Author Topic: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week  (Read 17618 times)

Russe

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« on: April 16, 2009, 01:39:10 pm »
According to the Cincinatti Enquirer...http://tinyurl.com/d9nbl8

Aside from the Sutton speculation, has anyone heard anything on who it might be?

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2009, 01:45:43 pm »
Hoping it is Iorg
Always ready to go to a game.

Russe

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2009, 01:52:53 pm »
I could definitely live with that.

Taras Bulba

  • Contributor
  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3988
    • View Profile
    • Wing Attack Plan R
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2009, 02:01:45 pm »
I have ten yankee dollars that says it's Sutton.
Purity of Essence

domedogs

  • Disappointing Rookie
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2009, 02:10:07 pm »
My money is on Iorg.  I mentioned this on the Bus Ride.  On restricted list for no reason?  I think not.

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2009, 02:17:01 pm »
My money is on Iorg.  I mentioned this on the Bus Ride.  On restricted list for no reason?  I think not.

Iorg for a useful major-leaguer? I hope Cincy is that addled, but I doubt it.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

OregonStrosFan

  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12328
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2009, 03:49:39 pm »
Per McTaggart on the Chron's live game blog:

3:39 Brian McTaggart:  Update: Valverde had a sore back. Sutton was indeed sent to Cincinnati to complete Keppinger deal. 
3:43 Brian McTaggart:  Valverde day-to-day. 
3:47 Brian McTaggart:  Also, there was talk during game of Keppinger leaving for Smith. Keppinger also has a sore back. 


LINK
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 04:02:49 pm »
Let's see if with Sutton gone, that makes room for Iorg to be activated.  They had too many middle infielders at RR anyway.  I think Sutton for Kepp is a good deal for the Astros.  You will see much more of Maysonet & Manzella. 
Always ready to go to a game.

MRaup

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11432
  • The goddamn Germans ain't got nothin to do with it
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 04:03:23 pm »
Per McTaggart on the Chron's live game blog:

3:39 Brian McTaggart:  Update: Valverde had a sore back. Sutton was indeed sent to Cincinnati to complete Keppinger deal. 
3:43 Brian McTaggart:  Valverde day-to-day. 
3:47 Brian McTaggart:  Also, there was talk during game of Keppinger leaving for Smith. Keppinger also has a sore back. 


LINK

Can't blame Keppinger's sore back on anything but him carrying the bulk of the Astros hits so far this year.
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer." - Norm.

"Your words yield destruction, sorrow and are meant just to hate and hurt..." - Das

OregonStrosFan

  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12328
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 04:06:23 pm »
Can't blame Keppinger's sore back on anything but him carrying the bulk of the Astros hits so far this year.

Would you expect anything less from your 8-hole hitter?
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 04:08:54 pm »
From Dick Justice (via Tweeter)...

"So Drew Sutton IS the player to be named later in the Jeff Keppinger trade. Nice going, Eddie. Go trade a couple more prospects."

It is fascinating that he gets paid for thoughts like that.

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 04:10:34 pm »
Per McTaggart on the Chron's live game blog:

3:39 Brian McTaggart:  Update: Valverde had a sore back. Sutton was indeed sent to Cincinnati to complete Keppinger deal. 
3:43 Brian McTaggart:  Valverde day-to-day. 
3:47 Brian McTaggart:  Also, there was talk during game of Keppinger leaving for Smith. Keppinger also has a sore back. 


LINK

It'll be warm when they get back.  JtheJO called Carlos Lee and Lee said, (about the hitting)

"We're used to playing in the heat in spring training and all of a sudden we go to play in the cold and now it's different," he said. "With the cold temperature it took us a while to get adjusted. As you know we play in the warmth in Houston after playing in the heat of Florida and then it took us a bit of a while to get settled in while playing in the cold."
Ortiz's blog, scroll up or down at your own risk

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 04:11:16 pm »
Sutton is no big deal, imo, but i have only seen a few of his games.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 04:11:59 pm »
From Dick Justice (via Tweeter)...

"So Drew Sutton IS the player to be named later in the Jeff Keppinger trade. Nice going, Eddie. Go trade a couple more prospects."

It is fascinating that he gets paid for thoughts like that.

What's more fascinating is that he believes that Wade gives a shit about what he thinks!
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 04:13:03 pm »
From Dick Justice (via Tweeter)...

"So Drew Sutton IS the player to be named later in the Jeff Keppinger trade. Nice going, Eddie. Go trade a couple more prospects."

It is fascinating that he gets paid for thoughts like that.

Yeah Dickie, spectacular, but where the hell is the taco truck?!

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2009, 04:14:26 pm »
Sutton is no big deal, imo, but i have only seen a few of his games.

Seems to me that he might develop into Keppinger as a hitter, but probably not more. And I don't think Sutton is as versatile in the field. I don't think this is worth getting all exercised about.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

OregonStrosFan

  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12328
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2009, 04:18:46 pm »
What's more fascinating is that he believes that Wade gives a shit about what he thinks!

Evidently he got his feelings hurt about some things Wade said in response to a question about being second guessed by the media at a speech Tuesday at West Virginia University.  LINK (no need to read, as he does not really go into Wades comment, except as to say Wade has a low opinion about the media...).
In the end, my dissolution with the game of baseball will not be a result of any loss of love for the game, rather from the realization that I can no longer bear the anger its supposed stewards cause to be built up in my soul. -Lee (01/08/2013)

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2009, 04:21:51 pm »
Evidently he got his feelings hurt about some things Wade said in response to a question about being second guessed by the media at a speech Tuesday at West Virginia University.  LINK (no need to read, as he does not really go into Wades comment, except as to say Wade has a low opinion about the media...).

Of course Wade has a low opinion of the mediots. They don't know what they're talking about, yet persist in running the yackwagon.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2009, 04:21:58 pm »
Yeah Dickie, spectacular, but where the hell is the taco truck?!

Give a man a taco, and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to track down a taco truck...

MRaup

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11432
  • The goddamn Germans ain't got nothin to do with it
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2009, 04:22:46 pm »
Give a man a taco, and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to track down a taco truck...

and he'll know where to find cheap day-labor for life?
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer." - Norm.

"Your words yield destruction, sorrow and are meant just to hate and hurt..." - Das

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2009, 04:24:14 pm »
Give a man a taco, and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to track down a taco truck...

gastroenteritis for a life time.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2009, 04:25:41 pm »
and he'll know where to find cheap day-labor for life?

Si
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2009, 04:26:15 pm »
Evidently he got his feelings hurt about some things Wade said in response to a question about being second guessed by the media at a speech Tuesday at West Virginia University.  LINK (no need to read, as he does not really go into Wades comment, except as to say Wade has a low opinion about the media...).

"We'd have no professional sports without great journalists."  That can be disproven in about 2 seconds.  Exhibit A - Houston.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2009, 04:29:23 pm »
It'll be warm when they get back.  JtheJO called Carlos Lee and Lee said, (about the hitting)

"We're used to playing in the heat in spring training and all of a sudden we go to play in the cold and now it's different," he said. "With the cold temperature it took us a while to get adjusted. As you know we play in the warmth in Houston after playing in the heat of Florida and then it took us a bit of a while to get settled in while playing in the cold."
Ortiz's blog, scroll up or down at your own risk

I am skeptical JJO actually wrote that blog post. Sure, there's the obligatory "look at me" reference but it's way too subtle.

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2009, 04:35:31 pm »
I am skeptical JJO actually wrote that blog post. Sure, there's the obligatory "look at me" reference but it's way too subtle.

"I have Carlos Lee's cell phone number" aint subtle. 

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2009, 04:37:31 pm »
"I have Carlos Lee's cell phone number" aint subtle. 

I'm surprised that he didn't mention that he had to steal Carlos' mama's phone in order to get Carlos to answer.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

pravata

  • Guest

JackAstro

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3824
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2009, 04:44:33 pm »
It is fascinating that he gets paid for thoughts like that.

No, nobody is making money off of Twitter. Except the taco truck, of course.
"We live in a society of laws. Why do you think I took you to all those Police Academy movies? For fun? Well, I didn't hear anybody laughing, did you?"
Say hi on the Twitter

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2009, 04:49:59 pm »
"I have Carlos Lee's cell phone number" aint subtle. 

I still say JJO didn't write that and I'm sticking by it.

The real Jesus would've found a way to work in a reference to the accident.

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2009, 04:54:22 pm »
No, nobody is making money off of Twitter. Except the taco truck, of course.

Those guys are going to make a truck load off those 140 characters

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2009, 04:55:12 pm »
I still say JJO didn't write that and I'm sticking by it.

The real Jesus would've found a way to work in a reference to the accident.

What happened was they were comparing My Little Pony cell phone covers and he saw Carlos' number.  Probably didn't want to mention that.

lnewcomer

  • Clark
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2009, 08:54:32 pm »
I still say JJO didn't write that and I'm sticking by it.

The real Jesus would've found a way to work in a reference to the accident.

or growing up as a Dodgers fan

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2009, 03:00:47 am »
Carlos has several cell phones. Make what you will of that.

I thought Sutton was pretty good and could possibly compete for a spot on the team at 2B at some point soon, but it's obvious that if the team is going to do anything this year Keppinger is going to be a significant part of that. For better or for worse. So I'm going to wait until August to give this deal any more thought at all. In the mean time I'm going to tweet. Man, I'm tweeting like crazy and I'm loving it.
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregúntale a Pedro Navaja

Russe

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 272
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2009, 03:49:13 am »
I'm torn...at some point, this team should start relying on their homegrown-talent. And I'm not unconvinced Keppinger wouldn't have been DFA'd before the season started. But as far as I can remember, Sutton has only had one great season, and that came as a 25 year old repeating AA. So I'm willing to let this play out before I make a final judgment. That said, Johnson, Manzella, and Maysonet turning into productive big-leaguers would help make this deal a lot easier to swallow. 

ETA: Also, I wonder if this deal leads to a greater focus on middle infielders in the upcoming draft. For all of Heck's talk about "drafting up the middle" they didn't take middle infielder until Jeff Hulett in the 13th round last year. And aside from Maysonet and Manzella, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the system right now that seems likely to contribute at a major-league level.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 03:53:21 am by Russe »

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2009, 06:24:44 am »
I'm torn...at some point, this team should start relying on their homegrown-talent. And I'm not unconvinced Keppinger wouldn't have been DFA'd before the season started. But as far as I can remember, Sutton has only had one great season, and that came as a 25 year old repeating AA. So I'm willing to let this play out before I make a final judgment. That said, Johnson, Manzella, and Maysonet turning into productive big-leaguers would help make this deal a lot easier to swallow. 

ETA: Also, I wonder if this deal leads to a greater focus on middle infielders in the upcoming draft. For all of Heck's talk about "drafting up the middle" they didn't take middle infielder until Jeff Hulett in the 13th round last year. And aside from Maysonet and Manzella, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the system right now that seems likely to contribute at a major-league level.

Keep an eye on Albert Cartwright down at Lexington.  Shows some promise
Always ready to go to a game.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2009, 08:01:22 am »
I'm torn...at some point, this team should start relying on their homegrown-talent.

why does it matter where good players come from? all this hand-wringing over this trade is mystifying to me.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

drew corleone

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2458
    • View Profile
    • http://2centmovies.blogspot.com
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2009, 08:15:24 am »
From Dick Justice (via Tweeter)...

"So Drew Sutton IS the player to be named later in the Jeff Keppinger trade. Nice going, Eddie. Go trade a couple more prospects."

It is fascinating that he gets paid for thoughts like that.

I, too, decided to follow Pinwheel, and when I saw that comment last night I knew it would end up on here.

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2009, 08:23:55 am »
why does it matter where good players come from? all this hand-wringing over this trade is mystifying to me.

Agreed.  The comparison I'd like to make is premature but Keppinger reminds me a lot of a younger Loretta (only I don't recall Loretta having trouble against righties).  If he comes anywhere near that level, this was a steal (obviously Keppinger has to start hitting righties).  If not, he's still proving to be an outstanding compliment to Blum in the lefty/righty platoon.  

  
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2009, 09:31:50 am »
Not that have any first hand knowledge of Sutton, but I figured that if things work out well for him, one day he'll grow up to be Jeff Keppinger. 
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2009, 09:34:26 am »
I'm torn...at some point, this team should start relying on their homegrown-talent.

The Astros did.  They used homegrown talent (exactly 1 minor leaguer) to secure a major league player.
Goin' for a bus ride.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2009, 09:50:13 am »
The Astros did.  They used homegrown talent (exactly 1 minor leaguer) to secure a major league player.

Ding ding ding!  I fail to see what the big deal is about losing Sutton when the guy you got in return is a 29-yr-old already contributing at the major-league level.



pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2009, 10:02:04 am »
Ding ding ding!  I fail to see what the big deal is about losing Sutton when the guy you got in return is a 29-yr-old already contributing at the major-league level.




Twitter allows us to see the knee jerk verbal incontinence of the essentially stupid. (Also the essentially brilliant, but that aint what's going on here.) Not pretty.  I think we all understand what's going on with Justice's twit.  He got his widdle feew'ns hurt when GM Wade called him a worthless pustule on the butt of baseball.  Look for even more wfw and flips flops now that Pinwheel is all atwitter. (Twitter has almost as many ways to make fun as does tea bag.)

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2009, 11:23:15 am »
Waiting for Justice to see that Troy Patton is off to a good start at AA Bowie and bemoan that loss as well.  Forget that he missed all of last year with surgery.
Always ready to go to a game.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2009, 11:33:24 am »
Waiting for Justice to see that Troy Patton is off to a good start at AA Bowie and bemoan that loss as well.  Forget that he missed all of last year with surgery.

I'm going to register a Twitter account just so I can send him updates on Chad Reineke's performance in AAA Sacramento.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2009, 12:10:57 pm »
Waiting for Justice to see that Troy Patton is off to a good start at AA Bowie and bemoan that loss as well.  Forget that he missed all of last year with surgery.


...and that AA is a level he already mastered pre-surgery.
Goin' for a bus ride.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2009, 01:24:04 pm »

...and that AA is a level he already mastered pre-surgery.

Exactly
Always ready to go to a game.

AtascAstro

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1092
  • 92 in 2011!
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2009, 01:52:26 pm »
Waiting for Justice to see that Troy Patton is off to a good start at AA Bowie and bemoan that loss as well.  Forget that he missed all of last year with surgery.


But what about Luuuuuuke Scot?

--He's batting .276 with 8 hits, 5 walks, and 5 strikeouts.

Can you believe we gave that up for lousy old Tejada

--He's only batting .353 with 12 hits, 3 walks, and 3 strikeouts.

Of course Luke was really replaced with Hunter Pence
--Who, by doing nothing more than swinging as hard as he can at everythign he can, is batting .303 with 10 hits, 3 walks, and 6 strikeouts.

Man, we really got fleeced, gave up so many prospects.  Don't even get me started on Matt Albers (11.25 ERA, 4.0 IP) and Sarfate (4.26 ERA, 6.1 IP).  I mean we've really struggled to replace those pieces in the bullpen.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2009, 03:05:43 pm »

But what about Luuuuuuke Scot?

--He's batting .276 with 8 hits, 5 walks, and 5 strikeouts.

Can you believe we gave that up for lousy old Tejada

--He's only batting .353 with 12 hits, 3 walks, and 3 strikeouts.

Of course Luke was really replaced with Hunter Pence
--Who, by doing nothing more than swinging as hard as he can at everythign he can, is batting .303 with 10 hits, 3 walks, and 6 strikeouts.

Man, we really got fleeced, gave up so many prospects.  Don't even get me started on Matt Albers (11.25 ERA, 4.0 IP) and Sarfate (4.26 ERA, 6.1 IP).  I mean we've really struggled to replace those pieces in the bullpen.

And don't forget  Michael Costanzo who is hitting monocled snake eyes (.111) at AAA Norfolk with 2 hits in 18 at bats, 5 walks and 5 Ks.

I think by far Patton has the most potential the help the O's but it will have to be a great deal of help to equal what Tejada has done to help the Astros.
Always ready to go to a game.

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2009, 03:16:28 pm »
Has every former Astros pitching prospect gotten hurt? Even Taylor Buchholz is on the DL with an elbow injury. He had a great year last season.

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2009, 04:24:01 pm »

But what about Luuuuuuke Scot?

--He's batting .276 with 8 hits, 5 walks, and 5 strikeouts.

Can you believe we gave that up for lousy old Tejada

--He's only batting .353 with 12 hits, 3 walks, and 3 strikeouts.

Of course Luke was really replaced with Hunter Pence
--Who, by doing nothing more than swinging as hard as he can at everythign he can, is batting .303 with 10 hits, 3 walks, and 6 strikeouts.

Man, we really got fleeced, gave up so many prospects.  Don't even get me started on Matt Albers (11.25 ERA, 4.0 IP) and Sarfate (4.26 ERA, 6.1 IP).  I mean we've really struggled to replace those pieces in the bullpen.

To be fair, Tejada did bat .339 in April of '08, so a fast start doesn't really mean much at this point.  Anyways, Luke Scott really was replaced by Bourn, since Pence was going to be in the lineup either way.  They're different players, but comparing Bourn and Scott will be more indicative of the kind of deal we made than comparing Scott v. Pence.  If we get two seasons of average shortstop production (at $13M a pop), is that better than what the Orioles get out of 5 years of Patton, 4 of Albers (he of the 3.49 ERA last season), 3 of Scott, and whatever they can salvage from Costanzo and Sarfate?  Since those guys were, and still are, unproven outside of Scott, we can't fully judge the results right now.  But, if Bourn doesn't pan out and Patton, Albers, and Scott are regulars through their arbitration-eligible years, it's hard to proclaim it a good trade on our part with, or without, the financial differences.

juliogotay

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8738
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2009, 04:31:10 pm »
To be fair, Tejada did bat .339 in April of '08, so a fast start doesn't really mean much at this point.  Anyways, Luke Scott really was replaced by Bourn, since Pence was going to be in the lineup either way.  They're different players, but comparing Bourn and Scott will be more indicative of the kind of deal we made than comparing Scott v. Pence.  If we get two seasons of average shortstop production (at $13M a pop), is that better than what the Orioles get out of 5 years of Patton, 4 of Albers (he of the 3.49 ERA last season), 3 of Scott, and whatever they can salvage from Costanzo and Sarfate?  Since those guys were, and still are, unproven outside of Scott, we can't fully judge the results right now.  But, if Bourn doesn't pan out and Patton, Albers, and Scott are regulars through their arbitration-eligible years, it's hard to proclaim it a good trade on our part with, or without, the financial differences.


How can you possibly use Bourn's performance to judge the Tejada deal when he was not included in that deal. Bourn is here because the Astros gave up Lidge and Bruntlett. If you want to look at those two deals together then you have to factor in the Valverde deal because he replaced Lidge.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2009, 05:52:33 pm »
To be fair, Tejada did bat .339 in April of '08, so a fast start doesn't really mean much at this point.  Anyways, Luke Scott really was replaced by Bourn, since Pence was going to be in the lineup either way.  They're different players, but comparing Bourn and Scott will be more indicative of the kind of deal we made than comparing Scott v. Pence.  If we get two seasons of average shortstop production (at $13M a pop), is that better than what the Orioles get out of 5 years of Patton, 4 of Albers (he of the 3.49 ERA last season), 3 of Scott, and whatever they can salvage from Costanzo and Sarfate?  Since those guys were, and still are, unproven outside of Scott, we can't fully judge the results right now.  But, if Bourn doesn't pan out and Patton, Albers, and Scott are regulars through their arbitration-eligible years, it's hard to proclaim it a good trade on our part with, or without, the financial differences.

Scott is not a CF.

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2009, 06:08:56 pm »
Everything goes back to the Wagner trade.  One of the most significant transactions of the modern Astros era.  It set up most of what followed.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2009, 06:22:16 pm »

How can you possibly use Bourn's performance to judge the Tejada deal when he was not included in that deal. Bourn is here because the Astros gave up Lidge and Bruntlett. If you want to look at those two deals together then you have to factor in the Valverde deal because he replaced Lidge.

You can't really compare Scott and Pence when Pence would be in the lineup, anyway.  It was a separate deal, but Bourn is the player that replaced Scott as the third outfielder.  If he pans out, great, but if not, then we gave up a solid OF and replaced him with a sub-par OF.  It wouldn't matter what transactions transpired to make it happen.  

Would we have traded for Valverde if we still had Lidge?  I doubt it.  But, we probably would have traded Lidge even if Bourn weren't available (at least I would hope so).  

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2009, 06:29:39 pm »
Scott is not a CF.

Pence was serviceable at the position, though.  He doesn't have the raw speed that Bourn does, but it wasn't hurting the club to have him manning CF.  My assumption was that Pence would have continued playing CF while Scott would have stayed in RF.

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2009, 06:34:11 pm »
Pence was serviceable at the position, though.  He doesn't have the raw speed that Bourn does, but it wasn't hurting the club to have him manning CF.  My assumption was that Pence would have continued playing CF while Scott would have stayed in RF.

Pence was borderline horrible in CF.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2009, 06:48:00 pm »
Pence was borderline horrible in CF.

He may not have looked good doing it, but what does he look good doing?  He had good enough range and had a fielding percentage that was about league average.  I know defense isn't easily quantifiable, but Pence's '07 was much better metrically than Bourn's '08.  Plus, Pence wasn't considered much of a fielder, even in LF, before his abbreviated AFL stint.  That he had improved enough to have scouts consider him able to play anywhere in the outfield is pretty remarkable. 

homer

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6509
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2009, 07:20:27 pm »
He may not have looked good doing it, but what does he look good doing?  He had good enough range and had a fielding percentage that was about league average.  I know defense isn't easily quantifiable, but Pence's '07 was much better metrically than Bourn's '08.  Plus, Pence wasn't considered much of a fielder, even in LF, before his abbreviated AFL stint.  That he had improved enough to have scouts consider him able to play anywhere in the outfield is pretty remarkable. 

What was Chris Burke's metric in CF?
Oye. Vamos, vamos.

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2009, 07:26:46 pm »
He may not have looked good doing it, but what does he look good doing?  He had good enough range and had a fielding percentage that was about league average.  I know defense isn't easily quantifiable, but Pence's '07 was much better metrically than Bourn's '08.  Plus, Pence wasn't considered much of a fielder, even in LF, before his abbreviated AFL stint.  That he had improved enough to have scouts consider him able to play anywhere in the outfield is pretty remarkable. 

You apparently weren't watching his routes in CF. Those routes, his bad jumps, and his boomerang throws to the infield made him awful in CF. His throwing appears to have improved in the last year, but he's still no sure thing out in RF. There is no way he was "passable" in CF, unless you're happy with a 75-win team.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2009, 07:35:13 pm »
He may not have looked good doing it, but what does he look good doing?  He had good enough range and had a fielding percentage that was about league average.  I know defense isn't easily quantifiable, but Pence's '07 was much better metrically than Bourn's '08.  Plus, Pence wasn't considered much of a fielder, even in LF, before his abbreviated AFL stint.  That he had improved enough to have scouts consider him able to play anywhere in the outfield is pretty remarkable. 

You are woefully uninformed.
Goin' for a bus ride.

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2009, 07:38:42 pm »
He may not have looked good doing it, but what does he look good doing?  He had good enough range and had a fielding percentage that was about league average.  I know defense isn't easily quantifiable, but Pence's '07 was much better metrically than Bourn's '08.  Plus, Pence wasn't considered much of a fielder, even in LF, before his abbreviated AFL stint.  That he had improved enough to have scouts consider him able to play anywhere in the outfield is pretty remarkable. 

Oh, ok. I'm going to need some zone rating and range factor comparisons before I completely change my opinion.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

juliogotay

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8738
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2009, 08:10:06 pm »
You can't really compare Scott and Pence when Pence would be in the lineup, anyway.  It was a separate deal, but Bourn is the player that replaced Scott as the third outfielder.  If he pans out, great, but if not, then we gave up a solid OF and replaced him with a sub-par OF.  It wouldn't matter what transactions transpired to make it happen.  

Would we have traded for Valverde if we still had Lidge?  I doubt it.  But, we probably would have traded Lidge even if Bourn weren't available (at least I would hope so).  


I simply do not understand your logic at all but I really want to know why you were so anxious to trade Lidge?

MRaup

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11432
  • The goddamn Germans ain't got nothin to do with it
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2009, 08:22:04 pm »
Seriously. Stop feeding the Clark/Trolls.
"Terrorists, Sam. They've taken over my stomach and they're demanding beer." - Norm.

"Your words yield destruction, sorrow and are meant just to hate and hurt..." - Das

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2009, 08:29:24 pm »
You apparently weren't watching his routes in CF. Those routes, his bad jumps, and his boomerang throws to the infield made him awful in CF. His throwing appears to have improved in the last year, but he's still no sure thing out in RF. There is no way he was "passable" in CF, unless you're happy with a 75-win team.

You could have said the same thing about Taveras as a rookie. 

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2009, 08:31:28 pm »
You are woefully uninformed.

Quote
One scout compares Pence to major league outfielder Eric Byrnes for his unorthodox approach at the plate, his speed and the way he plays from day-to-day.

"This is a guy who has that undeniable energy," the scout said. "He's got that different approach, but to me, he's a bigger, stronger version of Byrnes who will hit for more power and give you some defensive versatility in the outfield.

"For me, he can play all three spots, with enough arm strength and power to be a legitimate everyday right fielder. But he's also showed enough burst and range to play center if you need him there. He's proven he can do a little bit of everything defensively--he's no longer a liability. He's a big league quality outfielder."

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262731.html


astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2009, 08:37:34 pm »

"You can't really compare Scott and Pence when Pence would be in the lineup, anyway.  It was a separate deal, but Bourn is the player that replaced Scott as the third outfielder.  If he pans out, great, but if not, then we gave up a solid OF and replaced him with a sub-par OF.  It wouldn't matter what transactions transpired to make it happen. 

Would we have traded for Valverde if we still had Lidge?  I doubt it.  But, we probably would have traded Lidge even if Bourn weren't available (at least I would hope so)." 

I simply do not understand your logic at all but I really want to know why you were so anxious to trade Lidge?

I came across differently than I intended to.  I was never really wanting them to trade Lidge, but Wade seemed determined to do so.  Since he was determined to trade him, I would hope that they weren't limiting themselves just to Bourn as a return. 

austro

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 19637
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2009, 08:39:53 pm »
You could have said the same thing about Taveras as a rookie. 

Sorry, not the same thng. Taveras is so damned fast that he could make up for bad jumps; Pence, while not slow, isn't so fortunate. And Taveras always had a very strong and accurate arm, which Pence did not and does not have (tonight's put out of Tevaras notwithstanding).

Pence will probably prove to be a serviceable major-league outfielder. But I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a trade for genuinely valuable player. He can be replaced.
I remember all the good times me 'n Miller enjoyed
Up and down the M1 in some luminous yo-yo toy
But the future has to change - and to change I've got to destroy
Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2009, 08:46:49 pm »
Sorry, not the same thng. Taveras is so damned fast that he could make up for bad jumps; Pence, while not slow, isn't so fortunate. And Taveras always had a very strong and accurate arm, which Pence did not and does not have (tonight's put out of Tevaras notwithstanding).

Pence will probably prove to be a serviceable major-league outfielder. But I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a trade for genuinely valuable player. He can be replaced.

Pence doesn't have the defensive ceiling that Taveras has, but like Taveras, Pence could become a better fielder, which was the point.  As new as Pence was to the position, doing so wouldn't come as a surprise.  He'd never become an elite fielder, but he could become a good one. 

I agree with your assessment of Pence's value, by the way. 

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2009, 10:56:12 pm »
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/news/262731.html



Yes, I know what BA wrote.  I've written summaries of scouts' opinions as well so I know that many scouts did not share that one scout's opinion of Pence's defense. 

The reality is that when Pence was drafted in 2004 he was considered a liability in left field.  However, it is a testament to his hard work that he became at least a non-liability.  In fact in 2005 he worked to improve his defense to the point that he was Corpus Christi's regular starting right fielder in 2006 for the entire year.  Scouts then, prior to the AFL stint, saw that he could at least play the position and not embarrass himself.

Many scouts though did not and still do not believe he has the arm of a major league right fielder.  Too, many do not believe in Pence as a versatile outfielder.  The scout BA quotes implies Pence could be an everyday centerfielder.  I know that are a number of scouts who directly dispute that.  Pence has the speed to make up for his difficulty reading the ball.  That generally doesn't hurt him in right.  It did hurt him in center and that's one big reason he didn't stay in center.
Goin' for a bus ride.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2009, 05:39:03 am »
Footer likes to Sutton deal:

Quote
Count me as not outraged. Sutton is 25, too old really to be regarded as a true prospect, and the club didn't envision him as anything more than a utility infielder....One executive who knows Keppinger well cannot believe the Reds got rid of him. Meanwhile, the Astros have a versatile infielder who can hit lefties and who's under club control for a while. He's not a superstar, but he's not a rookie, either. He'll be very good for this team, and was more than worth the cost of a Sutton.
Always ready to go to a game.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2009, 09:38:09 am »
Pence was serviceable at the position, though.  He doesn't have the raw speed that Bourn does, but it wasn't hurting the club to have him manning CF.  My assumption was that Pence would have continued playing CF while Scott would have stayed in RF.

So was Biggio, until they started losing games because serviceable won't cut it in CF.  In fact, I would place Berkman, Biggio, Burke and Pence in the same hat in terms of playing CF, meaning you've got to be kidding me that anyone with half a baseball brain would think that is a long-term solution intead of the stop-gap solutions that they were.  Your assumption about Pence is wrong and nowhere near what was a concern on the part of the Astros.  Just so you can catch up to what your team is actually thinking:

1. Pence is never going to be a CF.  Period.
2. Pence is actually serviceable as a RF, however, his true position is LF.
3. Luke Scott isn't serviceable as a RF, however he is serviceable as a LF, however number 2, he's a very good DH
4. The Astros signed a guy named Carlos Lee to a 100 million dollar contract, he plays LF, you don't bench that guy in order to put Luke Scott or Hunter Pence into that position unless you teach Lee how to play first base or lobby the Commissioner to make a rule that the NL can use a DH like the American League.  Else, lobby for the commish to move your team over to the AL.  If you don't want to do that, then STFU about Carlos Lee (unless you trade him), he's your LF for a good long time.

So now that you're clear in your head what is actually going on and not some fanta-crap stuff that is floated on the interwebs... ahum... what was your point again?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 09:58:18 am by Noe in Austin »

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2009, 09:39:55 am »
He may not have looked good doing it, but what does he look good doing?  He had good enough range and had a fielding percentage that was about league average.  I know defense isn't easily quantifiable, but Pence's '07 was much better metrically than Bourn's '08.  Plus, Pence wasn't considered much of a fielder, even in LF, before his abbreviated AFL stint.  That he had improved enough to have scouts consider him able to play anywhere in the outfield is pretty remarkable. 

Do you watch the game?  This is horrible.  Your eyeballs can tell you what you need to know about defense.  And what scout did you talk to that told you Pence can play anywhere in the outfield?


Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2009, 09:43:42 am »
You could have said the same thing about Taveras as a rookie. 

Really, do you watch baseball?  Willy Taveras was great playing CF in the minors, excellent arm, played the position eggszactly how it's supposed to be played.  He had trouble early adjusting to the way the larger stadiums play as opposed to the minor league parks, but he was not deficient in skills to play the position.  And he got benched by Garner because he was lazy and would not work with Cruz to get better at reading the ball off the bat in the bigger stadiums.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2009, 09:56:14 am »
Yes, I know what BA wrote.  I've written summaries of scouts' opinions as well so I know that many scouts did not share that one scout's opinion of Pence's defense. 

The reality is that when Pence was drafted in 2004 he was considered a liability in left field.  However, it is a testament to his hard work that he became at least a non-liability.  In fact in 2005 he worked to improve his defense to the point that he was Corpus Christi's regular starting right fielder in 2006 for the entire year.  Scouts then, prior to the AFL stint, saw that he could at least play the position and not embarrass himself.

Many scouts though did not and still do not believe he has the arm of a major league right fielder.  Too, many do not believe in Pence as a versatile outfielder.  The scout BA quotes implies Pence could be an everyday centerfielder.  I know that are a number of scouts who directly dispute that.  Pence has the speed to make up for his difficulty reading the ball.  That generally doesn't hurt him in right.  It did hurt him in center and that's one big reason he didn't stay in center.

And the reality is that the scout that talked to Baseball America did not say "everyday" when he spoke about CF.  He said "everyday" in terms of RF (which what the Astros are doing right now).  Here is the quote again:

"For me, he can play all three spots, with enough arm strength and power to be a legitimate everyday right fielder. But he's also showed enough burst and range to play center if you need him there."

Realize what scouts say is precisely what they mean: Pence can occasionally slip over to CF, just like occasionally Darrin Erstad can play CF.  But to make a huge leap in logic that you can, for instance, trade Michael Bourn, move Darin Erstad to CF, trade Carlos Lee, move Hunter Pence to LF, move Lance Berkman to RF and then sign Adam Dunn to play 1st (as a for instance) is the type of logic being applied here.  That is fanta-crap type of thinking, or Todd the Bod (whichever comes first).  But now it's being done in retrospect with Luke Scott, who unless he was going to play LF or DH (and Houston does not have a DH position), he was going to be a bench player for his tenure here.  Also, realize that Luke Scott was only a passable LF in the same way Carlos Lee is passable.  But Luke Scott will never be the same hitter that Carlos Lee is so it would be dumb to think that you would want Scott in left as opposed to Carlos Lee.

Scott was not going to replace Lee.  Scott was not going to replace Pence and to suggest a Lee, Pence, Scott outfield is to suggest not having defense in the outfield for an entire season.  And that is how74 win seasons happen.

This is all crazy talk.  Did no one, I mean *NO ONE* listen to Tal Smith and Cecil Cooper (before Ed Wade joined the club) when they took over for the fired Purpura and Garner?  The number 1 issue of moving Houston back into a better club was "speed".  If  anyone thinks they were talking about stealing bases, they were wrong.  Defense was getting woeful by the minute under Purpura and that is why Tal Smith agreed with letting him go.  Ed Wade was hired because he understood where Smith wanted to go with this club and made the moves appropriate for the short-term goals and with Bobby Heck, the long term goals.

Paying just a little more attention to what the team is doing can really help keep anyone from thinking they actually know how to evaluate a trade or series of trades.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 10:02:03 am by Noe in Austin »

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2009, 10:05:00 am »
I came across differently than I intended to.  I was never really wanting them to trade Lidge, but Wade seemed determined to do so.  Since he was determined to trade him, I would hope that they weren't limiting themselves just to Bourn as a return. 

Tal Smith was determined to get a centerfielder.  They tried during the previous season to trade for Bourn.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2009, 10:18:40 am »
Tal Smith was determined to get a centerfielder.  They tried during the previous season to trade for Bourn.

Drayton McLane saw what a great CF does for a team when they acquired Carlos Beltran.  In the words of his star pitcher, Roy Oswalt (who does talk to McLane about the team) "That thar is what wins ya ten or more games on defense alone! *spit*".  So the owner tried to re-up Beltran not only for the his offense (which showed up during the playoffs but was absent during the two months of the season he was here) but also for his outstanding defense in CF.  Prior to that, Houston played around with Craig Biggio and Lance Berkman in CF because Richard "Gimpy" Hidalgo was no longer an option and Roger Cedeno (and here is an example of why speed is not what makes a good CF) was just bad.  CF was a horrible mess and the pitchers were complaining... loudly... about it.

So when Beltran left for New York, the only option left for the team was to give the job to the AAA kid, Willy Taveras.  Here is the rub though, Taveras struggled and when asked to work on some things, he pulled the worse act he could have pulled... a "do you know who I am" type of act which led to his being benched and the insertion of Burke into the starting spot in CF.  Then, because Burke didn't do so badly, the next season Taveras was traded and guess who they made the starting CF?  Yes, Chris Burke, who for the first two month of the season reminded everyone why you don't make short-terms stop gap measures your long-term solutions.  Soon the cries of "can we move Lance Berkman back to CF?" were being muttered (and thus the "Whaaa are we doing around here?" type of reaction by the president of the club).  When McLane wanted to know why his team that went to the world series was so woeful only a few short seasons later, beyond the obvious of pitching, it was not held back to let him know that defense was the other reason.  Pitching and defense win championships.  Even the venerable Lance Berkman said so during those dark hours after Purpura and Garner were fired.

So does it surprise anyone that defense is being improved up the middle and the corners are being used for the offense production? 

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2009, 11:04:40 am »
I came across differently than I intended to.  I was never really wanting them to trade Lidge, but Wade seemed determined to do so.  Since he was determined to trade him, I would hope that they weren't limiting themselves just to Bourn as a return. 

this is bullshit.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2009, 11:24:44 am »
And the reality is that the scout that talked to Baseball America did not say "everyday" when he spoke about CF.  He said "everyday" in terms of RF (which what the Astros are doing right now).  Here is the quote again:

"For me, he can play all three spots, with enough arm strength and power to be a legitimate everyday right fielder. But he's also showed enough burst and range to play center if you need him there."

Realize what scouts say is precisely what they mean: Pence can occasionally slip over to CF, just like occasionally Darrin Erstad can play CF. 

You and I read that paragraph differently.  I read that to mean A) "play all three spots" as in play everyday, B) "arm strength and power to be a legitimate everyday right fielder" to mean he's improved his arm to the point he can play right, C) "he's also showed enough burst and range to play center if you need him there." to mean he's got the speed and acceleration to play center.  However, he specifically uses Byrnes, circa 2006, as a comp.  If the scout had that in his head then I'd take that to mean Pence can play all 3 spots everyday, not be spectacular, but play them all well.
Goin' for a bus ride.

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2009, 12:13:27 pm »
So was Biggio, until they started losing games because serviceable won't cut it in CF.  In fact, I would place Berkman, Biggio, Burke and Pence in the same hat in terms of playing CF, meaning you've got to be kidding me that anyone with half a baseball brain would think that is a long-term solution intead of the stop-gap solutions that they were.  Your assumption about Pence is wrong and nowhere near what was a concern on the part of the Astros.  Just so you can catch up to what your team is actually thinking:

1. Pence is never going to be a CF.  Period.
2. Pence is actually serviceable as a RF, however, his true position is LF.
3. Luke Scott isn't serviceable as a RF, however he is serviceable as a LF, however number 2, he's a very good DH
4. The Astros signed a guy named Carlos Lee to a 100 million dollar contract, he plays LF, you don't bench that guy in order to put Luke Scott or Hunter Pence into that position unless you teach Lee how to play first base or lobby the Commissioner to make a rule that the NL can use a DH like the American League.  Else, lobby for the commish to move your team over to the AL.  If you don't want to do that, then STFU about Carlos Lee (unless you trade him), he's your LF for a good long time.

So now that you're clear in your head what is actually going on and not some fanta-crap stuff that is floated on the interwebs... ahum... what was your point again?

That's quite a leap to say that I was advocating moving Lee.  The outfield I was saying they could have used was the same one they used most often in '07.  Was it a great outfield?  Not defensively.  But, if Bourn is the same player as he was last season, you have to wonder if the club would be better off with the '07 outfield, in the short-term, even if it is inferior defensively.  If Bourn doesn't prove that he can be an everyday player at any position, does that make the team better?  Was Bourn the right personnel move?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having good defense, especially up the middle.  That it forced us to get rid of Everett was/is one of my biggest problems with the Tejada trade.  Replacing an extremely gifted defensive shortstop with an average (at this point) offensive shortstop with above-average defense (when he's motivated) while adding $9M to the payroll was a big blow that no one is talking about.  Could that money and personnel have added an SP or CF with fewer ?'s?  I'm not saying that Scott was a vital part of the ballclub and I'm not offended that "he" was traded, but it boils down to what we get out of his roster spot.  

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2009, 12:16:37 pm »
That's quite a leap to say that I was advocating moving Lee.  The outfield I was saying they could have used was the same one they used most often in '07.  Was it a great outfield?  Not defensively.  But, if Bourn is the same player as he was last season, you have to wonder if the club would be better off with the '07 outfield, in the short-term, even if it is inferior defensively.  If Bourn doesn't prove that he can be an everyday player at any position, does that make the team better?  Was Bourn the right personnel move?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having good defense, especially up the middle.  That it forced us to get rid of Everett was/is one of my biggest problems with the Tejada trade.  Replacing an extremely gifted defensive shortstop with an average (at this point) offensive shortstop with above-average defense (when he's motivated) while adding $9M to the payroll was a big blow that no one is talking about.  Could that money and personnel have added an SP or CF with fewer ?'s?  I'm not saying that Scott was a vital part of the ballclub and I'm not offended that "he" was traded, but it boils down to what we get out of his roster spot.  


what team in baseball do you work for?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2009, 12:50:39 pm »
... Replacing an extremely gifted defensive shortstop with an average (at this point) offensive shortstop with above-average defense (when he's motivated) ...

Everett was injured for much of last season and hardly played for anyone.  I think the Astros anticipated that happening.  And when have you seen Miguel Tejada on a baseball field not motivated?  That is the craziest thing you've typed so far.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2009, 01:20:34 pm »
You and I read that paragraph differently.  I read that to mean A) "play all three spots" as in play everyday, B) "arm strength and power to be a legitimate everyday right fielder" to mean he's improved his arm to the point he can play right, C) "he's also showed enough burst and range to play center if you need him there." to mean he's got the speed and acceleration to play center.  However, he specifically uses Byrnes, circa 2006, as a comp.  If the scout had that in his head then I'd take that to mean Pence can play all 3 spots everyday, not be spectacular, but play them all well.

Yes we do.  I know scouts are very specific in what they say because if not, they'll be out of job.  Example:

Hunsicker: "Who is the top of our list for this year's draft... anyone"
Scout: "Chris Burke, he'll be available..."
Hunsicker: "Okay, why?"
Scout: "Well, he has (insert all scout information here in terms of five tools)...."
Hunsicker: "What position do you project him to play in the majors?  How does that fit with our needs?"
Head of Scouting: "Middle infielder"
Hunsicker: "Specifically, everyday position?"
Head of Scouting: "Everyday shortstop"
Hunsicker: "Wow, that is great.  So if he's threre at #10, then we'll grab Chris Burke"

There is a difference in saying "middle infielder" and saying "everyday shortstop", which Hunsicker was told and then he fumed when he saw that Burke had no business being a shortstop, much less an every day shortstop.  Pence is an outfielder, but if he plays everyday in the majors, his best position is LF.  Until there is an opening in LF, they'll live with what he can do in RF, which is limited.  So knowing what I know about scouts and the use of Eric Byrnes (a great example by the way), Pence has never been touted by any scout any where to be an everyday centerfielder.  Occasional CF, yes.  Every day?  I would be floored the same way I was when I saw Chris Burke play short stop in AA.

Noe

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2009, 01:26:26 pm »
That's quite a leap to say that I was advocating moving Lee.  The outfield I was saying they could have used was the same one they used most often in '07.  Was it a great outfield?  Not defensively.  But, if Bourn is the same player as he was last season, you have to wonder if the club would be better off with the '07 outfield, in the short-term, even if it is inferior defensively.  If Bourn doesn't prove that he can be an everyday player at any position, does that make the team better?  Was Bourn the right personnel move?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having good defense, especially up the middle.  That it forced us to get rid of Everett was/is one of my biggest problems with the Tejada trade.  Replacing an extremely gifted defensive shortstop with an average (at this point) offensive shortstop with above-average defense (when he's motivated) while adding $9M to the payroll was a big blow that no one is talking about.  Could that money and personnel have added an SP or CF with fewer ?'s?  I'm not saying that Scott was a vital part of the ballclub and I'm not offended that "he" was traded, but it boils down to what we get out of his roster spot.  

Wow, I did a horrible job explaining myself if you are not getting the gist of what I said.  Let's try this:

1. I don't really care what you or I think, I provided what the Astros think for you to understand what *they* did.  Get it?
2. Luke Scott is not an every day RF, very bad idea.
3. Hunter Pence is not an every day CF, very bad idea.
4. Carlos Lee is probably an every day DH, but as a LF, this is the least amount of damage a defensively challenged player can provide.  Think Greg Luzinski if you want a frame of reference.  So when I say Pence is an every day LF, what do you think I'm saying?  When you realize what I'm saying, do you still think he is an every day CF or at minimum that the Astros think he is?

So when you propose silly ideas that are ruminating in your head about what you would do in such cases as evaluating what the Astros actually did, think about it a little first before you type.  You're so far off it wasn't even plausible to begin with.  Scott and Bourn have zilch to do with each other.  If, however, what you're trying to say is "I don't like Michael Bourn" and leave it at that, you won't find many to argue with your opinion.  That is your opinion to hold on to at all times.  You're entitled to it.

But what that has to do with the Astros and what they think and how they acted is beyond me.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 01:28:19 pm by Noe in Austin »

matadorph

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2009, 01:56:34 pm »
That's quite a leap to say that I was advocating moving Lee.  The outfield I was saying they could have used was the same one they used most often in '07.  Was it a great outfield?  Not defensively.  But, if Bourn is the same player as he was last season, you have to wonder if the club would be better off with the '07 outfield, in the short-term, even if it is inferior defensively.  If Bourn doesn't prove that he can be an everyday player at any position, does that make the team better?  Was Bourn the right personnel move?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having good defense, especially up the middle.  That it forced us to get rid of Everett was/is one of my biggest problems with the Tejada trade.  Replacing an extremely gifted defensive shortstop with an average (at this point) offensive shortstop with above-average defense (when he's motivated) while adding $9M to the payroll was a big blow that no one is talking about.  Could that money and personnel have added an SP or CF with fewer ?'s?  I'm not saying that Scott was a vital part of the ballclub and I'm not offended that "he" was traded, but it boils down to what we get out of his roster spot.  

If you're all for good defense, especially up the middle of the diamond, I'd think you'd be able to recognize the obvious value in having a Bourn in CF over Hunter Pence. While Tejada may not have the range of Everett, as prav already noted, Tejada wasn't coming off a nasty leg fracture that could impact his defensive skills. Tejada's defense is solid, and he's an upgrade with the bat over Everett. Bourn's defense is exceptional and he brings speed to the lineup. I think it's inarguable that an outfield of Lee/Bourn/Pence is defensively miles ahead of Lee/Pence/Scott.

I cannot understand your logic here--you acknowledge the importance of defense, but Michael Bourn sucks as a hitter so let's start three LFers and put two of them out of position...at MMPUS, with one of the biggest centerfields in baseball?

Even if AE hadn't gotten hurt, he is and always will be a weakness in any batting order. Everett's career OBP is sub-.300 in 2300 ABs. Michael Bourn has a career .303 OBP in only 625 ABs, and you're already willing to give up on him as an everyday position player. For Luke Scott, who can't hit lefties consistently and isn't the clubhouse leader that Miguel Tejada appears to be.

Muy loco.

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2009, 04:19:36 pm »
Everett was injured for much of last season and hardly played for anyone.  I think the Astros anticipated that happening.  And when have you seen Miguel Tejada on a baseball field not motivated?  That is the craziest thing you've typed so far.

Maybe so (in regards to the prognostication).  I haven't had a problem with Tejada's energy as an Astro, but there were concerns during his tenure as an Oriole.  That was the motivation I was referring to.

pravata

  • Guest
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2009, 04:41:46 pm »
Maybe so (in regards to the prognostication).  I haven't had a problem with Tejada's energy as an Astro, but there were concerns during his tenure as an Oriole.  That was the motivation I was referring to.

After watching Tejada for a season, I think it was Baltimore that had the problem.

astrosfan76

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2194
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2009, 04:47:15 pm »

So when you propose silly ideas that are ruminating in your head about what you would do in such cases as evaluating what the Astros actually did, think about it a little first before you type.  You're so far off it wasn't even plausible to begin with.  Scott and Bourn have zilch to do with each other.  If, however, what you're trying to say is "I don't like Michael Bourn" and leave it at that, you won't find many to argue with your opinion.  That is your opinion to hold on to at all times.  You're entitled to it.

But what that has to do with the Astros and what they think and how they acted is beyond me.

I didn't intend for the discussion to turn into a Bourn v. Scott/outfield defense debate.  I just question the reasoning behind trading the players they did for Tejada and making Bourn the centerpiece in the Lidge deal.  They gave up a lot of payroll flexibility and depth, even if some of it won't make an impact on the big-league club over the duration of their careers.  That's all.  

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2009, 09:00:01 am »
I didn't intend for the discussion to turn into a Bourn v. Scott/outfield defense debate.  I just question the reasoning behind trading the players they did for Tejada and making Bourn the centerpiece in the Lidge deal.  They gave up a lot of payroll flexibility and depth, even if some of it won't make an impact on the big-league club over the duration of their careers.  That's all.  

hey, here is the general response to you:

who gives a shit what you "question?" you are nobody, and it is none of your fucking business what decisions ownership and/or baseball people make about personnel moves or the payroll. just watch the games or play your fantasy team. my guess is that you do more of the former than the latter.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: PTBNL in Keppinger deal to be announced this week
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2009, 10:05:36 am »
hey, here is the general response to you:

who gives a shit what you "question?" you are nobody, and it is none of your fucking business what decisions ownership and/or baseball people make about personnel moves or the payroll. just watch the games or play your fantasy team. my guess is that you do more of the former than the latter.

Forget it.  He's rolling.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."