Pence

[JimR]

if a pitcher rolls the ball up there, i believe he will swing at it. will someone please explain to him the difference between being aggressive and swinging wildly?

[MusicMan]

Perhaps he should watch the guy hitting in front of him.

[SaltyParker]

Perhaps he should watch the guy hitting in front of him.

Perhaps he shouldn't be hitting 2nd in the order.

[MusicMan]

Perhaps he shouldn't be hitting 2nd in the order.

That's not a perhaps.

And if he was hitting 6th, he could learn a lot from watching Tejada.

[hostros7]

Perhaps he shouldn't be hitting 2nd in the order.

Why with Berkman out was Pence still hitting in the two hole?  If Pence is only a stop gap there until Kaz returns, why not drop him down to three and hit Loretta (or Perez in yesterday's case) second?  Personally I would rather have seen tejada move to the three and Pence down to the 5 with Erstad 6.  Fortunately, my opinions don't have any effect on the day to day operations of the club though.

[legs_of_eggs]

He's just in a funk, I think he let the first two games affect the next five as far as his approach. He's still young.

[JimR]

He's just in a funk, I think he let the first two games affect the next five as far as his approach. He's still young.

bs

[EasTexAstro]

Why with Berkman out was Pence still hitting in the two hole?  If Pence is only a stop gap there until Kaz returns, why not drop him down to three and hit Loretta (or Perez in yesterday's case) second?  Personally I would rather have seen tejada move to the three and Pence down to the 5 with Erstad 6.  Fortunately, my opinions don't have any effect on the day to day operations of the club though.

I'm probably incorrect, but my best guess has been that Cooper is trying to get bench players involved, but is also trying to keep players consistant in the lineup while they build confidence in their roles.

In other words, he has set his lineup, pretty much, and the players need to get used to where they are playing in that lineup. He doesn't want to move a bunch of people around just becuse someone gets a day off.

[pravata]

Why with Berkman out was Pence still hitting in the two hole?  If Pence is only a stop gap there until Kaz returns, why not drop him down to three and hit Loretta (or Perez in yesterday's case) second?  Personally I would rather have seen tejada move to the three and Pence down to the 5 with Erstad 6.  Fortunately, my opinions don't have any effect on the day to day operations of the club though.

Cooper said that, with pitchers, he likes to make clear to them what their roles will be.  He thinks that players play better when they understand what they are being asked to do.  I suspect he has the same feeling about position players.   Instead of moving Pence around during the couple weeks Kazuo is out, he's opted to let him hit 2nd.  He's not "hitting 2nd" though, that's just when his turn comes up in sequence. 

[hostros7]

Agreed, but if he is indeed moving Pence upon the return of Matsui then why waste the time trying to get him comfortable in the 2 hole and not send out the best line-up?  I mean, Pence has got to be moved from the second spot at some point if the approach he has shown continues, so I am at least hoping Kaz is slotted 2.

[das]

Agreed, but if he is indeed moving Pence upon the return of Matsui then why waste the time trying to get him comfortable in the 2 hole and not send out the best line-up?  I mean, Pence has got to be moved from the second spot at some point if the approach he has shown continues, so I am at least hoping Kaz is slotted 2.

Maybe it's because Pence said he'd prefer the 2-hole.  How much does a players desire usually come into play in a manager's decisions like this?  Hunter is not doing much with his chance to make Coop think this would be a good long term solution with Matsui moving down to 7.

[hostros7]

I was trying to pull up a pitches per at bat stat for Hunter.  MLB.com doesn't seem to have the functionality.  Anyone know a site that allows you to get that level of granularity?

[JimR]

Agreed, but if he is indeed moving Pence upon the return of Matsui then why waste the time trying to get him comfortable in the 2 hole and not send out the best line-up?  I mean, Pence has got to be moved from the second spot at some point if the approach he has shown continues, so I am at least hoping Kaz is slotted 2.

WTF? "COMFORTABLE IN THE 2 HOLE?"

i am talking about swinging wildly at pitches out of the strike zone.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

WTF? "COMFORTABLE IN THE 2 HOLE?"

i am talking about swinging wildly at pitches out of the strike zone.

Jim, you are obviously failing to apply cliches and anecdotes to an actual problem.  If a guy is showing poor strikezone judgement => He's not comfortable.  Perhaps offer him a chair or a foot rub after he strikes out or pop's up harmlessly.

If a guy is "comfortable in the 2 hole" (NTTAWWT) but not succeeding =>   he needs to find his happy place.  Be one with the baseball... be the ball... I am the baseball...


Or one could just conclude that when the presumptive 2-hitter went down with "anal-fissures", Cooper went with Plan B, run the guy who held down that spot last year, despite not being ideal for that role.  The result, Hunter is hitting 2nd, where he had success.  He's young and relatively inexperienced.  Of course he likes hitting in front of Berkman, Lee, and Torpedo Boat.  He's done it before, with some success.  Is that where he's best suited?  No.  Do you jack with the lineup right away?  No, you give him time to adjust and try to contribute in that role, waiting until the guy you signed as an FA, to fill that specific role, is healthy again. 

Knee Jerk reactions... seven games in and people are itching to hit the panic button....

[JimR]

Jim, you are obviously failing to apply cliches and anecdotes to an actual problem.  If a guy is showing poor strikezone judgement => He's not comfortable.  Perhaps offer him a chair or a foot rub after he strikes out or pop's up harmlessly.

If a guy is "comfortable in the 2 hole" (NTTAWWT) but not succeeding =>   he needs to find his happy place.  Be one with the baseball... be the ball... I am the baseball...


Or one could just conclude that when the presumptive 2-hitter went down with "anal-fissures", Cooper went with Plan B, run the guy who held down that spot last year, despite not being ideal for that role.  The result, Hunter is hitting 2nd, where he had success.  He's young and relatively inexperienced.  Of course he likes hitting in front of Berkman, Lee, and Torpedo Boat.  He's done it before, with some success.  Is that where he's best suited?  No.  Do you jack with the lineup right away?  No, you give him time to adjust and try to contribute in that role, waiting until the guy you signed as an FA, to fill that specific role, is healthy again. 

Knee Jerk reactions... seven games in and people are itching to hit the panic button....

one more fucking time: i do not care if he is hitting in the 2 hole or in the 222 hole. he is swinging wildly at everything the pitcher aims in the general direction of the catcher.

[Duke]

one more fucking time: i do not care if he is hitting in the 2 hole or in the 222 hole. he is swinging wildly at everything the pitcher aims in the general direction of the catcher.

He really doesn't have a clue up there.  It looks like he is guessing pitches and guessing wrong.  Maybe the league has figured out his trouble with the breaking pitch.  He is lunging at pitches and is totally off balance.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

one more fucking time: i do not care if he is hitting in the 2 hole or in the 222 hole. he is swinging wildly at everything the pitcher aims in the general direction of the catcher.

I didn't make myself clear.  His pitch identification/approach/judgement of the strikezone seems pretty damn poor so far.  Like you said, he's swinging at just about anything.  Why, I can't say.  The only other thing I'll add is regardless of the results, I suspect he's going to stay in the lineup for the forseeable future.  Too many non-baseball factors at play (read "Pam's Call"), not that I'd say it's time to sit him just yet.  Once Matsui is back, I will not be surprised if the initial plan is put in place, with Matsui hitting second, taking some pressure off Pence and putting him in a position in the lineup where he will either adjust or more importantly, not slow the offense.  Anyway, your point still stands, he's lost up there as far as I can tell.  All I was trying to say was that the cliches are coming out to diagnose/defend his performance.  If he were a pitcher, they'd be questioning whether he was tipping his pitches.

Personally, I made a point this year to not have any expectations so watching how the young position players respond/develop is half the reason I'm watching this season (along with Bourn and Towles).  Appropos of nothing, the other reason I'm watching is to see if the young pitchers progress in their development.  7 games in, it's a mixed bag, but it's still better than watching the NBA. 

[hillbillyken]

Maybe if he had some one like uh I don't know........the great Morgan Ensberg to teach him the strike zone? Wait on a pitch? Work a count?

[juliogotay]

I didn't make myself clear.  His pitch identification/approach/judgement of the strikezone seems pretty damn poor so far.  Like you said, he's swinging at just about anything.  Why, I can't say.  The only other thing I'll add is regardless of the results, I suspect he's going to stay in the lineup for the forseeable future.  Too many non-baseball factors at play (read "Pam's Call"), not that I'd say it's time to sit him just yet.  Once Matsui is back, I will not be surprised if the initial plan is put in place, with Matsui hitting second, taking some pressure off Pence and putting him in a position in the lineup where he will either adjust or more importantly, not slow the offense.  Anyway, your point still stands, he's lost up there as far as I can tell.  All I was trying to say was that the cliches are coming out to diagnose/defend his performance.  If he were a pitcher, they'd be questioning whether he was tipping his pitches.

Personally, I made a point this year to not have any expectations so watching how the young position players respond/develop is half the reason I'm watching this season (along with Bourn and Towles).  Appropos of nothing, the other reason I'm watching is to see if the young pitchers progress in their development.  7 games in, it's a mixed bag, but it's still better than watching the NBA. 

Young pitchers develop? Who are you watching other than Wright?

[pravata]

Maybe if he had some one like uh I don't know........the great Morgan Ensberg to teach him the strike zone? Wait on a pitch? Work a count?

there is an in-between

[Mr. Happy]

Pence had better learn that they're not going to throw him first pitch strikes until he shows some ability to lay off of them. The way that Pence is going right now, I wouldn't throw him a single strike.

[Andyzipp]

Pence had better learn that they're not going to throw him first pitch strikes until he shows some ability to lay off of them. The way that Pence is going right now, I wouldn't throw him a single strike.

And that's not just based on your lack of ability...!

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Young pitchers develop? Who are you watching other than Wright?

I was thinking of Backe, Wandy, and Sampson.  Young is relative.  All three are younger than me so they are "young pitchers". 

[Mr. Happy]

And that's not just based on your lack of ability...!

So I should have written "I wcouldn't throw him a single strike?

[Andyzipp]

So I should have written "I wcouldn't throw him a single strike?

I keed!

[Mr. Happy]

I keed!

Today, with a stenosis in c5/c6 and a torn labrum that I've chosen not to have fixed for now, I doubt that I could throw, much less throw a strike.

[VirtualBob]

Young is relative.  All three are younger than me so they are "young pitchers". 

Young may be relative, but as your perspective changes you will discover that "younger than me" becomes an increasingly all-encompassing category with very little value in making distinctions.

[SaltyParker]

Why with Berkman out was Pence still hitting in the two hole?  If Pence is only a stop gap there until Kaz returns, why not drop him down to three and hit Loretta (or Perez in yesterday's case) second?  Personally I would rather have seen tejada move to the three and Pence down to the 5 with Erstad 6.  Fortunately, my opinions don't have any effect on the day to day operations of the club though.

I agree with everything that you say here. Sounds very rational.

[pots]

Maybe it's because Pence said he'd prefer the 2-hole.  How much does a players desire usually come into play in a manager's decisions like this?  Hunter is not doing much with his chance to make Coop think this would be a good long term solution with Matsui moving down to 7.

If this is what comfortable looks like, let's try something different.  I think the standard thing to do would be to move him down in the batting order and say it is to take some of the pressure off of him.  You know with his drive he'll be hitting the cages, bugging everybody for advice until he figures it out. So I'm not concerned that sooner or late he will figure it out. 

[pravata]

I think it's painfully obvious that the League has figured out our Mr Pence.  First pitch swinging gets first pitch junk. 

[MusicMan]

Any pitcher that throws him a FB right now should face malpractice charges.

[jaklewein]

I think it's painfully obvious that the League has figured out our Mr Pence.  First pitch swinging gets first pitch junk. 

Yep.  JD pointed out as much, hinting that he's way overdue for his own set of adjustments. 

[Mr. Happy]

Any pitcher that throws him a FB strike right now should face malpractice charges.

FIFY