Author Topic: BP NL Central preview up  (Read 10617 times)

MusicMan

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BP NL Central preview up
« on: February 12, 2008, 10:17:27 am »
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Houston Astros

Where: Kissimmee, Florida (Grapefruit League)
2007 record: 73-89 (4th, NL Central)
New guys: Reggie Abercrombie, Michael Bourn, Doug Brocail, Jack Cassel, Darin Erstad, Geoff Geary, Kazuo Matsui, Chad Paronto, Miguel Tejada, Jose Valverde, Oscar Villarreal
Gone guys: Matt Albers, Josh Anderson, Craig Biggio, Eric Bruntlett, Chris Burke, Adam Everett, Jason Jennings, Mike Lamb, Brad Lidge, Mark Loretta, Trever Miller, Brian Moehler (NRI), Eric Munson, Orlando Palmeiro, Troy Patton, Chad Qualls, Luke Scott
Wow, he’s still here? Are you kidding? Look at that list of “gone guys.” Anyone who might have been disappeared was.
Winter grade: C. Getting Tejada for a package of middling prospects wasn’t a bad idea. Letting Adam Everett go so that he could play shortstop, rather than third base, was. Trading Brad Lidge for a true center fielder wasn’t a bad idea. Adding Darin Erstad after that was. It was that kind of offseason, a mix of decent primary moves and bad secondary ones.
NRI to watch: Tommy Manzella can play shortstop nearly as well as the departed Everett did. It’s not likely that Cecil Cooper will keep him around to caddy for Tejada, but if you’re down in Kissimmee and get the chance to see him play, do so.
Job battle to track: Is this the year that someone other than Brad Ausmus catches a majority of Astros games? J.R. Towles’ big cup of coffee in September created that hope. Keep in mind, though, that a year ago Towles was a 23-year-old who’d yet to make it out of A ball. He does have good defensive tools, ones that should help him stay in the lineup even if his bat slips back to the .270-with-doubles level.
One move to make: Like the Reds, the Astros have a steep dropoff in the rotation, only theirs occurs between #1 and #2. Roy Oswalt is an ace on anyone’s staff; Wandy Rodriguez is a #3/#4. Here, he’s starting the second game of the season. The Astros don’t have the kind of trade bait to acquire someone to fill that gap, nor does that pitcher exist in the market. Their move to make involves cloning.

By edict from ownership, Astros’ GM Ed Wade played his hand this winter as if he had a contending team that just needed sprucing up, making a big move for a star, swapping out one closer and bringing in another, and signing a free agent to fill a hole. The problem is that even if those moves made the Astros five games better, that still only gets them to .500. Of the 11 roster spots spent on pitchers, only Oswalt, Valverde and maybe Rodriguez are more than filler. Two years ago, this roster might have worked in a weak division. Now, it’s just not good enough.

Joe Sheehan

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 10:36:19 am »
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Gone guys: ...Craig Biggio...

That's gonna take some getting used to.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 10:39:35 am »
I guess I can't disagree too much with any of it. I think the evaluation of the rotation downplays Backe and Woody too much, but it probably gives too much credit to Wandy, so we'll call it even. Filing Loretta under "gone" seems... off. Otherwise, not much meat, but pretty fair.
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MusicMan

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 10:40:44 am »
I guess I can't disagree too much with any of it. I think the evaluation of the rotation downplays Backe and Woody too much, but it probably gives too much credit to Wandy, so we'll call it even. Filing Loretta under "gone" seems... off. Otherwise, not much meat, but pretty fair.

My reaction was one of shock - that BP was not ripping the Astros without thought, and in fact, seemed to have a decent assessment of reality.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 10:50:00 am »
The first thing I thought after reading this was, "Wow, this division is going to be bad."

I hope the Astros can beat up on the Cubs and Reds this year, and maybe squeeze their way into a playoff spot.  It seems possible in this division.  Glad they're not in the AL Central!

My reaction was one of shock - that BP was not ripping the Astros without thought, and in fact, seemed to have a decent assessment of reality.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 11:13:05 am »
The Astros have the 2nd best lineup in the NL.  I'm very amused/(pissed) that commentators are stressed that the Astros gave up Everett.  When he was on the team he was dragging the team down.  In the next logic twisting breath he mentions Tommy Manzella as nearly as good as Everett.  Where's the loss?  And complaining about Erstad, the 25th player, is inexplicable.  Sure the pitching is an issue, but they had a plan going in and they stuck to it.  This is a completely new team from last season, speculating on +5 wins or making any specific prediction on their record is filler for these pre season predictors' columns.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 11:25:21 am »
Brilliant post,prav. BP always has some agenda working.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 11:27:37 am »
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Winter grade: C. Getting Tejada for a package of middling prospects wasn’t a bad idea. Letting Adam Everett go so that he could play shortstop, rather than third base, was. Trading Brad Lidge for a true center fielder wasn’t a bad idea. Adding Darin Erstad after that was. It was that kind of offseason, a mix of decent primary moves and bad secondary ones.

I'd rather have a mix of decent primary moves and bad secondary ones than a mix of bad primary moves and decent secondary ones. Is Erstad even guaranteed to make the team?

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 11:29:03 am »
The Astros have the 2nd best lineup in the NL.  I'm very amused/(pissed) that commentators are stressed that the Astros gave up Everett.  When he was on the team he was dragging the team down.  In the next logic twisting breath he mentions Tommy Manzella as nearly as good as Everett.  Where's the loss?  And complaining about Erstad, the 25th player, is inexplicable.  Sure the pitching is an issue, but they had a plan going in and they stuck to it.  This is a completely new team from last season, speculating on +5 wins or making any specific prediction on their record is filler for these pre season predictors' columns.
In his mind, I think he considered acquiring Erstad as nearly equitable to acquiring Tejada as part of his "winter grade" evaluation.  And he gave the team a C.  I don't think Erstad is going to have quite the same impact.

On a tangent, is there any word on whether Backe will be ready to go, full-strength, on opening day or not?
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 11:33:43 am »

On a tangent, is there any word on whether Backe will be ready to go, full-strength, on opening day or not?

It is expected that he will be.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5484633.html

"If you want to knock it down to numbers, I can easily start off with 30 starts and 200 innings," Backe said. "I believe if I can do that, my ability will give the Astros what they need."

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 11:50:03 am »
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He does have good defensive tools, ones that should help him stay in the lineup even if his bat slips back to the .270-with-doubles level.

Slips back to?  Isn't that pretty good production out of the 7/8 spot?

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 11:52:05 am »
I've heard this criticism of Towles' potential several times now, that he may not hit a bunch of homers or something, but he can still be functional, hitting .270ish with gap power, plate discipline & good defense.  That pretty much makes you a top-10 catcher in MLB.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 11:53:13 am »
The Astros have the 2nd best lineup in the NL.  I'm very amused/(pissed) that commentators are stressed that the Astros gave up Everett.  When he was on the team he was dragging the team down.  In the next logic twisting breath he mentions Tommy Manzella as nearly as good as Everett.  Where's the loss?  And complaining about Erstad, the 25th player, is inexplicable.  Sure the pitching is an issue, but they had a plan going in and they stuck to it.  This is a completely new team from last season, speculating on +5 wins or making any specific prediction on their record is filler for these pre season predictors' columns.

"Filler" is certainly the right word. I should've pointed it out, but my thought when reading it was that this kind of preview calling most of the Astros' rotation filler is very much the pot calling the kettle black. It passes the time without doing much damage, but...
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 12:00:28 pm »
The Astros have the 2nd best lineup in the NL.  I'm very amused/(pissed) that commentators are stressed that the Astros gave up Everett.  When he was on the team he was dragging the team down.  In the next logic twisting breath he mentions Tommy Manzella as nearly as good as Everett.  Where's the loss?  And complaining about Erstad, the 25th player, is inexplicable.  Sure the pitching is an issue, but they had a plan going in and they stuck to it.  This is a completely new team from last season, speculating on +5 wins or making any specific prediction on their record is filler for these pre season predictors' columns.

You can add to your good post the following: Pitchers, very good ones, become available at the trading deadline.  A team with Houston's lineup can make them buyers at the trading deadline instead of sellers.  If that's the case and they get a quality arm or even two (instead of spending the money now on average pitchers such as Kyle Lohse), the +5 games equation is out the window... quickly.

See: Astros 1998, Houston as an example of what a good lineup that needs a good to great pitcher can do at the trading deadline.

pravata

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 12:03:13 pm »
"Filler" is certainly the right word. I should've pointed it out, but my thought when reading it was that this kind of preview calling most of the Astros' rotation filler is very much the pot calling the kettle black. It passes the time without doing much damage, but...

In a way the Astros hope the starters are "filler".  Fill 5-6 innings every night.  (Except Roy) The plan is to be up 6-4 in the 6th and trust the bullpen.  Instead of previous seasons, down 2-0 and hope to come back.  For me, this will take some getting used to.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2008, 01:25:33 pm »
Wow.  First preview not to mention the "Ed Wade was a failure in Philly!!!" angle.  Kudos for that if nothing else.  I also don't get why he's harping on the second-tier moves, especially when he's ignoring the possible resurgence of Backe.  Did no one else watch the 2005 playoffs?
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Froback

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2008, 01:50:32 pm »
See: Astros 1998, Houston as an example of what a good lineup that needs a good to great pitcher can do at the trading deadline.
I think his point here is that they don't have the trade chips to get that pitcher at the deadline.  (ie to compete with others who might be trying to land the same pitcher)

In a way the Astros hope the starters are "filler".  Fill 5-6 innings every night.  (Except Roy) The plan is to be up 6-4 in the 6th and trust the bullpen.  Instead of previous seasons, down 2-0 and hope to come back.  For me, this will take some getting used to.
The problem with this is that eventually the bullpen will be overworked at that pace.  Or at least that is the theory.  Actually the bullpen had 507 IP last year which is just over 3 IP per game.  And that was pretty close to ML average.  So maybe it isn't unreasonable if the starters do average 6 IP per start, but problems might occur if they slide too close to 5 IP/start instead.

Wow.  First preview not to mention the "Ed Wade was a failure in Philly!!!" angle.  Kudos for that if nothing else.  I also don't get why he's harping on the second-tier moves, especially when he's ignoring the possible resurgence of Backe.  Did no one else watch the 2005 playoffs?
I like Backe too and I have high expectations, however he has yet to really pitch a full season without some type of significant injury (or recovery from).  Also the 2005 playoffs could be written off as just a hot streak and not the norm.  I think it does show what he is capable of, so that is why I am hopeful too.  Plus I think it would be the perfect story if he can rise to that level on a consistent basis.  But I understand skepticism on this area as well.

The truth is, the Astros have a many more questions than solid answers right now.  If they all work out right, this team could win 100 games, IMO.  Rarely does the perfect storm hit though.  So given the expectation of issues to occur, I would guess it more realistic to put them at 85 wins with a +/- of 15 games depending on how things do or don't work out.  There are teams in the NL Central with (at least at this point) more certainty than the Astros, thus writers find it easy to dismiss what could be for the Astros, and remain skeptical.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2008, 01:53:32 pm »
I think his point here is that they don't have the trade chips to get that pitcher at the deadline.  (ie to compete with others who might be trying to land the same pitcher)
The problem with this is that eventually the bullpen will be overworked at that pace.  Or at least that is the theory.  Actually the bullpen had 507 IP last year which is just over 3 IP per game.  And that was pretty close to ML average.  So maybe it isn't unreasonable if the starters do average 6 IP per start, but problems might occur if they slide too close to 5 IP/start instead.
I like Backe too and I have high expectations, however he has yet to really pitch a full season without some type of significant injury (or recovery from).  Also the 2005 playoffs could be written off as just a hot streak and not the norm.  I think it does show what he is capable of, so that is why I am hopeful too.  Plus I think it would be the perfect story if he can rise to that level on a consistent basis.  But I understand skepticism on this area as well.

The truth is, the Astros have a many more questions than solid answers right now.  If they all work out right, this team could win 100 games, IMO.  Rarely does the perfect storm hit though.  So given the expectation of issues to occur, I would guess it more realistic to put them at 85 wins with a +/- of 15 games depending on how things do or don't work out.  There are teams in the NL Central with (at least at this point) more certainty than the Astros, thus writers find it easy to dismiss what could be for the Astros, and remain skeptical.

couldn't you find anyone else to disagree with in your post?
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2008, 01:55:48 pm »
I also don't get why he's harping on the second-tier moves, especially when he's ignoring the possible resurgence of Backe.  Did no one else watch the 2005 playoffs?

2.5 years and elbow surgery ago. I'll need more than a month of starts to call it a resurgence.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2008, 02:01:32 pm »
couldn't you find anyone else to disagree with in your post?
Feeling left out?  I will see what I can do next time.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2008, 02:31:32 pm »
Feeling left out?  I will see what I can do next time.

Nahhhh... he's fearing the infinite loop you just opened up on the forum!  Here we go:

What do you mean "no bargaining chips"?  Did you see what the Mets paid for Santana?

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2008, 02:36:15 pm »
Feeling left out?  I will see what I can do next time.

no, that's ok. i'll just be content to read your posts explaining what other posters meant or should have said.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2008, 02:46:12 pm »
Slips back to?  Isn't that pretty good production out of the 7/8 spot?


that was exactly my response.  a rookie starting catcher who hits .270 with gap power would be pretty nice.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2008, 02:47:19 pm »
that was exactly my response.  a rookie starting catcher who hits .270 with gap power would be pretty nice.

if he can also play defense like Ausmus says he can, he'll be an All Star.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2008, 03:00:44 pm »
if he can also play defense like Ausmus says he can, he'll be an All Star.
Just one more productive player out of that "crappy" farm system...

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2008, 03:05:30 pm »
Just one more productive player out of that "crappy" farm system...

exactly. look at the names on the roster. where did most of the young players come from--Mars?
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MusicMan

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2008, 03:20:32 pm »
exactly. look at the names on the roster. where did most of the young players come from--Mars?

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2008, 03:27:13 pm »
Taking a look at the Astros roster, I see 6 players on the team that came up through the Astro system.  (Obviously, you can construct a team that has more home grown players.  I didn't include Nieve or Paulino who could make the team.  But the team below is probably close.)  Obviously, some of the players came to the Astros through trades of players who were in the Astros system.  But at present, there are 6.  Compare this to the Yankees -- the most notorious signer of free agents -- who have 8 players on their team that came up through the farm system (Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Pettitte).  So do the Astros have more or less than most teams?

Towles -- Astros farm system
Berkman -- Astros farm system
Matsui -- free agent
Tejada -- free agent
Wigginton -- trade
Lee -- free agent
Bourn -- trade
Pence -- Astros farm system

Loretta -- free agent
Blum -- free agent
Erstad -- free agent
Ausmus -- free agent
Cruz Jr. -- free agent

Oswalt -- Astros farm system
Backe -- trade
Rodriguez -- Astros farm system
Williams -- free agent
Sampson -- Astros farm system

Valverde -- trade
Brocail -- free agent
Villareal -- trade
Geary -- trade
Cassell -- free agent
Poronto -- free agent
Boom!

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2008, 03:33:05 pm »
Taking a look at the Astros roster, I see 6 players on the team that came up through the Astro system.  (Obviously, you can construct a team that has more home grown players.  I didn't include Nieve or Paulino who could make the team.  But the team below is probably close.)  Obviously, some of the players came to the Astros through trades of players who were in the Astros system.  But at present, there are 6.  Compare this to the Yankees -- the most notorious signer of free agents -- who have 8 players on their team that came up through the farm system (Posada, Jeter, Rivera, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Pettitte).  So do the Astros have more or less than most teams?

Towles -- Astros farm system
Berkman -- Astros farm system
Matsui -- free agent
Tejada -- free agent
Wigginton -- trade
Lee -- free agent
Bourn -- trade
Pence -- Astros farm system

Loretta -- free agent
Blum -- free agent
Erstad -- free agent
Ausmus -- free agent
Cruz Jr. -- free agent

Oswalt -- Astros farm system
Backe -- trade
Rodriguez -- Astros farm system
Williams -- free agent
Sampson -- Astros farm system

Valverde -- trade
Brocail -- free agent
Villareal -- trade
Geary -- trade
Cassell -- free agent
Poronto -- free agent

The Astros acquired their star players via trade and most of the trade fodder was from the farm system: Albers, Patton, Scott (yes, even Luke Scott), Josh Anderson, Juan Gutierrez, et. al.  So while the Yanquis have more on their 25 man roster, the Astros traded away more than the Yankees did to acquire everyday veteran players.

Do they have more to trade?  Juneberno who may become the next JR Towles or Hunter Pence in the Astros system this year;

Sergio Perez
Felipe Paulino
Sammy Gervacio
et. al.

What the Astros lack is those slobber inducing high prospects one gets when they draft high and give out insane bonus money.  If that is what the Astros system is knocked around about, then they're doing fine as a system that produces players to help the team win at the major league level.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2008, 03:33:24 pm »
Towles -- Astros farm system
Berkman -- Astros farm system
Matsui -- free agent
Tejada -- free agent; no, traded for Astro farm system prospects
Wigginton -- trade for Wheeler, who was acquired with a farm system prospect
Lee -- free agent
Bourn -- trade for Brad Lidge, a farm system product
Pence -- Astros farm system

Loretta -- free agent
Blum -- free agent
Erstad -- free agent
Ausmus -- free agent
Cruz Jr. -- free agent

Oswalt -- Astros farm system
Backe -- trade
Rodriguez -- Astros farm system
Williams -- free agent
Sampson -- Astros farm system

Valverde -- trade for 3 homegrown players
Brocail -- free agent
Villareal -- trade for farm system prospect
Geary -- trade for Lidge, as above
Cassell -- free agent
Poronto -- free agent

That better represents the results of this farm system.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2008, 03:36:28 pm »
That better represents the results of this farm system.

excellent
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2008, 03:42:29 pm »
That better represents the results of this farm system.

And the Astros could have 1 or 2 more in the bullpen, eg, McLemore and Paulino.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2008, 03:51:06 pm »
That better represents the results of this farm system.

Indeed, very nice. And let's stretch it out to include one more - Backe was acquired for Geoff Blum, who was acquired for Chris Truby. That covers every trade on the list, leaving only the free agents without ties to the farm system, which is obvious.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2008, 03:57:54 pm »
That better represents the results of this farm system.

Yeah, I said that in my post.  See -- "Obviously, some of the players came to the Astros through trades of players who were in the Astros system."   But most teams aren't made up entirely of free agents -- not even the Yankees or the Red Sox.  So most teams can ultimately point to their farm system and say that their system produced players who are in the major leagues.  

I wonder if you can measure a team's farm system by analyzing how many of their players made the major leagues and then stayed in the majors for x amount of time?  Or measure a team's farm system by analyzing how many of their players who made the major leagues had statistics over a certain measure.

  
Boom!

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2008, 04:00:11 pm »
That covers every trade on the list, leaving only the free agents without ties to the farm system, which is obvious.

Exactly ... I was wondering how long it would be before we reached this "obvious" conclusion.  Ultimately, there are only two sources for MLB talent ... the farm and free agency.  The only time a trade would not be credited to the farm, is if they were to trade a FA before the contract is up, and that is relatively rare.  In any case, unless we are going to trade the mascot or the bat boy, "trade" is not an ultimate source of talent.
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MusicMan

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2008, 04:00:17 pm »
Indeed, very nice. And let's stretch it out to include one more - Backe was acquired for Geoff Blum, who was acquired for Chris Truby. That covers every trade on the list, leaving only the free agents without ties to the farm system, which is obvious.

Thanks, I couldn't remember how we got Blum.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2008, 04:06:38 pm »
I wonder if you can measure a team's farm system by analyzing how many of their players made the major leagues and then stayed in the majors for x amount of time?  Or measure a team's farm system by analyzing how many of their players who made the major leagues had statistics over a certain measure.

Or you can measure a team's farm system by analyzing their cumulative volume in cubic feet. Or drams. We could even make a contest out of it, like the race for the lid. These are all valid ideas.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2008, 04:12:30 pm »
Or you can measure a team's farm system by analyzing their cumulative volume in cubic feet. Or drams. We could even make a contest out of it, like the race for the lid. These are all valid ideas.

Which gets back to the original point.  Presumably, the people who rate farm systems don't just say how many players from this farm system are going to make the major leagues -- either with their team or another team -- which is what I think some people were trying to imply here -- that the Astros farm system can't get such a low rating based upon the number of players who are on the team.  Rather, you have to project talent.

How many players from the Astros recent farm system have turned into really productive players?

How many players from the Astros current farm system project as really productive players?
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2008, 04:13:31 pm »
Or you can measure a team's farm system by analyzing their cumulative volume in cubic feet. Or drams. We could even make a contest out of it, like the race for the lid. These are all valid ideas.

The best part would be staring at the results.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2008, 04:15:57 pm »
The best part would be staring at the results.

Is this one of those things whee you stare until you cross your eyes and see the hidden 3-D image?
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2008, 04:16:19 pm »
Which gets back to the original point.  Presumably, the people who rate farm systems don't just say how many players from this farm system are going to make the major leagues -- either with their team or another team --

It is, generally, all about perceived talent, which again has nothing to do with how a team sees the talent and wants to use it or why it would want to acquire it.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2008, 04:43:37 pm »
Which gets back to the original point.  Presumably, the people who rate farm systems don't just say how many players from this farm system are going to make the major leagues -- either with their team or another team -- which is what I think some people were trying to imply here -- that the Astros farm system can't get such a low rating based upon the number of players who are on the team.  Rather, you have to project talent.

How many players from the Astros recent farm system have turned into really productive players?

How many players from the Astros current farm system project as really productive players?


Those who rate systems use performance metrics and number of high prospects on the list of said farm system.  That supposedly translates into major league talent waiting to happen.  But remember how Houston had the knock on it in the Gerry Hunsicker days of holding down minor league talent in the farm too long?  The Astros, in those days, were rated high as a farm system (even won a "Minor League System of the Year" award), the major league team was already stocked with players: Biggio, Bell, Bagwell, et. al., so you could keep kids down in the farm longer.  And fans hated Hunsicker for doing that.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

How was a minor leaguer going to crack that sort of major league talent producing well at the major league level?  Answer: they don't.  So they win at the minor league level and produce championships and praise from farm system raters.  Also makes for some interesting situations for kids like Russ Johnson.  Remember him?  Yeah, a one time legit prospect with Houston who could not crack the major league levels because of the outstanind producing talent at the highest levels that was holding him down in the farm.  He was livid at Gerry Hunsicker, who refused to trade him because he was great insurance down in New Orleans.  Gator Johnson was also getting a bit long of tooth in AAA and annoyed at not getting a chance, even as a reserve (which Gerry again was hesitant to do to an everyday player like Johnson).  You know, having a Gator Johnson down at AAA playing some outstanding baseball with the likes of Lance Berkman, Daryle Ward and others produces some championships and high praise from Baseball America, but it defeats the purpose of why they're in the farm system to begin with: to become major league talent.  So, does farm system ratings really mean anything?  Yes, primarily to the raters themselves who sell their product to the fans who love to read this stuff.  I admit I like to read it too. 

But honestly, to a major league club, it may mean many different things:

1. They have to fix a "development" problem.
2. They have to fix a "drafting/talent evaluation" problem.
3. Prospects had a year off because of a number of things: injury, learning new pitches, mechanic adjustments, playing at a higher level than you would usually expect them to play, et. al.

Houston went out and hired Bobby Heck.  What does that tell you?  It tells you that they want to get better at talent evaluation, so they considered that a minor fix they needed to make.  Development?  They moved Dewey Robinson up to the major league club who has traditionally been the minor league development guru for pitchers.  All the arms that have come through the Houston organization, to a man, will tell you how well founded Robinson's Pitching Bible (co-authored by the late Vern Ruhle) was in their development.  So they have no fear that everyone in development understands what to do now and will continue that work in the minors.  So an adjustment in talent evaluation, an adjustment in development, both of which are minor moves, not huge overhauls (think Blue Jays firing all their scouts and revamping their entire system).

If Houston was as dire as farm system rating systems say they are, then I would expect more than minor adjustments, I'd expect major overhauls like what happened in Toronto.  So that tells me that the major league club expects to have the major league talent produce and in the future expects the development of the young arms to continue.  They also expect better talent evaluation to lead to more prospects identified at drafting positions that Houston usually finds itself (not this year, they are drafting quite high and often... this is where Heck should shine).   So while many will call it a problem, some will call it an opportunity.

I doubt many will call it a lost cause.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 04:53:44 pm by Noe in Austin »

Jacksonian

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2008, 04:53:50 pm »
(not this year, they are drafting quite high and often... this is where Heck should shine). 

Should be picks #10, #38, ~#56, ~#87, ~#110 through the third round supplemental.  (~ = there are a couple more type B's left)
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2008, 04:54:05 pm »
We seem to have started a parallel thread over here:  http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104913.0
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2008, 05:06:03 pm »
Should be picks #10, #38, ~#56, ~#87, ~#110 through the third round supplemental.  (~ = there are a couple more type B's left)

Just those five picks alone could produce some very interesting situations for Houston and their farm system.  Bobby Heck is supposed to be a real good person at identifying talent and making it happen for the club.  The bonus money will still be a problem but you can hedge your bet with a Bobby Heck telling you that you're not buying another Chris Burke bonus baby this time around.

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2008, 05:35:06 pm »
Just those five picks alone could produce some very interesting situations for Houston and their farm system.  Bobby Heck is supposed to be a real good person at identifying talent and making it happen for the club.  The bonus money will still be a problem but you can hedge your bet with a Bobby Heck telling you that you're not buying another Chris Burke bonus baby this time around.

An issue.  That 2001 draft class, esp at the upper levels, was not good.  This year's draft pool is shaping up to be one of the deeper, more talented classes of the decade.  The biggest issues, IMO, are bonus demands and Boras clients who could be top 10-15 level talent.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2008, 05:41:26 pm »
Drayton should have lots of leftover cash from last year's draft pool.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2008, 05:58:18 pm »
Drayton should have lots of leftover cash from last year's draft pool.

Ha.  Ther real question is if, and if so how often and by how much, he'll be willing to break slot to sign the draftees, assuming it'll be necessary to do so to sign any of them.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2008, 06:20:40 pm »
An issue.  That 2001 draft class, esp at the upper levels, was not good.  This year's draft pool is shaping up to be one of the deeper, more talented classes of the decade.  The biggest issues, IMO, are bonus demands and Boras clients who could be top 10-15 level talent.

If you're not willing to overspend, and yes giving money of that caliber to kids who may not become major leaguers is overspending (and something that irks veteran players who had to prove themselves), then you evaluate talent or do more of the search and evaluate where others rarely go.  IOW - if Bobby Heck is able to identify a diamond in the rough playing for Poedunk U., he can say to his bosses "this guy will be a great major leaguer and cost a lot less to sign".

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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2008, 06:26:17 pm »
If you're not willing to overspend, and yes giving money of that caliber to kids who may not become major leaguers is overspending (and something that irks veteran players who had to prove themselves), then you evaluate talent or do more of the search and evaluate where others rarely go.  IOW - if Bobby Heck is able to identify a diamond in the rough playing for Poedunk U., he can say to his bosses "this guy will be a great major leaguer and cost a lot less to sign".

Right now, I'm not worried about any of it.
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Re: BP NL Central preview up
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2008, 08:45:13 am »
Right now, I'm not worried about any of it.
Me either.  I suspect the question of Drayton spending more than slot money on a draftee should it be required will probably be answered by the people Drayton asks "Is he worth spending the extra money on?".  My guess is that was also true last year and Drayton was told no.  The reason I believe this is because he has spent more than slot money before on some (Patton comes immediately to mind).  So we know he will do it for the right players.

I don't believe Drayton does these things arbitrarily.  I think he does ask people if it is worth it.  Then it becomes a matter of a) What do they think and b) Does Drayton trust what they tell him.

And having better and more picks certainly will help any draft.