Author Topic: Ortiz on the brink?  (Read 12060 times)

pravata

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Ortiz on the brink?
« on: May 07, 2009, 09:58:47 pm »
Cooper either thinks he's in the playoffs or he has no confidence in Ortiz as a starter.  Put Paulino back?  Backe has his 3rd rehab tomorrow and a grand jury hearing for the wedding brawl next week,
Link They said on the broadcast Brocail has a tear in his hamstring, that sounds serious.  Valverde is going to rehab in a chair.  Bud Norris, how the hell is he doing?

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 10:00:20 pm »
Ortiz can help this team. Fire Cooper.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 10:12:10 pm »
Bull Pen Options At RR:
Brendan Donnelly is an option for bullpen help.  No runs in 5 IP, 1 hit, 2 walks, 6 strike outs
Jeff Fulchino could yo yo back up there again for bullpen help
Chad Paronto has 7 saves for the express and has a 1.00
Jeremy Johnson has scattered a bunch of hits but his ERA doesn't show it (1.62)
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pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 10:15:01 pm »
Bull Pen Options At RR:
Brendan Donnelly is an option for bullpen help.  No runs in 5 IP, 1 hit, 2 walks, 6 strike outs
Jeff Fulchino could yo yo back up there again for bullpen help
Chad Paronto has 7 saves for the express and has a 1.00
Jeremy Johnson has scattered a bunch of hits but his ERA doesn't show it (1.62)

Thanks.  I'm just thinking, this is Valverde's walk year, (hell of a time to start leaking oil) maybe they want to test out a new closer, in a pressure free environment, if you see what I mean.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 10:15:09 pm »
Bud Norris, how the hell is he doing?

Don't.  Just don't.  Keep him as far away from Cooper as possible.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 10:16:34 pm »
Don't.  Just don't.  Keep him as far away from Cooper as possible.

Sad but true.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 10:21:58 pm »
DFA this guy he has no business on the mound, Paulino replace him.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 10:35:13 pm »
DFA this guy he has no business on the mound, Paulino replace him.

Speaking of which, would you mind coming in and closing the door...

I think you might benefit from a little time in the minors. Unfortunately, at your current level of production, I'm afraid AAA might not be the place for you. It's probably for the best that you take a few cuts at Low A ball.

The cab will take you to the bus station. This is really the best thing for you. Much more time up here and you'll be short an organ.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:40:27 pm by WakePhil »

pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 10:44:00 pm »
Cooper not of the "take one for the team" school.  "When do you do that?" Cooper says.  Post game talk says he doesnt think the pen is "abused", no one is throwing consecutive days.  Howe (see Noe's example) thinks Cooper made the right call, Sampson kept them in the game, Marmol was the difference. (This is no knock on Noe's example, just a recitation of what happened, with a fortunate combination of Howe and Cooper's thinking about this strategy.

94CougarGrad

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 10:46:47 pm »
Speaking of which, would you mind coming in and closing the door...

I think you might benefit from a little time in the minors. Unfortunately, at your current level of production, I'm afraid AAA might not be the place for you. It's probably for the best that you take a few cuts at Low A ball.

The cab will take you to the bus station. This is really the best thing for you. Much more time up here and you'll be short an organ.


*bzzt*

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pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 10:48:59 pm »
"What was I thinking? I'm thinking why are they coming to get me.  ...That's how I've pitched my whole career... no one should be surprised that the walks are there." Russ Ortiz.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 11:18:17 pm »

*bzzt*

Excuse me, Mr. WakePhil, but the donor van is here to pick up the kidneys we "donated."

What is the going rate for a spleen these days?

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 11:37:32 pm »
"What was I thinking? I'm thinking why are they coming to get me.  ...That's how I've pitched my whole career... no one should be surprised that the walks are there." Russ Ortiz.

i just looked at the boxscore and play by play for tonight's game.  what a disaster.  coop is destroying this team.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 11:50:45 pm »
coop is destroying this team.

Maybe. Probably. But what would a manager with flawless decision making do to provide this team with more wins? Berkman is not hitting and is showing no signs of hitting. The starting pitching other than Wandy has been poor to terrible. The pen is a MASH unit.

Would keeping Bourn at the top of the line-up truly address the team's problems? Would leaving Wandy and Ortiz in longer truly address the team's problems? Would a sane manager be enough to give the team three more wins to get them to .500? Five more to place them comfortably in contention in the Central? I don't know. I don't think so.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 11:53:45 pm »
Maybe. Probably. But what would a manager with flawless decision making do to provide this team with more wins? Berkman is not hitting and is showing no signs of hitting. The starting pitching other than Wandy has been poor to terrible. The pen is a MASH unit.

Would keeping Bourn at the top of the line-up truly address the team's problems? Would leaving Wandy and Ortiz in longer truly address the team's problems? Would a sane manager be enough to give the team three more wins to get them to .500? Five more to place them comfortably in contention in the Central? I don't know. I don't think so.

IMHO, Cooper is insane.  He does not put the players in position to win.  Yeah, he can't make Berkman swing and hit strikes, but tonight was obvious that he doesn't know what he is doing.  Again, IMHO.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2009, 12:07:26 am »
Ortiz can help this team. Fire Cooper.

And if you're going to do it, do it now while the press is too preoccupied with Manny-B-Manny to devote more than a modicum of resources in lambasting the Astros about it...
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Noe

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2009, 12:23:09 am »
"What was I thinking? I'm thinking why are they coming to get me.  ...That's how I've pitched my whole career... no one should be surprised that the walks are there." Russ Ortiz.

Eggsactly!  I decided not to watch any more tonight because I just couldn't believe Cooper at that moment.  The man is insane.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 12:26:36 am »
Again, IMHO.

I saw it the first time. Nice work, though.
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pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2009, 12:27:28 am »
Eggsactly!  I decided not to watch any more tonight because I just couldn't believe Cooper at that moment.  The man is insane.

It's starting to wear on the pitchers

Press conference

"Russ was a guy that was great in Spring Training, but he's had three starts and one of his relief appearances where he's had command issues," Cooper said. "He needs to be in the zone and throw strikes and be aggressive with his stuff, because his stuff's good enough. He just has to trust his stuff. I have yet to see it."

“I feel like I've always had to battle my whole career," Ortiz said. "My mindset is never give in, never give in. I think all the six hits were singles, I believe. I don't think anybody should be surprised that the walks are there. I don't like them, but my whole career, I've battled. It's never been easy for me."
link

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 06:58:49 am »
Would a sane manager be enough to give the team three more wins to get them to .500? Five more to place them comfortably in contention in the Central? I don't know. I don't think so.

They're only three games under .500? It seems like 30.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 08:45:26 am »
They're only three games under .500? It seems like 30.


This team has numerous problems with managing being one of them. I keep thinking about McLane saying during ST that he thinks this may be one of his better teams. I wonder who sold him on that idea or if he came to that decision himself. Regardless, he was selling it. That Cooper extension looks very strange right now.

pots

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 08:55:33 am »

 That Cooper extension looks very strange right now.

Not if the move was done for PC reasons.  If you can him earlier, then they can say you never really gave him a chance.  No job security, constanatly worrying if he'd have a job the next day, yadda yadda.

Now you can say, look we gave him our full confidence (with gauranteed money) and we didn't like the results.  He can leave with a nice fat paycheck.

Coop don't go away mad, Coop just go away.

juliogotay

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 08:59:18 am »
Not if the move was done for PC reasons.  If you can him earlier, then they can say you never really gave him a chance.  No job security, constanatly worrying if he'd have a job the next day, yadda yadda.

Now you can say, look we gave him our full confidence (with gauranteed money) and we didn't like the results.  He can leave with a nice fat paycheck.

Coop don't go away mad, Coop just go away.



You could be right but I have a hard time believing McLane is wound that way.

Tralfaz

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 09:00:38 am »
Not if the move was done for PC reasons.  If you can him earlier, then they can say you never really gave him a chance.  No job security, constanatly worrying if he'd have a job the next day, yadda yadda.

Now you can say, look we gave him our full confidence (with gauranteed money) and we didn't like the results.  He can leave with a nice fat paycheck.

Coop don't go away mad, Coop just go away.

The day the extension was announced, I came to the same conclusion.  The Astros organization treat thier own right, to a fault.
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roadrunner

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 09:03:06 am »
I would like to know what Ed Wade's leash is like, too.  It is still probably to early to evaluate Wade's performance, but Purpura was fired after only - what, 2 years?  

pots

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 09:04:03 am »


You could be right but I have a hard time believing McLane is wound that way.

I once broke up with a girl, who later that night got a DWI and needed $60 to get her car out of the pound.  Giving her that money made it a whole lot easier to end the relationship.  Best 60 bucks I ever spent.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 09:05:58 am »
And if you're going to do it, do it now while the press is too preoccupied with Manny-B-Manny to devote more than a modicum of resources in lambasting the Astros about it...

Just like the Diamondbacks did, I swear I saw something about it on an ESPN crawl during yesterdays BanRam circus.
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pots

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 09:07:14 am »
I would like to know what Ed Wade's leash is like, too.  It is still probably to early to evaluate Wade's performance, but Purpura was fired after only - what, 2 years?  

You need to check the Astros record prior to Ed Wade, remembering the state of the farm, etc.  Then think to Purpura and the Astros record prior to him coming on board, state of the farm, etc.  And then re-evaluate your thought.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 09:10:06 am »
I don't have any inside information on this, but just my own speculation here: I believe that the Astros are backing Cooper because of other issues and not just being PC.  Willie Randolph was handed a stacked New York Mets team, with the owner spending well over 100 million on in their prime players.  And Randolph, who was always touted as Joe Torre's heir apparent as the manager of the Yankees, just could not lead the team.  He got to the NLCS once and got out managed by Tony LaRussa.  LaRussa took an inferior Cardinals team and beat the highly touted Mets, the bow on that package being the swing and a miss K of Beltran as the final out.

So in Cooper's case, no one will be able to point to a team of prime time players or team of young talent or even a balance of those types of players.  In fact, the pundits have said that the Astros are seriously inferior and should have lost many games last year (and this).  Cooper though was the manager at the helm of a team of such inferior talent that almost made the playoffs.  Yes, if Cooper is the manager when the team plays so well, he must be given credit.  This has now stuck the Astros with the need to allow Cooper to either finish out this season (and next) or be the object of fan ire so badly he can't manage here any more before they can release him.  Cooper won't get the fans to boo him because many a fan thinks the problem with the Astros is Drayton McLane, not Cooper.  It is about the owner's lack of interest in the club that he does not spend enough money (like the Mets).  People may boo McLane, at which point I'm sure his head will explode because how is he going to fire himself?

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 09:14:06 am »
I don't have any inside information on this, but just my own speculation here: I believe that the Astros are backing Cooper because of other issues and not just being PC.  Willie Randolph was handed a stacked New York Mets team, with the owner spending well over 100 million on in their prime players.  And Randolph, who was always touted as Joe Torre's heir apparent as the manager of the Yankees, just could not lead the team.  He got to the NLCS once and got out managed by Tony LaRussa.  LaRussa took an inferior Cardinals team and beat the highly touted Mets, the bow on that package being the swing and a miss K of Beltran as the final out.

So in Cooper's case, no one will be able to point to a team of prime time players or team of young talent or even a balance of those types of players.  In fact, the pundits have said that the Astros are seriously inferior and should have lost many games last year (and this).  Cooper though was the manager at the helm of a team of such inferior talent that almost made the playoffs.  Yes, if Cooper is the manager when the team plays so well, he must be given credit.  This has now stuck the Astros with the need to allow Cooper to either finish out this season (and next) or be the object of fan ire so badly he can't manage here any more before they can release him.  Cooper won't get the fans to boo him because many a fan thinks the problem with the Astros is Drayton McLane, not Cooper.  It is about the owner's lack of interest in the club that he does not spend enough money (like the Mets).  People may boo McLane, at which point I'm sure his head will explode because how is he going to fire himself?

You still have a few in the media who believe that Cooper wasn't given enough to work with, and so it's not fair to judge him.  It's pretty obvious that most don't watch the games, but outside of Nuno and Granato, I haven't heard anyone publicly questioning Cooper and his fitness to be manager of a major league team.

That'll have to change before Cooper goes, because the idiot manager listens to them too.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2009, 09:17:12 am »
You need to check the Astros record prior to Ed Wade, remembering the state of the farm, etc.  Then think to Purpura and the Astros record prior to him coming on board, state of the farm, etc.  And then re-evaluate your thought.


I'm not saying he deserves to get canned this year or even next.  I just wonder how quick Drayton's trigger will be if the performance continues this year and there are no signs of improvement on the farm.  I realize Purp had more to work with prior to being handed the job.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2009, 09:17:39 am »
Cooper not of the "take one for the team" school.  "When do you do that?" Cooper says.  Post game talk says he doesnt think the pen is "abused", no one is throwing consecutive days.  Howe (see Noe's example) thinks Cooper made the right call, Sampson kept them in the game, Marmol was the difference. (This is no knock on Noe's example, just a recitation of what happened, with a fortunate combination of Howe and Cooper's thinking about this strategy.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090507&content_id=4610164&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Cooper: "It's not like the bullpen's all worn out."

Was it Wednesday he was wondering if he needed 14 pitchers?

He's now channeling Justice.  Pinwheel II
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2009, 09:18:48 am »
Maybe not openly calling for his job, but both JD and Footer have been rather critical of some of his decisions lately.  I think JD was just as surprised as anyone to see bullpen activity and then Ortiz get yanked last night, and I think that Footer was right on with her assessment of pulling Wandy the other day.  I think this can only build if he keeps making these poor decisions.

I wouldn't be surprised if over breakfast this morning, Cooper called to get someone warming up in the bullpen.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2009, 09:20:58 am »
its like when you watch horror moveies and see the same gory stuff over and over and you beocme desyntizied . well that is what you are feeling with the astros
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2009, 09:21:56 am »
its like when you watch horror moveies and see the same gory stuff over and over and you beocme desyntizied . well that is what you are feeling with the astros

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2009, 09:23:40 am »
You still have a few in the media who believe that Cooper wasn't given enough to work with, and so it's not fair to judge him.  It's pretty obvious that most don't watch the games, but outside of Nuno and Granato, I haven't heard anyone publicly questioning Cooper and his fitness to be manager of a major league team.

That'll have to change before Cooper goes, because the idiot manager listens to them too.

Eggszactly.  I believe the Astros think it would be a media backlash to fire Coop when the fans and media alike will say he was a scapegoat (since he has nothing to work with).  Also, right now, the Astros are leaking oil (hurt ballplayers) so canning him now would be a huge mistake even if it makes sense from a baseball mindset.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2009, 09:24:32 am »
Maybe not openly calling for his job, but both JD and Footer have been rather critical of some of his decisions lately.  I think JD was just as surprised as anyone to see bullpen activity and then Ortiz get yanked last night, and I think that Footer was right on with her assessment of pulling Wandy the other day.  I think this can only build if he keeps making these poor decisions.

I wouldn't be surprised if over breakfast this morning, Cooper called to get someone warming up in the bullpen.

Right or wrong (wrong, mostly) Footer's criticisms don't have much impact with the locals who follow baseball on the periphery...you know they folks who cry homerun and actually boo people.

There would be fewer of those people if they did read her stuff, but alas...

Noe

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2009, 09:29:55 am »
Maybe not openly calling for his job, but both JD and Footer have been rather critical of some of his decisions lately.  I think JD was just as surprised as anyone to see bullpen activity and then Ortiz get yanked last night, and I think that Footer was right on with her assessment of pulling Wandy the other day.  I think this can only build if he keeps making these poor decisions.

I wouldn't be surprised if over breakfast this morning, Cooper called to get someone warming up in the bullpen.

I was proud of JD last night saying that at some time, the managers going to have to trust a starter can give him more innings.  Jimmy D was speaking powerful words, good medicine.  In listening to Do-Ray call the Washington game when their was a parade of bullpen guys being trotted out by Cooper, one of them openly said that JimmyD was out in the halls speaking to Rob Dibble about this very subject.  No word on what exactly he was saying, but I bet the former starter and reliever were speaking about how a team felt when starters weren't giving enough innings and the perception was that the bullpen was having to work so many innings to bail the team out.

I imagine that is Cooper's perception and it's tainted a bit because it's one thing when, yes, the starter isn't giving you enough innings, it's another when you pull stuff like last night and purposely look to pull a starter for whatever reason that irks you.  At some point, you're going to have to trust your starter to give you more innings, even if it means that today you lose a game.  Better to lose a game than to lose a weeks worth of series because your bullpen is in disarray.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2009, 09:42:40 am »
desyntizied

That's a hell of a word.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2009, 09:52:13 am »
I don't have any inside information on this, but just my own speculation here: I believe that the Astros are backing Cooper because of other issues and not just being PC.  Willie Randolph was handed a stacked New York Mets team, with the owner spending well over 100 million on in their prime players.  And Randolph, who was always touted as Joe Torre's heir apparent as the manager of the Yankees, just could not lead the team.  He got to the NLCS once and got out managed by Tony LaRussa.  LaRussa took an inferior Cardinals team and beat the highly touted Mets, the bow on that package being the swing and a miss K of Beltran as the final out.

Minor nit, but Beltran watched strike three.  There was no swing.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2009, 09:53:14 am »
That's a hell of a word.

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pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2009, 10:01:27 am »
That's a hell of a word.

Requires equal parts holy water and bleach.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2009, 10:05:01 am »
Minor nit, but Beltran watched strike three.  There was no swing.

Thanks, I was going on faulty memory and I seem to remember a nasty Wainwright curveball that Beltran swung at... may of been strike two though.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2009, 10:13:49 am »
What is the going rate for a spleen these days?

Ask him. He posts here.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2009, 10:36:59 am »
They're only three games under .500? It seems like 30.

Six, actually, but who's counting?
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Taras Bulba

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2009, 10:37:10 am »
I don't have any inside information on this, but just my own speculation here: I believe that the Astros are backing Cooper because of other issues and not just being PC.  Willie Randolph was handed a stacked New York Mets team, with the owner spending well over 100 million on in their prime players.  And Randolph, who was always touted as Joe Torre's heir apparent as the manager of the Yankees, just could not lead the team.  He got to the NLCS once and got out managed by Tony LaRussa.  LaRussa took an inferior Cardinals team and beat the highly touted Mets, the bow on that package being the swing and a miss K of Beltran as the final out.

So in Cooper's case, no one will be able to point to a team of prime time players or team of young talent or even a balance of those types of players.  In fact, the pundits have said that the Astros are seriously inferior and should have lost many games last year (and this).  Cooper though was the manager at the helm of a team of such inferior talent that almost made the playoffs.  Yes, if Cooper is the manager when the team plays so well, he must be given credit.  This has now stuck the Astros with the need to allow Cooper to either finish out this season (and next) or be the object of fan ire so badly he can't manage here any more before they can release him.  Cooper won't get the fans to boo him because many a fan thinks the problem with the Astros is Drayton McLane, not Cooper.  It is about the owner's lack of interest in the club that he does not spend enough money (like the Mets).  People may boo McLane, at which point I'm sure his head will explode because how is he going to fire himself?

I'd like to give Cooper slack and have tried to think of him in the context of Jimy Williams (unpopular, under siege by fans and media, repeatedly questioned on decisions).  Weighing the evidence, I've had a difficult time since last season finding redeeming qualities with Cooper, though with Williams I thought much of the criticism of him was grossly unfair.  Trying to be fair with Cooper, too but I'm puzzled by what I see and what I hear him say.  This is the most I would ever like to say in terms of questioning a professional baseball man and it saddens me to see what things have come to with Cooper, a man who has been in the game for a long time.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 10:37:51 am by Noe in Austin »
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2009, 10:37:49 am »
Six, actually, but who's counting?

Unfortunately, they are not in a YMCA league with no winners and losers.  Although even then, I don't think the players would be learning anything.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2009, 10:42:23 am »
Unfortunately, they are not in a YMCA league with no winners and losers.  Although even then, I don't think the players would be learning anything.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2009, 10:53:24 am »
I'd like to give Cooper slack and have tried to think of him in the context of Jimy Williams (unpopular, under siege by fans and media, repeatedly questioned on decisions).  Weighing the evidence, I've had a difficult time since last season finding redeeming qualities with Cooper, though with Williams I thought much of the criticism of him was grossly unfair.  Trying to be fair with Cooper, too but I'm puzzled by what I see and what I hear him say.  This is the most I would ever like to say in terms of questioning a professional baseball man and it saddens me to see what things have come to with Cooper, a man who has been in the game for a long time.

I think the difference between Jimy and Coop is also a reflection of media.  Cooper is open, to a fault, with the media, wears his emotions on his sleeve and is all around accessible.  Jimy, however, was cynical and aloof with the media (managers decision, etc...).  The media's criticisms of Jimy intensified when he wouldn't give them answers or explanations.  None of it actully had to do with the baseball decisions Jimy made.  The other side of the coin is that a great deal of the criticisms about Coop is not what he didn't say, but what he actually said, and even worse, what he actually does.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2009, 10:55:46 am »
Unfortunately, they are not in a YMCA league with no winners and losers.

Oh, there are losers...
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2009, 11:14:53 am »
I think the difference between Jimy and Coop is also a reflection of media.  Cooper is open, to a fault, with the media, wears his emotions on his sleeve and is all around accessible.  Jimy, however, was cynical and aloof with the media (managers decision, etc...).  The media's criticisms of Jimy intensified when he wouldn't give them answers or explanations.  None of it actully had to do with the baseball decisions Jimy made.  The other side of the coin is that a great deal of the criticisms about Coop is not what he didn't say, but what he actually said, and even worse, what he actually does.

The Jimah equation is actually a good thing to compare to Cooper's situation in terms of being let go.  Jimah, while not a media darling, lost the fans (and not the clubhouse) because it was perceived by the unwashed masses that Houston was a contender.  Having Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Jeff Bagwell, Jeff Kent, Lance Berkman, Craig Biggio all on one team meant he had a great team.  So the great unwashed decided that any team made up of those players has absolutely no business hovering on or below .500, instead the very idea was repulsive.  I don't think the media propagated that idea in the mind of the fans, fans did that to themselves.  Jimah's lack of openess meant there was no way it could be communicated to fans that he was likeable, a good manager and well respected by the team.  Far from it and much of that is Jimah's fault for his lack of skills with the media.

So fans boo'ed... loudly, at what was a crowning achievement by Drayton McLane... getting an All-Star game to his new stadium.  That was a convergence of all things bad for Jimah.  Media wasn't going to protect a man who gave them nothing to use to protect him.  Fans don't know much above wins/loses and Jimah was not winning with what was considered a great team.  Jimah got fired.

Cooper has no such expectations from fans or the media.  In fact, the media by and large like Coop because he'll provide good copy when he has the want to throw a player under a bus (his own emotional outburst are now getting to be well known so as a media person, you don't want to blink because he just may provide great copy!).  The Astros themselves know they can't let Cooper go if the position of most who observe is that Cooper isn't managing a great team by any stretch of the imagination.  If they did a play out of the whole firing thing, they probably did a few mock ESPN reports and roundtables (probably a few Astros brass throwing out a pundit's view... "Pretend I'm Steve Phillips, this is what I would say... blah, blah, blah").

It probably wasn't too pretty to consider what backlash they would receive.  Eventually though, the media will finally get what some others are saying in terms of the Emperor's new clothes.  When is anyone's guess though.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:20:44 am by Noe in Austin »

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2009, 11:32:09 am »
Requires equal parts holy water and bleach.

I thought holy water was already, by definition, santizied. Of course I was born Protestyntizied, so what the hell do I know?
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2009, 11:38:58 am »
I thought holy water was already, by definition, santizied. Of course I was born Protestyntizied, so what the hell do I know?

God created bacteria, too.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2009, 04:20:54 pm »
Right or wrong (wrong, mostly) Footer's criticisms don't have much impact with the locals who follow baseball on the periphery...you know they folks who cry homerun and actually boo people.

There would be fewer of those people if they did read her stuff, but alas...

McTaggart joins in after admitting he's covering the Rockets and following the Astros through the box scores,

(blog) "..at some point you have to give a starter the ball and tell him he's got 130 pitches and keep him in there as long as he's not embarrassing himself. Relying on the bullpen to throw four innings a night will destroy the relief staff, and the Astros are well on their way."

Maybe he talks to Footer.

pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2009, 04:21:19 pm »
God created bacteria, too.

over and over and over and over...

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2009, 04:36:41 pm »

Maybe he talks to Footer.

I believe she's mentioned that they are good buddies.
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Re: Ortiz over the brink
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2009, 01:12:15 am »
Paulino to replace Ortiz in rotation
Quote
"I hate it," Ortiz said. "I'm not happy. I told him all this. I understand his point, but four starts, come on. We're 3-1 in those starts. I thought it was all about winning games. It is for me. My record's not 3-1, the team's is. That's all I care about -- the team record."

..."Was he happy?" Cooper said of his conversation with Ortiz. "No. Was he mad? No. He was somewhere in between. He understood. He didn't think it was totally justified, but he was entitled to his opinion. I made my case, he made his, and I made my decision. My decision."

Wouldn't Wade be part of a decision like this? Also, could the fact that Ortiz was bumped back and forth between extra bullpen guy and starter as his turn was skipped 2 or 3 times have something to do with him not pitching as effectively or as deep into games as Coop would like?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 01:16:27 am by Reuben »
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2009, 07:27:34 am »
Paulino should be in the rotation, but Ortiz is right. Wade signs players, and Cooper trashes them.
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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2009, 09:56:39 am »
Oswalt
Rodriguez
Hampton
Paulino
Ortiz

Any other rotation is Cooper outsmarting himself.

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2009, 10:24:58 am »
Oswalt
Rodriguez
Hampton
Paulino
Ortiz

Any other rotation is Cooper outsmarting himself.


Why Ortiz over Moehler? Moehler has two quality starts in a row. Ortiz? Not so much.

pravata

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2009, 11:03:28 am »
In her, who made the team, article at the end of spring training, Footer noted

Ortiz's contract status also helped him make this club. He signed a Minor League deal that included an "out" clause that would allow him to become a free agent if he did not make the Opening Day roster.
Link

Would the Astros have carried Ortiz as a middle reliever out of spring training?

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2009, 11:59:48 pm »
I think Cooper is being slightly disengenous with his remarks about Ortiz and his spring.  I was shocked when Coop made Ortiz the long man/5th starter and thus had him wait over two weeks before he got his first start.  If Cooper is now asking where is the Ortiz he saw in spring, well then he needs to look at his decision to make him a long reliever for two weeks and take him out of the routine a starter needs.

This is getting frustrating trying to understand exactly what Cooper means because what he says is incredible most of the time.  Does he really believe his own bs?

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2009, 09:27:07 am »
I think Cooper is being slightly disengenous with his remarks about Ortiz and his spring.  I was shocked when Coop made Ortiz the long man/5th starter and thus had him wait over two weeks before he got his first start.  If Cooper is now asking where is the Ortiz he saw in spring, well then he needs to look at his decision to make him a long reliever for two weeks and take him out of the routine a starter needs.

This is getting frustrating trying to understand exactly what Cooper means because what he says is incredible most of the time.  Does he really believe his own bs?

Jim called it a few months ago--  he's making it up as he goes along

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Re: Ortiz on the brink?
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2009, 12:14:20 pm »
Jim called it a few months ago--  he's making it up as he goes along

Eggszactly.
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