Author Topic: Van Halen  (Read 24897 times)

Rebel Jew

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Van Halen
« on: December 17, 2007, 04:36:49 pm »
saw the dave reunion show last night in san jose, and i must say it was pretty damn good.  they played all the hits, plus lots of album tracks like atomic punk and little guitars.  eddie v's 16 year-old son wolfgang on bass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-0yVbWnx_k

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2007, 04:39:02 pm »
Boo to effin Wolfgang.  Michael Anthony got screwed.

Rebel Jew

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2007, 04:48:26 pm »
Boo to effin Wolfgang.  Michael Anthony got screwed.

anthony did get screwed, but they certainly could have made many worse choices-- like gary cherone on bass.  or this guy:  http://www.carvinmuseum.com/images/playersgallery/jameslomenzo-lb75.jpg, who is the current bass player of megadeth.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2007, 04:58:54 pm »
Supposedly Michael Anthony's backing vocals are on some of the taped backups and he got paid for that use during the shows.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2007, 05:06:52 pm »
At some point they changed the origional Van Halen I album cover to replace Michael Anthony with Wolfgang.  That's cold.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2007, 05:11:16 pm »
Supposedly Michael Anthony's backing vocals are on some of the taped backups and he got paid for that use during the shows.

b.s.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2007, 05:12:15 pm »
At some point they changed the origional Van Halen I album cover to replace Michael Anthony with Wolfgang.  That's cold.
Is that true?  or Photoshop?  If true..you suck Eddie.

Lurch

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2007, 05:15:13 pm »
Is that true?  or Photoshop?  If true..you suck Eddie.

I'm trying to find it again.  The boards were going crazy when they first saw it. I'm thinking it was on the official VH website, but it currently shows the right picture.


ETA: Here it is.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 05:20:26 pm by Lurch »
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2007, 08:58:50 pm »
What did Anthony do, anything? I wish they'd quit messing with a good thing.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2007, 09:10:14 pm »
What did Anthony do, anything? I wish they'd quit messing with a good thing.

He agreed to play with Sammy in Cabo
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2007, 12:20:19 am »
anthony did get screwed, but they certainly could have made many worse choices-- like gary cherone on bass.  or this guy:  http://www.carvinmuseum.com/images/playersgallery/jameslomenzo-lb75.jpg, who is the current bass player of megadeth.
Sorry dude. That foto absolutely broke up the room. You sure he doesn't play for Megapuss or the Jay and the Amoricans.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2007, 01:37:39 am »
They should have gotten Corey Parks to play bass. 
Boom!

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2007, 06:59:03 am »
Sure Eddie is a great guitarist but I always hated that band. David Lee Roth is a fucking cartoon. I know they're popular and a lot a people think they're fucking great. It amazes me that otherwise intelligent people would flock to see them. I guess it really does take all types of people to make this world go 'round.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2007, 07:08:49 am »
Sure Eddie is a great guitarist but I always hated that band. David Lee Roth is a fucking cartoon. I know they're popular and a lot a people think they're fucking great. It amazes me that otherwise intelligent people would flock to see them. I guess it really does take all types of people to make this world go 'round.


I guess I won't tell you how much I paid for tickets for their Jan 28th Houston gig.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2007, 08:10:36 am »
Need a good laugh? I give you 'Eddie Van Halen Shreds'. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXbCt_1mrak
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 08:33:11 am »
Need a good laugh? I give you 'Eddie Van Halen Shreds'. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXbCt_1mrak

That's pretty damn funny.  Sounds like my guitar playing.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2007, 09:11:14 am »
I have fond memories of going to Van Hagar at the Woodlands in 1995.  One of the first times I ever drank to excess.  Skid Row (with Sebastian Bach) opened.  But yeah, after I graduated high school and got away from the influence of my Van Halen-loving friends, I kinda lost interest...

Sure Eddie is a great guitarist but I always hated that band. David Lee Roth is a fucking cartoon. I know they're popular and a lot a people think they're fucking great. It amazes me that otherwise intelligent people would flock to see them. I guess it really does take all types of people to make this world go 'round.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2007, 10:54:05 am »
Sure Eddie is a great guitarist but I always hated that band. David Lee Roth is a fucking cartoon. I know they're popular and a lot a people think they're fucking great. It amazes me that otherwise intelligent people would flock to see them. I guess it really does take all types of people to make this world go 'round.

i understand some of the white trash fuck-yeah mystique surrounding them, but otherwise i've never understood why intelligent people can't see what makes them great.  i've heard lots of people make comments like yours, and i just think after a while you listen closely enough and you hear what everybody else is hearing.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2007, 10:56:17 am »
Sorry dude. That foto absolutely broke up the room. You sure he doesn't play for Megapuss or the Jay and the Amoricans.

he used to be the bass player for white lion.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2007, 10:56:41 am »
i understand some of the white trash fuck-yeah mystique surrounding them, but otherwise i've never understood why intelligent people can't see what makes them great.  i've heard lots of people make comments like yours, and i just think after a while you listen closely enough and you hear what everybody else is hearing.


I don't know about that.  I can't for the life of me figure out the fascination with Nirvana and especially Pearl Jam.  And it's not for lack of listening.  I just find them boring and unoriginal.  Sphinx has his reasons too, I suppose.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2007, 10:58:24 am »
he used to be the bass player for white lion.


Is that supposed to be a feather in his cap?
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2007, 11:05:21 am »

I don't know about that.  I can't for the life of me figure out the fascination with Nirvana and especially Pearl Jam.  And it's not for lack of listening.  I just find them boring and unoriginal.  Sphinx has his reasons too, I suppose.

there's a big difference between pop bands like the ones you mentioned and vh.  while i think nirvana holds up more for different reasons, van halen has a lot of elements that transcend just being a band that played some catchy songs or had good producers or whatever, and my point was that if one listens closely and with an unbiased mind then that person will hear those elements and understand the overall sound.  it's more than just eddie v is a great guitar player, or the drummer hits hard or whatever.  they may still not think it's their favorite band, but i don't think the "i don't get it" attitude will still be in effect.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 11:07:54 am by Joey Trum »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2007, 11:21:51 am »

I don't know about that.  I can't for the life of me figure out the fascination with Nirvana and especially Pearl Jam.  And it's not for lack of listening.  I just find them boring and unoriginal.  Sphinx has his reasons too, I suppose.

That's wild.  Nevermind and Ten are two of the greatest albums of all time.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2007, 12:21:56 pm »

I don't know about that.  I can't for the life of me figure out the fascination with Nirvana and especially Pearl Jam.  And it's not for lack of listening.  I just find them boring and unoriginal.  Sphinx has his reasons too, I suppose.

heresy...I grew up listening to and following EVH and his various mates and love them but they don't hold a candle to Nirvana or PJ...EVH may be be more talented than anyone in PJ but the overall musical experience and depth of PJ beats out VH for my dollar...of course, my college years were when PJ and the rest of that generation were taking off and that seems to factor heavily into people opinions into what is "good" or "bad" music...either way, fucking rock on

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2007, 12:23:13 pm »
*If* I offended anybody with my comments I apologize.

They're okay... I remember the first time I heard Van Halen. It was '76 and the radio DJ really pumped up "this new version" of You Really Got Me by the Kinks. I was as amazed by Eddie's riffs as I was offended DLR's caterwaul. There's something about the pirouetting, shrieking, spandex wearing, feather-boa sporting, stage antics that bug me. If it was a parody like Spinal Tap, I'd be fine with it.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2007, 12:23:35 pm »
he used to be the bass player for white lion.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2007, 12:42:37 pm »
*If* I offended anybody with my comments I apologize.

They're okay... I remember the first time I heard Van Halen. It was '76 and the radio DJ really pumped up "this new version" of You Really Got Me by the Kinks. I was as amazed by Eddie's riffs as I was offended DLR's caterwaul. There's something about the pirouetting, shrieking, spandex wearing, feather-boa sporting, stage antics that bug me. If it was a parody like Spinal Tap, I'd be fine with it.

i was not offended.  i think all that ancilliary stuff is just something you get or don't get, or maybe appreciate or don't appreciate.  lots of people seem to have that reaction to roth, but in my opinion the focus on the antics misses the point of what makes him such a great front man.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2007, 01:26:45 pm »
anthony did get screwed, but they certainly could have made many worse choices-- like gary cherone on bass.  or this guy:  http://www.carvinmuseum.com/images/playersgallery/jameslomenzo-lb75.jpg, who is the current bass player of megadeth.

Wow, you'd think with a band that cool they'd be able to sell more tickets.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2007, 02:22:27 pm »
there's a big difference between pop bands like the ones you mentioned and vh.  while i think nirvana holds up more for different reasons, van halen has a lot of elements that transcend just being a band that played some catchy songs or had good producers or whatever, and my point was that if one listens closely and with an unbiased mind then that person will hear those elements and understand the overall sound.  it's more than just eddie v is a great guitar player, or the drummer hits hard or whatever.  they may still not think it's their favorite band, but i don't think the "i don't get it" attitude will still be in effect.


In other words, if only people would listen they'd come to have the same tastes as you? 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2007, 02:24:40 pm »
heresy...I grew up listening to and following EVH and his various mates and love them but they don't hold a candle to Nirvana or PJ...EVH may be be more talented than anyone in PJ but the overall musical experience and depth of PJ beats out VH for my dollar...of course, my college years were when PJ and the rest of that generation were taking off and that seems to factor heavily into people opinions into what is "good" or "bad" music...either way, fucking rock on


Again, your tastes.  Personally, I find little or no depth or oringinality from PJ.  It's not bad music, just little that hadn't been done before.  I don't get the fascination with them.  If they inspire you, great.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Rebel Jew

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2007, 03:08:03 pm »

In other words, if only people would listen they'd come to have the same tastes as you? 

there's taste and there's appreciation-- different concepts, but not entirely foreign from each other.  "taste" is rooted in personal experience, while appreciation is about understanding and education, which leads to enjoyment.  it's like how two guys might see two equally attractive pretty girls across a bar, one a brunette and one a blonde.  one guy says "i like the blonde," while the other says "the brunette's more my taste."  neither guy thinks the other girl is unattractive, just that personal experiences, maybe even physiological predilictions, have made the one guy prefer blondes and the other guy prefer brunettes.

or what if this blonde/brunette scenario was slightly different?  the blonde girl has enormous fake boobs, lots of makeup, relentlessly conditioned blonde hair, and a cleavage-displaying outfit.  the brunette girl is dressed conservatively, has no makeup, and no obvious cleavage.  i'm sure a lot of guys would automatically pick the blonde, but the more discerning and educated would be able to look past all the surface stuff and pick out the beauty in the brunette or the ugly in the blonde.  this scenario goes beyond the jurisdiction of what one can intelligently determine strictly through taste, although there's lots of guys who would blindly cling to their "taste" when making a decision in this, or any number or related scenarios.

quality is what taste and appreciation have in common:  you could give me two exactly prepared meals by the same master chef, but if one was spicier than the other, I would prefer that.  that wouldn't stop me from appreciating and enjoying the not-as-spicy meal.  but if you served me a meal made by the Barf from You Can't Do That On Television, but garnished it up and talked it up like it was the greatest in the world, i could eat it a thousand times and analyze it in a thousand ways but i'd never be able to appreciate it in a substantial way.  maybe there's a person who grew up eating this kind of food exclusively, though, and so they've developed a certain nostalgia about it, a "taste" for it if you will, but  that's not the same thing as saying that it's a great or good meal.

certainly, "quality" is an ambiguous concept at times, and lots of people have their own opinions for what it is, but it is still something where a criteria can be set, and i think everybody sets their own criteria, consciously or not, when determining whether something is of quality.  the more educated one is, the more refined and open-minded their criteria and sense of quality will become.  when i was ten years old, my favorite album was the license to drive soundtrack.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 03:10:26 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2007, 03:27:53 pm »
Nevermind and Ten are two of the greatest albums of all time.

And so are VH1 and 1984

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2007, 03:34:51 pm »
heresy...I grew up listening to and following EVH and his various mates and love them but they don't hold a candle to Nirvana or PJ...EVH may be be more talented than anyone in PJ but the overall musical experience and depth of PJ beats out VH for my dollar...of course, my college years were when PJ and the rest of that generation were taking off and that seems to factor heavily into people opinions into what is "good" or "bad" music...either way, fucking rock on

If you think rock is about sex, booze, drugs and raising hell and everything else is BS, then you will always prefer Van Halen, especially DLR VH.  If you think it would be a nightmare to live in a world full of irresponsible, intoxicated young men and think its hypocritical to listen to a band that celebrates it with such abandon, then Pearl Jam is probably your style.

In the end both bands are really good and Pearl Jam probably listened to VH like everyone else when they were 16.  Also, rock is dead forever and will never come back, so its a moot point. 

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2007, 03:42:07 pm »
I dunno, I think most people like the music first and invent some kind of aesthetic explanation later.   Sure there's things you can point out about what appeals to you, but for me at least, it's got more to do with the beat than the message, or the instruments being played, attitude of the band, whether they wear spandex or not, etc. 

there's taste and there's appreciation-- different concepts, but not entirely foreign from each other.  "taste" is rooted in personal experience, while appreciation is about understanding and education, which leads to enjoyment.  it's like how two guys might see two equally attractive pretty girls across a bar, one a brunette and one a blonde.  one guy says "i like the blonde," while the other says "the brunette's more my taste."  neither guy thinks the other girl is unattractive, just that personal experiences, maybe even physiological predilictions, have made the one guy prefer blondes and the other guy prefer brunettes.

or what if this blonde/brunette scenario was slightly different?  the blonde girl has enormous fake boobs, lots of makeup, relentlessly conditioned blonde hair, and a cleavage-displaying outfit.  the brunette girl is dressed conservatively, has no makeup, and no obvious cleavage.  i'm sure a lot of guys would automatically pick the blonde, but the more discerning and educated would be able to look past all the surface stuff and pick out the beauty in the brunette or the ugly in the blonde.  this scenario goes beyond the jurisdiction of what one can intelligently determine strictly through taste, although there's lots of guys who would blindly cling to their "taste" when making a decision in this, or any number or related scenarios.

quality is what taste and appreciation have in common:  you could give me two exactly prepared meals by the same master chef, but if one was spicier than the other, I would prefer that.  that wouldn't stop me from appreciating and enjoying the not-as-spicy meal.  but if you served me a meal made by the Barf from You Can't Do That On Television, but garnished it up and talked it up like it was the greatest in the world, i could eat it a thousand times and analyze it in a thousand ways but i'd never be able to appreciate it in a substantial way.  maybe there's a person who grew up eating this kind of food exclusively, though, and so they've developed a certain nostalgia about it, a "taste" for it if you will, but  that's not the same thing as saying that it's a great or good meal.

certainly, "quality" is an ambiguous concept at times, and lots of people have their own opinions for what it is, but it is still something where a criteria can be set, and i think everybody sets their own criteria, consciously or not, when determining whether something is of quality.  the more educated one is, the more refined and open-minded their criteria and sense of quality will become.  when i was ten years old, my favorite album was the license to drive soundtrack.


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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2007, 03:45:54 pm »
there's taste and there's appreciation-- different concepts, but not entirely foreign from each other.  "taste" is rooted in personal experience, while appreciation is about understanding and education, which leads to enjoyment.  it's like how two guys might see two equally attractive pretty girls across a bar, one a brunette and one a blonde.  one guy says "i like the blonde," while the other says "the brunette's more my taste."  neither guy thinks the other girl is unattractive, just that personal experiences, maybe even physiological predilictions, have made the one guy prefer blondes and the other guy prefer brunettes.

or what if this blonde/brunette scenario was slightly different?  the blonde girl has enormous fake boobs, lots of makeup, relentlessly conditioned blonde hair, and a cleavage-displaying outfit.  the brunette girl is dressed conservatively, has no makeup, and no obvious cleavage.  i'm sure a lot of guys would automatically pick the blonde, but the more discerning and educated would be able to look past all the surface stuff and pick out the beauty in the brunette or the ugly in the blonde.  this scenario goes beyond the jurisdiction of what one can intelligently determine strictly through taste, although there's lots of guys who would blindly cling to their "taste" when making a decision in this, or any number or related scenarios.

quality is what taste and appreciation have in common:  you could give me two exactly prepared meals by the same master chef, but if one was spicier than the other, I would prefer that.  that wouldn't stop me from appreciating and enjoying the not-as-spicy meal.  but if you served me a meal made by the Barf from You Can't Do That On Television, but garnished it up and talked it up like it was the greatest in the world, i could eat it a thousand times and analyze it in a thousand ways but i'd never be able to appreciate it in a substantial way.  maybe there's a person who grew up eating this kind of food exclusively, though, and so they've developed a certain nostalgia about it, a "taste" for it if you will, but  that's not the same thing as saying that it's a great or good meal.

certainly, "quality" is an ambiguous concept at times, and lots of people have their own opinions for what it is, but it is still something where a criteria can be set, and i think everybody sets their own criteria, consciously or not, when determining whether something is of quality.  the more educated one is, the more refined and open-minded their criteria and sense of quality will become.  when i was ten years old, my favorite album was the license to drive soundtrack.



We get it.  You like ugly chicks.

We get that you have a raging hard on for VH.  That's fine.  But let's not act like they are some great fucking revelation to music that is so ridiculously transcendent that the only reason someone might not like them is ignorance.  Some might listen to them until the cows come home and conclude that there's nothing there.  It's not ignorance or refinement or whatever other pretentious bullshit you want to call it.  Music, like all other art, is subjective.  Some people aren't going to like-- or "dig" as the kids these days are saying-- what you like.  It doesn't make it any better or worse for you.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2007, 03:47:04 pm »
Also, rock is dead forever and will never come back, so its a moot point. 

The rock of the '50s and '60s may be dead, but good music will never die, cliche and all. It's the bottomline of record labels that've fucked the soul out of commerical music, I think. Top 40 now sucks ass, big time, imo. Sirius and XM have great channels, though, and with the internet you just have to dig a little deeper to find the music you like. I've found tons of great stuff from here: www.pandora.com

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2007, 03:49:43 pm »
Some people aren't going to like-- or "dig" as the kids these days are saying-- what you like. 


Kids don't really say "dig", do they?
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2007, 03:51:33 pm »
I thought that Van Halen was the band that everyone outgrew by the time they turned 16.  

and 1984 is one of the greatest albums of all time???????  That's the one that has "Jump" on it, right?  You are freaking out of your mind, you know that . . . don't you.  
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2007, 03:52:04 pm »

Kids don't really say "dig", do they?

Fuckin'-A, they do!
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2007, 03:53:09 pm »
Top 40 now sucks ass,

Only now?  I think this can go right back to the disco era.

There is still some great music out there....one just has to look a little harder.  But it is there and I really believe it's getting stronger.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2007, 03:53:49 pm »

Kids don't really say "dig", do they?

You're right.  I think it's d-izz-ig.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2007, 04:21:07 pm »
I dunno, I think most people like the music first and invent some kind of aesthetic explanation later.   Sure there's things you can point out about what appeals to you, but for me at least, it's got more to do with the beat than the message, or the instruments being played, attitude of the band, whether they wear spandex or not, etc. 


appreciation is just a way of explaining later what you first hear and feel on an aesthetic level.  to me, the beat is all tied together with the message, instruments, attitude.  it all hits you at once, and then later on you sort through the details.  you wouldn't necessarily listen to an album that just had the drum and bass mix of a song you like-- you want the whole package.  maybe there are some elements of that package more appealing than others, but it's all relevant.  despite what i might sound like, i'm hardly the type who would intellectually deconstruct a song while i'm listening to it.  but later on, i think that type of analysis does play a role, because music does have an impact on us after we've listened to it, and we can learn a lot by thinking about why it impacts us in the way that it does.  i mean, why do any of us bother to discuss baseball on this forum?  why don't we just watch the games, do the wave like we're supposed to, and give our team a downtown victory parade if they happen to win a championship?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 04:23:27 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2007, 05:42:26 pm »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2007, 06:47:36 pm »
That's crazy man, crazy.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2007, 07:57:12 pm »
I'm in love with rock and roll and I'll be out all night.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2007, 10:46:55 pm »
there's taste and there's appreciation-- (snip)  when i was ten years old, my favorite album was the license to drive soundtrack.

With all the fluffy middle taken out, this is a fantastic post. I dunno, I see where you're going, but I've got to side with Trey on this. If I don't get all aflutter about Van Halen, it's not (necessarily) because I'm undiscerning and uneducated. It's possible that I just think it's semi-okay cock-rock songwriting with great musicianship, fronted by a guy who makes me cringe, even if I've reeeeeeaaaaally listened. And that's no affront to you, but shit man... you don't even like Shiner. That's a tough foundation for writing a treatise on taste on this board.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2007, 08:42:13 am »
The rock of the '50s and '60s may be dead, but good music will never die, cliche and all. It's the bottomline of record labels that've fucked the soul out of commerical music, I think. Top 40 now sucks ass, big time, imo. Sirius and XM have great channels, though, and with the internet you just have to dig a little deeper to find the music you like. I've found tons of great stuff from here: www.pandora.com

I enjoy Pandora as well. 

Taking digs at top 40 music is fun.  An acapella group Da Vinci's Notebook put out a song a few years ago called "title of the song" which is a template for all boy band hits.  Pretty good stuff.

DN had a pretty good sense of humor, they also had a quasi hit (not to be confused with Jacksonian's quasi) with their song http://=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9iiU6NDxIo&feature=related"My Enormous Penis"
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2007, 10:12:34 am »
With all the fluffy middle taken out, this is a fantastic post. I dunno, I see where you're going, but I've got to side with Trey on this. If I don't get all aflutter about Van Halen, it's not (necessarily) because I'm undiscerning and uneducated. It's possible that I just think it's semi-okay cock-rock songwriting with great musicianship, fronted by a guy who makes me cringe, even if I've reeeeeeaaaaally listened. And that's no affront to you, but shit man... you don't even like Shiner. That's a tough foundation for writing a treatise on taste on this board.

let me just say what i probably should have said before my confusing diatribe:  1.  i think that viewing VH as a cock rock band with a great guitar player misses the point  2. i think that music is much more than just a subjective thing, and i think it's a mistake to blindly excuse differences in opinion as such  3. i've never really liked Shiner, but after hearing everybody here rave about the specialty Shiners like '97, I really want to know what i'm missing.  i even made my wife scour liquor stores to get me a sixer when she was in texas a couple of weeks ago.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2007, 10:28:21 am »
An acapella group Da Vinci's Notebook put out a song a few years ago called "title of the song" which is a template for all boy band hits.[/url]

That's funny stuff.


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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 10:43:03 am »
let me just say what i probably should have said before my confusing diatribe:  1.  i think that viewing VH as a cock rock band with a great guitar player misses the point  2. i think that music is much more than just a subjective thing, and i think it's a mistake to blindly excuse differences in opinion as such  3. i've never really liked Shiner, but after hearing everybody here rave about the specialty Shiners like '97, I really want to know what i'm missing.  i even made my wife scour liquor stores to get me a sixer when she was in texas a couple of weeks ago.

Fair enough. I guess I'm still not getting it. 1. What is the point? 2. How are differences in opinion objective? 3. Do you appreciate Shiner Bock, even though you don't think it's good? Because you're on record as saying that you hope the other beers are of higher quality, which doesn't seem to jive with the appreciation vs. taste argument you're making about Van Halen. That is, you don't personally like Shiner Bock, so it's not high quality. Not picking at it, but I really don't follow.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2007, 10:52:53 am »
or what if this blonde/brunette scenario was slightly different?  the blonde girl has enormous fake boobs, lots of makeup, relentlessly conditioned blonde hair, and a cleavage-displaying outfit.  the brunette girl is dressed conservatively, has no makeup, and no obvious cleavage.  i'm sure a lot of guys would automatically pick the blonde, but the more discerning and educated would be able to look past all the surface stuff and pick out the beauty in the brunette or the ugly in the blonde.  this scenario goes beyond the jurisdiction of what one can intelligently determine strictly through taste, although there's lots of guys who would blindly cling to their "taste" when making a decision in this, or any number or related scenarios.
  You mean kind of like these girls? http://content.jengajam.com/dilato.wmv
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 11:30:43 am by Curly »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2007, 11:29:07 am »
Fair enough. I guess I'm still not getting it. 1. What is the point? 2. How are differences in opinion objective? 3. Do you appreciate Shiner Bock, even though you don't think it's good? Because you're on record as saying that you hope the other beers are of higher quality, which doesn't seem to jive with the appreciation vs. taste argument you're making about Van Halen. That is, you don't personally like Shiner Bock, so it's not high quality. Not picking at it, but I really don't follow.

opinion is subjective, sure, but the object of opinion is universal and the means by which we form our opinions is, i think, at least 3/4 based on objective criteria.  that is why people always claim to strive to make an "objective opinion" about something, because we are all aware of how our "taste" can corrupt our understanding about something.  and since understanding shapes our ability to experience, it is important to open our minds as much as possible so that we can enhance our experiences.

i've never much thought highly of the taste of standard shiner bock.  i've always considered it a somewhat average beer, chalking up the popularity to the true texas mystique surrounding it, the fact that it's the first microbrew that lots of people drink in their lives, and the fact that it's a widely available beer in texas at lots of places where your only alternatives are buds and millers.  i used to drink celis pale bock all the time when their brewery was still in austin, and that beer seemed to me to be obviously superior to shiner.  however, one time i was at a wedding reception in the town of shiner that had shiner on tap, and it was pretty good.  that experience, plus the comments of people around here, make me wonder if i'm missing something.  my wife got me a sixer of '97, and i'll be able to drink it in a couple of months and let you know my opinion.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 11:39:07 am by Joey Trum »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2007, 12:07:18 pm »
2. i think that music is much more than just a subjective thing, and i think it's a mistake to blindly excuse differences in opinion as such 


Like any art, musical enjoyment is entirely subjective.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2007, 12:33:36 pm »
You can also analyze it to death. I'd rather just be open to everything, then pick up what you like and throw away what you don't.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2007, 12:58:45 pm »
You can also analyze it to death. I'd rather just be open to everything, then pick up what you like and throw away what you don't.

exactly....different strokes for different folks.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2007, 02:04:34 pm »
exactly....different strokes for different folks.

Except for Grand Funk Railroad.  If you don't like them, then you suck-- or R FOO.  I forget which.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2007, 02:24:58 pm »
Sometimes, there's too many notes.
Everyone's talking, few of them know
The rest are pretending, they put on a show
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2007, 02:36:59 pm »
my wife got me a sixer of '97, and i'll be able to drink it in a couple of months and let you know my opinion.

why wait a couple of months to drink the '97?
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2007, 03:30:37 pm »
I don't know about that.  I can't for the life of me figure out the fascination with Nirvana and especially Pearl Jam.  And it's not for lack of listening.  I just find them boring and unoriginal.  Sphinx has his reasons too, I suppose.

It's all about context.  Do you remember the other shit that had overrun radio before "Teen Spirit" broke?
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2007, 03:32:19 pm »
If it was a parody like Spinal Tap, I'd be fine with it.

David Lee Roth is a parody of Spinal Tap.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2007, 03:33:17 pm »
It's all about context.  Do you remember the other shit that had overrun radio before "Teen Spirit" broke?

You mean the same shit that continues to overrun radio?

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2007, 03:35:49 pm »
Here's one thing I know. Someone brought in a bunch of Amy's ice cream this afternoon, and I'm currently enjoying the shit out of a gigantic Coke float... objectively. If someone were to try this thing and tell me it's anything less than spectacular, they'd be wrong, and I would fight them. FACT!
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2007, 03:37:28 pm »
Slade!
http://www.merryxmaseverybody.co.uk/

Careful!  You are inviting edited highlights from the Twelve Days of YouTube.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2007, 03:40:43 pm »
Here's one thing I know...I'm currently enjoying the shit out of a gigantic Cock...

FIFY  NTTAWWT
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2007, 03:45:29 pm »
FIFY  NTTAWWT

Son of a bitch.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2007, 03:50:09 pm »
Son of a bitch.

(rifling through directory of old softball photos, launching photoshop)

There better not be a picture of me hugging a cock.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2007, 03:58:03 pm »
Here's one thing I know. Someone brought in a bunch of Amy's ice cream this afternoon, and I'm currently enjoying the shit out of a gigantic Coke float... objectively. If someone were to try this thing and tell me it's anything less than spectacular, they'd be wrong, and I would fight them. FACT!

damn, i miss that place.  however, this place:  http://www.mitchellsicecream.com/html/index.htm is right near my house.

http://www.mitchellsicecream.com/html/halo%20halo.htm

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2007, 04:04:56 pm »
It's all about context.  Do you remember the other shit that had overrun radio before "Teen Spirit" broke?

I still remember watching Teen Spirit's debut on Headbangers Ball (!) and it was unlike anything else I'd heard.  It was an amazing What The Fuck Was That moment for me, at least.  
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2007, 04:09:39 pm »
I still remember watching Teen Spirit's debut on Headbangers Ball (!) and it was unlike anything else I'd heard.  It was an amazing What The Fuck Was That moment for me, at least. 

Right.  I am partial to Nirvana, so that's that, but when it hit it was a total departure from the shitefest then being served up as musical entertainment.  Plus, tattooed cheerleaders!  How could it be wrong?
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2007, 04:33:24 pm »
I still remember watching Teen Spirit's debut on Headbangers Ball (!) and it was unlike anything else I'd heard.  It was an amazing What The Fuck Was That moment for me, at least.  
i thought nevermind was great, but i also think cobain's legend is what it is because he decided to eat a shotgun shell.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2007, 04:42:24 pm »
i thought nevermind was great, but i also think cobain's legend is what it is because he decided to eat a shotgun shell.

He was legendary before then, but dying is always good for an artist's career.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2007, 04:57:08 pm »
I still remember watching Teen Spirit's debut on Headbangers Ball (!) and it was unlike anything else I'd heard.  It was an amazing What The Fuck Was That moment for me, at least.  

I remember at one point MTV had the lyrics at the bottom of the screen with a little bouncing ball on the syllable which was being pronounced at the time. Now, I can't believe anybody had any trouble understanding the words to any of those songs.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2007, 06:17:59 pm »
It's all about context.  Do you remember the other shit that had overrun radio before "Teen Spirit" broke?

I didn't listent to top 40 before that anyway.  Besides, I don't find "Teen Spirit" any better than the garbage that it replaced.  Again, diff'rent strokes.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2007, 07:28:47 pm »
There better not be a picture of me hugging a cock.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2007, 08:12:56 pm »
I didn't listent to top 40 before that anyway.  Besides, I don't find "Teen Spirit" any better than the garbage that it replaced.  Again, diff'rent strokes.

I don't think the context was the top 40 but the shit that was being passed as hard rock.  With maybe the exception of Metillica, rock had become a wasteland of hair band ballad making cuntdome.  Nirvana, PJ, AIC, Cornell, RATM, et al saved my generation, imho.  Agree about the different strokes thought but I am not following how you can call any of it unoriginal.  Seemed to me at the time to be quite the opposite.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2007, 10:22:29 pm »
I don't think the context was the top 40 but the shit that was being passed as hard rock.  With maybe the exception of Metillica, rock had become a wasteland of hair band ballad making cuntdome.  Nirvana, PJ, AIC, Cornell, RATM, et al saved my generation, imho.  Agree about the different strokes thought but I am not following how you can call any of it unoriginal.  Seemed to me at the time to be quite the opposite.


The wasteland of hair bands was top 40.  They were replaced by the Nirvanas and Pearl Jams of the world, which then became top 40.  And if you think Pearl Jam was original, you don't remember the 70's.  Again, they're not bad, just didn't interest me personally. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2007, 11:29:03 pm »

The wasteland of hair bands was top 40.  They were replaced by the Nirvanas and Pearl Jams of the world, which then became top 40.  And if you think Pearl Jam was original, you don't remember the 70's.  Again, they're not bad, just didn't interest me personally. 

Exactly, and while the Nirvanas and Pearl Jams of the world were then becoming the darlings of MTV culture (only to be soon replaced by the "alternative" music scene), there was still an underground scene in the prog and prog metal that was growing and blossoming particularly in Europe and other parts of the world.  Fates Warning, Dream Theater, Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Magellan and many other bands are only a few that immediately to my mind...and everyone of these were far more talented and original than grunge bands of the 90's.  The grunge music of the 90's needed the video culture to bring their music to the masses and become "legendary" as some might say and I would agree that it was hardly original....maybe to the younger teenager crowd at that time it was.  And rather than being about "sex, drugs and rock n roll" (like most earlier rock and even blues - ever listened to the lyrics of the late great Robert Johnson?), it was about drugs, depression, misery, and blowing your freaking brains out.  I didn't get it as I was then in my early to mid 20's. 

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2007, 12:15:13 am »
Exactly, and while the Nirvanas and Pearl Jams of the world were then becoming the darlings of MTV culture (only to be soon replaced by the "alternative" music scene), there was still an underground scene in the prog and prog metal that was growing and blossoming particularly in Europe and other parts of the world.  Fates Warning, Dream Theater, Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Magellan and many other bands are only a few that immediately to my mind...and everyone of these were far more talented and original than grunge bands of the 90's.  The grunge music of the 90's needed the video culture to bring their music to the masses and become "legendary" as some might say and I would agree that it was hardly original....maybe to the younger teenager crowd at that time it was.  And rather than being about "sex, drugs and rock n roll" (like most earlier rock and even blues - ever listened to the lyrics of the late great Robert Johnson?), it was about drugs, depression, misery, and blowing your freaking brains out.  I didn't get it as I was then in my early to mid 20's. 

ha!  you praise dream theater as "underground" and diss on grunge for being unoriginal.  if only early 90's mtv could have gotten all those younger teenagers into a sixty years-dead blues singer instead of all those sellouts from seattle-- how wonderful today's world would be!

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #78 on: December 20, 2007, 02:40:26 am »
I still remember watching Teen Spirit's debut on Headbangers Ball (!) and it was unlike anything else I'd heard.  It was an amazing What The Fuck Was That moment for me, at least. 

I was a freshman at UT around the time the Seattle music scene caught on in Austin. I spent countless hours hanging out at Sound Exchange and became well versed in all the hot Sub Pop bands circa 1989-90--Mudhoney, Green River, Soundgarden, Tad, L7, Afghan Whigs, The Fluid, CatButt, Beat Happening, and, of course, Nirvana. I loved Mudhoney (and still do)  but when I heard Bleach for the first time a few months after its release I was fuckin blown away. From that point on I became a huge Nirvana fan and was always pissed that they never came to Austin on that Bleach tour, so by the time they finally made their way down here for the first time, there was no way I was gonna miss it. This was about two or three weeks after Nevermind was released, just about a month before Smells Like Teen Spirit went bonkers, and the band's manager scheduled an in-store appearance at Waterloo that day that probably should've been shut down by the fire marshall. I remember getting drunk on Shiner waiting forever for the band to get there, and then they played just a couple of songs before Kurt Cobian freaked about something and split. That night they played an insanely crowded, sweaty, frenzied, loud, badass show at Liberty Lunch that I'll never forget. For seven bucks.

God how I miss Liberty Lunch.


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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2007, 02:43:22 am »
Exactly, and while the Nirvanas and Pearl Jams of the world were then becoming the darlings of MTV culture (only to be soon replaced by the "alternative" music scene), there was still an underground scene in the prog and prog metal that was growing and blossoming particularly in Europe and other parts of the world.  Fates Warning, Dream Theater, Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Magellan and many other bands are only a few that immediately to my mind...and everyone of these were far more talented and original than grunge bands of the 90's.  The grunge music of the 90's needed the video culture to bring their music to the masses and become "legendary" as some might say and I would agree that it was hardly original....maybe to the younger teenager crowd at that time it was.  And rather than being about "sex, drugs and rock n roll" (like most earlier rock and even blues - ever listened to the lyrics of the late great Robert Johnson?), it was about drugs, depression, misery, and blowing your freaking brains out.  I didn't get it as I was then in my early to mid 20's. 

Nirvana became popular because Kurt Cobain was an extremely talented songwriter who knew how to write a catchy hook. Prog metal sucked, btw.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 02:45:06 am by matadorph »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #80 on: December 20, 2007, 09:01:28 am »
Nirvana became popular because Kurt Cobain was an extremely talented songwriter who knew how to write a catchy hook. Prog metal sucked, btw.
I don't think there is any doubt that Cobain had talent.  But I am not sure he was the talent some people today make him out to be.  As was pointed out he died at the height of this popularity, thus making him legendary.  But I agree (and perhaps it is my age) that most of the music from the late 80's since has been pretty ordinary as far as music goes.  This statement is of course a generalization as anyone can find bits and pieces of good stuff here and there.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #81 on: December 20, 2007, 09:02:52 am »
ha!  you praise dream theater as "underground" and diss on grunge for being unoriginal.

Dream Theater *was* underground back in the early 90's, when you were listening to the mainstream "grunge".  See, this is your problem.  I could easily say that if you don't think Dream Theater is absolutely brilliant, possibly the single best band in the last 30 years, you have absolutely no comprehension of music.  But that wouldn't be very objective, now would it?
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2007, 09:04:28 am »
Prog metal sucked, btw.


You obviously haven't listened to it enough.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2007, 09:05:29 am »
The wasteland of hair bands was top 40.  They were replaced by the Nirvanas and Pearl Jams of the world, which then became top 40.

True.  Then grunge became ubiquitous, then over-exposed, then annoying.

And the music biz put a big push on, and replaced it with Hootie.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2007, 09:10:00 am »
True.  Then grunge became ubiquitous, then over-exposed, then annoying.

And the music biz put a big push on, and replaced it with Hootie.

You may now smash a radio or kick a small domestic animal.

Hootie was the first "real" rock concert I ever went to.  It was during the end of my senior year of high school, right before they got huge.  They sold out a college basketball arena (~8K people) the day of the show.  Within a year and a half they got huge and then fell off the map so bad a guy I knew couldn't GIVE his tickets away.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2007, 09:13:43 am »
True.  Then grunge became ubiquitous, then over-exposed, then annoying.

And the music biz put a big push on, and replaced it with Hootie.

You may now smash a radio or kick a small domestic animal.



This is why I don't like applying a label on music.  There was a time when Nirvana was top 40 and Britney Spears was "alternative".  It's all about personal taste.  One man's trash is another man's treasure sort of thing.  I suspect that many who are so adament about their particular favorites being the only "real" music have never been musicians themselves. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2007, 09:29:59 am »
...I suspect that many who are so adament about their particular favorites being the only "real" music have never been musicians themselves. 

And... the Music Snob trump card has now been officially played...

Seriously, I understand what you are saying.  However, I have never been a musician and I enjoy a wide variety of music.  From Latin to some top 40 to every Zeppelin album ever recorded to every VH albmum (pre Gary Sharone) to Bob Marley.  There are things I won't listen to because I don't like the sound or I find it tedious to listen for one reason or another.  I find humor in acting like a music snob, mostly to agitate my wife a bit (she's a hopeless Top 40 fan)....
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #87 on: December 20, 2007, 09:37:45 am »
Hootie was the first "real" rock concert I ever went to.  It was during the end of my senior year of high school, right before they got huge.  They sold out a college basketball arena (~8K people) the day of the show.  Within a year and a half they got huge and then fell off the map so bad a guy I knew couldn't GIVE his tickets away.

Basically, the music wasn't interesting enough to hold up to repeated listenings, let alone repeated listenings ad nauseam which is what the music biz did to them.  See Non-Blonds, 4.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #88 on: December 20, 2007, 09:56:47 am »
Basically, the music wasn't interesting enough to hold up to repeated listenings, let alone repeated listenings ad nauseam which is what the music biz did to them.  See Non-Blonds, 4.

Hootie was what it was (were what it were?).  A fun pop record that would have been fine to hear occassionally ont he radio and/or listen to in your car every now and again for a few months.  Radio beat them to death, figuratively and figuratively.
Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2007, 10:24:44 am »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2007, 10:56:30 am »
At that point, it was more of "I have all the rest, may as well complete the set...".  It's not their best effort, by far.  There are far worse albums out there though, just none of them were made by Led Zeppelin.  In other words, relative to their other recordings, it sucked.  I'll listen to it 1 million times before I ever buy a Hootie CD.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2007, 11:04:08 am »
At that point, it was more of "I have all the rest, may as well complete the set...".  It's not their best effort, by far.  There are far worse albums out there though, just none of them were made by Led Zeppelin.  In other words, relative to their other recordings, it sucked.  I'll listen to it 1 million times before I ever buy a Hootie CD.

I see where you are coming from.  Not sure I can back that last statement.  I don't think Hootie (in moderation) is horrible.  I am sure that is because I am not a musician.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2007, 11:06:32 am »
I see where you are coming from.  Not sure I can back that last statement.  I don't think Hootie (in moderation) is horrible.  I am sure that is because I am not a musician.

Maybe... or just bad taste in music.   And yes, this is the sort of thing my Hootie CD-owning wife would hear from me.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2007, 11:06:58 am »
Coda sucked, IMO

CODA was nothing more than a compilation of outtakes from previous recording sessions that was released after Bonham passed away.  It nothing more than that.  

However, I found "In Through The Out Door", their real last studio release, to be somewhat uninspiring particular when compared to all their previous releases.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2007, 11:11:28 am »
CODA was nothing more than a compilation of outtakes from previous recording sessions that was released after Bonham passed away.  It nothing more than that. 

However, I found "In Through The Out Door", their real last studio release, to be somewhat uninspiring particular when compared to all their previous releases.

You are dying to hi-jack this thread, even further, into a discussion of the brilliance of Led Zeppelin.  I can tell.  I won't take the bait... I won't!! 
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2007, 11:13:36 am »
You are dying to hi-jack this thread, even further, into a discussion of the brilliance of Led Zeppelin.  I can tell.  I won't take the bait... I won't!! 

???? Don't know where you're coming from but Zeppelin is one of my personal favorites. 

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2007, 11:17:10 am »
Mine too.... but this thread went from Van Halen to debating the core factors in musical taste.   If you want to start a critique/discussion of the various areas of innovation, originality, and overall brilliance of Led Zeppelin, I won't stop you...
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2007, 11:24:26 am »
Dream Theater *was* underground back in the early 90's, when you were listening to the mainstream "grunge".  See, this is your problem.  I could easily say that if you don't think Dream Theater is absolutely brilliant, possibly the single best band in the last 30 years, you have absolutely no comprehension of music.  But that wouldn't be very objective, now would it?

HH-- I'm sure this reaction won't surprise you, but I think your defensiveness and stubbornness about the divinity of opinion proves my point.  If I told you something like Jeff Bagwell was a shitty base runner because he was never in the top 5 in stolen bases, would you take that seriously because it's my "opinion," or would you just assume that I was uninformed?  Glen Barker was the best base runner because he was fast.  Carl Lewis would have been a great base runner.  The Astros are racist because they don't have any african american players.

Dream Theater and all those other bands he mentioned are and were about as underground as a young life meeting.  They're music majors from the east coast and Sweden! who got beat up in the parking lot of Iron Maiden concerts.

Spock's Beard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ8ArciKdZo

Fates Warning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzq06pwOKfk

The Flower Kings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fD7Sb-Hbao
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 11:27:12 am by Joey Trum »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2007, 12:04:08 pm »
And... the Music Snob trump card has now been officially played...

Seriously, I understand what you are saying.  However, I have never been a musician and I enjoy a wide variety of music.  From Latin to some top 40 to every Zeppelin album ever recorded to every VH albmum (pre Gary Sharone) to Bob Marley.  There are things I won't listen to because I don't like the sound or I find it tedious to listen for one reason or another.  I find humor in acting like a music snob, mostly to agitate my wife a bit (she's a hopeless Top 40 fan)....


I don't think it's being a snob, just an example of people who have no talent criticizing those who do.  We all do it, but that doesn't make our opinions "objective" in any way.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2007, 12:13:23 pm »
HH-- I'm sure this reaction won't surprise you, but I think your defensiveness and stubbornness about the divinity of opinion proves my point.  If I told you something like Jeff Bagwell was a shitty base runner because he was never in the top 5 in stolen bases, would you take that seriously because it's my "opinion," or would you just assume that I was uninformed?  Glen Barker was the best base runner because he was fast.  Carl Lewis would have been a great base runner.  The Astros are racist because they don't have any african american players.

This is pure gibberish.  None of this is analogous to music in any way or relevant to the conversation at hand.  Art appreciation is subjective.  It's like you telling me "Your wife is ugly and no one who's ever seen enough women would marry her, so you're obviously a dumbass".  I don't give a shit what you think, it's not about you, it's about me.  My marrying her means neither she's considered universally ugly, nor universally beautiful.  It just means I like her.  Which is all that matters, despite your pontificating about having the only true standard of beauty.

Quote
Dream Theater and all those other bands he mentioned are and were about as underground as a young life meeting.  They're music majors from the east coast and Sweden! who got beat up in the parking lot of Iron Maiden concerts.

What's your point?  That they've always been mainstream bands?  You're wrong.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2007, 12:44:29 pm »
This is pure gibberish.  None of this is analogous to music in any way or relevant to the conversation at hand.  Art appreciation is subjective.  It's like you telling me "Your wife is ugly and no one who's ever seen enough women would marry her, so you're obviously a dumbass".  I don't give a shit what you think, it's not about you, it's about me.  My marrying her means neither she's considered universally ugly, nor universally beautiful.  It just means I like her.  Which is all that matters, despite your pontificating about having the only true standard of beauty.

What's your point?  That they've always been mainstream bands?  You're wrong.

but i'm sure you have a standard by which you'd find the hypothetical wife attractive.  it's not just, "eh, she has big boobs."  heck, maybe that's all it is, but that standard is something tangible that you would be able to explain to me if i called your wife ugly.  if i said back to you, "yeah, she has big boobs, but she's got one eye, two noses and a beard," you'd be able to explain to me that that stuff doesn't bother you, that beauty's only skin-deep, or that all you care about is boobs, and i'd understand that and that's a response that shows you get it-- you're not ignoring the one eye, two noses, and beard, or deluding yourself into thinking it's the pillar of beauty, you're just accepting it for what it is and focusing on other aspects that you find more appealing.  conversely, if you just said to me, "she's the prettiest girl in the world, and that's my opinion, so shut up about it," i'd think you had a complex about her or that you'd gone crazy.  sure, she's your hypothetical wife and maybe you love her for what she is, but i'd call bs on any claims about her great overall beauty.

not being top 40 and being "underground" is not the same thing.  those bands were never underground, even when they were unsigned.  they were college music majors.  by that measure you could call yanni and john tesh underground before they started selling lots of albums.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2007, 12:45:20 pm »
CODA was nothing more than a compilation of outtakes from previous recording sessions that was released after Bonham passed away.  It nothing more than that.  

However, I found "In Through The Out Door", their real last studio release, to be somewhat uninspiring particular when compared to all their previous releases.

The version of "I Can't Quit You Baby" from Coda is superior to the one on LZ I.  It was recorded during rehersals for the Royal Albert Hall show that you can watch on the DVD they realeased a few years ago.

In Through the Out Door was a product of the changing music scene of the times (more heavily relied on synthesizers) but still one day I put it in the old tape deck of my car and couldn't take it out because it's like an old friend you haven't talked to in a long, long time.

I was born the same day the untitled 4th album was released, so I was destined to be a Zeppelin freak.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2007, 12:58:23 pm »
This thread seems like the perfect place to link to the almost impossible rock and roll quiz.

Carry on.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2007, 01:25:33 pm »
This thread seems like the perfect place to link to the almost impossible rock and roll quiz.

Carry on.

29.  Not bad as I guessed at 90% of them.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #104 on: December 20, 2007, 01:41:06 pm »
but i'm sure you have a standard by which you'd find the hypothetical wife attractive.


No I don't.  I didn't size her up compared to some published standard as if I were buying a set of tires.  It's not about meeting someone else's arbitrary standards, it's about what I personally like. 

Quote
not being top 40 and being "underground" is not the same thing.  those bands were never underground, even when they were unsigned.  they were college music majors. 

"Underground" means not being popular in the mainstream of radio and record sales.  It has nothing to do with what they studied in college. 

Quote
by that measure you could call yanni and john tesh underground before they started selling lots of albums.

Yes, you could.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2007, 02:00:22 pm »
I suspect that many who are so adament about their particular favorites being the only "real" music have never been musicians themselves. 

I bet your band sucked.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2007, 02:09:30 pm »
I bet your band sucked.


Not as hard as your mother.
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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2007, 02:37:41 pm »

No I don't.  I didn't size her up compared to some published standard as if I were buying a set of tires.  It's not about meeting someone else's arbitrary standards, it's about what I personally like. 


there is a tangible reason you like her, though-- even if it's the way she smells, or because she reminds you of your mother, there's a reason.  you weren't blindfolded when you met her.  there's something about her that makes you think she's attractive, and that is something you'd be able to explain and have probably explained already to yourself, and would especially explain to someone calling her ugly.

art appreciation is not entirely or even predominantly subjective.  if somebody held up a finger paint picture that a six year-old made and called it the greatest work of art of all time, i'd think that person was wrong no matter how much they believed it.  surely there's something valid that person likes about the picture, and it would be important to identify that trait, but if that person was able to freely see and understand the many works of art that display that trait in more interesting, complex, and long-lasting ways, that person's appreciation of art would grow.  certainly there's no universal consensus on what great art is, and there shouldn't be, but there are some obvious, universal characteristics manifested in ways specific to the given medium that people will pick up on the more educated they are and the more open their minds are.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 02:43:46 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2007, 04:00:41 pm »
there's something about her that makes you think she's attractive, and that is something you'd be able to explain and have probably explained already to yourself, and would especially explain to someone calling her ugly.

Of course.  That's my point entirely.  I find her attractive by my standards, not by yours or anyone else's.  That doens't make your standards wrong.


Quote
art appreciation is not entirely or even predominantly subjective.  if somebody held up a finger paint picture that a six year-old made and called it the greatest work of art of all time, i'd think that person was wrong no matter how much they believed it.

Which is what makes it entirely subjective.  They believe it, you don't.  You're both using your own subjective standards. 

Quote
certainly there's no universal consensus on what great art is, and there shouldn't be, but there are some obvious, universal characteristics manifested in ways specific to the given medium that people will pick up on the more educated they are and the more open their minds are.


First of all, art is the process, not the product.  Secondly, there are no "universal characteristics" of great art.  That is the crap spewed by the pretentious blowhards who think only their standards apply.  The same ones who probably think your wife is ugly.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

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Re: Van Halen
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2007, 05:03:45 pm »
Of course.  That's my point entirely.  I find her attractive by my standards, not by yours or anyone else's.  That doens't make your standards wrong.


Which is what makes it entirely subjective.  They believe it, you don't.  You're both using your own subjective standards. 


First of all, art is the process, not the product.  Secondly, there are no "universal characteristics" of great art.  That is the crap spewed by the pretentious blowhards who think only their standards apply.  The same ones who probably think your wife is ugly.

We all filter information in our own ways, and that's what makes discussion, communication, and education interesting; however, though unique, we are still filtering the same universally availble information, and that information does carry with it certain universal truths, even if our interpretations or reactions to those truths are different.

HH, I feel this debate leaning perilously close to 'agree to disagree' territory, and so maybe we should leave it at that.  You've made a lot of great points, and have given me a lot to think about.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 05:08:25 pm by Joey Trum »