Author Topic: Time for a bullpen adjustment?  (Read 8704 times)

das

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Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« on: May 04, 2011, 04:51:35 pm »
That was horrible to watch. Lyon looked scared even before he threw his first pitch. Scared nibblers are excrebable entertainment.
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austro

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 04:59:50 pm »
Lyon looked scared even before he threw his first pitch.

I know I was.
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MRaup

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 05:07:01 pm »
That was horrible to watch. Lyon looked scared even before he threw his first pitch. Scared nibblers are excrebable entertainment.

The only thing I can compare it to is the looks on the Astro players faces when they hear Das is in attendance.
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EasTexAstro

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 08:47:29 am »
Tweet:

Brandon Lyon is flying to Houston today to be looked at by Dr. Lintner for shoulder weakness.

It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

austro

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 08:51:35 am »
Tweet:

Brandon Lyon is flying to Houston today to be looked at by Dr. Lintner for shoulder weakness.

Too bad he missed yesterday's flight.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
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JimR

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 09:16:29 am »
Tweet:

Brandon Lyon is flying to Houston today to be looked at by Dr. Lintner for shoulder weakness.

an injury makes sense to me. he was 20 out of 22 last year, and there has to be some reason he has been this bad.
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Navin R Johnson

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 09:25:44 am »
an injury makes sense to me. he was 20 out of 22 last year, and there has to be some reason he has been this bad.

That is what I was thinking.  Zach Levine just reported this too.

@zacharylevine: Brandon Lyon's average FB has dropped from 91.6 mph to 90.4 this year according to @fangraphs and peaked at 90 Wed
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 09:25:59 am »
an injury makes sense to me. he was 20 out of 22 last year, and there has to be some reason he has been this bad.

You're right, Coach. Something is keeping him from finishing his pitches. Because he has subpar velocity, movement is essential and I haven't seen any.
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JimR

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2011, 09:36:59 am »
That is what I was thinking.  Zach Levine just reported this too.

@zacharylevine: Brandon Lyon's average FB has dropped from 91.6 mph to 90.4 this year according to @fangraphs and peaked at 90 Wed

the couple of time i have seen him, everything was up and his slider had no bite.
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astrosfan76

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 09:57:01 am »
Melancon in as closer

EasTexAstro

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2011, 09:57:33 am »
List of tweets:

brianmctaggart:
Ed Wade said Brandon Lyon had previously been diagnosed with biceps tendinitis. #Astros

alysonfooter:
Dear conspiracy theorists: When a player who was good not long ago isn't anymore there is usually something else involved, like an injury.

alysonfooter:
I seriously doubt BLyon woke up one day and forgot how to pitch. Clearly, something is not right physically. Just my $.02 as they say.

alysonfooter:
"Lyon will have MRI this afternoon and we'll know more after and go from there." Mills.

alysonfooter:
"We're going to give the ninth inning to Melancon and go from there." Mills.
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drew corleone

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 10:21:29 am »
If he was previously diagnosed with an injury, why were they still running him out there?

I get that there's not another bona fide closer on the roster, but hasn't really looked sharp at any point this season.

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 10:39:42 am »
I get that there's not another bona fide closer on the roster, but hasn't really looked sharp at any point this season.

(plane flies off to Houston with Lyon aboard)

Millsie: "That boy was our last hope."

Wade (closing his eyes and looking upward): "No... there is another"

FIN
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 10:41:58 am »
closing his eyes and looking upward

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 10:42:17 am »
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2011, 10:55:36 am »
If he was previously diagnosed with an injury, why were they still running him out there?

I get that there's not another bona fide closer on the roster, but hasn't really looked sharp at any point this season.

I don't want to falsely attribute this insight, so I will simply say someone on this site pointed this out some time ago.  All professional athletes operate at a level less than 100% health.  Most likely, Lyon was pitching through the pain like most other pitchers. 
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pots

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2011, 10:59:24 am »
(plane flies off to Houston with Lyon aboard)

Millsie: "That boy was our last hope."

Wade (closing his eyes and looking upward): "No... there is another"

FIN

Nice

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2011, 11:01:19 am »
I don't want to falsely attribute this insight, so I will simply say someone on this site pointed this out some time ago.  All professional athletes operate at a level less than 100% health.  Most likely, Lyon was pitching through the pain like most other pitchers. 


i agree, and there is a certain amount of denial at play usually. if he is hurt, maybe it is time for all of us to let up on him a bit.
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drew corleone

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2011, 11:11:23 am »
I'm not trying to fault Lyon for trying to pitch through pain. Shouldn't someone, though, at some level (Rex Jones up through Ed Wade) see that his performance is suffering, make the correlation that it's due to an injury, and make the executive decision to sit him down until said injury heals/improves?

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2011, 11:15:57 am »
I'm not trying to fault Lyon for trying to pitch through pain. Shouldn't someone, though, at some level (Rex Jones up through Ed Wade) see that his performance is suffering, make the correlation that it's due to an injury, and make the executive decision to sit him down until said injury heals/improves?

You're also assuming that there is black/white dichotomy with injuries, as though Lyon were healthy, and then all of the sudden, not healthy.  It's a continuum that progressively got worse until, voila, the executive decision you speak of that actually happened in real life just as you are describing.  
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EasTexAstro

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2011, 11:47:02 am »
Footer Tweets:

Regarding your questions about why Lyon's shoulder weakness issue wasn't addressed earlier:he was getting daily treatments for tendinitis...

...but he felt that he was strong enough to pitch through it, and there was nothing showing up to trainers that suggested he was badly hurt.

It was a situation where they were monitoring the shoulder, but Lyon felt pretty good through the process. Obviously, as time went on...

...the shoulder grew weaker. So now he's being examined and we'll know more after the MRI.

It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of 'em was one kinda sombitch or another.

drew corleone

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2011, 11:54:31 am »
Not really assuming black/white anything, and don't think there's ever been a "voila" moment, as performance has been less than what his history suggests he's capable of since OD.

Footer's latest tweet does a pretty good job of explaining, so not point in debating this further.

Mike S.

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2011, 02:06:47 pm »
(plane flies off to Houston with Lyon aboard)

Millsie: "That boy was our last hope."

Wade (closing his eyes and looking upward): "No... there is another"

FIN

Does this mean Millsie is glowing and Ed Wade is actually a two foot puppet operated by Frank Oz? Or would a combination of Pam Gardner and Drayton McLane be more a pro pos?
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OregonStrosFan

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2011, 03:32:36 pm »
Footer (via Twitter):

"Brandon Lyon has biceps tendinitis and a partial tear of his rotator cuff." It will be treated non-surgically but he will go on the 15 day DL. Valdez recalled.
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Matt

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2011, 04:54:27 pm »
Footer (via Twitter):

"Brandon Lyon has biceps tendinitis and a partial tear of his rotator cuff." It will be treated non-surgically but he will go on the 15 day DL. Valdez recalled.

That sounds like something that will bloom into a full on surgery down the line. They almost always do.

austro

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2011, 05:01:44 pm »
That sounds like something that will bloom into a full on surgery down the line. They almost always do.

0.0 IP for the remaining (5/18 + 6/18)*$15M == $9.17M of the contract.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2011, 05:39:00 pm »
0.0 IP for the remaining (5/18 + 6/18)*$15M == $9.17M of the contract.
Maybe the new owner will only have to give Drayton $691.83M, then.
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Navin R Johnson

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2011, 03:56:55 pm »
The Astros' bullpen is currently 5 of 15 in converting saves.  33%  That is unbelievable.  In the last 10 years 2 teams have had a sub 50% rate, the '08 Nationals at 49% and the '02 Cubs at 48%
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2011, 12:15:53 pm »
The Astros' bullpen is currently 5 of 15 in converting saves.  33%  That is unbelievable.  In the last 10 years 2 teams have had a sub 50% rate, the '08 Nationals at 49% and the '02 Cubs at 48%

And to add to the irony is how much Ed Wade is known for a lack of patience for bullpen arms that do not perform.

Navin R Johnson

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2011, 12:23:54 pm »
Considering what the gave away Lindstrom for, just to save 2 million dollars, I am guessing Wade's hands are currently tied in terms of adding to the bullpen.
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Ron Brand

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2011, 12:26:06 pm »
The Astros' bullpen is currently 5 of 15 in converting saves.  33%  That is unbelievable.  In the last 10 years 2 teams have had a sub 50% rate, the '08 Nationals at 49% and the '02 Cubs at 48%

That's a tiny sample size and is unreasonably skewed by a closer who was hurt but didn't let on how hurt he was until it couldn't be denied. It's not like the Astros have only converted 25 out of 75. If they'd replaced Lyon with Melancon earlier, or if Lopez hadn't gotten hurt, it might be 10 of 15 which would be bad but still a very small sample size and not an "unbelievable" 33%. Measuring something that isn't likely to be a trend against those two teams is not a good comp, IMO.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 12:28:14 pm by Ron Brand »
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2011, 12:27:11 pm »
Considering what the gave away Lindstrom for, just to save 2 million dollars, I am guessing Wade's hands are currently tied in terms of adding to the bullpen.

I don't think they had a lot of confidence that Lindstrom was going to be able to be reliable again.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2011, 12:31:00 pm »
I don't think they had a lot of confidence that Lindstrom was going to be able to be reliable again.
I agree with this. Lindstrom looked to me to have some head problems too with the closer role, which is a tough role.
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moriartp

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2011, 12:35:42 pm »
I don't think they had a lot of confidence that Lindstrom was going to be able to be reliable again.

Bingo. Not that Lyon inspired much confidence himself, but Lindstrom was likely the easier to move of the two.

Still, I can hardly wrap my head around how bad the bullpen's been this season. I haven't been around for nearly as long as some here, but I can't remember a time when I had less faith in a pen to hold a lead.

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2011, 12:39:13 pm »
That's a tiny sample size and is unreasonably skewed by a closer who was hurt but didn't let on how hurt he was until it couldn't be denied. It's not like the Astros have only converted 25 out of 75. If they'd replaced Lyon with Melancon earlier, or if Lopez hadn't gotten hurt, it might be 10 of 15 which would be bad but still a very small sample size and not an "unbelievable" 33%. Measuring something that isn't likely to be a trend against those two teams is not a good comp, IMO.

I am not sure you can look at it with the "there are reasons why...".  It is what it is.  This bullpen is inconsistent and that is the bottomline regardless.  Not one of these guys inspires a "when he's in, you have a very good chance the job will get done" feeling for me.  Not one.  Melancon is very talented, but you have to give him the opportunity to fail and learn in order to be more consistent.  That is why a good mixture of veteran and young talent is perhaps the best recipe for a solid bullpen.

In days past, the un-sung heroes of the bullpen who provided leadership and good performances were guys like Tom Gordon or Dan Miceli that helped young arms like Dan Wheeler, Chad Qualls and even Brad Lidge be much better.  That is one area and the other is a the role definition for a bullpen.  It is critical and when one particular role is not functioning well, then it has a ripple effect.  It is not that overtly evident, but it's there and the bullpen guys try to do much more than the role calls for when they are expected to cover for another role is *not* doing well.

A seventh inning guy tries to do much more because he knows the eighth inning guys is shaky and so forth.  In short, Houston has none of that and that is why at this point of the season, if I were doing a Memorial Day evaluation like most GMs do, I'd say the biggest problem area for my team right now is the bullpen because of the two areas I just talked about.  It is just not there in my team.

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2011, 12:50:16 pm »
I'm not talking about the whole bullpen, only about what was said regarding save conversion. I agree that the bullpen has been a mess. Freaking out over not converting ten of fifteen when the closer has gone out there with a bad wing all month isn't the same thing as converting a third over a whole season, that's all.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2011, 01:59:56 pm »
I agree with this. Lindstrom looked to me to have some head problems too with the closer role, which is a tough role.

back problems
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2011, 02:07:02 pm »
back problems

I was aware of the back issues too, but I just didn't get a gunslinger vibe from Lindstrom, which you really need to be a closer.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2011, 03:32:54 pm »
I was aware of the back issues too, but I just didn't get a gunslinger vibe from Lindstrom, which you really need to be a closer.

"Hello. Mr. Crane? Yeah, I've got the best idea ever for you. Hire BRETT FAVRE to close! Why? He's got that gunslinger vibe! What? Do ultra-rich people really use language like that? What did you say about my mother? Hello?..."
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2011, 03:49:09 pm »
I was aware of the back issues too, but I just didn't get a gunslinger vibe from Lindstrom, which you really need to be a closer.

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Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2011, 01:10:04 pm »
Vin Mazzaro may be available. Wade needs to get busy.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2011, 03:45:02 pm »
Via Levine: Abad down, Fernando Rodriguez up.  (Wa-Rod, An-Rod and Fe-Rod pitching for the 'Stros now...).
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2011, 03:53:19 pm »
(Wa-Rod, An-Rod and Fe-Rod pitching for the 'Stros now...).

And Towles will catch them all, while Q handles Myers and Bud.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2011, 03:53:47 pm »
The Astros' bullpen is currently 5 of 15 in converting saves.  33%  That is unbelievable.  In the last 10 years 2 teams have had a sub 50% rate, the '08 Nationals at 49% and the '02 Cubs at 48%

After today, via BusterTweet:  It's official: Elias says '11 Astros have worst [save] start since '69, in first 16 chances. HOU 5/16. '87 CLE, '75 KC,'86 Minn all went 6/16.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2011, 03:54:15 pm »
The Astros' bullpen is currently 5 of 15 in converting saves.  33%  That is unbelievable.  In the last 10 years 2 teams have had a sub 50% rate, the '08 Nationals at 49% and the '02 Cubs at 48%

Olney tweet:
Quote
t's official: Elias says '11 Astros have worst SV start since '69, in first 16 chances. HOU 5/16. '87 CLE, '75 KC,'86 Minn all went 6/16.

Records:
1987 Indians: 61-101
1975 Royals: 91-71
1986 Twins: 71-91

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2011, 03:55:15 pm »
1975 Royals: 91-71

So you're telling me that I could still win The Race for the Lid?
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2011, 03:56:22 pm »
So you're telling me that I could still win The Race for the Lid?

This team is All-Time bad.
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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2011, 03:59:40 pm »
Olney tweet:
Records:
1987 Indians: 61-101
1975 Royals: 91-71
1986 Twins: 71-91

Assist from Bench



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s

MRaup

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2011, 05:23:54 pm »
This team is All-Time Abad.

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Lurch

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Re: Time for a bullpen adjustment?
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2011, 05:34:29 pm »
You have to be in em to blow em.



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