Pence

[Reuben]

I have often thought, "sure, Pence is over-rated, -hyped, -caffeinated, -marketed, whatever. And sure, he's no #3 hitter. More like a 6 or a 5 if you're really hard-up for hitters. And sure, he's not a good outfielder. He's average at best, despite his speed and hustle. But, gee, he's still a valuable, solid, slightly-above-average Major League ballplayer, and he certainly tries hard... it's not HIS fault that the team's offense is so weak he has to bat third... maybe some people are a little hard on him sometimes. Sure, if they could get some team to pony up a bunch of prospects, they should listen, but, he's a perfectly decent player to hold on to for now if they don't get blown away."

Nope. Not any more. I am so damn sick of watching him flail at any pitch thrown within a 10-foot radius of the strikezone, running the bases like... ah, shit, I can't even bring myself to write all this shit down. You all know what he does. I am now actively hoping he gets traded this year. He is a stupid, stupid player. He is not the type of player I want to watch play for the Astros. I have no idea how the hell he's gotten 20 RBI or whatever he has, but I hope that it helps convince some foolish GM or owner somewhere that his team needs Hunter Pence. Soon. And that Ed has the balls to do it.

[chuck]

The only balls that Ed Wade has are the ones that Pam Gardner loans him.

[VirtualBob]

I have often thought, "sure, Pence is over-rated, -hyped, -caffeinated, -marketed, whatever. And sure, he's no #3 hitter. More like a 6 or a 5 if you're really hard-up for hitters. And sure, he's not a good outfielder. He's average at best, despite his speed and hustle. But, gee, he's still a valuable, solid, slightly-above-average Major League ballplayer, and he certainly tries hard... it's not HIS fault that the team's offense is so weak he has to bat third... maybe some people are a little hard on him sometimes. Sure, if they could get some team to pony up a bunch of prospects, they should listen, but, he's a perfectly decent player to hold on to for now if they don't get blown away."

Nope. Not any more. I am so damn sick of watching him flail at any pitch thrown within a 10-foot radius of the strikezone, running the bases like... ah, shit, I can't even bring myself to write all this shit down. You all know what he does. I am now actively hoping he gets traded this year. He is a stupid, stupid player. He is not the type of player I want to watch play for the Astros. I have no idea how the hell he's gotten 20 RBI or whatever he has, but I hope that it helps convince some foolish GM or owner somewhere that his team needs Hunter Pence. Soon. And that Ed has the balls to do it.

I am not sure what has happened to the POTWA, and I am well aware that the award is heavily weighted toward sarcasm and general smart-assed-ness.

Nevertheless ... S. F. N. on content alone.

[Ron Brand]

He's not going to get traded until the club gets sold, if then. He's our village idiot.

[Reuben]

He's not going to get traded until the club gets sold, if then. He's our village idiot.

So you're saying there's a chance?

[JimR]

if i were his manager last night, he would be dead today. terrible, terrible ballplayer.

[Gizzmonic]

Hunter accidentally dropped his controller and hit the 'steal all' button last night.

[jbm]

I often wonder if he knows he is a mental spaz and just can't control it, or is just blissfully ignorant.

[Ron Brand]

Mills defended him pretty vigorously last night in the post-game. Praised his 'aggressiveness' and said that was what you wanted in a player.

Of course, there was no followup about the difference between 'aggressive' and 'stupid' so he safely defended his player without publicly addressing the real problem. If he won't listen to Jeff Bagwell, it's unreasonable to expect that whatever Ludovico Technique Mills applies will sink in either.

[MRaup]

Hunter accidentally dropped his controller and hit the 'steal all' button last night.

I suspect Hunter's controller just has one button on it... And it just says "GOOOOO!!!!1!!"

[Ron Brand]

I often wonder if he knows he is a mental spaz and just can't control it, or is just blissfully ignorant.

He's the Cocker Spaniel of players.

[MusicMan]

If he won't listen to Jeff Bagwell, it's unreasonable to expect that whatever Ludovico Technique Mills applies will sink in either.

When asked to describe the play last night in GZ, I seriously considered just saying "Picture Bagwell.  Now picture the opposite."

That's pretty much Pence as a player, and this franchise as a whole, right now.

[subnuclear]

I often wonder if he knows he is a mental spaz and just can't control it, or is just blissfully ignorant.

Actually, he reminds me of several of my family members. They get excited and they can't calm down. Even small things send them into a brain panic. They say anti-anxiety medication helps, but I don't know if it would help Pence.

[JimR]

Mills defended him pretty vigorously last night in the post-game. Praised his 'aggressiveness' and said that was what you wanted in a player.

Of course, there was no followup about the difference between 'aggressive' and 'stupid' so he safely defended his player without publicly addressing the real problem. If he won't listen to Jeff Bagwell, it's unreasonable to expect that whatever Ludovico Technique Mills applies will sink in either.

that is total and complete bullshit, Millsie. unbelievable that he said that if not forced to. it was not aggressive; it was reckless and STUPID.

[MusicMan]

He's the Cocker Spaniel of players.

I'm reminded of a book called "All Dogs Have ADHD".

[BudGirl]

that is total and complete bullshit, Millsie. unbelievable that he said that if not forced to. it was not aggressive; it was reckless and STUPID.

I'm going on the assumption that is not what he believes only what he told the press.  I can't imagine calling your player a dumbass to the media is the way to manage him.

[JimR]

I'm going on the assumption that is not what he believes only what he told the press.  I can't imagine calling your player a dumbass to the media is the way to manage him.

then he lied if he does not believe it. i respect that even less. he could have said nothing.

[BatGirl]

I'm going on the assumption that is not what he believes only what he told the press.  I can't imagine calling your player a dumbass to the media is the way to manage him.

i thought the same thing after reading the quotes

[BudGirl]

then he lied if he does not believe it. i respect that even less. he could have said nothing.

I think Mills is in a tough spot, yet one he has to handle as manager.  So, he tries not to throw a player to the wolves.  I just hope he's trying to "coach" Hunter in some way.

I didn't see the interview so all I'm doing is making assumptions.

[JimR]

I think Mills is in a tough spot, yet one he has to handle as manager.  So, he tries not to throw a player to the wolves.  I just hope he's trying to "coach" Hunter in some way.

I didn't see the interview so all I'm doing is making assumptions.

i did not say he should do this: So, he tries not to throw a player to the wolves

he can say nothing or something innocuous like "tough play." he does have to all-out defend his play as "aggressive."

[BudGirl]

i did not say he should do this: So, he tries not to throw a player to the wolves

he can say nothing or something innocuous like "tough play." he does have to all-out defend his play as "aggressive."

agreed.  either way, I hope someone is trying to reach that little area in Hunter's head.

[JimR]

agreed.  either way, I hope someone is trying to reach that little area in Hunter's head.

solid rock.

[Ron Brand]

Glossed over in the tag at home discussion is his running through an emphatic stop sign (being aggressive again) and his taking a called third strike in a clutch situation after flailing at a neck-high fastball. You can argue that he was fooled on the third strike although that situation calls for being aggressive, and you can argue that running through the sign resulted in a run and was aggressive, but that's being charitable at best. Ignoring the coach and not defending the plate with two outs, two strikes and runners on is two more examples of cluelessness. Last night's game was the worst display of Hunter's shortcomings that I've ever seen, and Mills has to be trying to find some way to work with him and not throw him under the bus in public.

Seeing the challenges that Mills faces every day makes me respect him a lot more. He has a lot of obstacles to success and so few tools to work with in order to succeed. My head would've exploded if I had his job, but he handles it well, at least publicly.

[Mr. Happy]

that is total and complete bullshit, Millsie. unbelievable that he said that if not forced to. it was not aggressive; it was reckless and STUPID.

There's a very disturbing pattern developing here: he wouldn't listen to Bagwell; he runs through stop signs; he's collosally stupid on the basepaths. Is Pence uncoachable? Or is he just, as my mother would say, dumb overflowing.

[moriartp]

There's a very disturbing pattern developing here: he wouldn't listen to Bagwell; he runs through stop signs; he's collosally stupid on the basepaths. Is Pence uncoachable? Or is he just, as my mother would say, dumb overflowing.

I've seen the thing about not listening to Bagwell mentioned here several times now--what's the origin of that story?

[Gizzmonic]

There's a very disturbing pattern developing here: he wouldn't listen to Bagwell; he runs through stop signs; he's collosally stupid on the basepaths. Is Pence uncoachable? Or is he just, as my mother would say, dumb overflowing.

It's been 4 years.  My dad always used to say, "There's a point where people quit saying 'he's hanging with a bad crowd,' and just say 'he's bad.'"

[Lurch]

I've seen the thing about not listening to Bagwell mentioned here several times now--what's the origin of that story?

Pretty sure Bagwell mentioned it himself in his Saturday appearances last season.  Not directly "won't listen", but rather relating conversations he's had with Pence where Pence felt more comfortable sticking to his style, or something along those lines.  To many of us, the underlying message seemed to be that Hunter was not taking direction well.

[Mr. Happy]

Pretty sure Bagwell mentioned it himself in his Saturday appearances last season.  Not directly "won't listen", but rather relating conversations he's had with Pence where Pence felt more comfortable sticking to his style, or something along those lines.  To many of us, the underlying message seemed to be that Hunter was not taking direction well.

That's my recollection as well. While I recall Bagwell being diplomatic, I came away with the distinct and clear impression that Pence didn't listen to him.

[Reuben]

That's my recollection as well. While I recall Bagwell being diplomatic, I came away with the distinct and clear impression that Pence didn't listen to him.

It's been said that Wallace didn't listen to him either. Which is even more baffling to me.

[Mr. Happy]

It's been said that Wallace didn't listen to him either. Which is even more baffling to me.

But Barnes or someone has gotten Wallace to step a few inches off of the plate, so he appears to be at least coachable.

[94CougarGrad]

I hope someone is trying to reach that little area in Hunter's head.

It's like Area 51. Rumored to exist, but not convincingly proven.

[Ron Brand]

Per McTaggart, Dave Clark and Pence met before tonight's game about running through the stop sign.

"Today, we did talk about a few things I'm going to use with him that are a little different than anybody else," Clark said. "He's a kid that goes out and gives it everything he's got and plays hard, and sometimes he's a little over-aggressive. I'd rather have a guy like that than a guy that's a little passive.

"He's going to come hard on everything. I think we got it all cleared it. Will it happen again? Probably so."

[BudGirl]

makes me think he didn't listen to that either.

[Ron Brand]

makes me think he didn't listen to that either.

Oh no, it's sanctioned. From Ultimate Astros:

How long did it take Pence to get over making the out that took the bat out of Hall’s hands?

“As soon as it happened,” Pence said. “You can’t dwell on a mistake like that.

“I don’t think I would want to take away my aggressiveness. Yeah, I got out, but if I make it, we just need a single to drive in the tying run. You’ve got to be ready to take advantage of an opportunity.”

After the game, Astros manager Brad Mills pointed out that aggressiveness is one of the traits that makes the team and fans alike love Pence. On Friday, Mills said he saw no need to address the eighth-inning play with Pence.

“What you try and do in those situations is make sure the player is aware,” Mills said. “Clarkie does that better than anybody I’ve been around. At the same time, when you do that you don’t want to restrict. One of the biggest values he has is his aggressiveness."

[chuck]

This team is fucked.

[Lurch]

“One of the biggest values he has is his aggressiveness."

Actually, that my be true.

[Ron Brand]

Trade him. Please trade him.

[Mr. Happy]

makes me think he didn't listen to that either.

Yep.

[HudsonHawk]

Oh no, it's sanctioned. From Ultimate Astros:

This makes Pence even more of a dumbass.  Even after the game...after he completely fucked over his teammates, he STILL doesn't know what the situation was.

[Noe]

What I found kind of offensive is the part where Pence himself says his style of play is to "play hard".  I don't think he knows what that means.  "Play hard" also means you know situation, whether hitting, or running bases, or playing defense (and yes, that means that you understand you have teammates out there with you too - like a cut-off man).

"Play hard" does not give you license to play recklessly.  I have respect for Millsie as a leader, but Pence is showing a penchant for being a non-team player.  Somewhere, somehow it will manifest itself in a huge way to make people stop oogling over potential (talent being realized under a controlled, yet aggressive way) and start holding him "accountable" to actions... like everyone else would be.

"Play hard" means you don't *give* the other team outs, or strikes, or the extra base... they have to beat you because you are not giving an inch, you will not be taken out by your own actions, YOU have to beat ME, because I'm not moving from this situation and making it easy for you AT ALL.  That is "play hard", when you can say "I am here to compete, let's play!" and you show it by your actions on the field.  

Seems to me, if you are giving away free outs to the other team consistently, you are not playing hard, you're playing recklessly.

[Rebel Jew]

What I found kind of offensive is the part where Pence himself says his style of play is to "play hard".  I don't think he knows what that means.  "Play hard" also means you know situation, whether hitting, or running bases, or playing defense (and yes, that means that you understand you have teammates out there with you too - like a cut-off man).

"Play hard" does not give you license to play recklessly.  I have respect for Millsie as a leader, but Pence is showing a penchant for being a non-team player.  Somewhere, somehow it will manifest itself in a huge way to make people stop oogling over potential (talent being realized under a controlled, yet aggressive way) and start holding him "accountable" to actions... like everyone else would be.

"Play hard" means you don't *give* the other team outs, or strikes, or the extra base... they have to beat you because you are not giving an inch, you will not be taken out by your own actions, YOU have to beat ME, because I'm not moving from this situation and making it easy for you AT ALL.  That is "play hard", when you can say "I am here to compete, let's play!" and you show it by your actions on the field.  

Seems to me, if you are giving away free outs to the other team consistently, you are not playing hard, you're playing recklessly.

excellent points. "play hard" is very much a platitude, or at best a euphemism for 'visible, obvious strain on face and/or body while trying.' does bourn not play hard? quintero? sanchez? any major leaguer who doesn't try his best at all times will likely be out of his job fairly soon unless he has mad talent in a specific area like manny ramirez or barry bonds.

[Reuben]

I saw Pence take ill-advised hacks at 3-0 pitches his first two times up (the 2nd leading off an inning, with his team down by 4, if I remember correctly) last night, did I miss any other dumbass moments?

[Mr. Happy]

I saw Pence take ill-advised hacks at 3-0 pitches his first two times up (the 2nd leading off an inning, with his team down by 4, if I remember correctly) last night, did I miss any other dumbass moments?

Yes. Atrocious route to the ball early in the game that resulted in extra bases and a run.

[OregonStrosFan]

They had me at hello... Phillies should trade for Hunter Pence

Realistically though (and I don't agree with most of the comments / article), can you envision any (remotely plausible) scenario this season in which the Astros would trade Pence. I can't see them do it, period (though I'd love to see Singleton & Cosart in the system...).

[jbm]

Sure, I can imagine a scenario: maybe present management isn't pleased with Pence, despite their public statements; the club is sold; and the new owner listens to management who would like to deal Pence. It's not that farfetched.

[Reuben]

Sure, I can imagine a scenario: maybe present management isn't pleased with Pence, despite their public statements; the club is sold; and the new owner listens to management who would like to deal Pence. It's not that farfetched.

Or, as the linked story mentions, they duct-tape Lee to Hunter, but that's probably even more unlikely to come about.

Drayton did seem... miffed that Pence won his arb case this year. Maybe Ed can show him some projections that he's going to therefore make scads of money in 2012 and '13, and well...

[Reuben]

Yes. Atrocious route to the ball early in the game that resulted in extra bases and a run.

Oh, right, I did see that. Myers did not look pleased.

[astrosfan76]

They had me at hello... Phillies should trade for Hunter Pence

Realistically though (and I don't agree with most of the comments / article), can you envision any (remotely plausible) scenario this season in which the Astros would trade Pence. I can't see them do it, period (though I'd love to see Singleton & Cosart in the system...).

I find both hard to believe; that the Phillies would make that trade and that we would trade him.  The Phillies were unwilling to trade Singleton for Oswalt, I don't see why they would include him in a deal for Pence.  Sure, Pence is cheaper now (though less so over the next couple of years), but Oswalt was easily more of a difference-maker. 

As maddening as Pence can be, he still has value and is the most recognizable player on the team.  Would Crane/next owner tear down the roster even further?  I hope the next owner has a long-term vision, but he'll likely have a desire to inject enthusiasm among the fanbase, also.  Despite the writings of some local journalists, simply replacing Drayton behind home plate isn't going to do that.  Neither will trading the FotF.  Find a way to trade to trade Lee and there's not going to be much of an uproar, but trade Pence for a couple of A-ball players and who will the casual fan show up to see?

I'm not saying it would be illogical to trade Pence if they can get a good return, but it would be hard for a new owner to further alienate the fanbase.

[Bench]

And now he's you're new cleanup hitter.

[Bench]

Per Fuckhouse: Mills says Wallace is feeling good and will likely play tomorrow. Meanwhile trying to get some speed ahead of Hunter in lineup.

[moriartp]

I'm not saying it would be illogical to trade Pence if they can get a good return, but it would be hard for a new owner to further alienate the fanbase.

Which is why I'm slightly worried that a new owner will lock him up as a first move to ingratiate himself to the masses. Lock him up in a contract, I mean, not in a cage... though I'm sure the latter would do more to ingratiate him to this site.

[jbm]

I don't discount the idea that a new owner will be like Drayton and assume he needs Pence as the fotf, but I wonder if Drayton's tenure has given that value undue status. There are plenty of franchises who don't cloud their baseball decisions with these debatable business considerations.  Pence is no Bagwell or Biggio, and there aren't that many butts in the seats anyway.

[astrosfan76]

Which is why I'm slightly worried that a new owner will lock him up as a first move to ingratiate himself to the masses. Lock him up in a contract, I mean, not in a cage... though I'm sure the latter would do more to ingratiate him to this site.

I would hope that locking him up wouldn't be seen as a way to invigorate the fanbase (esp. since we already have him for 2 more seasons), but I think the opposite would be the concern.  If you keep him and make a splash in the offseason via trade or signing, then people start talking about the Astros.  But, if you trade him when payroll is already low, then you're seen as cheap.  Since there is no quick fix for the team and no Mike Trout-esque prospect that fans are clamoring to see, we're probably stuck with him for now. 

[astrosfan76]

I don't discount the idea that a new owner will be like Drayton and assume he needs Pence as the fotf, but I wonder if Drayton's tenure has given that value undue status. There are plenty of franchises who don't cloud their baseball decisions with these debatable business considerations.  Pence is no Bagwell or Biggio, and there aren't that many butts in the seats anyway.

I'm not going to disagree that a team doesn't "need" a fotf, but at the moment, there is no need to and no candidate to replace him at his position.  While there aren't that many butts in the seats, it's not hard to imagine that it would be even worse without Pence.  I'm not saying he needs to be a lifer, or that we have to lock him up past '13, but creating bad blood with your first move isn't the way new owners normally go about things.  Next year, after he's begun to set a tone for his tenure, he may feel he has the credibility, but probably not out of the gate.

[BudGirl]

I'm not going to disagree that a team doesn't "need" a fotf, but at the moment, there is no need to and no candidate to replace him at his position.  While there aren't that many butts in the seats, it's not hard to imagine that it would be even worse without Pence.  I'm not saying he needs to be a lifer, or that we have to lock him up past '13, but creating bad blood with your first move isn't the way new owners normally go about things.  Next year, after he's begun to set a tone for his tenure, he may feel he has the credibility, but probably not out of the gate.

a team does need a fotf, but not one that is shoved down the throats of the fans.  franchise players are special (biggio, bagwell, other hall of fame type players), pence is not.  would anyone say pence is better or as good as jose cruz or jimmy wynn?  they have their numbers retired and i don't think of them as franchise "faces".

[Rebel Jew]

I'm not going to disagree that a team doesn't "need" a fotf, but at the moment, there is no need to and no candidate to replace him at his position.  While there aren't that many butts in the seats, it's not hard to imagine that it would be even worse without Pence.  I'm not saying he needs to be a lifer, or that we have to lock him up past '13, but creating bad blood with your first move isn't the way new owners normally go about things.  Next year, after he's begun to set a tone for his tenure, he may feel he has the credibility, but probably not out of the gate.

if the team wins then butts will fill the seats. i highly doubt there's many houstonians who go to the ballpark to see that dumbass play, or stop what they're doing and shut the hell up when he's up to bat.

there was a little kid across the street from me growing up who had terminal cancer. after he met craig biggio he was as happy as you could imagine for the rest of his short life. the only person who hunter could make that happy would be some 26 year-old skeezer in baytown who slept with hunter then got 3 cherries on her home pregnancy test.

[astrosfan76]

if the team wins then butts will fill the seats. i highly doubt there's many houstonians who go to the ballpark to see that dumbass play, or stop what they're doing and shut the hell up when he's up to bat.

there was a little kid across the street from me growing up who had terminal cancer. after he met craig biggio he was as happy as you could imagine for the rest of his short life. the only person who hunter could make that happy would be some 26 year-old skeezer in baytown who slept with hunter then got 3 cherries on her home pregnancy test.

Tell me how you really feel about the guy. 

Sure, winning teams fill more seats.  But, I think you underestimate his popularity among casual fans.  Anyway, the point isn't that we should just keep the guy around because kids and women like him.  It's not about comparing him to HOF players.  It's about the perception that trading him for prospects would send.  Will Crane/whoever be willing to take the PR hit, even if it turns out well 3 years from now?

[94CougarGrad]

there was a little kid across the street from me growing up who had terminal cancer. after he met craig biggio he was as happy as you could imagine for the rest of his short life. the only person who hunter could make that happy would be some 26 year-old skeezer in baytown who slept with hunter then got 3 cherries on her home pregnancy test.

Old Baytown.

[Navin R Johnson]

They had me at hello... Phillies should trade for Hunter Pence

From that link.  I have no idea what UZR is, but judging by how it rates Pence, it aint real accurate.

"Pence turned 28 years old earlier this month and is still in the prime of his career. From 2008-10, the only right fielder with a higher UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating, an advanced fielding stat that properly incorporates a player’s range) is Ichiro Suzuki. More commonly quoted numbers agree: in the same span, Pence’s 41 outfield assists top all other outfielders. He might look a bit clunky and uncoordinated in the field, especially with that odd throwing motion, but he gets the job done."

[OregonStrosFan]

From that link.  I have no idea what UZR is, but judging by how it rates Pence, it aint real accurate.

No kidding.

[moriartp]

Unfortunately, the Phillies probably have people who actually watch games.

[Ron Brand]

One of them is there right now - Charley Kerfeld, scouting away.

[Lurch]

From that link.  I have no idea what UZR is, but judging by how it rates Pence, it aint real accurate.

what a spectacular failure of a stat.  Back to the drawing board on that one

[Reuben]

what a spectacular failure of a stat.  Back to the drawing board on that one

bb-ref now lists a stat called "dWAR" which I think is Defensive Wins Above Replacement- don't ask me what the hell it uses or means- but Pence is in the minus for his career.

[Ron Brand]

Looks like they've broken up WAR into offensive and defensive components.