What if?

[MusicMan]

Slow Friday topic:

Historians sometimes refer to the "counterfactual", which is fancy historian-speak for playing "what if?"  You know, little things like "What if the US had invaded Japan instead of dropping the bomb?", or things like that.

So for today - please describe your biggest Astros "what if", and how the change would have played out.

Mine:
WHAT IF Andy Pettitte were not injured in 2004?
- The Astros almost surely beat the Cardinals - this is what happens when you replace Munro with AP.
- The Astros' starting pitching gives the Red Sox a much tougher time.  Do they win the Series?  I'm not going to say for sure, but it was no sweep.
- Following the franchise's first WS appearance, Drayton does not have the stomach to push Hunsicker out.
- Hun tells Drayton up front that it is highly unlikely that they will sign Beltran.
- Hun pushes for Biggio to take a bench role, thus negating the chase for 3000.
- Astros make back-to-back WS appearances in 2005, thus earning Garner a much longer leash.
- Ultimately, the franchise is still left prospect-poor by 2008, and I don't think the current state is TOO different; but the past few years might have been very different.

[Noe]

What if:

• Larry Dierker was not the manager of the 1998 Houston Astros
• Daryl Kile were not so upset from the arbitration hearing that he stayed in Houston for his entire career (short and tragic as it were)
• The Astros never went to arbitration with Daryl Kile
• Jeff Bagwell's shoulder did not give out in 2001 and thus he would be ready to play in the 2005 World Series
• Craig Biggio were not able to come back from knee injury, how different would his career be seen right now and of course how different of a team would Houston had been after him
• What if Walt Weiss never signed to play with the Atlanta Braves and stayed in Oakland
• What if Moises Alou were not to slip from a treadmill (yeah, right), how different of a team would Houston had been in 1999, 2000 and 2001
• Jim Edmonds dives and does not come up with the play of the series against Brad Ausmus in game seven in the 2004 NLCS

[Taras Bulba]

J.R. Richard.  Oh, boy, what if.

[hostros7]

What if:

• What if Walt Weiss never signed to play with the Atlanta Braves and stayed in Oakland
• Jim Edmonds dives and does not come up with the play of the series against Brad Ausmus in game seven in the 2004 NLCS

This makes a nice segway into the Friday afternoon beer thread.

[MRaup]

This makes a nice segway into the Friday afternoon beer thread.

And/or the players you would like to see tumble in to a bottomless pit list.

[Noe]

And/or the players you would like to see tumble in to a bottomless pit list.

• Pete Rose
• Gary Maddox
• Lenny Dykstra
• Fred Brocklander (umpire wing of said bottomless pit)
• Kevin Brown

[MusicMan]

I pushed Eric Gregg into the bottomless pit, but he blocked it for everyone else.

[mihoba]

I pushed Eric Gregg into the bottomless pit, but he blocked it for everyone else.

Easy fix, throw a cheeseburger into the hole.

[homer]

What if:

• Jeff Bagwell's shoulder did not give out in 2001 and thus he would be ready to play in the 2005 World Series
• Craig Biggio were not able to come back from knee injury, how different would his career be seen right now and of course how different of a team would Houston had been after him

What if Craig doesn't get injured and finishes the chase for 3000 in 2005 or 2006. Then the Chris Burke disaster in center probably never happens.

What if... the 1994 season isn't shortened and Jeff Bagwell completes (one of) the greatest offensive season ever.

What if... AP and DoucheQueen re-sign and the Jason Jennings trade doesn't have to happen. I miss Willy T the most...

[JackAstro]

What if Dave Smith hadn't walked Carter and Strawberry when he came on in the 9th in Game 6 in 1986? Or not allowed 2 runs in the 9th in Game 3? 'Stros win one of those games, Scott takes Game 7, and maybe they beat the Sox. Though I should make clear that I don't blame Dave Smith for that series, just playing along.

[Jacksonian]

What if Cedeno doesn't bust his ankle in the '80 NLCS?

[Jacksonian]

I pushed Eric Gregg into the bottomless pit, but he blocked it for everyone else.

George Lucas is way ahead of you.

[Andyzipp]

What if Spec Richardson never becomes the GM for the Houston Astros?
What if Bruce Bochy holds on to that damn ball?
What if Nolan Ryan doesn't blow a pennant-clinching game with a 3 run lead?

[Gizzmonic]

What if Gerry Hunsicker and Drayton McLAne decide to blow the team up after a disappointing start to '04?
What if Tim Purpura and Drayton McLane decide to blow the team up after a dismal start in '05?
What if the Astros swept the Bravos to close out the season in '06?

[Limey]

WHAT IF Andy Pettitte were not injured in 2004?
- The Astros almost surely beat the Cardinals - this is what happens when you replace Munro with AP.

I know this is all hypothetical, but the Astros had the lead after Munro left Game #6.  If that had been nailed down, then it doesn't matter that it was Munro instead of AP pitching.  FWIW, the Astros couldn't have performed worse that the Jakes against the Sox - the Sox committed something like 8 errors in the first two games and won them both - but I'm not sure they win the series if they get there.

[Limey]

This makes a nice segway into the Friday afternoon beer thread.

Bollocks!  Those are "straight to tequila" moments.

[Limey]

• Pete Rose
• Gary Maddox
• Lenny Dykstra
• Fred Brocklander (umpire wing of said bottomless pit)
• Kevin Brown

Chipper Jones
Albert Pooholes
Fernando Vina
Brian Jordan
Tony La Russa (managerial wing)
Javy Lopez
Greg Maddox
Tom Glavine
Fuck it!  Every Bravo ever.

[Ty in Tampa]

Bollocks!  Those are "straight to tequila" moments.

I picked a bad Friday to stop sniffing glue.

[Limey]

I picked a bad Friday to stop sniffing glue.

My advice to you, is to start drinking heavily.

[Noe]

My advice to you, is to start drinking heavily.

Listen to him, he's in pre-med.

[Taras Bulba]

If the US had invaded Japan, my old man would have probably knocked off Matsui's grandfather or vice versa and Loretta would be playing second steadily and/or my mom would have married a shipping magnate and this whole fucking season would still probably be fucked up but I would be drinking a shit load of goddamn good scotch right now instead of sitting here at my goddamn office this afternoon.  Goddamn it all to hell.

[Limey]

If the US had invaded Japan...

Deep-fried sushi with cheese.

[Gizzmonic]

This might be the most depressing thread to grace SnS in a long time.

[5+7]

What if... the 1994 season isn't shortened and Jeff Bagwell completes (one of) the greatest offensive season ever.

The strike didn't end Bagwell's season in 1994, a broken hand 2 days before the strike did.

[mihoba]

The strike didn't end Bagwell's season in 1994, a broken hand 2 days before the strike did.

Did you miss the "and" in homer's post? Do you seriously think we didn't know that?

[Jacksonian]

Listen to him, he's in pre-med.

No.  He's fully medicated.

[MusicMan]

Did you miss the "and" in homer's post? Do you seriously think we didn't know that?

Who is this Bagwell guy?

[BUWebguy]

Who is this Bagwell guy?

Third baseman. Shoots balls to first out of his tailpipe. Quite the show!

[juliogotay]

J.R. Richard.  Oh, boy, what if.

1980 was the WS that got away. I am confident the Astros defeat both the Phils and then the Royals to win the Series with a healthy J.R.

[juliogotay]

What if Cedeno doesn't bust his ankle in the '80 NLCS?

I don't remember CC being that big a factor by 1980. Platooned at 1B if I remember correctly.

[Jacksonian]

I don't remember CC being that big a factor by 1980. Platooned at 1B if I remember correctly.

Nope.  500ab.  Hit over .300.  Played CF and hit in the middle of the order.

Wasn't it that injury that hastened the demise of his career?

[Ron Brand]

Wasn't it that injury that hastened the demise of his career?

Well, that and the indifferent conditioning. And that small domestic problem.

[ValpoCory]

What if Roy Oswalt hadn't disrespected the baseball gods:

 Oswalt said. “The first month I got off on the wrong foot. It might have been a little bit lingering of throwing so many innings in years past and might have been going through a dead-arm period. But I’m better now.”

“Any time somebody’s struggling, it’s always something. It can’t be just baseball.”


Now Roy, listen to Bidge.  Sometimes, it's just baseball.  OK, maybe it's more bad luck.

[drew corleone]

Chipper Jones
Albert Pooholes
Fernando Vina
Brian Jordan
Tony La Russa (managerial wing)
Javy Lopez
Greg Maddox
Tom Glavine
Fuck it!  Every Bravo ever.

Including Walt Weiss, which brings us to another "what if..."

[Andyzipp]

What if Roy Oswalt hadn't disrespected the baseball gods:

 Oswalt said. “The first month I got off on the wrong foot. It might have been a little bit lingering of throwing so many innings in years past and might have been going through a dead-arm period. But I’m better now.”

“Any time somebody’s struggling, it’s always something. It can’t be just baseball.”


Now Roy, listen to Bidge.  Sometimes, it's just baseball.  OK, maybe it's more bad luck.

This wasn't Roy's fault.  Anyone heard from Jose Cruz III lately?

[Limey]

Including Walt Weiss, which brings us to another "what if..."

Like "What if I gave you a punch up the bracket for mentioned Walt Weiss?"

[drew corleone]

Like "What if I gave you a punch up the bracket for mentioned Walt Weiss?"

It'd be a lot less painful than him snaring that screamer.

[SteveJRogers]

What if Lidge hadn't given up the Game 5 walk off to Pulholes?

What if the Astros had won the 80 NLCS?

What if J.R. was pitching that postseason?

What if the Astros had won the 86 NLCS?

What if the Astros had won the Randy Johnson sweepstakes in the offseason of 1998-1999?

What if Joe Morgan had not been traded to the Reds?

[cougar]

Listen to him, he's in pre-med.

I thought he was pre-law.

-What if Dickie Thon didn't take a fastball to the face?

J.R. Richard is still my personal biggest "What if?" though.  The man could have and should have been dominant for at least another decade.

[Towlie]

Deep-fried sushi with cheese.

lol

[Andyzipp]

What if Lidge hadn't given up the Game 5 walk off to Pulholes?

Astros were the home team in that game, so there was no walk off, And seeing as that home run changed nothing about the outcome of the series, who cares?

[Astroholic]

Astros were the home team in that game, so there was no walk off, And seeing as that home run changed nothing about the outcome of the series, who cares?

It changed the pitching rotation for the WS.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

What if Don Sutton doesn't get knee capped by cocksucker Jerry Reuss?
What if Nolan Ryan's stRanger career plays out in an Astros uni?
What if Carlos Hernandez goes back to second feet first?
What if MLB had a dynamic drug testing policy, including PED in place starting about 1986?
What if Bagwell learned how to throw with his left hand?

[SteveJRogers]

Astros were the home team in that game, so there was no walk off, And seeing as that home run changed nothing about the outcome of the series, who cares?

Oops.

I was also referring to the fact that it also messed up Lidge for the next couple of years.

[subnuclear]

Oops.

I was also referring to the fact that it also messed up Lidge for the next couple of years.

I would suggest stop posting on this website for a long time if you believe that.

[MRaup]

Oops.

I was also referring to the fact that it also messed up Lidge for the next couple of years.

Everything else you've written so far is mildly annoying but tolerable, but this mouth-breathing talk radio bullshit is completely over the line.

[SteveJRogers]

Everything else you've written so far is mildly annoying but tolerable, but this mouth-breathing out of market talk radio bullshit is completely over the line.

Fixed.

[Craig]

Fixed.

Being out-of-market doesn't make bullshit more tolerable. It just makes it louder and smellier.

And believe me, I'm an expert on producing out-of-market gases.

[SteveJRogers]

What if the Astros were still in the Astrodome?

Could have changed a few of those series around, even the 2005 World Series.

[SteveJRogers]

Or course conversely, what if a Minute Maid Park was done earlier, like say 1994? 

Yes it is illogical, or to paraphrase Bette Davis in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane" "But they were, they were still in the Dome" but if a question can be asked about still being in The Dome, a question can be asked about being in the Juice Box earlier as well.

[OregonStrosFan]

What if Bagwell learned how to throw with his left hand?

Speaking of which, thought I heard during the game last night that Santana learned how to throw right handed as a kid so that he'd be able to play shortstop.  Knew he'd grown up playing a lot of shortstop, but had never really thought about the 'mechanics' of it before...

[mihoba]

Or course conversely, what if a Minute Maid Park was done earlier, like say 1994? 

Yes it is illogical, or to paraphrase Bette Davis in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane" "But they were, they were still in the Dome" but if a question can be asked about still being in The Dome, a question can be asked about being in the Juice Box earlier as well.

Maybe you should do some research on stadium advantage before spouting idiotic nicks some idiots in the media use.

[JimR]

Oops.

I was also referring to the fact that it also messed up Lidge for the next couple of years.

stupid, stupid, stupid

[Bench]

Or course conversely, what if a Minute Maid Park was done earlier, like say 1994? 

Yes it is illogical, or to paraphrase Bette Davis in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane" "But they were, they were still in the Dome" but if a question can be asked about still being in The Dome, a question can be asked about being in the Juice Box earlier as well.

Do not ever "paraphrase" Bette. Quote her directly.

[Mr. Happy]

Or course conversely, what if a Minute Maid Park was done earlier, like say 1994? 

Yes it is illogical, or to paraphrase Bette Davis in "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane" "But they were, they were still in the Dome" but if a question can be asked about still being in The Dome, a question can be asked about being in the Juice Box earlier as well.

And if my uncle had tits he'd be my aunt.

[MusicMan]

It changed the pitching rotation for the WS.

As though pitching was the problem in the WS.

[Noe]

As though pitching was the problem in the WS.

"Yeah!" - Morgan Ensberg

[MikeyBoy]

As though pitching was the problem in the WS.

Pitching wasn't the only problem, but it was a problem.

[Andyzipp]

Pitching wasn't the only problem, but it was a problem.

Clemens (and his loser limp) was a problem.

Oswalt had an Oswalt inning.

Pettitte and Backe were solid.  Hell, Brandon Backe still has a job because of the way he pitched in that game.

But Oswalt going in game 1 wouldn't have changed things IMO.

Brad Lidge not becoming a pinball machine was a bigger problem.

[MikeyBoy]

Clemens (and his loser limp) was a problem.

Oswalt had an Oswalt inning.

Pettitte and Backe were solid.  Hell, Brandon Backe still has a job because of the way he pitched in that game.

But Oswalt going in game 1 wouldn't have changed things IMO.

Brad Lidge not becoming a pinball machine was a bigger problem.

I agree regarding the pitching rotation.

The Astros rode Clemens, Pettitte, Oswalt and Lidge to the playoffs, three of those four struggled in the World Series. Ensberg was terrible in the World Series, but he had been ineffective since the mid September hand injury. I didn't think the offense minus Ensberg performed much differently in the WS than they did in the regular season.

[Astroholic]

I agree regarding the pitching rotation.

The Astros rode Clemens, Pettitte, Oswalt and Lidge to the playoffs, three of those four struggled in the World Series. Ensberg was terrible in the World Series, but he had been ineffective since the mid September hand injury. I didn't think the offense minus Ensberg performed much differently in the WS than they did in the regular season.

I personally think that I would have had Clank in over Morgan in the WS.  Morgan was changing his stance every time he came to the plate.  Lost.

Spilled milk at this point.

[JimR]

Pitching wasn't the only problem, but it was a problem.

not hardly

[Mr. Happy]

not hardly

Agreed. You wonder if these people even watched the games. We didn't hit dick. That's why we got swept.

[MusicMan]

The pitching rotation left 7 runners on base in the 9th, 10th, and 11th of game 3.

[MikeyBoy]

Agreed. You wonder if these people even watched the games. We didn't hit dick. That's why we got swept.

These people? It's just me, you can use my username. The offense would have needed to score 6, 6 and 8 runs in the first three games to win. The same offense that scored 4.25 runs per game during the regular season and 3.66 runs in the NLCS. I agree the offense was shit, especially with RISP, but I expected a better performance out of the pitching based on the previous four months.

[Rebel Jew]

These people? It's just me, you can use my username. The offense would have needed to score 6, 6 and 8 runs in the first three games to win. The same offense that scored 4.25 runs per game during the regular season and 3.66 runs in the NLCS. I agree the offense was shit, especially with RISP, but I expected a better performance out of the pitching based on the previous four months.

ensberg went into the tank over the last month+ of the season and the playoffs.  once that happened, you had berkman and cross your fingers that lane or lamb comes through.  mo berg was 0 for 6 in the 18-inning game, 2 for 18 (!) in the world series.

[Limey]

ensberg went into the tank over the last month+ of the season and the playoffs.  once that happened, you had berkman and cross your fingers that lane or lamb comes through.  mo berg was 0 for 6 in the 18-inning game, 2 for 18 (!) in the world series.

...and they walked Berkman every chance they got, because Iceberg was sucking wind right behind him.

[Bloony]

These people? It's just me, you can use my username. The offense would have needed to score 6, 6 and 8 runs in the first three games to win. The same offense that scored 4.25 runs per game during the regular season and 3.66 runs in the NLCS. I agree the offense was shit, especially with RISP, but I expected a better performance out of the pitching based on the previous four months.

Not just you, I agree with you.

[JimR]

Not just you, I agree with you.

poor Mikey

[MikeyBoy]

Not just you, I agree with you.

Gee, thanks.

[Bloony]

The Qualls grand slam and the Oswalt 5-run inning were pretty huge. I don't think you can put it all on the hitting.

[MRaup]

The Qualls grand slam and the Oswalt 5-run inning were pretty huge. I don't think you can put it all on the hitting.

Which spot in the lineup was to blame?

Centerfield? Catcher? 4th Outfielder?

[BudGirl]

Which spot in the lineup was to blame?

Centerfield? Catcher? 4th Outfielder?

Ausmus.  It is always Ausmus' fault.

[MusicMan]

Which spot in the lineup was to blame?

Centerfield? Catcher? 4th Outfielder?

DH.

[Ron Brand]

Too bad Smoak wasn't a catcher.

[MusicMan]

Too bad Smoak wasn't a catcher.

Why let things like reality interfere with your draft?

[Bloony]

Which spot in the lineup was to blame?

Centerfield? Catcher? 4th Outfielder?

Nice! You really got me there.

(We're talking about whether the pitching in the '05 WS was "a problem", among others, leading to the sweep.)

[Mr. Happy]

The pitching gave up 20 runs; the offense only scored 14, with only 29 measly hits in 42 innings. We could have gotten by with the pitching we had if the offense had been up to snuff.

[Bloony]

The pitching gave up 20 runs; the offense only scored 14, with only 29 measly hits in 42 innings. We could have gotten by with the pitching we had if the offense had been up to snuff.

Agreed.

[Desperado]

Going back to the first post...

WHAT IF Andy Pettitte were not injured in 2004?

I just remembered that Wade Miller broke himself that year...I had completely erased that from my mind.