Author Topic: "With eyes on Prior"  (Read 36259 times)

Arky Vaughan

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"With eyes on Prior"
« on: December 17, 2007, 05:06:22 pm »
I'm sure I've been Cabrera-ed, but who cares?

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071217&content_id=2328766&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

"Wade recently made an offer to former Cubs right-hander Mark Prior, who is rehabbing from shoulder surgery and probably won't be ready to pitch until sometime in May. That hasn't slowed the steady line of suitors for the 27-year-old, and count the Astros as one of nearly a dozen teams who have expressed interest."

and

"Wade also has scouts in Phoenix to watch Kris Benson throw. Benson is working out in front of several teams with hopes of making a comeback after missing the 2007 season due to shoulder surgery. Last month, the Orioles paid Benson a $500,000 buyout rather than exercise a $7.5 million option."

It won't be long until they've searched the full bargain bin of former NL Central would-be aces.

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2007, 05:07:47 pm »
I'm sure I've been Cabrera-ed, but who cares?

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071217&content_id=2328766&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

"Wade recently made an offer to former Cubs right-hander Mark Prior, who is rehabbing from shoulder surgery and probably won't be ready to pitch until sometime in May. That hasn't slowed the steady line of suitors for the 27-year-old, and count the Astros as one of nearly a dozen teams who have expressed interest."

and

"Wade also has scouts in Phoenix to watch Kris Benson throw. Benson is working out in front of several teams with hopes of making a comeback after missing the 2007 season due to shoulder surgery. Last month, the Orioles paid Benson a $500,000 buyout rather than exercise a $7.5 million option."

It won't be long until they've searched the full bargain bin of former NL Central would-be aces.

Mrs. Benson comes with it.  Did I say Comes?

Arky Vaughan

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2007, 05:08:42 pm »
Mrs. Benson comes with it.  Did I say Comes?

Buttox.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2007, 07:43:33 pm »
Quote
Buttox.

Incontinentia Buttox.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2007, 07:54:42 pm »
Incontinentia Buttox.

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MikeyBoy

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2007, 10:21:18 am »
I found this (LINK) breakdown of Prior's pitching mechanics and thought it was interesting. The author is a Marketing guy, so I'm not sure about his qualifications as a pitching expert. Maybe those with a better grasp than I on the finer points of pitching mecahnics can weigh in, or not.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2007, 02:40:22 pm »
Benson's agent  impressed, at least.  Kris, I mean.  Not Anna.  At least not in the article.
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Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2007, 03:02:53 pm »
Benson's agent  impressed, at least.  Kris, I mean.  Not Anna.  At least not in the article.
Ok, so let's assume for a second that the Astros sign Benson.  What is the actual expected time table he would be read to pitch in the majors?  Would he be read for ST? OD? Early season? Mid-season?

Oh and just because an agent is excited.... don't put too much stock, he is supposed to be giddy over his clients.  And it was interesting that like 6 teams were mentioned but that 25 scouts where there... wonder how many scouts Houston sent to watch?

otterjb

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2007, 03:18:20 pm »
Adding Kris (and Anna?) would be the proverbial cherry on top of this offseason. If healthy, he could be the solid number 2 that the Astros are looking for. Prior too. WadeSmith's been rolling the dice big time for a run at the NL in '08, why stop now?

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2007, 03:19:36 pm »
Adding Kris (and Anna?) would be the proverbial cherry on top of this offseason. If healthy, he could be the solid number 2 that the Astros are looking for. Prior too. WadeSmith's been rolling the dice big time for a run at the NL in '08, why stop now?

Cherry is a word that hasn't been associated with Anna for a very, very long time.
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Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2007, 03:37:15 pm »
Ok, so let's assume for a second that the Astros sign Benson.  What is the actual expected time table he would be read to pitch in the majors?  Would he be read for ST? OD? Early season? Mid-season?

Oh and just because an agent is excited.... don't put too much stock, he is supposed to be giddy over his clients.  And it was interesting that like 6 teams were mentioned but that 25 scouts where there... wonder how many scouts Houston sent to watch?

According to the agent, he's fully healthy and ahead of the shape he normally goes to spring training in.  So I would assume they're selling him as an opening day member of the team he signs a contract with.

Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2007, 03:37:49 pm »
Cherry is a word that hasn't been associated with Anna for a very, very long time.

Anna, please don't put the cherries in that.  I was going to eat those.

Ty in Tampa

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2007, 03:42:58 pm »
"What kind of...ahem...air freshener do you prefer, Anna, the cherry or the pine."
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2007, 04:29:20 pm »
Anna, please don't put the cherries in that.  I was going to eat those.
And Anna's response would be "Wait did you say 'those' or 'that'?"

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2007, 04:30:31 pm »
According to the agent, he's fully healthy and ahead of the shape he normally goes to spring training in.  So I would assume they're selling him as an opening day member of the team he signs a contract with.
And of course we ALWAYS believe the agent, right?  I did read that in the article, but since I have not been following Benson and his injury or rehab, I have no idea how truthful that comment was.

Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 05:39:45 pm »
I rarely believe the agent.  But that seems to be the only source for Benson news at this point.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2007, 03:10:53 pm »
Jayson Stark's latest column has a discussion that he had with Prior's agent:

Quote
John Boggs [Prior's agent] told Rumblings that Prior is so confident he'll have a big year, he isn't even interested in a two-year deal.

"That's why a two-year deal is not acceptable -- because we're planning on him being good," said Boggs, who has continually declined to discuss the degree of interest from any specific teams. "We're not planning on taking a two-year deal and then having him break down. … We're not even looking for one year and an option. We'll take our chances."

Is this serious? I mean, that's a gigantic gamble for a team and agent to be making, that they just want a one-year deal, have him blow everyone away, and then sign a giant long-term contract? If they're really looking for something so short-term, I think that bodes well for the going-for-broke Wade's chances.
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mrpink

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2007, 03:26:22 pm »
Adding Kris (and Anna?) would be the proverbial cherry on top of this offseason. If healthy, he could be the solid number 2 that the Astros are looking for. Prior too. WadeSmith's been rolling the dice big time for a run at the NL in '08, why stop now?

When you say "solid number 2" I hope you're referring to something besides the rotation.

Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2007, 03:30:04 pm »
Jayson Stark's latest column has a discussion that he had with Prior's agent:

Is this serious? I mean, that's a gigantic gamble for a team and agent to be making, that they just want a one-year deal, have him blow everyone away, and then sign a giant long-term contract? If they're really looking for something so short-term, I think that bodes well for the going-for-broke Wade's chances.

It's not a gamble at all for the team.  You spend a year's worth of money.  If he's good, you got a great year or trading piece out of him, as well as additional time to negotiate a long term deal.  If he sucks, you're out one year, with no buyouts, options, etc.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2007, 03:34:38 pm »
It's not a gamble at all for the team.  You spend a year's worth of money.  If he's good, you got a great year or trading piece out of him, as well as additional time to negotiate a long term deal.  If he sucks, you're out one year, with no buyouts, options, etc.

The trading piece is eggszactly the route that the KC Royals took with Octavio Dotel and his one year deal.  It brought them back a little sumpthin' sumpthin' from Atlanta.  Houston may not make the playoffs or even be contenders just yet, but renting Prior and hoping he's pretty darn good up until the trading deadline is two options I would think they'd like to have: Keep him for a playoff run (if they're contending) or trade him to anyone needing a good starter for the playoff run and reap the benefits of get back (prospects to replenish the farm).

WadeSmith know what they're doing on this one.

kevinG

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2007, 03:35:13 pm »
It's not a gamble at all for the team.  You spend a year's worth of money.  If he's good, you got a great year or trading piece out of him, as well as additional time to negotiate a long term deal.  If he sucks, you're out one year, with no buyouts, options, etc.

No, I don't think it's a gamble for the team, I think it's a huge gamble by Prior. If he gets injured or under-performs in seeking a one-year deal, he's definitely hurting his long-term contract chances.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2007, 03:37:07 pm »
When you say "solid number 2" I hope you're referring to something besides the rotation.

Are we still talking about two girls one cup?
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Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2007, 03:37:56 pm »
It's not a gamble at all for the team.  You spend a year's worth of money.  If he's good, you got a great year or trading piece out of him, as well as additional time to negotiate a long term deal.  If he sucks, you're out one year, with no buyouts, options, etc.
And if it is a reasonable 1 yr deal the offer of arb after the year is easy to do, so even if you lose him you are likely to get something in return.  This all assumes he has a great year too.  Which of course if he does is good for the Astros (should they sign him).  All in all, I don't have an issue with them wanting to do this route.  I like it better than him making the team sign a 2 yr guarantee deal and then crapping out, leaving the team holding his bag of nothing for the extra year.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2007, 03:39:26 pm »
In the same vein, I've heard nothing about Freddie Garcia.  Has anyone?
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2007, 03:40:05 pm »
No, I don't think it's a gamble for the team, I think it's a huge gamble by Prior. If he gets injured or under-performs in seeking a one-year deal, he's definitely hurting his long-term contract chances.

He has very little leverage to do much of anything else, besides his agent is saying the proverbial "we meant to do that" Pee-Wee Herman reset.  Meaning, they're not going to get anyone to bite on a two year deal any way.  It's the best Prior can hope for right now given that the San Diego Padres looked a medical records for Prior and decided to call off a deal they made with the Cubs to obtain him.

The cost of a one-year arbitration contract must of scared them for a player who may not even pitch in 2008.  Better to offer him a make good contract of some sort (1.5 million?  Wade Miller goes to Boston type of deal).

Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2007, 03:48:33 pm »
In the same vein, I've heard nothing about Freddie Garcia.  Has anyone?
Honestly I have not heard much of anything other than re-hashed rumors from any of the pitchers other than Benson lately (and I guess this recent stuff from Prior's Agent).

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2007, 03:49:39 pm »
He has very little leverage to do much of anything else, besides his agent is saying the proverbial "we meant to do that" Pee-Wee Herman reset.  Meaning, they're not going to get anyone to bite on a two year deal any way.  It's the best Prior can hope for right now given that the San Diego Padres looked a medical records for Prior and decided to call off a deal they made with the Cubs to obtain him.

The cost of a one-year arbitration contract must of scared them for a player who may not even pitch in 2008.  Better to offer him a make good contract of some sort (1.5 million?  Wade Miller goes to Boston type of deal).

According to Rosenthal, the Padres only have two more million to play around with this season before hitting their budget limit of $75 mil.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7581498

In the same piece, Rosenthal insightfully opines on the Astros rotation:

"After Roy Oswalt, the Astros' rotation includes Wandy Rodriguez, Woody Williams, Brandon Backe and Chris Sampson. Fernando Nieve and Felipe Paulino represent less experienced options.

Prior could be a useful addition, and Steve Trachsel, Shawn Chacon and Jon Lieber are among the other free agents the Astros are considering. GM Ed Wade signed Lieber as a free agent when he was with the Phillies."

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2007, 03:52:22 pm »
In the same vein, I've heard nothing about Freddie Garcia.  Has anyone?
The Mets were among about a half-dozen teams that asked for and received the medical reports on Freddy Garcia, who underwent shoulder surgery last August. Garcia is not expected back before June, but pitching is so thin that teams are willing to consider signing him and hoping he provides a second-half boost. . . . http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7529192

Found this link on MLBTR.  It's two weeks old.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2007, 03:55:18 pm »
According to Rosenthal, the Padres only have two more million to play around with this season before hitting their budget limit of $75 mil.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7581498

In the same piece, Rosenthal insightfully opines on the Astros rotation:

"After Roy Oswalt, the Astros' rotation includes Wandy Rodriguez, Woody Williams, Brandon Backe and Chris Sampson. Fernando Nieve and Felipe Paulino represent less experienced options.

Prior could be a useful addition, and Steve Trachsel, Shawn Chacon and Jon Lieber are among the other free agents the Astros are considering. GM Ed Wade signed Lieber as a free agent when he was with the Phillies."
No mention of Benson even though the Astros were actually at his "demonstration".  And not mention of Livan, although I am not sure how much interest the team really has in him (I do know people here are agreeable).

Matt

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2007, 04:27:17 pm »
Are we still talking about two girls one cup?
Last night my girlfriend came home and the first thing she said was "What's two girls one cup?".  So apparently it's been making the rounds again recently.  Which is NOT good.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2007, 04:32:16 pm »
Last night my girlfriend came home and the first thing she said was "What's two girls one cup?".  So apparently it's been making the rounds again recently.  Which is NOT good.
just tell her its conjoined twins that share one breast...your better off.  it's the most foul thing i have seen in a long time.

Matt

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2007, 05:02:17 pm »
just tell her its conjoined twins that share one breast...your better off.  it's the most foul thing i have seen in a long time.
I just told her to forget you ever heard the phrase and move on with your life without having to ever view that video.  Then I told her to check out lemon party.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2007, 05:08:53 pm »
I just told her to forget you ever heard the phrase and move on with your life without having to ever view that video. 

I felt the same way when I was watching football on FOX last Sunday, and Terry Bradshaw eagerly informed me that the competition to name the stupid FOX football robot who is always loosening up at the side of the screen during promotions finally ended. I wish I could unlearn the fact that the robot is named Cleatus. I wish I could remove that piece of information from my mind for surely it is taking up space needed for something far more useful. I can think of no more useless item occupying territory in my brain. My life is immeasurably worse for knowing that.
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Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2007, 05:09:07 pm »
Lemon Party?!? Was tubgirl.com down?

Matt

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2007, 05:43:18 pm »
Lemon Party?!? Was tubgirl.com down?

She's privy to tubgirl.com. Lemon party however came out of nowhere like a left hook for the knockout.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2007, 06:11:01 pm »
She's privy to tubgirl.com. Lemon party however came out of nowhere like a left hook for the knockout.

30 Rock has been getting away with a ridiculous number of Lemon Party jokes this season.
Drinking for two.

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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2007, 10:00:27 am »
We kind of looked into it, but at this point, no," Steinbrenner said of the Yankees' interest in Prior.
Link

general manager Kevin Towers ...who leaves Thursday on a three-week vacation, said ...that their interest in Mark Prior has waned.
List

So the attractions of playing either for money or at home seem remote.  Now he'll likely choose the team that has the best clubhouse atmosphere... D'OH!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 10:04:30 am by pravata »

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2007, 10:24:44 am »
So the attractions of playing either for money or at home seem remote.  Now he'll likely choose the team that has the best clubhouse atmosphere... D'OH!
The relative merits of the MLB cities' school systems are sure to be an important part of his ultimate decision.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2007, 10:32:35 am »
Prior's being a little B*tch so i say lets go get Benson.

He'd (Benson) be more willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal and would probably cost less in the long run. Prior is being picky with the situation because he can tell that teams are still in awe of is 2003 season where he was amazing. Hes using this to his advantage to court plenty of teams without any really knowledge of whether or not he can stay healthy. So his agent goes out and makes comments like that and it annoys me and makes me question what Prior's motives are.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 10:44:00 am by Burkeman »

pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2007, 10:33:45 am »
Prior's being a little B*tch so i say lets go get Benson.

You can type bitch here.  But what makes you say this?

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2007, 10:40:46 am »
You can type bitch here.  But what makes you say this?

We don't need a wonderful strikeout artist ace as our number 2 which i guess Prior could fall into place as being, we need someone that can eat up innings and have a decent era 3.50 - 4.50. Benson could do that for us and potentially cost less (depending on priors performance) which is better imo. I also doubt Prior would want to sign here.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2007, 10:42:26 am »
We don't need a wonderful strikeout artist ace as our number 2 which i guess Prior could fall into place as being, we need someone that can eat up innings and have a decent era 3.50 - 4.50. Benson could do that for us and potentially cost less (depending on priors performance) which is better imo. I also doubt Prior would want to sign here.

How does all this translate into Prior being a bitch?
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2007, 10:44:32 am »
A cheap rental for about 1/2 a season, even if he's not ready to go until the All-Star break.  I'd say do a one year with an option.  Relatively low money up front but maybe load it with lots of incentives.  Bargain basement high reward/low risk.  What's not to like?

/likes the idea of Prior & Benson as our #2 & #3 starters for the 2nd half pennant run

Ty in Tampa

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2007, 10:45:19 am »
We don't need a wonderful strikeout artist ace as our number 2 which i guess Prior could fall into place as being, we need someone that can eat up innings and have a decent era 3.50 - 4.50. Benson could do that for us and potentially cost less (depending on priors performance) which is better imo. I also doubt Prior would want to sign here.

He's the one putting his neck out asking for only a one year deal. A bitch would hold out for a 2-3 year deal. I'm not getting you.
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2007, 10:45:59 am »
Prior's being a little B*tch so i say lets go get Benson.

He'd (Benson) be more willing to sign a 2 or 3 year deal and would probably cost less in the long run. Prior is being picky with the situation because he can tell that teams are still in awe of is 2002 (?) season where he was amazing. Hes using this to his advantage to court plenty of teams without any really knowledge of whether or not he can stay healthy. So his agent goes out and makes comments like that and it annoys me and makes me question what Prior's motives are.

I think his motives are clear.  Get with a team that will help him rehab and give him a few showcase starts.  I think whoever signs him would be hesitant to give him more than a year anyway.  The other thing is that Benson seems ready to go.  But if the Astros sign him with that baggage they will have officially become a very different team.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2007, 10:48:15 am »
A cheap rental for about 1/2 a season, even if he's not ready to go until the All-Star break.  I'd say do a one year with an option.  Relatively low money up front but maybe load it with lots of incentives.  Bargain basement high reward/low risk.  What's not to like?

/likes the idea of Prior & Benson as our #2 & #3 starters for the 2nd half pennant run

if we get both of them then i'd be plesantly surprised, but I doubt Prior would want to come here...also, think about it, Prior wouldn't be back until May so if hes to be that 1/2 a year pitcher he has a month to prove anything to be traded. I don't know, this just screams Beltran 2.0 the Prior edition in the off-season for the astros again.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2007, 10:51:16 am »
/likes the idea of Prior & Benson as our #2 & #3 starters for the 2nd half pennant run

But by the trading deadline if (when) we are 10 games out of the lead I would trade both Lance and Oswalt (yes, they both have no trade clauses but would probably waive that to go to a contender) for an obscene package of can't miss prospects that could set us up for the next decade.

You're all over the place.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2007, 10:55:00 am »
...May.....1/2 a year pitcher.....a month to prove anything.......

?
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2007, 10:56:22 am »
if we get both of them then i'd be plesantly surprised, but I doubt Prior would want to come here...also, think about it, Prior wouldn't be back until May so if hes to be that 1/2 a year pitcher he has a month to prove anything to be traded. I don't know, this just screams Beltran 2.0 the Prior edition in the off-season for the astros again.
Wow you've jumped from Prior after a 1 year "prove himself" contract to comparing it to the Beltran negotiations?  That's quite a leap.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2007, 10:58:24 am »
Remember when people would post coherent thoughts?

That was nice.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2007, 10:58:59 am »
I think his motives are clear.  Get with a team that will help him rehab and give him a few showcase starts.  I think whoever signs him would be hesitant to give him more than a year anyway.  The other thing is that Benson seems ready to go.  But if the Astros sign him with that baggage they will have officially become a very different team.

Prior has to look at Houston as an opportunity and nothing more.  Can Prior, for instance, say that he can have an opportunity in, oh... Boston?  No, he doesn't because they're set with their pitching.  Kansas City?  Yes, now there is a place Prior should look because opportunity abounds.  Houston?  Yes.  St. Louis?  Yes.  Chicago? No.  See, that is what Prior needs, a legit opportunity to crack a starting rotation if in May he is throwing well and ready to toe the rubber again.

If not, then no hard feelings, everything is cool... everyone have a great summer, hasta luego!

Kris Benson?  That is another matter altogether.  If he's throwing well, opportunity is one thing, but he can pick and choose to be on just about any team with interest in his services and said team will give him every chance to make the starting lineup.  That is trickier for Houston to navigate and I'm not so sure they have any advantages to provide Mr. Benson beyond a almost lock guarantee he's the #3 starter (at minimum).

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2007, 11:01:52 am »
That assumes we're not 20 games out by the break.  Depends how many 8-10 games we lose the first half.

If we're within shot of the Wild Card getting two solid starting pitchers ready for the second half would be just as good a making mid-season trade.  If the season is another blow-out, we still have two *relatively cheap* starting pitchers that can be either built around for 09, traded for prospects (i.e. Beltran 2.0), or held onto for offering Arbitration (potential draft picks).

Looks like win-win-win anyway you slice it.

/BIG assumption on getting either/or both Benson & Prior
//leans towards the blow-out prediction = rebuilding if we don't get either (or another reasonable starter)

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2007, 11:02:29 am »
According to Rosenthal, the Padres only have two more million to play around with this season before hitting their budget limit of $75 mil.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7581498

In the same piece, Rosenthal insightfully opines on the Astros rotation:

"After Roy Oswalt, the Astros' rotation includes Wandy Rodriguez, Woody Williams, Brandon Backe and Chris Sampson. Fernando Nieve and Felipe Paulino represent less experienced options.

Prior could be a useful addition, and Steve Trachsel, Shawn Chacon and Jon Lieber are among the other free agents the Astros are considering. GM Ed Wade signed Lieber as a free agent when he was with the Phillies."


Isn't it funny how every piece written about the Astros' rotation sort of glosses over Oswalt? I'm not saying it's an outstanding rotation, but let's not forget there are many, many teams that only wish they had one pitcher as good as Oswalt. The Cardinals in 2006, what did they have aside from Carpenter? A handful of OK guys. Sometimes, when you've got a certifiable ace, all you need is for a couple of your "maybe" guys to become OK guys.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2007, 11:02:54 am »
That is trickier for Houston to navigate and I'm not so sure they have any advantages to provide Mr. Benson beyond a almost lock guarantee he's the #3 starter (at minimum).

And a chance to buy a ranch. I heard he's looking.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2007, 11:03:14 am »
Remember when people would post coherent thoughts?

That was nice.

When was that?
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2007, 11:03:32 am »
Prior has to look at Houston as an opportunity and nothing more.  Can Prior, for instance, say that he can have an opportunity in, oh... Boston?  No, he doesn't because they're set with their pitching.  Kansas City?  Yes, now there is a place Prior should look because opportunity abounds.  Houston?  Yes.  St. Louis?  Yes.  Chicago? No.  See, that is what Prior needs, a legit opportunity to crack a starting rotation if in May he is throwing well and ready to toe the rubber again.

If not, then no hard feelings, everything is cool... everyone have a great summer, hasta luego!

If I was a rehabbing pitcher looking to get my career back on track, i'd avoid the DH/American league like the plague, unless there was no other interest in my services.

I think the cardinals with their current rotation might represent the biggest obstacle to Prior donning the mud n' blood in 2008.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2007, 11:04:05 am »
Well, discarding the scatter-brain notions, sign Benson and substitute Jennings for Prior.  Prav, if you haven't realized this ain't the "Good Guys" Astros,  you may be in denial.  I'm not saying that is totally lost, but there is no guarantee of the Bagwell/Biggio influenced "Play hard or go home" professionalism any more.  The times they are a changin'....

Benson can pitch.  They can add a clause in his contract that says "Must muzzle wife in public"....  Besides, she may find Houston reminiscent of home....
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2007, 11:08:02 am »
Besides, she may find Houston reminiscent of home....

Well played.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2007, 11:10:17 am »
Kris Benson?  That is another matter altogether.  If he's throwing well, opportunity is one thing, but he can pick and choose to be on just about any team with interest in his services and said team will give him every chance to make the starting lineup.  That is trickier for Houston to navigate and I'm not so sure they have any advantages to provide Mr. Benson beyond a almost lock guarantee he's the #3 starter (at minimum).

Would they even have to offer him the specific # in the rotation?  A healthy Kris Benson vs Chris Sampson is really no contest.  He'd have a spot locked up and ST can sort out the order.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2007, 11:11:20 am »


Quote
she may find Houston reminiscent of home....

All of "Gentleman's Entertainment Clubs"?

Well, it worked for getting Charles Barkley.   8)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 11:13:09 am by Lumpus »

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2007, 11:11:49 am »
Isn't it funny how every piece written about the Astros' rotation sort of glosses over Oswalt?
Wow either you are touchier than I or you read something I didn't.  I don't think I have read one article yet that didn't basically say something to the affect "After Oswalt they don't really have anyone else".

As for Prior and Benson, I think the fact that the Astros SHOULD have a productive offense and "with their addition" should be serious contenders for the NL Central in 08.  That combo is pretty tempting, especially if they are signing a 1 year make good type contract.  This would give them a chance to pitch with good run support (because that leads to more wins) and have the chance at some playoffs (which is more exposure).  So while other teams might also be appealing (don't forget Phili was also looking for 1 more starter), Houston should at least be something in their top options.  Also, I have noticed players like to go to teams where they can play against their former teams and kind of do the "rub your nose in it" type thing.  So that also might be a motivation for them to sign in Houston.

Going on the big IF train, IF the Astros do sign both, who is moving out of the rotation from the Wandy, Brandon, Woody group when Prior is finally ready to pitch?

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2007, 11:13:28 am »
look, let say we sign Prior to a 1 year deal with incentives and what not.

If he does well on his return and the astros aren't in contention (which is possible) then they'd trade him and "replinish the farm".

If he completely blows we are stuck with him for the rest of the year without fixing out starting pitching as much as they would have liked to. then we can cut him loose and watch him flutter around like Scott Elarton (no im not saying their skills are to par with eachother...thats just another pitcher who had a great year got injured, and was never to recover thus he flutters around going from team to team)

If Prior does well and we are in contention to the end or even make the playoffs, He can just cut loose into the free agency mill. Now you have the whole Beltran effect, the fans will want him back, the media would want him back, we'd all want him back. I just fear that he'd use us and our market to up the amount of money paid to him for her can go to New York or Boston or Los Angeles even.

Now, I don't know about you guys but what I'm hoping if Prior gets here, is that he'll pitch well. He'll help us get to the playoffs and do the whole win now thing Drayton likes. So, I'm just very weary of the chances of him using us to get more money to go elsewhere.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2007, 11:13:48 am »
Wow either you are touchier than I or you read something I didn't.  I don't think I have read one article yet that didn't basically say something to the affect "After Oswalt they don't really have anyone else".

As for Prior and Benson, I think the fact that the Astros SHOULD have a productive offense and "with their addition" should be serious contenders for the NL Central in 08.  That combo is pretty tempting, especially if they are signing a 1 year make good type contract.  This would give them a chance to pitch with good run support (because that leads to more wins) and have the chance at some playoffs (which is more exposure).  So while other teams might also be appealing (don't forget Phili was also looking for 1 more starter), Houston should at least be something in their top options.  Also, I have noticed players like to go to teams where they can play against their former teams and kind of do the "rub your nose in it" type thing.  So that also might be a motivation for them to sign in Houston.

Going on the big IF train, IF the Astros do sign both, who is moving out of the rotation from the Wandy, Brandon, Woody group when Prior is finally ready to pitch?

whomever is pitching the worst.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2007, 11:15:08 am »
Well, discarding the scatter-brain notions, sign Benson and substitute Jennings for Prior.  Prav, if you haven't realized this ain't the "Good Guys" Astros,  you may be in denial.  I'm not saying that is totally lost, but there is no guarantee of the Bagwell/Biggio influenced "Play hard or go home" professionalism any more.  The times they are a changin'....

Benson can pitch.  They can add a clause in his contract that says "Must muzzle wife in public"....  Besides, she may find Houston reminiscent of home....

I'm not in denial, I'm watching for the exact second when Mclane can no longer maintain the facade. 

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2007, 11:15:59 am »
look, let say we sign Prior to a 1 year deal with incentives and what not.

If he does well on his return and the astros aren't in contention (which is possible) then they'd trade him and "replinish the farm".

If he completely blows we are stuck with him for the rest of the year without fixing out starting pitching as much as they would have liked to. then we can cut him loose and watch him flutter around like Scott Elarton (no im not saying their skills are to par with eachother...thats just another pitcher who had a great year got injured, and was never to recover thus he flutters around going from team to team)

If Prior does well and we are in contention to the end or even make the playoffs, He can just cut loose into the free agency mill. Now you have the whole Beltran effect, the fans will want him back, the media would want him back, we'd all want him back. I just fear that he'd use us and our market to up the amount of money paid to him for her can go to New York or Boston or Los Angeles even.

Now, I don't know about you guys but what I'm hoping if Prior gets here, is that he'll pitch well. He'll help us get to the playoffs and do the whole win now thing Drayton likes. So, I'm just very weary of the chances of him using us to get more money to go elsewhere.

I still haven't found the part where this makes him a bitch.  Or the part where a high-strikeout, sub-4.00 pitcher would not be fit to be a #2.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2007, 11:17:24 am »
Now, I don't know about you guys but what I'm hoping if Prior gets here, is that he'll pitch well. He'll help us get to the playoffs and do the whole win now thing Drayton likes. So, I'm just very weary of the chances of him using us to get more money to go elsewhere.
The only thing that doesn't benefit the Astros is if he is using them to get more money elsewhere right now.  And from all the sounds we have been hearing, there seems to be more waning interest in Prior right now, than growing.

And if he leaves after a successful 08 to someone else, chances are the Astros can offer arb to him and at least get compensation, since I am not sure he has enough numbers in previous years to bring down a good set of numbers put up this year to pull him out of at least being a B type FA.  (assuming a good year from him in 08, which I think is what would cause the issue you refer to in the first place)

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2007, 11:18:10 am »
I'm not in denial, I'm watching for the exact second when Mclane can no longer maintain the facade. 

Will never happen.  Making it all the more infuriating.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2007, 11:18:22 am »
Quote
Now, I don't know about you guys but what I'm hoping if Prior gets here, is that he'll pitch well. He'll help us get to the playoffs and do the whole win now thing Drayton likes. So, I'm just very weary of the chances of him using us to get more money to go elsewhere.

There is no downside.   If he pitches well, the Astros would try to sign him long term seeing how they need him and can pay him. If they failed, they would look to FA again to fill his void unless a prospect pans out.   If he flops, they let him go for nothing.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2007, 11:19:13 am »
I still haven't found the part where this makes him a bitch.  Or the part where a high-strikeout, sub-4.00 pitcher would not be fit to be a #2.

Here's where I am in denial, I'm hoping for a #2 that throws 200 innings.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2007, 11:20:41 am »
Will never happen.  Making it all the more infuriating.

Press conference with Kris Benson pretty much seals the deal.  Drayton likely packs up and relocates to Temple immediately. Jose de Jesus Ortiz will have Anna Benson's number on speed dial.  For nail polish suggestions.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2007, 11:21:54 am »
Press conference with Kris Benson pretty much seals the deal.  Drayton likely packs up and relocates to Temple immediately. Jose de Jesus Ortiz will have Anna Benson's number on speed dial.  For nail polish suggestions.

I could see the chronicle giving Mrs. Benson her own column.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2007, 11:22:24 am »
Here's where I am in denial, I'm hoping for a #2 that throws 200 innings.

Wow, when you are in denial, you don't mess around with the little things... May as wish for world peace, at least in this FA market.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2007, 11:22:45 am »
I still haven't found the part where this makes him a bitch.  Or the part where a high-strikeout, sub-4.00 pitcher would not be fit to be a #2.

We'll firstly, bitch is something I say when things frustrate me, bad habit yes it is. I don't like the idea of renting players which looks like what the Prior situation could turn out as.

Secondly, IF Prior can return to that form then yes its number 1 type stuff so we'd actually have two number 1s in our rotation but I don't see how Benson couldn't do just as well as Prior could. Of course Benson won't have all the flashy strikeout numbers but if his era is where it has been around for his career (4.00- 4.60) thats good enough for a number 2 especially with the potential of our offense.


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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2007, 11:25:03 am »
Here's where I am in denial, I'm hoping for a #2 that throws 200 innings.
That is some standard considering only 38 pitchers in all of baseball threw 200 innings in 07.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2007, 11:28:54 am »
That is some standard considering only 38 pitchers in all of baseball threw 200 innings in 07.

Or in the neighborhood, I'm not picky.  About 30 games, around 6 innings average per game. 

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2007, 11:29:52 am »
/BIG assumption on getting either/or both Benson & Prior
//leans towards the blow-out prediction = rebuilding if we don't get either (or another reasonable starter)

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2007, 11:37:21 am »
look, let say we sign Prior to a 1 year deal with incentives and what not.

If he does well on his return and the astros aren't in contention (which is possible) then they'd trade him and "replinish the farm".

If he completely blows we are stuck with him for the rest of the year without fixing out starting pitching as much as they would have liked to. then we can cut him loose and watch him flutter around like Scott Elarton (no im not saying their skills are to par with eachother...thats just another pitcher who had a great year got injured, and was never to recover thus he flutters around going from team to team)

If Prior does well and we are in contention to the end or even make the playoffs, He can just cut loose into the free agency mill. Now you have the whole Beltran effect, the fans will want him back, the media would want him back, we'd all want him back. I just fear that he'd use us and our market to up the amount of money paid to him for her can go to New York or Boston or Los Angeles even.

Now, I don't know about you guys but what I'm hoping if Prior gets here, is that he'll pitch well. He'll help us get to the playoffs and do the whole win now thing Drayton likes. So, I'm just very weary of the chances of him using us to get more money to go elsewhere.

That's a whole string of "ifs" that have to happen before we get to the point where Prior jumps ship from the Astros to get the big-time money in 2009. Since the pitching needs are immediate, and Prior isn't an Astro yet, I don't see the point in wondering what he might do in 2009. It seems much more likely to me that Prior will make a half-assed comeback for someone, reinjure himself, and fade away.

If you're going to concoct fantasies about 2009, it would be more realistic to include Anna Benson and a trained pony.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2007, 11:45:44 am »
A healthy Kris Benson vs Chris Sampson is really no contest. 

What makes you think this?

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2007, 11:47:55 am »
What makes you think this?

Because Sampson's stuff is very average.  So much so that Cooper and Wade were talking about Sampson to the pen before the Tejada deal.  Benson's stuff is better.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2007, 11:53:20 am »
Could you leave the slashies wherever you found them?

Thank you. I tend to think that we can mix those extraneous thoughts into the sentences that precede them.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2007, 11:56:31 am »
Because Sampson's stuff is very average.  So much so that Cooper and Wade were talking about Sampson to the pen before the Tejada deal.  Benson's stuff is better.

I don't think Benson's stuff is much better, at least not in the past 7 years.  They're both guys who rely mostly on their defense...which we don't have that much of.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2007, 11:58:30 am »
If I was a rehabbing pitcher looking to get my career back on track, i'd avoid the DH/American league like the plague, unless there was no other interest in my services.

I think the cardinals with their current rotation might represent the biggest obstacle to Prior donning the mud n' blood in 2008.

100% agree on that one.  It's opportunity to pitch and make an impression on the league on a major league club.  Kansas City is an AL team and the numbers can inflate, however many scouts will report on how he's throwing to make their reports to the GM.  But I agree with what you said, I would think you'd have to be like Jeff Suppan signing with the Pirates to get a chance to pitch and then making that a launching pad to his next career stopping place.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2007, 12:11:03 pm »
100% agree on that one.  It's opportunity to pitch and make an impression on the league on a major league club.  Kansas City is an AL team and the numbers can inflate, however many scouts will report on how he's throwing to make their reports to the GM.  But I agree with what you said, I would think you'd have to be like Jeff Suppan signing with the Pirates to get a chance to pitch and then making that a launching pad to his next career stopping place.

Obviously you can be showing improvement without seeing tangible results in a stat line, but your example of suppan is perfect.    He had talent in KC but gets a shot in the NL where lineups aren't as stacked and now has made himself a boat load of cash by developing into a solid #3 starter.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2007, 12:16:09 pm »
Obviously you can be showing improvement without seeing tangible results in a stat line, but your example of suppan is perfect.    He had talent in KC but gets a shot in the NL where lineups aren't as stacked and now has made himself a boat load of cash by developing into a solid #3 starter.

I see Prior somewhat reinventing himself in a similar fashion.  Suppan was never a power arm, but he wasn't a control guy either coming up in Kansas City.  He was their ACE because of a very good curveball to go with a 93-94 mph fastball.  His arm problems took away the fastball as a power pitch, so he rehabbed and learned how to control the fastball, spot it well, use a sinker, continue to throw the good curveball and include a slider in his arsenal.

Prior probably has many of that sort of thinking going on in his mind, but he'll probably want to prove that he can still throw with power if he has to.  I think he'll eventually wind up similar to Suppan and make a nice career for himself.  He won't be the next Roger Clemens or Nolan Ryan, but shooting for being the next Jeff Suppan cannot be all that bad for him either.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2007, 12:36:08 pm »
Looks like Prior still has big expectations for this contract.

Quote
But his agent, John Boggs, told Rumblings that Prior is so confident he'll have a big year, he isn't even interested in a two-year deal.

"That's why a two-year deal is not acceptable -- because we're planning on him being good," said Boggs, who has continually declined to discuss the degree of interest from any specific teams. "We're not planning on taking a two-year deal and then having him break down. … We're not even looking for one year and an option. We'll take our chances."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3161000
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Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2007, 12:39:56 pm »

TheWizard

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2007, 12:41:46 pm »
This is a first:

Cabrera shows up in the same thread!
Sweet Moses!  That's embarrassing, oh well.. maybe I'll get some sort of TZ award for that.  I just read the previous page and people were discussing giving him a one-year deal and how advantageous that would be.  I'm a lazy bastard, so didn't read through it all.  My fault.
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S.P. Rodriguez

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2007, 12:45:17 pm »
IN response to your initial question/post...

Quote
Prior might still be a Cub if he were willing to lock into a club option for 2009. But he wants to test the market as a free agent, and the Cubs weren't interested in investing another $3 million in him next season only to watch him go 10-2 and hit the road. Now he's out there for the taking.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove07/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=3160218

Not sure if I'm misreading your post or you are misreading that comment.  Prior's agent is on record as stating they will only sign a one year deal.  Options, second years, etc.. are of no interest to them.  They expect to re-build his value and hit FA without any ties.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2007, 12:45:26 pm »
I am more concerned about Sampson's durability than his lack of ability.  In his first major league season, he posted what must be a near league average ERA, even when hampered by an injury in the late part of the season.  His ERA was also quite a bit better than Woody's.

I'm not trying to argue that he should be a lock for the rotation, but it seems like his very decent performance gets overshadowed by his lack of stuff.  Also, it is not unusual to see pitchers make some adjustments and improve in their second or third years in the majors.

I'd much rather see them go after Benson than Prior.  The Astros don't have the luxury of going after an all-or-nothing or even a something-or-nothing player; they need a high probability of getting a reliable something, imo.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 12:47:33 pm by jbm »

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2007, 12:47:39 pm »
which we don't have that much of.

Really?  Lets see improved defense at CF, RF, and 2nd.  Slight drop at SS (when Everett was playing) or improved at SS (when Everett was not playing).  I think this defense will be just fine.

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2007, 12:49:23 pm »
The Astros don't have the luxury of going after an all-or-nothing or even a something-or-nothing player

Why not?

Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2007, 12:52:47 pm »
I am more concerned about Sampson's durability than his lack of ability.  In his first major league season, he posted what must be a near league average ERA, even when hampered by an injury in the late part of the season.  His ERA was also quite a bit better than Woody's.

I'm not trying to argue that he should be a lock for the rotation, but it seems like his very decent performance gets overshadowed by his lack of stuff.  Also, it is not unusual to see pitchers make some adjustments and improve in their second or third years in the majors.

I'd much rather see them go after Benson than Prior.  The Astros don't have the luxury of going after an all-or-nothing or even a something-or-nothing player; they need a high probability of getting a reliable something, imo.
These two thoughts don't match.  IF you think Sampson is a pretty decent option as a starter (with some questions about durability) then he would be the perfect stop-gap waiting on someone like Prior who can't start the season, but might join in May.

If the team goes for Benson then Sampson has no spot in the rotation and probably on the 25-man roster.

But as a final note, acquiring one (Benson or Prior) does not preclude acquiring the other.

Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2007, 12:53:47 pm »
Really?  Lets see improved defense at CF, RF, and 2nd.  Slight drop at SS (when Everett was playing) or improve at SS (when Everett was not playing).  I think this defense will be just fine.

1st and 3rd are same or better in some sense.  Wiggington is about the same as Ensberg and slighty better than Lamb, but you have Blum to backup Wiggington and that is much better.  Berkman playing full time at first instead of going out to RF to replace Scott and Lane is better.  Plus you have better backups for CF and RF/LF in Abercrombie and Cruz than you did with Palmeiro and Scott/Lane/Burke.  Cruz is not far removed from an outstanding RF defensive season in San Francisco (Gold Glove).  Abercrombie is solid as a CF defender.

Backups for infield are Loretta and Blum and backup for catcher is Ausmus.  I'd say the loss of Bruntlett is a hit for the defense in the bench, but Blum is no slouch.  If Towles holds his own at catcher, I'd rate the overall team defense in Houston Astros 2008 as way better than Houston Astros 2007.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 12:55:30 pm by Noe in Austin »

jbm

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2007, 01:04:42 pm »
These two thoughts don't match.  IF you think Sampson is a pretty decent option as a starter (with some questions about durability) then he would be the perfect stop-gap waiting on someone like Prior who can't start the season, but might join in May.

If the team goes for Benson then Sampson has no spot in the rotation and probably on the 25-man roster.

But as a final note, acquiring one (Benson or Prior) does not preclude acquiring the other.

My main point was not to shortchange Sampson, and I personally would make no plan that assumes Prior makes regular starts, at any time of the season, nor would I want to count on him as a filler should one of the other starters goes down.  Prior seems best for a team with plenty of warm bodies that can take the mound.  The Astros need to get to that point.

Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2007, 01:10:15 pm »
My main point was not to shortchange Sampson, and I personally would make no plan that assumes Prior makes regular starts, at any time of the season, nor would I want to count on him as a filler should one of the other starters goes down.  Prior seems best for a team with plenty of warm bodies that can take the mound.  The Astros need to get to that point.

There is what Prior wants and what the Astros want.  Let's seperate the two:

  • Prior wants to have an opportunity to pitch in 2008 so he can show he's ready to be a free agent in offseason 2009 and call his shot where he'll pitch for his career
  • Astros want depth

I don't see the complete disconnect.  If the contract is one year, Prior thinks he can come back in late May, wants a chance to pitch (and by all indications of what "depth" means, there is a chance in Houston) and Houston needs depth.  Am I missing something here?

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2007, 01:13:12 pm »
If the season is another blow-out, we still have two *relatively cheap* starting pitchers that can be either built around for 09, traded for prospects (i.e. Beltran 2.0), or held onto for offering Arbitration (potential draft picks).


I really don't understand the Beltran 2.0 thing. You do realize he left as a free agent, right?
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2007, 01:13:47 pm »
Prior has to look at Houston as an opportunity and nothing more.  Can Prior, for instance, say that he can have an opportunity in, oh... Boston?  No, he doesn't because they're set with their pitching.  Kansas City?  Yes, now there is a place Prior should look because opportunity abounds.  Houston?  Yes.  St. Louis?  Yes.  Chicago? No.  See, that is what Prior needs, a legit opportunity to crack a starting rotation if in May he is throwing well and ready to toe the rubber again.

If not, then no hard feelings, everything is cool... everyone have a great summer, hasta luego!

Kris Benson?  That is another matter altogether.  If he's throwing well, opportunity is one thing, but he can pick and choose to be on just about any team with interest in his services and said team will give him every chance to make the starting lineup.  That is trickier for Houston to navigate and I'm not so sure they have any advantages to provide Mr. Benson beyond a almost lock guarantee he's the #3 starter (at minimum).

Prior also needs to look at a team that is going to have a potentially potent offense, because wins can get him paid just as well as personal stats.  Houston might look better than Kansas City from that perspective, for example.

Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2007, 01:33:51 pm »
My main point was not to shortchange Sampson, and I personally would make no plan that assumes Prior makes regular starts, at any time of the season, nor would I want to count on him as a filler should one of the other starters goes down.  Prior seems best for a team with plenty of warm bodies that can take the mound.  The Astros need to get to that point.
Acquiring Prior does not mean that is their only target.  I think that might be the disconnect here.  There is no indication that IF Prior is signed, that they won't still look at signing someone like Benson.  I see Prior as just one more fall-back option if they CAN'T get someone like Benson to come in provide something close to #2 starter type numbers.  So again I state, the moves are not mutually exclusive.  Acquiring one does not preclude the other from occuring.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2007, 01:34:18 pm »
There is what Prior wants and what the Astros want.  Let's seperate the two:

  • Prior wants to have an opportunity to pitch in 2008 so he can show he's ready to be a free agent in offseason 2009 and call his shot where he'll pitch for his career
  • Astros want depth

I don't see the complete disconnect.  If the contract is one year, Prior thinks he can come back in late May, wants a chance to pitch (and by all indications of what "depth" means, there is a chance in Houston) and Houston needs depth.  Am I missing something here?

I guess what gives me pause is things like "Prior thinks he can come back in late May."  Depth has many meanings.  When you have four established guys and a bunch of AAA prospects, you have a continuum of warm bodies to take the mound.  In that case, you can take a flier on Prior because his upside exceeds one of your established guys, and should he never take the mound, you still have the five AAA guys.  In that scenario, adding Prior strengthens one's depth.  

The Astros need to establish a continuum of warm bodies first.  If they grab a couple of average starters to fill in should someone get hurt, then Prior makes sense.  I just don't want Prior to be part of the firewall between our 25 man roster and AA pitchers.

DVauthrin

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2007, 01:37:43 pm »
Prior also needs to look at a team that is going to have a potentially potent offense, because wins can get him paid just as well as personal stats.  Houston might look better than Kansas City from that perspective, for example.

I'd wager his stats would look better in houston than KC as well.
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otterjb

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2007, 01:49:31 pm »
She's privy to tubgirl.com. Lemon party however came out of nowhere like a left hook for the knockout.

Ohh, dear lord. While I still refuse to see the 2girls1cup video, I made the mistake of googling Lemon Party and going directly to the first link. A corner of my brain is now damaged forever.

Matt

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2007, 03:55:28 pm »
Ohh, dear lord. While I still refuse to see the 2girls1cup video, I made the mistake of googling Lemon Party and going directly to the first link. A corner of my brain is now damaged forever.
We'll see how strong your restraint is and if you can resist Googling for "Mr. Hands".

cougar

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2007, 09:46:43 pm »
We'll see how strong your restraint is and if you can resist Googling for "Mr. Hands".

What do you have against Ray Walston?

And no, I'm not going to Google "Mr. Hands".  Your introduction was enough to scare me off.

Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2007, 11:16:28 pm »
The Houston Chronicle is reporting that both Prior and Benson are giving serious consideration to Houston.  In the case of Prior, he wants to pitch in San Diego, who already turned down an opportunity to obtain Prior in a trade with the Cubs.  One look at the medical records made them really concerned that they would be giving up a player for a pitcher who may not pitch at all in the majors.

The Padres have 2 million dollars more to spend and are said to be holding that for other needs so any deal Prior wants from the Padres will have to be a very low contract, probably a league minimum or even a minor league contract.

Houston is offering a solid one year contract and a major league roster spot.  It's up to Prior to decide at this point:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/5395614.html

toddthebod

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2007, 12:06:47 am »
The best part of the Chron article is this line: 

"'Houston is definitely a team Kris is considering, especially with Ed Wade, who obviously has a history of having a commitment to win,' said Benson's agent, Gregg Clifton."

See, Pettitte didn't know shit when he said that the Astros were not committed to winning.  Drayton brought in Ed Wade.  ED WADE.  Freaking "committed to winning" Ed Wade. 

I, therefore, propose that Ed Wade's new nickname should be "Mr. Commitment."
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 12:09:08 am by toddthebod »
Boom!

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2007, 12:06:59 am »
The Houston Chronicle is reporting that both Prior and Benson are giving serious consideration to Houston.  In the case of Prior, he wants to pitch in San Diego, who already turned down an opportunity to obtain Prior in a trade with the Cubs.  One look at the medical records made them really concerned that they would be giving up a player for a pitcher who may not pitch at all in the majors.

The Padres have 2 million dollars more to spend and are said to be holding that for other needs so any deal Prior wants from the Padres will have to be a very low contract, probably a league minimum or even a minor league contract.

Houston is offering a solid one year contract and a major league roster spot.  It's up to Prior to decide at this point:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/5395614.html

Fingers crossed.  Man, it would be great if they could get both of these deals done.
Lighten up, Francis.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2007, 08:10:38 am »
Really?  Lets see improved defense at CF, RF, and 2nd.  Slight drop at SS (when Everett was playing) or improved at SS (when Everett was not playing).  I think this defense will be just fine.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I only see us improved at CF and 2B.  Even with his increased range I don't think Pence will be as good as Scott was in right and I like Wigginton a lot, but I don't think he's the third baseman Ensberg was. 
And having Tejada at short instead of Everett (assuming he's healthy) is waaaaaaaay more than a slight drop.  I know he's much better than Loretta there, but I'm not sure he's any better than Bruntlett.

If the Astros are planning on signing mediocre pitchers with low strikeout rates they should've kept Everett at short and traded Wigginton.  Man I really hope we get Prior.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2007, 08:13:20 am »
//snip//
And having Tejada at short instead of Everett (assuming he's healthy) is waaaaaaaay more than a slight drop.  I know he's much better than Loretta there, but I'm not sure he's any better than Bruntlett.


Bruntlett handles SS way better than Loretta.
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mrpink

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2007, 08:16:56 am »
Bruntlett handles SS way better than Loretta.
Sorry, I meant I don't think Tejada's any better at short than Bruntlett.  I remember it being almost painful to watch Sampson starting with Biggio and Loretta behind him.

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2007, 08:55:22 am »
Even with his increased range I don't think Pence will be as good as Scott was in right

other than arm, which scott's wasnt great I call b.s.

and I like Wigginton a lot, but I don't think he's the third baseman Ensberg was. 

Last I checked Wigg played 3b for the stros last year.  I also don't think he is worse than Morgan at 3rd.  Both average. 

And having Tejada at short instead of Everett (assuming he's healthy) is waaaaaaaay more than a slight drop.  I know he's much better than Loretta there, but I'm not sure he's any better than Bruntlett.   

Whatever "waaaaaaay" means.   And that is a huge assumption that Everett is healthy.




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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2007, 09:02:35 am »
The Houston Chronicle is reporting that both Prior and Benson are giving serious consideration to Houston.  In the case of Prior, he wants to pitch in San Diego, who already turned down an opportunity to obtain Prior in a trade with the Cubs.  One look at the medical records made them really concerned that they would be giving up a player for a pitcher who may not pitch at all in the majors.

The Padres have 2 million dollars more to spend and are said to be holding that for other needs so any deal Prior wants from the Padres will have to be a very low contract, probably a league minimum or even a minor league contract.

Houston is offering a solid one year contract and a major league roster spot.  It's up to Prior to decide at this point:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/5395614.html

Buster Olney reported that Padres were still interested in Prior last night and that they were probably the front runners.  Throw all the other crap out the window...probably doesn't hurt that Padres home field is a safe haven for pitchers huh?  My guess is that would be a great place to build value in '08.

pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2007, 09:12:17 am »
Buster Olney reported that Padres were still interested in Prior last night and that they were probably the front runners.  Throw all the other crap out the window...probably doesn't hurt that Padres home field is a safe haven for pitchers huh?  My guess is that would be a great place to build value in '08.

A local San Diego reporter had this,

general manager Kevin Towers ....who leaves Thursday on a three-week vacation, ...said the Padres have mild interest in RHP Josh Towers and that their interest in RHP Mark Prior has waned.
Link
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 09:14:46 am by pravata »

Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2007, 09:19:44 am »
other than arm, which scott's wasnt great I call b.s.

Last I checked Wigg played 3b for the stros last year.  I also don't think he is worse than Morgan at 3rd.  Both average. 

Whatever "waaaaaaay" means.   And that is a huge assumption that Everett is healthy.
Well I think it hard to seperate Scott and Pence.  I think Pence has more range, but Scott is better at judging balls and reacting a bit quicker, so I think it probably a wash overall.  Neither has a great arm, but Scott was a better fundemental thrower (ie his throws were such that they hit the cut-off man, or could be cut-off better).  I actually think Pence's arm strength isn't less than Scotts, but that makes the difference between them defensively.  They about balance out with strengths and weaknesses.

Wigginton probably doesn't have the range that Ensberg did, but then I think Wigginton is much more consistent where as Ensberg could look great one play and terrible the next.  Wigginton is about the same on each play.  There is something to say about that.  And with Ensberg's shoulder issue, I think he lost what ever advantage he had in strong throws.  So again since Wigginton played most of the time after he was acquired, I don't see where this is even something to consider when comparing defenses.  Ensberg was NEVER going to be the 3B in Houston this year, so why even think about it.

Tejada vs Everett is interesting because we have ZERO idea of what Everett will be able to do this year.  Based on the fact that he WAS about the best in the game defensively it is very easy to assume that even less than 100% after the injury he would be better than Tejada.  Also I don't know if anyone really tracks this (and if they do, how to pull it all together) but I wonder what the age progression/breakdown is for defense.  Does a player hit there peak defensively around the same time as they do in batting?  And thus have a similar downward trend as they get older?  I am sure everyone gets worse as the get closer to 40, but I have seen quite a few guys keep doing A class defensive work long after their bat has shown considerable decline.  The reason I bring this up is that Tejada was a very good defensive SS at one time.  And it really has been over the past couple of years you have seen (and heard) about his decline defensively.  I wonder if some of that might be related to injuries (which he did play through last year) and not staying in the best of shape during the off-season (which is also something said about him recently).  I don't expect him to return to his best defensively, but I do wonder (much like I do with his bat) if this trade might rekindle the desire in him to be the best he can.  If so, I don't think it any more unreasonable to expect a bounce-back year defensively since I am also expecting the same offensively.

That all being said it will still be a big drop off from Everett Pre-injury to Tejada this year.  And Bruntlett was really good defensively.  Not Everett Level, but probably about as good as Tejada was during his better defensive years.  And we all know Loretta doesn't have nearly the range needed to play SS everyday, but in a pinch, he is better than their other options (because I doubt Matsui is moving to SS).

So there will be a big drop off at SS, but a big improvement in CF and 2B.  So it is really hard to judge how the overall team defense will be impacted.  The problem is you don't know where the balls put in play will go, although we know more go to SS than anywhere else.  This does not mean that just because SS is less defensively that the team defense will go down, because now more balls will be played at 2B and in the Outfield (because Bourn will make Lee and Pence better because of his range to help cover some of their limitations).

I think you should expect some improvement in defense, but not a ton from 07.  But then with the great unknown in Everett, you don't know how much worse it would be with Tejada instead of him.  Then there is the other side of the ball too (which is what Drayton and SMITHWADE is counting on), where Tejada SHOULD be a huge improvement over Everett.  Again we really don't know what to expect because Tejada is comming off a down year and one he was battling injury during.  AND we now know he was a Steroid and Greenies user.  The fact that he (in theory) will not be on them anymore what impact will that have to his expected production.

I think the team is banking on the loss of post-injury Everett in favor of Tejada will be a net gain in offense more than the net-loss in defense.  Until they actually play, you just don't know.  IF that works out in the Astros favor, than this team is vastly better because there is no question they are better defensively when looking at everyplace OTHER than SS.

Froback

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2007, 09:26:38 am »
Buster Olney reported that Padres were still interested in Prior last night and that they were probably the front runners.  Throw all the other crap out the window...probably doesn't hurt that Padres home field is a safe haven for pitchers huh?  My guess is that would be a great place to build value in '08.
I think what Buster is really saying is that Prior wants to pitch for San Diego MUCH more than ANYONE else.  And the reasons are very simple: He lives in San Diego, thus can play locally, AND the point you made, if he is healthy enough to pitch and is looking to spring board this 1 year deal into a huge one, the best place is to go to the most pitcher friendly ball-park in baseball to make you look better.  It also doesn't hurt that San Diego has just as good a shot at the playoffs as everyone else in the NL.  They did play Colorado in the play-in game last year, so it would seem that they are a pretty good team already.  Also factor in that in San Diego he would be "at best" the #3 pitcher behind Peavy and Young, and would also have Maddux there to help shoulder the pressure to produce.  In Houston he would be painted by the media as the definate #2 (even before he pitches a ball).  And that is extra pressure to perform well early.  Given his time off, I figure even if he is healthy at some point in 08, it will take him some time to re-gain the feel for pitching in the Majors, which means it likely he could have a rocky could of starts early even if all is going according to plan.

just some extra thoughts on why San Diego is #1.  I am pretty sure that Prior wants the Pads MUCH more than the Pads want Prior.  This does NOT mean they don't want him, just that they are not going to "fight" for him is someone else wants him more.

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2007, 09:51:48 am »
Well I think it hard to seperate Scott and Pence.  I think Pence has more range, but Scott is better at judging balls and reacting a bit quicker, so I think it probably a wash overall.  Neither has a great arm, but Scott was a better fundemental thrower (ie his throws were such that they hit the cut-off man, or could be cut-off better).  I actually think Pence's arm strength isn't less than Scotts, but that makes the difference between them defensively.  They about balance out with strengths and weaknesses.

Wigginton probably doesn't have the range that Ensberg did, but then I think Wigginton is much more consistent where as Ensberg could look great one play and terrible the next.  Wigginton is about the same on each play.  There is something to say about that.  And with Ensberg's shoulder issue, I think he lost what ever advantage he had in strong throws.  So again since Wigginton played most of the time after he was acquired, I don't see where this is even something to consider when comparing defenses.  Ensberg was NEVER going to be the 3B in Houston this year, so why even think about it.

Tejada vs Everett is interesting because we have ZERO idea of what Everett will be able to do this year.  Based on the fact that he WAS about the best in the game defensively it is very easy to assume that even less than 100% after the injury he would be better than Tejada.  Also I don't know if anyone really tracks this (and if they do, how to pull it all together) but I wonder what the age progression/breakdown is for defense.  Does a player hit there peak defensively around the same time as they do in batting?  And thus have a similar downward trend as they get older?  I am sure everyone gets worse as the get closer to 40, but I have seen quite a few guys keep doing A class defensive work long after their bat has shown considerable decline.  The reason I bring this up is that Tejada was a very good defensive SS at one time.  And it really has been over the past couple of years you have seen (and heard) about his decline defensively.  I wonder if some of that might be related to injuries (which he did play through last year) and not staying in the best of shape during the off-season (which is also something said about him recently).  I don't expect him to return to his best defensively, but I do wonder (much like I do with his bat) if this trade might rekindle the desire in him to be the best he can.  If so, I don't think it any more unreasonable to expect a bounce-back year defensively since I am also expecting the same offensively.

That all being said it will still be a big drop off from Everett Pre-injury to Tejada this year.  And Bruntlett was really good defensively.  Not Everett Level, but probably about as good as Tejada was during his better defensive years.  And we all know Loretta doesn't have nearly the range needed to play SS everyday, but in a pinch, he is better than their other options (because I doubt Matsui is moving to SS).

So there will be a big drop off at SS, but a big improvement in CF and 2B.  So it is really hard to judge how the overall team defense will be impacted.  The problem is you don't know where the balls put in play will go, although we know more go to SS than anywhere else.  This does not mean that just because SS is less defensively that the team defense will go down, because now more balls will be played at 2B and in the Outfield (because Bourn will make Lee and Pence better because of his range to help cover some of their limitations).

I think you should expect some improvement in defense, but not a ton from 07.  But then with the great unknown in Everett, you don't know how much worse it would be with Tejada instead of him.  Then there is the other side of the ball too (which is what Drayton and SMITHWADE is counting on), where Tejada SHOULD be a huge improvement over Everett.  Again we really don't know what to expect because Tejada is comming off a down year and one he was battling injury during.  AND we now know he was a Steroid and Greenies user.  The fact that he (in theory) will not be on them anymore what impact will that have to his expected production.

I think the team is banking on the loss of post-injury Everett in favor of Tejada will be a net gain in offense more than the net-loss in defense.  Until they actually play, you just don't know.  IF that works out in the Astros favor, than this team is vastly better because there is no question they are better defensively when looking at everyplace OTHER than SS.

Good analysis. 

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2007, 09:53:54 am »
Scott was not a good fielder during his time in Houston.  He often read balls incorrectly, broke incorrectly, etc.  His arm also isn't great.

Where he does have an advantage over Pence is accuracy.  He'd hit the cut off man he intended to most of the time.  Pence, not so much.

pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2007, 09:56:42 am »
Scott was not a good fielder during his time in Houston.  He often read balls incorrectly, broke incorrectly, etc.  His arm also isn't great.

Where he does have an advantage over Pence is accuracy.  He'd hit the cut off man he intended to most of the time.  Pence, not so much.

I'm sure Hunter intends to hit the cut off man.  Some sort of "mccracken field" takes over the flight of the ball once he lets it go, he no longer has control of where it goes.  He made a couple good throws to the plate late in the season.  It gave some runners pause later on. 

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2007, 09:58:10 am »
I'm sure Hunter intends to hit the cut off man.  Some sort of "mccracken field" takes over the flight of the ball once he lets it go, he no longer has control of where it goes.  He made a couple good throws to the plate late in the season.  It gave some runners pause later on. 

I don't think he's intentionally avoiding the cut off man.  But there is something wonky happening after the ball leaves his hand.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2007, 10:00:00 am »
I'm sure Hunter intends to hit the cut off man.  Some sort of "mccracken field" takes over the flight of the ball once he lets it go, he no longer has control of where it goes.  He made a couple good throws to the plate late in the season.  It gave some runners pause later on. 

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2007, 10:04:21 am »
I don't think he's intentionally avoiding the cut off man.  But there is something wonky happening after the ball leaves his hand.

So this could be fixed right?  Hunter is still raw and maybe some good coaching could fix his accuracy.  He at least knows which position he will spend the majority of his time.

I like Luke and Everett, but I am not in love with them as some on this board are.

pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #120 on: December 21, 2007, 10:09:50 am »
So this could be fixed right?  Hunter is still raw and maybe some good coaching could fix his accuracy.  He at least knows which position he will spend the majority of his time.

I like Luke and Everett, but I am not in love with them as some on this board are.

The issue is his throwing motion.  Which, as I understand it, is due to a previous shoulder injury.  If he can get his release point above his hip he might have a chance.  He never learned to slide correctly and they're trying to fix that before he kills himself, so who knows?   

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #121 on: December 21, 2007, 10:19:01 am »
Even with his increased range I don't think Pence will be as good as Scott was in right...

That's not good to hear about Pence because Scott was horrible in right.  To be fair to Scott, he never played RF in the minors, he was always a LF.  Pence, however, was a RF for most of his upper minor league experience.  He only played CF late in AA and to start AAA last year.

If Pence is not as *good* as Scott in right... that's a sad, sad, sad indictment for Gunther.  Scott was horrible.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #122 on: December 21, 2007, 10:26:17 am »
I think what Buster is really saying is that Prior wants to pitch for San Diego MUCH more than ANYONE else.  And the reasons are very simple: He lives in San Diego, thus can play locally, AND the point you made, if he is healthy enough to pitch and is looking to spring board this 1 year deal into a huge one, the best place is to go to the most pitcher friendly ball-park in baseball to make you look better. 

See: Perez, Oliver

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #123 on: December 21, 2007, 10:30:04 am »
See: Perez, Oliver
Ok, because I am at work and don't have time to look it up, what is the obvious point I am missing here?

Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #124 on: December 21, 2007, 10:31:01 am »
Perhaps Pence just needs to learn to play his slice, so to speak.  From right, if he wants to his Matsui, throw it to Berkman.  If he wants to hit Berkman, aim at the dugout, etc...

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #125 on: December 21, 2007, 10:32:45 am »
Perhaps Pence just needs to learn to play his slice, so to speak.  From right, if he wants to his Matsui, throw it to Berkman.  If he wants to hit Berkman, aim at the dugout, etc...

Hey that my golf strategy.  Shhhhhhh!

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2007, 10:34:31 am »
I'm sure Hunter intends to hit the cut off man.  Some sort of "mccracken field" takes over the flight of the ball once he lets it go, he no longer has control of where it goes.  He made a couple good throws to the plate late in the season.  It gave some runners pause later on. 

I think you meant "Voros Effect".  Carry on.

pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #127 on: December 21, 2007, 10:41:33 am »
I think you meant "Voros Effect".  Carry on.

That's the one.  The one that says that skill and experience have no influence on the outcome of plays in baseball.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:43:06 am by pravata »

Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #128 on: December 21, 2007, 10:42:51 am »
See: Perez, Oliver

Perez was horrible at Pittsburgh after his first year.  Injury?  Overuse?  Yes to both.  But he went to New York, pitches in Shea stadium, gets tutored by Peterson... he's turning his career around.  So your point is great, pitching at Petco would help Prior tremendously.

But would he even get an opportunity to pitch?

Peavey
Young
Maddux
Wolf
Hensley

Prior wouldn't be at Petco, he'd be at AAA waiting for an opportunity and if the rotation is intact in San Diego, he won't get that chance to impress anyone and cash in for 2009.  Opportunity is more apparent to me in St. Louis or Houston.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #129 on: December 21, 2007, 10:47:50 am »
Ok, thanks.  I thought that might be it, but wasn't sure to which point you were trying to attach him.

And yes I agree there is NOT a spot for Prior in San Diego, which is why they are not really in "hot pursuit" of him.

I think he ends up in Houston, personally.  But that is pure speculation on my part.  I think Buster is just running with what Prior (and his Agent) are saying.  All things being equal he wants to play for the Pads.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #130 on: December 21, 2007, 10:55:34 am »
Ok, thanks.  I thought that might be it, but wasn't sure to which point you were trying to attach him.

And yes I agree there is NOT a spot for Prior in San Diego, which is why they are not really in "hot pursuit" of him.

I think he ends up in Houston, personally.  But that is pure speculation on my part.  I think Buster is just running with what Prior (and his Agent) are saying.  All things being equal he wants to play for the Pads.

IN 2009, there is no doubt he'll give them every chance to go with him.  But with the development of Young, the ACE that is Peavey, the best chance for Prior is indeed 2009 because by then Wolf and Maddux may be gone.  Had Wolf not signed with San Diego earlier, I'm saying he's going there... now.

For 2008, his best chance to impress in the major league I would personally put on Houston or St. Louis.  The talk that the Rangers are being aggressive is cool, but I think any pitcher who goes to Arlington to pitch better check up on how that corked stadium plays out.  And it's the AL too.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #131 on: December 21, 2007, 11:12:02 am »
That's not good to hear about Pence because Scott was horrible in right.  To be fair to Scott, he never played RF in the minors, he was always a LF.  Pence, however, was a RF for most of his upper minor league experience.  He only played CF late in AA and to start AAA last year.

If Pence is not as *good* as Scott in right... that's a sad, sad, sad indictment for Gunther.  Scott was horrible.

That's just where we disagree then.  Scott was far from horrible, imo.  As far as Pence goes, I'll defer to yours and others opinions since I haven't seen him there.

Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #132 on: December 21, 2007, 11:26:09 am »
That's just where we disagree then.  Scott was far from horrible, imo.  As far as Pence goes, I'll defer to yours and others opinions since I haven't seen him there.

Trust me, Scott had no idea what he was doing in right field.  He played the position as if he were in a mine field.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #133 on: December 21, 2007, 10:54:34 pm »
The issue is his throwing motion.  Which, as I understand it, is due to a previous shoulder injury.  If he can get his release point above his hip he might have a chance.  He never learned to slide correctly and they're trying to fix that before he kills himself, so who knows?   
Isn't a 12-week course on properly using treadmills also now standard training in the Astros farm system? Maybe they didn't have time for sliding class.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #134 on: December 22, 2007, 08:41:34 am »
Trust me, Scott had no idea what he was doing in right field.  He played the position as if he were in a mine field.

I'm going to slightly disagree here, Luke made some good plays out there, although I acknowledge he did botch a few. Horrible is such a strong indictment, so when I think of outfield defense in that category, the first name to come to mind is Roger Cedeno attempting to play CF, or even Chris Burke. Now that is horrible in my eyes. Scott was more consistent with the glove than he was at the plate, which I admit is not saying much about his overall D. The thing I didn't really care for was his high-stepping 'crow-hop' before the throw.

Pence will be okay in RF, certainly not on the level of Jeff Francoeur, but decent. With plenty of room for improvement.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #135 on: December 25, 2007, 07:27:45 pm »
That's the one.  The one that says that skill and experience have no influence on the outcome of plays in baseball.

Of course not. It's all context.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #136 on: December 26, 2007, 12:40:32 pm »
Prior reaches agreement with Pads.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3168825
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toddthebod

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #137 on: December 26, 2007, 12:45:27 pm »
That sucks.  I really thought the Astros were going to sign him.
Boom!

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #138 on: December 26, 2007, 12:46:09 pm »

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #139 on: December 26, 2007, 12:50:20 pm »
Maybe some home cooked fish tacos will do him well...certainly worked for Morgan and Jason.

Noe

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #140 on: December 26, 2007, 01:14:57 pm »
Prior reaches agreement with Pads.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3168825

I found it interesting that Clay Hensley was not mentioned in the report filed by Buster Olney.  Are the Pads no longer high on Hensley as a starter?  Perhaps that lends more reason why Prior decided he has a chance to prove himself in San Deigo.  PETCO Park, good team, and if Hensley is out, then opportunity as well.

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #141 on: December 26, 2007, 01:15:57 pm »
I found it interesting that Clay Hensley was not mentioned in the report filed by Buster Olney.  Are the Pads no longer high on Hensley as a starter?  Perhaps that lends more reason why Prior decided he has a chance to prove himself in San Deigo.  PETCO Park, good team, and if Hensley is out, then opportunity as well.

Perhaps the stros can get Hensley from the fathers?

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #142 on: December 26, 2007, 02:09:34 pm »
That sucks.  I really thought the Astros were going to sign him.

Me too.  A 1 year, 1 million + incentives that could bring it to 3 million.  Wonder what Wade offered?
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #143 on: December 26, 2007, 02:19:40 pm »
In San Diego Prior is a 6th starter here he'd be the 2 or 3 if he proved healthy.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #144 on: December 26, 2007, 02:30:27 pm »
That sucks.  I really thought the Astros were going to sign him.

Fuck it...Kris Benson's still out there.  Something tells me there's a better chance he produces in the future anyhow.

Andyzipp

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #145 on: December 26, 2007, 02:48:17 pm »
Fuck it...Kris Benson's still out there.  Something tells me there's a better chance he produces in the future anyhow.

Produces what, exactly? S.T.D.s?

He topped out in the upper 70's in his demonstration.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #146 on: December 26, 2007, 03:09:51 pm »
The upside potential of Prior was sexy but take a look at these stat spreads:

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 1999 24 PIT NL  11  14  31  31   2   0   0  0  196.7  184  105   89  16   83  139   6   2   840   5   1  4.07  4.61  113 1.358 RoY-4
 2000 25 PIT NL  10  12  32  32   2   1   0  0  217.7  206  104   93  24   86  184  10   5   936   5   0  3.85  4.64  121 1.342
 2002 27 PIT NL   9   6  25  25   0   0   0  0  130.3  152   76   68  18   50   79   3   3   576   8   1  4.70  4.24   90 1.550
 2003 28 PIT NL   5   9  18  18   0   0   0  0  105.0  127   67   58  14   36   68   1   7   475   4   0  4.97  4.37   88 1.552
 2004 29 TOT NL  12  12  31  31   1   1   0  0  200.3  202  106   96  15   61  134  10   5   854   8   0  4.31  4.30  100 1.313
         PIT NL   8   8  20  20   0   0   0  0  132.3  137   69   62   7   44   83   6   2   564   5   0  4.22  4.31  102 1.368
         NYM NL   4   4  11  11   1   1   0  0   68.0   65   37   34   8   17   51   4   3   290   3   0  4.50  4.27   95 1.206
 2005 30 NYM NL  10   8  28  28   0   0   0  0  174.3  171   86   80  24   49   95   4   4   737   5   0  4.13  4.10   99 1.262
 2006 31 BAL AL  11  12  30  30   3   0   0  0  183.0  199  105   98  33   58   88   7   6   781   2   0  4.82  4.56   95 1.404
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
  7 Yr WL% .482  68  73 195 195   8   2   0  0 1207.3 1241  649  582 144  423  787  41  32  5199  37   2  4.34  4.42  102 1.378
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 162 Game Avg    11  12  34  34   1   0   0  0  210.3  216  113  101  25   73  137   7   5   906   6   0  4.34  4.42  102 1.378
 Career High     12  14  32  32   3   1   0  0  217.7  206  106   98  33   86  184  10   7   936   8   1  3.85  4.64  121 1.262


Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 2002 21 CHC NL   6   6  19  19   1   0   0  0  116.7   98   45   43  14   38  147   7   1   486   0   0  3.32  4.03  122 1.166
 2003 22 CHC NL  18   6  30  30   3   1   0  0  211.3  183   67   57  15   50  245   9   9   863   4   0  2.43  4.33  178 1.103
 2004 23 CHC NL   6   4  21  21   0   0   0  0  118.7  112   53   53  14   48  139   3   2   510   2   1  4.02  4.40  109 1.348
 2005 24 CHC NL  11   7  27  27   1   0   0  0  166.7  143   73   68  25   59  188   4   4   701   2   1  3.67  4.40  120 1.212
 2006 25 CHC NL   1   6   9   9   0   0   0  0   43.7   46   39   35   9   28   38   8   5   211   2   0  7.21  4.63   64 1.695
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
  5 Yr WL% .592  42  29 106 106   5   1   0  0  657.0  582  277  256  77  223  757  31  21  2771  10   2  3.51  4.33  123 1.225
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 162 Game Avg    13   9  34  34   1   0   0  0  210.7  186   88   82  24   71  242   9   6   888   3   0  3.51  4.33  123 1.225
 Career High     18   7  30  30   3   1   0  0  211.3  183   73   68  25   59  245   9   9   863   4   1  2.43  4.63  178 1.103


Benson has eaten a lot of innings and posted sub-5 ERAs.  That's more of what the Astros need in the immediate, IMO.

Astroholic

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #147 on: December 26, 2007, 03:15:52 pm »
The upside potential of Prior was sexy but take a look at these stat spreads:

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 1999 24 PIT NL  11  14  31  31   2   0   0  0  196.7  184  105   89  16   83  139   6   2   840   5   1  4.07  4.61  113 1.358 RoY-4
 2000 25 PIT NL  10  12  32  32   2   1   0  0  217.7  206  104   93  24   86  184  10   5   936   5   0  3.85  4.64  121 1.342
 2002 27 PIT NL   9   6  25  25   0   0   0  0  130.3  152   76   68  18   50   79   3   3   576   8   1  4.70  4.24   90 1.550
 2003 28 PIT NL   5   9  18  18   0   0   0  0  105.0  127   67   58  14   36   68   1   7   475   4   0  4.97  4.37   88 1.552
 2004 29 TOT NL  12  12  31  31   1   1   0  0  200.3  202  106   96  15   61  134  10   5   854   8   0  4.31  4.30  100 1.313
         PIT NL   8   8  20  20   0   0   0  0  132.3  137   69   62   7   44   83   6   2   564   5   0  4.22  4.31  102 1.368
         NYM NL   4   4  11  11   1   1   0  0   68.0   65   37   34   8   17   51   4   3   290   3   0  4.50  4.27   95 1.206
 2005 30 NYM NL  10   8  28  28   0   0   0  0  174.3  171   86   80  24   49   95   4   4   737   5   0  4.13  4.10   99 1.262
 2006 31 BAL AL  11  12  30  30   3   0   0  0  183.0  199  105   98  33   58   88   7   6   781   2   0  4.82  4.56   95 1.404
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
  7 Yr WL% .482  68  73 195 195   8   2   0  0 1207.3 1241  649  582 144  423  787  41  32  5199  37   2  4.34  4.42  102 1.378
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 162 Game Avg    11  12  34  34   1   0   0  0  210.3  216  113  101  25   73  137   7   5   906   6   0  4.34  4.42  102 1.378
 Career High     12  14  32  32   3   1   0  0  217.7  206  106   98  33   86  184  10   7   936   8   1  3.85  4.64  121 1.262


Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 2002 21 CHC NL   6   6  19  19   1   0   0  0  116.7   98   45   43  14   38  147   7   1   486   0   0  3.32  4.03  122 1.166
 2003 22 CHC NL  18   6  30  30   3   1   0  0  211.3  183   67   57  15   50  245   9   9   863   4   0  2.43  4.33  178 1.103
 2004 23 CHC NL   6   4  21  21   0   0   0  0  118.7  112   53   53  14   48  139   3   2   510   2   1  4.02  4.40  109 1.348
 2005 24 CHC NL  11   7  27  27   1   0   0  0  166.7  143   73   68  25   59  188   4   4   701   2   1  3.67  4.40  120 1.212
 2006 25 CHC NL   1   6   9   9   0   0   0  0   43.7   46   39   35   9   28   38   8   5   211   2   0  7.21  4.63   64 1.695
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
  5 Yr WL% .592  42  29 106 106   5   1   0  0  657.0  582  277  256  77  223  757  31  21  2771  10   2  3.51  4.33  123 1.225
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
 162 Game Avg    13   9  34  34   1   0   0  0  210.7  186   88   82  24   71  242   9   6   888   3   0  3.51  4.33  123 1.225
 Career High     18   7  30  30   3   1   0  0  211.3  183   73   68  25   59  245   9   9   863   4   1  2.43  4.63  178 1.103


Benson has eaten a lot of innings and posted sub-5 ERAs.  That's more of what the Astros need in the immediate, IMO.

How exactly is one to read this mess?

jaklewein

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #148 on: December 26, 2007, 03:26:32 pm »
Produces what, exactly? S.T.D.s?

He topped out in the upper 70's in his demonstration.

I hadn't read anything about the upper 70's fastball.  Is he at a point in his rehab where he should be closer to his normal stuff?  I was comparing to Prior's laundry list issues fixed with the last surgery.  I will try to find the article that discusses but was a while back when I read it.  I think he had a bad tear of the labrum, rotator cuff problems and shoulder capsule problems.

With the injury problems it would be hard to argue Benson as an innings-eater type guy...but if he's healthy and close to what he was a year and a half ago, then I really think 200 IP would be within reach (especially in the NL). 

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #149 on: December 26, 2007, 03:35:34 pm »
As for why Prior signed with the Padres and not the Astros, I would think that Prior has a better chance of putting up big stats in SD, which is a better pitcher's park than MMP.  Plus, the Central has other bandboxes like Cincy and Mil. and Chi. when the wind is blowing out.  So I would think that Prior would have a better ERA in SD than in Houston. 

As for pitchers I would like to see the Astros pursue:  Hernandez, Jennings, and Josh Towers.  I think the Astros could use two of those guys.   
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #150 on: December 26, 2007, 03:35:41 pm »
I just think that you factor in that SD's homepark is so pitcher-friendly, in addition to the fact that SD is his hometown and where he seemingly wanted to be in the first place.  Those two things put SD above Houston.  He has a good chance to put up pretty good numbers in that ballpark if he comes back healthy.

Plus, if he truly thinks he is coming back healthy like his agent says, then he probably thinks he could beat out Wolf, Hensley, or Germano for a rotation spot.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #151 on: December 26, 2007, 03:38:45 pm »
Produces what, exactly? S.T.D.s?

He topped out in the upper 70's in his demonstration.

I recall that his agent spun the outing as Benson's stuff was electric or something to that effect and that clubs would be lining up to bid for him.
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #152 on: December 26, 2007, 03:43:13 pm »
I recall that his agent spun the outing as Benson's stuff was electric or something to that effect and that clubs would be lining up to bid for him.

Here's what the Phillies think,

''Benson's probably a couple months away,'' Gillick said. ''I don't think Benson is in the mix.''
Link

Jose Cruz III

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #153 on: December 26, 2007, 03:49:49 pm »
That is some standard considering only 38 pitchers in all of baseball threw 200 innings in 07.
And one of them (that I know for sure) is sitting out there one the market right now.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #154 on: December 26, 2007, 04:09:33 pm »
Perez was horrible at Pittsburgh after his first year.  Injury?  Overuse?  Yes to both.  But he went to New York, pitches in Shea stadium, gets tutored by Peterson... he's turning his career around.  So your point is great, pitching at Petco would help Prior tremendously.

But would he even get an opportunity to pitch?

Peavey
Young
Maddux
Wolf
Hensley

Prior wouldn't be at Petco, he'd be at AAA waiting for an opportunity and if the rotation is intact in San Diego, he won't get that chance to impress anyone and cash in for 2009.  Opportunity is more apparent to me in St. Louis or Houston.
If Prior is determined and as good as he used to be, I'll guarantee you he will find a spot in that rotation. A healthy Prior could replace anyone there with the exception of Peavy.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #155 on: December 26, 2007, 04:35:08 pm »
If Prior is determined and as good as he used to be, I'll guarantee you he will find a spot in that rotation. A healthy Prior could replace anyone there with the exception of Peavy.

Uh, Young is pretty damn good.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #156 on: December 26, 2007, 06:21:23 pm »
How exactly is one to read this mess?

I took a look at those stats spreads and now my eyes hurt.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #157 on: December 26, 2007, 09:03:01 pm »
The big glaring stat that I did notice was neither Benson nor Prior pitched a single inning in 2007. Give me Livan please.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #158 on: December 26, 2007, 09:53:03 pm »
Prior reaches agreement with Pads.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3168825

Punk-ass bitch. I hope his arm falls off.

Jose Cruz III

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #159 on: December 26, 2007, 10:00:19 pm »
Uh, Young is pretty damn good.
I'm not taking anything away from Young. He is very good. But when Prior is healthy and on most GM's would take him over Young I would think. Most certainly over the rest of them.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #160 on: December 26, 2007, 10:01:09 pm »
Punk-ass bitch. I hope his arm falls off.

This is stupid. Cut it out, or prepare to get run.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #161 on: December 26, 2007, 11:03:25 pm »
Punk-ass bitch. I hope his arm falls off.


I was under the impression his arm has already fallen off once and put back on. I could be wrong

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2007, 11:23:36 am »
I'm not taking anything away from Young. He is very good. But when Prior is healthy and on most GM's would take him over Young I would think. Most certainly over the rest of them.

With Prior it's no longer a case of when but if.  Still a low risk move for the Pads with high upside potential.  Prior wanted to stay close to home so I'm not certain how much of a shot the Astros had in signing him.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2007, 11:36:46 am »
With Prior it's no longer a case of when but if.  Still a low risk move for the Pads with high upside potential.  Prior wanted to stay close to home so I'm not certain how much of a shot the Astros had in signing him.

One thing to remember, the Padres refused to consumate a deal for Prior when they took one look at his medical records.  So they would not give up even a fringe prospects for him.  So now they sign him for 1 million (forget the incentives, that won't happen).  1 million, a major league roster spot (40 man I suspect and not 25 man).  I don't know right now if this will mean that Prior has to come out firing hard in spring training or not.  I doubt he has options remaining to be send down to the minors, so my suspicion is that he will have to accept a 60 day DL assignment to stay with the Padres or be lost to waivers.

This kind of baffles me given what the agent said and what Prior is looking for: an opportunity to prove he can pitch on a major league level.  My guess is that Prior is going for broke during spring training and if he can't go, he'll quit.

Or so it seems like to me.  That would make sense to try it with San Diego since it's home and he can just walk away easily if it doesn't happen at spring.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2007, 11:38:31 am »
One thing to remember, the Padres refused to consumate a deal for Prior when they took one look at his medical records.  So they would not give up even a fringe prospects for him.  So now they sign him for 1 million (forget the incentives, that won't happen).  1 million, a major league roster spot (40 man I suspect and not 25 man).  I don't know right now if this will mean that Prior has to come out firing hard in spring training or not.  I doubt he has options remaining to be send down to the minors, so my suspicion is that he will have to accept a 60 day DL assignment to stay with the Padres or be lost to waivers.

This kind of baffles me given what the agent said and what Prior is looking for: an opportunity to prove he can pitch on a major league level.  My guess is that Prior is going for broke during spring training and if he can't go, he'll quit.

Or so it seems like to me.  That would make sense to try it with San Diego since it's home and he can just walk away easily if it doesn't happen at spring.

Great analysis ... I think this pretty well explains all the data.
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #165 on: December 27, 2007, 11:52:06 am »
“Houston made a valiant attempt,” said Prior, who also said St. Louis, the New York Mets and Texas Rangers made lucrative proposals.
Link

I read that some teams were wanting an option year.  In the end, I think that any offer that the Padres made would be accepted.  A million is nothing in baseball.

legs_of_eggs

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2007, 02:53:53 pm »
I get the feeling no one else was ever in the running, I've read he lives in San Diego and even does his rehab there. I'm gathering that all the other teams were mere negotiating leverage.

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #167 on: December 27, 2007, 03:23:02 pm »
I get the feeling no one else was ever in the running, I've read he lives in San Diego and even does his rehab there. I'm gathering that all the other teams were mere negotiating leverage.

Good good, if he needed leverage to get a measly mill, then either he's worse off than we thought, or...well, or you're completely off base here.
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DVauthrin

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2007, 04:06:17 pm »
One thing to remember, the Padres refused to consumate a deal for Prior when they took one look at his medical records.  So they would not give up even a fringe prospects for him.  So now they sign him for 1 million (forget the incentives, that won't happen).  1 million, a major league roster spot (40 man I suspect and not 25 man).  I don't know right now if this will mean that Prior has to come out firing hard in spring training or not.  I doubt he has options remaining to be send down to the minors, so my suspicion is that he will have to accept a 60 day DL assignment to stay with the Padres or be lost to waivers.

This kind of baffles me given what the agent said and what Prior is looking for: an opportunity to prove he can pitch on a major league level.  My guess is that Prior is going for broke during spring training and if he can't go, he'll quit.

Or so it seems like to me.  That would make sense to try it with San Diego since it's home and he can just walk away easily if it doesn't happen at spring.

This seems foolish on his part.   The best he can hope for is their 5th spot, and that will have numerous names in the mix as well.   It just seems like he really would have been better off being patient(being willing to be a midseason callup) and finding a team with more questions in their rotation.   
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #169 on: December 27, 2007, 04:30:43 pm »
This seems foolish on his part.   The best he can hope for is their 5th spot, and that will have numerous names in the mix as well.   It just seems like he really would have been better off being patient(being willing to be a midseason callup) and finding a team with more questions in their rotation.   

In the article I linked to above, they list the reasons Prior signed with the Padres

"...in no particular order – San Diego (where he lives year-round); the pitcher-friendly dimensions of Petco Park; the Padres training staff; a chance to pitch with former teammate Greg Maddux, Cy Young Award winner Jake Peavy and all-time saves leader Trevor Hoffman, and the chance to pitch on a team managed by a former pitcher and former pitching coach."

Also he says he's trying to get his "swagger" back.  Can't do that being pressured to pitch on May 1. 

Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune implies tampering by the Padres,

"Back in November when Mark Prior was still property of the Cubs, Padres general manager Kevin Towers said he sometimes crossed paths with the enigmatic right-hander during morning walks in their San Diego neighborhood.

Their conversations may have been about the weather, the economy or the latest Lindsay Lohan gossip. But whatever the topic of discussion, the end result is that Prior eventually turned down the Cubs' offer to return to Chicago, knowing they would refuse to offer arbitration and make him a free agent, which would allow Prior to sign with his hometown team."
Link

 

DVauthrin

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #170 on: December 27, 2007, 05:11:04 pm »
In the article I linked to above, they list the reasons Prior signed with the Padres

"...in no particular order – San Diego (where he lives year-round); the pitcher-friendly dimensions of Petco Park; the Padres training staff; a chance to pitch with former teammate Greg Maddux, Cy Young Award winner Jake Peavy and all-time saves leader Trevor Hoffman, and the chance to pitch on a team managed by a former pitcher and former pitching coach."

Also he says he's trying to get his "swagger" back.  Can't do that being pressured to pitch on May 1. 

Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune implies tampering by the Padres,

"Back in November when Mark Prior was still property of the Cubs, Padres general manager Kevin Towers said he sometimes crossed paths with the enigmatic right-hander during morning walks in their San Diego neighborhood.

Their conversations may have been about the weather, the economy or the latest Lindsay Lohan gossip. But whatever the topic of discussion, the end result is that Prior eventually turned down the Cubs' offer to return to Chicago, knowing they would refuse to offer arbitration and make him a free agent, which would allow Prior to sign with his hometown team."
Link

 

I understand the park, the fact it's his hometown, all the great pitchers/ex pitching coach as the manager deal, and even the swagger deal, but what good does that do you when you:

A) Rush your recovery

B)  Go to a team where your best chance to pitch occurs only if you beat out 3 or 4 other guys for the 5th spot in a rotation or injury strikes

It seems he put his heart over his mind on this one.
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #171 on: December 27, 2007, 05:24:02 pm »
I understand the park, the fact it's his hometown, all the great pitchers/ex pitching coach as the manager deal, and even the swagger deal, but what good does that do you when you:

A) Rush your recovery

B)  Go to a team where your best chance to pitch occurs only if you beat out 3 or 4 other guys for the 5th spot in a rotation or injury strikes

It seems he put his heart over his mind on this one.

You think that rehabbing a year in Houston (Arlington? New York?!) would have been better?

BlownRanger

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #172 on: December 27, 2007, 05:44:25 pm »
In the article I linked to above, they list the reasons Prior signed with the Padres

"...in no particular order – San Diego (where he lives year-round); the pitcher-friendly dimensions of Petco Park; the Padres training staff; a chance to pitch with former teammate Greg Maddux, Cy Young Award winner Jake Peavy and all-time saves leader Trevor Hoffman, and the chance to pitch on a team managed by a former pitcher and former pitching coach."

Also he says he's trying to get his "swagger" back.  Can't do that being pressured to pitch on May 1. 

Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune implies tampering by the Padres,

"Back in November when Mark Prior was still property of the Cubs, Padres general manager Kevin Towers said he sometimes crossed paths with the enigmatic right-hander during morning walks in their San Diego neighborhood.

Their conversations may have been about the weather, the economy or the latest Lindsay Lohan gossip. But whatever the topic of discussion, the end result is that Prior eventually turned down the Cubs' offer to return to Chicago, knowing they would refuse to offer arbitration and make him a free agent, which would allow Prior to sign with his hometown team."
Link

 

If Prior (and I suppose his agent) really did make ballpark effects a major factor, I think they're being shortsighted.  If he wants to play at home, fine.  If he thinks SD is going to give him a better shot at post-season next year, fine.  But if he thinks that a handful of fly balls ending up in the Crawford Boxes is going to offset a better opportunity to actually pitch, I think he's wrong.  Potential suitors for '09 and beyond are not going to just look at the numbers at the end of next season.  Prior will be one of the most scouted players out there, and those scouting reports will carry a lot more weight than whatever his season-ending E.R.A. or HR/9 numbers look like, and he should want as many opportunities to display his stuff as possible.

As for the tampering suggestion:  whenever a player leaves a major media market, there are always a bunch of scribblers and yapping heads that assume something fishy had to happen to get the guy to leave their beloved city.
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DVauthrin

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #173 on: December 27, 2007, 07:33:00 pm »
You think that rehabbing a year in Houston (Arlington? New York?!) would have been better?

Considering he would have an easier path to a clear starting spot here or STL yes I do.  I wouldn't have even considered an AL team in his position.    He isn't displacing maddux,  peavy or young for sure, wolf is there as well and the pads still have guys like germano and hensley to compete with him for that last spot.

Here, everything is wide open after Roy.   I won't fault him for going home, but I don't think it was in his best interest for revitalizing his career myself.    Too much risk involved with him getting in their rotation.    Not to mention, if what Noe says is true about him going full bore in ST when a normal recovery time is May or June, then he is taking a major unnecessary chance.
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #174 on: December 27, 2007, 08:29:14 pm »
Considering he would have an easier path to a clear starting spot here or STL yes I do.  I wouldn't have even considered an AL team in his position.    He isn't displacing maddux,  peavy or young for sure, wolf is there as well and the pads still have guys like germano and hensley to compete with him for that last spot.

Here, everything is wide open after Roy.   I won't fault him for going home, but I don't think it was in his best interest for revitalizing his career myself.    Too much risk involved with him getting in their rotation.    Not to mention, if what Noe says is true about him going full bore in ST when a normal recovery time is May or June, then he is taking a major unnecessary chance.

You don't think it's in his best interest?  That is so cute.

DVauthrin

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #175 on: December 28, 2007, 12:56:19 am »
You don't think it's in his best interest?  That is so cute.

I wasn't giving Prior any advice so obviously my opinion is meaningless in that regard.   I was stating why I think this isn't the best situation for him to get the innings he wants in his comeback plans, considering he wanted only a 1 yr deal.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:58:02 am by DVauthrin »
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #176 on: December 28, 2007, 07:51:04 am »
I'm gathering that all the other teams were mere negotiating leverage.

Not really. It looks as if all the Padres had to do was make an offer. If Prior had come back and said, "other teams are interested", the Padres wouldn't really care. They would probably wish him good luck. It isn't a bad deal to them, but they weren't going to argue over it. Sure, he may never do anything this year to speak of, but if their rotation holds up well, he could become a trading chip at the deadline, or he could allow them to move someone else. If Prior bombs, they are out $1m. Best case, he makes a great recovery and the Padres have the home field advantage for negotiating a new contract.

Prior talked to the other teams in case his first choice fell through. No reason to turn down other teams until you actually sign a contract. In Prior's case, this is very true. He was hoping for a chance anywhere with little leverage.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 08:01:17 am by EasTexAstro »
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #177 on: December 28, 2007, 08:50:15 am »
Here, everything is wide open after Roy.   

I disagree. Woody, Backe, and Wandy are basically locks for the rotation if healthy. The 5th spot (not necessarily #5, if you catch my drift) is up for grabs.
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pravata

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #178 on: December 28, 2007, 09:12:09 am »
I wasn't giving Prior any advice so obviously my opinion is meaningless in that regard.   I was stating why I think this isn't the best situation for him to get the innings he wants in his comeback plans, considering he wanted only a 1 yr deal.



Since, to think what you think, you have to ignore the half dozen reasons he's given for why he does think it's the best situation, I doubt he'd take your advice anyway.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 09:14:16 am by pravata »

Arky Vaughan

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #179 on: December 28, 2007, 11:07:55 am »
Considering he would have an easier path to a clear starting spot here or STL yes I do.  I wouldn't have even considered an AL team in his position.    He isn't displacing maddux,  peavy or young for sure, wolf is there as well and the pads still have guys like germano and hensley to compete with him for that last spot.

Here, everything is wide open after Roy.   I won't fault him for going home, but I don't think it was in his best interest for revitalizing his career myself.    Too much risk involved with him getting in their rotation.    Not to mention, if what Noe says is true about him going full bore in ST when a normal recovery time is May or June, then he is taking a major unnecessary chance.

He may have a different view of what's best for him, it being his decision and all.

VirtualBob

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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #180 on: December 28, 2007, 11:19:16 am »
He may have a different view of what's best for him, it being his decision and all.

But Arky, that's why we have liberals ... to make sure we end up with what is really best for us rather than settle for our poor, misguided preferences.
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Re: "With eyes on Prior"
« Reply #181 on: December 28, 2007, 03:06:10 pm »
I wasn't giving Prior any advice so obviously my opinion is meaningless in that regard.   I was stating why I think this isn't the best situation for him to get the innings he wants in his comeback plans, considering he wanted only a 1 yr deal.

Makes one wonder about what Prior really wanted, but suffice it to say... yeah, he's doing what he wants to do.  The effect of this signing is that it sets a sort of parameter for other "coming off injury" type of starters: Benson, Matt Clement, Jon Lieber and Jason Jennings to name a few.

I wonder how many of those pitchers got a mini-jolt of reality when it comes to expectations for a contract this year.  I wouldn't mind Houston taking a similar flyer on Jennings as the one taken for Prior.  One year contract, possibly a one additional year club option with buyout.