Author Topic: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?  (Read 5983 times)

UpTooLate

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I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« on: February 07, 2009, 09:47:01 am »
The "lady" in this story deserves something more than life in prison if proven guilty of the charges.  IMHO.

Warning:  The following link contains graphic accounts of child abuse.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090206/METRO/902060381/&imw=Y

I proceeded to google up some appropriate punishments.  I never knew there were so many ways to ruin a persons day.

http://www.medievality.com/torture.html
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Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 10:01:56 am »
If the mom is lucky the ACLU will get involved, they'll get a shrink to say she has Münchausen by proxy, and she'll be committed to a mental health facility for the criminally insane.
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geezerdonk

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I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 10:40:30 am »
If the mom is lucky the ACLU will get involved, they'll get a shrink to say she has Münchausen by proxy, and she'll be committed to a mental health facility for the criminally insane.

Sounds more like Julia Child syndrome by proxy.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 10:49:48 am »
If the mom is lucky the ACLU will get involved, they'll get a shrink to say she has Münchausen by proxy, and she'll be committed to a mental health facility for the criminally insane.


This isn't even remotely close to Munchausen By Proxy.  MBP is when the parent deliberately makes the child ill in order to get treatment, and attention, for the child.  This mother is obviously mentally ill, but it's not MBP.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 11:04:40 am »
Your right except we don't know all the details. The mother did call it in. But yeah, putting your kid in the oven is a bit different than poisoning the child, I guess. It's all bat-shit crazy.  I was just saying what I said because of my cynicism in regards to justice and insanity. If you can get a shrink to say it and a judge or jury to buy it...
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UpTooLate

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 11:21:51 am »
I was just saying what I said because of my cynicism in regards to justice and insanity. If you can get a shrink to say it and a judge or jury to buy it...

Exactly.  Hinkley shoots a President and gets the insane asylum.  Hinkley deserved harsher punishment.

Having a child in the approximate age of the victim just makes me wonder how anybody could do those things once, let alone, repeatedly.  Life in prison and lethal injection are both too gracious.  The thought of her pulling the "I have mental illness" defense blows this out of the park.  Of course she is mentally ill.  So are a huge percentage of prisoners in non hospital institutions. I just hope there is a special place in hell for those that exact cruelty on children.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 11:37:31 am »
Exactly.  Hinkley shoots a President and gets the insane asylum.  Hinkley deserved harsher punishment.

Having a child in the approximate age of the victim just makes me wonder how anybody could do those things once, let alone, repeatedly.  Life in prison and lethal injection are both too gracious.  The thought of her pulling the "I have mental illness" defense blows this out of the park.  Of course she is mentally ill.  So are a huge percentage of prisoners in non hospital institutions. I just hope there is a special place in hell for those that exact cruelty on children.


Well, like any other enlightened society, we generally don't punish the mentally ill to the same standards as we do the sane.  It's not a new phenonemon and it's not unique to the US.  You may not agree with it, but it's not due to cynicism.  Insanity is also an extrememly rare criminal defense, despite what you might think.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

UpTooLate

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 12:39:46 pm »

Well, like any other enlightened society, we generally don't punish the mentally ill to the same standards as we do the sane.  It's not a new phenonemon and it's not unique to the US.  You may not agree with it, but it's not due to cynicism.  Insanity is also an extrememly rare criminal defense, despite what you might think.

I agree with you on all points made.  However, if such brutality was taken out on one of my loved ones, then all sympathy for the "mentally ill", "mentally challenged", "rough childhood", would go out the fucking window.

This particular case seems to have the promise of a high profile.  I suspect her chances of obtaining a superstar lawyer pro-bono is damn good.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 12:44:38 pm »
I agree with you on all points made.  However, if such brutality was taken out on one of my loved ones, then all sympathy for the "mentally ill", "mentally challenged", "rough childhood", would go out the fucking window.


Which is why we discourage vigilantism.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Limey

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 01:01:37 pm »

Which is why we discourage vigilantism.

...and why the Founding Fathers made this a country of laws, not of men.
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UpTooLate

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 02:07:54 pm »
...and why the Founding Fathers made this a country of laws, not of men.

Point well taken by HH and yourself.  However, I don't think that the Founding Fathers would have been so generous to John Hinkley and that crazy bitch in Clear Lake that drowned her kids.  The list could go on.
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matadorph

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 02:11:21 pm »

Well, like any other enlightened society, we generally don't punish the mentally ill to the same standards as we do the sane.  It's not a new phenonemon and it's not unique to the US.  You may not agree with it, but it's not due to cynicism.  Insanity is also an extrememly rare criminal defense, despite what you might think.

Largely because of the Hinckley case.

Limey

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 05:59:02 pm »
Point well taken by HH and yourself.  However, I don't think that the Founding Fathers would have been so generous to John Hinkley and that crazy bitch in Clear Lake that drowned her kids.  The list could go on.

Making justice about being the rule of law, is so that relative horror of one case to another is held irrelevant in aspect except the sentencing.  Someone crazy enough to drown her own kids deserves greater compassion, rather than greater retribution.  And permanent residence in a hospital for the criminally insane.
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UpTooLate

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 10:52:42 am »
Making justice about being the rule of law, is so that relative horror of one case to another is held irrelevant in aspect except the sentencing.  Someone crazy enough to drown her own kids deserves greater compassion, rather than greater retribution.  And permanent residence in a hospital for the criminally insane.

If I am ever a defendant in a criminal trial (hopefully not), then I want YOU on the jury!  Just don't mention you know me during voir dire.
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Limey

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 12:26:26 pm »
If I am ever a defendant in a criminal trial (hopefully not), then I want YOU on the jury!  Just don't mention you know me during voir dire.

I'm not saying that people should be let go, just that someone who is clearly bat-shit crazy doesn't deserve the worst we can dish out just because they're sick.

In the case of the woman who drowned her kids, she had ever worsening post-partum depression but was continuing to have kids at the insistence of her tone deaf husband.  If there was someone to throw the book at, it was the hubby.
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UpTooLate

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2009, 12:45:41 pm »
I'm not saying that people should be let go, just that someone who is clearly bat-shit crazy doesn't deserve the worst we can dish out just because they're sick.

In the case of the woman who drowned her kids, she had ever worsening post-partum depression but was continuing to have kids at the insistence of her tone deaf husband.  If there was someone to throw the book at, it was the hubby.

Yeah, again I agree, at least on Clear Lake case.  The hubby certainly was not helping matters and they got involved in what some would say to be a cultish church.  I think the shitbag husband got off scott-free as it's not illegal to be a shitbag.

I'm sure that I'm probably projecting much of my own personal angst and lack of confidence in the Houston judicial system into this thread.

Back in 2007 I served as a juror in a murder trial.  Defendant had an excellent attorney by the name of Skip Cornelius and claimed self defense.  The jury split down the middle during deliberation.  I was on the half that said the case had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.  A mistrial is called.  As I'm exiting the courtroom, I bump into the prosecutor and we get into a conversation about the case.  Turns out tons of evidence was thrown out by the judge during pre-trial hearings.  The guy was guilty as shit.  Still bothers me to this day.  Lesson learned:  If you get the silver bracelets, STFU and get a good attorney.
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Limey

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2009, 01:01:42 pm »
Yeah, again I agree, at least on Clear Lake case.  The hubby certainly was not helping matters and they got involved in what some would say to be a cultish church.  I think the shitbag husband got off scott-free as it's not illegal to be a shitbag.

I'm sure that I'm probably projecting much of my own personal angst and lack of confidence in the Houston judicial system into this thread.

Back in 2007 I served as a juror in a murder trial.  Defendant had an excellent attorney by the name of Skip Cornelius and claimed self defense.  The jury split down the middle during deliberation.  I was on the half that said the case had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.  A mistrial is called.  As I'm exiting the courtroom, I bump into the prosecutor and we get into a conversation about the case.  Turns out tons of evidence was thrown out by the judge during pre-trial hearings.  The guy was guilty as shit.  Still bothers me to this day.  Lesson learned:  If you get the silver bracelets, STFU and get a good attorney.

Don't let it bother you.  You called what you saw.  Other people decided what you saw.

The flip side of the coin is things like the slew of terrorism convictions in the UK in the mid-70s, which all turned out to be horribly wrong.  Google the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6 and the Magwire 7.  The worst part is, the "real killers" were left on the loose to kill again and again.  A little judicial cold water on the prosecution's ardour would probably have saved lives.

One of the tenets of English law, on which much of the western world's law is based (except Louisiana, which is Napoleonic), is that it is better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted.  It sucks to let the guilty off the hook, but it sucks more (at least 10 times more, apparently) to put one innocent in jail.
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 08:50:25 am »
Point well taken by HH and yourself.  However, I don't think that the Founding Fathers would have been so generous to John Hinkley and that crazy bitch in Clear Lake that drowned her kids.  The list could go on.

Actually, the legal system the Founding Fathers inherited from the English and passed along to us was the source of the notion that mens rea is an essential element to convicting someone of a crime. I doubt they would be in favor of torturing people who were too insane to understand what they were doing.

Limey

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2009, 09:12:11 am »
Actually, the legal system the Founding Fathers inherited from the English and passed along to us was the source of the notion that mens rea is an essential element to convicting someone of a crime. I doubt they would be in favor of torturing people who were too insane to understand what they were doing.

Thus Arky and I agree on something non-baseball related.  Thus the world will now come to an end.
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chuck

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2009, 10:10:09 am »
Thus Arky and I agree on something non-baseball related.  Thus the world will now come to an end.

I wouldn't get too excited. The idea of not torturing pitiful nutcases who try to baste their four year olds in a 350 degree oven doesn't really strike me as too terribly radical.
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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2009, 10:13:29 am »
Actually, the legal system the Founding Fathers inherited from the English and passed along to us was the source of the notion that mens rea is an essential element to convicting someone of a crime. I doubt they would be in favor of torturing people who were too insane to understand what they were doing.

the legal definition of "insane" in a criminal trial is, i think, not knowing the difference between right and wrong. merely being bat shit crazy does not necessarily get a killer there.
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geezerdonk

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I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2009, 10:31:36 am »
the legal definition of "insane" in a criminal trial is, i think, not knowing the difference between right and wrong. merely being bat shit crazy does not necessarily get a killer there.

In Texas it is a defense to prosecution if, at the time the crime was commited, the criminal, as a result of severe mental disease or defect, did not know that his conduct was wrong. The term “mental disease or defect” does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct. The criminal has the burden of proof.


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Arky Vaughan

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2009, 11:05:24 am »
I wouldn't get too excited. The idea of not torturing pitiful nutcases who try to baste their four year olds in a 350 degree oven doesn't really strike me as too terribly radical.

Hey, in this post-partisan environment, we all have to make concessions.

chuck

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2009, 01:43:14 pm »
Hey, in this post-partisan environment, we all have to make concessions.

Hey, anything to help you out with the onset of your post-partisan depression.
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HudsonHawk

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2009, 02:05:40 pm »
the legal definition of "insane" in a criminal trial is, i think, not knowing the difference between right and wrong. merely being bat shit crazy does not necessarily get a killer there.

Exactly.  Being nuts or even mentally underdeveloped does not necessarily mean one does not know their actions are wrong.  Which is why it's extrememly rare that it's a successful criminal defense. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2009, 02:12:45 pm »
Hey, anything to help you out with the onset of your post-partisan depression.

Thanks for your concern. Perhaps some government-provided mental health care will get me through this, provided I can get an appointment to see somebody before Hillary's first term begins in 2017.

chuck

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2009, 03:11:16 pm »
Thanks for your concern. Perhaps some government-provided mental health care will get me through this, provided I can get an appointment to see somebody before Hillary's first term begins in 2017.

Yeah, you'd better get cracking on filling out the forms because it might take a while.

Of course, in order to get the whole health care swindl- I mean package going they'll need a HHS secretary which means they'll have to find a Democrat who pays his or her taxes so maybe you you can take your time on those forms after all.
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Limey

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2009, 03:20:43 pm »
Yeah, you'd better get cracking on filling out the forms because it might take a while.

Of course, in order to get the whole health care swindl- I mean package going they'll need a HHS secretary which means they'll have to find a Democrat who pays his or her taxes so maybe you you can take your time on those forms after all.

C'mon!  Who hasn't had nearly half a million dollars-worth of chauffeur-driven limo service for free?

Oh, and a bonus, unrelated photo from the same place that just cracked me up.
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chuck

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Re: I am against torture. Can we make an exception for this?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2009, 03:49:28 pm »
C'mon!  Who hasn't had nearly half a million dollars-worth of chauffeur-driven limo service for free?

I guess he had his chauffeur drive him up to Connecticut for Philip Johnson's estate sale to sort through the odds and ends.
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