Clemens in the Mitchell Report

[toddthebod]

So says Mike and Mike quoting ESPN the magazine.  Bwahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaa.  Can the Astros terminate the personal services contract? 

[Curly]

You were first, and I feel bad becuase nobody is replying to your thread.  Outstanding journalistic coverage.

[Andyzipp]

And you had to suffer through Mike and Mike to get your info. 

Bravo.

[Froback]

And you had to suffer through Mike and Mike to get your info. 

Bravo.

Honestly as far as sports talk radio goes, they are not so bad... except when they have guest hosts sitting in, like today was Salisbury. (who is terrible in everything I have seen him do)

[Colt 45]

Olney and crew now weighting in also.

[Colt 45]

Gammons can not speak english.

[pravata]

So, Dale Robertson, you're interviewing Roger Clemens the day before the Mitchell Report is published, what quote do you get?

Clemens' only announcement Wednesday was that, "We've finally got a catcher in the family."
Link

This is regarding Koby Clemens switch to catcher for Class A Salem.

[Limey]

Clemens' only announcement Wednesday was that, "We've finally got a catcher in the family."

...at which point Andy Pettitte's ears pricked up.

[MikeyBoy]

Clemens' only announcement Wednesday was that, "We've finally got a catcher in the family."

I guess this answers which role Andy plays in their relationship.

[pravata]

...at which point Andy Pettitte's ears pricked up.

I made a deliberate decision not to go there.

[Limey]

I made a deliberate decision not to go there.

Pussy.

[T. J.]

It's on the Interwebs now

[gleach]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/12/12/the-mitchell-report-what-to-expect/

More fun with the Mitchell Report.

[pravata]

Pussy.

I was concentrating on the uselessness that is Dale Robertson.  Besides I knew there was someone who would pick that up.

[Limey]

I was concentrating on the uselessness that is Dale Robertson.  Besides I knew there was someone who would pick that up.

When there's a comedy barrel that needs its bottom scraped (NTTAWWT), I'm yer man!

[JGrave]

1560 says Tejada will be named. 

[Curly]

But he was clean when the Astros got him.

[Limey]

1560 says Tejada will be named. 

There will be a ton of "I fucking knew it!" players listed (see Gagne, Eric), but I bet there will be some that will cause major heartache.  It ain't going to be pretty...if they did the job properly.

[pravata]

1560 says Tejada will be named. 

Probably based on the Canseco and Palmeiro stuff. 

[Andyzipp]

There will be a ton of "I fucking knew it!" players listed (see Gagne, Eric), but I bet there will be some that will cause major heartache.  It ain't going to be pretty...if they did the job properly.

Speaking of that.  I really truly believe that Bagwell isn't going to be named, and that he never used.

I also used to really believe in Santa Claus, and that didn't work out well.

This day is going to suck ass if Jeffrey Robert is named.

[Limey]

This day is going to suck ass if Jeffrey Robert is named.

...at which point, Andy Pettitte's ears pricked up.

[MusicMan]

This day is going to suck ass if Jeffrey Robert is named.

Hate you.

[Bench]

Speaking of that.  I really truly believe that Bagwell isn't going to be named, and that he never used.

I also used to really believe in Santa Claus, and that didn't work out well.

This day is going to suck ass if Jeffrey Robert is named.

I'm just hoping against hope that Caminiti isn't on the list.

[MusicMan]

I'm just hoping against hope that Caminiti isn't on the list.

You realize he was an admitted user, right?

[Bench]

You realize he was an admitted user, right?

You realize that was blatant sarcasm, right?

[Andyzipp]

I'm just hoping against hope that Caminiti isn't on the list.

Betcha I could end that suspense for you...

[MusicMan]

You realize that was blatant sarcasm, right?

Yesterday threw my sarc meter all out of whack.  It thought that "hitting won the 2007 WS" was pure sarc.

[remy]

You were first, and I feel bad becuase nobody is replying to your thread.  Outstanding journalistic coverage.

Not that it matters, but how is his 08:49:20 AM earlier than your 08:48:54 AM?

[jaklewein]

Speaking of that.  I really truly believe that Bagwell isn't going to be named, and that he never used.

I also used to really believe in Santa Claus, and that didn't work out well.

This day is going to suck ass if Jeffrey Robert is named.

As I've posted before...I've been holding my breath for a long time on this.  Let's hope he's not...and then let's further hope that this is end of this bullshit (besides Bonds obviously, which I wish we could fast forward past as well).  I've been ready to move on for awhile now.

[jaklewein]

Hey Zipp...couldn't find where you'd lined me out before on this...but didn't you say there'd be no way players could get suspended due to information coming from this report?  Also, the last few years Clemens has acquired more money than God...I'd think that he will at least entertain the idea of using some of it to sue, no?  If so, could he only sue the source (say the Yankee trainer) or also those resposible for putting together and publishing this report?

[Limey]

Hey Zipp...couldn't find where you'd lined me out before on this...but didn't you say there'd be no way players could get suspended due to information coming from this report?  Also, the last few years Clemens has acquired more money than God...I'd think that he will at least entertain the idea of using some of it to sue, no?  If so, could he only sue the source (say the Yankee trainer) or also those resposible for putting together and publishing this report?

Just to add some fuel to fire up the conspiracy theories, Sen. Mitchell is on the board of directors of the Boston Red Sox.

[Bench]

Here's an unsubstantiated list.

[jaklewein]

Just to add some fuel to fire up the conspiracy theories, Sen. Mitchell is on the board of directors of the Boston Red Sox.

Nice...and I've read that minus Jeter and Rivera, that the Yankees are going to get killed by this report.

[Andyzipp]

Hey Zipp...couldn't find where you'd lined me out before on this...but didn't you say there'd be no way players could get suspended due to information coming from this report?  Also, the last few years Clemens has acquired more money than God...I'd think that he will at least entertain the idea of using some of it to sue, no?  If so, could he only sue the source (say the Yankee trainer) or also those resposible for putting together and publishing this report?

That was my supposition, because a report naming names doesn't equal a person being convicted of anything, and all you can prove is possession, not useage.  I doubt MLB is going to do anything but say that they're saddened but hopeful that their steroid policy will prevent this in the future.

[Limey]

Here's an unsubstantiated list.

Crap.  Bagwell's on there and Baio is invoked.  Not good.

[Colt 45]

Here's an unsubstantiated list.

sweet

[Limey]

That was my supposition, because a report naming names doesn't equal a person being convicted of anything, and all you can prove is possession, not useage.  I doubt MLB is going to do anything but say that they're saddened but hopeful that their steroid policy will prevent this in the future.

Otherwise, the Astros 85% full 40-man roster is going to look overpopulated.

[subnuclear]

Here's an unsubstantiated list.

I'm going to come out and say that was made by some jackass who knew nothing.  If I'm wrong we will find out soon.

[Trey]

Speaking of that.  I really truly believe that Bagwell isn't going to be named, and that he never used.

I also used to really believe in Santa Claus, and that didn't work out well.

This day is going to suck ass if Jeffrey Robert is named.

I'm with you.  Of course, I still think Floyd and Lance are clean.

[Bench]

I'm going to come out and say that was made by some jackass who knew nothing.  If I'm wrong we will find out soon.

Why's that? Maybe because Glaus is on there twice? Ozzie and Jose get one entry (perhaps owing to Ozzie's MLB tenure), but the brothers Giambi get two?

I'm with you.

[Andyzipp]

I'm going to come out and say that was made by some jackass who knew nothing.  If I'm wrong we will find out soon.

At first blush, that list is all a) the people who have already been caught or admitted use and b) the people who are suspected based on weight/body mass gain.

[Matt]

They pretty much admitted that the list could be bullshit.

[Fredia]

...at which point Andy Pettitte's ears pricked up.

saw petittes name mentioned too.. you know the dq and his princess share everything

[Curly]

Not that it matters, but how is his 08:49:20 AM earlier than your 08:48:54 AM?

Oh, guess I was looking at time of the second post in my thread...DAMN IT, I WAS FIRST!  Guess I'll live.

[subnuclear]

At first blush, that list is all a) the people who have already been caught or admitted use and b) the people who are suspected based on weight/body mass gain.

True, I believe that this is someone's opinion on who should be on the list.   The real list will have a lot more names you would never predict and a lot of names missing because either they didn't use or didn't get caught.   Plus, Dante Bichette is on there and everyone knows Bionic Fat is not a steroid. 

[pravata]

At first blush, that list is all a) the people who have already been caught or admitted use and b) the people who are suspected based on weight/body mass gain.

Here's how this type of news is handled these days, "These are things that have been known for some time.  There is nothing new here." 

Says Bud, "I haven't seen the report yet, but I'm proud I did it," Selig said. "People can say Bud was just trying to cover his butt or take care of his legacy or whatever. I say [bleep] it. This needed to be done, and now we've done it. I'm just happy it will be out there and we can move on. I'm proud of it." Link

(sources say) the report assigns blame to both the commissioner's office and the players' union.  "MLB's "not going to love it, the union's not going to love it," (source) said.
link

Everyone will be blamed, therefore no one will be held responsible.  Reputations?  Possibly.  But no one is having to give anything back.  Link Nothing to see, move on folks. 

[BizidyDizidy]

Here's how this type of news is handled these days, "These are things that have been known for some time.  There is nothing new here." 

Says Bud, "I haven't seen the report yet, but I'm proud I did it," Selig said. "People can say Bud was just trying to cover his butt or take care of his legacy or whatever. I say [bleep] it. This needed to be done, and now we've done it. I'm just happy it will be out there and we can move on. I'm proud of it." Link

(sources say) the report assigns blame to both the commissioner's office and the players' union.  "MLB's "not going to love it, the union's not going to love it," (source) said.
link

Everyone will be blamed, therefore no one will be held responsible.  Reputations?  Possibly.  But now one is having to give anything back.  Link Nothing to see, move on folks. 

Any guesses on what the [bleep] was?

[MusicMan]

CNBC is supporting the leaked list.

[Lurch]

Any guesses on what the [bleep] was?

Can you even quote a bleep?  Did the writer just do a transcript of last nights SportsCenter?

[Buttermaker]

saw petittes name mentioned too.. you know the dq and his princess share everything

I guess one of the sources misunderstood the question "did you ever see Roger Clemens give Andy Pettitte an injection?"

[ValpoCory]

CNBC is supporting the leaked list.

Why is Busch III pictured?

[Twoniner]

  I REALLY want to see the first interview where Roger is asked "Do you think this prevents you from getting into the HOF?"

[pravata]

Any guesses on what the [bleep] was?

Yes, "Now, hopefully, the US Congress will stop hounding me to do something and we can get back to counting our money."

[BizidyDizidy]

  I REALLY want to see the first interview where Roger is asked "Do you think this prevents you from getting into the HOF?"

I could see a scenario in which this enormous list actually helps guys like Sosa and McGuire make it to the HoF.

[Jacksonian]

CNBC is supporting the leaked list.

CNBC is quoting WNBC for the names.  Where did WNBC get the names?

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I'm still reeling from the idea that Buttoned-up Bud used profanity with the press.  Although I've come across recently leaked video of his full comments.

[Bench]

CNBC is quoting WNBC for the names.  Where did WNBC get the names?

The list has been retracted. Apparantly, MLB disputed its veracity.

[Andyzipp]

CNBC is quoting WNBC for the names.  Where did WNBC get the names?

the Interwebs, so I place the blame with Al Gore.

[pravata]

David Barron lists where you can hear it as it happens http://blogs.chron.com/sportsmedia/2007/12/plenty_of_places_to_watch_hear.html

All anyone cares about is the list of names.  Somebody will have that out as the press conference is in progress I imagine.

[Bench]

David Barron lists where you can hear it as it happens http://blogs.chron.com/sportsmedia/2007/12/plenty_of_places_to_watch_hear.html

All anyone cares about is the list of names.  Somebody will have that out as the press conference is in progress I imagine.

The report itself will be posted on mlb.com just as the presser begins.

[hostros7]

Someone i know from ESPN informed me that this is "the list that's being forwarded around."  No confirmation.  A few old astros and our newest member:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Bary Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozze Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

[Limey]

CNBC is quoting WNBC for the names.  Where did WNBC get the names?

Usual internet circle-jerk, where everyone explodes breaking news onto the 'net, but they're all sourcing each other.

[Bench]

Someone i know from ESPN informed me that this is "the list that's being forwarded around."  No confirmation.  A few old astros and our newest member:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Bary Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozze Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

And the circle jerk continues.

[Jacksonian]

Usual internet circle-jerk, where everyone explodes breaking news onto the 'net, but they're all sourcing each other.

It's better to report anything now than wait and report the right thing.

[Tralfaz]

Juan Gonzalez on it twice.  Double true!!

[Limey]

It's better to report anything now than wait and report the right thing.

And if you include the appropriate weasel-words, and identify your source, there's no need to post a correction or retraction.

[das]

...at which point Andy Pettitte's ears pricked up.

Ears?

[Limey]

Ears?

Maybe my pop-culture reference was too obscure, even for this place.

[The Third Man]

Maybe my pop-culture reference was too obscure, even for this place.

I'm reading that biography of Joe Orton right this very minute. This would be relevant if George Mitchell was investigating cottaging, or angry postwar playwrights, but alas...

[Bench]

Someone i know from ESPN informed me that this is "the list that's being forwarded around."  No confirmation.  A few old astros and our newest member:

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Bary Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozze Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood.

SI has a few more names in this story (which leads with Tejada).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/13/mitchell.news/index.html?eref=T1

Justice and Knoblauch are not on the "leaked"/internet rumor list, so I guess pretty much debunks it.

[chuck]

Maybe my pop-culture reference was too obscure, even for this place.

Joe Orton. Believe it or not, I got it.

That list looks absurdly short.

[ybbodeus]

Someone i know from ESPN informed me that this is "the list that's being forwarded around."  No confirmation.  A few old astros and our newest member:

{names deleted to protect the guilty}

I got that email, too, and it wasn't from my lone buddy at ESPN....it was from a buddy of HIS, and it's allegedly already being disclaimed.

[homer]

ESPN just showed a live shot of some guy actually passing the reports out. Should see something very soon.

[Astroholic]

ESPN just showed a live shot of some guy actually passing the reports out. Should see something very soon.

And the whip comes down!

[homer]

First glance by ESPN shitbag, Clemens was using as early as 98.

Images in appendix are of cleared checks, Lo Duca, Neagle, Segui, others.

[Anit]

First glance by ESPN shitbag, Clemens was using as early as 98.

Images in appendix are of cleared checks, Lo Duca, Neagle, Segui, others.

dont forget tejada!

[ybbodeus]

And the whip comes down!

Excellent....song will stay in my head until the 2nd half kickoff tonight.  

[astrox]

409 pages in the report...

[Lurch]

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

[astrox]

Just did a search for "Bagwell" and it did not show up...

[Phil_in_CS]

Just did a search for "Bagwell" and it did not show up...

first thing I did too. He's not in this.

[MusicMan]

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

Giving me a 404 error.  If someone has downloaded it, PM me and I'll give you an e-mail adresss.

[Lurch]

Villone

[HurricaneDavid]

Astros hits:

Caminiti
Clemens
Pettitte
Zaun
Villone
Donnels
Randolph

Along with various Doctors.

[Trey]

Astros hits:

Caminiti
Clemens
Pettitte
Zaun
Villone
Donnels
Randolph

Along with various Doctors.

No Tejada?  Or are those just guys who used while with the Astros?

[MusicMan]

Giving me a 404 error.  If someone has downloaded it, PM me and I'll give you an e-mail adresss.

Never mind, I got it.

[astrox]

No Tejada?  Or are those just guys who used while with the Astros?

Tejada is there.

[homer]

Mitchell speaking...

complete report will be posted on mlb.com

thanks to several people

Basic Agreement prohibits confidential information, Selig office reviewed, no material changes made

Club officials routinely consider suspected drug use when evaluating players

Steroids down, HGH up

was not isolated to BALCO, each of 30 clubs have had players using

5-7% in 2003 admitted to use by anonymous survey, most likely understated

a negative test does not mean not using

3%-6% of high school players are using

still talking...

[HurricaneDavid]

No Tejada?  Or are those just guys who used while with the Astros?

Astros hits - I just searched "Astros."

[Astroholic]

Tejada is there.

But it only talks about B-12 injections.

Never mind, talks about him in detail on page 201

[Anit]

i just flipped to the appendix here and theres 2 cleared checks from tejada..each for $3,100 written on the same day...march of 2003

ETA: checks are made out to adam piatt

[homer]

Radomski was key, but not only person. Other players and stength and conditioning coaches.

'Dozens' of players named, and called to be interviewed.

Corraburation with Radomski - 11 players admitted, checks and money orders, mailing, statements by others, names and addresses in address book, phone records

McNamee personally witnessed 3 players inject.

Oil based steroids left in favor of water based.

[ybbodeus]

A search on Bonds gives you 103 mentions; guess this is ONE time that Barry doesn't want to be first.  Wonder if any other player tops that?

[toddthebod]

But it only talks about B-12 injections.

Never mind, talks about him in detail on page 201

Yes.  The details about Tejada are not good.  I was hoping that it would be limited to B12 injections.

[ybbodeus]

Do you suppose this thing will get more hits than "Ken Staah's" report?

[homer]

Calls for changing MLB testing. Some can be changed unilaterally by comissioner, but some need MLBPA.

1. Wants to include non-testing evidence. Create a department of investigation to respond to claims.

2. Educational programs.

3. Drug testing - can't work alone but important piece. Wants to incorporate 'state of the art' program. requires MLBPA agreement.
-3rd party
-transparent to public
-year round unannounced testing
-be allowed to evolve, properly funded

[MusicMan]

"I urge the Commissioner to forgo punishment for these players..."

[Limey]

Do you suppose this thing will get more hits than "Ken Staah's" report?

Not unless some of the injections involve beef and or tobacco.

[matadorph]

Ouch. The report is not kind to DQ.

[MusicMan]

Ouch. The report is not kind to DQ.

Oh well.

I wonder if Mitchell is aware of how much his comments about "looking forward" echo "I'm not here to talk about the past."

[Lurch]

Kevin Fucking Brown.

[ybbodeus]

Ouch. The report is not kind to DQ.

Yeah, makes ya' wonder if next year's "dropped call" commercial might be of a sullen, unshaven Roger peering over a ledge with Senator Mitchell screaming into the rescue phone that the report has been repealed; that it was all a big mistake....right after the call drops.

[homer]

Principal purpose of investigation was to bring the issue to a close. Look forward.

Most of use in report is old, 2-9 years. Attributes this to increased testing, etc.

Most people listed are no longer playing.

There were other suppliers, past and present, that he didn't name because there was no evidence. 'Rejuvenation centers' were named by other players.

[londoncalling]

Considering most of this is based upon heresay, I can see a scenario where a named player sues MLB

[ybbodeus]

The Texas Hammer is already setting up additional 800 lines.

[homer]

Dick on ESPN. Says Roger and Andy humiliated. When asked how they will respond, his answer "I'll be very interested to see." WTF?

I figured they would ask about Tejada, but nothing...

[Jacksonian]

Dick on ESPN. Says Roger and Andy humiliated. When asked how they will respond, his answer "I'll be very interested to see." WTF?

I figured they would ask about Tejada, but nothing...

When did Tejada play for the Yankees?

[Limey]

Dick on ESPN. Says Roger and Andy humiliated. When asked how they will respond, his answer "I'll be very interested to see." WTF?

I figured they would ask about Tejada, but nothing...

not a Yankee and no longer in the AL = irrelevant

[homer]

When did Tejada play for the Yankees?

Yeah, but why would they get Dick to discuss the Yankees and not some shitbag from NY?

[Jacksonian]

Yeah, but why would they get Dick to discuss the Yankees and not some shitbag from NY?

Roger, Andy, and Dick all sleep together.

In the same town I mean.

[Lurch]

Wow

According to the notes of an internal discussion among Los Angeles Dodgers
officials in October 2003 that were referred to above, it was reportedly said of Lo Duca during
the meetings:
Steroids aren’t being used anymore on him. Big part of this.
Might have some value to trade . . . Florida might have interest.
. . . Got off the steroids . . . Took away a lot of hard line drives.
. . . Can get comparable value back would consider trading. . . . If
you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he
can have a good year. That’s his makeup. Comes to play. Last
year of contract, playing for 05

[astrox]

Yeah, the notes from the club officials' meetings were very interesting.  Seeing how they dealt with the players and their suspected use and any potential trade ramifications.

[Limey]

Yeah, the notes from the club officials' meetings were very interesting.  Seeing how they dealt with the players and their suspected use and any potential trade ramifications.

Like urgently having to trade a user who might be on the decline now that he's not juicing?

[kevwun]

There's an email exchange between Theo Epstein and a Red Sox employee about Eric Gagne that is also very good.

[Limey]

There's an email exchange between Theo Epstein and a Red Sox employee about Eric Gagne that is also very good.

Gagne was always a classic.  He was a nerdish looking beanpole who was on the bubble; then he showed up one spring looking like Superman's retarded half-brother.

[Bench]

Gagne was always a classic.  He was a nerdish looking beanpole who was on the bubble; then he showed up one spring looking like Superman's retarded half-brother.

I was going to FIFY it to replace "retarded" with "French-Canadian", but realized that would merely be redundant.

[homer]

Selig says:

No more 24 notice for testing.

The recommendations that he can do unilaterally, will be done immediately.

Will deal with active players identified. Club personnel as well. Discipline on case by case basis.

Will continue to find new ways to detect.

[kevwun]

I hope DQ's clenching upon hearing Selig's statement didn't hurt AP.  Never mind, I don't.

[Froback]

Selig says:

No more 24 notice for testing.

The recommendations that he can do unilaterally, will be done immediately.

Will deal with active players identified. Club personnel as well. Discipline on case by case basis.

Will continue to find new ways to detect.

I know I am being naive about this but, for that last one, my response is "You mean you needed this f-ing report to tell you that?!?!"

[MusicMan]

So who plays SS for the first 15 games?

[Froback]

So who plays SS for the first 15 games?

Burke?

*ducks for cover*

[Limey]

Burke?

*ducks for cover*

Duck?  You'd better stop, drop and roll.

[homer]

I know I am being naive about this but, for that last one, my response is "You mean you needed this f-ing report to tell you that?!?!"

He went on to talk about finding an HGH urine test, through funding (with NFL) and some type of HGH summit.

[Limey]

So who plays SS for the first 15 games?

Isn't it 50?

[Froback]

He went on to talk about finding an HGH urine test, through funding (with NFL) and some type of HGH summit.

You would figure that if two billion-dollar industries like the NFL and MLB actually pooled their resources to discover something in the area of medicine, they could find a cure for cancer if they wanted to.  The real question is how hard are they going to look/push for this kind of test?  I for one will be cynical about this much like I am about oil companies who claim to invest money in looking for alternative "clean" energy production methods.

By now we SHOULD all be zooming in cars like the Jetson's!

[Lurch]

Isn't it 50?

If so, the Everett situation is even more infuriating (as if it wasnt enough already).  Hopefully Drayton will man up quick and tell us what the hell his team is doing.

[Matt]

Kevin Fucking Brown.

Might explain the whole toilet incident.

[Limey]

Might explain the whole toilet incident.

...and being able to come back and be dominant on 3 days rest in a playoff series.

[MusicMan]

Isn't it 50?

Gibbons and Guillen got 15.  Cameron got 25.

[Jacksonian]

Gibbons and Guillen got 15.  Cameron got 25.

Right. This ain't the minor leagues.

[kevwun]

I think Brown's first documented use in the report was in 2000 or 2001.  That's not saying he wasn't on before, just that we don't have proof.

[Jacksonian]

My man Hal Morris is in there.  Though he denied using, he didn't deny buying or supplying.  Disappointing.

[Matt]

...and being able to come back and be dominant on 3 days rest in a playoff series.

Yeah really. How about a do-over on that series?

[Froback]

Yeah really. How about a do-over on that series?

Somehow I don't think Bagwell's shoulder is up to it.  (Not to mention Randy Johnson's noodle arm)

[homer]

Selig says he will punish. Then someone asks what he foresees as the effect on fans not coming to games because of the players named. Then he runs and hides behind the 'looking forward' and not back, and he won't worry because the fans should look forward too. Then the next answer is about the same, that everyone should look forward.

[Jacksonian]

Selig says he will punish. Then someone asks what he foresees as the effect on fans not coming to games because of the players named. Then he runs and hides behind the 'looking forward' and not back, and he won't worry because the fans should look forward too. Then the next answer is about the same, that everyone should look forward.

Ok then.  I'm looking forward to seeing who he punishes and how much.

[Lurch]

My man Hal Morris is in there.  Though he denied using, he didn't deny buying or supplying.  Disappointing.

Generally speaking, any other time, being a dealer is considered far more offensive than actually using.  Interesting that would be the defense of choice in this case.

[homer]

Ok then.  I'm looking forward to seeing who he punishes and how much.

I'm looking forward to the union presser at 5p CST.

[kevwun]

Donald Fehr is going to look like a complete dick unless he agrees to cooperate fully in cleaning up the sport.  I hope he comes out on the defensive.

[MusicMan]

Fehr has never let looking like a dick bother him in the past.

[Froback]

I'm looking forward to the union presser at 5p CST.

You WANT to see that degree of spin-doctoring?  crap I am already dreading the next 11 months of that crap from the a-holes running for President!

[kevwun]

He's never been in a situation quite like this.

[Jacksonian]

Fehr has never let looking like a dick bother him in the past.

I fully expect him to be defensive.  I expect him to come out swinging at the report as an out of context, under-sourced, illegitimate report that should hold no bearing on the players mentioned.  IOW, he'll call it crap.  He'll talk about it being for the commish and not done by a legal entity so it has to be tainted and without merit.  He will say anything to de-legitimize the report short of calling Mitchell a criminal.

ETA: He'll also pay lip service to cleaning up the sport.

[Noe]

Actually, I think the union has a strong leg to stand on right now.  Well over half of the steriod indicted players are no longer in the league.  This in a league that was inept to fully develop a comprehensive enough plan of action to deal with the situation to begin with and had organizations within the league who turned a blind eye to the player's actions in the name of winning.

Unless the MLB has a strict policy in place to retroactively punish players, they won't do anything to anybody.  Guillen, Cameron and Gibbons were caught under the now agreed upon with the MLBPA form of recourse.  This report seems to be an indictment for everyone in the league to not let what has been the culture in the past ever happen again.  I'm not getting this sense that this is to retroactively pursue those who used PEDs to gain an edge over their competition.

[MusicMan]

I fully expect him to be defensive.  I expect him to come out swinging at the report as an out of context, under-sourced, illegitimate report that should hold no bearing on the players mentioned.  IOW, he'll call it crap.  He'll talk about it being for the commish and not done by a legal entity so it has to be tainted and without merit.  He will say anything to de-legitimize the report short of calling Mitchell a criminal.

ETA: He'll also pay lip service to cleaning up the sport.

Summary:
* current program is effective
* decision to run investigation was unilateral, and left union no choice but to "represent their members" as any union would
* no opportunity to review report in advance
* consider "nature of the evidence, reliability of the source, and absence of safeguards"
* any strong CBA involves a mutual respect for the agreement

Not nearly contentious as I expected

[homer]

Fehr says:

We have a program (2005) and the report doesn't indicate its failing.

We told Bud we didn't want the report. We advised everyone not to cooperate, and decision was left to each person.

Couldn't read the report before it was released. Limited comments.

Reputations are affected. Should consider nature of evidence, source. No disciplinary action as suggested by Mitchell is welcome, if discipline then full due process under the agreement.

On recommendations - we have shown willingness to end use as shown with previous testing and there might be an oppurtunity to amend current mid term. He hasn't read the report, so he can't say for sure.

[Noe]

We have a program (2005) and the report doesn't indicate its failing.

He's right.

Reputations are affected. Should consider nature of evidence, source. No disciplinary action as suggested by Mitchell is welcome, if discipline then full due process under the agreement.

This, unfortunately, is the bigger truth of what he's said.  1) The players have to deal with the court of public opinion and nothing more at this point.  It's sad that they took that recourse of cheating to get ahead in an environment and culture that was ripe with many instances of cheating.  Everything from stealing signs to popping greenies to the now ultimate sin of taking steriods to gain an edge.  2)  If Selig thinks he has a right to retroactively punish players, then he better point to a system that is already in place that allows him to do that.  If not, then he's in for a huge court battle and at that point, it's fair game to point out the sins of many around baseball and not just the players.

Does Buddy boy seriously think it's a good idea to do that?  He has a policy now in place, he has an awareness now in place, he has the public now on his side that he and the league are paying attention to the sin.  Does he really think it's a good idea to take it too far and lose his gains and momentum?

[Don]

Here comes Team Racket...

"Clemens enlists attorney to fight steroid allegations"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5376995.html

After being implicated of steroids use in the report former Senator George Mitchell released this afternoon, Roger Clemens has enlisted the services of powerful Houston attorney Rusty Hardin to defend him from the accusations.

"Roger Clemens vehemently denies allegations in the Mitchell report that he used performance-enhancing steroids, and is outraged that his name is included in the report based on the uncorroborated allegations of a troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution. Roger has been repeatedly tested for these substances and he has never tested positive. There has never been one shred of tangible evidence that he ever used these substances and yet he is being slandered today,” Hardin said in a release sent to the media.

[Froback]

Does Buddy boy seriously think it's a good idea to do that?  He has a policy now in place, he has an awareness now in place, he has the public now on his side that he and the league are paying attention to the sin.  Does he really think it's a good idea to take it too far and lose his gains and momentum?

While he may look like it at times, Bud isn't stupid.  But I am betting he uses this as a way to get stronger policies in place from the MLBPA without having to give up as much as he would have prior to the report being release.

In the end, this is going to be mostly about nothing... with the possible exception as a small PR boon to the owners (and Bud) for the appearance that they are for more to be done, because that is what the report suggests.

[homer]

He cried the whole time about not being included in the report from the beginning and not getting the report sooner. He said he doesn't want to belabor the point, but he did.

[Froback]

Here comes Team Racket...

"Clemens enlists attorney to fight steroid allegations"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5376995.html

Even if what he says is true, my general response is "You wanted to be famous, this kind of stuff comes with the good stuff too. Enjoy!"

[Noe]

While he may look like it at times, Bud isn't stupid.  But I am betting he uses this as a way to get stronger policies in place from the MLBPA without having to give up as much as he would have prior to the report being release.

In the end, this is going to be mostly about nothing... with the possible exception as a small PR boon to the owners (and Bud) for the appearance that they are for more to be done, because that is what the report suggests.

Dead. Spot. On.

[Noe]

Here comes Team Racket...

"Clemens enlists attorney to fight steroid allegations"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5376995.html

Looks like "no comment" is not part of Clemen's makeup.  Damn, he's getting some bad advice to pursue this.

[MusicMan]

Isn't it ironic?

Living a Pure Life: by Andy Pettitte

[kevwun]

There has never been one shred of tangible evidence that he ever used these substances and yet he is being slandered today,” Hardin said in a release sent to the media.

Except that his personal trainer told the feds he did so frequently.  The same personal trainer who happens to be under federal investigation for selling steroids and followed Clemens from Toronto to New York and then to Houston.  Other than that, they don't have shit.

[Noe]

Except that his personal trainer told the feds he did so frequently.

You think a lawyer like Hardin is going to allow a "he said/she said" testimony go unchallenged?  Unless the MLB has more than this, Rusty boy is going to have a field day.

The same personal trainer who happens to be under federal investigation for selling steroids and followed Clemens from Toronto to New York and then to Houston.  Other than, that they don't have shit.

They better come up with more.

[kevwun]

I'm sure Mr. McNamee will be happy to oblige.  Roger must have not taken a page from Barry and paid him to keep his mouth shut.

[Noe]

Isn't it ironic?

Living a Pure Life: by Andy Pettitte

The more Andy lacks the walk to back up the talk, the more sorry I feel for him.  Yeah, I feel sorry for a multi-millionaire spoiled brat baseball player.  Go figure.

[Noe]

I'm sure Mr. McNamee will be happy to oblige.  Roger must have not taken a page from Barry and paid him to keep his mouth shut.

Obviously, you don't think Rusty Hardin knows how to *discredit* a witness, do you?  That's a bit naive.

[kevwun]

The federal investigation is still on going.  They're not releasing everything they know about McNamee and Clemens in the Mitchell report. 

[Noe]

The federal investigation is still on going.  They're not releasing everything they know about McNamee and Clemens in the Mitchell report. 

Hardin is hired to descredit the Mitchell Report, not to defend him against Federal prosecution.  Notice the word "slander"?  It is about damage and civil lawsuits they're talking about.  If the Feds want to step in and prove a case, they can and should.  Else, Hardin is going to point his lawyer skills right at the civil lawsuit that will be filed soon.

[MusicMan]

Hardin is hired to descredit the Mitchell Report, not to defend him against Federal prosecution.  Notice the word "slander"?  It is about damage and civil lawsuits they're talking about.  If the Feds want to step in and prove a case, they can and should.  Else, Hardin is going to point his lawyer skills right at the civil lawsuit that will be filed soon.

Question for the lawyers - in a slander case, isn't the burden on the complainant to prove that the statement was untrue?

[headhunter]

The more Andy lacks the walk to back up the talk, the more sorry I feel for him.  Yeah, I feel sorry for a multi-millionaire spoiled brat baseball player.  Go figure.

devil made that trainer lie, can't you recognize the devil and his works. Actually, I think those works are Roger's. shouldn't be sharing needles. bad, bad reversecarpetteabaggingwithhisdruggieboyfriendyetanotherbaptisthypocriticaltraitorgofuckyerself andy.

[Noe]

Question for the lawyers - in a slander case, isn't the burden on the complainant to prove that the statement was untrue?

Civil cases have a lower threshold of proof than felony cases.  I'm no lawyer, but usually all you have to prove in a civil case is that the other person had no credible evidence beyond a he said/she said testimony.  If there exist nothing more than that, the burden of proof isn't that you have to prove them wrong, it is that they cannot prove that they can corroborate that they are right.   Every celebrity can sue the National Enquirer tomorrow and win in a civil lawsuit.  But most do not because the Enquirer welcomes the free pub and will gladly pay the damages as if they're paying for advertising for their newspaper.  I don't know if the MLB or McNamee or anybody else Hardin will name as defendents will have the same attitude as the National Enquirer.

I just hope the trainer does not produce hidden camera pictures he took of himself injecting Clemens in the arse to corroborate his testimony.  Not something I would look forward to seeing.

[headhunter]

Question for the lawyers - in a slander case, isn't the burden on the complainant to prove that the statement was untrue?

http://injury.findlaw.com/defamation-libel-slander/

Truth is a defense.

[MusicMan]

http://injury.findlaw.com/defamation-libel-slander/

Truth is a defense.

I think this is what I was getting at:

Under the rules set forth in Sullivan , a public official (note: this is later expanded to include "public figures such as athletes - MM) cannot recover from a person who publishes a communication about a public official's conduct or fitness unless the defendant knew that the statement was false or acted in reckless disregard of the statement's truth or falsity. This standard is referred to as "actual malice," although malice in this sense does not mean ill-will. Instead, the actual malice standard refers to the defendant's knowledge of the truth or falsity of the statement.

[Noe]

I think this is what I was getting at:

Under the rules set forth in Sullivan , a public official (note: this is later expanded to include "public figures such as athletes - MM) cannot recover from a person who publishes a communication about a public official's conduct or fitness unless the defendant knew that the statement was false or acted in reckless disregard of the statement's truth or falsity. This standard is referred to as "actual malice," although malice in this sense does not mean ill-will. Instead, the actual malice standard refers to the defendant's knowledge of the truth or falsity of the statement.

So it boils down to who Hardin will sue: McNamee, the MLB and Mitchell himself?  Probably all three, but not all three will he be successful at gaining some recompense.  That is why Clemens would've been better off just letting it go.

[kevwun]

I was wondering who Clemens would sue.  I would think MLB is the obvious choice.  Does Mitchell have any kind of protection?  One would think he wouldn't have agreed to do the investigation and open himself to lawsuits without some kind of immunity or at least an agreement from MLB to foot his legal bills.

[Jacksonian]

I was wondering who Clemens would sue.  I would think MLB is the obvious choice.  Does Mitchell have any kind of protection?  One would think he wouldn't have agreed to do the investigation and open himself to lawsuits without some kind of immunity or at least an agreement from MLB to foot his legal bills.

Mitchell's still one of the most influencial men in America, and he's no idiot.  He didn't do all this without knowing full well his ass is covered.  DQ lawyered up to court public opinion not win a lawsuit.

[Lurch]

Was an assersion of fact made about DQ using?  Otherwise, it's simply a statement of what evidence has been recorded.  Can't legally fault Mitchell or MLB for that, I wouldnt think.

[Arky Vaughan]

Civil cases have a lower threshold of proof than felony cases.  I'm no lawyer, but usually all you have to prove in a civil case is that the other person had no credible evidence beyond a he said/she said testimony.  If there exist nothing more than that, the burden of proof isn't that you have to prove them wrong, it is that they cannot prove that they can corroborate that they are right.   Every celebrity can sue the National Enquirer tomorrow and win in a civil lawsuit.  But most do not because the Enquirer welcomes the free pub and will gladly pay the damages as if they're paying for advertising for their newspaper.  I don't know if the MLB or McNamee or anybody else Hardin will name as defendents will have the same attitude as the National Enquirer.

I just hope the trainer does not produce hidden camera pictures he took of himself injecting Clemens in the arse to corroborate his testimony.  Not something I would look forward to seeing.

[pedantic response]Your discussion is going more toward burden of proof, Noe, and I think MM was asking about whether falsehood is one of the elements Clemens must prove, regardless of what the burden of proof is.

To prevail in a defamation suit, the plaintiff needs to show (1) that the statement was published to third parties (i.e., was made to someone other than the plaintiff), (2) that the statement was false, (3) that the statement was damaging to the plaintiff's reputation and (4) that, in the case of a public figure, the defendant acted with actual malice (i.e., with knowledge that the statement was false or with reckless disregard for whether the statement was true or false).

The burden of proof in a civil proceeding is preponderance of the evidence (not beyond a reasonable doubt, as is the case in a criminal proceeding). This may be thought of as meaning that if the evidence tips 51% your way and 49% the other way, you have prevailed, although in practice there are more refined standards that may determine whether the preponderance of the evidence has been achieved.

This is why truth is considered a defense to defamation claims. If a defendant can prove truth by a preponderance of the evidence, the plaintiff loses because he fails to establish one of the required elements. The flip side of this is, obviously, that the plaintiff must prove falsehood by a preponderance of the evidence.[/pedantic response]

[Albino Rhino]

If a defendant can prove truth by a preponderance of the evidence, the plaintiff loses because he fails to establish one of the required elements.

Just a note, I believe that in the case of a public figure/matter of public concern, DQ would have to disprove the falsity of the statement; that is, McNamee doesn't have to prove its truth.  Not only that, DQ would have to prove that McNamee acted with malice. 

To sue MLB or Mitchell, DQ would have to prove that McNamee was wrong, and to prove that Mictchell/MLB acted with actual malice in citing McNamee. 

I think it's safe to say this won't go to court.  But think of the fun of seeing Clemens on the stand!

[S.P. Rodriguez]

The more Andy lacks the walk to back up the talk, the more sorry I feel for him.  Yeah, I feel sorry for a multi-millionaire spoiled brat baseball player.  Go figure.

Don't knock yourself... it's called compassion, human decency, what have you.  Imagine that guy having to face his family after that report.  Screw the court of public opinion.  If he's been telling his wife and kids he's clean and they see this... potentially life shattering.  I have nothing but pity for him right now...

[baron]

Just a note, I believe that in the case of a public figure/matter of public concern, DQ would have to disprove the falsity of the statement; that is, McNamee doesn't have to prove its truth.  Not only that, DQ would have to prove that McNamee acted with malice. 

To sue MLB or Mitchell, DQ would have to prove that McNamee was wrong, and to prove that Mictchell/MLB acted with actual malice in citing McNamee. 

I think it's safe to say this won't go to court.  But think of the fun of seeing Clemens on the stand!

That's the bottom line.
A successful lawsuit against any of those folks - including snitch McNamee - would be pretty amazing and I seriously doubt that's why he hired Rusty Hardin, as someone else already said. 

[jasonact]

I was wondering who Clemens would sue.  I would think MLB is the obvious choice.  Does Mitchell have any kind of protection?  One would think he wouldn't have agreed to do the investigation and open himself to lawsuits without some kind of immunity or at least an agreement from MLB to foot his legal bills.

I would be shocked if any slander suit came out of this because the plaintiff has to prove that the defendant knowingly disseminated false information, and that's tough. In any case, I would think McNamee would be the only one with even a chance of a slander accusation because he's the one who made the claims. Mitchell simply reported the information he was given, and MLB gave him the charge for that investigation.

[baron]

I would be shocked if any slander suit came out of this because the plaintiff has to prove that the defendant knowingly disseminated false information, and that's tough. In any case, I would think McNamee would be the only one with even a chance of a slander accusation because he's the one who made the claims. Mitchell simply reported the information he was given, and MLB gave him the charge for that investigation.

And McNamee is on the hook for criminal charges if he lied. Apparently, he did all this talking and cooperating under the supervision of his own attorney and the nice men from the federal government.
Which isn't to say that he's telling the truth, but rather that this has all been vetted to some degree.

[Amorican_Idol]

Rocket is screwed. Big TIME.

like others said, the Truth is an absoute defense. No matter how damaging.

Rocket and counsel would have to prove Mitchell and MLB et al.. knew it was false and printed it anyway to damage him specifically (malice). As a public figure his burden is almost impossible to overcome. Courts say guys like Clemens have acesss to the media and can answer the allegations. By the way, Libel is printed and Slander is spoken (saying something damaging on the radio).

So what now?, he's going to sue federal investigators? The IRS, FBI and the U.S. Attorney? Rocket has alot of jack, but not near enough to beat that rap. Also, Mitchell had MLB sign papers that he can't be sued and any suit is MLB's problem.

Sorry Rocket, you are ruined!

This is a Federal Case.

[Amorican_Idol]

To add, I remember all the guys Jose Canseco named said they would sue. None even tried.

Bonds said he'd sue Game of Shadows authors. He Didn't

Can't sue when they're telling the truth.

I think Rocket just went into the McGwire camp.

[The Spleen]

But think of the fun of seeing Clemens on the stand!

"Son, we live in a world that has ballparks, and those ballparks have to be guarded by men with needles. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Mitchell? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for your records, and you curse the players. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the death of those records, while tragic, probably saved baseball. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves baseball. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that mound, you need me on that mound. We use words like honor, fame, glory. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent becoming superstars. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very entertainment that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a syringe and start a cycle. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to..."

[BatGirl]

i want the truth!!!

[BlownRanger]

Here's the current frontrunner for The Most Ridiculous Analysis of the Mitchell Report.  It's from Tim Kurkjian during ESPN's knee-jerk defense of Clemens:

"We know that if these allegations were all true, Clemens would not be denying them so vehemently".

Whether the allegations are true or not, that is a monumentally stupid statement.

[MusicMan]

Dear Timmy:

Perhaps your voice can stop cracking long enough to remember...

"I have never done steroids.  PERIOD."

[Ty in Tampa]

"We know that if these allegations were all true, Clemens would not be denying them so vehemently".

Other things we know:

If there is no Santa Claus, children would not have presents just "show up" on Christmas morning.

If OJ did it, then a jury would not have acquitted him of the charges.

If Iraq didn't have WMDs, we wouldn't be over there.

[Taras Bulba]

"Son, we live in a world that has ballparks, and those ballparks have to be guarded by men with needles. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Mitchell? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for your records, and you curse the players. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the death of those records, while tragic, probably saved baseball. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves baseball. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that mound, you need me on that mound. We use words like honor, fame, glory. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent becoming superstars. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very entertainment that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a syringe and start a cycle. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to..."

I like knowing the Spleen is out there on that wall.

[VirtualBob]

If I may raise a concern, here, I think we should be a little careful with all of our cheering and jeering.  DQ is self-evidently an egotistical jerk, but he is still entitled to some sort of due process.  The tactics below, especially while they remain unconfirmed by a reliable second witness, seem to smack of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.  It seems that the use was so widespread that there should be plenty of witnesses around, which makes it all the more important to seek them out before condeming anyone.

And please note:  I really do mean a reliable second witness, not a second reliable witness ... However strong our suspicions may be, I do not think we yet have our first reliable witness.

Hardin said. "However, I am extremely upset that Roger's name was in this report based on the allegations of a troubled and unreliable witness who only came up with names after being threatened with possible prison time."

...

"I have great respect for Senator Mitchell. I think an overall look at this problem in baseball was an excellent idea. But I respectfully suggest it is very unfair to include Roger's name in this report. He is left with no meaningful way to combat what he strongly contends are totally false allegations. He has not been charged with anything, he will not be charged with anything and yet he is being tried in the court of public opinion with no recourse. That is totally wrong."

[Froback]

If I may raise a concern, here, I think we should be a little careful with all of our cheering and jeering.  DQ is self-evidently an egotistical jerk, but he is still entitled to some sort of due process.  The tactics below, especially while they remain unconfirmed by a reliable second witness, seem to smack of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.  It seems that the use was so widespread that there should be plenty of witnesses around, which makes it all the more important to seek them out before condeming anyone.

And please note:  I really do mean a reliable second witness, not a second reliable witness ... However strong our suspicions may be, I do not think we yet have our first reliable witness.

I don't think it goes even close to Nazi Germany with this.  Nobody is filing charges against him.  He isn't being treated like Michael Vick.  And celebrities ALWAYS have crap said about them, and if I were guessing most are either not true or a gross exaggeration of the truth.  There is a billion dollar industry built on that type of stuff, and you can see it in every supermarket check-out lane as proof.

As I stated before, regardless of the truth, this type of stuff comes with fame, so if you want to be famous for all the good stuff it brings you, you should not be so naive to believe that you can avoid the bad stuff that comes with it too!

[pravata]

If I may raise a concern, here, I think we should be a little careful with all of our cheering and jeering.  DQ is self-evidently an egotistical jerk, but he is still entitled to some sort of due process.  The tactics below, especially while they remain unconfirmed by a reliable second witness, seem to smack of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.  It seems that the use was so widespread that there should be plenty of witnesses around, which makes it all the more important to seek them out before condeming anyone.

And please note:  I really do mean a reliable second witness, not a second reliable witness ... However strong our suspicions may be, I do not think we yet have our first reliable witness.

Are you suggesting that this should have been a criminal investigation?   George Mitchell didn't take this on to lead people up a dark alley so that McNamee and Radomski could more easily stick a stilleto in their backs because of some perceived slights.  This is not a vendetta.  Baseball is a big business, making record profits.  This industry report, more like an investigation of a special committee in a corporation,  is intended to mollify Congress.  If the MLBPA and individual players think the report is unfair, they should have cooperated more when it was being developed.

(ETA) Tread lightly with the Nazi and Stalin stuff.  Nobody is dead, only bruised egos here.

[BlownRanger]

If the MLBPA and individual players think the report is unfair, they should have cooperated more when it was being developed.

BINGO!

[VirtualBob]

Are you suggesting that this should have been a criminal investigation?   George Mitchell didn't take this on to lead people up a dark alley so that McNamee and Radomski could more easily stick a stilleto in their backs because of some perceived slights.  This is not a vendetta.  Baseball is a big business, making record profits.  This industry report, more like an investigation of a special committee in a corporation,  is intended to mollify Congress.  If the MLBPA and individual players think the report is unfair, they should have cooperated more when it was being developed.

No ... I am suggesting, though, that Clemens and his lawyer have a point when they complain about the way the "testimony" of a single shady character attempting to avoid jail time has been used to generate such a stir in fandom.  

I'm not even suggesting that I will be terribly surprised if real witnesses do eventually turn up.  I just think that there is quite a lot of difference in the level of real evidence associated with the various names in the report.  In some cases, the evidence does come from multiple reliable sources, and there does not seem to be any impropriety in including it.  In others (case in point), the evidence is pretty threadbare and is given an inordinate amount of play both in the report itself and in the press.   The name Jason Grimsley just does not grab everyone's attention as quickly, though.

[VirtualBob]

Two slight addenda ...

If the MLBPA and individual players think the report is unfair, they should have cooperated more when it was being developed.

Absolutely!!!!!!  I think Fehr's statements are reprehensible and he clearly wants to fight everything on every possible real or imagined technicality.  I think the report was needed and further investigation as well.  The fact that the MLBPA sees this as a bargaining chip is disgusting.  Let's get at the facts, dealing with the guilty which will also by implication clear up some of the mess around those for whim we cannot find any real evidence.  Limiting "evidence" to positive drug tests, however, is just as bad as allowing "evidence" to come from a single tainted "witness".

(ETA) Tread lightly with the Nazi and Stalin stuff.  Nobody is dead, only bruised egos here.

I'm talking about tactics, not degree of severity.  The tactics are always wrong, even when they seldom reach the excesses of my two examples.  I would rather hold a firm line on principle than get into a relativistic "not as bad as XXX" game.

[pravata]

No ... I am suggesting, though, that Clemens and his lawyer have a point when they complain about the way the "testimony" of a single shady character attempting to avoid jail time has been used to generate such a stir in fandom.  

I'm not even suggesting that I will be terribly surprised if real witnesses do eventually turn up.  I just think that there is quite a lot of difference in the level of real evidence associated with the various names in the report.  In some cases, the evidence does come from multiple reliable sources, and there does not seem to be any impropriety in including it.  In others (case in point), the evidence is pretty threadbare and is given an inordinate amount of play both in the report itself and in the press.   The name Jason Grimsley just does not grab everyone's attention as quickly, though.

I haven't read the whole thing.  But I think that's one of the factors that leads me to believe the thing was done with some care.  How could a report that lists Clemens and Greg Zaun have an agenda?  Possibly there is a Red Sox conspiracy, possibly George Mitchell was duped into collaborating with the personal grudges of the Piatts, Radomskis and McNamees.  Now Clemens has his reputation to consider, how else is he going to spend his time pontificating to minor leaguers about how they should spend their time?  Naturally he gets a lawyer, naturally the lawyer raises legal arguments about a report that is not a legal document.  It's SAM.  The report is far better than the speculations of the head measurers.   How fast did that "leaked" list spread and how willing were people to believe that?  People are starting to snark about how naive it is to believe that those names shouldn't be implicated as well.  In spite of there being no proof whatsoever.

[pravata]

I'm talking about tactics, not degree of severity.  The tactics are always wrong, even when they seldom reach the excesses of my two examples.  I would rather hold a firm line on principle than get into a relativistic "not as bad as XXX" game.

The labels cloud your argument.

[VirtualBob]

I haven't read the whole thing.  But I think that's one of the factors that leads me to believe the thing was done with some care.  How could a report that lists Clemens and Greg Zaun have an agenda?  Possibly there is a Red Sox conspiracy, possibly George Mitchell was duped into collaborating with the personal grudges of the Piatts, Radomskis and McNamees.  Now Clemens has his reputation to consider, how else is he going to spend his time pontificating to minor leaguers about how they should spend their time?  Naturally he gets a lawyer, naturally the lawyer raises legal arguments about a report that is not a legal document.  It's SAM.  The report is far better than the speculations of the head measurers.   How fast did that "leaked" list spread and how willing were people to believe that?  People are starting to snark about how naive it is to believe that those names shouldn't be implicated as well.  In spite of there being no proof whatsoever.

Good points all.  I just think we need to push hard for the kinds of real investigations that the report recommends ... using reasonable rules of evidence [neither single-source "hearsay" nor stonewalling based on the MLBPA work agreement] regardless of whether it is a "criminal" or "legal" or "whathaveyou" effort.  Then begin to consider what that means for the guilty.  Rejoicing in Clemens' "guilt" is premature (at best).

[BUWebguy]

Fehr says:
We told Bud we didn't want the report. We advised everyone not to cooperate, and decision was left to each person.
Couldn't read the report before it was released. Limited comments.

Nice contradiction there. The report says every player listed was contacted; if they had cooperated, they would have known what would be reported about them.

[VirtualBob]

The labels cloud your argument.

Perhaps.  Clouds are sometimes introduced in spite of any labels, though.  I'm not sure what label best describes a practice of encouraging obviously guilty parties to avoid punishment by providing an unsubstantiated list of names of those that the powers-that-be would like to see as guilty.

[pravata]

Perhaps.  Clouds are sometimes introduced in spite of any labels, though.  I'm not sure what label best describes a practice of encouraging obviously guilty parties to avoid punishment by providing an unsubstantiated list of names of those that the powers-that-be would like to see as guilty.

Just that.  It happens in many places and many times. Nobody has to be a Nazi.

[pravata]

Good points all.  I just think we need to push hard for the kinds of real investigations that the report recommends ... using reasonable rules of evidence [neither single-source "hearsay" nor stonewalling based on the MLBPA work agreement] regardless of whether it is a "criminal" or "legal" or "whathaveyou" effort.  Then begin to consider what that means for the guilty.  Rejoicing in Clemens' "guilt" is premature (at best).

This report is very similar to an internal investigation by a corporation.  Causing "Rejoicing" wasn't the intent.  You start talking about "reasonable rules of evidence" (you don't want to get into that either) and everybody gets a lawyer, to misquote Eleanor of Aquitaine in The Lion in Winter "Of course he has a lawyer, he always has a lawyer, we all have lawyers. It's 2007!"

[Froback]

I think there is nothing that will actually come out of this report, other than perhaps a stronger incentive for MLB and MLBPA to stay vigilant on the task of doing what they can to keep things like steroids out of their sport (even if just from a public perception angle).

I think if you are a fan and looking for something from this report, I think you can take aware that if this many people can be even remotely linked by documents or people's accounts without much if any cooperation from MLBPA or the players themselves, you can be sure that the actual number of people involved in this type of thing was dramatically higher than the report indicates specifically.

But since that would mean probably close to 50% if not more of all MLB players were involved even occasionally in steroids, nobody should be vilified for it in retrospect.  But with testing in place, I think you can hope it will be better monitored to try to avoid the situation getting that bad again.  You are NEVER going to eliminate these players from looking for something to give them a competitive advantage.  So while we want to have pure heroes to "worship" the reality is they are just a human as the rest of us.

[VirtualBob]

You start talking about "reasonable rules of evidence" (you don't want to get into that either) and everybody gets a lawyer, to misquote Eleanor of Aquitaine in The Lion in Winter "Of course he has a lawyer, he always has a lawyer, we all have lawyers. It's 2007!"

[olive branch] Actually I did want to get into that ... it was the whole point of my original post.  Obviously, I did not realize exactly what it was that I was getting into.  And I certainly am not trying to generate any more business for an over-active legal community.  

error:  no closing tag

[tophfar]

If I may raise a concern, here, I think we should be a little careful with all of our cheering and jeering.  DQ is self-evidently an egotistical jerk, but he is still entitled to some sort of due process.  The tactics below, especially while they remain unconfirmed by a reliable second witness, seem to smack of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia.  It seems that the use was so widespread that there should be plenty of witnesses around, which makes it all the more important to seek them out before condeming anyone.

And please note:  I really do mean a reliable second witness, not a second reliable witness ... However strong our suspicions may be, I do not think we yet have our first reliable witness.

Awesome. A thread Godwin'd on orangewhoopass.  VirtualBob loses.

I think that's the first time i've seen that happen here.

[VirtualBob]

Awesome. A thread Godwin'd on orangewhoopass.  VirtualBob loses.

I think that's the first time i've seen that happen here.

I'm full of surprises.  Stay tuned.

[Limey]

Here's the current frontrunner for The Most Ridiculous Analysis of the Mitchell Report.  It's from Tim Kurkjian during ESPN's knee-jerk defense of Clemens:

"We know that if these allegations were all true, Clemens would not be denying them so vehemently".

Whether the allegations are true or not, that is a monumentally stupid statement.

I think he typed that while furiously sucking mints to take away the taste of Rajah's angus area.

[mihoba]

See it live!

Roger "The Rocket" Clemons – My Vigorous Workout, How I Played So Long

January 12th in Waco at the Texas High School Baseball Coaches Association
State Convention.

[baron]

Good points all.  I just think we need to push hard for the kinds of real investigations that the report recommends ... using reasonable rules of evidence [neither single-source "hearsay" nor stonewalling based on the MLBPA work agreement] regardless of whether it is a "criminal" or "legal" or "whathaveyou" effort.  Then begin to consider what that means for the guilty.  Rejoicing in Clemens' "guilt" is premature (at best).

For what it's worth, McNamee's statements aren't hearsay. He is an eyewitness. Now, whether he is an accomplice witness that (in criminal law) needs corroboration is another matter. But it isn't hearsay. It's just someone saying what he saw and did.

[homer]

DP admits to using HGH

"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said Saturday in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days."

[pravata]

DP admits to using HGH

"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said Saturday in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days."

"If(?) what I did was an error...  "I accept responsibility...."  which amounts to what?

[Rebel Jew]

DP admits to using HGH

"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said Saturday in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days."

i think his advisors noticed that his section of the report unintentionally implied something far less nefarious than racket's, and they acted accordingly to portray it in a positive way.  they're also pretty ballsy to so emphatically state that he tried the stuff for exactly two days and never tried it again.

[toddthebod]

Here's what's ballsy, Roger still thinking about pitching in 2008 and Newsday suggesting that it might be the Astros.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sproger1215,0,3405607.story

Personally, after last season (and his annoucement about coming home to New York) I'd tell Roger to fuck off.  But I could see the Drayton giving Roger a shot at a much reduced salary.

[BUWebguy]

"If(?) what I did was an error...  "I accept responsibility...."  which amounts to what?

Wow - that is weak. It's not accepting responsibility if you don't accept that what you did was wrong. I think they teach that in most Sunday School classes.

[Dobro]

Wow - that is weak. It's not accepting responsibility if you don't accept that what you did was wrong. I think they teach that in most Sunday School classes.

What exactly did he do that was wrong?

[Limey]

"If(?) what I did was an error...  "I accept responsibility...."  which amounts to what?

It's the verbal equivalent of putting on your double-flashers when stopping illegally and blocking traffic.  The double-flashers make it ok, you see.  And it's ok to do bad things as long as you accept responsibilty afterwards, even though such acceptance is made on the basis that it carries no consequences whatsoever.

[Amorican_Idol]

I made a post on this thread in earnest about Rocket and legal options and noone even cared to answer it. It's much more salient with Andy Pettitte's quote's from today. Fucking Ponderous.

[jasonact]

I made a post on this thread in earnest about Rocket and legal options and noone even cared to answer it. It's much more salient with Andy Pettitte's quote's from today. Fucking Ponderous.

This thread's moving along at a nice clip. It may have simply been overlooked. Try starting a new thread.

Hold on. Is this the post you mean?

Rocket is screwed. Big TIME.

like others said, the Truth is an absoute defense. No matter how damaging.

Rocket and counsel would have to prove Mitchell and MLB et al.. knew it was false and printed it anyway to damage him specifically (malice). As a public figure his burden is almost impossible to overcome. Courts say guys like Clemens have acesss to the media and can answer the allegations. By the way, Libel is printed and Slander is spoken (saying something damaging on the radio).

So what now?, he's going to sue federal investigators? The IRS, FBI and the U.S. Attorney? Rocket has alot of jack, but not near enough to beat that rap. Also, Mitchell had MLB sign papers that he can't be sued and any suit is MLB's problem.

Sorry Rocket, you are ruined!

This is a Federal Case.

There are mainly just opinions here. Were you looking for someone to agree? I didn't think there were questions needing answers, rather questions and answers in the same post.

[jasonact]

See it live!

Roger "The Rocket" Clemons – My Vigorous Workout, How I Played So Long

January 12th in Waco at the Texas High School Baseball Coaches Association
State Convention.

Was that a joke, or did they remove him from the agenda? He's not currently listed anywhere on the schedule.

[Froback]

I made a post on this thread in earnest about Rocket and legal options and noone even cared to answer it. It's much more salient with Andy Pettitte's quote's from today. Fucking Ponderous.

I sure hope you were not refering to your post about Roger being F-ed cause it was a federal case.  Because as far as I know the only federal case linking Baseball Players and Steroids (or HGH) is BALCO, which is only linked to Bonds because he LIED to a grand jury.  The Mitchell report has ZERO legal nature to it.  It was something like an internal corporate investigation.

Not saying you won't seem maybe some drug trafficing stuff related to some of the "trainers" down the road maybe, but at least at this point, Clemens is in no legal trouble that I am aware of and certainly not on the Federal level.

And as for nobody responding to your 1 or 2 posts in a thread this long.... WFW

[Craig]

I made a post on this thread in earnest about Rocket and legal options and noone even cared to answer it. It's much more salient with Andy Pettitte's quote's from today. Fucking Ponderous.

FIFY

[Jacksonian]

I made a post on this thread in earnest about Rocket and legal options and noone even cared to answer it. It's much more salient with Andy Pettitte's quote's from today. Fucking Ponderous.

Are you talking about the post where you gave your opinions and added a few rhetorical questions?  If so, why would you expect a response?  It's not as if anyone could give a competent answer to your questions.  And, why is anyone obligated to respond to your opinions?

[Amorican_Idol]

Froback- It's a Federal Case. Radomski is looking at 25 years. The IRS and FBI and U.S. Atty are working this. Do some research.

[Froback]

Froback- It's a Federal Case. Radomski is looking at 25 years. The IRS and FBI and U.S. Atty are working this. Do some research.

That may be true, but to this point, as far as I know, Clemens has not been implicated, or even asked to testify.  So while you are correct, I don't know many details on that case, I am sure I would have heard of something like Clemens being indicted or even called to testify.  With the sports reporters in a frenzy over the stuff in the Mitchell report, I am sure this would be a big talking point.

[pravata]

That may be true, but to this point, as far as I know, Clemens has not been implicated, or even asked to testify.  So while you are correct, I don't know many details on that case, I am sure I would have heard of something like Clemens being indicted or even called to testify.  With the sports reporters in a frenzy over the stuff in the Mitchell report, I am sure this would be a big talking point.

BALCO sports-doping investigation.

At a hearing in U.S. District Court in San Francisco, Kirk Radomski, 37, a onetime batboy and Mets clubhouse attendant who became a weight trainer and steroids dealer, admitted distributing testosterone. Radomski also pleaded guilty to laundering the proceeds of a $2,000 steroids sale.

One of Radomski's customers is a baseball player caught up in the BALCO affair, according to a source familiar with court records prepared for the case but not publicly available Friday. Radomski, who said his customers came from teams throughout the major leagues, agreed to testify before grand juries and at trials in future government criminal cases and to cooperate with Major League Baseball's steroids investigation, being conducted by former U.S. Sen. George Mitchell.

In exchange, prosecutors will consider leniency in the case, which carries a maximum sentence of 25 years, according to a plea agreement.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/04/28/MNGF2PHDCI1.DTL&type=printable

From the WSJ

Mr. Mitchell said he didn't think the report would lead to criminal prosecutions of any of the named individuals. One player, Barry Bonds, recently was indicted on perjury and obstruction-of-justice charges in the investigation of the Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative. Mr. Bonds has pleaded not guilty.

The former Senate majority leader, who more recently helped broker a peace agreement in Northern Ireland, was hired by Major League Baseball to conduct the investigation. His law firm, DLA Piper, is being paid for its work.

In deciding whether to publish a name, Mr. Mitchell said, he didn't adhere to any legal standard. Mr. Mitchell's team had no authority to compel cooperation or take testimony under oath, which are standard elements of legal investigations. "This was not a legal proceeding -- it was a private investigation conducted by a private citizen," said Mr. Mitchell.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119768329215130907.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Do some research. 

[HudsonHawk]

What exactly did he do that was wrong?

Well violation of federal drug laws for starters.  Violation of baseball's drug policy secondly.  Then he lied when asked about it.  I'm sure you don't have a problem with the lying, but I think God does.  Maybe he doesn't , I don't know.  Andy seems to have his pulse.

[mihoba]

Was that a joke, or did they remove him from the agenda? He's not currently listed anywhere on the schedule.

He was scheduled as the featured speaker. Big time gap from 11:00-11:45. I also read a follow up article, but it was gone too, however I had saved this email from a friend:

Roger Clemens May Get Booted by Texas High-School Coaches             
By Scott Soshnick
     Dec. 14 (Bloomberg) -- The Texas High School Baseball
Coaches Association may rescind its invitation to Roger Clemens
to speak at the organization's state convention after the
pitcher was named in former Senator George Mitchell's report on
steroids use.
     Clemens, a seven-time Cy Young Award winner, has agreed to
speak at the convention Jan. 12. The title of the Major League
Baseball pitcher's speech, according to the organization's Web
site, is ``My Vigorous Workout, How I Played So Long.''
     Association President Jim Long said in a telephone
interview that the organization's officers want to speak with
Clemens before making a decision on whether to rescind the
offer. The executives want to meet and make a decision by the
end of next week, he said.
     ``This casts a dark cloud above him. There's a big shadow
there,'' Long said. ``But I don't want to rush to judgment.''
    The 45-year-old Clemens, who played college baseball at the University of Texas,
 won't be paid for the appearance, Long said.
     Mitchell in his report named more than 80 players,
including Yankees pitcher and Clemens friend Andy Pettitte, who
plays for the New York Yankees. In all, the report connected two
Cy Young winners, seven Most Valuable Players and 31 All-Stars
to steroids, stimulants and human growth hormone.
     Among those providing information about players was Brian
McNamee, a former trainer for the Toronto Blue Jays and Yankees,
who said Clemens approached him in 1998 about using steroids.
McNamee told investigators he injected Clemens numerous times
with steroids.
     ``It's a sad day for baseball, especially in Texas,'' Long
said. ``Everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt, but we have
to put our kids first. That's what we'll do.''

[Dobro]

Well violation of federal drug laws for starters.

Is it known that Pettitte used HGH without a prescription?  If he did, then you are correct, he violated federal drug laws; however, I'm sure you know that anytime anyone takes a prescription drug of any kind that they do not have a prescription for, they are violating federal drug laws, whether it's HGH, Viagra, an antibiotic, whatever.  It would have been extremely easy for Andy to obtain a proper prescription for HGH, if he did not have one at the time.  

Violation of baseball's drug policy secondly. 

He did not violate baseball's drug policy.

Then he lied when asked about it.

Well, shame on Andy for lying.

[pravata]

That may be true, but to this point, as far as I know, Clemens has not been implicated, or even asked to testify.  So while you are correct, I don't know many details on that case, I am sure I would have heard of something like Clemens being indicted or even called to testify.  With the sports reporters in a frenzy over the stuff in the Mitchell report, I am sure this would be a big talking point.

Also, Radomski has nothing to do with Clemens.  McNamee provided the information on Clemens.

[HudsonHawk]

Is it known that Pettitte used HGH without a prescription?  If he did, then you are correct, he violated federal drug laws; however, I'm sure you know that anytime anyone takes a prescription drug of any kind that they do not have a prescription for, they are violating federal drug laws, whether it's HGH, Viagra, an antibiotic, whatever.  It would have been extremely easy for Andy to obtain a proper prescription for HGH, if he did not have one at the time.  

It was not stated whether or not he had a legitimate prescription, but it is implied that he did not.  If he had one, it would probably go a lot farther if he simply said so, rather than the "IF it were an error in judgement..." BS.

He did not violate baseball's drug policy.

If he used HGH without a valid prescription to treat a recognized medical condition he certainly did.

[Dobro]

It was not stated whether or not he had a legitimate prescription, but it is implied that he did not.  If he had one, it would probably go a lot farther if he simply said so, rather than the "IF it were an error in judgement..." BS.

Why do you think it is implied that he did not?  As I said, prescriptions were very easy to get, and it was certainly in the players best interest to get a prescription, for reasons other than legal.

If he used HGH without a valid prescription to treat a recognized medical condition he certainly did.

Do you have a link to the text of this policy?  Are you saying that he simply used a prescription drug without a prescription (assuming that's the case)?  Or are you saying that he used a banned substance?  GH was not a banned substance at that time.

[HudsonHawk]

Why do you think it is implied that he did not?  As I said, prescriptions were very easy to get, and it was certainly in the players best interest to get a prescription, for reasons other than legal.

Because 1) he's named in the report on illicit use of PEDs, and 2) no where is it mentioned that he had a prescription, including from Pettitte himself.  If he had one, he would likely have said so, a la Rick Ankiel, wouldn't you think?

Do you have a link to the text of this policy?  Are you saying that he simply used a prescription drug without a prescription (assuming that's the case)?  Or are you saying that he used a banned substance?  GH was not a banned substance at that time.

I'm saying the former.  While HGH was not specifically listed at the time, the drug policy says use of any controlled substance without a legitimate prescription was prohibited. 

[NeilT]

[olive branch]  I certainly am not trying to generate any more business for an over-active legal community.  

error:  no closing tag

Why not?  It's ok by me if you do.

[T. J.]

He was scheduled as the featured speaker. Big time gap from 11:00-11:45. I also read a follow up article, but it was gone too, however I had saved this email from a friend:

Here's the Chron story on it.  They're "likely" cutting his speech:  http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5384407.html

[Don]

Schilling has called on Clemens to either clear his name or give back 4 Cy Young Awards.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5392675.html

"If he doesn't do that, then there aren't many options as a fan for me other than to believe his career 192 wins and three Cy Youngs he won prior to 1997 were the end," Schilling wrote Wednesday in his blog, 38pitches.com. "From that point on, the numbers were attained through using (performance-enhancing drugs). Just like I stated about Jose (Canseco), if that is the case with Roger, the four Cy Youngs should go to the rightful winners, and the numbers should go away if he cannot refute the accusations."

Schilling noted in the 3,200-word posting that he was a fan of the seven-time Cy Young winner and owed much of his success to a stern talking-to he received from Clemens when Schilling was a prospect in the Boston system.

"His 'undressing' of me and lecture were a major turning point," Schilling said. "I've always respected his career accomplishments and regarded him as the greatest pitcher to ever play the game."

[Limey]

Why do you think it is implied that he did not?  As I said, prescriptions were very easy to get, and it was certainly in the players best interest to get a prescription, for reasons other than legal.

Let me get this straight:  if Andy obtained a prescription under false pretenses as a cover for his unnecessary use of HGH, you'd be ok with that?

[Froback]

Schilling has called on Clemens to either clear his name or give back 4 Cy Young Awards.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5392675.html

About the only current players with a bigger ego than Schilling is Clemens.  He is in some ways a bigger blow-hard too.

[Noe]

Schilling noted in the 3,200-word posting that he was a fan of the seven-time Cy Young winner and owed much of his success to a stern talking-to he received from Clemens when Schilling was a prospect in the Boston system.

That happened when Schilling was a reliever/closer to be in Houston.  Clemens, who worked out in Houston, basically told Schil he was lazy and throwing away his career as a starter.  Houston traded Schilling to Philly and what Clemens said to him stayed with him and that caused the major turn around for Mr. Schilling.

The rest is history.

BTW - one drama queen calling out another drama queen is actually quite funny.  Way to get your name in the papers Schilling *without* being in the Mitchell Report.

[geezerdonk]

I made a post on this thread in earnest about Rocket and legal options and noone even cared to answer it.

Herman doesn't post on this board.
You might catch him on AD.