Author Topic: Posnanski on upcoming HOF vote (Read 18474 times)

austro · « **on:** July 24, 2011, 03:47:46 pm »

Posnanski discusses Bagwell and Biggio and many others.

Houston · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2011, 06:59:30 am »

If this writer doesn't agree with the Bagwell steroid rumors, why does he perpetuate them? On the other hand, he does give Bagwell and Biggio their due, though I found it curious that he didn't mention runs scored, which I admit are a "dependent" stat, but a vital one, nevertheless. Bags and Bidge were at their best once they reached base.

cougar · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2011, 08:59:43 am »

I think the foundations of the universe just shook a bit. ESPN was talking about the 2013 vote and Craig Biggio was the ONLY one talked about as going in on the first ballot. Granted it was Dave Winfield saying this and not one of their usual talking heads, plus he prefaced it by automatically disqualifying anyone even hinted at for 'roids (Bonds, Clemens, Sosa), but he didn't even bring up Schilling or Piazza. Bagwell didn't even get a mention in the carryovers unfortunately. He went with Morris, Smith, and Larkin there.

Houston · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2011, 09:40:58 am »

Quote from: cougar on July 25, 2011, 08:59:43 am

I think the foundations of the universe just shook a bit. ESPN was talking about the 2013 vote and Craig Biggio was the ONLY one talked about as going in on the first ballot. Granted it was Dave Winfield saying this and not one of their usual talking heads, plus he prefaced it by automatically disqualifying anyone even hinted at for 'roids (Bonds, Clemens, Sosa), but he didn't even bring up Schilling or Piazza. Bagwell didn't even get a mention in the carryovers unfortunately. He went with Morris, Smith, and Larkin there.

They were discussing the Class of 2013 on yesterday's Baseball Tonight and Buster Olney said he thought Biggio, Schilling and Piazza would be the only three getting voted in, though he wasn't sure if it would be on their first ballots. He said Clemens, Bonds and Sosa had "no chance" of getting in.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2011, 09:55:54 am »

Quote from: Houston on July 25, 2011, 09:40:58 am

They were discussing the Class of 2013 on yesterday's Baseball Tonight and Buster Olney said he thought Biggio, Schilling and Piazza would be the only three getting voted in, though he wasn't sure if it would be on their first ballots. He said Clemens, Bonds and Sosa had "no chance" of getting in.

How the hell is Schilling even in a HOF discussion, let alone one about first ballots?

Rebel Jew · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:01:32 am »

Quote from: cougar on July 25, 2011, 08:59:43 am

I think the foundations of the universe just shook a bit. ESPN was talking about the 2013 vote and Craig Biggio was the ONLY one talked about as going in on the first ballot. Granted it was Dave Winfield saying this and not one of their usual talking heads, plus he prefaced it by automatically disqualifying anyone even hinted at for 'roids (Bonds, Clemens, Sosa), but he didn't even bring up Schilling or Piazza. Bagwell didn't even get a mention in the carryovers unfortunately. He went with Morris, Smith, and Larkin there.

more and more it seems like baseball people consider Biggio to be the more automatic hall of fame member compared to Bagwell, implying that he was a better overall player. As a fan of the team, though, if, in their respective primes, someone held a gun to my head and said I could only keep one player of the two I would choose Bagwell. Again, this is a "held a gun to my head" statement, but I feel like it's the answer the majority of Astro fans would give as well. But I suppose the hall has more affinity for second baseman as a general rule, and Biggio's esoteric stats like his HBP record fit in better with baseball mythology.

Houston · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:01:48 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 25, 2011, 09:55:54 am

How the hell is Schilling even in a HOF discussion, let alone one about first ballots?

Schilling bled for you, that's why!

Ron Brand · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:02:41 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 25, 2011, 09:55:54 am

How the hell is Schilling even in a HOF discussion, let alone one about first ballots?

ESPN. Northeastern bias. Boston. Bloody sock. TV. Touches all their hot buttons.

MusicMan · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:02:50 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 25, 2011, 09:55:54 am

How the hell is Schilling even in a HOF discussion, let alone one about first ballots?

Red Sox Nation.

Buster Olney actually bothered to respond on Twitter to some fan asking if Wakefield is a HOF'er once he gets his next win (200).

BizidyDizidy · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:03:59 am »

Quote from: Joey Trum on July 25, 2011, 10:01:32 am

more and more it seems like baseball people consider Biggio to be the more automatic hall of fame member compared to Bagwell, implying that he was a better overall player. As a fan of the team, though, if, in their respective primes, someone held a gun to my head and said I could only keep one player of the two I would choose Bagwell. Again, this is a "held a gun to my head" statement, but I feel like it's the answer the majority of Astro fans would give as well. But I suppose the hall has more affinity for second baseman as a general rule, and Biggio's esoteric stats like his HBP record fit in better with baseball mythology.

Biggio played 700 more games, which makes a difference for HoF as well.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:05:41 am »

Quote from: Ron Brand on July 25, 2011, 10:02:41 am

ESPN. Northeastern bias. Boston. Bloody sock. TV. Touches all their hot buttons.

Ugh. I've vigorously defended the BBWAA for a long time, but I can see now that I'm gonna eat my words the day Andy Pettitte sails in on the first ballot.

MusicMan · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:07:09 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 25, 2011, 10:05:41 am

Ugh. I've vigorously defended the BBWAA for a long time, but I can see now that I'm gonna eat my words the day Andy Pettitte sails in on the first ballot.

You KNOW it's going to happen.

/still waiting for Trammell to get in
//yes, there's an actual SI article that Derek Jeter should be the first unanimous choice

Guinness · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:07:43 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on July 25, 2011, 09:55:54 am

How the hell is Schilling even in a HOF discussion, let alone one about first ballots?

He pitched for the Sawks. Why do you hate America?

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:15:50 am »

Quote from: MusicMan on July 25, 2011, 10:07:09 am

You KNOW it's going to happen.

Oh I know. It's gonna turn my stomach, but the guy was a Yankee...how can he *not* be a HOFer?

Quote

//yes, there's an actual SI article that Derek Jeter should be the first unanimous choice

I don't think it'll be Jeter, but someday there will be, and it may just be Greg Maddux. And I've seen many articles like that. Basically everyone says if he's not unanimous, it'll be because of the well known anti-Yankee bias in the media and HOF voting.

MusicMan · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:27:22 am »

I'd be on board with Maddux getting a unanimous vote.

Rebel Jew · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2011, 10:27:39 am »

Quote from: BizidyDizidy on July 25, 2011, 10:03:59 am

Biggio played 700 more games, which makes a difference for HoF as well.

the whole end of Biggio's career was very well-managed in media terms. to baseball people, Biggio just seems and looks like a hall of famer, the kind of guy who'd look really neat on a plaque, the kind of player you could tell stories about 50 years from now ("old Craig Biggio'd do anything to get on base..."). Bagwell probably strikes many writers as being "merely" a really good player. As Posnanski implied, it probably doesn't have much to do with steroid rumors, except maybe as some general devaluing of guys who put up strong offensive numbers in the steroid era.

JaneDoe · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2011, 11:35:53 am »

Quote from: Houston on July 25, 2011, 10:01:48 am

Schilling ~~bled~~ ketchuped for you, that's why!

austro · « **Reply #17 on:** July 25, 2011, 11:48:32 am »

Right on schedule, we're now blessed with this:

Is Dustin Pedroia on road to Hall?

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #18 on:** July 25, 2011, 12:26:09 pm »

Quote from: austro on July 25, 2011, 11:48:32 am

Right on schedule, we're now blessed with this:

Is Dustin Pedroia on road to Hall?

eh...it's a local fluff piece. Nothing wrong with that. Pedroia is a terrific player. He may end up being a HOFer. Time will tell.

Randy Watson · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:44:46 am »

Tim Raines is a guy who should have been a sure fire first ballot HOFer. .385 lifetime OBP over 23 seasons. Fifth all-time in stolen bases with 808. One of the things that made him extra special was his efficiency at stealing -- his success rate of of 84.6 percent is first among players with at least 500 stolen bases.

Lou Brock is in the HOF for stealing bases. He was successful 75% of the time. Tim Raines is one of the very best true leadoff men of all time and should be in.

Jeff Bagwell is a top-5 first basemen of all-time as a hitter, one of the best baserunners of his era, and was a premier fielder before his shoulder betrayed him.

Imagine the mortal lock he would have been had the Red Sox held on to him.

Ron Brand · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2011, 09:56:50 am »

Brock could hit a little bit too.

JimR · « **Reply #21 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:02:06 am »

Quote from: Ron Brand on July 26, 2011, 09:56:50 am

Brock could hit a little bit too.

check his WS stats.

Ron Brand · « **Reply #22 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:10:59 am »

Quote from: JimR on July 26, 2011, 10:02:06 am

check his WS stats.

Not too shabby.

hostros7 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:18:49 am »

Quote from: Ron Brand on July 26, 2011, 10:10:59 am

Not too shabby.

How much speed was Brock eating to steal 118 bases and get caught stealing 33 times?

He had 194 hits and 61 walks. Simplistically, let's assume that he never attempted two steals the same time he reached base. He attempted a steal 59% of the time he reached base.

Last year, Bourn had 52 steals and 12 CS. Using the same simplistic methodology, he only attempted a steal 32% of the time he reached base.

I don't know why I typed all this, but I just got curious and then started thinking aloud.

Ron Brand · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:22:57 am »

And Brock was fast, but not crazy fast. He knew how to read pitchers and got so deep into their heads that he changed the way they pitched. Over 3000 hits and a good chunk of it in the Dead Zone of the 60s, where pitching ruled.

JaneDoe · « **Reply #25 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:37:53 am »

Quote from: Randy Watson on July 26, 2011, 09:44:46 am

Jeff Bagwell is a top-5 first basemen of all-time as a hitter, one of the best baserunners of his era, and was a premier fielder before his shoulder betrayed him.

Imagine the mortal lock he would have been had the Red Sox held on to him.

This. This right here.

the KEG · « **Reply #26 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:45:10 am »

Quote from: JaneDoe on July 26, 2011, 10:37:53 am

This. This right here.

See Rice, Jim. Though, it did take him a while to get in.

subnuclear · « **Reply #27 on:** July 26, 2011, 10:51:44 am »

I think if he had played third base it would have helped him, though I think he will get in the next couple of years.

Reuben · « **Reply #28 on:** July 26, 2011, 11:25:44 am »

Quote from: hostros7 on July 26, 2011, 10:18:49 am

I don't know why I typed all this, but I just got curious and then started thinking aloud.

This statement would be appropriate for probably 98% of my posts at least.

Author Topic: Posnanski on upcoming HOF vote (Read 18474 times)

Guinness