Joe the Plumber....

[UpTooLate]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14652.html

I feel bad for the guy.  No?

One day you shake hands and speak with a top tier political candidate.  Next day your life is on full display in front of the entire nation.   I suppose when the camera is rolling, you damn sure check your tongue at the door.

On the other hand, McCain/Palin have pulled within two points.  Obama-Land needs to keep the corks in the bottles for a few more days.

ETA:  http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081017131527.2n6g86kl&show_article=1  Is the guy actually starting to sweat?

[Limey]

I love how McCain rips a story from Drudge, runs with it in a debate watched by tens of millions, and then criticises the Obama campaign and the media for fact-checking the story (which turns out to have very little basis in fact).

If McCain was more like this guy, than the crotchty geyser he plays in TV debates, he may have maintained his lead in the first place.  He's better at the funny stuff than Obama.

Note: Network coverage kicked in part way through McCain's turn, and therefore so does this clip.  I saw the first part on MSNBC, and it's good stuff too.  Haven't seen complete clips of either candidates acts.

[Trey]

On the other hand, McCain/Palin have pulled within two points.

Which poll you be lookin' at?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I love how McCain rips a story from Drudge, runs with it in a debate watched by tens of millions, and then criticises the Obama campaign and the media for fact-checking the story (which turns out to have very little basis in fact).

If McCain was more like this guy, than the crotchty geyser he plays in TV debates, he may have maintained his lead in the first place.  He's better at the funny stuff than Obama.

Note: Network coverage kicked in part way through McCain's turn, and therefore so does this clip.  I saw the first part on MSNBC, and it's good stuff too.  Haven't seen complete clips of either candidates acts.

Double-edged sword: More people than you realize are in the same boat as Joe Plumber, i.e. tax lien etc..., with big dreams that are probably not realistic.  I loathe the war of perception, personally, but this story has the potential to resonate with voters just like Obama's "Change" message. 

[juliogotay]

Which poll you be lookin' at?

Gallup had them at 2% yesterday.

[Trey]

Gallup had them at 2% yesterday.

I see 6%, or am I looking at something different: http://www.gallup.com/poll/111211/Gallup-Daily-Obama-49-McCain-43.aspx

ETA: "Traditional likely voters" is 3%

[pravata]

Double-edged sword: More people than you realize are in the same boat as Joe Plumber, i.e. tax lien etc..., with big dreams that are probably not realistic.  I loathe the war of perception, personally, but this story has the potential to resonate with voters just like Obama's "Change" message. 

The guy isn't a real plumber, doesn't pay taxes, and his name isn't really Joe.  Does the McCain campaign vet anything? 

[UpTooLate]

Which poll you be lookin' at?

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/elections/ap_election_wave8_topline_101308.pdf  Go to page 6 on this pdf. file and look at "wave 8".  If election were held today....

ETA:  AP poll

[UpTooLate]

The guy isn't a real plumber, doesn't pay taxes, and his name isn't really Joe.  Does the McCain campaign vet anything? 

Obama goes to church with "God Damn America" for 20 years, has a still unanswered affiliation with Bill Ayers, paid money to Acorn for "lighting and technical" stuff.  Does the Democratic Party vet anything?  Does the Obama camp vet anything?  Better yet, does ANY of the media vampires camped out a Joe's house vet anything listed above?

"Spread the wealth".  He will regret those three words.

[JackAstro]

http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/nws/elections/ap_election_wave8_topline_101308.pdf  Go to page 6 on this pdf. file and look at "wave 8".  If election were held today....

ETA:  AP poll

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/bad-spin-watch-drudge-touts-weeks-old.html

[JackAstro]

Obama goes to church with "God Damn America" for 20 years, has a still unanswered affiliation with Bill Ayers, paid money to Acorn for "lighting and technical" stuff.  Does the Democratic Party vet anything?  Does the Obama camp vet anything?  Better yet, does ANY of the media vampires camped out a Joe's house vet anything listed above?

"Spread the wealth".  He will regret those three words.

No, I have not seen any of those things mentioned by the media.

[pravata]

Obama goes to church with "God Damn America" for 20 years, has a still unanswered affiliation with Bill Ayers, paid money to Acorn for "lighting and technical" stuff.  Does the Democratic Party vet anything?  Does the Obama camp vet anything?  Better yet, does ANY of the media vampires camped out a Joe's house vet anything listed above?

"Spread the wealth".  He will regret those three words.

If you think the questions about Ayers and ACORN are unanswered, you have a hearing problem.  Or a comprehension problem.  From past experience, I'll go with comprehension.  Republicans didn't even bother to call "Joe" to let him know what was coming.  Did you expect the "vampires" not to show up?  Or do you just not want them to?

[pravata]

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/bad-spin-watch-drudge-touts-weeks-old.html

Also, just went to the site, don't see the polls. 

[UpTooLate]

If you think the questions about Ayers and ACORN are unanswered, you have a hearing problem.  Or a comprehension problem.  From past experience, I'll go with comprehension.  Republicans didn't even bother to call "Joe" to let him know what was coming.  Did you expect the "vampires" not to show up?  Or do you just not want them to?

1) A semi respectful - FU
2) I feel bad for the guy.  Joe, Sam...whatever.  He's just a citizen.  See S.P. Rodriguez post.  He about nailed it.
3) They were on him (joe) like flies to shit, but this country is about to give command of a 747 to a student pilot.  Maybe a little attention to Obama's past might be in order?  McCain ain't the reincarnation of God, but he at least has a verifiable track record.  Oh yeah.  Keating.  Yawn.

[Ty in Tampa]

Do we really need another one of these threads?

[Jacksonian]

Do we really need another one of these threads?

Why, whatever do you mean?

BTW, the Palin thread will likely to get CPR this weekend as she ventures onto the set of SNL.

[UpTooLate]

Why, whatever do you mean?

BTW, the Palin thread will likely to get CPR this weekend as she ventures onto the set of SNL.

Heard about that this morning.  If she kills like McCain on comedy show(s), they are up points.  If she chokes....well.  Big gamble IMHO.  Then again, McPalin has been tossing Hail Mary's for the end zone the past couple of weeks and have had an incredible luck percentage on catches.

[Taras Bulba]

Why, whatever do you mean?

BTW, the Palin thread will likely to get CPR this weekend as she ventures onto the set of SNL.

I was hoping it would be quietly locked away in the attic with the crazy aunt and the dog faced boy.

[JackAstro]

3) They were on him (joe) like flies to shit, but this country is about to give command of a 747 to a student pilot.  Maybe a little attention to Obama's past might be in order?  McCain ain't the reincarnation of God, but he at least has a verifiable track record.  Oh yeah.  Keating.  Yawn.

A quick google news search for Ayers and Obama turns up 35,760 articles. Keating and McCain only turns up 8,461. So yes, perhaps someone should start digging. But yeah, Keating, yawn. Because the candidates' associations are critical, except for the ones that you don't think are critical.

Do we really need another one of these threads?

Fuck, no. We've got some perfectly serviceable real estate set aside for this very thing. We should merge, then find efficiencies through right-sizing and whatnot.

[JimR]

the main reason i want the election to get here is so this shit will stop.

[pravata]

1) A semi respectful - FU...

Honestly.  If you don't think Obama answered the charges, you are beyond the powers of any words in the English language.  Besides, what's the point?  Is the McCain strategy to suggest that Obama is secretly planning to infiltrate the Whitehouse with Muslim terrorists who will hatch plots to bring down and bankrupt the US?  If so, he's going to have to hurry because pretty soon there may not be anything to bring down.

[JackAstro]

I was hoping it would be quietly locked away in the attic with the crazy aunt and the dog faced boy.

Hasn't the dog-faced boy suffered enough?

[Jacksonian]

Hasn't the dog-faced boy suffered enough?

Now why would go and bring up ole 3%?

[UpTooLate]

Honestly.  If you don't think Obama answered the charges, you are beyond the powers of any words in the English language.  Besides, what's the point?  Is the McCain strategy to suggest that Obama is secretly planning to infiltrate the Whitehouse with Muslim terrorists who will hatch plots to bring down and bankrupt the US?  If so, he's going to have to hurry because pretty soon there may not be anything to bring down.

Oh, he answered the charges.  I don't know if that is all there is to it.  Just because he say's no big deal, does not mean question answered.

[JackAstro]

Now why would go and bring up ole 3%?

Hurtful. I support that.

[pravata]

Oh, he answered the charges.  I don't know if that is all there is to it.  Just because he say's no big deal, does not mean question answered.

Anything less than admitting he's part of a sleeper cell likely wouldn't be a sufficient answer.  Is that Steve Schmidt's genius strategy?

[UpTooLate]

Anything less than admitting he's part of a sleeper cell likely wouldn't be a sufficient answer.  Is that Steve Schmidt's genius strategy?

Ya' know Prav, I'm just too tired today to go around in circles on this thing here.  I'll let you have the last word on it.

Sorry coach.

[Dobro]

The guy isn't a real plumber, doesn't pay taxes, and his name isn't really Joe.  Does the McCain campaign vet anything? 

Douche Nozzle:

His name is Samuel Joseph.  Some men embrace their middle names and actually use them.  Others attempt to make it a crime to even mention their middle names.

[Bench]

Whether Joe is Joe or really a plumber, I've been nose deep in work for the last several days and am only vaguely aware of this story.

So why is the "Joe the Plumber" character (real or not) who is McCain's cause celebre such a martyr?  Complaining about paying taxes because you make over $250,000 a year seems to me like a pretty good problem to have.

[Lurch]

Whether Joe is Joe or really a plumber, I've been nose deep in work for the last several days and am only vaguely aware of this story.

So why is the "Joe the Plumber" character (real or not) who is McCain's cause celebre such a martyr?  Complaining about paying taxes because you make over $250,000 a year seems to me like a pretty good problem to have.

Those making more than $250,000 a year should not complain about rising taxes?  Is that really what you're saying?

[EasTexAstro]

Whether Joe is Joe or really a plumber, I've been nose deep in work for the last several days and am only vaguely aware of this story.

So why is the "Joe the Plumber" character (real or not) who is McCain's cause celebre such a martyr?  Complaining about paying taxes because you make over $250,000 a year seems to me like a pretty good problem to have.

"Joe the Plumber" was in his yard when Obama decided to make a meet-the-people stop in his neighborhood. He asked Obama why, if he were to invest in a plumbing company and try to expand his business, he should have his taxes increased dramatically. I believe it was more of a question about his tax policies. If someone were to hire a few employees, plumbers for example, and furnish the trucks and equipment, and yes, bring in more revinue while spending more....why should they be punished for "living the American dream" of running a business.

Obama answereed that we should "spread the wealth". Now, he is attacking "Joe the Plumber," and he is attacking McCain for trying to defend the question.

Whoever "Joe the Plumber" is, IMO, doesn't matter. It sounds like a legitimate question and a disturbing answer. No, I am not headed towards that tax-laden milestone anytime soon. I would make more money betting against that ever happening. For Obama to be critical of McCain for "fighting for a plumber" seems very...wrong?...to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqis9mRcWl4

[pravata]

"Joe the Plumber" was in his yard when Obama decided to make a meet-the-people stop in his neighborhood. He asked Obama why, if he were to invest in a plumbing company and try to expand his business, he should have his taxes increased dramatically. I believe it was more of a question about his tax policies. If someone were to hire a few employees, plumbers for example, and furnish the trucks and equipment, and yes, bring in more revinue while spending more....why should they be punished for "living the American dream" of running a business.

Obama answereed that we should "spread the wealth". Now, he is attacking "Joe the Plumber," and he is attacking McCain for trying to defend the question.

Whoever "Joe the Plumber" is, IMO, doesn't matter. It sounds like a legitimate question and a disturbing answer. No, I am not headed towards that tax-laden milestone anytime soon. I would make more money betting against that ever happening. For Obama to be critical of McCain for "fighting for a plumber" seems very...wrong?...to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqis9mRcWl4

99.9999% of all plumbers, even the ones that own their own company, even the owner of the company that "Joe" wants to buy will not pay more taxes if Obama is elected president. In fact, it is very likely they will pay less than if McCain is elected.  It is a legitimate question and if you will listen to Obama's answer, it comes out favoring "Joe".   At least where his present financial situation is concerned.

[juliogotay]

"Joe the Plumber" was in his yard when Obama decided to make a meet-the-people stop in his neighborhood. He asked Obama why, if he were to invest in a plumbing company and try to expand his business, he should have his taxes increased dramatically. I believe it was more of a question about his tax policies. If someone were to hire a few employees, plumbers for example, and furnish the trucks and equipment, and yes, bring in more revinue while spending more....why should they be punished for "living the American dream" of running a business.

Obama answereed that we should "spread the wealth". Now, he is attacking "Joe the Plumber," and he is attacking McCain for trying to defend the question.

Whoever "Joe the Plumber" is, IMO, doesn't matter. It sounds like a legitimate question and a disturbing answer. No, I am not headed towards that tax-laden milestone anytime soon. I would make more money betting against that ever happening. For Obama to be critical of McCain for "fighting for a plumber" seems very...wrong?...to me.








Exactly. It doesn't matter what the guy's name is or what he does. He is irrelevant. What is relevant is O'Bama's answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqis9mRcWl4

[UpTooLate]

Whether Joe is Joe or really a plumber, I've been nose deep in work for the last several days and am only vaguely aware of this story.

So why is the "Joe the Plumber" character (real or not) who is McCain's cause celebre such a martyr?  Complaining about paying taxes because you make over $250,000 a year seems to me like a pretty good problem to have.

Bench.  Long time, hope you're doing well.  

It all came off as Joe embellishing as Joe is not everything he appears to say.  I've watched that video too many times now of the Obama/Joe exchange and I can honestly see it both ways.  Yeah, he sounded like he was something that he wasn't.  He is also an ordinary citizen..  That's the part that bothers me.  This guy's life could be very adversely affected just because he shook hands with a politician at a meet and greet. Damn shame.  I believe we take for granted that our personal lives can be mostly our own business.  Most of us would be horrified to have it all aired out in front of 300 million people without signing on to the deal.

It's about the same deal that happened to Lewinski.  Accept that Joe and Obama didn't hook up.  In hindsight I feel worse for her now than I did then.  Maybe it's a few years under the belt.  Perhaps it's having a taste of what it feels like to have every thing you've ever done wrong put under a microscope.  Very humbling for the uninitiated.  

[austro]

Now, he is attacking "Joe the Plumber," and he is attacking McCain for trying to defend the question.

I must have missed this part. Where is Obama attacking the plumber?

[JackAstro]

It's about the same deal that happened to Lewinski.

I was actually with you up until this part. Asking a question of a candidate and having an affair with the President should come with very, very different expectations of your future notoriety.

[UpTooLate]

I must have missed this part. Where is Obama attacking the plumber?

Obama is keeping his hands clean.  Smart politics.  There are plenty of surrogates to do the dirty work.

[UpTooLate]

I was actually with you up until this part. Asking a question of a candidate and having an affair with the President should come with very, very different expectations of your future notoriety.

Yeah, you're right.  I am simply expressing that in hindsight I feel worse for her now than I did then.  She was a stupid kid.  What 21 or 22?  Shame on the President.  Lewinski was just star struck and paid a heavy price.  My greater point is that most people sit back and say "yeah, screw them, ha, ha" until they get a slice of humble pie.

[austro]

Obama is keeping his hands clean.  Smart politics.  There are plenty of surrogates to do the dirty work.

So you're suggesting that he's directing the press/bloggers to do this? That seems awfully cynical. What would he have to gain? I think it's much more likely that this is just the product of autonomous individuals who mistakenly think they're somehow helping. I agree that it's sad that ordinary citizens who haven't signed up for this kind of scrutiny are nonetheless subjected to it.

[tophfar]

That seems awfully cynical. What would he have to gain?

A distraction from the fact that his answer to question is rather unpalatable to quite a large portion of the nation.

[JackAstro]

So you're suggesting that he's directing the press/bloggers to do this? That seems awfully cynical. What would he have to gain? I think it's much more likely that this is just the product of autonomous individuals who mistakenly think they're somehow helping. I agree that it's sad that ordinary citizens who haven't signed up for this kind of scrutiny are nonetheless subjected to it.

Bingo. Obama doesn't give two shits about "vetting" Joe the Plumber. It's unfortunate that he made the news cycle at all, and I hope he filters right back out of it, lickety fucking split.

[pravata]

So you're suggesting that he's directing the press/bloggers to do this? That seems awfully cynical. What would he have to gain? I think it's much more likely that this is just the product of autonomous individuals who mistakenly think they're somehow helping. I agree that it's sad that ordinary citizens who haven't signed up for this kind of scrutiny are nonetheless subjected to it.

It's not even logical.  John McCain brought the man into the debate to use as a prop.  Everything said in a PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE is checked.  It is naive and frankly rude to put "Joe" in this spot without checking with him.  Although, he seems to be enjoying, and encouraging the attention. 
 
Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, a.k.a."Joe the Plumber," will give an exclusive prime time interview to FOX News' Mike Huckabee Saturday night at 8 p.m. ET. 
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/17/joe-plumber-appear-mike-huckabees-new-fox-news/

[tophfar]

Bingo. Obama doesn't give two shits about "vetting" Joe the Plumber.

Wrong.  The more noise is made to discredit the man, the less attention is paid to the European Socialist answer he gave.  

[tophfar]

Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, a.k.a."Joe the Plumber," will give an exclusive prime time interview to FOX News' Mike Huckabee

God you are so disingenuous.  You can't even put that his middle name is Joseph can you?

[pravata]

Wrong.  The more noise is made to discredit the man, the less attention is paid to the European Socialist answer he gave.  

That's an odd way to phrase it since the current administration seems to be cribbing off of Gordon Brown lately.

[pravata]

God you are so disingenuous.  You can't even put that his middle name is Joseph can you?

That is a news blurb from FOX.

[tophfar]

That's an odd way to phrase it since the current administration seems to be cribbing off of Gordon Brown lately.

What does the current administration have to do with Obama's answer?

[EasTexAstro]

99.9999% of all plumbers, even the ones that own their own company, even the owner of the company that "Joe" wants to buy will not pay more taxes if Obama is elected president. In fact, it is very likely they will pay less than if McCain is elected. 

So "We need to spread the wealth" is the correct answer rather than what you just said?

[Jacksonian]

That's an odd way to phrase it since the current administration seems to be cribbing off of Gordon Brown lately.

I would agree that neither Bush nor McCain are classic conservatives.

[tophfar]

That's an odd way to phrase it since the current administration seems to be cribbing off of Gordon Brown lately.

Republicans cannot abide criticsm, legitimate or not.  That's one of the things that makes them Republicans.  Their response to criticism is not to try to explain or defend, but to deflect and re-direct.  I wish I had a nickel for everytime I heard "oh yeah, well Bill Clinton..." as a response to criticism of GWB, as if Clinton was somehow relevant.

[pravata]

What does the current administration have to do with Obama's answer?

What does "socialism" have to do with the answer?  We have problems that need to be fixed.  One of the biggest right now is the problem with investment banks.  The US is now buying banks.  They got the idea from those Europeans.  In order to fix some of the other problems, we're going to need more money.  One way to get the money is to tax the people who have it.   Or the government could try buying people's mortgages.

[pravata]

So "We need to spread the wealth" is the correct answer rather than what you just said?

It might work better than "trickle down".

[tophfar]

What does "socialism" have to do with the answer?  We have problems that need to be fixed.  One of the biggest right now is the problem with investment banks.  The US is now buying banks.  They got the idea from those Europeans.  In order to fix some of the other problems, we're going to need more money.  One way to get the money is to tax the people who have it.   Or the government could try buying people's mortgages.

Because none of those have to do with "Spreading The Wealth".

[EasTexAstro]

I must have missed this part. Where is Obama attacking the plumber?

Maybe I am sensitive, but when Obama states that McCain is "fighting for the plumber" as a punch line, I would be more able to relate to the person fighting FOR the plumber than the person putting down the plumber.

[pravata]

Maybe I am sensitive, but when Obama states that McCain is "fighting for the plumber" as a punch line, I would be more able to relate to the person fighting FOR the plumber than the person putting down the plumber.

The fact that the plumber's union endorses Obama have any influence on your opinion?

[pravata]

Because none of those have to do with "Spreading The Wealth".

Not to people like Joe, no it doesnt.

[JackAstro]

Wrong.  The more noise is made to discredit the man, the less attention is paid to the European Socialist answer he gave.  

Wrong? How about we just disagree. I tend to think that Obama would rather have attention paid to things other than Joe the Plumber. He benefits from him not being in the discussion at all, and actively discrediting him keeps him in the discussion.

Really, it doesn't matter. Why would Obama care about distracting people who would characterize his answer as "European Socialist"? Those people are not especially likely to be voting for him in the first place.

[tophfar]

Wrong? How about we just disagree. I tend to think that Obama would rather have attention paid to things other than Joe the Plumber. He benefits from him not being in the discussion at all, and actively discrediting him keeps him in the discussion.

Really, it doesn't matter. Why would Obama care about distracting people who would characterize his answer as "European Socialist"? Those people are not especially likely to be voting for him in the first place.

Because there might be quite a number of people out there who are planning on voting for him who might change their minds because of it?

Seriously, do you reall ythink candidates can say whatever they want because the people that are going to vote for him, by definition, are going to do it anyways, and therefore what they say doesn't matter?

Really?

[EasTexAstro]

It might work better than "trickle down".

So you are saying, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"?

[Jacksonian]

It might work better than "trickle down".

I think a case could be made that a kind of "spreading the wealth" is a large part of what got us in this financial mess.  Subprime mortgages targeted at low- and middle-income people/families could be seen as a kind of spreading the wealth.  I'm not knowledgable enough to make that case.  Just enough to ask the question.

[pravata]

Wrong? How about we just disagree. I tend to think that Obama would rather have attention paid to things other than Joe the Plumber. He benefits from him not being in the discussion at all, and actively discrediting him keeps him in the discussion.

Really, it doesn't matter. Why would Obama care about distracting people who would characterize his answer as "European Socialist"? Those people are not especially likely to be voting for him in the first place.

Actually, it's the opposite.  I think it's in Obama's favor to look at how his policies will help the real Joe, The Handyman Who Does Plumbing Work.

[EasTexAstro]

The fact that the plumber's union endorses Obama have any influence on your opinion?

Not really. Do the plumbers support him? I see those differently. It may be with my experiences with unions in the past. Some of them are the best organizations in the USA. Some of them have some disturbing problems. If he is trying to pander to the plumber's unions by putting down someone who wants to own a plumbing business....I guess I get confused at that point, yes.

[pravata]

I think a case could be made that a kind of "spreading the wealth" is a large part of what got us in this financial mess.  Subprime mortgages targeted at low- and middle-income people/families could be seen as a kind of spreading the wealth.  I'm not knowledgable enough to make that case.  Just enough to ask the question.

The problem isnt the mortgages.  It's the securitized debt instruments.   McCain, and I'm trusting they looked into this, offered to put a good dent in the default problem with 300 billion.  The securitized debt, some of which is using the mortgages as collateral, is 62 trillion dollars.  That happened since 2000.  No one is knowlegable enough to understand the problem.  We allowed certain people to fuck around when they didn't know what they were doing.

[EasTexAstro]

Actually, it's the opposite.  I think it's in Obama's favor to look at how his policies will help the real Joe, The Handyman Who Does Plumbing Work.

What about the real Joe, the guy who hires plumbers into his business, provides them with steady work and security, and takes on the risk and paperwork himself? Those small businesses don't matter?

[JackAstro]

Because there might be quite a number of people out there who are planning on voting for him who might change their minds because of it?

Seriously, do you reall ythink candidates can say whatever they want because the people that are going to vote for him, by definition, are going to do it anyways, and therefore what they say doesn't matter?

Really?

No. I think the average person who is engrossed in the Joe the Plumber saga does not read "spread the wealth" as "European Socialist". I think those people are already very comfortably committed to McCain. I therefore think winning undecideds has very little to do with distracting them from that answer by discrediting Joe the Fucking Plumber through a nefarious scheme using the mainstream media as a pawn in Obama's secret cabal.

Seriously, spare me the indignation over my confounding stupidity. Really. There are not legions of Obama supporters who are going to be flipping sides over this. Seriously, really.

[pravata]

Not really. Do the plumbers support him? I see those differently. It may be with my experiences with unions in the past. Some of them are the best organizations in the USA. Some of them have some disturbing problems. If he is trying to pander to the plumber's unions by putting down someone who wants to own a plumbing business....I guess I get confused at that point, yes.

He's not putting down anyone.  He's explaining why his policies would be better for him, Joe, right now.  And for 98% of the people who own small businesses.  Alright, so you dont trust unions either.  So that point can't be made.  For what it's worth, apparently nothing, the union endorsed Obama before McCain decided to elevate Joe to his current notoriety.   

[pravata]

What about the real Joe, the guy who hires plumbers into his business, provides them with steady work and security, and takes on the risk and paperwork himself? Those small businesses don't matter?

They matter a lot (personally I think this fascination with small businesses is over done.  Half of all small business fail within 3 years, I think that creates a lot of chaos in communities.) Obama has plans to help them hire more people and provide health care.  A cost which comes directly to us if it's not addressed.  Anyway these taxes, and it's not a crushing burden, would affect 2% of current sbs.

[tophfar]

The problem isnt the mortgages.  It's the securitized debt instruments.   McCain, and I'm trusting they looked into this, offered to put a good dent in the default problem with 300 billion.  The securitized debt, some of which is using the mortgages as collateral, is 62 trillion dollars.  That happened since 2000.  No one is knowlegable enough to understand the problem.  We allowed certain people to fuck around when they didn't know what they were doing.

No, the problem with spreading the wealth, is that he wasn't talking about the financial crisis.  Unless you think he just suddenly formulated his wells stated tax plan over the last month.

Spreading the wealth has to do with...

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.

Redistributing people's income, in the form of a "tax credit" from people who earned it, to people who did not.

This constant attempt to redirect attention to the current mortgage crisis is a red herring.

[Jacksonian]

The problem isnt the mortgages.  It's the securitized debt instruments.   McCain, and I'm trusting they looked into this, offered to put a good dent in the default problem with 300 billion.  The securitized debt, some of which is using the mortgages as collateral, is 62 trillion dollars.  That happened since 2000.  No one is knowlegable enough to understand the problem.  We allowed certain people to fuck around when they didn't know what they were doing.

My understanding, possibly inadequate but it's what I've got, is that the bad mortgages are the underlying cause of the majority of the problem.  That without the subprime loan program we wouldn't be talking about this because then those debt instruments would either not exist or would be backed by better collateral.  *If* that's the case then the federal government's attempt to use its weight to encourage lenders to "spread the wealth" by getting those who could scant afford a home or simply not afford a home (homeownership is generally considered a better way to personal wealth than renting) backfired as badly as possible.

[pravata]

No. I think the average person who is engrossed in the Joe the Plumber saga does not read "spread the wealth" as "European Socialist". I think those people are already very comfortably committed to McCain. I therefore think winning undecideds has very little to do with distracting them from that answer by discrediting Joe the Fucking Plumber through a nefarious scheme using the mainstream media as a pawn in Obama's secret cabal.

Seriously, spare me the indignation over my confounding stupidity. Really. There are not legions of Obama supporters who are going to be flipping sides over this. Seriously, really.

Also John Oliver on the Daily Show had an illuminating chart detailing the percentage of people who are still undecided.  They are apparently comprised mostly of douche nozzles, paste eaters, and Cub fans. 

[pravata]

My understanding, possibly inadequate but it's what I've got, is that the bad mortgages are the underlying cause of the majority of the problem.  That without the subprime loan program we wouldn't be talking about this because then those debt instruments would either not exist or would be backed by better collateral.  *If* that's the case then the federal government's attempt to use its weight to encourage lenders to "spread the wealth" by getting those who could scant afford a home or simply not afford a home (homeownership is generally considered a better way to personal wealth than renting) backfired as badly as possible.

What happened was the Commodities Futures Modernization Act allowed investment banks to turn just about anything into a commodity.  This they did with bundled mortgages and issued them as loans.  Some of these instruments valued the "collateral" at 40 times the worth of the mortgages.   

[tophfar]

No. I think the average person who is engrossed in the Joe the Plumber saga does not read "spread the wealth" as "European Socialist". I think those people are already very comfortably committed to McCain. I therefore think winning undecideds has very little to do with distracting them from that answer by discrediting Joe the Fucking Plumber through a nefarious scheme using the mainstream media as a pawn in Obama's secret cabal.

Seriously, spare me the indignation over my confounding stupidity. Really. There are not legions of Obama supporters who are going to be flipping sides over this. Seriously, really.

It is not a matter of some nefarious Obama illuminati orchestrating the take down of a individual.  

But if you think Obama wasn't conscious that it was a pretty serious gaffe on his part you are kidding yourself.  Campaigns have been brought down by lesser soundbites.

[pravata]

No, the problem with spreading the wealth, is that he wasn't talking about the financial crisis.  Unless you think he just suddenly formulated his wells stated tax plan over the last month.

Spreading the wealth has to do with...

Redistributing people's income, in the form of a "tax credit" from people who earned it, to people who did not.

This constant attempt to redirect attention to the current mortgage crisis is a red herring.

As for the mortgage issue, the question was asked.  Your problem seems to be that you either don't want taxes at all, or you want them to be "fair" meaning that the single mother of 3, making $14,000 at WalMart should have the same tax responsibilities as the investment banker making 10 million.  Or do you just feel that the poor are cheating you some how?

[pravata]

It is not a matter of some nefarious Obama illuminati orchestrating the take down of a individual.  

But if you think Obama wasn't conscious that it was a pretty serious gaffe on his part you are kidding yourself.  Campaigns have been brought down by lesser soundbites.

Such as the "health" of the mother?

[JackAstro]

The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year.

The Tax Foundation - in the exact same study - estimate McCain's plan at 62 million with no tax liability, or 43%.

[Jacksonian]

As for the mortgage issue, the question was asked.  Your problem seems to be that you either don't want taxes at all, or you want them to be "fair" meaning that the single mother of 3, making $14,000 at WalMart should have the same tax responsibilities as the investment banker making 10 million.  Or do you just feel that the poor are cheating you some how?

Truth is we're already spreading the wealth.  That single mother of 3 would have all her withholding returned to her plus at least ~$2000 she didn't earn thanks to the Child Tax Credit.  Obama would either increase the credits and/or amounts or not but not decrease them.

[JackAstro]

It is not a matter of some nefarious Obama illuminati orchestrating the take down of a individual.

Go back and re-read, but you jumped into a conversation about whether Obama, by way of his surrogates, is actively attempting to discredit Joe the Plumber. I said no, he's not focused on that. You said wrong. So yes, it is a matter of exactly that.

But if you think Obama wasn't conscious that it was a pretty serious gaffe on his part you are kidding yourself.  Campaigns have been brought down by lesser soundbites.

If you think that Obama's campaign can be brought down by that "gaffe", you are kidding yourself. This declarative stuff is easy. Want to put money on it?

[EasTexAstro]

He's not putting down anyone.  He's explaining why his policies would be better for him, Joe, right now.  And for 98% of the people who own small businesses. 

So Obama is saying, through his vast experience of business and unions, he is smarter than Joe, who he has never met or researched. I have read reporters that give advice to baseball players all the time.

Alright, so you dont trust unions either.  So that point can't be made.  For what it's worth, apparently nothing, the union endorsed Obama before McCain decided to elevate Joe to his current notoriety.   

Fine. I get it. If you are in a union, or in a business that has unions or is likely to unionize, you cannot ask a question without prior approval from someone who may or may not represent you. The union leaders are smarter than you. They get you work. They help take care of your benefits. They keep you employed. They stand up for you in your work. It is much different than a small business owner who puts his money on the line. The union leader only have to worry about getting votes.

I risk offending someone that posts here that I highly respect. I could never imagine this poster abusing his position, and I would stand beside that person if I heard someone talk negatively about them. I am not sure all unions have such leadership, though.

Ah, screw it. I work to protect my own interests, too.

[tophfar]

As for the mortgage issue, the question was asked.  Your problem seems to be that you either don't want taxes at all, or you want them to be "fair" meaning that the single mother of 3, making $14,000 at WalMart should have the same tax responsibilities as the investment banker making 10 million.  Or do you just feel that the poor are cheating you some how?

No it was not.  You are the one who brought it into the conversation to try and redefine what the phrase "Spread the Wealth" meant.  Don't try and blame that on someone else.

http://www.spikesnstars.com/forums/index.php?topic=107085.msg237561#msg237561


Once again Red Herring.

As we have already seen, that 14k mother of three already has a negative tax liability.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/12-11-HistoricalTaxRates.pdf

The top 20% (avg income $214k) pay 85% of Federal Income Tax (top 1% pay 37%, top 5% pay 59%, top 10% pay 71%)
The next 20% (avg income $85k) pay 14% of Federal Income Tax
The middle 20% (avg income $58k) pay 5% of Federal Income Tax
The next 20% (avg income $37k) have a 1% negative liability for Federal Income Tax
The bottom 20% (avg income $16k) have a 3% negative liability for Federal Income Tax

Therefore the only way to continue to lessen that tax burden, is to give that person welfare, from the people that are already paying 85% of the taxes already.

Which is socialist.

[BudGirl]

No it was not.  You are the one who brought it into the conversation to try and redefine what the phrase "Spread the Wealth" meant.  Don't try and blame that on someone else.

http://www.spikesnstars.com/forums/index.php?topic=107085.msg237561#msg237561


Once again Red Herring.

As we have already seen, that 14k mother of three already has a negative tax liability.

Therefore the only way to continue to lessen that tax burden, is to give that person welfare, from the people that are already paying 85% of the taxes already.

Which is socialist.

that person is probably on welfare already.  or do you think you could feed four people on $14,000/year?

[pravata]

So Obama is saying, through his vast experience of business and unions, he is smarter than Joe, who he has never met or researched. I have read reporters that give advice to baseball players all the time.

Fine. I get it. If you are in a union, or in a business that has unions or is likely to unionize, you cannot ask a question without prior approval from someone who may or may not represent you. The union leaders are smarter than you. They get you work. They help take care of your benefits. They keep you employed. They stand up for you in your work. It is much different than a small business owner who puts his money on the line. The union leader only have to worry about getting votes.

I risk offending someone that posts here that I highly respect. I could never imagine this poster abusing his position, and I would stand beside that person if I heard someone talk negatively about them. I am not sure all unions have such leadership, though.

Ah, screw it. I work to protect my own interests, too.

Well no one apparently researched Joe, otherwise they wouldn't have brought him up.  Obama was just outlining his policies for small businesses, I don't think he's going to research each business before he implements his policies.  Hopefully they'll do some good.   Yeah, unions are evil, weekends off suck.

[Lurch]

Well no one apparently researched Joe, otherwise they wouldn't have brought him up.  Obama was just outlining his policies for small businesses, I don't think he's going to research each business before he implements his policies.  Hopefully they'll do some good.   Yeah, unions are evil, weekends off suck.

"As does bankruptcy" - GM, Ford and Chrysler

[pravata]

No it was not.  You are the one who brought it into the conversation to try and redefine what the phrase "Spread the Wealth" meant.  Don't try and blame that on someone else.

http://www.spikesnstars.com/forums/index.php?topic=107085.msg237561#msg237561


Once again Red Herring.

As we have already seen, that 14k mother of three already has a negative tax liability.

Therefore the only way to continue to lessen that tax burden, is to give that person welfare, from the people that are already paying 85% of the taxes already.

Which is socialist.

How is that bad.

[tophfar]

Go back and re-read, but you jumped into a conversation about whether Obama, by way of his surrogates, is actively attempting to discredit Joe the Plumber. I said no, he's not focused on that. You said wrong. So yes, it is a matter of exactly that.

If you think that Obama's campaign can be brought down by that "gaffe", you are kidding yourself. This declarative stuff is easy. Want to put money on it?

Your contention was that Obama was completely unconcerned by this.  I said thats naive to think so, and to think that the discrediting of that man is not beneficial to his campaign, and welcomed by Obama is also naive.

Whether it does or not, is not central to the point that the candidates are hyper vigilant to make sure that such things won't.  And the discrediting of Joe goes a long way to help that.

[tophfar]

How is that bad.

How much of your salary do you give to bums on the street?

[pravata]

"As does bankruptcy" - GM, Ford and Chrysler

Oh don't blame that on the workers.  Do you hate American workers?  American car companies have been producing boneheaded cars for years. SUVs, big trucks, are you kidding me? Companies in countries who have social policies that would make you cry have been eating their lunch for years.

[pravata]

How much of your salary do you give to bums on the street?

None.  When's the last time you worked at a soup kitchen?

[Taras Bulba]

None.  When's the last time you worked at a soup kitchen?

When was the last time you saw a grown man naked?

[JackAstro]

Your contention was that Obama was completely unconcerned by this.  I said thats naive to think so, and to think that the discrediting of that man is not beneficial to his campaign, and welcomed by Obama is also naive.

Whether it does or not, is not central to the point that the candidates are hyper vigilant to make sure that such things won't.  And the discrediting of Joe goes a long way to help that.

Meh. We just fundamentally disagree.* It doesn't make me naive, or you paranoid and delusional. I'm off to drink beer, which was purchased by the wealthiest person in the office, and is currently being distributed to bottom 95% of earners. Somebody blow the handout whistle, it's quittin' time!


*a debate angel just got its wings

[pravata]

When was the last time you saw a grown man naked?

I got mirrors.

[JackAstro]

When was the last time you saw a grown man naked?

Dude, don't answer that, it's a trap.

[JackAstro]

I got mirrors.

Dammit.

[pravata]

Dude, don't answer that, it's a trap.

Hang on, I saw it coming, it's why I got this big bag of money with the dollar sign on it.

[Taras Bulba]

Hang on, I saw it coming, it's why I got this big bag of money with the dollar sign on it.

Obama's tax policies would result in Hollywood producing nothing but gladiator movies.  Well, at least 95% of them.  The others would be about Republicans setting forests on fire and killing unicorns or tributes to the Cubs.

You want to live in a country like that?

[EasTexAstro]

Well no one apparently researched Joe, otherwise they wouldn't have brought him up.  Obama was just outlining his policies for small businesses, I don't think he's going to research each business before he implements his policies.  Hopefully they'll do some good.   Yeah, unions are evil, weekends off suck.

I really believe that it was the question and answer that matter, not Joe. He is a distraction.

He can outline his policies for small business. Telling anyone that their hypothetical company earns too much and should give to people who don't earn much is flat out wrong.

There are good and bad to unions. There are good and bad unions. It doesn't matter it is a distraction.

The point is, this statement by Obama sounds like a Marxist belief, strengthening what his detractors have been pointing out. If, in his unprepared statements, he is saying what he believes to the face of a real person, it does not come out well.

You could tell me I am an ogre, or you could just tell me that that other girl in the corner is more my type.

One sounds worse than the other.

[pravata]

I really believe that it was the question and answer that matter, not Joe. He is a distraction.

He can outline his policies for small business. Telling anyone that their hypothetical company earns too much and should give to people who don't earn much is flat out wrong.

There are good and bad to unions. There are good and bad unions. It doesn't matter it is a distraction.

The point is, this statement by Obama sounds like a Marxist belief, strengthening what his detractors have been pointing out. If, in his unprepared statements, he is saying what he believes to the face of a real person, it does not come out well.

You could tell me I am an ogre, or you could just tell me that that other girl in the corner is more my type.

One sounds worse than the other.

What I would like to tell you is that Obama is not going to turn the US into a Marxist state.  That is a distraction. He's not telling anyone they make too much, he's telling the people who have profited by living and working in America, and all of the advantages that provides, that they should invest something back to make the place even better.   As McCain said in the debate, what good is having a nice house if your neighbor's house is abandoned?

[UpTooLate]

Maybe I am sensitive, but when Obama states that McCain is "fighting for the plumber" as a punch line, I would be more able to relate to the person fighting FOR the plumber than the person putting down the plumber.

ETA, when the shitter is down or the floors are flooded, most are very pleased to see the plumber.  I'm with you on this one. 

[UpTooLate]

They matter a lot (personally I think this fascination with small businesses is over done.  Half of all small business fail within 3 years, I think that creates a lot of chaos in communities.) Obama has plans to help them hire more people and provide health care.  A cost which comes directly to us if it's not addressed.  Anyway these taxes, and it's not a crushing burden, would affect 2% of current sbs.

The more I read the above paragraph, the closer the eye's in my avatar come to exploding.  Actually, that would be pretty cool, but not the point.  Fuck small business!! FUCK THEM ALL!!!!! <best Howard Dean scream impression>

[tophfar]

None.  When's the last time you worked at a soup kitchen?

How much of your salary did you pay that soup kitchen to work there?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I therefore think winning undecideds has very little to do with distracting them from that answer by discrediting Joe the Fucking Plumber through a nefarious scheme using the mainstream media as a pawn in Obama's secret cabal.

Me thinkest his surrogates are trying to discredit Joe Plumber. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl97

[MikeyBoy]

Also John Oliver on the Daily Show had an illuminating chart detailing the percentage of people who are still undecided.  They are apparently comprised mostly of douche nozzles, paste eaters, and Cub fans. 

Don't forget about the "frozen lake jumpers", which likely cannibalizes the Cub fan demographic.

[Jacksonian]

What I would like to tell you is that Obama is not going to turn the US into a Marxist state.  That is a distraction. He's not telling anyone they make too much, he's telling the people who have profited by living and working in America, and all of the advantages that provides, that they should invest something back to make the place even better.   As McCain said in the debate, what good is having a nice house if your neighbor's house is abandoned?

This is an interesting word.  Invest implies an end product of productivity leading to improvement.  The other side would say that instead his policies would discourage productivity, akin to the lazy spoiled the child or the trust-fund kid, who would rather do nothing and get what they get for nothing.

Whatever happens with the election both Obama and McCain have pandered and played class-warfare to get votes.  Neither has a reliable track record, and I don't believe either will do more good than harm over the next 4 or 8 years.

[jonbloozy]

Neither has a reliable track record, and I don't believe either will do more good than harm over the next 4 or 8 years.

That's why I'm voting for this guy!

[Jacksonian]

That's why I'm voting for this guy!

I don't think many would go for my policies of pot for every chicken and screaming at the top of my lungs and carrying an appetizer toothpick.

Of course I'd also depose Bud Selig and install a parrot that can only say "go to hell" as commish.  Either the parrot or Limey.  Limey would have to option to say "bugger off" too if he wanted.

[EasTexAstro]

Neither has a reliable track record, and I don't believe either will do more good than harm over the next 4 or 8 years.

I agree. The only thing is, we have a track record for McCain. Obama has little to go by, and most of what he has in his background seems to be taboo to ask about. Go with the enemy you know or the one you don't know?

[EasTexAstro]

What I would like to tell you is that Obama is not going to turn the US into a Marxist state.  That is a distraction. He's not telling anyone they make too much, he's telling the people who have profited by living and working in America, and all of the advantages that provides, that they should invest something back to make the place even better.   As McCain said in the debate, what good is having a nice house if your neighbor's house is abandoned?

I see. We will always disagree. Investing in a company, in employees that are willing to work, in expanding your business for the advancement of yourself, your family, your coworkers and emplyees and their families, and the people all of them do business with and their families....that does nothing to make the place better?

The only way to do that is to find someone who was able to find a way to get ahead and give part of their earnings to someone else?

I HATE the Marxism lable, but wow....that does sound close.

[UpTooLate]

I don't think many would go for my policies of pot for every chicken and screaming at the top of my lungs and carrying an appetizer toothpick.

Of course I'd also depose Bud Selig and install a parrot that can only say "go to hell" as commish.  Either the parrot or Limey.  Limey would have to option to say "bugger off" too if he wanted.

If you don't let Limey use "wanker" in addition to the "bugger off", then you have to install the parrot.

[BudGirl]

When was the last time you saw a grown man naked?

none of your business.

[Jacksonian]

I agree. The only thing is, we have a track record for McCain. Obama has little to go by, and most of what he has in his background seems to be taboo to ask about. Go with the enemy you know or the one you don't know?

Yes, Obama hasn't much of a record, esp for someone seeking the highest office in the land.  That bothers me greatly.  Obama strikes me as someone who wants to impose his view of what the world should look like on everyone, whether they like it or not.

But, McCain's record and rhetoric, IMO, are all over the map.  I cannot see his vision in his record and rhetoric.  He strikes me as wanting to be President just to be President.  Very Bush I.

[otterjb]

FUCKING A MOTHERFUCKERS!

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?

FUCKING A. AND SHIT. AND STUFF.

[Limey]

If you don't let Limey use "wanker" in addition to the "bugger off", then you have to install the parrot.

Bugger off you wankers!

[Limey]

none of your business.

You saw Borat?

[Limey]

Joe the Plumber not making much headway in the polls.

[Gizzmonic]

When was the last time you saw a grown man naked?

Joe the Plumber. Color, 1983. Ron Jeremy, Nina Hartley. Joe the Plumber visits a "lady's" "house" to help"fix" her "plumbing".  XXX (nudity, explicit sexual situations, mild alcohol references). Running time: 65 minutes.  ⋆⋆

[Trey]

Joe the Plumber. Color, 1983. Ron Jeremy, Nina Hartley. Joe the Plumber visits a "lady's" "house" to help"fix" her "plumbing".  XXX (nudity, explicit sexual situations, mild alcohol references). Running time: 65 minutes.  ⋆⋆

"mild alcohol references" in a porno plot summary = the funny

[Rebel Jew]

Joe the Plumber. Color, 1983. Ron Jeremy, Nina Hartley. Joe the Plumber visits a "lady's" "house" to help"fix" her "plumbing".  XXX (nudity, explicit sexual situations, mild alcohol references). Running time: 65 minutes.  ⋆⋆

You can imagine where it goes from here.

[Ty in Tampa]

Running time: 65 minutes.

Max.

[MusicMan]

Max.

I recall seeing an interview with the company that provides most hotel PPV movies, where they stated that the average viewing time for their films was 3 minutes.

[Gizzmonic]

I recall seeing an interview with the company that provides most hotel PPV movies, where they stated that the average viewing time for their films was 3 minutes.

OK, we're getting into a whole weird area here, but since you brought it up first...

You know how you can order PPV over your cable box?  Well, whenever you order a movie, it's not only sent not only to your cable box, but every single cable box that shares the same loop (approximately 500 boxes or so).  This is usually not a big deal as your cable company-provided cable box will dutifully ignore any PPV coming over the wire that you didn't order.

But...if you have a newer TV with "QAM" (digital cable-ready) you can plug the cable directly into the TV, do the channel search and-surprise, surprise!  You can see your neighbor's PPVs, even if they haven't ordered just and they're just scrolling through the menus.  You can't control if they stop, pause, rewind or FF so you're at their mercy, which is kinda neat in and of itself.  Anyway, my buddy and I figured this out in early 2007, when Houston was still Time Warner territory, and we enjoyed "eavesdropping" on neighbors' PPV that way.  Saw a lot of Entourage episodes and many movies in HD for free (There is no personal information transmitted, so it's not like we could tell who was ordering them). 

One day my friend was half-way watching Mission Impossible 3 on "Neighborvision"  when the movie paused and flipped over to an adult film...for about 5 minutes, then went back to MI:3.  Mildly disconcerting!  Then Comcast came in and changed all the PPV stuff around, and I don't think that works anymore.  I myself moved back to Time Warner country but I haven't tried the trick in my new location.

[pravata]

"mild alcohol references" in a porno plot summary = the funny

"You can imagine what comes next."
"He fixes the plumbing?"

[drew corleone]

Don't be fatuous, Pravata.

[Trey]

Don't be fatuous, Pravata.

Vagina?  I mean, you know the guy?

[homer]

"You can imagine what comes next."
"He fixes the plumbing?"

If by fixing the plumbing you mean laying some pipe, then yes.

[pravata]

Vagina?  I mean, you know the guy?

He's a good man, and thorough.

[Outlawscotty]

I see. We will always disagree. Investing in a company, in employees that are willing to work, in expanding your business for the advancement of yourself, your family, your coworkers and emplyees and their families, and the people all of them do business with and their families....that does nothing to make the place better?

The only way to do that is to find someone who was able to find a way to get ahead and give part of their earnings to someone else?

I HATE the Marxism lable, but wow....that does sound close.

Stymie your dreams or pay yet higher taxes.  It’s a disincentive to strive for more don’t you know.  To tell JTP that he needs to spread the wealth for the betterment of everyone is a fucking slap in the face, and probably makes him think twice about starting his own business.  Oh, wait, he gets $3000 for each employee he hires though. 

[MusicMan]

Stymie your dreams or pay yet higher taxes.  It’s a disincentive to strive for more don’t you know.  To tell JTP that he needs to spread the wealth for the betterment of everyone is a fucking slap in the face, and probably makes him think twice about starting his own business.  Oh, wait, he gets $3000 for each employee he hires though. 

I agree.  In the 90's, the 39.6% marginal tax rate was an absolute disincentive to entrepreneurship.  Start-ups were completely unnheard of during that time, because everyone felt slapped in the face.

[Bench]

I agree.  In the 90's, the 39.6% marginal tax rate was an absolute disincentive to entrepreneurship.  Start-ups were completely unnheard of during that time, because everyone felt slapped in the face.

I don't want an income if I have to pay income taxes.  It's not fair!

[Billy Zabka]

Anyone else in a "battleground" state and get to see the "I am Joe the Plumber" commercials?  Still running them tonight during the World Series.  Really, they are just kind of weird.  A bunch of people repeating "I am Joe the Plumber."

[Limey]

Anyone else in a "battleground" state and get to see the "I am Joe the Plumber" commercials?  Still running them tonight during the World Series.  Really, they are just kind of weird.  A bunch of people repeating "I am Joe the Plumber."

Bill Maher (I, know, I know) said of Joe that we don't know much about him except that he's very conservative, very outspoken and we're not sure about the plumbing...he's Ann Coulter?

[Billy Zabka]

Joe the Plumber is getting a record deal. 

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/15072.html

[BatGirl]

well, it's about time
think he's taking suggestions on album titles?

[Gizzmonic]

well, it's about time
think he's taking suggestions on album titles?

"Circling the Drain"

[Limey]

well, it's about time
think he's taking suggestions on album titles?

"Momma, Don't Let Your Sons Grow Up to be Plumbers"

[BUWebguy]

well, it's about time
think he's taking suggestions on album titles?

He could cover Weird Al's Milli Vanilli parody/medley of "Don't Forget My Plumber" and "Blame it on the Drain".

[Limey]

He could cover Weird Al's Milli Vanilli parody/medley of "Don't Forget My Plumber" and "Blame it on the Drain".

Presumably he's working on the record deal, because why else would he leave John McCain on stage with nothing but his dick in his hands?

[BatGirl]

Presumably he's working on the record deal, because why else would he leave John McCain on stage with nothing but his dick in his hands?

what a snake in the pipegrass, that joe
he's no doubt spending time with this guy
hope mccain told him to go flush himself

[Limey]

what a snake in the pipegrass, that joe
he's no doubt spending time with this guy
hope mccain told him to go flush himself

Joe the Plumber has a publicist.  I'll just let that sit for a while.

[BatGirl]

Joe the Plumber has a publicist.  I'll just let that sit for a while.

i've glimpsed his future
and all i can say is - go back

[jonbloozy]

i've glimpsed his future
and all i can say is - go back

Exactly.

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