4/15/08: HOU @ PHI

[awrr]

The 14th of about 162
Pre-game notes
MLB Gameday

Astros
Bourn CF
Loretta 2B
Berkman 1B
Lee LF
Tejada SS
Blum 3B
Pence RF
Ausmus C
Chacon P

pHils
Werth CF
Ruiz C
Utley 2B
Howard 1B
Burrell LF
Jenkins RF
Feliz 3B
Bruntlett SS
Eaton P

[SaltyParker]

Astros up 1-0 on Tejada's RBI of Berkman, middle of the 1st

[legs_of_eggs]

Both pitchers look pretty solid to start.

[SaltyParker]

Both pitchers look pretty solid to start.

Chacon perfect after two.  Good Guys 1-0

[hostros7]

Did Pence really just K on three straight called strikes?  Or has gamecast deceived me?  I don't know if this is a 4th dimension of suck, a new commitment to patience, or some twisted combination of the two.

[SaltyParker]

Did Pence really just K on three straight called strikes?  Or has gamecast deceived me?  I don't know if this is a 4th dimension of suck, a new commitment to patience, or some twisted combination of the two.

Sadly, it looks more and more as if he may need to go down to RR and get his confidence back up.  He is encroaching on Jason Lane territory with his .173

[drew corleone]

I just turned it on... has the ball died like that on any other hits? I thought we were tied when he connected.

[WakePhil]

Did Pence really just K on three straight called strikes?  Or has gamecast deceived me?  I don't know if this is a 4th dimension of suck, a new commitment to patience, or some twisted combination of the two.

Ensberg, is that you? Ahhh...watching third strikes. Always reminds me of this from the HOF:

BEST WINDOW INTO HIS OWN LIFE
EasTexAstro

Morgan is just like a married man at the beach.

He just watches’em go by, saying “I’d hit that.”

[mihoba]

He was guessing offspeed on all three pitches. He was wrong on all three. Never took the bat off his shoulder. Eaton totally baffled him with heaters.

[mihoba]

I just noticed the Astros do not have their names on the red road jerseys. Wonder why?

ETA: Bourn doesn't anyway.

[Matt]

Bourn is wearing Jackie Robinson's number tonight.

[Ebby Calvin]

I just noticed the Astros do not have their names on the red road jerseys. Wonder why?

ETA: Bourn doesn't anyway.

I'm not watching, but if Bourn's sporting a number 42, that could be why.  Jackie Robinson day and all....

[mihoba]

Bourn is wearing Jackie Robinson's number tonight.

Of course. I forgot about that.

[legs_of_eggs]

Bourn is wearing Jackie Robinson's number tonight.

As is Cecil Cooper

[WakePhil]

Not that striking out Howard is any great feat, but Chacon looked real good in that K

[Matt]

Chacon looks pretty damn good.

[WakePhil]

Berkman is just ripping the ball out there. That homer Friday was probably one of the weaker balls he's hit into play all year.

[remy]

Argh... need Miggy to come through with something there.

[JaneDoe]

Great pick me up for Blum.

[remy]

Attaboy Geoff!  That was a great at bat.

[JaneDoe]

Pence really tacked that one and its just a sac fly.

[remy]

Ooooh Hunter really got that one.  That's a good sign, hopefully not just dumb luck.

[Bench]

Pence was sitting on that fastball. Nice swing.

[legs_of_eggs]

Good job by Pence putting it in the air for the sac fly

[drew corleone]

Nice rope, Hunter.

[rifraft]

the middle of the order is living up to the hype right about now.  berkman, lee, and tejada are
mashing, you gotta love it.

[remy]

Blum overjumped that one, shucks.  How bout another double play?

[WakePhil]

JD called the ball Pence hit a breaking ball, but going back to look at it, they clocked it at 89. I don't think Eaton's throwing breaking balls at 89, but it did have a bit of a bend in it.

[remy]

This inning could get ugly fast.

[legs_of_eggs]

JD called the ball Pence hit a breaking ball, but going back to look at it, they clocked it at 89. I don't think Eaton's throwing breaking balls at 89, but it did have a bit of a bend in it.

Ever hear of a 2-seamer?

[Andyzipp]

I'm at a t-ball game.  What's the score?

[remy]

I'm at a t-ball game.  What's the score?

\

3-0 Astros bottom 6th, Chacon trying to get out of a jam without any runs scored.  2 on 2 out.

[Andyzipp]

Gratzi

[legs_of_eggs]

Great range by Tejada nice

[JaneDoe]

Great job of getting out of that one.

[WakePhil]

Doing a good job of battling after that error and bloop....great play by Tejada, great work by Chacon to get out of that inning.

[remy]

Aaaaaaaaand he got out of it.  That was a BULLET of a throw from Tejada!

[Ebby Calvin]

Solid play by Tejada to his right.

[pravata]

Those people who've been saying these past few years that Tejada can't play short, which the hell Tejada have they been watching?

[mihoba]

Doing a good job of battling after that error and bloop....great play by Tejada, great work by Chacon to get out of that inning.

That was not an error on Blum.

[drew corleone]

Hell of a job of pitching out of that one. And another hell of a play from Miggy.

[WakePhil]

Aaaaaaaaand he got out of it.  That was a BULLET of a throw from Tejada!

Good job getting his feet set. Jeter would have pulled one of his jump throws there.

[JaneDoe]

That was not an error on Blum.

Did they score it an E? 

[mihoba]

Did they score it an E? 

Nope, base hit.

[JaneDoe]

Nope, base hit.

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[JaneDoe]

Andy--do you need pbp?

[WakePhil]

I can't get GameCast to come up. For anyone that does, what's Chacon's pitch count?

[matadorph]

How 'bout dem Astro starting pitchers!

[mihoba]

So how's the little Zippster doing in the game, Andy?

[remy]

Cmon Kabong, put it out of reach.

eta:  Dangit, that's not what the doctor ordered.

[mihoba]

I can't get GameCast to come up. For anyone that does, what's Chacon's pitch count?

75 w/50 strikes

[drew corleone]

back-to-back singles... c'om Caballo!

[WakePhil]

75 w/50 strikes

Thanks, real impressive for Chacon.

[mihoba]

back-to-back singles... c'om Caballo!

You must be on delay, the B-7 just starting...

[drew corleone]

Ah shit... thanks for reminding me. I paused it to finish dinner and never FF'd through the commercials.

[WakePhil]

Ah shit... thanks for reminding me. I paused it to finish dinner and never FF'd through the commercials.

Done that several times already tonight. Watched Blum's play on double speed trying to catch up, hence my mistake in calling it an error.

[SaltyParker]

Thanks, real impressive for Chacon.

Agreed, only 20 batters through 6 innings.

[remy]

Chacon not giving in to Howard.  I'll take the BB over the alternative.  How bout another DP?

[WakePhil]

Good to see WW warming up, guess the finger is better.

[Bench]

Good to see WW warming up, guess the finger is better.

How come he's not wearing 42?

[Bench]

In August this would be one hell of a high scoring game.

[JaneDoe]

Utley grounds out to Berkman.

Howard walks.  First walk of the night for Chacon.

Burrell K's swinging.  5 K's for Chacon.

Jenkins flies to Bourn on the warning track.

Going to the 8th, Astros 3, pHillies 0

[remy]

Wohoo!

Man Chacon was money tonight.  Pen sure as shit better hold it.

[Andyzipp]

Just hit a double, but got stranded.  The Oaks Dads Blue Jays are briefy leading 4-0

[JaneDoe]

How come he's not wearing 42?

What--just because of his skin color?

[rifraft]

What--just because of his skin color?

actually, because of his gender.

[legs_of_eggs]

How come he's not wearing 42?

It isn't mandatory for african-american players to wear #42 on Jackie Robinson day.

[Bench]

It isn't mandatory for african-american players to wear #42 on Jackie Robinson day.

No it's not, but it's certainly the trend. I'm just wondering if he got the opportunity or was passed up as a rook and didn't think it his place to speak up. Just wondering if anything has been mentioned.

[JaneDoe]

Tejada grounds to 1B.

Brocail and Wright up in the pen.

Blum hits a high pop up to Feliz.

Pence pops to Werth in shallow CF.

[SaltyParker]

Just hit a double, but got stranded.  The Oaks Dads Blue Jays are briefy leading 4-0

I am an old Oaks Dads Club alumni. Many fond memories playing as a kid.

[remy]

Chacon still in there, buttom of the order I guess.

[WakePhil]

JD talking about Chacon getting a chance at the shut out. If he pitches well here, I hope they give him the chance, he deserves it.

ETA: walk doesn't help those chances.

[Bench]

Nice job talking Coop out of the hook.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Chacon walks the Crimson chin, Rollins is pinch hitting.

[WakePhil]

I like that Coop went with an open mind there, don't see that too often anymore.

[drew corleone]

Brown said that the teams decided to have only one player wear 42.

[Bench]

Brown said that the teams decided to have only one player wear 42.

Cool.

[WakePhil]

Do you let Chacon throw 130+ if that's what it takes?

[chuck]

I'll be fascinated to see if Coop lets Chacon hit.

[Bench]

Do you let Chacon throw 130+ if that's what it takes?

Depends on how he's throwing.

[mihoba]

I'd be shocked if he gets a shot at a shutout. Valverde is ready.

[remy]

Way to go Shaun!  I would not let him go out again in the 9th though. Give it to googly-eyes.

[Bench]

Way to go Shaun!  I would not let him go out again in the 9th though. Give it to googly-eyes.

It's Shawn, but yeah. Hell of a job toeing the rubber tonight.

[pravata]

No it's not, but it's certainly the trend. I'm just wondering if he got the opportunity or was passed up as a rook and didn't think it his place to speak up. Just wondering if anything has been mentioned.

Wright wouldnt have that call.  I saw that the Astros and Phillies talked about it, whether the whole team would wear The Number or just one guy.  The Phillies choose Utley, the Astros Bourn.

[AtascAstro]

I guess this is one way to avoid a bullpen letdown.  I don't think anybody envisioned the starting rotation starting the season like this.  Nice job Chacon!

[Bench]

Wright wouldnt have that call.  I saw that the Astros and Phillies talked about it, whether the whole team would wear The Number or just one guy.  The Phillies choose Utley, the Astros Bourn.

Yep. That's what Drew said.

[drew corleone]

In August this would be one hell of a high scoring game.

Yep. But I don't think that's a knock on Chacon. He's made pitches when he's had to do so.

[pravata]

Yep. That's what Drew said.

I typed too slow.

[Bench]

Wright wouldnt have that call.  I saw that the Astros and Phillies talked about it, whether the whole team would wear The Number or just one guy.  The Phillies choose Utley, the Astros Bourn.

Also, Rollins is wearing 42.

[Bench]

Yep. But I don't think that's a knock on Chacon. He's made pitches when he's had to do so.

Not at all. He's doing beautifully.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Do you let Chacon throw 130+ if that's what it takes?

No you let Valverde earn his money. Eight innings is the most Chacon has ever gone. No reason to change that now.

[remy]

It's Shawn, but yeah. Hell of a job toeing the rubber tonight.

Ahh, well.  guess I was thinking Shaun of the Dead.

[AtascAstro]

Would be nice to see Valverde work an inning w/o baserunners...

[Bench]

No you let Valverde earn his money. Eight innings is the most Chacon has ever gone. No reason to change that now.

Eight was it for him. Great job tonight.

[legs_of_eggs]

Excellent job Chacon, great outing

[AtascAstro]

Did JD just say that's a double? (I'm following on Gametracker)

[legs_of_eggs]

FYI, Utely and Howard will hit in the bottom.

[remy]

Did JD just say that's a double? (I'm following on Gametracker)

It was a walk, but I guess with Bourn on 1st base its as good as a double?

[AtascAstro]

It was a walk, but I guess with Bourn on 1st base its as good as a double?

He's been saying that a lot anytime Born gets to first, was just hearing him in my head.

[Bench]

It was a walk, but I guess with Bourn on 1st base its as good as a double?

And it is.

[remy]

ouch, bourn hit the bag going about 27 mph.

[Bench]

Did JD just say that's a double? (I'm following on Gametracker)

How are you listening to JD but following on a gametracker?

[matadorph]

I'd like to see Bourn perfect his slide.

[drew corleone]

I love watching Bourn steal bases.

[chuck]

It would not hurt my feelings at all for Valverde to have to wait until tomorrow for his 100th.

[remy]

I love watching Bourn steal bases.

I do too, but I'd also love to not watch him rip his kneecap off.

[WakePhil]

Great work by Loretta getting Berkman to the plate

[AtascAstro]

How are you listening to JD but following on a gametracker?

Statistical Probability

[remy]

Statistical Probability

Oh, I get it now.

SHIT.  Lance crushed THAT one too.  Damn you Howard.

[matadorph]

Damn, Valverde gets another chance at a save.

[pravata]

I'd like to see Bourn perfect his slide.

He's been sliding to the outside of the bag and almost sliding past.  That time straight to the middle and almost broke his leg.

[MikeyBoy]

I thought that was a hit off the bat...nice snag by Howard.

[matadorph]

I do too, but I'd also love to not watch him rip his kneecap off.

Or watch him get tagged out sliding way past the bag.

[WakePhil]

Damn, Valverde gets another chance at a save.

At least its the 3 run variety. He's got to get it worked out eventually, might as well do it with two training wheels he can break off.

[Bench]

Oh, I get it now.

I don't.

[Anit]

well uh..

that certainly wasnt a great start

[chuck]

Motherfucker.

[Bench]

Oy. The one-time pride of San Antonio crushed that.

[matadorph]

what the fuckckkkkkkk

I miss Lidge.

[drew corleone]

Fucking A.

[MikeyBoy]

Bourn on base two more times tonight, whether it's a walk, single or whatever, he's always in scoring position when on.

SHIT. That didn't take long to get out.

[JaneDoe]

Valverde in and promptly gives up a HR.

Lidge up in the bull pen.

[Bench]

Now the tying run at the plate with big lumber up. Man, Valverde likes making it interesting.

[remy]

SERIOUSLY not fucking pleased with this guy so far.  REMY GETTING VERY ANGRY.

[Ron Brand]

Googly Eyes, please do not crap the bed!

[matadorph]

This is not happening, right?

Now would be a good time for the 6-4-3

[Ron Brand]

Did not see the K coming with what he was serving up.

[JaneDoe]

Valverde hits Utley.  Ryan Howard up. 

This is just shitty.

Howard K's.  Thank the sun, moon and stars.

[MikeyBoy]

PONCHE...now the 6-4-3.

[remy]

Ahhh thank god.  Howard K's.  NOW I'll take the 6-4-3. Pretty please.

[Bench]

FUCK.

[MikeyBoy]

or not

[Anit]

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT

[Greg M]

Well shit

[matadorph]

OH



MY


FUCKING



GAWD

[remy]

Can we untrade with Arizona?

[JaneDoe]

Well, PHUCK.  Burrell gets a 2 run HR.

This is better than Lidge?

[matadorph]

This dude sucks.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Fuck. What a shit bum.

[MikeyBoy]

Still only one out too.

[chuck]

This team has all sorts of problems, but starting pitching does not seem to be one of them.

Looks like Jose will have to wait until tomorrow after all.

[Towlie]

...now what

[JaneDoe]

Chacon pitched his ass off.  Valverde sucks rotten eggs.

[rifraft]

Can we untrade with Arizona?

there isn't anyone else to close on the roster right now, gotta hang tough and hope he gets it together.
shit happens, lets just hope the stros come back and get this one.

[AtascAstro]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

[WakePhil]

Well, lets hope the offense lets Valverde the Win Vulture keeps up his theiving ways.

[MikeyBoy]

...now what

Win the fucking game.

[Bench]

Would be nice to see Valverde work an inning w/o baserunners...

You got your wish in the most unfortunate manner.

[remy]

there isn't anyone else to close on the roster right now, gotta hang tough and hope he gets it together.
shit happens, lets just hope the stros come back and get this one.

I'd rather have Borkowski closing than this guy right now.  He has not had one single solid outing.

[Towlie]

valverde doesnt have his split finger down...bring up Gervacio!

[Bench]

I'd rather have Borkowski closing than this guy right now.  He has not had one single solid outing.

Borkowski is on the DL. Oh wait, DAMN YOU EXTRA CONSENANTS!!!!

[AtascAstro]

You got your wish in the most unfortunate manner.

Yeah, not quite what I had in mind...

[matadorph]

there isn't anyone else to close on the roster right now, gotta hang tough and hope he gets it together.
shit happens, lets just hope the stros come back and get this one.

True, very true.

One thing Lidge had that Valverde doesn't is the respect and benefit of the doubt of the overwhelming majority of TZers. Valverde needs to get his shit together quick.

[legs_of_eggs]

Fellas, he blew 7 saves last year. It happens to closers.

[Bench]

Even when he strikes out a guy it doesn't work for him.

[chuck]

This is just fucking stupid.

[Ron Brand]

Doomed.

[matadorph]

Well ain't that just typical. He gets the strikeout and the Jenkins reaches anyway.

[AtascAstro]

Fellas, he blew 7 saves last year. It happens to closers.

He could spread them out a little more, doesn't have to hit the quota in April...

[Towlie]

it seems like hes just throwing it up in there...not even locating.

[matadorph]

BULLLSHIT CALL

[hostros7]

WE HAD HIM

[Bench]

Fuck. He looked out on Brad's olay shit.

[Towlie]

wow he was way out.

[Greg M]

Bullshit.  What a fucking game.

[MikeyBoy]

Ausmus and his sweep tag.

[JaneDoe]

shit.

[tophfar]

ausmus block the goddamn fucking plate.  fucking goddamn swipe tag.

[Ron Brand]

Nope, Bad Brad missed him.

[remy]

The difference with Lidge was, he had already endeared himself with Astros fans before things turned sour.  So there was always a big part of us hoping and praying he'd turn it around, for his own sake.  

But with this new hackjob, Astros fans only know him as guy who breaks into screaming, fist pumping, and crazy-eyed theatrics to celebrate a win over the Good Guys.

In other words:  I don't like this guy.  And he's not doing anything to help change that.




Aaaaaaand ballgame.  Fuck you very much Valverde.

edited because I'm too fucking mad to type well.

[Bench]

Well, that sucked. Talk about taking the air out of the ballon. Motherfuck.

[matadorph]

Godddamit can we get a reliable closer?!!?

[hostros7]

Valverde is reminding me way to much of Lima time.

[Towlie]

oh well, next time.

[Ron Brand]

Fuckshit.  Let's go pound some Budweiser.

[Zac D]

There is a silver lining to this game that I can see.

Based on historical trends, this is EXACTLY the game in the series I should've picked to attend, and it would have been phenomenally crushing in person. But I'm going tomorrow instead.

A silver lining for me only, I mean. I have nothing for the rest of you.

[The Third Man]

That was a sudden collapse.

-The Hindenburg

[AtascAstro]

There is a silver lining to this game that I can see.

Based on historical trends, this is EXACTLY the game in the series I should've picked to attend, and it would have been phenomenally crushing in person. But I'm going tomorrow instead.

A silver lining for me only, I mean. I have nothing for the rest of you.

No there silver lining a plenty...Chacon pitched well, the offense put runs up early...its just there's a ginormous turd sandwhich covering the whole frickin plate

[MikeyBoy]

Hopefully, the Oaks Dads' closer is more successful.

[moriartp]

Oh, the humanity!

[tophfar]

And the valverde histrionics aside, bradley fucked us but good on that.

his passed ball put jenkins on.  and then his non plate blocking pretty boy face, let him slide in for the winning run.

if we're going to run valverde up the fucking flag pole, there were alot of things that went wrong in that inning.

[chuck]

This one is 100% on Coop. I don't care what the book says. You have a closer who can't get through an inning and a starter who was cruising. You have to give Chacon a chance in the 9th.

[tophfar]

This one is 100% on Coop. I don't care what the book says. You have a closer who can't get through an inning and a starter who was cruising. You have to give Chacon a chance in the 9th.

oh bullfuckingshit.

[AtascAstro]

The thing was with Lidge, we had seen him dominant and making batters looking ridiculous.  Even when he was giving up bombs he still had his moment.  Valverde is looking an awful lot like middle relief, ineffective middle relief.

[dalillama]

what a horrible night. the bruins lost 1-0 and jose lidge blows another one. wandy and chacon should give this guy a beating. can't keep wasting great pitching with this clown.

[JaneDoe]

TV guys are talking about something that has concerned me.  In the past, the Astros had Wheeler and Qualls that could come in and close.  Now--there is no one in the pen that just grabs you as a viable alternative.

[mihoba]

This one is 100% on Coop. I don't care what the book says. You have a closer who can't get through an inning and a starter who was cruising. You have to give Chacon a chance in the 9th.

Exactly why I didn't think Chacon would finish. Coop has made it know that Valverde will pitch the 9th if he is available. I don't like it one bit.

[AtascAstro]

This one is 100% on Coop. I don't care what the book says. You have a closer who can't get through an inning and a starter who was cruising. You have to give Chacon a chance in the 9th.

I'm not buying this...the man is paid to be a closer

[matadorph]

This one is 100% on Coop. I don't care what the book says. You have a closer who can't get through an inning and a starter who was cruising. You have to give Chacon a chance in the 9th.

I disagree. You're handing the ball to your closer with the maximum room to notch a save and get his confidence up, and he promptly throws up a cookie that gets crushed. It's on Valverde, not Coop.

[JaneDoe]

Exactly why I didn't think Chacon would finish. Coop has made it know that Valverde will pitch the 9th if he is available. I don't like it one bit.

Me either, but who am I to question him?

[awrr]

I don't see what Lidge has to do with this game.

Referring to Valverde as Jose Lidge seems pretty retarded.  And blaming Coop for bringing Valverde in also seems pretty retarded.

It was a heartbreaker, but they'll be back at it tomorrow.  Bravo, Mr. Chacon.

[dalillama]

You're handing the ball to your closer with the maximum room to notch a save

and in this situation he's 0-2.

[Zac D]

I'm not buying this...the man is paid to be a closer

Agree. If it was a bad decision to acquire him (and it is WAY, WAY, WAY too early to say that) then that's on the guys who made the move to get him. But from Cooper's perspective, Valverde is the Astros' closer, for better or (currently) for worse.

[pravata]

Everyone goes with their closer, the fastball cut in, not a lot Ausmus could do with that, Jenkins beat the ball.

[tophfar]

Exactly why I didn't think Chacon would finish. Coop has made it know that Valverde will pitch the 9th if he is available. I don't like it one bit.

it's what the man is paid to do. 

is it coop's fault that he keeps putting Roy out there even though he's struggling too?

[pots]

Well I have to say the Arbitrator in the Valverde case made the right call.  

[Twoniner]

  You don't run Chacon out there for 120+ pitches because you are scared shitless of your closer.   If this is what Valverde is going to be, you are fucked regardless of whether you dodge using him tonight.  

[DVauthrin]

I'm not buying this...the man is paid to be a closer

The only reason chacon should have come out is if he was laboring the inning prior, and he didn't.   He also had only thrown 109 pitches and has no career shutouts.   He deserved the chance to start the 9th and if someone gets on, then you bring in the closer.    

Cooper over managed the 9th inning.   

[matadorph]

Having seen the replay again, I don't think Ausmus did anything wrong there. He couldn't block the plate because the throw from Tejada was a little inside. If he blocks the plate, he gets crushed by Jenkins and doesn't catch the ball.

[tophfar]

Cooper over managed the 9th inning.   

Since when is one pitching change, to bring in your closer, "overmanaging"?

[MikeyBoy]

Having seen the replay again, I don't think Ausmus did anything wrong there. He couldn't block the plate because the throw from Tejada was a little inside. If he blocks the plate, he gets crushed by Jenkins and doesn't catch the ball.

Yep and as pravata said, Jenkins beat the ball to the plate, Ausmus would have been steamrolled, chics everywhere would have cried.

[MikeyBoy]

Since when is one pitching change, to bring in your closer, "overmanaging"?

Since the strategy failed.

[matadorph]

The only reason chacon should have come out is if he was laboring the inning prior, and he didn't.   He also had only thrown 109 pitches and has no career shutouts.   He deserved the chance to start the 9th and if someone gets on, then you bring in the closer.     

Cooper over managed the 9th inning.   

His spot led off the top of the 9th, right? Don't you need to PH for him with only a three-run lead and your closer warming up in the pen?

Criticizing Coop is just pointless armchair managing.

[tophfar]

Yep and as pravata said, Jenkins beat the ball to the plate, Ausmus would have been steamrolled, chics everywhere would have cried.

He should have been in front of the plate, if the throw is off line it doesnt matter because the run ends the game period.  His setup inside the plate for his infield swipe tag no matter where that ball was going to be thrown.

[awrr]

The only reason chacon should have come out is if he was laboring the inning prior, and he didn't.   He also had only thrown 109 pitches and has no career shutouts.   He deserved the chance to start the 9th and if someone gets on, then you bring in the closer.     

Cooper over managed the 9th inning.   

Aren't laboring and pitch counts pretty different things?  The Philly 8th was also the bottom of their order.

If Coop saw something he didn't like, and saw the top of the Phils order coming up, I don't see how you can second guess bringing a closer into that situation.

If you have to pick one person who lost the game, which is silly, it still wouldn't be Coop.  Valverde was the one giving the runs up.

[SaltyParker]

He led off the top of the 9th, right? Don't you need to PH for him with only a three-run lead and your closer warming up in the pen?

Criticizing Coop is just pointless armchair managing.

I think you pinch hit there with only a 3 run lead. Otherwise maybe you let Chacon go out with a tight leash and yank him if someone gets on.

[chuck]

I don't take a still effective pitcher out of a game just because there is another pitcher who is nominally the closer. I certainly don't make this change if I have noticed that the closer can't fucking get anyone out.

I don't know about you guys, but when I see a pattern emerge I don't simply hope that the pattern will randomly deviate in a matter helpful to me. I acknowledge the pattern and use the information available to modify my decisions.

[moriartp]

Coop made the right call. If I'd been managing, I'd have been tempted to run Chacon out there to see if he could finish it out.


That's why I don't manage.

[pots]

The only reason chacon should have come out is if he was laboring the inning prior, and he didn't.   He also had only thrown 109 pitches and has no career shutouts.   He deserved the chance to start the 9th and if someone gets on, then you bring in the closer.    

Cooper over managed the 9th inning.  

No he didn't.  Chacon has to pitch on Sunday.   You run him out there in the 9th and if he labors a bit he runs over 130 pitches.  The problem is solely in Valverde's court.  You are handed a 3 run lead and blow the save.  Then you come in on a 4 run lead and proceed to strike fear into that one.  Followed by failing to get 2 outs when handed a 3 run lead again.  The man is struggling.  I don't see any improvement.  This is extremely disturbing because the only option on the table at this point is to run him back out there next time.  

[matadorph]

He should have been in front of the plate, if the throw is off line it doesnt matter because the run ends the game period.  His setup inside the plate for his infield swipe tag no matter where that ball was going to be thrown.

So you're saying he should've just blocked the plate without any concern of receiving the ball? If he does that, he has no chance of tagging Jenkins. The play was very, very close BECAUSE OF BRAD.

[DVauthrin]

Since when is one pitching change, to bring in your closer, "overmanaging"?

Why would you go to any other pitcher when the guy on the bump is cruising through 8 innings?   Let him start the 9th, and go from there.     I think that was a time to show support for Shawn and trust him to get his first career shutout.    Not switch to your closer simply because it's a save situation, especially with valverde trying to find his groove right now.

Sure hindsight is 20-20, but I didn't like the move in the 9th from the start.    

[tophfar]

I don't know about you guys, but when I see a pattern emerge I don't simply hope that the pattern will randomly deviate in a matter helpful to me. I acknowledge the pattern and use the information available to modify my decisions.

What's the pattern, 2 weeks or all of last season?  There's all sorts of "patterns" depending on where you look.

[chuck]

Chacon was scheduled to bat second in the top of the ninth. In the highly improbable scenario that involves Ausmus getting on base I would possibly PH for Chacon. Otherwise, no.

[tophfar]

Sure hindsight is 20-20, but I didn't like the move in the 9th from the start.   

This is the problem with saying "i didnt like even before".  That assumes that the "right" decision to begin with is the one you decided on.  Just because he did something different, doesnt mean he did it wrong.

[mrpink]

Chacon was scheduled to bat second in the top of the ninth. In the highly improbable scenario that involves Ausmus getting on base I would possibly PH for Chacon. Otherwise, no.

I agree completely.  Especially when you're pinch hitter is Darin Erstad.

[chuck]

Just because he did something different, doesnt mean he did it wrong.

Unless you want to consider results.

[matadorph]

I need tequila.

That was a very tough loss to watch.

[awrr]

I don't take a still effective pitcher out of a game just because there is another pitcher who is nominally the closer. I certainly don't make this change if I have noticed that the closer can't fucking get anyone out.

I don't know about you guys, but when I see a pattern emerge I don't simply hope that the pattern will randomly deviate in a matter helpful to me. I acknowledge the pattern and use the information available to modify my decisions.

This just seems asinine to me.  Valverde's gotten about 18 guys out before tonight.  He was fresh after a day off, and it was a save situation against the top of the Philly order.

Chacon was starting to lose control in the 8th inning.  The radio guys noted that he wasn't spotting his pitches nearly as well.  I think he walked Bruntlett on 6 pitches after going up 0-2.  This was against the bottom of the Philly order.  What precisely is your definition of "still effective"?

I'm not seeing at all how Coop lost this game or made a stupid move.  I hope Valverde rediscovers his dominance soon.

[DVauthrin]

Since the strategy failed.

Bullshit.    Do I think it was a Larussa style blunder?   No.    Valverde should have done his job.   But you have a starting pitcher who is still at a reasonable pitch count, and has shut down a potent order for 8 innings.    He also has no career shutouts, and i'm sure he was chomping at the bit to try and get his first.    Show him you trust him and give him that shot.    

It's not an easy call for the manager, but considering the way he was throwing and he has no career shutouts, I would have let him bat for himself and start the 9th, then had valverde ready if he got in trouble.

[Bench]

what a horrible night. the bruins lost 1-0 and jose lidge blows another one. wandy and chacon should give this guy a beating. can't keep wasting great pitching with this clown.

Fuck the Bruins.

[DVauthrin]

His spot led off the top of the 9th, right? Don't you need to PH for him with only a three-run lead and your closer warming up in the pen?

Criticizing Coop is just pointless armchair managing.

His spot was 2nd in the 9th, and you don't need to pinch hit for him automatically in that situation.    It depends on how he's throwing.  

[tophfar]

Unless you want to consider results.

So any decision that results in a loss was the wrong one, and the ones that end in a win, are the only right ones?

[Bench]

His spot was 2nd in the 9th, and you don't need to pinch hit for him automatically in that situation.    It depends on how he's throwing.  

Evidently it doesn't.

There's nothing to criticize about pinch hitting in the bottom of the eigth in an attempt to extend the lead when you have your closer ready in the pen. This second guessing is asinine.

[tophfar]

Show him you trust him and give him that shot.   

Yes, because now Chacon is going to cry in his hotel room because Coop doesnt "trust" him?  Please.

[DVauthrin]

No he didn't.  Chacon has to pitch on Sunday.   You run him out there in the 9th and if he labors a bit he runs over 130 pitches.  The problem is solely in Valverde's court.  You are handed a 3 run lead and blow the save.  Then you come in on a 4 run lead and proceed to strike fear into that one.  Followed by failing to get 2 outs when handed a 3 run lead again.  The man is struggling.  I don't see any improvement.  This is extremely disturbing because the only option on the table at this point is to run him back out there next time.  

Every pitcher has to go every 5 days, lets just eliminate complete game shutouts then because we are so worried about the next start.    Your job is to win the game at hand, and the way he was throwing, he deserved to start the 9th inning and go for his first complete game shutout.    If he struggles to start the frame, go to valverde, not that hard.    

Just because it's a "save" situation doesn't mean you always have to go to the closer.   You go by the feel of the game.

[Arky Vaughan]

It's very difficult to make the case, based on the way pitchers are managed today, that pulling Chacon for Valverde was bad strategy. In fact, I'd guess it's rarer now that a manager would've left the starter in.

[Arky Vaughan]

Every pitcher has to go every 5 days, lets just eliminate complete game shutouts then because we are so worried about the next start.    Your job is to win the game at hand, and the way he was throwing, he deserved to start the 9th inning and go for his first complete game shutout.    If he struggles to start the frame, go to valverde, not that hard.    

Just because it's a "save" situation doesn't mean you always have to go to the closer.   You go by the feel of the game.

How do we know he didn't? Only Cooper knows what his feel of the game was.

[Bench]

Every pitcher has to go every 5 days, lets just eliminate complete game shutouts then because we are so worried about the next start.    Your job is to win the game at hand, and the way he was throwing, he deserved to start the 9th inning and go for his first complete game shutout.    If he struggles to start the frame, go to valverde, not that hard.    

Just because it's a "save" situation doesn't mean you always have to go to the closer.   You go by the feel of the game.

And the "feel of the game" was Chacon pitched a whopper of a game and now it's time to turn it over to the closer.

[matadorph]

Evidently it doesn't.

There's nothing to criticize about pinch hitting in the bottom of the eigth in an attempt to extend the lead when you have your closer ready in the pen. This second guessing is asinine.

I strongly agree. A three-run lead against the Phillies (with the meat of their lineup due up) isn't a certainty so you have to try to score more runs. I have no problem at all with Coop pinch-hitting for Chacon with Bourn and Loretta behind him.

Howard's play on Berkman's rocket turned out to be huge.

[DVauthrin]

Yes, because now Chacon is going to cry in his hotel room because Coop doesnt "trust" him?  Please.

Way to put words in my mouth.     Of course he won't.   But anybody who plays sports is a competitor, and i'm sure he wasn't thrilled when he was taken out with a chance to get a career milestone.    You live for those opportunities as a competitor.

This notion only a closer pitches the 9th inning in a situation like tonight is the asinine proposition.

[DVauthrin]

How do we know he didn't? Only Cooper knows what his feel of the game was.

That's true, but to me one guy reaching in the 8th inning is not enough for me to say the guy has lost it unless he was getting lucky on hard hit shots.    And sure cooper is damned if you do damned if you don't there, but i'm a proponent of letting your starter go for the shutout if he has the chance in most cases.

[MusicMan]

Unless you want to consider results.

This is technically referred to as "the worst kind of candy-assed second guessing".

[Bench]

...and i'm sure he wasn't thrilled when he was taken out with a chance to get a career milestone.

He seemed pretty happy in the dugout while Erstad was pinch hitting.

[DVauthrin]

And the "feel of the game" was Chacon pitched a whopper of a game and now it's time to turn it over to the closer.

I don't think it was feel as much as it was it's a save situation and he's my guy.     If it was 4-0, he leaves chacon in because it's not a save anymore.    Why should one run change his mind on who gives him a better chance to win the game?  

[tophfar]

Way to put words in my mouth.     Of course he won't.   But anybody who plays sports is a competitor, and i'm sure he wasn't thrilled when he was taken out with a chance to get a career milestone.    You live for those opportunities as a competitor.

This notion only a closer pitches the 9th inning in a situation like tonight is the asinine proposition.

Chacon is a professional and has been in the game plenty long enough to not have his vagina itch because he came out of the game.

And talk about words in the mouth, no one is saying only the closer pitches the 9th.  What we are saying is just because Chacon didnt, doesnt mean Coop fucked up.

[MusicMan]

I don't think it was feel as much as it was it's a save situation and he's my guy.     If it was 4-0, he leaves chacon in because it's not a save anymore.    Why should one run change his mind on who gives him a better chance to win the game?  

IS ANYONE considering how long it's been since Chacon went 8 innings in a game?

Coop made the right call by the book, and by his players.  Valverde fucked up.  It happens, play again tomorrow.

[DVauthrin]

He seemed pretty happy in the dugout while Erstad was pinch hitting.

I too saw that shot, but more than likely deep down he wanted the shot at the shutout.    Especially considering he has none in his career.   But he did handle getting pulled gracefully.

[Bench]

I don't think it was feel as much as it was it's a save situation and he's my guy.     If it was 4-0, he leaves chacon in because it's not a save anymore.    Why should one run change his mind on who gives him a better chance to win the game?  

You're forgetting that he took Chacon out in order to pinch hit in an attempt to extend the lead with the Phillies' meat of the order coming up in the bottom of the ninth. It wasn't a 4 run lead. There's this whole thing known as "context" that you are ignoring.

[tophfar]

I too saw that shot, but more than likely deep down he wanted the shot at the shutout.    Especially considering he has none in his career.   But he did handle getting pulled gracefully.

Thanks Pitcher Whisperer.

[Bench]

I too saw that shot, but more than likely deep down he wanted the shot at the shutout.    Especially considering he has none in his career.   But he did handle getting pulled gracefully.

You ought to open up a shop on Westheimer reading peoples' minds.

He wasn't "pulled" he was pinch hit for.

[DVauthrin]

You're forgetting that he took Chacon out in order to pinch hit in an attempt to extend the lead with the Phillies' meat of the order coming up in the bottom of the ninth. It wasn't a 4 run lead. There's this whole thing known as "context" that you are ignoring.

I'm not forgetting anything.   I know the context of the 9th inning and what his idea was in that situation.   I don't agree with pinch hitting him is all.  My perspective is would you pull a pitcher who has shut down that potent middle of the order for 8 innings for any other option in that situation?    Especially with how your closer has looked to this point in the year.   

At that point i'll take my chances with the guy throwing the gem with a 3 run lead even if it means losing an out in our half of the 9th.
 

[DVauthrin]

You ought to open up a shop on Westheimer reading peoples' minds.

He wasn't "pulled" he was pinch hit for.

Pulled/pinch hit for, same thing.   He one way or another was removed from the game, that was the point.   Arguing over semantics is silly.    I'm not exactly stepping out on a limb suggesting some part of chacon wanted the shot at the shutout.   It would be weird if he didn't.

[pots]

That's true, but to me one guy reaching in the 8th inning is not enough for me to say the guy has lost it unless he was getting lucky on hard hit shots.    And sure cooper is damned if you do damned if you don't there, but i'm a proponent of letting your starter go for the shutout if he has the chance in most cases.

You have a different memory of the 8th than me.  With one out in the 8th and the 100 pitch mark nearing he got ahead of Bruntlett 0-2 and proceeded to lose him.  3 run lead 1 out in the eighth.  Walking Bruntlett there was a sign he was tiring.  He did good getting Rollins, but then the next guy, Werth, took Bourn all the way to the wall.  A few feet farther and it's 3-2.  Signs were pointing to tiring.  The game was still close.  3 runs in Philly is a close game.  You try your best to tack on runs and bring in your best personel to lock it down.  I don't believe at that time it was Chacon.  Unforunately Valverde, the right guy for the job, blew the game. 

[DVauthrin]

You have a different memory of the 8th than me.  With one out in the 8th and the 100 pitch mark nearing he got ahead of Bruntlett 0-2 and proceeded to lose him.  3 run lead 1 out in the eighth.  Walking Bruntlett there was a sign he was tiring.  He did good getting Rollins, but then the next guy, Werth, took Bourn all the way to the wall.  A few feet farther and it's 3-2.  Signs were pointing to tiring.  The game was still close.  3 runs in Philly is a close game.  You try your best to tack on runs and bring in your best personel to lock it down.  I don't believe at that time it was Chacon.  Unforunately Valverde, the right guy for the job, blew the game. 

Considering that, then I amend my stance on whether he was laboring.   I still probably let him try to start the 9th but I can understand why cooper would think he's tiring.

[DVauthrin]

Bottom line is they need Roy to stop the bleeding and get them in a position to take the series thursday.