i do not believe (as of today) the Big 10 rumor.

Which rumor specifically? That we're going to the Big 10, or that we made a joint presentation with ND to the Big10?  Even if there is no immediate intent to move in that direction, it seems reasonable that we would have this type of discussion now to at least know what options are out there should OU decide to go Pac12.  No?

[Astroholic]

whole lot of horshit flying around. i do not believe (as of today) the Big 10 rumor.

so much flying that I have begun to ignore it.. oh wait I clicked on this post. damn it.

[MusicMan]

so much flying that I have begun to ignore it.. oh wait I clicked on this post. damn it.

I don't want to watch the train wreck, but I can't turn away.

[Astroholic]

I don't want to watch the train wreck, but I can't turn away.

la la laaaa laaa laaa. I cant hear you.

[JimR]

Which rumor specifically? That we're going to the Big 10, or that we made a joint presentation with ND to the Big10?  Even if there is no immediate intent to move in that direction, it seems reasonable that we would have this type of discussion know to at least know what options are out there should OU decide to go Pac12.  No?

i think no, at this time.

[JackAstro]

check your pm.

Gah! ME TOO! ME TOO! OR EMAIL!

[Russe]

For the record, Purple Book Cat was so spot-on with his stuff regarding the last round of B1G expansion that Delaney publicly complained about leaks out of HQ. I know that has nothing to do with this particular rumor, but he's not just some guy pulling stuff out of his ass*.

*And if he is, he's really, really, good at it.

At any rate, UT/ND to the B1G is my (and probably the majority of B1G fans') dream scenario. I'm not getting my hopes up, but it would make for some fantastic football.

[MusicMan]

At any rate, UT/ND to the B1G is my (and probably the majority of B1G fans') dream scenario. I'm not getting my hopes up, but it would make for some fantastic football.

It's mine as well, but in Dodds I trust.

[Lefty]

Gah! ME TOO! ME TOO! OR EMAIL!

Blue Horseshoe loves Anacott Steel

[ybbodeus]

Anyone hearing BYU, Lousyville and Memfus to be added?  Great for hoops, not so much for football beyond new tv sets.  Geographically a modest stretch but not as insane as having four or five time zones involved.

EDIT:  BYU soon, the other two later (and probably much later).

[Ron Brand]

Anyone hearing BYU, Lousyville and Memfus to be added?  Great for hoops, not so much for football beyond new tv sets.  Geographically a modest stretch but not as insane as having four or five time zones involved.

EDIT:  BYU soon, the other two later (and probably much later).

There's also a thought that the Big 12 could move pre-emptively west and add Air Force, BYU and Boise State, which would lock the PAC-12 in.

[BizidyDizidy]

Pac12 is not going to take Boise or BYU ever

[ybbodeus]

You think the PAC would add schools like that, Ron?  Honestly not sure our conference wants the two city schools.  I would think Texas and Missouri might balk at that noise.

[hostros7]

Anyone hearing BYU, Lousyville and Memfus to be added?  Great for hoops, not so much for football beyond new tv sets.  Geographically a modest stretch but not as insane as having four or five time zones involved.

EDIT:  BYU soon, the other two later (and probably much later).

If y'all take Memphis over UH, you're just a bunch of dicks. 

[ybbodeus]

I think UofH is definitely in play when the push goes to 6 14-team conferences.  I say that, because I believe the collective of university presidents might stand up to the 4 16-team conference notion. 

UofH is doing things right from a football standpoint, given their limited revenue/resources from the standpoint of CUSA's addition to their coffers.  Just my opinion, even though cougar region hates Baylor's existence with a passion.  Yeah, I know; they have a growing group of friends in that club, and it wasn't exactly an exclusive membership prior to mid-August.

[Waldo]

Anyone hearing BYU, Lousyville and Memfus to be added?  Great for hoops, not so much for football beyond new tv sets.  Geographically a modest stretch but not as insane as having four or five time zones involved.

EDIT:  BYU soon, the other two later (and probably much later).

Depending on what rumors you believe, BYU could be announced as soon as tomorrow.

[ybbodeus]

That would fall in line with the "sooner" aspect of what I'm hearing.  And, yes, I'm hearing that talk but more as hopeful than anything concrete.  I'd be more inclined to believe it coming from Chip Brown, given his committment to being a tad more reasonable in his speculation.  And that's presuming his speculation is a bit more calculated than, say.....oh, never mind.

[Ron Brand]

You think the PAC would add schools like that, Ron?  Honestly not sure our conference wants the two city schools.  I would think Texas and Missouri might balk at that noise.

I really don't see it as the stroke of genius some people do, just relating something I'd read to show how goofy these rumors are getting.

[hostros7]

I think UofH is definitely in play when the push goes to 6 14-team conferences.  I say that, because I believe the collective of university presidents might stand up to the 4 16-team conference notion. 

UofH is doing things right from a football standpoint, given their limited revenue/resources from the standpoint of CUSA's addition to their coffers.  Just my opinion, even though cougar region hates Baylor's existence with a passion.  Yeah, I know; they have a growing group of friends in that club, and it wasn't exactly an exclusive membership prior to mid-August.

I can't speak for UH but my sense is that it's not hatred but just jealousy that better back office politics and such (including uh deficiencies) got one of the lesser swcs got in over another marginal choice.  I realize the term "jealousy" may be somewhat inflammatoy, but it is what is.  Any additional chafing over briles or such was just a result of confirmation that a similar program was in a better place. If they were peers again, I doubt the coogs would consider the bears a target, least of all a school worthy of hatred.

[MusicMan]

Chip is apparently stating this morning that OU/OSU to Pac-12 could happen by the end of the month.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Chip is apparently stating this morning that OU/OSU to Pac-12 could happen by the end of the month.

I will wager that this move will be pre-empted by threats of a Baylor lawsuit upon or before this announcement.  Just a gut feeling I get.

[MusicMan]

The interesting thing is that Chip is the one pushing this news.  Someone on the UT side wants this leaked, methinks.

[Andyzipp]

I will wager that this move will be pre-empted by threats of a Baylor lawsuit upon or before this announcement.  Just a gut feeling I get.

Whatever. SEC is going to accept A&M unconditionally soon enough.  Slive and Loftin have run the traps and are satisfied that the SEC is in the clear from a TI standpoint. If OU leaves, they will take OSU with them, and then the conference is over.  Of course Starr is going to keep threatening the SEC...even if OU leaves...first?

[Jacksonian]

Whatever. SEC is going to accept A&M unconditionally soon enough.  Slive and Loftin have run the traps and are satisfied that the SEC is in the clear from a TI standpoint. If OU leaves, they will take OSU with them, and then the conference is over.  Of course Starr is going to keep threatening the SEC...even if OU leaves...first?

I've thought from just about the start that the lawsuit was really a veiled threat to OU to keep them in place.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I've thought from just about the start that the lawsuit was really a veiled threat to OU to keep them in place.

I don't think you'll find much argument against the lawsuit being used a leverage.  It is fairly safe assumption that the threat was indirectly intended for OU (and therefore OSU as well).  Baylor is hosed.  At best, they are leaching off of UT and OU.  At worst, they are begging for acceptance into the WAC or CUSA. 

[Andyzipp]

I don't think you'll find much argument against the lawsuit being used a leverage.  It is fairly safe assumption that the threat was indirectly intended for OU (and therefore OSU as well).  Baylor is hosed.  At best, they are leaching off of UT and OU.  At worst, they are begging for acceptance into the WAC or CUSA. 

Under the idea that any conference with Texas in it is going to be an AQ conference, I'm still not sure that Texas doesn't just pull whatever minimum number of schools together to keep the Big 12 alive, at least for the short term.

The downside is that they'll be playing a crappy schedule for a few years, along with non-conference games against ND, BYU and one of OU/A&M.  The upside is that Texas will always start off the year ranked, and will always move up in the polls  with wins, so I'm not even sure that conference affiliation would matter that much.

[MusicMan]

Under the idea that any conference with Texas in it is going to be an AQ conference, I'm still not sure that Texas doesn't just pull whatever minimum number of schools together to keep the Big 12 alive, at least for the short term.

This would surprise me.  If you pull Rice, UH, SMU, etc. into any sort of conference, you're begging for legislature problems in getting out of it.

[JimR]

This would surprise me.  If you pull Rice, UH, SMU, etc. into any sort of conference, you're begging for legislature problems in getting out of it.

it would shock me. as of yesterday, OU has not told UT it is leaving.

[Andyzipp]

This would surprise me.  If you pull Rice, UH, SMU, etc. into any sort of conference, you're begging for legislature problems in getting out of it.

Nothing would surprise me at this point.

[Waldo]

I've thought from just about the start that the lawsuit was really a veiled threat to OU to keep them in place.

The way I see it, Baylor only has leverage over OU inasmuch as A&M->SEC has to be the first domino to fall.  If, for example, Mizzou goes to the Big 10 first, that could force the Pac 12's hand and OU/OSU bail out.  Or Pac 12 expands with OU/OSU first (despite their publicly stated desire not to) and then Mizzou leaves; either way.  If that pans out, you already have four votes to disband the Big 12 and only need two more.

In a situation like that, I have to think that the only way Baylor maintains any kind of leverage is if the other conferences implement the same conditional acceptance that the SEC did with A&M.  Even then, what is Baylor gonna do, sue ALL the other conferences and/or schools?

[austro]

Even then, what is Baylor gonna do, sue ALL the other conferences and/or schools?

You're dealing with Ken Starr, so anything's possible.

[Andyzipp]

Mike Slive's latest statement...

"In the 78 year history of the SEC, the conference had accepted the membership applications of only two institutions—Arkansas and South Carolina. Texas A&M is now the third. We remain optimistic that Texas A&M will be a member of the SEC and have started to look at schedules for 2012-13 involving thirteen teams.

"As I said over the past year or so, the SEC has had no particular interest in expansion. We were, and are, happy with twelve teams. If Texas A&M’s President, Dr. Bowen Loftin had not called me in late July, we had no plans to explore adding an institution.

"However, when President Loftin called we became interested. Texas A&M is an outstanding academic institution with an exceptional athletic program, passionate fans and wonderful traditions. While the SEC wasn't thinking about expansion, it was impossible not to be interested in Texas A&M. As you can see from the unanimous vote of our twelve Presidents/Chancellors, we would very much like to have Texas A&M as a member of our conference.

"When Texas A&M joins our conference, we don't have immediate plans for a 14th member. We aren’t thinking in terms of numbers. We think about the strength of the SEC and the attractiveness of Texas A&M as an institution."

[jbm]

Sounds like he was trying emphasize that they didn't actively seek out the Aggies. Hear that, all who wish to sue.

[Waldo]

Mike Slive's latest statement...

"In the 78 year history of the SEC, the conference had accepted the membership applications of only two institutions—Arkansas and South Carolina. Texas A&M is now the third. We remain optimistic that Texas A&M will be a member of the SEC and have started to look at schedules for 2012-13 involving thirteen teams.

"As I said over the past year or so, the SEC has had no particular interest in expansion. We were, and are, happy with twelve teams. If Texas A&M’s President, Dr. Bowen Loftin had not called me in late July, we had no plans to explore adding an institution.

"However, when President Loftin called we became interested. Texas A&M is an outstanding academic institution with an exceptional athletic program, passionate fans and wonderful traditions. While the SEC wasn't thinking about expansion, it was impossible not to be interested in Texas A&M. As you can see from the unanimous vote of our twelve Presidents/Chancellors, we would very much like to have Texas A&M as a member of our conference.

"When Texas A&M joins our conference, we don't have immediate plans for a 14th member. We aren’t thinking in terms of numbers. We think about the strength of the SEC and the attractiveness of Texas A&M as an institution."

BIFY

Not saying A&M isn't going to end up in the SEC, just that this release doesn't really say anything new.

[Phil_in_CS]

Zipp beat me to it, but here's a link for his quote
http://www.secdigitalnetwork.com/NEWS/tabid/473/Article/227939/commisioner-slive-talks-conference-alignment.aspx

[S.P. Rodriguez]

What is UT's plan if OU and OSU follow A&M, in leaving the Big 12?

[Bench]

What is UT's plan if OU and OSU follow A&M, in leaving the Big 12?

Go with them or go elsewhere or go alone.

[Lurch]

What is UT's plan if OU and OSU follow A&M, in leaving the Big 12?

The Million Dollar Question.  Guesses are all over the place.  In no particular order:

-Keep plugging the holes in the Big12 with other schools
-Pac-12
-Big10 with or without ND
-ACC
-Independent

-All of the above with or without Tex/OU game
-All of the above with or without Tex/A&M game
-All of the above with or without LHN

[hostros7]

What is UT's plan if OU and OSU follow A&M, in leaving the Big 12?

Haven't you learned this yet: whatever the fuck it wants.

[MusicMan]

The Million Dollar Question.  Guesses are all over the place.  In no particular order:

-Keep plugging the holes in the Big12 with other schools
-Pac-12
-Big10 with or without ND
-ACC
-Independent

-All of the above with or without Tex/OU game
-All of the above with or without Tex/A&M game
-All of the above with or without LHN

I'm convinced that keeping the Big 12 together is no longer viable.

[Andyzipp]

-All of the above with or without LHN

Why are they walking away from $300MM?  How would they even get out of that contract?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

The Million Dollar Question.  Guesses are all over the place.  In no particular order:

-Keep plugging the holes in the Big12 with other schools
-Pac-12
-Big10 with or without ND
-ACC
-Independent

-All of the above with or without Tex/OU game
-All of the above with or without Tex/A&M game
-All of the above with or without LHN

Which of the conferences you listed allow a conference member to have their own network (i.e. LHN)?

[Lurch]

Which of the conferences you listed allow a conference member to have their own network (i.e. LHN)?

Any willing to considering it within negotiations?  Other than that, just Big 12.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Any willing to considering it within negotiations?  Other than that, just Big 12.

So the reports I'm reading indicate none are looking to negotiate that as part of bringing UT into the fold.  It's all speculation, so I won't bother to link.  But if it's true, it's Big 12 or Indie.  This is looking like a bigger cluster with each passing day...

[Lurch]

Why are they walking away from $300MM?  How would they even get out of that contract?

Doesn't seem likely, though perhaps there is an equivalent (or close enough? whatever that might be given UTs bankroll) opportunity in a reworked Pac12 or Big10 network contract.

According to those that claim to have actually read it, or those that are referencing other posters that claim to have actually read it, there are opportunities to either rework or void the contract in the event of a conference realignment.  Considering the events of last year, that would seem to be a reasonable clause to have worked in.

But, yeah, I don't think this one is likely.  LHN isn't going anywhere (interpret that as you will.)

[JimR]

So the reports I'm reading indicate none are looking to negotiate that as part of bringing UT into the fold.  It's all speculation, so I won't bother to link.  But if it's true, it's Big 12 or Indie.  This is looking like a bigger cluster with each passing day...

very much not so.

[Phil_in_CS]

So the reports I'm reading indicate none are looking to negotiate that as part of bringing UT into the fold.  It's all speculation, so I won't bother to link.  But if it's true, it's Big 12 or Indie.  This is looking like a bigger cluster with each passing day...

I think any major conference would want UT. There's a reason why ESPN gave them so much money for the LHN - people want to watch them. With that much $$ floating around people can work out the details.

[Lurch]

So the reports I'm reading indicate none are looking to negotiate that as part of bringing UT into the fold.  It's all speculation, so I won't bother to link.  But if it's true, it's Big 12 or Indie.  This is looking like a bigger cluster with each passing day...

Even if not speculation, but verifiable statements from those conferences, wouldn't they likely state that regardless of their true willingness to negotiate?  If there is a bidding war between Pac12 and Big10, neither would want to be the first to cave on that point, at least not in public where the other can see where they're at.  When it comes down to inking a deal, though, my money is that one (or both) of them breaks.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

very much not so.

You're holding out on me Jim.  I must admit, you are the one who convinced me UT doesn't want to go independent. I'm not trolling here.  I want to understand UT's end-game.  The clearest path I see is total domination of a re-constituted Big 12 that no longer includes A&M and possibly OU/OSU. 

[MusicMan]

You're holding out on me Jim.  I must admit, you are the one who convinced me UT doesn't want to go independent. I'm not trolling here.  I want to understand UT's end-game.  The clearest path I see is total domination of a re-constituted Big 12 that no longer includes A&M and possibly OU/OSU. 

He shares his thoughts with fellow Big 12 schools.  You're out of the loop now.

[JimR]

You're holding out on me Jim.   

yes, i am. you are way off base.

[hostros7]

yes, i am. you are way off base.

It seems that he is hoping that UT ends up somehow screwed in all of this and ATM laughs all the way to their promised BCS title glory and 40 virgins in the SEC.  The cherry on top will be that ATM was the domino that got the whole thing in motion.   

Good for ATM for getting what it wanted, but you're delusional if you can't realize that UT will be given every option out there and rightfully so.  Move on with your new conference affiliation.  The faux concern for UT betrays your new independent, SEC badass persona. 

[MusicMan]

It seems that he is hoping that UT ends up somehow screwed in all of this and ATM laughs all the way to their promised BCS title glory and 40 virgins in the SEC.  The cherry on top will be that ATM was the domino that got the whole thing in motion.   

This is the attitude of far too many Aggies I deal with.

[Andyzipp]

This is the attitude of far too many Aggies I deal with.

Attitude something, something.  A&M is fortunate that Texas has no desires to be in the SEC.  Without denigrating the school I graduated from, Texas is the jewel in college football as far as this state goes.

[VirtualBob]

Blah blah blabbity blab blab blah blah. And if blah blah blubbery blab blah blah blithering blab, then blah blabbity blah blah.  Furthermore, when blah blah and 40 virgins in the SEC.    ERRKK!  The cherry ....

WHOA!!  You almost had me there until I realized you were making it all up.  You better run that through factchecker.com or something.

[MusicMan]

Attitude something, something.  A&M is fortunate that Texas has no desires to be in the SEC.  Without denigrating the school I graduated from, Texas is the jewel in college football as far as this state goes.

I'm happy for the Aggies.  I think most (certanily not all) Horns I know are happy for them.  I wish it were more mutual.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

It seems that he is hoping that UT ends up somehow screwed in all of this and ATM laughs all the way to their promised BCS title glory and 40 virgins in the SEC.  The cherry on top will be that ATM was the domino that got the whole thing in motion.

I think you are inferring quite a bit with this statement.  I get this from many of the UT Alums I know.  They can't seem to grasp that going to the SEC is about a bigger stage and improvement through better competition.  Everyone points out the risks to A&M, which are legitimate.  All I can say is, no risk no reward.  Of course a move to the SEC comes with risk of failure.  But so does staying in the Big 12. 

From my point of view, the move to the SEC is about breaking from tradition, which is rare in the world of TAMU, and facing the challenge of the best college football conference.

Good for ATM for getting what it wanted, but you're delusional if you can't realize that UT will be given every option out there and rightfully so.  Move on with your new conference affiliation.  The faux concern for UT betrays your new independent, SEC badass persona. 

I think UT will have many options to choose from, rightfully so or not.  I just don't know which one is their primary goal. One thing to keep in mind is this change, just as it applies with A&M, involves some risk for UT.  Jim seems to have some inside information, which I'd love to know.  I don't have his professional level of interest, obviously.  I do find the situation interesting in how this plays out. 

However, in regards to your statements on the whole.  Don't you think you're being a tad bit sensitive?  Given all the Aggie bashing over our wrong-headed, stubborn hick, cry-baby behavior you'd stop for a second and realize it isn't all about the past.  Sometimes it's about moving to a better situation in the future.  That's what the LHN is about, right?  Improving the revenue streams and recruiting platform for UT?  Why is it any different for A&M?  So A&M opted for the SEC instead of a regional sports network.  What's the problem?

[Phil_in_CS]

I don't know any Aggies that think or hope UT will get screwed by this. Again, our whole reasoning is that UT is so strong and rich they will get what they want no matter what happens, and we need to be elsewhere so we have a chance. There's some antipathy towards Baylor right now for their legal posturing, but I haven't heard anything towards Texas other than speculation about Big 10/Pac 12/Independent status.

Granted, I don't frequent TxAgs or similar sites.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I don't know any Aggies that think or hope UT will get screwed by this. Again, our whole reasoning is that UT is so strong and rich they will get what they want no matter what happens, and we need to be elsewhere so we have a chance. There's some antipathy towards Baylor right now for their legal posturing, but I haven't heard anything towards Texas other than speculation about Big 10/Pac 12/Independent status.

Granted, I don't frequent TxAgs or similar sites.

I think you will find much of what he is describing, the "Downfall of UT", on TxAgs.  I don't frequent the site, but was pointed there by some friends.  Seemed like more trash talking than discussion. 

[JimR]

I don't know any Aggies that think or hope UT will get screwed by this. Again, our whole reasoning is that UT is so strong and rich they will get what they want no matter what happens, and we need to be elsewhere so we have a chance. There's some antipathy towards Baylor right now for their legal posturing, but I haven't heard anything towards Texas other than speculation about Big 10/Pac 12/Independent status.

Granted, I don't frequent TxAgs or similar sites.

oh, please. change your name to Pollyanna in C/S

[Andyzipp]

I think you will find much of what he is describing, the "Downfall of UT", on TxAgs.  I don't frequent the site, but was pointed there by some friends.  Seemed like more trash talking than discussion. 

Which honestly is what most of the free college boards devolve into over time.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

oh, please. change your name to Pollyanna in C/S

Mongol General - "Conan!  What is best in life?"

Conan - "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. "

Mongol General - "That is good! That is good."

[hostros7]

I think you are inferring quite a bit with this statement.  I get this from many of the UT Alums I know.  They can't seem to grasp that going to the SEC is about a bigger stage and improvement through better competition.  Everyone points out the risks to A&M, which are legitimate.  All I can say is, no risk no reward.  Of course a move to the SEC comes with risk of failure.  But so does staying in the Big 12. 

From my point of view, the move to the SEC is about breaking from tradition, which is rare in the world of TAMU, and facing the challenge of the best college football conference.


I think UT will have many options to choose from, rightfully so or not.  I just don't know which one is their primary goal. One thing to keep in mind is this change, just as it applies with A&M, involves some risk for UT.  Jim seems to have some inside information, which I'd love to know.  I don't have his professional level of interest, obviously.  I do find the situation interesting in how this plays out. 

However, in regards to your statements on the whole.  Don't you think you're being a tad bit sensitive?  Given all the Aggie bashing over our wrong-headed, stubborn hick, cry-baby behavior you'd stop for a second and realize it isn't all about the past.  Sometimes it's about moving to a better situation in the future.  That's what the LHN is about, right?  Improving the revenue streams and recruiting platform for UT?  Why is it any different for A&M?  So A&M opted for the SEC instead of a regional sports network.  What's the problem?

You're confusing me for someone who gives a fuck other than just enjoying college football in general.  i went to a school that could compete with A&M and UT in only fencing and squash, and I doubt that would be the case if you trolled west campus asking for someone who knows how to wield an epee.

My comment was purely related to your continued pestering and asking for information (perhaps I should have just stayed out entirely but I didn't, unfortunately).  To me, the palpable sentiment among Aggies is contentment with the SEC and silent excitement hoping to watch the Big XII fall apart while the LHN becomes an albatross that forces UT into an unhappy independence.  Maybe that's just a small sample size of people I'm around; I fully realize that there is a wide variety of Aggie reaction to events as they unfold.  

Most of my comment was hyperbolic, but it was taken from my observations of how ATM alums have seemed to react these last few days in the wake of the turmoil that its imminent departure has created.  

[S.P. Rodriguez]

You're confusing me for someone who gives a fuck other than just enjoying college football in general.  i went to a school that could compete with A&M and UT in only fencing and squash, and I doubt that would be the case if you trolled west campus asking for someone who knows how to wield an epee.

Sorry for confusing you for someone who gives a fuck...

My comment was purely related to your continued pestering and asking for information (perhaps I should have just stayed out entirely but I didn't, unfortunately).  To me, the palpable sentiment among Aggies is contentment with the SEC and silent excitement hoping to watch the Big XII fall apart while the LHN becomes an albatross that forces UT into an unhappy independence.  Maybe that's just a small sample size of people I'm around; I fully realize that there is a wide variety of Aggie reaction to events as they unfold.

Have you read the crap reporting on the subject?  It makes Pinwheel look like a legitimate news man.  I do acknowledge the ensuing turmoil, post OU announcement.  Prior to that, I didn't see anything happening other than A&M leaving.  Why the focus is still on A&M instead of OU is beyond me. 

And the reason I'm pestering for information is because that's why I come here!

Most of my comment was hyperbolic, but it was taken from my observations of how ATM alums have seemed to react these last few days in the wake of the turmoil that its imminent departure has created.  

We're good.  I enjoy a good hyperbole just like the next Ag.

[Lurch]

Why the focus is still on A&M instead of OU is beyond me.

There IS no focus on A&M, thus his point.  Does that help?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

There IS no focus on A&M, thus his point.  Does that help?

Tell that to Baylor and Ken Starr....

[Rebel Jew]

I think any major conference would want UT. There's a reason why ESPN gave them so much money for the LHN - people want to watch them. With that much $$ floating around people can work out the details.

People don't realize the gigantic markets (Houston, Dallas, Austin/SA, etc.) that UT opens up to a conference like the Big 10 or Pac 10. Conversely, UT gets access to California or the midwest, depending on where they go. That's huge when you have your own TV network, or if you're going to a conference that already has their own network (Big 10 network). This is way bigger than simply geography or even quality of competition.

[Phil_in_CS]

People don't realize the gigantic markets (Houston, Dallas, Austin/SA, etc.) that UT opens up to a conference like the Big 10 or Pac 10. Conversely, UT gets access to California or the midwest, depending on where they go. That's huge when you have your own TV network, or if you're going to a conference that already has their own network (Big 10 network). This is way bigger than simply geography or even quality of competition.

Who doesn't realize it? ESPN did, and that's why the big money. You bet your ass the other conferences see it as well.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Who doesn't realize it? ESPN did, and that's why the big money. You bet your ass the other conferences see it as well.

Right.  But will they allow UT to keep it all for themselves or make them share it in some manner?  That's what I'm after. 

[JimR]

Right.  But will they allow UT to keep it all for themselves or make them share it in some manner?  That's what I'm after. 

and why the fuck do you care?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

and why the fuck do you care?

Curiosity I suppose.  I also want to know if UT is going to continue the UT/A&M game.  To me continuing the game with the schools in difference conferences, preferrably strong conferences for both, would only make the tradition that much better.  UT in the Big 12 without OU/OSU doesn't make for compelling competition, in my opinion. 

There are some Ags from SWC days who will watch the other schools in the conference and hope they do well, as long as it isn't against A&M.   

[JimR]

Curiosity I suppose.  I also want to know if UT is going to continue the UT/A&M game.  To me continuing the game with the schools in difference conferences, preferrably strong conferences for both, would only make the tradition that much better.  UT in the Big 12 without OU/OSU doesn't make for compelling competition, in my opinion. 

There are some Ags from SWC days who will watch the other schools in the conference and hope they do well, as long as it isn't against A&M.   

i thought you were asking about LHN $. the network could have been half yours, but Byrne was not interested.

[Rebel Jew]

Who doesn't realize it? ESPN did, and that's why the big money. You bet your ass the other conferences see it as well.

a lot of fans don't realize it. espn and the conferences definitely do-- big 10, for instance, would much rather have UT than Notre Dame for these reasons., among others

[MusicMan]

I also want to know if UT is going to continue the UT/A&M game. 

/shakes Magic 8-ball
//"Not likely"

[MRaup]

/shakes Magic 8-ballLimey
//"Not bloody likely"

FIFY.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

i thought you were asking about LHN $. the network could have been half yours, but Byrne was not interested.

I've read differing takes on this statement so I couldn't give it much value.  Even if it was a 50/50 split between UT and A&M, I don't know how this contributes to a more competitive Big 12.  

So, from this, I am inferring that UT simply wanted the LHN and for everything else to continue as before?

[Rebel Jew]

I've read differing takes on this statement so I couldn't give it much value.  Even if it was a 50/50 split between UT and A&M, I don't know how this contributes to a more competitive Big 12.  

So, from this, I am inferring that UT simply wanted the LHN and for everything else to continue as before?

In case it hasn't been obvious enough over the last few years, signature TV networks are the future of major sports revenue. Who knows what went on behind the scenes, but A&M has to understand that no matter the terms. I imagine one of the major issues underneath the NFL lockout was Jerry Jones' frustration at not being able to do a "Dallas Cowboys Network."

[JimR]

I've read differing takes on this statement so I couldn't give it much value.  Even if it was a 50/50 split between UT and A&M, I don't know how this contributes to a more competitive Big 12.  

So, from this, I am inferring that UT simply wanted the LHN and for everything else to continue as before?

i do not give a shit what you "give value" to. i am telling you without equivocation that DeLoss Dodds called Bill Byrne when the idea was in the embryonic stage. Byrne said no so UT went it alone.

[MusicMan]

i do not give a shit what you "give value" to. i am telling you without equivocation that DeLoss Dodds called Bill Byrne when the idea was in the embryonic stage. Byrne said no so UT went it alone.

And whatever "differing takes" there may be, both Dodds and Byrne have said that conversation took place.

[tophfar]

And whatever "differing takes" there may be, both Dodds and Byrne have said that conversation took place.

Yes, embryonic, stage four years ago.  People are trying to spin that Byrne turned down the offer recently, which is not true.  There was no offer to split the ESPN $300 million at any time.

[MusicMan]

People are trying to spin that Byrne turned down the offer recently, which is not true.

Byrne is the one trying to spin that, because he blew that call.  Badly.

There was no offer to split the ESPN $300 million at any time.

Of course not.  Anyone who thinks that UT voluntarily took on all the risks of developing their own technology, infrastructure, etc. for the network and then volunteered to give A&M $150M is a fucking moron.

[Andyzipp]

And whatever "differing takes" there may be, both Dodds and Byrne have said that conversation took place.

They did, 36 months ago.  No one was expecting ESPN to offer up $300MM.  I doubt that even Dodds thought he'd be getting that kind of money.

Byrne has told folks that the offer of a network was each school would go in 50/50 on facilities and production, and that the split in revenues would be 60/40 to Texas.  He was not interested in that arrangement.  He also didn't believe that the two schools could generate enough programming to make anyone want to watch...which...I guess he was wrong on that.

But the existence of the LHN, and some imagined jealously isn't why A&M is leaving.

[JimR]

Yes, embryonic, stage four years ago.  People are trying to spin that Byrne turned down the offer recently, which is not true.  There was no offer to split the ESPN $300 million at any time.

wrong on both counts.

Byrne called back after ESPN got involved to say he was interested. Dodds told him the train had left the station.

[tophfar]

Of course not.  Anyone who thinks that UT voluntarily took on all the risks of developing their own technology, infrastructure, etc. for the network and then volunteered to give A&M $150M is a fucking moron.

This is the point.  People are trying to act like he turned down $150 million dollars.  That did not happen.

[tophfar]

wrong on both counts.

Byrne called back after ESPN got involved to say he was interested. Dodds told him the train had left the station.

Exactly.  There was no offer to split the ESPN deal.

[MusicMan]

This is the point.  People are trying to act like he turned down $150 million dollars.  That did not happen.

No, he turned down the idea.  Which eventually led to missing out on $150M.

[tophfar]

No, he turned down the idea.  Which eventually led to missing out on $150M.

At no point in time did anyone think that this deal would reach $300 million.  And at the time, as has been pointed out, costs to revenue, the deal did not make sense from the A&M side.

He may have ended up wrong, but how it is being presented is pure spin.

[JimR]

Exactly.  There was no offer to split the ESPN deal.

there was an offer to split any deal they would negotiate. Byrne said no. he missed out on splitting the ESPN deal by his no.

[JimR]

At no point in time did anyone think that this deal would reach $300 million.  And at the time, as has been pointed out, costs to revenue, the deal did not make sense from the A&M side.

He may have ended up wrong, but how it is being presented is pure spin.

spin by aggies. he badly miscalculated what UT could do. the offer was "come with us and split the proceeds." he made a bad decision.

[Waldo]

I think it was Dodds that said the discussions on the joint network never got to the point of discussing specific numbers re: revenue splits, but I can't remember where I read that.

At no point in time did anyone think that this deal would reach $300 million.  And at the time, as has been pointed out, costs to revenue, the deal did not make sense from the A&M side.

He may have ended up wrong, but how it is being presented is pure spin.

Who's doing the spinning?  It's hardly UT's fault that they did all the hard work to build the concept and got the $300 million deal, and then turned down A&M when they came in at the last minute trying to ride the gravy train.

Everything else you said is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[tophfar]

Who's doing the spinning?  It's hardly UT's fault that they did all the hard work to build the concept and got the $300 million deal, and then turned down A&M when they came in at the last minute trying to ride the gravy train.

Unholy crap.  

First of all, the only confirmed from both sides conversation that took place was three years ago.  I personally have not heard of Byrne calling them back sometime this year, but that doesn't mean it did not happen, but it has not been admitted by both sides, and this is the first I personally have heard of it.

And at no point in time has anyone faulted UT for taking the $300 million, or doing it on their own.  

What has been happening, is that people keep insisting that Byrne turned down $150 million dollars.  No.  This did not happen.  He turned down an unequal revenue split, with no contract, over THREE YEARS AGO.

Which doesn't mean he didn't make a mistake.  But the context of that decision is completely different in that light, than what is attempting to be presented.

This is the spin.  You guys are so goddamn touchy.

[MusicMan]

What has been happening, is that people keep insisting that Byrne turned down $150 million dollars.  No.  This did not happen. 

I'd love to see someone claiming that he turned down the offer after ESPN made their deal with UT.

[Bench]

I'd love to see someone claiming that he turned down the offer after ESPN made their deal with UT.

I've heard it from a few folks.  I think I even read it here in some form.  People say dumb shit and then other people repeat it.  It happens all the time.  See writers, sports. 

[S.P. Rodriguez]

So, for the record, I didn't mean to stir up all this back and forth. 

Jim, duly noted.  I wasn't dismissing the conversation, as I had read Byrne acknowledge the discussion.  What was not clear were the specifics.  I still don't know what value to put on statements of 50/50 splits on costs and 60/40 splits in revenue to UT.  If that was the deal, what a load of bevo sized bullshit.  If it's not true, then all it does is provoke animosity.  Again, no value.  In the end, UT has the LHN and a sweet deal with ESPN.  A&M decided the SEC was a better place to be than in the sizable shadow of UT.  UT had their strategy, A&M has theirs..

To the rest of the points, who cares.  A&M in the SEC, UT in whatever remains in the Big 12.  I just want to see the UT/A&M rivalry played out on the field.  I'm tired of it playing out in the press.  Hell, make it one of your non-conference games and air it on LHN.  It should produce better ratings that UT/Rice.

[ybbodeus]

No, he turned down the idea.  Which eventually led to missing out on $150M.

$120MM? (60/40 split)

[Lurch]

$120MM? (60/40 split)

Not enough!  (hey, can I borrow $15MM?)

[Waldo]

What has been happening, is that people keep insisting that Byrne turned down $150 million dollars.  No.  This did not happen.  He turned down an unequal revenue split, with no contract, over THREE YEARS AGO.

Has the "unequal revenue split" part been confirmed by both sides?  Honest question.  As I said before, I think Dodds said they never got that far in the discussion.

[tophfar]

Has the "unequal revenue split" part been confirmed by both sides?  Honest question.  As I said before, I think Dodds said they never got that far in the discussion.

As far as the confirmation, this i do not know on the UT side. Not to drag andy back into the middle of this, but im sure his sources are better than mine, for whatever thats worth.

But regardless, even if its a 50/50 split, it doesnt change much.  It doesnt change the fact that there was no tv offer yet on the table. And it also ignores the fact that at the time of the phone call, a school network was not yet allowed by the Big 12.  That didn't occur until 2 years later, when the threat of UT (plus others) leaving for the PAC-10 was used as leverage to get that permission.

So what we are left with is that Byrne turned down, what he felt was an unviable network, that didnt have an offer by a network, in conference where it wasnt even allowed to exist, all occuring over three years ago.

Thats still hardly "Aggies turn down $150 million, get pissed at UT".

The phone call this year, which I'm sure Jim's sources are plenty reliable, to me is more about due dilligence, although some can characterize it as begging, but thats just sour grapes to me.  Byrne hears the ESPN offer, knows that there had been interest at a partnership, and asks if its still on the table. It wasnt, and he went on about his business.

But people can view it however they choose.

[ybbodeus]

"Byrne her, anyway!!!"

[JimR]

I am done discussing this. You Ags think what you want.

[tophfar]

I am done discussing this. You Ags think what you want.

I find it amusing, which side the vitrol and anger is coming from.

[Ron Brand]

I find it amusing, which side the vitrol and anger is coming from.

Tophfar, I don't say this lightly, but you're full of shit when you continue to try to provoke people who really aren't pissed off or who aren't making the statements you claim to be hearing. Take that up with them, but it isn't going on here and you're just trolling.

[tophfar]

Tophfar, I don't say this lightly, but you're full of shit when you continue to try to provoke people who really aren't pissed off or who aren't making the statements you claim to be hearing. Take that up with them, but it isn't going on here and you're just trolling.

Ok mr grumpy pants, you can say things heavily or lightly, it makes no matter to me, but please don't strain yourself doing so.  

I simply pointed out the time line of events, which might I add, hasn't particularly been disputed, is different than what people were attempting to imply, regarding that decision to not participate in that network.  

It may have in the wrong decision in the end, but that doesn't take away that the context of the decision was being misrepresented.

And apparently, thats "trolling".  To you.  A Longhorn.  Go figure.  

I find it amusing, which side the vitrol and anger is coming from.

But really you are case in point.  Thanks for that.

[Lurch]

Damnit.  Which step are we on here?

[MRaup]

Ok mr grumpy pants, you can say things heavily or lightly, it makes no matter to me, but please don't strain yourself doing so.  

I simply pointed out the time line of events, which might I add, hasn't particularly been disputed, is different than what people were attempting to imply, regarding that decision to not participate in that network.  

It may have in the wrong decision in the end, but that doesn't take away that the context of the decision was being misrepresented.

And apparently, thats "trolling".  To you.  A Longhorn.  Go figure.  
But really you are case in point.  Thanks for that.

You're intentionally stirring the pot then throwing up your hands saying "I didn't do it!" Fuck you. Nobody is buying your 'why is everyone directing their anger at poor innocent little me?' bullshit. Take it somewhere else. And while you're at it, fuck off.

[tophfar]

You're intentionally stirring the pot then throwing up your hands saying "I didn't do it!" Fuck you. Nobody is buying your 'why is everyone directing their anger at poor innocent little me?' bullshit. Take it somewhere else. And while you're at it, fuck off.

I mean this in all honesty, I didnt do anything.  I have called no one a name.  I have used no curse words.  I simply presented a different take on what was being presented by the UT side.

If you can point to anything where I have been trolling, by all means please do so.

Otherwise, this pretty much still stands.

I find it amusing, which side the vitrol and anger is coming from.

[Taras Bulba]

I still don't like mixed martial arts.

[MRaup]

I mean this in all honesty, I didnt do anything.  I have called no one a name.  I have used no curse words.  I simply presented a different take on what was being presented by the UT side.

If you can point to anything where I have been trolling, by all means please do so.

Otherwise, this pretty much still stands.

Pretty much the entirety of page 31, where you keep repeating the same tired and incorrect point over and over again despite people refuting what you say.


But hey, just quote something you said earlier again and tell me that I'm bitter and angry because I'm a Longhorn fan. That'll show me.

[tophfar]

Pretty much the entirety of page 31, where you keep repeating the same tired and incorrect point over and over again despite people refuting what you say.

No one refuted a word I said.  Point to it.

[tophfar]

I still don't like mixed martial arts.

That's your choice.  Its still no different than boxing.

[MRaup]

No one refuted a word I said.  Point to it.

Nobody has any reason to refute anything you say because you're just shitting out of your mouth.

[tophfar]

Nobody has any reason to refute anything you say because you're just shitting out of your mouth.

Exactly.  Thanks.  Good job there.

[MRaup]

Exactly.  Thanks.  Good job there.

Happy to help.

You notice that none of the other Aggies are coming to your defense? That's probably not too good of a sign for your crusade for truth.

[sporadic]

Nobody has any reason to refute anything you say because you're just shitting out of your mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmNeO63xCnU

[hostros7]

Tophar last posted in 2008 under a thread entitled "UT gets screwed."  He's a single issue voter.  The back and forth is clearly just wasted typing. 

[Phil_in_CS]

Tophar last posted in 2008 under a thread entitled "UT gets screwed."  He's a single issue voter.  The back and forth is clearly just wasted typing. 

The rich and powerful rarely get screwed. UT won't get screwed here.

[MRaup]

The rich and powerful rarely get screwed. UT won't get screwed here.

I can think of a bunch of daughters of billionaires that beg to differ.

[VirtualBob]

Nobody has any reason to refute anything you say because you're just shitting out of your mouth.

Actually, I think this was a good job.  Glad someone said it.

[ybbodeus]

I can think of a bunch of daughters of billionaires that beg to differ.

He probably should have written screwed over. 

The joke about two retired attorneys sitting on a park bench eyeing a babe walking by comes to mind.

Attorney 1: "Boy, Eugene, I'd like to screw that woman."
Attoeny 2:  "Outta what?"

[AtascAstro]

So UT just scheduled a BOR meeting for Monday with Conference Membership on the agenda...

Fella on the Tech board that predicted this meeting seems to think that the Big 12 is donecakes and this meeting will seal it.  

[austro]

So UT just scheduled a BOR meeting for Monday with Conference Membership on the agenda...

Fella on the Tech board that predicted this meeting seems to think that the Big 12 is donecakes and this meeting will seal it. 

OU apparently has a similar meeting scheduled for Monday.

[MusicMan]

Sigh.

This likely means ACC.  I trust Dodds/Powers that this is in the University's long-term best interests, but ACC football does nothing to excite me.

[Ron Brand]

Sigh.

This likely means ACC.  I trust Dodds/Powers that this is in the University's long-term best interests, but ACC football does nothing to excite me.

Yeah, ACC football is pretty weak. None of the options look good at this point, especially if OU heads west.

But that baseball and basketball would sure be an upgrade.

[JimR]

Sigh.

This likely means ACC.  I trust Dodds/Powers that this is in the University's long-term best interests, but ACC football does nothing to excite me.

i think it is better than this if we keep playing OU. the Big 12 was not exactly a powerhouse either.

[MusicMan]

i think it is better than this if we keep playing OU. the Big 12 was not exactly a powerhouse either.

There is no scenario acceptable to me where we stop playing OU at the Fair.

[austro]

i think it is better than this if we keep playing OU. the Big 12 was not exactly a powerhouse either.

Just seems weird to think about going to Maryland to play a conference game. I guess we'll get used to it.

[hostros7]

i think it is better than this if we keep playing OU. the Big 12 was not exactly a powerhouse either.

If FSU or VT doesn't leap to the SEC, which may or may not be a possibility.  VT, BC, Miami, FSU, UNC, Maryland, UVA isn't that bad a mix.  Just curious, why the ACC over the Pac-10--all come back to LHN?

[sporadic]

VT, BC, Miami, FSU, UNC, Maryland, UVA isn't that bad a mix.  

Better top to bottom that the PAC-whatever.  Clemson, NCState and GT can be pretty solid any given year.

[MusicMan]

Just curious, why the ACC over the Pac-10--all come back to LHN?

Of course.  If it weren't, there would have been a Pac-16 last summer.

[MusicMan]

Just seems weird to think about going to Maryland to play a conference game. I guess we'll get used to it.

At least the food is better than Ames.

[JimR]

If FSU or VT doesn't leap to the SEC, which may or may not be a possibility.  VT, BC, Miami, FSU, UNC, Maryland, UVA isn't that bad a mix.  Just curious, why the ACC over the Pac-10--all come back to LHN?

more than LHN. member schools must surrender all property rights to the conference. UT will never do that (as of Wednesday!).

[S.P. Rodriguez]

There is no scenario acceptable to me where we stop playing OU at the Fair.

What about UT/A&M?  Even if it's not at Thanksgiving? 

[JimR]

What about UT/A&M?  Even if it's not at Thanksgiving? 

i think that series is over.

[MusicMan]

i think that series is over.

This.  I've made my peace with that, hate it as I may.

[JimR]

This.  I've made my peace with that, hate it as I may.

as my guy says "the situation is extremely fluid." who knows what will happen. my sense is we don't care about that series, but i am not in the meeting room.

[Phil_in_CS]

I think the UT/AM series is done too, unless Jerry Jones coughs up big money for a Cowboy stadium thing. Both schools are going to have a lot of conference games, and trying to work that in late season would be difficult.

[ybbodeus]

I'm gonna go download an Eric Carmen song from the mid-70's and weep quietly.

[JimR]

I'm gonna go download an Eric Carmen song from the mid-70's and weep quietly.

not I.

[roadrunner]

Syracuse/Pitt to the ACC...

Has this board discussed the indy situation with ACC in all other sports?  I'm stealing this rumor from Shaggybevo, but the general idea is that UT and Notre Dame are independent in football but all other sports go ACC.  UT/ND agree to 4 promised games with ACC member schools and then they can schedule whoever outside of that.

A theoretical Texas schedule would be:

4 ACC Games (not bad options there: Fla St, Ga Tech, Va Tech, Miami, BC, etc.)
OU
Rice
A&M
Notre Dame
BYU
2 more fill ins

Overall that's a pretty solid football schedule.  Basketball is definitely in a better conference and baseball is not suffering at all.

[Ron Brand]

Syracuse/Pitt to the ACC...

Has this board discussed the indy situation with ACC in all other sports?  I'm stealing this rumor from Shaggybevo, but the general idea is that UT and Notre Dame are independent in football but all other sports go ACC.  UT/ND agree to 4 promised games with ACC member schools and then they can schedule whoever outside of that.

A theoretical Texas schedule would be:

4 ACC Games (not bad options there: Fla St, Ga Tech, Va Tech, Miami, BC, etc.)
OU
Rice
A&M
Notre Dame
BYU
2 more fill ins

Overall that's a pretty solid football schedule.  Basketball is definitely in a better conference and baseball is not suffering at all.

That's started to shape up in the last couple of days, I think. No idea how true it is, but it's making the rounds.

I wonder if Texas would commit to some sort of series with Baylor to help smooth over the dissolution of the conference.

[AtascAstro]

Also, the ACC just unanimously voted to up their exit penalty to 20 million. They certainly appear confident.

[ybbodeus]

I'm gonna go download an Eric Carmen song from the mid-70's and weep quietly.

not I.

Noted. 

In reality I don't think this will end as poorly for KU, KSU, Iowa State or even Baylor as many are anticipating (or in the case of the Bears, hoping).  I would throw MO in there, but it's sounding more and more like they could be making a move, too.   

The notion that the departure of OU/UT and the satellites puts the nail in the conference's coffin may be right from the standpoint of the league's relevance, but The Big 12 still has a shot at holding, even with just four teams.  That presumes it can and will move quickly to add replacement teams and that at least half those teams come from an AQ conference.  Sounds like the Big East might be that conference. 

Gaining a few of those who don't get picked up elsewhere might help keep the conference in place and, thus, the tv contracts in force.  It's a shot, anyway.  Holding onto the AQ status for the long term might be a bit trickier, especially if they add nothing but teams from non-AQ conferrences.  I don't think they should be exclusive about that, though, nor do I think they will be.  They had best do a good blend. 

[WakePhil]

As a Wake Forest alum who was raised a Longhorn fan, this is a best case scenario. At a micro level, Wake's future is bleak, but macro issues working in the ACC's favor.

And it rained today. Good weekend.

[Phil_in_CS]

Syracuse/Pitt to the ACC...

Has this board discussed the indy situation with ACC in all other sports?  I'm stealing this rumor from Shaggybevo, but the general idea is that UT and Notre Dame are independent in football but all other sports go ACC.  UT/ND agree to 4 promised games with ACC member schools and then they can schedule whoever outside of that.

A theoretical Texas schedule would be:

4 ACC Games (not bad options there: Fla St, Ga Tech, Va Tech, Miami, BC, etc.)
OU
Rice
A&M
Notre Dame
BYU
2 more fill ins

Overall that's a pretty solid football schedule.  Basketball is definitely in a better conference and baseball is not suffering at all.

You'd get serious strength of schedule numbers, but it would be tough to run the tables for a national championship game. 2-3 off that list have very strong teams any given year.

[Lurch]

Is it Sunday?  'cause now we're back in the Pac-12 again.

[AtascAstro]

Interesting survey analysis from NYT, especially given the conference merry-go-round.

The Geography of College Footbal Fans

[Phil_in_CS]

Interesting survey analysis from NYT, especially given the conference merry-go-round.

The Geography of College Footbal Fans

thanks for posting that - very interesting.

[Navin R Johnson]

So according to that link there are more Auburn fans than Alabama fans? 

[Lurch]

The fuck?  There is no way that Texas has 2.2MM fans (#5??) and A&M is right behind with 2MM. 

[S.P. Rodriguez]

The fuck?  There is no way that Texas has 2.2MM fans (#5??) and A&M is right behind with 2MM. 

I'm not trying to stir the pot but why is your disbelief based on?  Enrollment?  Have you ever been to Kyle Field?  A&M Campus?

[JimR]

I'm not trying to stir the pot but why is your disbelief based on?  Enrollment?  Have you ever been to Kyle Field?  A&M Campus?

sure you are.

and, yes i have.

[JimR]

UT's first choice as of 30 min ago is to stay in the Big 12. the question is whether that will be possible.

[MusicMan]

I'm not trying to stir the pot but why is your disbelief based on?

I'd start with TV ratings for the past decade.

[subnuclear]

I'd start with TV ratings for the past decade.

Is that information available somewhere? That would be interesting.

[Andyzipp]

I'd start with TV ratings for the past decade.

Oh, we've been a closeted, beaten down bunch.  Some of us, well you'd never know what school we were pulling for over the last decade.

And if OSU wins Saturday..., the yard flags will go back into garages, t-shirts will make there way back to the bottom of the drawer and we'll go back to being anonymous and mousy.

[JimR]

Oh, we've been a closeted, beaten down bunch.  Some of us, well you'd never know what school we were pulling for over the last decade.

And if OSU wins Saturday..., the yard flags will go back into garages, t-shirts will make there way back to the bottom of the drawer and we'll go back to being anonymous and mousy.

Andy, where is the game? should be a good one.

[remy]

There are way more Baylor fans out there than that.  Most of us are just too afraid to admit it.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

sure you are.

and, yes i have.

Jim, I'm not sure why you want to continue down this path.  At this point, I have two wishes.  UT lands in a good conference and they find the value in continuing the UT/A&M game.  I'm not hopeful that will happen.  I apologize for any comments I made that contradict this attitude/view.  

If you've been to a game at Kyle Field, what did you think?  Did you walk away thinking it was a passive, semi-interested fan base?

Andy, you are killing me.  It's funny, admittedly.  But damnit man, be proud of your Aggie-ness! 

[JimR]

Jim, I'm not sure why you want to continue down this path.  At this point, I have two wishes.  UT lands in a good conference and they find the value in continuing the UT/A&M game.  I'm not hopeful that will happen.  I apologize for any comments I made that contradict this attitude/view.  

If you've been to a game at Kyle Field, what did you think?  Did you walk away thinking it was a passive, semi-interested fan base?

Andy, you are killing me.  It's funny, admittedly.  But damnit man, be proud of your Aggie-ness! 

Kyle Field has been as you describe in recent years. stands emptying by the 4th quarter just like other places do. interest should be up this year.

[Andyzipp]

Andy, where is the game? should be a good one.

College Station.  2:30 Saturday.

[Phil_in_CS]

The fuck?  There is no way that Texas has 2.2MM fans (#5??) and A&M is right behind with 2MM. 

I noted that too - some of the numbers were 'open sourced' and he said they claimed to have filtered out bogus replies. He noted Arkansas State initally ranked quite high until they adjusted the results.

TV ratings and the demographics watching are the key, of course. Young men are more susceptible to advertising and a very highly sought after market.

[Andyzipp]

Jim, I'm not sure why you want to continue down this path.  At this point, I have two wishes.  UT lands in a good conference and they find the value in continuing the UT/A&M game.  I'm not hopeful that will happen.  I apologize for any comments I made that contradict this attitude/view. 

If you've been to a game at Kyle Field, what did you think?  Did you walk away thinking it was a passive, semi-interested fan base?

Andy, you are killing me.  It's funny, admittedly.  But damnit man, be proud of your Aggie-ness! 

We talk a lot of shit about being great fans.  And it's completely true...if the team is winning.  This should be a good year for the Ags.  However, if we stumble or fall against OSU or Arkansas in Dallas in the next two weeks, interest will fall off dramatically.  Unfortunately, I think we split the two games.

I'm hoping for better, but preparing for what I've seen since roughly 2000 until the second half of last year. 

[Phil_in_CS]

We talk a lot of shit about being great fans.  And it's completely true...if the team is winning.  This should be a good year for the Ags.  However, if we stumble or fall against OSU or Arkansas in Dallas in the next two weeks, interest will fall off dramatically.  Unfortunately, I think we split the two games.

I'm hoping for better, but preparing for what I've seen since roughly 2000 until the second half of last year.  

I agree. The Aggie student body has changed enormously over the past decade or so. Just a big state school these days.

edit to add: most of our great traditions had to do with the fact we usually sucked and got beat all the time. The idea that people will pick a college based on a winning football team is crazy to me, but they do. The team doing well during the (cheating) Sherrill era and later has brought in a lot of students to A&M who are neither Ag or Mechanical. Or military - the Corps is half the size of the early 80's Corps despite the fact that enrollment has gone from the low 30's to over 50,000.

[Waldo]

Is that information available somewhere? That would be interesting.

Found this from Shaggy, although it's only for the Houston market: http://blog.chron.com/sportsmedia/2010/06/some-college-football-ratings-to-ponder/

Summary:

2009 - Texas has eight games in the top 15 (games against NU, A&M, TT, OU, OSU, KU, Mizzou, CU); A&M's only appearance is its game against Texas.
2008 - Texas has three games in the top 11 (games against TT, OU, OSU); A&M nowhere to be found.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

We talk a lot of shit about being great fans.  And it's completely true...if the team is winning.  This should be a good year for the Ags.  However, if we stumble or fall against OSU or Arkansas in Dallas in the next two weeks, interest will fall off dramatically.  Unfortunately, I think we split the two games.

I'm hoping for better, but preparing for what I've seen since roughly 2000 until the second half of last year. 

WTF.... Admittedly, I haven't gone to a game since I was a student.  But if the game was on, I was watching.  If not, I'm checking scores and chatting with a friend, who has season tickets.  He never mentioned people leaving early.  It's not something you can really spot on TV (probably because they are so busy panning the small section of the Corp and their boot-chasers).  

I remember when they changed admissions standards in the mid 90's, when I was there.  It was especially evident when it came to bonfire.  You used to have these country kids who could work all damn day.  Then we got honor-roll students who didn't know what pliers looked like and couldn't understand why you didn't wear gloves on both hands while swinging an axe.  

But damn, people stayed through the entire game.  You never leave when your team is on the field.  

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I agree. The Aggie student body has changed enormously over the past decade or so. Just a big state school these days.

edit to add: most of our great traditions had to do with the fact we usually sucked and got beat all the time. The idea that people will pick a college based on a winning football team is crazy to me, but they do. The team doing well during the (cheating) Sherrill era and later has brought in a lot of students to A&M who are neither Ag or Mechanical. Or military - the Corps is half the size of the early 80's Corps despite the fact that enrollment has gone from the low 30's to over 50,000.

Next you'll tell me the Greek community has doubled.

[hostros7]

I agree. The Aggie student body has changed enormously over the past decade or so. Just a big state school these days.

edit to add: most of our great traditions had to do with the fact we usually sucked and got beat all the time. The idea that people will pick a college based on a winning football team is crazy to me, but they do. The team doing well during the (cheating) Sherrill era and later has brought in a lot of students to A&M who are neither Ag or Mechanical. Or military - the Corps is half the size of the early 80's Corps despite the fact that enrollment has gone from the low 30's to over 50,000.

This sounds like progress. 

[Ron Brand]

edit to add: most of our great traditions had to do with the fact we usually sucked and got beat all the time. The idea that people will pick a college based on a winning football team is crazy to me, but they do. The team doing well during the (cheating) Sherrill era and later has brought in a lot of students to A&M who are neither Ag or Mechanical. Or military - the Corps is half the size of the early 80's Corps despite the fact that enrollment has gone from the low 30's to over 50,000.

I think another part of the climb in enrollment is the Top 10%/8%/whatever it is at UT that kicks a lot of kids away and further removes A&M from its traditional type of student.

[JimR]

WTF.... Admittedly, I haven't gone to a game since I was a student.  But if the game was on, I was watching.  If not, I'm checking scores and chatting with a friend, who has season tickets.  He never mentioned people leaving early.  It's not something you can really spot on TV (probably because they are so busy panning the small section of the Corp and their boot-chasers).  

I remember when they changed admissions standards in the mid 90's, when I was there.  It was especially evident when it came to bonfire.  You used to have these country kids who could work all damn day.  Then we got honor-roll students who didn't know what pliers looked like and couldn't understand why you didn't wear gloves on both hands while swinging an axe.  

But damn, people stayed through the entire game.  You never leave when your team is on the field.  

you are living in the distant past.

[Phil_in_CS]

I live here - I see this every day. The difference isn't more city kids, it is the kids coming here to get a BA in whatever. The mindset of a kid completing an engineering degree and that of a kid getting a BA in Psychology are completely different. Seriously, A&M gives Art degrees now, and has a music performance department. There's nothing wrong with those degrees, but those aren't the types of kids normally associated with A&M.

I tossed the 2011 enrollment numbers into excel: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/Phil_in_CS/AMStudentbreakout.jpg
(source is a PDF I pulled from tamu.edu)

Those are fall numbers too, so there are a huge number of freshmen in the Engineering and Vet Med programs that will not be in that major more than a semester or two.

[Phil_in_CS]

I think another part of the climb in enrollment is the Top 10%/8%/whatever it is at UT that kicks a lot of kids away and further removes A&M from its traditional type of student.

That too - I know a lot of Texas alumns my age whose kids are at A&M due to the top 10% rule.

[jbm]

I live here - I see this every day. The difference isn't more city kids, it is the kids coming here to get a BA in whatever. The mindset of a kid completing an engineering degree and that of a kid getting a BA in Psychology are completely different. Seriously, A&M gives Art degrees now, and has a music performance department. There's nothing wrong with those degrees, but those aren't the types of kids normally associated with A&M.

So what is the 2% measure up to these days?  Those art and music majors are most likely 2%ers.  Probably vote democratic too. 

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

The lack of Bonfire changed the student body's attitude, too.  Only the hard-core 2nd and 3rd generation kids from Aggie families really had any interest in keeping that going, and the ones who didn't care didn't realize what they were losing as far as on-campus solidarity.  The Greek enrollment went up 60% from when I was a freshman (the year Bonfire fell) to when I graduated.

[chuck]

Interesting survey analysis from NYT, especially given the conference merry-go-round.

The Geography of College Footbal Fans

So there are 25% more Rice football fans than UH football fans? Or is that simply reflective of the number of alumni literate enough to fill out a survey?

[HudsonHawk]

So there are 25% more Rice football fans than UH football fans? Or is that simply reflective of the number of alumni literate enough to fill out a survey?

Ahem....Fuck you.

[Navin R Johnson]

This survey also claims that Georgia Tech has 600K more fans than the University of Georgia and 400K more than LSU.

Of course this makes much more sense when you go to the source of the data the author is citing and the 1st thing on their webpage is. "Important: this map is highly inaccurate and should be understood only as a demonstration, and not as any kind of reliable data yet."

LOLNYTIMES

[Lurch]

Then we got honor-roll students who ...couldn't understand why you didn't wear gloves on both hands while swinging an axe.  

Ok, I'll bite...

[Ron Brand]

Ok, I'll bite...

This is my rifle, this is my gun...

[Lurch]

This is my rifle, this is my gun...

They save one sheep-skin glove for fun?

[Ron Brand]

They save one sheep-skin glove for fun?

I hope it's ribbed.

[chuck]

Ok, I'll bite...

Do you know what? I thought about this for a minute and figured it out. Nevertheless I will continue to be happy to hire A&M graduates to chop my firewood as necessary.

[Mr. Happy]

Do you know what? I thought about this for a minute and figured it out. Nevertheless I will continue to be happy to hire A&M graduates to chop my firewood as necessary.

You're brutal, dude!

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Do you know what? I thought about this for a minute and figured it out. Nevertheless I will continue to be happy to hire A&M graduates to chop my firewood as necessary.

I hired a kid from Tarleton State at half the price of a real Aggie.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Ok, I'll bite...

Ever seen an axe fly through woods full of people?  No glove on your base hand, ever. 

And yes, apparently I am living in the distant past.  Do I have to admit I'm old?  is 37 old?

[Andyzipp]

Ever seen an axe fly through woods full of people?  No glove on your base hand, ever. 

And yes, apparently I am living in the distant past.  Do I have to admit I'm old?  is 37 old?

Some of us do remember safety training when it comes to fucking the trees.  And that's a technical term.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Some of us do remember safety training when it comes to fucking the trees.  And that's a technical term.

Exactly.  Why would you ever be ashamed of that? It is what makes you an Aggie!

[Andyzipp]

Exactly.  Why would you ever be ashamed of that? It is what makes you an Aggie!

Here's where we lose what few people are still following this conversation.  I'm not ashamed of being an Aggie, or having attended A&M after I transferred from UT-Austin.  But, and I hate to sound like an old man here, things have changed, even from 1994, when I graduated.  I attribute it to a couple of things: the top 10% rule and the loss of the on-campus Bonfire.

While the stereotype that A&M only draws rural east-Texas kids hasn't really been true since the late 70's, the kids that used to go to A&M did tend to be from more conservative upbringings and tended to really buy into the message of what A&M was supposed to represent.  That hasn't died completely, but the top 10% rule has certainly altered the demographics of the kids who attend.

But Bonfire being gone for 12 years now has had a huge impact on the relationship that students at A&M have with the school and each other.  It was very much a unifying activity for students from every walk of life, and tied individuals to A&M.  Maybe that's silly, and before I attended, I can certainly understand not getting it.  I'm not sure that I can explain it nearly 20 years later, but it's something that was there that is missing today.

Maybe that's growth, and maybe A&M will at some point be solely recognized in the state for being a really strong school academically, and that's what kids should be basing their college choices on at the end of the day.  But that doesn't mean I don't mourn the loss of some of the experiences I had.  On the other hand, I would guess to most college students, I'm an old fuck who doesn't know what I'm talking about anyway.

[Lurch]

Ever seen an axe fly through woods full of people?

Ok, I'll bite...

[Bench]

Ever seen an axe fly through woods full of people?  No glove on your base hand, ever. 

Wait, so it wasn't a metaphor? 

Why are the woods full of people? 

[MusicMan]

Why are the woods full of people? 

From the outside, you wouldn't understand.

[Andyzipp]

Wait, so it wasn't a metaphor? 

Why are the woods full of people? 

Because a few thousand of us, for 4-5 weekends in October would go cut down trees for bonfire.

[subnuclear]

This survey also claims that Georgia Tech has 600K more fans than the University of Georgia and 400K more than LSU.

Of course this makes much more sense when you go to the source of the data the author is citing and the 1st thing on their webpage is. "Important: this map is highly inaccurate and should be understood only as a demonstration, and not as any kind of reliable data yet."

LOLNYTIMES

Not so much NYTimes as Nate Silver.

[Ron Brand]

Here's where we lose what few people are still following this conversation.  I'm not ashamed of being an Aggie, or having attended A&M after I transferred from UT-Austin.  But, and I hate to sound like an old man here, things have changed, even from 1994, when I graduated.  I attribute it to a couple of things: the top 10% rule and the loss of the on-campus Bonfire.

While the stereotype that A&M only draws rural east-Texas kids hasn't really been true since the late 70's, the kids that used to go to A&M did tend to be from more conservative upbringings and tended to really buy into the message of what A&M was supposed to represent.  That hasn't died completely, but the top 10% rule has certainly altered the demographics of the kids who attend.

But Bonfire being gone for 12 years now has had a huge impact on the relationship that students at A&M have with the school and each other.  It was very much a unifying activity for students from every walk of life, and tied individuals to A&M.  Maybe that's silly, and before I attended, I can certainly understand not getting it.  I'm not sure that I can explain it nearly 20 years later, but it's something that was there that is missing today.

Maybe that's growth, and maybe A&M will at some point be solely recognized in the state for being a really strong school academically, and that's what kids should be basing their college choices on at the end of the day.  But that doesn't mean I don't mourn the loss of some of the experiences I had.  On the other hand, I would guess to most college students, I'm an old fuck who doesn't know what I'm talking about anyway.

Bonfire must have been a really big deal. My wife mentions it every now and then, not in any detail, but I can tell it was meaningful. At UT, I got exactly what I was looking for which was something along the lines of "You have a goal? There are resources here to help you get there, but you're going to have to find them and use them on your own, bud." There really wasn't any common spirit or activity outside of football that drew students together in the way that Bonfire seems to have. Maybe it was there in the past, but by the time I got there (77-81) it was gone. The commonality I found at UT was in the friends I made and the things we did together, not anything on a large scale that involved thousands of people.

Of course, at the time I would have rejected that out of hand as rank conformism and sneered my way further outside.

[Andyzipp]

Bonfire must have been a really big deal. My wife mentions it every now and then, not in any detail, but I can tell it was meaningful. At UT, I got exactly what I was looking for which was something along the lines of "You have a goal? There are resources here to help you get there, but you're going to have to find them and use them on your own, bud." There really wasn't any common spirit or activity outside of football that drew students together in the way that Bonfire seems to have. Maybe it was there in the past, but by the time I got there (77-81) it was gone. The commonality I found at UT was in the friends I made and the things we did together, not anything on a large scale that involved thousands of people.

Of course, at the time I would have rejected that out of hand as rank conformism and sneered my way further outside.

Yeah, but a few thousand out of 40k (at the time) wasn't that big of a mob.  It's kind of like the Corps, at fewer than 2,000 cadets now being the only thing on camera during games, it's a small piece of the a bigger puzzle, but they were both important to the A&M experience.

[HudsonHawk]

But that doesn't mean I don't mourn the loss of some of the experiences I had.  On the other hand, I would guess to most college students, I'm an old fuck who doesn't know what I'm talking about anyway.

Mrs. Hawk, Class of '88, has said pretty much the same thing.  Not the part about being an old fuck, but the part about how being an Aggie today is not the same as it was 25 years ago.  Of course, in 1988, they were probably complaining that it wasn't the same as it was in 1963...before they let all them women in and the "A" and the "M" actually stood for something.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Here's where we lose what few people are still following this conversation.  I'm not ashamed of being an Aggie, or having attended A&M after I transferred from UT-Austin.  But, and I hate to sound like an old man here, things have changed, even from 1994, when I graduated.  I attribute it to a couple of things: the top 10% rule and the loss of the on-campus Bonfire.

While the stereotype that A&M only draws rural east-Texas kids hasn't really been true since the late 70's, the kids that used to go to A&M did tend to be from more conservative upbringings and tended to really buy into the message of what A&M was supposed to represent.  That hasn't died completely, but the top 10% rule has certainly altered the demographics of the kids who attend.

But Bonfire being gone for 12 years now has had a huge impact on the relationship that students at A&M have with the school and each other.  It was very much a unifying activity for students from every walk of life, and tied individuals to A&M.  Maybe that's silly, and before I attended, I can certainly understand not getting it.  I'm not sure that I can explain it nearly 20 years later, but it's something that was there that is missing today.

Maybe that's growth, and maybe A&M will at some point be solely recognized in the state for being a really strong school academically, and that's what kids should be basing their college choices on at the end of the day.  But that doesn't mean I don't mourn the loss of some of the experiences I had.  On the other hand, I would guess to most college students, I'm an old fuck who doesn't know what I'm talking about anyway.

No need to explain, as I feel the same way.  I gave up trying to explain it a long time ago.  Every once and a while, I try and then remember why I gave up trying to explain it.  

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Yeah, but a few thousand out of 40k (at the time) wasn't that big of a mob.  It's kind of like the Corps, at fewer than 2,000 cadets now being the only thing on camera during games, it's a small piece of the a bigger puzzle, but they were both important to the A&M experience.

But for those two thousand or so, Bonfire night was more than Yell Practice before the UT game. 

[Phil_in_CS]

Bonfire cut and stack brought together people from all parts of the university for a common experience. Business majors, engineers, cadets, ag majors and so forth. People bonded by doing hard work together. A&M's goal was that if you showed up and gave your all, you were one of the group. That's a big reason greeks were despised, since you were buying friends rather than earning them.

That's a distant memory now. The powers that be (both in the A&M system and the legislature) wanted A&M to be a big diverse state school, and that's what it is now. There's nothing terrible about that, but it has been done at the cost of the uniqueness that A&M used to have.

I'm in the class of 85, and that uniqueness was already going away rapidly. 

[jbm]

No need to explain, as I feel the same way.  I gave up trying to explain it a long time ago.  Every once and a while, I try and then remember why I gave up trying to explain it.  

Just embrace it.  Some change is for the better.  

Although I must say as a UT Grad, the bonfire was the thing I admired most about the Ags.  I would venture over there to visit friends on the way back to Houston.  A huge fire with hammered corps people lighting their cigars on the thing was quite a spectacle.

[JimR]

Just embrace it.  Some change is for the better.  

Although I must say as a UT Grad, the bonfire was the thing I admired most about the Ags.  I would venture over there to visit friends on the way back to Houston.  A huge fire with hammered corps people lighting their cigars on the thing was quite a spectacle.

a bonfire was a tradition at UT too back in my parents' day. UT stopped it before there was a tragedy, and i am not sure when the last one was.

[MusicMan]

Although I must say as a UT Grad, the bonfire was the thing I admired most about the Ags. 

Silver Taps.  Always, Silver Taps.

[HudsonHawk]

That's a big reason greeks were despised, since you were buying friends rather than earning them.

My understanding was that Greeks were frowned upon at A&M because that meant association with something *other* than being an Aggie.  That a true Aggie always put the school above any other association.

[Phil_in_CS]

Silver Taps.  Always, Silver Taps.

My niece is in school now - I asked her how many showed up for that this month. "Hundred, couple hundred" was the answer. Thousands did in the early 80s - maybe half the on-campus students. That's a very good measure, since that's a thing that is neither convenient or fun.

[Phil_in_CS]

My understanding was that Greeks were frowned upon at A&M because that meant association with something *other* than being an Aggie.  That a true Aggie always put the school above any other association.

That too, but the idea that you could belong if you showed up and did the work was very strong. What your daddy did didn't matter as much as what you did.

[jbm]

a bonfire was a tradition at UT too back in my parents' day. UT stopped it before there was a tragedy, and i am not sure when the last one was.

Thanks for that tidbit.  I had never heard of a UT bonfire.  

[Rebel Jew]

Here's where we lose what few people are still following this conversation.  I'm not ashamed of being an Aggie, or having attended A&M after I transferred from UT-Austin.  But, and I hate to sound like an old man here, things have changed, even from 1994, when I graduated.  I attribute it to a couple of things: the top 10% rule and the loss of the on-campus Bonfire.

While the stereotype that A&M only draws rural east-Texas kids hasn't really been true since the late 70's, the kids that used to go to A&M did tend to be from more conservative upbringings and tended to really buy into the message of what A&M was supposed to represent.  That hasn't died completely, but the top 10% rule has certainly altered the demographics of the kids who attend.

But Bonfire being gone for 12 years now has had a huge impact on the relationship that students at A&M have with the school and each other.  It was very much a unifying activity for students from every walk of life, and tied individuals to A&M.  Maybe that's silly, and before I attended, I can certainly understand not getting it.  I'm not sure that I can explain it nearly 20 years later, but it's something that was there that is missing today.

Maybe that's growth, and maybe A&M will at some point be solely recognized in the state for being a really strong school academically, and that's what kids should be basing their college choices on at the end of the day.  But that doesn't mean I don't mourn the loss of some of the experiences I had.  On the other hand, I would guess to most college students, I'm an old fuck who doesn't know what I'm talking about anyway.

My friends and I drove up to bonfire once when I was in high school even though all my family were longhorns. It was a huge deal, and I also watched it on TV with fascination almost every year since I was a little rebel jew.

That being said, don't you think a lot of what you talk about has as much to do with the decline of the football program since Mack Brown took over at Texas?

[Phil_in_CS]

That being said, don't you think a lot of what you talk about has as much to do with the decline of the football program since Mack Brown took over at Texas?

nope. As JimR has pointed out, that series is done and we're talking about what it will take to step up to be competitive in the SEC. That's a big step, as we've been only sporadically competitive in the Big 12.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Just embrace it.  Some change is for the better.  

Although I must say as a UT Grad, the bonfire was the thing I admired most about the Ags.  I would venture over there to visit friends on the way back to Houston.  A huge fire with hammered corps people lighting their cigars on the thing was quite a spectacle.

One objection.  In my time most of the folks out there were NOT in the corp.

[Rebel Jew]

nope. As JimR has pointed out, that series is done and we're talking about what it will take to step up to be competitive in the SEC. That's a big step, as we've been only sporadically competitive in the Big 12.

That's not what I mean. A&M's football decline has coincided with the decline of devotional interest among fans. I'm sure there are other factors, but that's a hard thing to ignore.

[Andyzipp]

My friends and I drove up to bonfire once when I was in high school even though all my family were longhorns. It was a huge deal, and I also watched it on TV with fascination almost every year since I was a little rebel jew.

That being said, don't you think a lot of what you talk about has as much to do with the decline of the football program since Mack Brown took over at Texas?

As anyone could tell you, A&M has sucked at football in various decades, but the loyalty was greater in the past than it is now.  But kids have more options these days as well.

Like someone else said, A&M is a big, (more) diverse, state school, for good or ill.

[ybbodeus]

This survey also claims that Georgia Tech has 600K more fans than the University of Georgia and 400K more than LSU.

Of course this makes much more sense when you go to the source of the data the author is citing and the 1st thing on their webpage is. "Important: this map is highly inaccurate and should be understood only as a demonstration, and not as any kind of reliable data yet."

LOLNYTIMES

Not so much NYTimes as Nate Silver.

The survey's link itself says it's highly unreliable, so I'm not sure the charts should be taken with more than two to three grains of salt.  I think I read that it was log-in fan polls that were the source of the data. 

Baylor still has a bonfire, but I would imagine it's iffy on doing one this year. 

[HudsonHawk]

Baylor still has a bonfire, but I would imagine it's iffy on doing one this year. 

UofH had a bonfire when I was there.  I don't know if they still do though.

[EasTexAstro]

Couldn't they all go for rain dances this year?

[Navin R Johnson]

UofH had a bonfire when I was there.  I don't know if they still do though.

Pretty sure it went away when they got Frontier Fiesta back up and running.

[HudsonHawk]

Pretty sure it went away when they got Frontier Fiesta back up and running.

Frontier Fiesta is in the spring.  They killed Spring Fair and the Perpetual Park Party when they got FF back going, but I'm not sure what that had to do with the Homecoming bonfire.

[Navin R Johnson]

Best Perpetual Park Party ended when Snow (of that shitty Informer song fame) got harassed (and punched as the legend goes) and then chased off campus by unruly students.

[HudsonHawk]

Best Perpetual Park Party ended when Snow (of that shitty Informer song fame) got harassed (and punched as the legend goes) and then chased off campus by unruly students.

I ran the PPP in '88 and '89.  Fantastic shows. 

[Navin R Johnson]

They had some really good talent out there, the Snow booking aside.  I wish it would come back.

[BizidyDizidy]

Oklahoma throws Beebee under the bus

[HudsonHawk]

They had some really good talent out there, the Snow booking aside.  I wish it would come back.

Lots of good stuff there.  I remember in '88, I think, one of the bands was a band from New Orleans called Shot Down In Ecuador Jr.  On the drive from NO to Houston, their drummer go arrested, so they called up the drummer for The Del Fuegos to come fill in.  I even talked to Billy Gibbons about playing in '89, and he wanted to do it, but we couldn't make the schedule work.

[Navin R Johnson]

Found a Daily Cougar archive on the Snow performance.

Sponsored in part by the Student Program Board, the event featured alternative rock group L7 and Snow as its headliners

"We also had a different set-up this year," said Frank San Miguel, the large-stage committee chairman. "There was a closed-off area for those with alcohol. They had to buy drinks in this area, but they also had to drink in that area."

Overall, the blowout was a success.

"It was the biggest Park Party ever and the event was very smooth," said San Miguel. "We were ahead of schedule for most of the show."

After Snow performed "Lonely Monday Morning" and the familiar tune "Informer" the soirée turned sour.

"Snow barely got through one-fourth of the song," San Miguel said. Then things took a turn for the worse.

Before Snow could get into his song, he began complaining about the sound not being loud enough by shouting into his microphone,"Turn the shit up, turn the shit up!" said Ted Hill, a sound board operator for the show.

"We kept trying to tell him that if we turned it up any louder, we'd blow out the speakers," Hill said.

Snow then decided in mid-song to leave the stage. Headed toward his Hilton Hotel room, he cut through the audience instead of using a limousine provided by SPB.

"He went straight through the crowd, but he had been doing that all day long with no problems," San Miguel said.

But his fans weren't so adoring that night.

"A crowd of people began following him and gave him a hard time about cutting the performance short," said San Miguel. "Quite a few people there were also not his biggest fans."

Hill said, "From what I hear, one guy even told him to get his ass back on stage."

San Miguel said the artist was subsequently hit in the head with a bottle. Not knowing who hit him, Snow turned and hit a UT student who is not believed by UHPD to be the person who threw the bottle.

After the altercation, pushing and shoving ensued and Snow rushed backstage. No charges were filed and L7 took the stage, finished their set and the rest of the evening went as planned.

[Lurch]

A week old, but a good primer (doesn't display in IE... try firefox instead)

Longhorn Network, Third Tier Rights, the Business of College Football, and Delusion

[Phil_in_CS]

That's not what I mean. A&M's football decline has coincided with the decline of devotional interest among fans. I'm sure there are other factors, but that's a hard thing to ignore.

Closer to an inverse of that. In the days when the Aggies sucked every year, as opposed to some years, the fan base was much more motivated than they are now.

[MusicMan]

Oklahoma throws Beebee under the bus

#OUdemands should be fun to follow.

[MusicMan]

PS - this clearly means OU doesn't have the votes to go PAC without Texas; and Texas isn't making the LHN concessions that PAC wants.

[JimR]

PS - this clearly means OU doesn't have the votes to go PAC without Texas; and Texas isn't making the LHN concessions that PAC wants.

UT thinks there may be no invitation to only OU/OSU.

[MusicMan]

UT thinks there may be no invitation to only OU/OSU.

High stakes poker.  I like the guy playing our hand.

[JimR]

High stakes poker.  I like the guy playing our hand.

me, too. Big 12 ain't dead by a long shot.

[ybbodeus]

Unless adding OU/OSU would allow them to renegotiate the contract they just signed last year, I can't see how adding fewer tv sets than some California zip codes have makes a ton of financial sense--at least not for the now.  Sure, that's undervaluing the interest in OU nationally, but it's a financial drain on the "divide by" that the current 12 teams are anticipating they'll receive.  Do you figure the PAC 12 thinks it can diversify and raid UT's package to make up the difference?  Don't see how (or why) Texas would ever agree to that arrangement.

[Ebby Calvin]

Pac 12 declines expansion.

[Rebel Jew]

Unless adding OU/OSU would allow them to renegotiate the contract they just signed last year, I can't see how adding fewer tv sets than some California zip codes have makes a ton of financial sense--at least not for the now.  Sure, that's undervaluing the interest in OU nationally, but it's a financial drain on the "divide by" that the current 12 teams are anticipating they'll receive.  Do you figure the PAC 12 thinks it can diversify and raid UT's package to make up the difference?  Don't see how (or why) Texas would ever agree to that arrangement.

I really don't get the appeal of joining the PAC 10. Having lived in two PAC 10 markets in my life (LA and SF) and visited pretty much every PAC 10 city except for wherever the hell Washington State and Oregon State are, it's very obvious that college sports is pretty far down the totem pole of public interest. I guess it would allow UT and the Oklahomas to recruit more in LA and Phoenix, but I don't see the overall benefit beyond just wanting to stay up with the megaconference trend.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Oklahoma throws Beebee under the bus

I don't know what this all means, but, David Boren is one of the most "connected"  presidents of any school in the country. He's got more pull than any Texan wants to admit.

[JimR]

I don't know what this all means, but, David Boren is one of the most "connected"  presidents of any school in the country. He's got more pull than any Texan wants to admit.

OU supported Beebee, and Boren has never said any of this to Dodds face. OU is/was posturing because they knew the PAC 12 was not going to happen.

[The Spleen]

Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven.

-DeLoss Dodds

[JimR]

Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven.

-DeLoss Dodds

you do not know what the fuck you are talking about.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Beebe's allegedly out.  And the picture on this post could not be more perfect.

[drew corleone]

This has been one giant clusterfuck.

[Ron Brand]

This has been one giant clusterfuck.

You mean how Texas ended up staying in the Big 12 with OU, keeping the LHN, probably adding BYU and replacing the commissioner they didn't want anyway? Or do you mean the part where OU learned they couldn't go to the PAC-12 and didn't have too many other options?

[JimR]

This has been one giant clusterfuck.

no, it has not. DeLoss was masterful. you just do not know.

[Lurch]

You mean how Texas ended up staying in the Big 12 with OU, keeping the LHN, probably adding BYU and replacing the commissioner they didn't want anyway? Or do you mean the part where OU learned they couldn't go to the PAC-12 and didn't have too many other options?

Or the part where Aggy got their SEC! SEC! SEC! rally put on hold?  Other than the lack of productivity at work, this has been quite entertaining.

[MusicMan]

You mean how Texas ended up staying in the Big 12 with OU, keeping the LHN, probably adding BYU and replacing the commissioner they didn't want anyway? Or do you mean the part where OU learned they couldn't go to the PAC-12 and didn't have too many other options?

Ding ding ding.

Put another way:

OU drives the Pac Trail

[Waldo]

OU drives the Pac Trail

Wow.

[austro]

"Your schooner has reached an impasse." Pure gold.

[Jacksonian]

I was thinking yesterday that from a big time college football perspective this is all a tempest in a teacup.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I was thinking yesterday that from a big time college football perspective this is all a tempest in a teacup.

That, or it's not over.  I don't know either way.  Needless to say, I am still looking for articles that offer some indication if it's really over or just building up for the next phase.

If I were to speculate, I'd wager a secondary school will move, if anything.  Missouri has some market appeal to the SEC, from what I'm reading. 

[JimR]

That, or it's not over.  I don't know either way.  Needless to say, I am still looking for articles that offer some indication if it's really over or just building up for the next phase.

If I were to speculate, I'd wager a secondary school will move, if anything.  Missouri has some market appeal to the SEC, from what I'm reading. 

just keep on reading. let me know what Mizzou wants to do.

[Jacksonian]

That, or it's not over.  I don't know either way.  Needless to say, I am still looking for articles that offer some indication if it's really over or just building up for the next phase.

If I were to speculate, I'd wager a secondary school will move, if anything.  Missouri has some market appeal to the SEC, from what I'm reading. 

I mean that whatever happens with the Big 12 or Texas or OU for football it really doesn't seem to matter.

[JimR]

I mean that whatever happens with the Big 12 or Texas or OU for football it really doesn't seem to matter.

maybe not to you. to the parties involved, it matter a lot.

[Jacksonian]

maybe not to you. to the parties involved, it matter a lot.

Texas and OU and the other schools in the conference are who they are.  How they're affiliated in regard only to football doesn't seem to me to matter much.  Texas could be in any BCS aligned conference and nothing would change for them in football.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

just keep on reading. let me know what Mizzou wants to do.

Their Chancellor, serving as the Chairman of the Board of Directors for the Big 12, indicates they will stay in the Big 12 if they can resolve the league issues.  That leaves room for all the rumors and speculations of MU finding a place in the SEC.  

I take the MU leadership at their word that they prefer the Big 12.  But "resolving the differences" within the Big 12 is no small obstacle.  

[drew corleone]

You mean how Texas ended up staying in the Big 12 with OU, keeping the LHN, probably adding BYU and replacing the commissioner they didn't want anyway? Or do you mean the part where OU learned they couldn't go to the PAC-12 and didn't have too many other options?

No, I'm kind of happy about that. Dodds played everyone like chumps and got exactly what he wanted.

I mean the daily media circus... speculation and grossly negligent reporting... wailing and gnashing of teeth from everyone with an opinion and a twitter/facebook/blog/message board account.

I'm glad it's finally over so that we can talk about, you know, actual football.

[Lurch]

I mean that whatever happens with the Big 12 or Texas or OU for football it really doesn't seem to matter.

It certainly matters if it impacts LHN.

Great read on the UT athletics program from an old Texas Monthly

[Ron Brand]

No, I'm kind of happy about that. Dodds played everyone like chumps and got exactly what he wanted.

I mean the daily media circus... speculation and grossly negligent reporting... wailing and gnashing of teeth from everyone with an opinion and a twitter/facebook/blog/message board account.

I'm glad it's finally over so that we can talk about, you know, actual football.

Gotta feed the beast. Just be glad you're not the food.

And now OU has a clear understanding of how things are, and the necessary pressure has again been brought against realignment so the megaconferences aren't here just yet.

[JimR]

The LHN is fine.

[drew corleone]

The LHN is fine.

I can't wait to actually get the thing. TWC obviously didn't believe my idle threat to cancel service if they didn't add it.

[Lurch]

I can't wait to actually get the thing. TWC obviously didn't believe my idle threat to cancel service if they didn't add it.

I would easily jump to Verizon or Grande if they were here.

[BizidyDizidy]

I can't wait to actually get the thing. TWC obviously didn't believe my idle threat to cancel service if they didn't add it.

What the fuck are you going to switch to? It's a lot easier on them when no one carries it.

[Jacksonian]

It certainly matters if it impacts LHN.

Great read on the UT athletics program from an old Texas Monthly

I was only referring to the impact on the gridiron.  But the LHN stuff is also tempest in a teacup.  Texas could practically be the Big 12 conference on their own.

[MusicMan]

The LHN is fine.

Some of the stuff started showing up on YouTube.  I will be SO hooked on this once U-Verse adds it.

[Duke]

I can't wait to actually get the thing. TWC obviously didn't believe my idle threat to cancel service if they didn't add it.

Me either.  I guess they know that Dish and Direct don't have it either.

[Waldo]

FWIW (Richard Justice alert):

Justice was interviewed on 104.9 this afternoon.  At the Astros press conference today, David Barron apparently asked Drayton (probably as a barb) what he thought of A&M going to the SEC, and Drayton emphatically told him that it wasn't going to happen and bet him two Whataburger lunches.  For all the crap Justice has been worth throughout the years, he did have a good line: "Drayton will gladly spend $100 million on Carlos Lee, but the idea of spending $10-12 on a sportswriter is not his idea of a good time."

I guess Drayton's on board for financing any of Baylor's legal fights.

[Andyzipp]

FWIW (Richard Justice alert):

Justice was interviewed on 104.9 this afternoon.  At the Astros press conference today, David Barron apparently asked Drayton what he thought of A&M going to the SEC, and Drayton emphatically told him that it wasn't going to happen.  I guess Drayton's on board for financing any legal fights.

Neither Drayton nor Boone Pickens are involved in this decision.

[ybbodeus]

Drayton's not giving his money to any legal fights, and he's not giving any money to an on-campus stadium, either.  He's going to be gifting the university more in the area of endowment/scholarships, which is far more vital in my view.  A lot of Baylor people are on board with the notion that he's gonna be the OCS daddy, but he's been rather emphatic that he's not going to rush into that kind of decision.  Someone else will likely step up first.

Hell with all that!  Game of the weekend's in Collie Station.  Why the hell isn't Gameday there?  Goofy.  They in Tuscaloosa?   I like the aggies to return the favor on the stoolwaters with a late fg to win.

[JimR]

Neither Drayton nor Boone Pickens are involved in this decision.

yep aTm is leaving with the Big 12's blessing....after they pay.

[Jacksonian]

Hell with all that!  Game of the weekend's in Collie Station.  Why the hell isn't Gameday there?  Goofy.  They in Tuscaloosa?  

WV

[DVauthrin]

Some of the stuff started showing up on YouTube.  I will be SO hooked on this once U-Verse adds it.

There's a guy that has posted numerous youtube LHN clips on shaggybevo.   The quality is very impressive and it's easy to see why Dodds wouldn't budge on it during negotiations.

[Andyzipp]

yep aTm is leaving with the Big 12's blessing....after they pay.

Which we've been trying to do for over a month now.  Both sides know the amount and everyone except one school seems ready to move on.

[JimR]

Which we've been trying to do for over a month now.  Both sides know the amount and everyone except one school seems ready to move on.

i think that one will come around soon.

[ybbodeus]

So do I, but it wasn't just one school, either. It was initially, until a few other folks realized the process needed to be slowed down a bit.  Believe me, I understand the aggie's frustration, and I get my fair share of it here at the office.  However, this was never about, "You can't go,"--not really; it was about there are potential repercussion if you do, so let's not rush it.

[Andyzipp]

So do I, but it wasn't just one school, either. It was initially, until a few other folks realized the process needed to be slowed down a bit.  Believe me, I understand the aggie's frustration, and I get my fair share of it here at the office.  However, this was never about, "You can't go,"--not really; it was about there are potential repercussion if you do, so let's not rush it.

Would someone just take our check?

[Lurch]

Would someone just take our check?

Is it going to clear?

[Andyzipp]

Is it going to clear?

Our athletic program isn't in near the financial straits that Geoff Ketchum / Chip Brown would have you believe.

[Phil_in_CS]

Our athletic program isn't in near the financial straits that Geoff Ketchum / Chip Brown would have you believe.

Now that we've finished paying Fran, anyway.

[ybbodeus]

Would someone just take our check?

We're gonna need two forms of I.D., at a minimum--preferably not Liucci's.

[Phil_in_CS]

Maybe we got the check to a check cashing place and brought the cash the party

http://blog.chron.com/aggies/2011/09/sharp-%E2%80%98shortly%E2%80%99-on-sec-announcement/

Sharp: Expect SEC announcement “shortly”
COLLEGE STATION – I attended Midnight Yell Practice and caught up with new chancellor John Sharp on the track – or what used to be the track – afterward. Sharp told me to expect an announcement that A&M will officially enter the Southeastern Conference “shortly.”

[Ron Brand]

A&M is a very good team but how did the voters get convinced that OSU was a top ten team? They've got some good skill players, but I don't remember a team this sloppy, unprepared, disorganized and self-entitled since last year's Longhorns.

[Phil_in_CS]

A&M is a very good team but how did the voters get convinced that OSU was a top ten team? They've got some good skill players, but I don't remember a team this sloppy, unprepared, disorganized and self-entitled since last year's Longhorns.

Rankings this time of year are often crazy.

[BizidyDizidy]

Rankings this time of year are often crazy.

It's all just bullshit till week 6 or so

[Mr. Happy]

It's all just bullshit till week 6 or so

That's right. I don't think that LSU should be number 2 with the offense that it has demonstrated to date.

[BizidyDizidy]

That's right. I don't think that LSU should be number 2 with the offense that it has demonstrated to date.

I don't know about that - if they take care of WV, they will have earned it. Very tough start.

[Mr. Happy]

I don't know about that - if they take care of WV, they will have earned it. Very tough start.

I agree with that. But this is going to be a big test--biggest to date. Their offense is going to score some points, so our offense is going to be pushed.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

A&M is a very good team but how did the voters get convinced that OSU was a top ten team? They've got some good skill players, but I don't remember a team this sloppy, unprepared, disorganized and self-entitled since last year's Longhorns.

OSU ain't that bad. Just got off to a bad start.

[Ron Brand]

OSU ain't that bad. Just got off to a bad start.

Yeah, this second half team is a whole lot better than the one they ran out there to start with.

[austro]

And the Aggies are being Aggies. These last couple of interceptions were pathetic. Only OSU's amazing fumble-fingers-out-of-the-endzone is keeping this close.

[Phil_in_CS]

And the Aggies are being Aggies. These last couple of interceptions were pathetic. Only OSU's amazing fumble-fingers-out-of-the-endzone is keeping this close.

We've only played SMU and Idaho so far. That's why early season rankings are crazy. "being good" and "ought to be good" are often unrelated, and it takes a while (6 weeks like Biz said) to get who's who figured out.

[BizidyDizidy]

It's not clear that LSU has any offense to speak of, but it's not clear they need one either.

[MusicMan]

That's right. I don't think that LSU should be number 2 with the offense that it has demonstrated to date.

That D could stop many NFL teams.

[Navin R Johnson]

LSU leapfrogs OU and moves to #1 in the AP Poll.

[austro]

OU's win over FSU looks less impressive after Clemson's win.

[Andyzipp]

So...this is official now.

http://www.secdigitalnetwork.com/NEWS/tabid/473/Article/228257/texas-am-to-join-southeastern-conference.aspx

[JimR]

YAY!

[Andyzipp]

YAY!

Now all of you can take turns exploiting our porous defense on the way out the door.  If you need us, we'll be in a Waco courtroom.

[Waldo]

Does that mean Baylor finally waived their right to sue, or did the SEC admit A&M anyway?

[Andyzipp]

Does that mean Baylor finally waived their right to sue, or did the SEC admit A&M anyway?

The latter from what I've been able to gather.  I'm sure A&M will be brought into a Waco court somehow.

[Phil_in_CS]

Cool. Now we can blow big leads to different people next year!

[austro]

Cool. Now we can blow big leads to different people next year!

Optimist. It's unlikely that there will be any leads to blow.

[Andyzipp]

Optimist. It's unlikely that there will be any leads to blow.

Hey!  We can beat Kentucky and Vanderbilt right now.  Mississippi...you're next.

[austro]

Hey!  We can beat Kentucky and Vanderbilt right now.  Mississippi...you're next.

Kentucky, maybe.

[Phil_in_CS]

Optimist. It's unlikely that there will be any leads to blow.

Well, we will just have to find new and inventive ways to lose then!

[MusicMan]

Optimist. It's unlikely that there will be any leads to blow.

LSU and Bama are going to teach the Ags a whole new meaning of Wrecking Crew.

[Andyzipp]

LSU and Bama are going to teach the Ags a whole new meaning of Wrecking Crew.

Just like OU and Texas and Tech have for most of the past ten years.

[MusicMan]

Just like OU and Texas and Tech have for most of the past ten years.

None of those teams had a D that remotely resembles these LSU/Bama squads.  None.

[Andyzipp]

None of those teams had a D that remotely resembles these LSU/Bama squads.  None.

Lose by a little, lose by a lot.  I think the Cotton Bowl result against LSU (final numbers) will be the going rate for a while.

[Jacksonian]

Lose by a little, lose by a lot.  I think the Cotton Bowl result against LSU (final numbers) will be the going rate for a while.

Perhaps.  The SEC west is currently Alabama/LSU then Arkansas then Auburn/Miss St then Miss.  I'd put A&M in the Arkansas level right now.  If they were in the SEC this year they could compete for a January non-BCS bowl.  They'd be a consistent contender for the Cotton Bowl.

[Phil_in_CS]

None of those teams had a D that remotely resembles these LSU/Bama squads.  None.

That was pretty obvious in the Cotton Bowl last year. The Aggies were inconsistent last year, but even in the off games they didn't get blasted off the line of scrimmage like the Tigers did them.

[Bench]

Just when you thought things couldn't get any crazier, Conference USA may merge with the Mountain West to create the nation's first true SuperConference. 

The idea is to "create a massive 22-plus team mega conference in the hopes that it might receive a BCS bowl bid."

It's more quaint than crazy.   

[austro]

Just when you thought things couldn't get any crazier, Conference USA may merge with the Mountain West to create the nation's first true SuperConference. 

The idea is to "create a massive 22-plus team mega conference in the hopes that it might receive a BCS bowl bid."

It's more quaint than crazy.   

Ahhh, the old quantity-over-quality strategy.

[Jacksonian]

Apparently there's nothing better to do.

[Andyzipp]

Apparently there's nothing better to do.

I'd love to keep playing Texas in some way, but the Legislature getting involved to force the schools to schedule one another is beyond asinine.

[Alkie]

Note to A&M:   There are 4 quarters in a college football game.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Note to A&M:   There are 4 quarters in a college football game.
[/quote

Common mistake when using Aggie-math...

[Phil_in_CS]

Optimist. It's unlikely that there will be any leads to blow.

See? I told you we'd be able to blow big leads in the SEC.

[hostros7]

Is there any veracity to reports of TCU invited to Big XXII?  I saw Justice retweeting Bohls, so I wasn't sure if time-space continuum of journalism crashed my internet.

[JimR]

OB just reported TCU is in.

[MusicMan]

Gary Patterson: Most influential coaching hire since Bobby Bowden.

[JimR]

Gary Patterson: Most influential coaching hire since Bobby Bowden.

his reaction to losing to SMU was among the most classless ever.

[MusicMan]

his reaction to losing to SMU was among the most classless ever.

Oh, I agree.  But I also think that without him, TCU is still in CUSA.

[Outlawscotty]

Confused....

'On Sunday night, it was reported that the Big East Conference has added SMU as a potential target for expansion. TCU will join the league in 2012.'

http://espn.go.com/dallas/ncf/story/_/id/7059438/angry-gary-patterson-tcu-horned-frogs-not-helping-smu-mustangs-again

[MusicMan]

Source: On the Big 12- "Be on your toes ALL MORNING. Two separate announcements, probably within hours."

http://twitter.com/#!/DaveSittler/status/121965274219028480

[JimR]

http://twitter.com/#!/DaveSittler/status/121965274219028480

BYU in or Mizzou out?

[MusicMan]

BYU in or Mizzou out?

Reportedly Mizzou doesn't have the votes to get into the SEC, so I'm guessing BYU.

[hostros7]

Tulane, WTF???

is what I'll be typing if ESPN reports that Big XII is interested are true. 

[VirtualBob]

Tulane, WTF???

is what I'll be typing if ESPN reports that Big XII is interested are true. 

Brings back the call-in show I heard in the waning days of the SWC.  We don't need a Tu-lane, we need a FOUR-lane.

[Lurch]

Tulane, WTF???

is what I'll be typing if ESPN reports that Big XII is interested are true. 

AAU school

[MusicMan]

Tulane, WTF???

is what I'll be typing if ESPN reports that Big XII is interested are true. 

This is how LHN will end up showing high school games.

[Andyzipp]

Tulane, WTF???

is what I'll be typing if ESPN reports that Big XII is interested are true. 

Big 12 should be looking to replace the AAU school it lost in A&M (and I think Mizzou is one as well?).  Tulane is an AAU school.

[JackAstro]

Reportedly Mizzou doesn't have the votes to get into the SEC, so I'm guessing BYU.

Wildass conspiracy pulled from my ass: It's Louisville, for the TV market, but also to kill off the Big East and make a play at ND.

Reality: Probably BYU.

Curious about Mizzou, since they abstained from the TCU vote on advice from legal counsel.

[JackAstro]

This is how LHN will end up showing high school games.

How's that?

[Lurch]

How's that?

woosh

[Phil_in_CS]

Curious about Mizzou, since they abstained from the TCU vote on advice from legal counsel.

There was talk recently that the Big12 would increase the exit penalties. Has that happened? That could be a reason for Mizzou to abstain if they are planning on leaving soon.

[BizidyDizidy]

They were going to make them commit their media rights for 12 years, but it hasn't come into effect yet (because it takes unanimous agreement and Mizzou is waiting to see if the SEC will take them).

[Andyzipp]

They were going to make them commit their media rights for 12 years, but it hasn't come into effect yet (because it takes unanimous agreement and Mizzou is waiting to see if the SEC will take them).

Is it up to 12?  I thought it was 5-6 years.

[BizidyDizidy]

Is it up to 12?  I thought it was 5-6 years.

Maybe I lost my mind - something like that.

[Lurch]

There was talk recently that the Big12 would increase the exit penalties. Has that happened? That could be a reason for Mizzou to abstain if they are planning on leaving soon.

From the meeting when they canned Beebe:

The board, which consists of the presidents and chancellors of the Big 12's nine remaining schools, also agreed to new exit penalties. Members leaving the Big 12 will now forfeit all shared revenue. It's unclear whether the penalties will affect Texas A&M, which has withdrawn from the Big 12 effective at the end of this school year

link

[Lurch]

Is it up to 12?  I thought it was 5-6 years.

Still being debated apparently.

Missouri was more interested in a proposal that would grant rights for the 13 years remaining on the Fox television deal struck with the Big 12 in April, sources said.

Missouri and Oklahoma pushed for high school content restrictions on Tier 3 (that would impact the Longhorn Network) as part of the 13-year proposal, sources said.

But talks about granting rights for 13 years broke off after negotiations started Sunday night and went into Monday, sources said.

The talks broke off, in part, because Texas was hesitant to commit to granting rights for more than a decade while also having to make concessions on content impacting the Longhorn Network.

So Texas agreeing to restrict any and all high school content for the next six years, while also granting rights for that length ended up as the compromise, sources said.

ob

[JackAstro]

woosh

Oh. Shit. Dammit all to hell. Maybe I should just sit out the next few hands and re-caffeinate.

[JimR]

Wildass conspiracy pulled from my ass: It's Louisville, for the TV market, but also to kill off the Big East and make a play at ND.

Reality: Probably BYU.

Curious about Mizzou, since they abstained from the TCU vote on advice from legal counsel.

we don't need tricks to get ND. we just need the Big East to come apart. all imo, sorta, of course.

[Lurch]

we don't need tricks to get ND. we just need the Big East to come apart. all imo, sorta, of course.

I still don't follow why they'd come to us rather than Big 10

[JimR]

I still don't follow why they'd come to us rather than Big 10

DeLoss Dodds

[BizidyDizidy]

DeLoss Dodds

Everyone else seems to love being in a conference with him - plenty of good references.

[JimR]

Everyone else seems to love being in a conference with him - plenty of good references.

he and the ND AD are very close.

[BizidyDizidy]

he and the ND AD are very close.

I hope ND ends up having to join a conference, just to watch the meltdown among their supporters.

[JimR]

I hope ND ends up having to join a conference, just to watch the meltdown among their supporters.

they will not in FB until the NBC contract expires. they may need a conference for the other sports soon, though.

[BizidyDizidy]

they will not in FB until the NBC contract expires. they may need a conference for the other sports soon, though.

Are you secretly Chip Brown? He simultaneously tweeted:

As Big East destabilizes, sources tell Orangebloods.com Texas is pushing for Notre Dame to move its "other"sports to B12.

[hostros7]

Are you secretly Chip Brown? He simultaneously tweeted:

As Big East destabilizes, sources tell Orangebloods.com Texas is pushing for Notre Dame to move its "other"sports to B12.

\

Chip Brown reads Jim R

[JimR]

\

Chip Brown reads Jim R

he's about 2 weeks behind, though.

[MusicMan]

he's about 2 weeks behind, though.

Then he must have taken his smart pills today.

[geezerdonk]

Isn't ND in the Big East for basketball?

[JimR]

Isn't ND in the Big East for basketball?

yep.

[BizidyDizidy]

Isn't ND in the Big East for basketball?

Question is whether that's soon to be the "Former Big East"

[ybbodeus]

his reaction to losing to SMU was among the most classless ever.

Off the charts, especially since Jones's comments were actually a compliment to the frog program; he was describing how they reload with solid talent and still look imposing year after year.  

Patterson seems to go out of his way to get offended then twice as far as that to bite back.  I guess his insecurity is what drives his passion.  Can't argue with his program's relative stable consistency, but he's going to have a stroke at the rate he's going.

EDIT:  Keep hearing that the interest in adding BYU is dropping every day--not exponentially but consistently--and that Lousyville is about to withdraw from the Big East, too.

[94CougarGrad]

Hasn't TCU already agreed to go to the BE? I've gotta think that if they change their minds now and get into the Big 12-3, there are gonna be some penalties to pay.

[BizidyDizidy]

5MM exit fee

[Waldo]

5MM exit fee

If the Big East craters completely (rumors of Big 12 courting Louisville, Cincinnati, and/or WVU) then there will be no one left to collect the money.

[ybbodeus]

If Missouri leaves, and I don't think they will, it sounds like Lousyville is the agreed upon replacement and not BYU--anyone hear differently on that?  There are a few folks in WVa's corner, but Lousy gives the conference a team in the SEC's footprint, even if it's the basketball print more than the football one.  Is Louisville on the eastern edge of the central time zone or the western edge of the eastern?

Not that it's relevant, but I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a lot of Big 10 fans in Louisville, too--the two UofI's and Purdue combining to send a big chunk of their grads that way.

[Lurch]

If Missouri leaves, and I don't think they will,

Any particular reason?  Their actions seem to suggest its fairly certain/immanent

[BizidyDizidy]

Any particular reason?  Their actions seem to suggest its fairly certain/immanent

It seems like it depends on whether anyone will have them.

[Lurch]

It seems like it depends on whether anyone will have them.

Bizarre.  I thought Big 10 and SEC would both gladly take them.  Strong school to have no takers

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Bizarre.  I thought Big 10 and SEC would both gladly take them.  Strong school to have no takers

If History is any indication, the SEC is waiting for Missouri to follow the exit guidelines as laid out in the conference by-laws followed by a Missouri initiated request (see A&M, Texas - Departing Big 12). 

[BizidyDizidy]

Bizarre.  I thought Big 10 and SEC would both gladly take them.  Strong school to have no takers

They've as much as said they would love to go to the Big 10 but there is no reciprocal interest (they wanted to go last year as well, but B1G took Nebraska instead). SEC seems borderline whether they have the votes.

[BUWebguy]

They've as much as said they would love to go to the Big 10 but there is no reciprocal interest (they wanted to go last year as well, but B1G took Nebraska instead). SEC seems borderline whether they have the votes.

Birmingham paper reported yesterday that MU-to-SEC had a majority of SEC presidents' votes, but not the supermajority needed to be invited.

[ybbodeus]

Any particular reason?  Their actions seem to suggest its fairly certain/immanent

In part what Bizidy said (and WebGuy confirmed), Lurch, but also because Deaton seems to like where they are and has an excellent relationship with a number of his fellow presidents.  He's been standing up to a small but vocal faction of his BOR, one that apparently has demonstrated its influence over the last few days, too, in getting him to agree to at least pursue the breaching option ("demanding" or "ordering" would probably be better choices than "getting").  

Of course, no sooner do I post what I did earlier about thinking they'll stay put than the Twit-erverse blows up that MO is announcing that they're out by day's end.   Who friggin' knows?  

Goodbye, MO and hello, LOU?  Hardly a replacement, unless you're looking to continue easing that path to the BCS title game for your top guns.

As far as MO to the Big 10, if they were in fact selected by the Big 10, they'd be ranked academically better than just one current member of that conference--the one the Big 10 took last year.  I'm only going by USN&WR, knowing full well there are lots of ways to rate colleges.  Regardless, MO isn't the Princeton of the Plains it makes itself out to be.

[BizidyDizidy]

In part what Bizidy said (and WebGuy confirmed), Lurch, but also because Deaton seems to like where they are and has an excellent relationship with a number of his fellow presidents.  He's been standing up to a small but vocal faction of his BOR, one that apparently has demonstrated its influence over the last few days, too, in getting him to agree to at least pursue the breaching option ("demanding" or "ordering" would probably be better choices than "getting").  

Of course, no sooner do I post what I did earlier about thinking they'll stay put than the Twit-erverse blows up that MO is announcing that they're out by day's end.   Who friggin' knows?  

Goodbye, MO and hello, LOU?  Hardly a replacement, unless you're looking to continue easing that path to the BCS title game for your top guns.

As far as MO to the Big 10, if they were in fact selected by the Big 10, they'd be ranked academically better than just one current member of that conference--the one the Big 10 took last year.  I'm only going by USN&WR, knowing full well there are lots of ways to rate colleges.  Regardless, MO isn't the Princeton of the Plains it makes itself out to be.

Isn't the answer here to sue the fuckers?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

In part what Bizidy said (and WebGuy confirmed), Lurch, but also because Deaton seems to like where they are and has an excellent relationship with a number of his fellow presidents.  He's been standing up to a small but vocal faction of his BOR, one that apparently has demonstrated its influence over the last few days, too, in getting him to agree to at least pursue the breaching option ("demanding" or "ordering" would probably be better choices than "getting").  

Of course, no sooner do I post what I did earlier about thinking they'll stay put than the Twit-erverse blows up that MO is announcing that they're out by day's end.   Who friggin' knows?  

Goodbye, MO and hello, LOU?  Hardly a replacement, unless you're looking to continue easing that path to the BCS title game for your top guns.

As far as MO to the Big 10, if they were in fact selected by the Big 10, they'd be ranked academically better than just one current member of that conference--the one the Big 10 took last year.  I'm only going by USN&WR, knowing full well there are lots of ways to rate colleges.  Regardless, MO isn't the Princeton of the Plains it makes itself out to be.

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/10/5/2470531/conference-realignment-missouri-sec-expansion

If I recall correctly, SBNation was all over A&M's departure while it was only rumor....

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Isn't the answer here to sue the fuckers?

Only if you are Ken Starr....

[BizidyDizidy]

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/10/5/2470531/conference-realignment-missouri-sec-expansion

If I recall correctly, SBNation was all over A&M's departure while it was only rumor....

Sbnation is just an affiliation of blogs isn't it?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Sbnation is just an affiliation of blogs isn't it?

Yes... and your point is?

[BizidyDizidy]

Yes... and your point is?

Just that it doesn't make sense to credit it in that way (like you would Orangebloods or something). Now if Bill Connelly was the first on A&M's departure, then that makes sense.

[Andyzipp]

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2011/10/5/2470531/conference-realignment-missouri-sec-expansion

If I recall correctly, SBNation was all over A&M's departure while it was only rumor....

So was I...

Just sayin'.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Just that it doesn't make sense to credit it in that way (like you would Orangebloods or something). Now if Bill Connelly was the first on A&M's departure, then that makes sense.

I see your point.  All I can offer is that I found information which proved to be accurate in the past.  The post, assuming you read it, was a fairly well rounded piece addressing each of the primary areas of question:  Which conference and why?  Is MU a fit with SEC?  What is the impact? etc...  

Unless you have some inside contact, like Jim, all we can do is wait for a decision to be made.  Until then, it's all speculation.  Some sources have a better track record.  I have found better opinion pieces on SBNation than on ESPN, SportingNews, etc...

[S.P. Rodriguez]

So was I...

Just sayin'.

Yes, but some of us are just regular schlubs.  My impatience with your lack of steady updates forced me into the arms of SBNation.

[ybbodeus]

Isn't the answer here to sue the fuckers?

Only if you are Ken Starr....

You're both right; new Shimmy is a floor wax AND a dessert topping!

Actually, you're both wrong; the correct move and/or interpretaion is not to sue but to refuse to waive your right to sue.  Big difference.

"You are, both of you, amateurs. You need professionals to run your affairs (i.e., smack), or you're headed for disaster!   A toast.....to the professionals!"

[EasTexAstro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rLj3vw5fwI&feature=related

[Jacksonian]

Missouri says, "Show me the money!"

[MusicMan]

@totalfratmove:

Saw an A&M fan wearing an SEC hat. Told him, “You can’t wear letters when you’re pledging.” TFM

[MusicMan]

I am at my desk, laughing my ass off, at a school's Athletic Director continually referring to "tu" iin official communications about Big 12 3rd tier issues

Ags, if you wonder why everyone thinks you have little brother syndrome, this is it in a nutshell.

[JimR]

I am at my desk, laughing my ass off, at a school's Athletic Director continually referring to "tu" iin official communications about Big 12 3rd tier issues

Ags, if you wonder why everyone thinks you have little brother syndrome, this is it in a nutshell.

that guy is hilarious. he was born to be at that school.

[BizidyDizidy]

Where Andrew (Michael) goes following his days at Ozen isn't certain. He'd love to follow his brother to A&M. But he said Christine (Michael) has other visions for his future.

"I want to go to A&M," Andrew said. "It would be cool but he wants me to be in a better place than him. Like he wants me to be at LSU or something like that."

http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=1974945&forum_id=5

[Andyzipp]

You don't win, this is what you get.