Carlos Lee & Cabrera

[VirtualBob]

Cabrera may have already discussed this in the GZ, but I took the easy route and just started here.

Does anyone else see Carlos dogging it?  I have not had a chance to watch too many games this year, but I did see the horrible error the other night.  Then yesterday he contributes to Kepp getting nailed at the plate by providing zero guidance, then stands and watches a pop fly in left rather than running with the hit.  (It fell, and he got to 2B anyway, but there is no excuse for watching a pop-up as if it were over the train tracks.)  Seems to me he was loafing a little later in the game, too, though my memory has blotted out the details.

So what's up with that?

[JimR]

i did not see the game, but the most he can do on a pop fly to LF is go halfway. no runner on the team could get to third on a short pop that drops.

i did see the dropped fly. he was not loafing but did not look the ball into his glove.

[OregonStrosFan]

The staredown from Kepp yesterday was pretty intense, and yes he's been appearing to half-ass it even more than usual.

[Fredia]

but lees half ass isnt that more than most other players whole ass

[Mr. Happy]

but lees half ass isnt that more than most other players whole ass

That's not the point. I've seen almost every game, and I have detected several situations where the thought of dogging it has crossed my mind. I'll continue to think that he's trying, but he's testing my patience.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

That's not the point. I've seen almost every game, and I have detected several situations where the thought of dogging it has crossed my mind. I'll continue to think that he's trying, but he's testing my patience.

I think ('cause with Fredia I'm never sure) she was referring to the physical nature of, and not effort from, one half of Lee's ass.

[Mr. Happy]

I think ('cause with Fredia I'm never sure) she was referring to the physical nature of, and not effort from, one half of Lee's ass.

I thought about that after I hit send. My sarcmeter has been stuck on stupid lately.

[das]

i did not see the game, but the most he can do on a pop fly to LF is go halfway. no runner on the team could get to third on a short pop that drops.

i did see the dropped fly. he was not loafing but did not look the ball into his glove.

The pop VB is talking about was off the bat of Lee.  When he hit it, I screamed at the screen, "run!!!" because he was sitting there in the box looking at it waiting for it ot go foul.  It looked all the world like it was going to go foul but straightened out and fell in for the bloop that it was.  Here is the cringe-worthy video:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7613765&query=%26game_pk%3D264056

Granted, when you look at the result, it's hard to fault the play but when looked from a fundamental baseball standpoint, its bothersome.

[Reuben]

The pop VB is talking about was off the bat of Lee.  When he hit it, I screamed at the screen, "run!!!" because he was sitting there in the box looking at it waiting for it ot go foul.  It looked all the world like it was going to go foul but straightened out and fell in for the bloop that it was.  Here is the cringe-worthy video:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=7613765&query=%26game_pk%3D264056

Granted, when you look at the result, it's hard to fault the play but when looked from a fundamental baseball standpoint, its bothersome.

In the replay they show toward the end of that clip, it seems like Carlos would've been dead at 2nd had the throw not gone home. And that's even with the ball bouncing over the LFer's head and him having to chase it down.

That said, I'm sure its tough on him being in such a profound slump. Perhaps its mainly a focus issue, rather than just not giving a shit. Some guys are good at not taking their bad ABs back in the field with them, others not so much.

[Limey]

I think Lee has always got away with not knowing the fundamentals, like diet and exercise, because of his sweet swing.  This year, including all of ST, his swing hasn't been there.  This highlights the horror story that is the rest of his game. 

He's always been this way.  He's not dogging it, he just doesn't know better.  If he's guilty of anything, it's most likely willful ignorance because you'd have to learn something just by being at the park every day!  Outside of the batter's box, he's almost entirely clueless.

FTR, I'm as angry at his play as anyone here (save chuck and Alkie, but that goes without saying).   

[BUWebguy]

I think Lee has always got away with not knowing the fundamentals, like diet and exercise, because of his sweet swing.  This year, including all of ST, his swing hasn't been there.  This highlights the horror story that is the rest of his game. 

He's always been this way.  He's not dogging it, he just doesn't know better.  If he's guilty of anything, it's most likely willful ignorance because you'd have to learn something just by being at the park every day!  Outside of the batter's box, he's almost entirely clueless.

FTR, I'm as angry at his play as anyone here (save chuck and Alkie, but that goes without saying).   

Hasn't he been credited in the past with being smart on the basepaths? I thought that was the explanation for his surprisingly high steals totals in the past.

[Sleepy]

I have to admit the thought has been growing in my mind, too. In addition to the other instances, when he fell down on the Josh Johnson pickoff when he left 1st early, he completely gave up after slipping and they just walked over to tag him out. He was a dead duck, anyway, but for some reason that stuff really bothers me. Juneberno.

[VirtualBob]

i did not see the game, but the most he can do on a pop fly to LF is go halfway. no runner on the team could get to third on a short pop that drops.

i did see the dropped fly. he was not loafing but did not look the ball into his glove.

He was the *batter*, Jim.

[Bench]

He was ate the *batter*, Jim.

FIFPancakes

[JimR]

He was the *batter*, Jim.

oh. yep, that makes a big difference and should get him benched.

[Limey]

oh. yep, that makes a big difference and should get him benched.

Contrast that with LaRoche who, when presented with a no win situation on the bases yesterday, chose the one that resulted in only one out, preserving the inning and scoring a run, instead of two outs, ending the inning and erasing the run.

Anyone here think that Lee (or Puma) wouldn't have run their not inconsiderable arses into a double play?  Nope, me neither.

[Noe]

Just to add my dos centavos, several things come into play here with Carlos Lee:

1. Is he known around the league as a lazy player?  Not that I know of, so if he's all of a sudden decided to be lazy, it's probably a very new phenomena.
2. Is he human?  Yes, he is.  He's not a robot, so he's prone to make errors both in execution and judgement.

So having said that, there is making an error in judgement that is benign in nature and there is making an error in judgement simply because you just don't care.  If it's the latter, then managers have a way of sensing that and will do something about it.  Guys like Bobby Cox have pulled players right off the field for dogging it and it was precisely because they felt the player had an attitude that needed adjustment.  Same with Lou Pinella this year when he pulled Soriano right off the field for his lazy plays in left one inning in Chi-town.  Until the results are in that Brad Mills feels Carlos Lee is absolutely in need of an attitude adjustment, then I'll join the crowd that Lee is a huge problem for the team.

Now, is Lee taking some of his early season frustration out into the field with him?  Absolutely and because of that a manager will try to get a good player like Lee to re-focus.  Sometimes it's harder to get a player to let things go, so you sit them for a while or juggle the lineup so thinking is taken out of the equation for a while.  Lee's problem hitting, to me, is a product of not having anyone behind him nor in front of him he could trust to do their job.  When you have free swinging Pence in front of you and free swinging Feliz behind you, you're prone to start getting out of your game and trying to do too much.  This may be a case of actually caring too much to try and help the team win early.

In terms of losing focus on the field, on the basepaths and on the help Lee should provide a runner... chalk it up to his own frustration spilling over to the other facets of the game.  Players will forgive a lack of focus sometimes when they know you're struggling.  But they'll also expect you to pull yourself out of it and not make it a habit either.  Good thing Mills is on the job though, he knows when it is time to do something about it and when it's not.

[Bench]

1. Is he known around the league as a lazy player?  Not that I know of, so if he's all of a sudden decided to be lazy, it's probably a very new phenomena.

The general perception of him by fans is that he's lazy.  So take it with a grain of salt.

[Mr. Happy]

The general perception of him by fans is that he's lazy.  So take it with a grain of salt.

I don't think that Lee is generally lazy, although he doesn't always run out ground balls and popups, although some of that may be due to his proximity in the batting order to "run like your hair is on fire on every play" Pence. I was more concerned about the incident involving his failure to tell Keppinger to slide, especially given the intense and quite obvious look that Keppinger gave him after being tagged out. Lee flat out failed to direct the runner coming home, which he should have done.

[matadorph]

I don't think that Lee is generally lazy, although he doesn't always run out ground balls and popups, although some of that may be due to his proximity in the batting order to "run like your hair is on fire on every play" Pence. I was more concerned about the incident involving his failure to tell Keppinger to slide, especially given the intense and quite obvious look that Keppinger gave him after being tagged out. Lee flat out failed to direct the runner coming home, which he should have done.

I share your concern. Hopefully it's the slump and not something to do with clubhouse chemistry (i.e. Tejada's gone), but Caballo's demeanor seems a little different. Keppinger wasn't happy at all about Lee's failure on that play, and in return Lee seemed to not care at all. Granted, I'm just reading body language and could well be FOS because of it, but this isn't the fun-loving Carlos Lee we've seen in recent seasons. For example, when he ripped that triple yesterday and legged it all the way around the bases, Bud Norris had fun with him in the dugout by fanning him with a towel and checking his pulse. That was good shit, but Carlos didn't really partake in the festivities. He almost had a pissed off look on his face. Was he too tired to smile and laugh, or did Bud cross a line with him? Or maybe it's me seeing something that isn't there at all....I hate early season off days.

[Noe]

You guys are seeing waaay too much that isn't there.  Lee was joking with Norris, even had his own hand on his neck to check for a pulse, laughing while pointing to the exact location at third base where he lost all his energy (methinks right around the shortstop area).  Norris then proceeded to fan him and check for a pulse while Lee acted like a serious patient under his care.  As far as the Keppinger incident, there are occasions in any situation/game/series/team where the more intense of the players will clash with the more laid back and easy going (which Lee counts as one).  The general concensus is that if I play hard, you should too... especially if you're the leader on this team.

It was warranted for Keppinger to remind Lee of his responsibilities, but it is not as if Keppinger was having to school a guy who does not care.  In yesterday's game, when Lee scored on a basehit and Pence was coming in to score, Lee turned around and animatedly waved downward to tell Pence to slide hard.  As did Towles.  I don't think that Lee doesn't care, which is where all this talk will eventually lead to if we're going to indict him.  The Astros need Carlos Lee and his 100 rbis in the middle of the lineup every day.  What comes with those 100 rbis is a player who isn't like Hunter Pence and runs with abandon on every play.  He's just not that player.  Do I like it?  No, not necessarily, but do I understand it?  Yes.  Yes I do.

[Mr. Happy]

Noe, you're probably right.

[Taras Bulba]

Noe, you're probably right.

Noe, why does Mr. Happy love you?

[Limey]

Noe, why does Mr. Happy love you?

NTTAWWT.

[Mr. Happy]

Noe, why does Mr. Happy love you?

Love you too TB!

[Noe]

The more I tell folks not to listen to me, the more the opposite happens.  I'm telling you, I am dead wrong about 99% of the time.  Seriously.  The other 1% I thieve from everyone else.

[Gizzmonic]

Well, it does require a certain amount of...prestidigitation...to discern one's true motives and feelings from split-second actions they perform on a baseball diamond.  And yet, here we are, day after day, trying to make sense out of these tiny scraps. 

[matadorph]

You guys are seeing waaay too much that isn't there.  Lee was joking with Norris, even had his own hand on his neck to check for a pulse, laughing while pointing to the exact location at third base where he lost all his energy (methinks right around the shortstop area).  Norris then proceeded to fan him and check for a pulse while Lee acted like a serious patient under his care.  As far as the Keppinger incident, there are occasions in any situation/game/series/team where the more intense of the players will clash with the more laid back and easy going (which Lee counts as one).  The general concensus is that if I play hard, you should too... especially if you're the leader on this team.

It was warranted for Keppinger to remind Lee of his responsibilities, but it is not as if Keppinger was having to school a guy who does not care.  In yesterday's game, when Lee scored on a basehit and Pence was coming in to score, Lee turned around and animatedly waved downward to tell Pence to slide hard.  As did Towles.  I don't think that Lee doesn't care, which is where all this talk will eventually lead to if we're going to indict him.  The Astros need Carlos Lee and his 100 rbis in the middle of the lineup every day.  What comes with those 100 rbis is a player who isn't like Hunter Pence and runs with abandon on every play.  He's just not that player.  Do I like it?  No, not necessarily, but do I understand it?  Yes.  Yes I do.

I don't think Carlos doesn't care and didn't mean to imply as much. I think he's a professional hitter who cares a great deal about both individual and team performance, but it's obvious that he's frustrated by his early slump. Lee made it clear in his body language on the bench Saturday and his post-game comments following the win on Sunday that he was not happy about getting a day off in the middle game of the Pirates series. When asked on Sunday what the previous day off had done for him, Caballo bluntly said "It did nothing for me."

I read his body language in the dugout following that triple differently than you because guys aren't happy when they get benched and it takes a little time for them to get over it. I think he was still a little peeved about Mills' decision and wasn't in the greatest of moods Sunday and that Bud Norris was doing his part to bring out the fun Carlos. Kudos to the kid for doing so, and here's to Carlos going on a tear soon to get himself right.

[Noe]

I don't think Carlos doesn't care and didn't mean to imply as much. I think he's a professional hitter who cares a great deal about both individual and team performance, but it's obvious that he's frustrated by his early slump. Lee made it clear in his body language on the bench Saturday and his post-game comments following the win on Sunday that he was not happy about getting a day off in the middle game of the Pirates series. When asked on Sunday what the previous day off had done for him, Caballo bluntly said "It did nothing for me."

I read his body language in the dugout following that triple differently than you because guys aren't happy when they get benched and it takes a little time for them to get over it. I think he was still a little peeved about Mills' decision and wasn't in the greatest of moods Sunday and that Bud Norris was doing his part to bring out the fun Carlos. Kudos to the kid for doing so, and here's to Carlos going on a tear soon to get himself right.

The irony about what you're saying is that it's not up to Carlos, it's up to Mills to manage the ballclub.  If Carlos doesn't like Mills managing, then he's worse than a good teammate, he's selfish and should be gone.  Anyone who cares only about himself should be shipped out now!  And no teammate would even come close to him for that matter.  Want an example?  Tim Redding.

So having said that, do you *really* think what you're seeing is any indication of Carlos Lee being that sort of player?  If so, I would not only disagree with you, but vehemently disagree with you.  Mills took Myers out on Sunday and Myers didn't like it.  At. All.  Is Myers a bad teammate?  No, he just disagrees with Mills, to which Mills says "Good, I don't want guys around here that don't care" (paraphrased).  Carlos cares.  He cares enough to hate to sit because he believes he can help best by being on the field.  Go ask Mills if he thinks that is a bad thing.  He'll tell you the same thing he said about Myers.  But that is what a manager is for and so far, Mills is doing the job.  He was known for this under Terry Francona.  If a hammer was needed, Mills did the job of going to the players and letting them know what the management team was thinking and requiring of them.  These guys are professional and will appreciate being told and kept abreast of what a manager expects.  Not telling them is worse.

So be very careful what you're implying because you just may be saying that Carlos Lee is a malcontent and Mills is blind to that (because he put him back into the field).  If we follow this to a logical conclusion, you'll have another Cooper non-communication vs. hothead/selfish Chacon and then a choking incident.  That's what these sort of indictments of Lee, if true, will ultimately lead to. 

[Randy Watson]

Carlos Lee is lazy.  It's obvious from his conditioning and his lack of hustle.  He can swing the bat though.

[matadorph]

The irony about what you're saying is that it's not up to Carlos, it's up to Mills to manage the ballclub.  If Carlos doesn't like Mills managing, then he's worse than a good teammate, he's selfish and should be gone.  Anyone who cares only about himself should be shipped out now!  And no teammate would even come close to him for that matter.  Want an example?  Tim Redding.

So having said that, do you *really* think what you're seeing is any indication of Carlos Lee being that sort of player?  If so, I would not only disagree with you, but vehemently disagree with you.  Mills took Myers out on Sunday and Myers didn't like it.  At. All.  Is Myers a bad teammate?  No, he just disagrees with Mills, to which Mills says "Good, I don't want guys around here that don't care" (paraphrased).  Carlos cares.  He cares enough to hate to sit because he believes he can help best by being on the field.  Go ask Mills if he thinks that is a bad thing.  He'll tell you the same thing he said about Myers.  But that is what a manager is for and so far, Mills is doing the job.  He was known for this under Terry Francona.  If a hammer was needed, Mills did the job of going to the players and letting them know what the management team was thinking and requiring of them.  These guys are professional and will appreciate being told and kept abreast of what a manager expects.  Not telling them is worse.

So be very careful what you're implying because you just may be saying that Carlos Lee is a malcontent and Mills is blind to that (because he put him back into the field).  If we follow this to a logical conclusion, you'll have another Cooper non-communication vs. hothead/selfish Chacon and then a choking incident.  That's what these sort of indictments of Lee, if true, will ultimately lead to.  

Where oh where did I say anything about Carlos Lee being a bad teammate or that he doesn't care? Calmate, vato. I am not saying that AT ALL. All I said was that, from appearances over the weekend, he's been in a bad mood, which is understandable under the circumstances. There's nothing particularly egregious about this, we all have our days. When Carlos is hitting and happy, his demeanor in the dugout is looser and more jovial. I'd get a bit irritable too if I were doing my best to break out of a funk only for the hometown fans to continually deride me as a lazy fatass.

[Limey]

Well, it does require a certain amount of...prestidigitation...

NTTAWWT

[Lurch]

Lee will bat 3rd again tonight

[Bench]

Lee will bat 3rd again tonight

Did he bat third on Sunday as well?  (I've been out of town)

[Lurch]

Did he bat third on Sunday as well?  (I've been out of town)

He did

[Limey]

Lee will bat 3rd again tonight

When you put it like that...[Over-reaction] how the fuck do we have only 1 lefty, and it's Byrdak!!!!! [Over-reaction]