Shutout for Volquez

[austro]

Reds beat the Cubs 9-0, Volquez pitches 7 scoreless, and his ERA is now 1-something. Has anybody here seen him pitch yet? What does he throw?

[MusicMan]

I just love that Dusty left him in for 7 IP / 119 pitches with a 9 run lead.

[Andyzipp]

I just love that Dusty left him in for 7 IP / 119 pitches with a 9 run lead.

If he wasn't laboring, what's the problem?

[JimR]

I just love that Dusty left him in for 7 IP / 119 pitches with a 9 run lead.

that's not so awful, imo.

[MusicMan]

With such a young pitcher, I'd spare the early season workload if I could.

[mihoba]

I just love that Dusty left him in for 7 IP / 119 pitches with a 9 run lead.

Screw that, Joey Votto scored 25 points for me in the SnS war league! Three dingers, a walk, and a SB.

[Duke]

Votto had 3 of the 7 HRs the Reds hit against the baby bears.

[JimR]

With such a young pitcher, I'd spare the early season workload if I could.

not i. pitchers need to pitch. babying them in the minors is what causes problems, not pitching.

[Noe]

Reds beat the Cubs 9-0, Volquez pitches 7 scoreless, and his ERA is now 1-something. Has anybody here seen him pitch yet? What does he throw?

Saw him pitch in the minors against the Corpus Christi Hooks (when he was in the Rangers organization).  Edison (I think that is his first name or Edson) is kind of lanky tall, throws straight over the top and has a fastball that travels on a downward plane and that just bores in on you.  He is the typical fastball/slider/changeup pitcher but he throws hard and it's mostly in a downward plane.  When he's on, he has the no-hit type of stuff from what I could see.  His changeup in AA was already coming around, so that pitch is perhaps his best pitch other than the fastball.  His problem, from what I could gather from Ranger reports, has been confidence.  If he's strutting like a peacock, the kid is hard to beat.  When he gets a few knocks against him and the pressure is on, he tends to overthrow and meltdown.

Like with all young talented pitchers, it's all about the mental at this point in their development.

[Mr. Happy]

not i. pitchers need to pitch. babying them in the minors is what causes problems, not pitching.

Eggzactly. 119 pitches is supposed to be that much different from the sacred 100 pitch mark? Hardly. Pitch counts are the reason for the 12 and 13 man pitching staffs.

[MusicMan]

not i. pitchers need to pitch. babying them in the minors is what causes problems, not pitching.

I think this is entirely possible - but the fact is, he's been treated how he's been treated.  So why ractchet that up quickly in a needless situation?

[JimR]

Saw him pitch in the minors against the Corpus Christi Hooks (when he was in the Rangers organization).  Edison (I think that is his first name or Edson) is kind of lanky tall, throws straight over the top and has a fastball that travels on a downward plane and that just bores in on you.  He is the typical fastball/slider/changeup pitcher but he throws hard and it's mostly in a downward plane.  When he's on, he has the no-hit type of stuff from what I could see.  His changeup in AA was already coming around, so that pitch is perhaps his best pitch other than the fastball.  His problem, from what I could gather from Ranger reports, has been confidence.  If he's strutting like a peacock, the kid is hard to beat.  When he gets a few knocks against him and the pressure is on, he tends to overthrow and meltdown.

Like with all young talented pitchers, it's all about the mental at this point in their development.

so, the Rangers traded: Young, Danks and Volquez. man, oh man.

[MusicMan]

Like with all young talented pitchers, it's all about the mental at this point in their development.

"Bullshit" - T. Redding

[MusicMan]

so, the Rangers traded: Young, Danks and Volquez. man, oh man.

At least they got Hamilton for Volquez, in a rare deal that looks pretty good from both sides.

[strosrays]

At least they got Hamilton for Volquez, in a rare deal that looks pretty good from both sides.

If you asked me five years ago, I am not sure what if anything I would have expected Josh Hamilton to be doing in 2008, but I am sure leading the American League in RBIs wasn't one of them.

[mihoba]

Dusty had a 9-0 lead in the top of the 7th. Volquez was prolly around 100 pitches thru 6, so why the chance? He walked 2 in the 7th, Dusty still left him out there.

I'm not sold on the pitch counts either, and I agree pitchers tend to be babied, but Dusty has the rep of a meatgrinder for situations just like this.

[strosrays]

Dusty had a 9-0 lead in the top of the 7th. Volquez was prolly around 100 pitches thru 6, so why the chance? He walked 2 in the 7th, Dusty still left him out there.

I'm not sold on the pitch counts either, and I agree pitchers tend to be babied, but Dusty has the rep of a meatgrinder for situations just like this.

I'm not a big fan of Baker (Dusty, not Michael), but I think this part of his reputation is overstated.

[Noe]

Dusty had a 9-0 lead in the top of the 7th. Volquez was prolly around 100 pitches thru 6, so why the chance? He walked 2 in the 7th, Dusty still left him out there.

I'm not sold on the pitch counts either, and I agree pitchers tend to be babied, but Dusty has the rep of a meatgrinder for situations just like this.

What's his bullpen like right now, other than Coco Cordero I mean?

[JimR]

Dusty had a 9-0 lead in the top of the 7th. Volquez was prolly around 100 pitches thru 6, so why the chance? He walked 2 in the 7th, Dusty still left him out there.

I'm not sold on the pitch counts either, and I agree pitchers tend to be babied, but Dusty has the rep of a meatgrinder for situations just like this.

119 is not "meatgrinder." did he get out of it? was he still throwing free and easy?

i know i will not win this discussion around here, but 119 is not risking anything or abuse, imo.

[Taras Bulba]

so, the Rangers traded: Young, Danks and Volquez. man, oh man.

With Ryan around, that probably won't happen much anymore.

[mihoba]

What's his bullpen like right now, other than Coco Cordero I mean?

Not real sure, but dependable vet's David Weathers pitched the eighth and Jeremy Affledt the ninth. I did not see the game.

[Mr. Happy]

I'm not a big fan of Baker (Dusty, not Michael), but I think this part of his reputation is overstated.

I agree with this, and I have written in this forum that Baker was a grinder, but I did a little research, and I don't believe that anymore. The last manager who may have been a bit of a grinder was Billy Martin when he managed the A's.

[MusicMan]

If you asked me five years ago, I am not sure what if anything I would have expected Josh Hamilton to be doing in 2008, but I am sure leading the American League in RBIs wasn't one of them.

"Face down in the gutter" probably would habve led the balloting.

[JimR]

"Face down in the gutter" probably would habve led the balloting.

or "dead"

[Jacksonian]

so, the Rangers traded: Young, Danks and Volquez. man, oh man.

The Volquez trade wasn't bad.  There were a number of people, and probably still are, who thought he was destined for the bullpen and that the mental side of the game would catch up to him.  Like Noe I watched him meltdown against the Hooks a couple of years ago.  Easy mid-90's fastball with movement but when the frustration set in he couldn't pull himself out.  Maybe he's matured.

The Rangers gave away Young because they incorrectly thought he'd peaked and wouldn't be as good as he was in the breakout year in Texas.

They dealt Danks for McCarthy because they thought McCarthy was more major league ready than Danks.  Major mistake.

Their young hotshot GM is not good.

[MusicMan]

Let's not forget that they got, essentially, Brad Wilkerson, Termell Sledge, and Armano Gallaraga for A-Rod (plus two seasons of Soriano).

[S.P. Rodriguez]

so, the Rangers traded: Young, Danks and Volquez. man, oh man.

I'm not sure having those three back would matter.  Not when the Skipper is announcing formal infield practice will be held before batting practice. 

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/042808dnsporangbriefs.2b30d12.html

Their infield defense is awful.  I'm not so sure on the outfield, either.  Bradley looked lost at times, out in LF.  He doesn't look comfortable there, the few times I watched any of their games.  It was early in the season so maybe that's changed. 

[mihoba]

I agree with this, and I have written in this forum that Baker was a grinder, but I did a little research, and I don't believe that anymore. The last manager who may have been a bit of a grinder was Billy Martin when he managed the A's.

I'm not interested in the subject enough to research, mainly because I don't really care for Baker much either, but I'll take your (and strosrays) word on it regarding his rep.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Their young hotshot GM is not good.

Let's not exonerate the owner from some of the bad decisions made by that organization.  He has a tendency to meddle when he's not necessarily knowledgable.  Nolan was a good hire for him.  With any luck (for the fans I mean), Nolan will help them establish a clear philosophy/appreciation of defense.  Anyone who touts Michael Young as a good SS is full of shit. 

[Jacksonian]

Let's not forget that they got, essentially, Brad Wilkerson, Termell Sledge, and Armano Gallaraga for A-Rod (plus two seasons of Soriano).

Wasn't that under their previous GM?

[Jacksonian]

Let's not exonerate the owner from some of the bad decisions made by that organization.  He has a tendency to meddle when he's not necessarily knowledgable.  Nolan was a good hire for him.  With any luck (for the fans I mean), Nolan will help them establish a clear philosophy/appreciation of defense.  Anyone who touts Michael Young as a good SS is full of shit. 

Young's a good shortstop the way Jeter is a good shortstop.  They can both hit.

Nolan's a good hire if Hicks lets him do his job.

[MusicMan]

Wasn't that under their previous GM?

2005, so I think it was.

[jbm]

He is quite a story this year.  His first name is Edinson.  I saw him last year against corpus and he had a dominating cut fastball, but that was the only really impressive pitch I saw.  I thought he could be a good reliever due to that pitch alone, but not an effective starter.  Apparently, that was a very bad evaluation.  

He still needs to cut down on those walks.  Even with his one something ERA, he is still averaging a walk per two innings.  That will catch up to him in time.  

[strosrays]

I'm not interested in the subject enough to research, mainly because I don't really care for Baker much either, but I'll take your (and strosrays) word on it regarding his rep.

There is a thread from a few month back somewhere and we kind of discussed all the guys whose arms Baker supposedly shredded.  It was a pretty good discussion, but I have no idea how to find it.

Some people in Milwaukee think Phil Garner is an arm shredder.  Dierker got blamed for Scott Elarton and others.  There are many, many more.  I just think that 75% or more of a pitcher's health has to do with mechanics and genetics.  One school of thought is that pitchers don't throw enough coming up, and that is why they develop arm problems.

[Mr. Happy]

There is a thread from a few month back somewhere and we kind of discussed all the guys whose arms Baker supposedly shredded.  It was a pretty good discussion, but I have no idea how to find it.

Some people in Milwaukee think Phil Garner is an arm shredder.  Dierker got blamed for Scott Elarton and others.  There are many, many more.  I just think that 75% or more of a pitcher's health has to do with mechanics and genetics.  One school of thought is that pitchers don't throw enough coming up, and that is why they develop arm problems.

I may have started that thread, and I was speaking only from reputation that I had heard. However, I made it a point to check into it and look each year at his clubs and see about injuries, time on the DL, etc., and I didn't find any evidence of it. I think that pitchers  in the USA today are coddled way too much. The Japanese throw their guys a bunch, and it seems to help them. The book that convinced me that pitchers need to throw is Leo Mazzone's book on pitching. It's my favorite of all of my pitching library (which is about 25-30 books).

[Jacksonian]

2005, so I think it was.

I think that was Hart the former Cleveland GM.

[Ebby Calvin]

119 is not "meatgrinder." did he get out of it? was he still throwing free and easy?

i know i will not win this discussion around here, but 119 is not risking anything or abuse, imo.

Agreed.  I was monitoring the game on Gameday and he was still hitting 93-94 with his fastball in the 7th.  He lost some control with his off-speed pitches as the game wore on, and I'll admit I was surprised the Toothpick left him in to face Lee after two walks, but he worked out of the jam with a swinging K on a really good hitter.  I guess it didn't hurt that he was due up at the plate to start the bottom half or that he had a nine run cushion, either.  I suspect Lee was his last batter regardless of result.  Mind you, I watched this on the internets, not the tube.
Let the kid pitch.  Any decision that humiliates the sCrubs is fine with me, Dusty Baker or no.  I'd love to see our lineup bring him back down to earth, though.

[homer]

I'm not so sure on the outfield, either.  Bradley looked lost at times, out in LF.  He doesn't look comfortable there, the few times I watched any of their games.  It was early in the season so maybe that's changed. 

Marlon Byrd is not a very good right fielder either.

[MikeyBoy]

There is a thread from a few month back somewhere and we kind of discussed all the guys whose arms Baker supposedly shredded.  It was a pretty good discussion, but I have no idea how to find it.

Some people in Milwaukee think Phil Garner is an arm shredder.  Dierker got blamed for Scott Elarton and others.  There are many, many more.  I just think that 75% or more of a pitcher's health has to do with mechanics and genetics.  One school of thought is that pitchers don't throw enough coming up, and that is why they develop arm problems.

Baker the Butcher

[Kent's Moustache]

The Rangers gave Volquez the Halladay treatment last season, busting him all the way back down to High-A Bakersfield to rebuild his mental approach and his confidence.  He dominated his way back up the ladder, from the Cali League to the Texas League to the PCL.  Still, I don't think anyone--probably not even the Reds--envisioned the kind of success he's experienced in MLB thus far in '08.

On the trade, I have to agree with Jacksonian.  Win-win.  Hamilton has been, by a mile, the best player on the Rangers team this season, earning AL player of the month for April and playing a nice defensive CF as well.