Author Topic: Something something something Dark Side  (Read 5244 times)

GreatBagwellsBeard

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Something something something Dark Side
« on: April 09, 2011, 04:37:33 pm »
After being a PC since my dad brought home a 286 that allowed me to play Hardball with a stunning 8 colors, I'm expecting arrival of my MacBook Air next week.

I feel so dirty.  But I also feel like I won't have to worry about any of the bullshit that's affected my last three PC's.

Anybody got experience with the Air?
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chuck

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2011, 05:07:38 pm »
Anybody got experience with the Air?

Yes. I don't ask a lot of it but for me it is an ideal traveling computer. You stick it in a bag and it's like it's not even there. I bought some external devices to enhance its functionality, a disc drive for one thing, and I'll probably buy an external hard drive for music storage and back-ups, but on the whole my experience has been completely positive.

I don't understand why anyone who doesn't actually, actively enjoy fucking around with PCs when they break or misbehave doesn't use a Mac of some sort.
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Alkie

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2011, 08:01:59 pm »
Remember that chuck doesn't have what the rest of us would call "a job" and that he only uses his computer to take upskirt photos at the Mercado.

chuck

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2011, 09:57:55 pm »
I don't have what the rest of you would call "a boss," no, but neither do you.

You'll be happy to learn that last week I used my MacBook Air to write a couple of "contracts" and convert them to PDFs before sending them along to "clients."

And then I went back to organizing my photos - mercado, centro comercial, playa, etc.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 02:31:06 am »
After being a PC since my dad brought home a 286 that allowed me to play Hardball with a stunning 8 colors, I'm expecting arrival of my MacBook Air next week.

I feel so dirty.  But I also feel like I won't have to worry about any of the bullshit that's affected my last three PC's.

Anybody got experience with the Air?

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Alkie

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 07:20:29 am »
I don't have what the rest of you would call "a boss," no, but neither do you.

You'll be happy to learn that last week I used my MacBook Air to write a couple of "contracts" and convert them to PDFs before sending them along to "clients."

Not possible on a Mac.   Macs are only good for taking useless photos, video, and audio and then manipulating them further to love one's self in ways most psychologists didn't think possible.   You can't use Mac to conduct business in the Western sense.

Ron Brand

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2011, 08:30:38 am »
The day Macs add a removable storage option is the day I consider them.
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Waldo

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2011, 11:25:16 am »
The day Macs add a removable storage option is the day I consider them.

They'll do it eventually, but it will be proprietary and start with an i.

Ron Brand

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2011, 11:29:55 am »
They'll do it eventually, but it will be proprietary and start with an i.

I steadfastly resent being put in an iBox.
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Rebel Jew

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2011, 12:06:54 pm »
The day Macs add a removable storage option is the day I consider them.

I don't know much about computers, and I know even less about the mac vs. pc subculture, but based on my casual observations and use of both over the years it seems very obvious that macs are the significantly better computer in every way, and that their company is far more technologically innovative. What am I missing that would cause these arguments?

BizidyDizidy

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2011, 12:11:03 pm »
I don't know much about computers, and I know even less about the mac vs. pc subculture, but based on my casual observations and use of both over the years it seems very obvious that macs are the significantly better computer in every way, and that their company is far more technologically innovative. What am I missing that would cause these arguments?

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook?aid=AIC-NAUS-K2-BUYNOW-MACBOOK-INDEX&cp=BUYNOW-MACBOOK-INDEX

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-14r-combo-mod/pd?oc=fncom48ar&model_id=inspiron-14r-combo-mod

I don't really keep up with what processors are the best, etc. but I think that except for maybe the macbook having a better video card, these are essentially equivalent computers. One is $1,000, one is $400.

ETA: Actually, it looks like the Dell has a significantly better processor - http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 12:13:46 pm by BizidyDizidy »
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 12:13:30 pm »
I don't know much about computers, and I know even less about the mac vs. pc subculture, but based on my casual observations and use of both over the years it seems very obvious that macs are the significantly better computer in every way, and that their company is far more technologically innovative. What am I missing that would cause these arguments?

I don't know if you're just trolling or if you're being serious.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 01:20:49 pm »
I don't know if you're just trolling or if you're being serious.

no, i'm being serious and i freely admit that i don't know much about this topic. just in my experience, macs seem to be way better built and they seem to last way longer, they don't get viruses, the display seems, i don't know, wider or fuller if that makes sense. things just seem to work better on a mac than on the pc's i've had. and when i've had to do real work like video editing, sound recording, or when my wife does her graphic design, it seems backwards to not do them on a mac.

so in layman's terms, what is the appeal of an average pc over an average mac, aside from price? i'm not being snarky, i'm genuinely curious.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2011, 02:26:24 pm »
I love my Macbook Air.

Ron Brand

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2011, 02:46:46 pm »
no, i'm being serious and i freely admit that i don't know much about this topic. just in my experience, macs seem to be way better built and they seem to last way longer, they don't get viruses, the display seems, i don't know, wider or fuller if that makes sense. things just seem to work better on a mac than on the pc's i've had. and when i've had to do real work like video editing, sound recording, or when my wife does her graphic design, it seems backwards to not do them on a mac.

so in layman's terms, what is the appeal of an average pc over an average mac, aside from price? i'm not being snarky, i'm genuinely curious.

What you're doing is mixing your opinions and perceptions and treating them as facts.

1. "macs seem to be way better built and they seem to last way longer"

They're just machines. Apples are built by people under Apple's umbrella. PCs are built by any company who wants to manufacture the components or assemble the components. You can get superior components or inferior ones, depending upon who you buy from and how much you want to spend. With Apple, the variation is much smaller - they're built to be pretty much the same. PCs aren't built by PC, Inc. but by lots of companies. You can get a rock-solid PC that runs for many, many years without problems if you buy better components. Buy the cheap shit and take your chances.

2. "they don't get viruses"

Yeah, they do, but the difference is Windows is something like 80% of the computing universe, so it is the target for virus scripting and testing. If you're writing a virus to make you money somehow, would you target 10-15% of the available machines, or 75-80% of the millions out there?

3. "the display seems, i don't know, wider or fuller"

This is not a Mac vs. PC issue that I can figure out. There are different sizes of monitors, different video cards, different ways the OS uses the screen, but they all go edge to edge and they are the same sizes or resolutions. I'm in the dark on what you're meaning here.

4. "things just seem to work better on a mac than on the pc's i've had"

Again, this is your feeling and your perception and that's part of why people buy what they buy, because they're comfortable with how it works for them. Also, see #1 - you buy cheap stuff, it might not work as well as something built with better parts.

5. "when i've had to do real work like video editing, sound recording, or when my wife does her graphic design, it seems backwards to not do them on a mac"

There's two things at work here. One, this is what you're used to, so it will seem comfortable to you. I've used PCs since 1982. I'm totally comfortable getting under the hood with them, I can rebuild them, I can build them, I can fiddle with the programs, the operating system, the individual components, none of that bothers me at all. I understand the way they work and it's what I'm used to. I was comfortable with them when it was DOS and I was comfortable when they were trying to force Windows to act like Apple's OS, despite the underlying differences. Now, they are much, much closer in many of the ways that the programs work on both systems.

That being said, I am frequently completely lost when I use a Mac. It seems to me that it has been dumbed down so much that I guess I just don't have any idea what an instinctual action would be for someone on a computer - I know very well how to do things, how to approach tasks on a program, but it never occurs to me to dumb my approach down so much to do something on a Mac. What I take for simplicity must still be far too complex, because I am pretty much stonewalled when I sit down to use one. I hate that, it's infuriating that I can't figure it out after 30 years of serious PC experience.

The other part of that is that Macs used to be much more efficient in allocating and using memory for media tasks, it's how they were designed. Since then, that gap has closed because PCs changed their approach and offloaded most of the computations to chips and cards and removed that from the CPU. The differences now are more of software that runs on the OS, and there have to be some similarities because a lot of the more popular programs are built for both platforms.

At any rate, I don't know how you get from there to "macs are the significantly better computer in every way, and that their company is far more technologically innovative." Macs are built by Apple. No one company builds PCs, so you can spend a little and get a really fine one or spend $250 and get something questionable but cheap as hell. Either way, it's significantly less money than you would spend on an Apple, because it's a closed architecture and built by one company.

Macs have better styling. They are closed though, meaning that you are unable to modify them or go outside of Apple's approved partners for anything complimentary to the machine itself. I find that sort of limitation to be a deal-breaker. I also have a huge problem with the whole 'Genius' appellation. Ugh.

So, for me, the differences are 1) price, which can be significantly less for a PC; 2) closed system, which I abhor - do NOT limit my ability to do something with the machine I paid for; 3) what I'm comfortable with - I am completely at a loss with Apple's OS. If you like the styling and you're comfortable working with a Mac and don't mind paying more for a comparable PC, then hey - enjoy it. They're pretty much two sides of a coin though, the differences aren't staggering by any means.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2011, 06:03:11 pm »
Ditto.

Ron Brand

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2011, 06:42:59 pm »
I'm in love with rock and roll and I'll be out all night.

Waldo

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2011, 08:12:16 pm »
Ron pretty much summed it up for me.  Mac vs. PC is a completely subjective argument.

Honestly I think the MacBook Pro is a pretty sweet piece of hardware, and being able to run Windows on it is a plus.  However I will never own one because the keyboard layout is not what I'm accustomed to and it does not have a right mouse button.  I know you can two-finger-tap to right-click, but as someone who likes using the actual buttons on a touchpad that does not work for me.  I also had a friend try to convince me once that, all things being equal, option-clicking (or whatever it is) was actually more convenient than right-clicking.  Bogus.

And for all the Flash bashing Steve Jobs does in an attempt to prop up Apple's desire to support standards (e.g. HTML5), the rest of the Apple universe is about on par with Sony in terms of requiring proprietary hardware and/or connections.  Want to connect a monitor to your MacBook?  Hope you've got your mini-VGA/mini-DVI dongle handy.  Lose your iPhone cable?  Off to the Apple store to overpay for a glorified USB cable (and, BTW, you have to get the Apple brand because if it doesn't have the Apple logo it just isn't as good).  If Apple made digital cameras they would invent some dumbass connector that nobody else uses instead of a standard mini-USB, and it's a small wonder that they put a 3.5mm jack in all of their iPods.  No doubt that they have their reasons for doing proprietary stuff because the fanboys will buy them without thinking twice, but for those of us that

As for OS X, it's a fine OS, it just doesn't fit with my workflow.  IMO when I close a program I shouldn't have to click through a menu to do it.  That would be equivalent to clicking File -> Exit in Windows all the time, which seems counterintuitive.  OS X is also confusing to me regarding how programs are installed or not installed, but it's probably just due to inexperience on my part.

Finally, to Joey's "they are built better and last way longer" comment - inequivalent Mac vs. PC comparisons are probably my biggest pet peeve.  There are a bunch of crappy PC laptops out there, but they are often on the cheaper end of the spectrum and build quality falls on the individual manufacturers, not "The PC".  Ever used a Thinkpad?  I would put any Thinkpad's durability up against any MacBook/Pro/Air any day of the week.  Similarly, I've found that when someone says "Macs are faster than PCs" they are usually comparing apples and oranges.  I once read a magazine article praising the MacBook Air because it thrashed the performance of a number of netbooks.  Real shocker there, considering that the Air sported a dual-core Core 2 and cost 3X more while the netbooks all had single-core low-power Atom CPUs whose processing power is roughly on par with a Pentium III.

Make no mistake, I think Apple does a lot of good things.  Their music player is the best on the market, and sure beats the hell out of any I've tried for my EVO (and was also the reason I borrowed my sister's old iPhone just to play music in the car on the way to opening day).  The iMac remains the best computer in its form factor.  The Mac Mini continually fascinates me with how much computer (and power) they crammed into such a small space for that price.  And the Thunderbolt technology has some real promise, and since it's Intel's technology I hope it makes its way to PCs eventually.  But for all of those plusses, Apple also has a lot of headscratchers.

BizidyDizidy

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2011, 08:19:54 pm »
I just bought my wife this computer:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=C63BB22720313B14F5906FFA72CB90D5&action=init

My theory is that it is a macbook air at a 60% discount. I hope that is correct, then I will be able to get my netbook (a shittier lenovo) back.
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Limey

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2011, 08:21:17 pm »
A couple of points of order:

Macs run faster with slower processors than PCs, because of the efficiencies and economies built into the operating system.

My Mac mouse has a right-click.  Its whole upper surface is a multitouch pad, so I can right click anywhere on the righthand side.  I can also scroll in any direction, and use two fingers to goes forwards and backwards through web pages, as well as zoom and twist.  

I find the Mac keyboard much more logical, but both are essentially the same.

On my PC at work, I have two screens and customarily have only two windows visible, one maximized on each screen.   On my 27" iMac, I customarily have multiple windows open - taking advantage of the principle behind "windows" - because the OS makes it much more usable to do so.   The fact that my PC won't recognize the window over which my mouse is hovering, without me having to click it to tell it where I am, is a constant annoyance.  

Closing apps is achieved also by right-clicking on the icon in the dock (the same way I close most of my apps on my work PC) or through the menu system.  You close windows and apps separately, which I thought was kind of the point.  

Apps are deleted by dragging them to the trash or right-clicking and and selecting "Move to Trash".  There is no elaborate (and incomplete) control panel to delete apps, because the Mac OS has its shit urn control.  
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 08:32:20 pm by Limey »
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2011, 08:26:19 pm »
I just bought my wife this computer:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=C63BB22720313B14F5906FFA72CB90D5&action=init

My theory is that it is a macbook air at a 60% discount. I hope that is correct, then I will be able to get my netbook (a shittier lenovo) back.

Bought my wife a Lenovo last year, too - she loves it.  I use Lenovos for work travel, a Dell desktop for work at the office (bleh) and a shiny new Asus laptop for my personal rig.  I have nothing against Mac (have an iPhone, would love an iPad), but the time has just never been right to switch.

To echo what Waldo said above, I tend to have more problems with a particular manufacturer than the blanket "PC" group.
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Astroholic

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2011, 09:51:58 am »
A couple of points of order:

Macs run faster with slower processors than PCs, because of the efficiencies and economies built into the operating system.


Ubuntu screams on my old dell laptop compared to XP.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 09:53:19 am »
And much of the stated reasons is why I have a droid over an iphone.  I can open the back and change the battery or add a mini sd card.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2011, 10:05:59 am »
Same here. I put the brick battery and 16gb card in my evo and it's great.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2011, 10:26:53 am »
Macs run faster with slower processors than PCs, because of the efficiencies and economies built into the operating system.

Depends on the software. My experience with scientific computing its a coin toss (therefore a big win for Windows and Linux systems since the systems are so much cheaper).

Quote
On my PC at work, I have two screens and customarily have only two windows visible, one maximized on each screen.   On my 27" iMac, I customarily have multiple windows open - taking advantage of the principle behind "windows" - because the OS makes it much more usable to do so.   The fact that my PC won't recognize the window over which my mouse is hovering, without me having to click it to tell it where I am, is a constant annoyance.  

There is an option in the Windows 7 Control Panel for this setting. I'm an alt-tab guy myself.

Quote
Apps are deleted by dragging them to the trash or right-clicking and and selecting "Move to Trash".  There is no elaborate (and incomplete) control panel to delete apps, because the Mac OS has its shit urn control.  

This is why Macs require more training than Windows. If you can read you can use Windows.

I like OS X, especially the Unix back end, but I bet most people don't care about that.  I found a cluster of OS X servers a total pain in the ass to maintain, but most people don't care about that either. I wish Intel would give away their Fortran 90 compiler for Mac, like they do for Windows and Linux.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 10:38:46 am »
Ubuntu screams on my old dell laptop compared to XP.


Perhaps I should have qualified my statement better:  Macs running OS X run faster with slower chips than PC's running Windows.  It's Windows that is the resources hog.
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Astroholic

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2011, 11:31:07 am »
Perhaps I should have qualified my statement better:  Macs running OS X run faster with slower chips than PC's running Windows.  It's Windows that is the resources hog.

7 is better.  If rumors are correct the next iteration will be even smaller/faster.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2011, 11:36:44 am »
7 is better.  If rumors are correct the next iteration will be even smaller/faster.

Just like Bill Gates' penis.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2011, 11:44:22 am »
Just like Bill Gates' penis.

I wouldnt know.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2011, 11:55:43 am »
I just bought my wife this computer:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=C63BB22720313B14F5906FFA72CB90D5&action=init

My theory is that it is a macbook air at a 60% discount. I hope that is correct, then I will be able to get my netbook (a shittier lenovo) back.

That's not a bad guess.  From what I can tell the 1.4GHz Air has an Intel SU9400 in it, which benchmarks a little better (maybe not noticeably) than the Fusion E350 in two of those X120's.  Obviously benchmarks don't tell the whole story (and the SSD in the Air will probably be faster than the X120's HDD), but they're good for estimates.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2011, 12:01:34 pm »
My Mac mouse has a right-click.  Its whole upper surface is a multitouch pad, so I can right click anywhere on the righthand side.  I can also scroll in any direction, and use two fingers to goes forwards and backwards through web pages, as well as zoom and twist. 

I'm talking touchpads.  Any goon can use a mouse with a Mac, even a mouse without an Apple logo.  But I shouldn't have to connect an inconvenient external mouse to get the same functionality every other PC laptop has.

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2011, 12:11:56 pm »
no, i'm being serious and i freely admit that i don't know much about this topic. just in my experience, macs seem to be way better built and they seem to last way longer, they don't get viruses, the display seems, i don't know, wider or fuller if that makes sense. things just seem to work better on a mac than on the pc's i've had. and when i've had to do real work like video editing, sound recording, or when my wife does her graphic design, it seems backwards to not do them on a mac.

so in layman's terms, what is the appeal of an average pc over an average mac, aside from price? i'm not being snarky, i'm genuinely curious.

Macs are monolithic due to Apple's vertical integration.  Since they control the hardware, the operating system, and usually the software, they can't play pass the buck.  Macs have been #1 in graphic design since the 80's because they had a decent GUI in the 80's and PCs with DOS did not.

Likewise with the video editing or sound recording.  I grew up on DOS PCs; I switched to Macs in the late 90's when I started doing video editing.  You would not believe the hassles I had editing video on an Adobe Premiere rig using Windows NT.  Adobe blamed Miro (the video capture card company), the video capture card company blamed Microsoft, Microsoft blamed Miro's drivers, etc.   Since Apple makes Final Cut Pro, when you have something go wrong, you only have one company to yell at.  Of course, it's a double-edged sword.  There are a lot of good editing programs (like Vegas Video) that you'll never see on Mac because Mac users prefer Apple over any other brand.

I'm a Mac guy, but I use Linux and even a little Windows at work.  The right tool for the right job, you know?
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2011, 12:27:07 pm »
I'm talking touchpads.  Any goon can use a mouse with a Mac, even a mouse without an Apple logo.  But I shouldn't have to connect an inconvenient external mouse to get the same functionality every other PC laptop has.

I hate the standard Mac mouse too.  BUT, I have also hated the mouse that came with every PC I've ever owned, and always added a different mouse.  Of course, I haven't bought a new PC for about 5 years, but my work HP laptop came equipped with a shitty mouse that keep now only for travel.

Conversely, the Apple Magic Mouse is the best mouse I've ever used.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2011, 12:52:23 pm »
That's not a bad guess.  From what I can tell the 1.4GHz Air has an Intel SU9400 in it, which benchmarks a little better (maybe not noticeably) than the Fusion E350 in two of those X120's.  Obviously benchmarks don't tell the whole story (and the SSD in the Air will probably be faster than the X120's HDD), but they're good for estimates.

Yeah, I went for the middle one (with the E350). Instead of paying them $80 bucks to get 2 more GB of RAM, I just ordered another DIMM from newegg for 20 bucks.
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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2011, 01:05:01 pm »
I hate the standard Mac mouse too.  BUT, I have also hated the mouse that came with every PC I've ever owned, and always added a different mouse.  Of course, I haven't bought a new PC for about 5 years, but my work HP laptop came equipped with a shitty mouse that keep now only for travel.

Conversely, the Apple Magic Mouse is the best mouse I've ever used.

Once again, I'm not talking about mice, I'm talking about touchpads.  I find the MacBooks' touchpads to be inferior at a very fundamental level.

Limey

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Re: Something something something Dark Side
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2011, 01:19:16 pm »
Once again, I'm not talking about mice, I'm talking about touchpads.  I find the MacBooks' touchpads to be inferior at a very fundamental level.

Ah.  I've never used a Macbook touchpad and have an aversion to using the one on my HP laptop.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.