Sampson Outing

[Emo Oranges]

What do you guys think of Sampson's chances right now to get another start?  If the Astros decide to move him to the pen who would you guys like to see in his spot?

[Noe]

What do you guys think of Sampson's chances right now to get another start?  If the Astros decide to move him to the pen who would you guys like to see in his spot?

If the Astros react to one outing, they should be shot.  They know what they have in Sampson, they know what he throws and how he can or cannot pitch.  If they made him a fifth starter, it is because they believe he can do it.  They gave plenty of guys chances to win the fifth spot and Sampson beat them all.  We've all known that if Sampson is going to have a long career in the majors, it will probably be as a long reliever.

The only reason Sampson is the fifth starter is because nobody else wanted the job and now it's up to Sampson to get better at it.

[Andyzipp]

If the Astros react to one outing, they should be shot.  They know what they have in Sampson, they know what he throws and how he can or cannot pitch.  If they made him a fifth starter, it is because they believe he can do it.  They gave plenty of guys chances to win the fifth spot and Sampson beat them all.  We've all known that if Sampson is going to have a long career in the majors, it will probably be as a long reliever.

The only reason Sampson is the fifth starter is because nobody else wanted the job and now it's up to Sampson to get better at it.

I don't think that decision would be made on one start.  But he's had a few (too lazy to look it up) bad starts this season. 

But until Wandy comes off the DL, nothing is going to happen to Chris.  And even then, who are the other candidates???

Cassel and ?

[OregonStrosFan]

I don't think that decision would be made on one start.  But he's had a few (too lazy to look it up) bad starts this season. 

Save your radio voice and leave the gruntwork to us noobs...  4/18/08 vs. Rockies; 4/28/08 vs. Diamondbacks; and Today.

Personally I'd like to see him continue to get some starts. 

[mihoba]

I don't think that decision would be made on one start.  But he's had a few (too lazy to look it up) bad starts this season. 

But until Wandy comes off the DL, nothing is going to happen to Chris.  And even then, who are the other candidates???

Cassel and ?

Moehler? *cough*

I only count 35 players on the 40-man roster right now. That seems kinda odd.

[Noe]

Moehler? *cough*

I only count 35 players on the 40-man roster right now. That seems kinda odd.

You know, had Felipe Paulino not gotten hurt, he'd be the fifth starter by now and Sampson would have Moehler's job and Moehler would be looking for opportunities elsewhere.  Ifs and buts.  The fifth spot is a good place to slot high minors prospect pitchers, but the Astros don't have any right now that are healthy or performing too well.  Nieve is still working his way back, James is struggling a bit and of course Paulino it out perhaps for the rest of the season.

Sampson ain't going anywhere.

[DVauthrin]

You know, had Felipe Paulino not gotten hurt, he'd be the fifth starter by now and Sampson would have Moehler's job and Moehler would be looking for opportunities elsewhere.  Ifs and buts.  The fifth spot is a good place to slot high minors prospect pitchers, but the Astros don't have any right now that are healthy or performing too well.  Nieve is still working his way back, James is struggling a bit and of course Paulino it out perhaps for the rest of the season.

Sampson ain't going anywhere.

What about Cassel?   And it's not reacting to one outing.    In 6 starts he's not made it to the 5th inning 4 times.    It's clear cooper has run out of patience with him as they had someone warming up in the 2nd or 3rd inning and he had only allowed 2-3 runs to that point.    Cooper was afraid of spotting sheets a huge lead.

You can't keep taxing the bullpen like he's done this season and keep your rotation spot.   

I also think wandy's recent setbacks have postponed the decision on him/cassel/someone else temporarily.

[Mr. Happy]

Noe's right. Sampson's not going anywhere on the basis of these few starts. But his clock clearly is ticking.

[jbm]

I've always been a big Sampson supporter, but he has been brutal lately, and I didn't see anything that makes me think he is turning a corner, and I'm generally positive towards him.  As a pitcher, he seems like he is in a terrible funk.

In this turn of the rotation, I'd move him out and give Cassel a try, but if Wandy isn't available through the next turn, I'd still prefer Sampson over Moehler. 

[pravata]

I'm not sure what the problem is.  He's a groundball pitcher.  Almost everything was hit on the ground yesterday.  He's the 5th pitcher.   Middle relievers were invented because of 5th starters.  Sampson isn't an issue, Backe's 5 inning starts and Rodriguez injured are the issues right now.

[Gizzmonic]

Wigginton probably should have at least gotten to some of those balls in the hole yesterday.

However, Sampson is definitely in need of an out pitch.  He'd get guys 0-2, 1-2, and then WHACK! A double!

[pravata]

Wigginton probably should have at least gotten to some of those balls in the hole yesterday.

However, Sampson is definitely in need of an out pitch.  He'd get guys 0-2, 1-2, and then WHACK! A double!

If he had an out he wouldnt be a 5.

[Andyzipp]

True, but he's got to get to the 5th inning more often than he doesn't.

[Mr. Happy]

True, but he's got to get to the 5th inning more often than he doesn't.

Yep. Otherwise, he is a reliever. See Dotel, Octavio.

[Noe]

What about Cassel?

What about him?

And it's not reacting to one outing.

Then why is this thread titled "Sampson outing"?

[kevwun]

There was a thread a few days ago in which it was speculated that Sampson's next start was a big one for him.

[juliogotay]

You know, had Felipe Paulino not gotten hurt, he'd be the fifth starter by now and Sampson would have Moehler's job and Moehler would be looking for opportunities elsewhere.  Ifs and buts.  The fifth spot is a good place to slot high minors prospect pitchers, but the Astros don't have any right now that are healthy or performing too well.  Nieve is still working his way back, James is struggling a bit and of course Paulino it out perhaps for the rest of the season.

Sampson ain't going anywhere.

Anybody heard any news on Paulino?

[DVauthrin]

What about him?

He is an option to replace Sampson once Wandy returns if Sampson doesn't get it together, wouldn't you say?   If wandy had not suffered a setback, cassel might already be getting the call for Sampson's spot.

Then why is this thread titled "Sampson outing"?
[/quote]

Since I did not title the thread i can't tell you that, but for me, it isn't about just yesterday's outing.   He was lousy vs the rockies and dbacks too.   And yes he had the flu which hurt his effectiveness, but he failed to give you 5 innings vs the cards either. 

[pravata]

Anybody heard any news on Paulino?

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080427&content_id=2603059&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

[pravata]

There was a thread a few days ago in which it was speculated that Sampson's next start was a big one for him.

That was just us talking.  However, the Astros are up in the air about who will start Friday, which is Sampson's next turn,

Friday's starter, Cooper said. "Maybe [Chris] Sampson, could be Brian Moehler. Could be somebody else. Just depends, and it could be Sampson if we try to keep him on his normal [rest]."

...Rodriguez will be re-evaluated again on Monday after he makes his scheduled throwing session.

"We'll probably determine it by Tuesday, I would think," Cooper said.
Link

[Noe]

He is an option to replace Sampson once Wandy returns if Sampson doesn't get it together, wouldn't you say?   If wandy had not suffered a setback, cassel might already be getting the call for Sampson's spot.

I can't say that for sure.  Casell had a chance to beat out Sampson in spring training and he didn't.  Handing him Sampson's job right now would be ill advised.

Since I did not title the thread i can't tell you that,

Hence why I said that if the "Astros reacted to Sampson based on one outing, they'd be nuts".  I went with the title of the thread and replied to the original premise.  In other words: It *IS* about one outing that I responded.

but for me, it isn't about just yesterday's outing.

For the reply I provided to the original question, it was about yesterday's outing.  Now we're going to another route, which is fine, but I don't want you think I pulled that out of the air or somewhere else.  It was not my position, but the original statement made.  So let's talk about the body of work, shall we...

He was lousy vs the rockies and dbacks too.   And yes he had the flu which hurt his effectiveness, but he failed to give you 5 innings vs the cards either. 

Again, Sampson is a glorified long reliever.  Have we not said that here like... ahum... forever.  But if you have a whole buncha guys come into spring training and each and everyone of them failed to beat him out for a starters job, what does that tell you?  It tells me Sampson is giving you what he's got, but the Astros have *no other options* right now.  If they did, then we'd be looking at them right out of spring training.  Until they have another option, the Astros will have to rely on Sampson to do better... not yank him out of there.  Jack Cassell is not an answer but just another option to try but why would you do that?  May as well let Sampson work his way out of his own problems if that is what they want to do.

Here is the real issue: Put these guys into the role that fits them best and you'll get maxium efficiency out of them.  Ask them to do something they're not really suited for, well... you roll with the punches until you can come up with a better solution.  Not an equal solution... a better one.

[DVauthrin]

I can't say that for sure.  Casell had a chance to beat out Sampson in spring training and he didn't.  Handing him Sampson's job right now would be ill advised.

Hence why I said that if the "Astros reacted to Sampson based on one outing, they'd be nuts".  I went with the title of the thread and replied to the original premise.  In other words: It *IS* about one outing that I responded.

For the reply I provided to the original question, it was about yesterday's outing.  Now we're going to another route, which is fine, but I don't want you think I pulled that out of the air or somewhere else.  It was not my position, but the original statement made.  So let's talk about the body of work, shall we...

Again, Sampson is a glorified long reliever.  Have we not said that here like... ahum... forever.  But if you have a whole buncha guys come into spring training and each and everyone of them failed to beat him out for a starters job, what does that tell you?  It tells me Sampson is giving you what he's got, but the Astros have *no other options* right now.  If they did, then we'd be looking at them right out of spring training.  Until they have another option, the Astros will have to rely on Sampson to do better... not yank him out of there.

Fair enough and I agree that reacting to one outing is a bad idea.   Also I agree there aren't any great alternatives in the system, but how long of a leash would you personally grant him before you try someone else and hope for better results? 

[Noe]

Fair enough and I agree that reacting to one outing is a bad idea.   Also I agree there aren't any great alternatives in the system, but how long of a leash would you personally grant him before you try someone else and hope for better results? 

Until you have someone better to go with.  Equal does not mean better (see: Cassell, Jack).  They may go with Moehler who has been throwing better and has much better stuff than Cassell or Sampson, but that is a reach as well.  See the problem isn't "see how badly Sampson is doing... well... take him out".  The problem is "... and replace him with who?".

[jonbloozy]

But until Wandy comes off the DL, nothing is going to happen to Chris.  And even then, who are the other candidates???

Cassel and ?

Josh Muecke.  Another quality start today for RR.  Has been the most consistent starter for RR. 

And he's a lefty.

Round Rock Pitching

[JimR]

Josh Muecke.  Another quality start today for RR.  Has been the most consistent starter for RR. 

And he's a lefty.

]Round Rock Pitching

soft-tossing lefty. Taras and i saw him once. he looks like he knows how to pitch.

[JaneDoe]

Josh Muecke.  Another quality start today for RR.  Has been the most consistent starter for RR. 

And he's a lefty.

Round Rock Pitching

Round Rock wins today 2-1.

[Taras Bulba]

I wouldn't be shocked to see him called up.  Also, I looked at the box and saw Abercrombie is 3 for 4 with only one whiff.  What the fuck is going on?

[JimR]

I wouldn't be shocked to see him called up.  Also, I looked at the box and saw Abercrombie is 3 for 4 with only one whiff.  What the fuck is going on?

this was DARE day, and Reggie was on drugs.

[Jacksonian]

soft-tossing lefty. Taras and i saw him once. he looks like he knows how to pitch.

I have found it at least a little odd that the Astros have not thought enough of him to add him to the 40-man roster, esp with the dearth of pitching and that he's a lefty.  Also a little odd that he has been passed over in the Rule 5 draft.

[JaneDoe]

I have found it at least a little odd that the Astros have not thought enough of him to add him to the 40-man roster, esp with the dearth of pitching and that he's a lefty.  Also a little odd that he has been passed over in the Rule 5 draft.

Is it a little strange that they only have 35 on the 40 man roster? 

[Arky Vaughan]

Here is the real issue: Put these guys into the role that fits them best and you'll get maxium efficiency out of them.  Ask them to do something they're not really suited for, well... you roll with the punches until you can come up with a better solution.  Not an equal solution... a better one.

This sums it up perfectly. Sampson is giving more or less what could reasonably expected of him. Expecting more was wishful thinking. They're getting by with what they've got.

[Jacksonian]

Is it a little strange that they only have 35 on the 40 man roster? 

I suppose you could ask who should they put on there that isn't?

[Arky Vaughan]

Until you have someone better to go with.  Equal does not mean better (see: Cassell, Jack).  They may go with Moehler who has been throwing better and has much better stuff than Cassell or Sampson, but that is a reach as well.  See the problem isn't "see how badly Sampson is doing... well... take him out".  The problem is "... and replace him with who?".

C'mon, Noe, you know this. You go to your team's page and click "add a player." Then you view the free-agent pool, and rank all the available starting pitchers by how well they've done this year. Then you click the plus-sign next to the guy you want. Then you're asked which player you want to drop, and you press the "drop player" button. Then you click "confirm," your old player is dropped and the new guy is added. Voila, you've got him on your roster ready to go the same day.

[JaneDoe]

I suppose you could ask who should they put on there that isn't?

My question was actually more generic--Is it typical of most clubs to keep it full at 40?  I don't know all of the ramifications that go along with being on the 40-man (salary, options, etc. or even if there are any ramifications).

[jonbloozy]

I wouldn't be shocked to see him called up.  Also, I looked at the box and saw Abercrombie is 3 for 4 with only one whiff.  What the fuck is going on?

I was listening and it sounded liked he also crushed one foul and just missed hitting a HR

[juliogotay]

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080427&content_id=2603059&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Thanks, Pravata. I wish the news were more encouraging on Paulino. It would be interesting to see if he could build on a couple of quality starts last September. He looks like the one pitcher in our system who could legitimately be a #2 starter in time.

[Jacksonian]

My question was actually more generic--Is it typical of most clubs to keep it full at 40?  I don't know all of the ramifications that go along with being on the 40-man (salary, options, etc. or even if there are any ramifications).

My impression is that they are generally closer to 40 but not always full, maybe 38 or 39, leaving a little flexibility to add players via call-up and/or trade without having to remove a player from the 40-man and thus exposing that player to waivers.

[OregonStrosFan]

Fair enough and I agree that reacting to one outing is a bad idea.   Also I agree there aren't any great alternatives in the system, but how long of a leash would you personally grant him before you try someone else and hope for better results?

Sampson to get an extra days rest and some extra work.  FOOTER LINK

With Rodriguez needing more time to rehab, Brian Moehler will start Friday's opener in Los Angeles, followed by Chris Sampson and Shawn Chacon.

Sampson, receiving an extra day of rest, will spend ample time with pitching coach Dewey Robinson between starts in an effort to get back on track after two poor outings.

"Chris has had a little problem with commanding his fastball," manager Cecil Cooper said. "The slider's not been the slider we saw last year. We just thought he needed an extra day. He pitched on Sunday and really struggled. I'm going to try to get some work for him, to work on some things."

[rifraft]

Sampson to get an extra days rest and some extra work.  FOOTER LINK

Hopefully the bullpen work is as successful for Chris as it was for Jose Valverde.

[Mr. Happy]

Hopefully the bullpen work is as successful for Chris as it was for Jose Valverde.

Yeah, I hope that it helps. We have to get behind Chris; we need him to pitch well.

[Astroholic]

Yeah, I hope that it helps. We have to get behind Chris; we need him to pitch well.

How can "we" help?

[Mr. Happy]

How can "we" help?

Beseeching the BBG's for aid and succor.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

How can "we" help?

Make an altar, lite a candel.

[VirtualBob]

My impression is that they are generally closer to 40 but not always full, maybe 38 or 39, leaving a little flexibility to add players via call-up and/or trade without having to remove a player from the 40-man and thus exposing that player to waivers.

And to elaborate a little ... this is actually related to the concerns expressed elsewhere about quality players in the minors.  Once the Rule 5 draft is over, there is zero reason to add a player already under contract to the 40 man roster until such time as you want him on the 25 man roster.  Having open slots allows the team to promote whoever they want to as the need dictates.

Prior to the Rule 5 draft, there is zero reason to add a player to the 40 man roster unless you want to ensure that he is not lost via the draft.  So (to take the example cited earlier), Muecke is not on the 40 man roster because of some combination of (a) the Astros [correctly] predicted that he woul dnot be selected, and (b) the Astros woul dnot have been terribly upset if he had been selected.  That combination tells you something.

[JimR]

Yeah, I hope that it helps. We have to get behind Chris; we need him to pitch well.

man, i'm not going that far. we need SOMEBODY to pitch well. it does not have to be Sampson. i happen to be in the minority here, but i think Cassell is a better option, with Sampson moving to the pen.

[MusicMan]

Count me in that minority.  I still think Cassel will have less meltdowns than Sampson.

[Taras Bulba]

Sampson hasn't been the same since Wheeler pushed him.  He cries a lot at night.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

man, i'm not going that far. we need SOMEBODY to pitch well. it does not have to be Sampson. i happen to be in the minority here, but i think Cassell is a better option, with Sampson moving to the pen.

I'm starting to come around to your side.  I think he has enough "stuff" to compete but not as part of the rotation.  I've noticed a couple things.  First, he's not consistent from start to start.  Second, after the fourth inning (even in his better starts), his control/command slips.  He starts getting up in the zone, the pitches have less life.  He's a typical spot-starter/long relief guy.  I think he will be very effective in that role. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Astros don't make the same assessment, should Sampson continue to struggle, and bring up Cassell.  Sampson could land in the pen (probably leading to the release of Moehler) or head to AAA as a fall back option.

But I haven't seen enough of Cassell to determine he's better.  I think I have seen enough to conclude that Sampson has proved he's not going to give the Astros a chance to win more often than not. That's his only job, keep them in the game.  He's struggling to do that, as far as I can tell. 

[JimR]

I'm starting to come around to your side.  I think he has enough "stuff" to compete but not as part of the rotation.  I've noticed a couple things.  First, he's not consistent from start to start.  Second, after the fourth inning (even in his better starts), his control/command slips.  He starts getting up in the zone, the pitches have less life.  He's a typical spot-starter/long relief guy.  I think he will be very effective in that role. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Astros don't make the same assessment, should Sampson continue to struggle, and bring up Cassell.  Sampson could land in the pen (probably leading to the release of Moehler) or head to AAA as a fall back option.

But I haven't seen enough of Cassell to determine he's better.  I think I have seen enough to conclude that Sampson has proved he's not going to give the Astros a chance to win more often than not. That's his only job, keep them in the game.  He's struggling to do that, as far as I can tell. 

i disagree with Cooper that his slider is the big problem. in my "who cares but me" opinion, his probles are:

1. pitching up--thigh and higher
2. sinker flat/not going down
3. breaking pitch

[pravata]

i disagree with Cooper that his slider is the big problem. in my "who cares but me" opinion, his probles are:

1. pitching up--thigh and higher
2. sinker flat/not going down
3. breaking pitch

"Sinker flat" is it.  He's keeping it low but it's straight.  He got in trouble last game going any higher than shoe top, much less thigh high.

[jbm]

i disagree with Cooper that his slider is the big problem. in my "who cares but me" opinion, his probles are:

1. pitching up--thigh and higher
2. sinker flat/not going down
3. breaking pitch

I was kind of surprised by Cooper's quote.  I never thought Sampson's slider was much at all.  He rarely used it and he often made critical mistakes with it last year.  I actually think the few he threw last game were pretty decent by his standards.  He had an excellent curve against the Reds, but that was the only time. 

He also needs to start making his pitches when he is ahead.  Very few hitters bite on a Sampson curve in the dirt of a sinker eight inches out.  He needs to be more aggressive when ahead.  He seems to be pitching scared imo.

Any experts out there about the sinker?  JD mentioned his shoulder flying open last game.  I realize that affects his command, but will it also flatten his sinker?

[JimR]

I was kind of surprised by Cooper's quote.  I never thought Sampson's slider was much at all.  He rarely used it and he often made critical mistakes with it last year.  I actually think the few he threw last game were pretty decent by his standards.  He had an excellent curve against the Reds, but that was the only time. 

He also needs to start making his pitches when he is ahead.  Very few hitters bite on a Sampson curve in the dirt of a sinker eight inches out.  He needs to be more aggressive when ahead.  He seems to be pitching scared imo.

Any experts out there about the sinker?  JD mentioned his shoulder flying open last game.  I realize that affects his command, but will it also flatten his sinker?

it can, but the biggest problem is not staying on top of the ball.

[Mr. Happy]

man, i'm not going that far. we need SOMEBODY to pitch well. it does not have to be Sampson. i happen to be in the minority here, but i think Cassell is a better option, with Sampson moving to the pen.

I agree with you on all counts. However, I just don't want to throw away a game with another poor effort on Sampson's part.

[OregonStrosFan]

Thanks, Pravata. I wish the news were more encouraging on Paulino. It would be interesting to see if he could build on a couple of quality starts last September. He looks like the one pitcher in our system who could legitimately be a #2 starter in time.

Paulino has returned to the Astros Spring training facility in Florida to "begin a throwing program."  MLB Gameday Press Pass / Pregame Notes