Author Topic: Looks like Coop has made his decision  (Read 6344 times)

Noe

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Looks like Coop has made his decision
« on: April 03, 2009, 07:53:54 pm »
If tonights lineup is to be believed, then the Astros lineup will be as follows:

1. Matsui
2. Pudge
3. Berkman
4. Lee
5. Tejada
6. Blum/Keppinger
7. Pence
8. Bourn
9. Pitcher

So now both Pence and Bourn get to bring up the rear of the lineup.  Hopefully Coop resist the temptation to move those two from those spots because if that is where they should hit, then leave them there.  Something tells me he's made up his mind and this is the lineup.  Cool!

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 08:55:08 pm »
Silly boy. Made up his mind?

Pudge hitting second and Bourn 8th are ridiculous.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 08:58:52 pm »
So now both Pence and Bourn get to bring up the rear of the lineup.  Hopefully Coop resist the temptation to move those two from those spots because if that is where they should hit, then leave them there.  Something tells me he's made up his mind and this is the lineup.  Cool!

Noe, what are the odds on Coop batting Bourn in the nine hole?
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 10:09:46 pm »
Silly boy. Made up his mind?

Pudge hitting second and Bourn 8th are ridiculous.

It shows that Bourn can't hit.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2009, 12:16:30 am »
If tonights lineup is to be believed, then the Astros lineup will be as follows:

1. Matsui
2. Pudge
3. Berkman
4. Lee
5. Tejada
6. Blum/Keppinger
7. Pence
8. Bourn
9. Pitcher

So now both Pence and Bourn get to bring up the rear of the lineup.  Hopefully Coop resist the temptation to move those two from those spots because if that is where they should hit, then leave them there.  Something tells me he's made up his mind and this is the lineup.  Cool!

UGH...what's cool about it?  I mean, yes, stability is a good thing.   But a high-strikeout/slow-footed/power hitter like Pudge belongs at the bottom, not the top.  Of course, everyone here knows that already...let me just hit my head a little bit more...
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2009, 12:34:00 am »
If tonights lineup is to be believed, then the Astros lineup will be as follows:

1. Matsui
2. Pudge
3. Berkman
4. Lee
5. Tejada
6. Blum/Keppinger
7. Pence
8. Bourn
9. Pitcher

So now both Pence and Bourn get to bring up the rear of the lineup.  Hopefully Coop resist the temptation to move those two from those spots because if that is where they should hit, then leave them there.  Something tells me he's made up his mind and this is the lineup.  Cool!
I put the over/under on Coop being ousted at May 12th.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2009, 12:47:06 am »
Pudge is hardly a power hitter any more.

Keppinger, with his tendency to make contact, might be a nice experiment in the 2 spot.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2009, 03:04:00 am »
Pudge is a singles (and doubles) hitter now. From what little I saw in ST he's a very good one. He'll get on base. Hopefully the 3-4-5 guys will hit the ball a long way.

I'm fascinated that everyone's out of joint that Bourn's not batting leadoff. He's fucking lucky to be on the team, much less in the opening day lineup. He is totally lost at the plate. He has terrible at bat after terrible at bat, never walks and rarely hits. I would say that his approach is poor, but he has no approach at the plate, not that I ever saw. I cannot imagine he will end the year as the team's CF. Who the fuck do you want Coop to bat first? If Coop put Bourn in the leadoff spot everyone would complain that he's leading off with a guy who's never on base.

Coop got dealt a shit hand here. He's forced to play Bourn, but he certainly can't lead off with a young player who has no idea how to confront major league pitching. You guys need to back the fuck off Coop for a while, at least on the leadoff situation.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2009, 09:33:58 am »
I would bet that Bourn ends this season with a higher OBP than Pudge.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2009, 10:05:25 am »
If tonights lineup is to be believed, then the Astros lineup will be as follows:

1. Matsui
2. Pudge
3. Berkman
4. Lee
5. Tejada
6. Blum/Keppinger
7. Pence
8. Bourn
9. Pitcher

So now both Pence and Bourn get to bring up the rear of the lineup.  Hopefully Coop resist the temptation to move those two from those spots because if that is where they should hit, then leave them there.  Something tells me he's made up his mind and this is the lineup.  Cool!



The opening day lineup is just the opening day lineup. Dozens of line-ups will be used this year and if this one doesn't work it will be changed. Personally, I like Pudge in an RBI spot like 7th and Bourn higher to use his speed to better effect. Somebody on this board documented how many different lineups were used last year so I wouldn't get too invested in the one on opening day.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2009, 10:25:31 am »


The opening day lineup is just the opening day lineup. Dozens of line-ups will be used this year and if this one doesn't work it will be changed. Personally, I like Pudge in an RBI spot like 7th and Bourn higher to use his speed to better effect. Somebody on this board documented how many different lineups were used last year so I wouldn't get too invested in the one on opening day.

And therein lies the problem.  Moving both Pence and Bourn around the lineup like chess pieces is insane.  Keep them where you think they belong and then use your others in the lineup as you see fit.  Matsui hates leadoff, he wants to hit second where his skills as a contact hitter are better served (and where he'll get more fastballs to do more damage... hitting in front of Berkman).  Pudge probably belongs in the seven hole, but that means you're ready to annoint Pence to a higher spot in the lineup or drop him all the way down to 8.

So when I say cool, I don't mean I agree with the lineup, I mean that at least Cooper will make one and then stick to it.  The worse thing I think I would hear coming out of spring and going into the OD and then beyond is how Cooper is going to make a lineup card daily that is different to match the other team's opposing pitcher and/or how he felt after eating a hearty breakfast.  That is overmanaging to start the season and that would be really bad.  If this is his lineup, with minor deviations when Matsui or Tejada sit, then fine... leave those kids right where you put them and don't move them.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2009, 10:27:28 am »
Pudge is a singles (and doubles) hitter now. From what little I saw in ST he's a very good one. He'll get on base. Hopefully the 3-4-5 guys will hit the ball a long way.

I'm fascinated that everyone's out of joint that Bourn's not batting leadoff. He's fucking lucky to be on the team, much less in the opening day lineup. He is totally lost at the plate. He has terrible at bat after terrible at bat, never walks and rarely hits. I would say that his approach is poor, but he has no approach at the plate, not that I ever saw. I cannot imagine he will end the year as the team's CF. Who the fuck do you want Coop to bat first? If Coop put Bourn in the leadoff spot everyone would complain that he's leading off with a guy who's never on base.

Coop got dealt a shit hand here. He's forced to play Bourn, but he certainly can't lead off with a young player who has no idea how to confront major league pitching. You guys need to back the fuck off Coop for a while, at least on the leadoff situation.

Not unrelated to being jerked around through the lineup all last year.  At some point, you have to say "be a professional and handle it."  But I don't think Bourn was at that point last year.  He needed some stability and probably a different manager.

Noe

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2009, 11:04:32 am »
Not unrelated to being jerked around through the lineup all last year.  At some point, you have to say "be a professional and handle it."  But I don't think Bourn was at that point last year.  He needed some stability and probably a different manager.

*DING, DING, DING*

If Bourn cannot play or cannot hit reasonably well in the major league level, the worse thing you can do is complicate the whole situation by jerking him around for an entire season.  One thing I hear fans say over and over is "I could have told them that, Bourn can't hit! I mean, just look at his stats!".  Argh!  When Jason Lane came up, many of the Astros brass thought they had found a right fielder for the many years to come.  So they gave him the extend time to play and as the league caught up to him, Lane was unable to make adjustments well enough to remain a full time player.  So as he migrated into a part time utility player, he was not even good enough to provide a much needed right handed power bat off the bench.  So how does relate to Bourn?

You have to find out if he's good enough.  That is the bottom line.  If Ed Wade is the only one that is convinced that the young man can play and everyone else thinks it's a waste of time, then you do neither Ed Wade nor Michael Bourn any favors by jerking the kid around and creating excuses for how the young man has not made his splash into the majors yet.  Give him time, maybe a full season's worth and find out.  If that means batting 8th, then so be it, but when you evaluate his performance with the bat, remember the context was as a number 8 hitter when doing so.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 11:42:33 am »
Pudge is hardly a power hitter any more.

Keppinger, with his tendency to make contact, might be a nice experiment in the 2 spot.

I completely agree
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Noe

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 01:24:12 pm »
Pudge is hardly a power hitter any more.

Keppinger, with his tendency to make contact, might be a nice experiment in the 2 spot.

Today's game has Bourn hitting leadoff and Kepping in the two hole.  I don't know if this is Cooper's alternate lineup or not, he's resting Pudge, Lee, Blum and Matsui and they're employing the DH today.  But in the 1 and 2, that looks like a fine alternate setup crew.  It lead to a run scored in the first inning, with the lineup working as it should: Bourn singles, steals second, Keppinger makes a bid to move him over to third with a swinging flyball to RF (not deep enough), Berkman flies out deep to LF (would've scored Bourn had Keppinger moved him over), Bourn moves to third and then Tejada drives in Bourn with single.

Today Pence is in the five hole.  I think for Bourn and Pence (and I'm talking about both these young men, not just Bourn), they can expect on given days to be in these two position but by and large, they will be 7 and 8 hitters for the season.  This is my suspicion right now, nothing I have other than how it seems to be Coopers thinking right now.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 03:45:06 pm »
Way, way wong, chuck. Maybe he can play, maybe he can't. He has not given a chance to use the skills he has. He has been mishandled from the beginning by one who appears to grabbnag lineups from day to dy and who appears to believe all hitter should be like he was.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 06:12:09 pm »
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Noe

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 11:16:46 pm »
FWIW - everything I heard about Abercrombie's humility and team player attitude is what is keeping him in the mix to the very end.  He knows his failing and is working hard at it and perhaps his hard work and determination will someday match his already more than outstanding professionalism.  Be it for the Astros or any other major league team, the man has his head screwed on right and someday, guys like that get that break they need to not only come up the majors (as Abercrombie has done in his career) but to stick in majors as he desires to do now.

Chin up, work hard, lay off the high cheese... and take advantage of the opportunity.  IOW - don't be like Luke Scott and think you deserve this as a right.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2009, 07:57:07 am »
FWIW - everything I heard about Abercrombie's humility and team player attitude is what is keeping him in the mix to the very end.  He knows his failing and is working hard at it and perhaps his hard work and determination will someday match his already more than outstanding professionalism.  Be it for the Astros or any other major league team, the man has his head screwed on right and someday, guys like that get that break they need to not only come up the majors (as Abercrombie has done in his career) but to stick in majors as he desires to do now.

Chin up, work hard, lay off the high cheese... and take advantage of the opportunity.  IOW - don't be like Luke Scott and think you deserve this as a right.

man, that is good to hear. you always hope the light will come on eventually for the guys with super tools. you listening, Yordany?
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2009, 09:32:17 am »
FWIW - everything I heard about Abercrombie's humility and team player attitude is what is keeping him in the mix to the very end.  He knows his failing and is working hard at it and perhaps his hard work and determination will someday match his already more than outstanding professionalism.  Be it for the Astros or any other major league team, the man has his head screwed on right and someday, guys like that get that break they need to not only come up the majors (as Abercrombie has done in his career) but to stick in majors as he desires to do now.

Chin up, work hard, lay off the high cheese... and take advantage of the opportunity.  IOW - don't be like Luke Scott and think you deserve this as a right.



I recently learned something else about Abercrombie I did not know. He  had many scholarship offers from high-rated collegiate football programs as a QB.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2009, 06:18:19 pm »
FWIW - everything I heard about Abercrombie's humility and team player attitude is what is keeping him in the mix to the very end.  He knows his failing and is working hard at it and perhaps his hard work and determination will someday match his already more than outstanding professionalism.  Be it for the Astros or any other major league team, the man has his head screwed on right and someday, guys like that get that break they need to not only come up the majors (as Abercrombie has done in his career) but to stick in majors as he desires to do now.

Chin up, work hard, lay off the high cheese... and take advantage of the opportunity.  IOW - don't be like Luke Scott and think you deserve this as a right.
"Michaels is a good player, an outstanding player," Abercrombie said. "You can't not go get him. He makes the team better. Hopefully, I can have a chance to come back up here and prove that I can do it."

Pretty classy demotion.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2009, 09:22:50 pm »
If tonights lineup is to be believed, then the Astros lineup will be as follows:

1. Matsui
2. Pudge
3. Berkman
4. Lee
5. Tejada
6. Blum/Keppinger
7. Pence
8. Bourn
9. Pitcher

So now both Pence and Bourn get to bring up the rear of the lineup.  Hopefully Coop resist the temptation to move those two from those spots because if that is where they should hit, then leave them there.  Something tells me he's made up his mind and this is the lineup.  Cool!

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that one game's lineup. Just out of curiosity I went through the boxscores of every Astros game this spring to scrutinize Bourn's place in the batting order. Michael Bourn had the second-most s/t ABs (behind Micah Hoffpauir).

I'm happy to report that Bourn was overwhelmingly used at either the #1 spot or the #2 spot in the order. In fact, I think Coop only started him in the eighth spot on three occasions this spring. Of Bourn's 92 ABs, he batted 32 times from the leadoff spot and 48 times from the two-hole. I am not at all convinced that Coop wants him to bat him eighth. The optimist in me thinks he and Wade might just be on the same page. We'll know soon enough.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009, 12:48:37 am »
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that one game's lineup. Just out of curiosity I went through the boxscores of every Astros game this spring to scrutinize Bourn's place in the batting order. Michael Bourn had the second-most s/t ABs (behind Micah Hoffpauir).

I'm happy to report that Bourn was overwhelmingly used at either the #1 spot or the #2 spot in the order. In fact, I think Coop only started him in the eighth spot on three occasions this spring. Of Bourn's 92 ABs, he batted 32 times from the leadoff spot and 48 times from the two-hole. I am not at all convinced that Coop wants him to bat him eighth. The optimist in me thinks he and Wade might just be on the same page. We'll know soon enough.

Well I usually don't, but what managers will do towards the end of spring training is set the lineup, get guys used to where they're going to hit and then let the roles mesh with the days ending in spring training.  The problem to me is Cooper is inconsistently consistent, meaning he may of decided to bat Bourn at the top of the lineup, used him there for the start of the spring to get him some reps, and then moved him around the last part of spring to get him into situations to work on some things without the pressure to have to actually bat leadoff.

Maybe.

Lance Berkman was asked by Brownie and JD on Saturday about Michael Bourn and how he saw his progress (or even lack thereof).  Lance said "At the start of spring, I wasn't too impressed because I didn't see anything I would call improvement or anything I could say he was working on.  The at the end of spring he just took off and it looked like he was developing a great approach at the plate.  I told him, look, if you're going to hit the ball a little defensively, then hit to the left side where you have a better chance of beating it out.  Hitting it to the right side is just futility for you.  And he has been doing that now, and we need him, he could be a big part of this club's success if he's turning the corner".

What concerns me is Cooper's first part of spring hyperventilating act and of course what I saw happen with Bourn last year and then thinking "oh boy, this is not going to be good..."  I'll be happy to be wrong and Cooper is on the same page as WadeSmith and Bourn is leadoff, Matsui is the #2 and Pudge is #6 (with Pence 7 and Blum 8 for now).  If it works that the two guys up top are getting on-base, that lineup from 3-8 is powerful.  That was the big IF last year and it could work if Matsui is using his contact skills by getting more fastballs because Lance is hitting behind him and thus hitting behind Bourn because what Bourn should be doing well is getting on base primarily.   It never really got off the ground last year, mainly because Matsui was hurt early and by the time he got back to the lineup, Bourn was in Coop's doghouse for failure to be an igniter!

So one game, yes, you're right.  One season?  I think we have plenty of evidence to concern ourselves if we believe that Bourn can be useful if he is given the proper amount of time to find out if he is everything WadeSmith thinks he can be.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009, 01:19:12 am »
"Michaels is a good player, an outstanding player," Abercrombie said. "You can't not go get him. He makes the team better. Hopefully, I can have a chance to come back up here and prove that I can do it."

Pretty classy demotion.

Commendable attitude. You hope things work out for guys like that.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2009, 01:57:47 am »
The problem to me is Cooper is inconsistently consistent, meaning he may of decided to bat Bourn at the top of the lineup, used him there for the start of the spring to get him some reps, and then moved him around the last part of spring to get him into situations to work on some things without the pressure to have to actually bat leadoff.

But that's not what he did. He really did use him consistently at the top of the lineup throughout the spring. I think Coop wants

Matsui
Bourn
Berkman
Lee
Tejada
Pence
Pudge
Blum

I could live with that lineup.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 08:33:23 am »
Matsui-Bourn over Bourn-Matsui is nonsensical to me.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 09:03:14 am »
Matsui-Bourn over Bourn-Matsui is nonsensical to me.
Matsui-Bourn would be ok with me if Bourn was a better bunter, because I could see about a third of those "sacrifices" turning into men on first and second. As it is, it still makes a lot more sense than Matsui-Pudge.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 10:55:58 am »
But that's not what he did. He really did use him consistently at the top of the lineup throughout the spring. I think Coop wants

Matsui
Bourn
Berkman
Lee
Tejada
Pence
Pudge
Blum

I could live with that lineup.


Oh deere lowered.  I said what he did over the past year gives rise to concern for when he went crazy this spring and then Bourn started to get penciled in the lower half of the lineup.  This last year not happen?  Any way, batting Matsui leadoff when he *HATES* to leadoff (and he does not have the skill to leadoff other than to make a pitcher work, but his OBP is not his forte, contact hitting is his forte) and then making Bourn be a contact hitter is kinda of crazy thinking to me.  If you think Cooper is on to something here, I sure would love to hear why!

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Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009, 02:01:51 pm »
If you think Cooper is on to something
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2009, 02:57:40 pm »
Oh deere lowered.  I said what he did over the past year gives rise to concern for when he went crazy this spring and then Bourn started to get penciled in the lower half of the lineup.

What I'm trying to tell you is that this didn't really happen. (And by "this" I mean Coop's crazy pencil and not his crazy mouth because we all heard him through his tantrums during the spring losing streak). I, too, thought Coop had Bourn mostly batting in the bottom half of the lineup until I spent some time scrolling through the s/t boxscores. To my surprise, he's actually kept him at either leadoff or the #2 spot throughout the spring session, a few games notwithstanding. Bourn's high number of ABs there coupled with Coop's statements early in the spring about Matsui batting leadoff and Bourn batting second tells me that this is exactly what the Astros skipper plans on doing.

Don't get me wrong, it's not my preferred order, but I like it more than Bourn at seven or eight. As for Coop's logic, I suppose he and Berry believe that Bourn has improved his bat skills enough to put him between Matsui (and his higher OBP) and Berkman's power with the hope that all those AFL and s/t at-bats have equipped him to keep the ball down, hit those fastballs to the left side of the infield, or bunt. Matsui has the speed to be disruptive on the basepaths, so if he gets on base then we can expect Bourn to get pitches he can hit. Can he consistently put them in play? I dunno, but his spring numbers suggest he's improved his ability to avoid the strikeout.


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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2009, 03:29:52 pm »
FUUUUUUCK.

Quote
Tidbits
With the addition of Ivan Rodriguez to the lineup, it's likely he'll hit second, with Michael Bourn moving down to the eight-hole. ... The Astros are 23-24 all-time on Opening Day and 18-16 when they open at home.

I hope Footer has it wrong.

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2009, 03:31:45 pm »
FUUUUUUCK.

I hope Footer has it wrong.

I'd be surprised.  Coop's been leaning this way since the Pudge Facker signing.
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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2009, 03:35:04 pm »
I'd be surprised.  Coop's been leaning this way since the Pudge Facker signing.

I've resigned myself to the fact that as long as Cooper is here, Bourn will not develop.
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JackAstro

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Re: Looks like Coop has made his decision
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2009, 03:40:49 pm »
I'd be surprised.  Coop's been leaning this way since the Pudge Facker signing.

Exactly. What Coop was doing with Bourn in ST before Pudge is not particularly relevant to guessing the batting order right now.
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