Interesting article on pitching mechanics

[MusicMan]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tom_verducci/03/08/stephen.strasburg.mechanics/

Would love to hear the thoughts of Jim and other folks on hear who are more intimately familiar with pitching mechanics.

[Mr. Happy]

The evidence that Verducci offers of other pitchers who had a similar "loaded" characteristic certainly seems compelling at first blush. However, it is hard to say anything definitive without viewing Strasburg on slow-motion video, which, in my opinion, is the only way for the human eye to really catch up enough to see what is going on. I videotaped every kid I coached. I would always see things in slow-motion that I missed from an eyeball look, even where I was concentrating closely on the pitcher. Coach and others may have a different view on that, and their eyes may be better than mine though. 

[JimR]

way too technical for me. i coach "elbow above the shoulder" during the throwing motion to keep the pitcher on top of the ball. i have no idea about the timing with the lead foot and have never thought about that. i concur that the arm's being early or late with the rest of the body's move toward the target puts undue strain on the arm because it basically is acting alone.

[Mr. Happy]

way too technical for me. i coach "elbow above the shoulder" during the throwing motion to keep the pitcher on top of the ball. i have no idea about the timing with the lead foot and have never thought about that. i concur that the arm's being early or late with the rest of the body's move toward the target puts undue strain on the arm because it basically is acting alone.

I agree, Coach. Elbow always above the shoulder.

[jbm]

Big thanks on the link.  One of the points in the article was about the specific issue of loading at poot plant.  I have been following this topic for a while, and am aware that there are some very passionate opinions on pitching mechanics in general, and on this matter in particular.  I have an odd curioisity on the subject, but no specific knowledge or experience, and therfore, no opinion.

On a related aside: There is this guy, can't think of his name, that created the term of "inverted W" and "inverted L."  Basically, these were visual cues, or a description of the arm(s) well before foot plant.  The basic claim is that being in either an inverted W or inverted L position is a sign that the timing is off, which will cause the arm to not quite be loaded (lag) at footplant.  The belief is that this causes excess strain on the elbow and/or shoulder.  

At any rate, this guy, not a baseball man, was completely ridiculed by almost everyone (that I heard from) for his inverted W and inverted L theories.  From my point of view, if he would have scrapped the inverted W and L terminology, and solely focused on the timing issue, he would have received far less ridicule.  If he was an accomplished baseball person, he would have also received far less grief.

I never got the impression that teams were considering that specific mechanical issue in their evaluations.  The impression I got was:  pitching injuries are basically impossible to predict.  Therefore, we won't try to predict them, and therefore, predictions will not cloud our drafting or free agency decisions.

Based on the article, that philosophy is changing, at least with some clubs.

Fascinating topic.  Thanks for the link.

[EasTexAstro]

I'll show my ignorance here just by saying I would have thought you would have had to have almost perfect form to throw at that speed, under control, for as long as he has. While never an example of perfect masculine form, I once was in pretty dern good shape. Even being extremely strong and athletic, hitting the high 90's, and be in control, is not the easiest thing. While this article says otherwise, I still believe most of the stress would come from the breaking pitches. That is where I destroyed my shoulder and elbow...I think.

[Taras Bulba]

I'll show my ignorance here just by saying I would have thought you would have had to have almost perfect form to throw at that speed, under control, for as long as he has. While never an example of perfect masculine form, I once was in pretty dern good shape. Even being extremely strong and athletic, hitting the high 90's, and be in control, is not the easiest thing. While this article says otherwise, I still believe most of the stress would come from the breaking pitches. That is where I destroyed my shoulder and elbow...I think.

A tip for young players of today is to get in the good habit of jerking off with the glove hand.

[HudsonHawk]

way too technical for me. i coach "elbow above the shoulder" during the throwing motion to keep the pitcher on top of the ball. i have no idea about the timing with the lead foot and have never thought about that. i concur that the arm's being early or late with the rest of the body's move toward the target puts undue strain on the arm because it basically is acting alone.

As a catcher, the most often advice I give pitchers during a game is "keep your elbow up" and "keep your shoulders square.". In other words, don't let your arm sag or drag. Well, that and "forget about the hitter, throw to the mitt.". But that's not mechanical.

[Gleek]

"loading at poot plant."

*snicker*

Yes, I am the most juvenile 33 year old on the planet.

[das]

I thought this to be the most interesting comment in the article:

"Strasburg never threw 100 pitches in his 12 starts last year. Indeed, with the ubiquity of pitch counts and media coverage, the development of Strasburg probably was the most closely-watched and conservative development of any star pitching prospect in baseball history -- and he still blew out at age 22."

Better (longer) conditioning is no guarantee for durability but you have to wonder if better conditioning in the past has guarded against injury for the many pitchers of old that did not have an uber-analyzed, highly tweaked delivery motion.

[Mr. Happy]

I thought this to be the most interesting comment in the article:

"Strasburg never threw 100 pitches in his 12 starts last year. Indeed, with the ubiquity of pitch counts and media coverage, the development of Strasburg probably was the most closely-watched and conservative development of any star pitching prospect in baseball history -- and he still blew out at age 22."

Better (longer) conditioning is no guarantee for durability but you have to wonder if better conditioning in the past has guarded against injury for the many pitchers of old that did not have an uber-analyzed, highly tweaked delivery motion.

Pitch counts are bullshit. Pure and simple.

[strosrays]

I thought this to be the most interesting comment in the article:

"Strasburg never threw 100 pitches in his 12 starts last year. Indeed, with the ubiquity of pitch counts and media coverage, the development of Strasburg probably was the most closely-watched and conservative development of any star pitching prospect in baseball history -- and he still blew out at age 22."

Better (longer) conditioning is no guarantee for durability but you have to wonder if better conditioning in the past has guarded against injury for the many pitchers of old that did not have an uber-analyzed, highly tweaked delivery motion.

The Dusty-Baker-blew-out-Mark-Prior's-arm crowd isn't going to like this.  Maybe it didn't really matter if Baker let Prior go to 120 pitches or if he'd held him at 85 or 90.  Maybe Prior was just injury-prone.  Or, like Kerry Wood, maybe the damage had already been done before he was even drafted.

[Ron Brand]

The Dusty-Baker-blew-out-Mark-Prior's-arm crowd isn't going to like this.  Maybe it didn't really matter if Baker let Prior go to 120 pitches or if he'd held him at 85 or 90.  Maybe Prior was just injury-prone.  Or, like Kerry Wood, maybe the damage had already been done before he was even drafted.

I thought there was a lot more to the Dusty Baker hate than running Prior to 120. Wasn't the knock on him that he'd keep running guys out there consistently to high and really high counts, especially late in the season? And wasn't his past littered with quick flameout guys who'd had ace potential? Coop was cast from a similar mold.

Except Coop's guys were relievers and they didn't make it to late in the season because he'd burned them up earlier.

ETA: Simple research comes up with the further murkiness regarding the value of pitch counts, as Dusty's starters averaged about five extra pitches per start so on a total innings / average pitch count that is probably meaningless. I remember reading something about consecutive high counts somewhere but I don't think that was necessarily related to Dusty Baker, just an overall study of pitcher breakdowns and stresses. I think even a cursor look shows Baker to not be the Vader of Pitching Staffs, but I'm going to try to find that other study and see what else is in there.

[geezerdonk]

I thought the Dusty Baker hate was because of that stupid fucking toothpick.

[Mr. Happy]

I thought there was a lot more to the Dusty Baker hate than running Prior to 120. Wasn't the knock on him that he'd keep running guys out there consistently to high and really high counts, especially late in the season? And wasn't his past littered with quick flameout guys who'd had ace potential? Coop was cast from a similar mold.

Except Coop's guys were relievers and they didn't make it to late in the season because he'd burned them up earlier.

ETA: Simple research comes up with the further murkiness regarding the value of pitch counts, as Dusty's starters averaged about five extra pitches per start so on a total innings / average pitch count that is probably meaningless. I remember reading something about consecutive high counts somewhere but I don't think that was necessarily related to Dusty Baker, just an overall study of pitcher breakdowns and stresses. I think even a cursor look shows Baker to not be the Vader of Pitching Staffs, but I'm going to try to find that other study and see what else is in there.

It's a function of mechanics and types of pitches thrown-not pitch counts.

[Ron Brand]

It's a function of mechanics and types of pitches thrown-not pitch counts.

Yeah, I think the only real linkage you can make to high pitch counts is in successive very high ones without enough of a break in between. When you've got a guy who throws 128, 135, 154, 143, 110 for his last five starts you're increasing the chance for arm problems, as much from fatigue affecting motion as anything. Pitch counts, in isolation, don't mean much if your pitcher is in shape.

[Mr. Happy]

Yeah, I think the only real linkage you can make to high pitch counts is in successive very high ones without enough of a break in between. When you've got a guy who throws 128, 135, 154, 143, 110 for his last five starts you're increasing the chance for arm problems, as much from fatigue affecting motion as anything. Pitch counts, in isolation, don't mean much if your pitcher is in shape.

I don't know that I even buy that link--look at the number of innings pitchers used to go with only three days rest. To the point you made earlier about Cooper, his problem was as much the number of times that he got a pitcher up as it was the number of appearances that pitcher made. Cooper was infamous for getting the same guy up more than twice in the same game. You need to ascertain a pitcher's regular throwing schedule and stick to it for the bulk of the season. And when a pitcher is unavailable on a given day, he's unavailable. Don't get him up that day. Very few guys could endure what, for example, Mike Marshall endured in 1974 (106 appearances; 162 innings), but he's a pitching mechanics professor now, so I assume that he had really good technique back then.

[Ron Brand]

Chasing pitcher's injuries is like chasing the Holy Grail - if you could find the reason and employ it the benefits would be priceless, but looking at the problem from a counting point of view clearly isn't the answer.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

I think pitch counts are part of the scientific process of evaluation. But, using a predetermined specific established pitch count is not scientific at all because it discounts too many dynamic variables. Fatigue, opponent, ballpark, weather, etc., for example, all play a factor in a pitchers comfort level, mentality, and overall effectiveness on any given day. This is easily observed by anyone with an experienced eye.  

[Limey]

Maybe Prior was just injury-prone.  Or, like Kerry Wood, maybe the damage had already been done before he was even drafted.

Mark Prior was semi-retarded?

[Mr. Happy]

I think pitch counts are part of the scientific process of evaluation. But, using a predetermined specific established pitch count is not scientific at all because it discounts too many dynamic variables. Fatigue, opponent, ballpark, weather, etc., for example, all play a factor in a pitchers comfort level, mentality, and overall effectiveness on any given day. This is easily observed by anyone with an experienced eye.  

This is spot on. There are hot and humid days when you're vanquished after warmup and less than 60 tosses. There are other days when you can go 170 pitches.

[MusicMan]

There are hot and humid days when you're vanquished after warmup and less than 60 tosses. There are other days when you can go 170 pitches.

Much like, ahem, other activities.

[austro]

Much like, ahem, other activities.

Singing the national anthem or selling peanuts in the stands?

[MusicMan]

Singing the national anthem or selling peanuts in the stands?

Gawd, not THOSE.  I have standards.  Unlike those that love Manhattan women.