Major announcement at 12:30

[homer]

per 1560

Dick says Albers, Patton, Scott and Sarfate for Tejada.

[JJxvi]

This sucks if we only get Tejada. 790 says Costanzo involved also.

[homer]

Apparently someone has spoken to Patton and he has confirmed.

Also, it may not be Sarfate.

[Phil_in_CS]

The Astros have acquired slugger Miguel Tejada from the Baltimore Orioles for a package that includes outfielder Luke Scott, Matt Albers, Troy Patton, third base prospect Mike Costanzo and perhaps another player, a person with knowledge of the talks has confirmed to the Chronicle.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5372325.html

edited to add that's a damn steep price.

[JackAstro]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5372325.html

edited to add that's a damn steep price.

Steep, indeed. Losing Patton seems particularly tough. I'll reserve judgement, but I'm extremely curious to see what the plan for the infield is, assuming the report is correct and AE/Wigginton aren't involved.

[I'm Richies Dad]

We got hosed. So I guess at 2pm eastern we find out his name is in the Mitchell report?

[JJxvi]

Looks we should have a super sweet rotation next year.

[Noe]

Tejada has a no-trade clause, did he waive it?  Four or five for one?  Albers and Scott I can see (been rumored to be a package they've talked to folks about all winter long), Constanzo?  Yeah, okay.  But to add Patton and then one more player for a player like Tejada when the team needs pitching?  Hmmmmm... okay, let's see what WadeSmith says is the thinking behind this one.

For me, personally, looks like McLane got his big name splash for this winter and the fans who buy season tickets are appeased.  Maybe not.

[Lurch]

We got hosed. So I guess at 2pm eastern we find out his name is in the Mitchell report?

Perhaps Astros management waited to see the report before moving forward with this?

[Phil_in_CS]

Perhaps Astros management waited to see the report before moving forward with this?

We can hope. Loosing Patton is tough since we were very thin (at best) in starters and prospects. He will be better at third that Wiggy, but by how much?

[xxx]

On Foxsports said its a done deal. Scott, Albers and prospects. Tejada signed through 2009 $12 mil per season.

[Noe]

On Foxsports said its a done deal. Scott, Albers and prospects. Tejada signed through 2009 $12 mil per season.

Yeah, Albers and Scott has been the package the Astros waived in front of many teams for the entire winter (Not Scott and Burke as many believed in the local media... it's always been Albers and Scott with Burke going on his own in any deal).  What prospects though?  Constanzo makes sense.  But Patton?  Hmmmm.... maybe the Astros feel Wandy is further along than most of us believe and also Guiterrez and Paulino are also ready for a spot on the team in lieu of Patton.

Strange trade.

[BringBackBillySpiers]

Patton is definitely the part that hurt the most... where does the team build from here now that we have AE, Wiggy, and Tejada and only two spots?
I would like to keep Wiggy at third, and trade AE
Lineup:
Bourn
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Tejada
Wigginton
Towles
Kaz

[Noe]

Steep, indeed. Losing Patton seems particularly tough. I'll reserve judgement, but I'm extremely curious to see what the plan for the infield is, assuming the report is correct and AE/Wigginton aren't involved.

AE, to my knowledge (along with Burke) were never discussed in any deals with the Orioles.  Scott, yes.  Albers, yes.  But now that they have Tejada, what are the plans for the team?  Looks like a confusing deal in terms of the overall plan, but we shall see what the Astros have in mind.

I can't figure it out other than a marketing boom for McLane (at this point).

[Limey]

We can hope. Loosing Patton is tough since we were very thin (at best) in starters and prospects. He will be better at third that Wiggy, but by how much?

Irrelevant, as he will be at least better.  It's the upgrade in the batter's box that is the big deal here.

[Jacksonian]

Patton is definitely the part that hurt the most... where does the team build from here now that we have AE, Wiggy, and Tejada and only two spots?
I would like to keep Wiggy at third, and trade AE
Lineup:
Bourn
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Tejada
Wigginton
Towles
Kaz

AE has not yet been tendered.

[hostros7]

I fear this deal may make the Jennings trade look like a GM of the year move in comparison.

[Limey]

where does the team build from here now that we have AE, Wiggy, and Tejada and only two spots?

Wiggy replaces Lamb on the bench?

[Jacksonian]

Yeah, Albers and Scott has been the package the Astros waived in front of many teams for the entire winter (Not Scott and Burke as many believed in the local media... it's always been Albers and Scott with Burke going on his own in any deal).  What prospects though?  Constanzo makes sense.  But Patton?  Hmmmm.... maybe the Astros feel Wandy is further along than most of us believe and also Guiterrez and Paulino are also ready for a spot on the team in lieu of Patton.

Strange trade.

Agreed.  And, if the Astros identified are correct and if Tejada is the only return, a bad one for the Astros long term, IMO.

[Lurch]

I fear this deal may make the Jennings trade look like a GM of the year move in comparison.

Let's get all of the details and look at it in context with perhaps other trades this may set up before saying the sky is falling

[Towlie]

...I don't get this trade. I dont f*cking get this trade...I absolutely hate this trade so far.

[Trey]

Perhaps Astros management waited to see the report before moving forward with this?

I would hope that if not, they at least put something in nullifying the deal if he was named or if there were any penalties for him.

[JJxvi]

Any "moves this sets up" better be awesome because you just traded a lot of pieces that would be helpful in making them...

[Towlie]

Maybe a Burke deal is in the works to add pitching seeing that we just traded away almost all of what we had!!!

[Noe]

Agreed.  And, if the Astros identified are correct and if Tejada is the only return, a bad one for the Astros long term, IMO.

I wonder if AE is more hurt and not the same in the eyes of the Astros and this is to have a decent alternative, especially if you want to provide more offense (and hope the defense is okay enough).  Like I said, I'm willing to listen to the rationale behind this because I doubt this is a precursor for another deal.

I wonder if the Astros already have in mind a free agent arm to go with at the #2 (Lieber?  Jennings?) and hope for the best.  With all the chips they've just tossed into this deal, they don't have anything left to deal with and certainly have only Guiterrez and Paulino as young arms to go with.

Is Wandy looked at by the brass as a player who will be much better in 2008 than he's been in the past.

[MusicMan]

Let's get all of the details and look at it in context with perhaps other trades this may set up before saying the sky is falling

Those other deals better be stellar.  Because in isolation - the Astros just bent over.

[OldBlevins]

The Astros better have gotten Bedard, too, or this seems like a very uneven trade.

[dirty steve]

to accept all the remaining $$$ AND give up all that organizational depth?  there has to be something else coming our way.

[Jacksonian]

I wonder if AE is more hurt and not the same in the eyes of the Astros and this is to have a decent alternative, especially if you want to provide more offense (and hope the defense is okay enough). 

Agreed.  As I noted, AE has not been tendered a contract yet.  Which I find very odd for an incumbent shortstop.

Like I said, I'm willing to listen to the rationale behind this because I doubt this is a precursor for another deal.

Me too.

I wonder if the Astros already have in mind a free agent arm to go with at the #2 (Lieber?  Jennings?) and hope for the best.  With all the chips they've just tossed into this deal, they don't have anything left to deal with and certainly have only Guiterrez and Paulino as young arms to go with.

IMO there has to be.  This is a going for the division in 08 deal.

Is Wandy looked at by the brass as a player who will be much better in 2008 than he's been in the past.

He must be.

[Towlie]

The Astros better have gotten Bedard, too, or this seems like a very uneven trade.

if they got Bedard then yeah im ok with what happened...though our bullpen looks like bad.

[Lurch]

Balt Sun

"While executives both in and outside the organization felt that the player would be best served to move to another position like third base, Tejada, who grew up idolizing Alfredo Griffin and believing that shortstop was the position that he'd play throughout his career, resisted such a move.

MacPhail met for nearly an hour with Tejada on the final weekend of the 2007 season. During the meeting that both sides described as productive, Tejada told him that his preference was to remain at shortstop, but that wasn't his main goal.

"I want to win," Tejada said of his message to MacPhail. "It's not about changing positions. My point isn't about changing positions. My point is winning. I don't want to play every day just for money. I'm not that kind of person. I play for pride. I don't care about changing positions if we're going to be a winner, and I want to be on a team that is going to compete to win."
"

[BringBackBillySpiers]

This deal could also negatively affect Patton, the reason he signed in 2004 and didnt go to UT was because all he wanted to do was play for the Astros, will he have the same motivation to produce for the O's?. He has been described lazy by many scouts, maybe this will make him want to work harder or even less?

[Noe]

The Astros better have gotten Bedard, too, or this seems like a very uneven trade.

No way they got Bedard too.  Inclusion of Patton and Albers means that Baltimore can now trade Bedard somewhere else (like the Mariners) for some monster prospects like Jones.  That would mean the Orioles would turn a couple of players into a boatload of good to great prospects.

As coach always says: "Prospects means not done anything in the majors yet".

[Towlie]

...so Drayton expects us to be happy about this?

[Duman]

This deal could also negatively affect Patton, the reason he signed in 2004 and didnt go to UT was because all he wanted to do was play for the Astros, will he have the same motivation to produce for the O's?. He has been described lazy by many scouts, maybe this will make him want to work harder or even less?

Troy isn't lazy. Love to see your sources for the "many scouts".  He wants to be a big league pitcher.  He understands the business side of things.  He has gotten a taste of the bigs and may actually get more of a taste now in Baltimore. 

It might be a blow to the ego to go from being home town golden boy to just another prospect but I have confidence in him. Troy is a professional.

[EasTexAstro]

Odd.

I wonder if there might be a 3rd party involved that will send something to the Astros?

ETA: Nevermind, I guess. The Alyson doesn't report a thing on a 3rd party.

[MusicMan]

Troy is a professional.

From JdJO's blog (yes, I went to confession afterward):

Yes, Patton was sad at the news. He grew up an Astros fan here in the area, but he was pleased when I told him today that the Orioles were in the American League East.

"Are they in with the Yankees and the Red Sox?" he asked me.

Wow.

[legs_of_eggs]

Did any of those 5 guys we traded have a ceiling higher than just above average? Seems like we moved 5 not so high ceiling prospects for a former MVP. Now we have the freedom to move burke wigginton or everett for some kind of pitching, maybe for more average to above average prospects?

[JackAstro]

If the presser is being broadcast, could someone do PBP?

[EasTexAstro]

Did any of those 5 guys we traded have a ceiling higher than just above average? Seems like we moved 5 not so high ceiling prospects for a former MVP. Now we have the freedom to move burke wigginton or everett for some kind of pitching, maybe for more average to above average prospects?

Patton might have been a 2/3 pitcher.

Other than that, meh.

[ybbodeus]

He (Troy) has gotten a taste of the bigs and may actually get more of a taste now in Baltimore. 

"More" of a taste or just a different taste?  That franchise is a shell of its former self in terms of production and relevance.

[Towlie]

can someone give me a hug?

[Jacksonian]

Did any of those 5 guys we traded have a ceiling higher than just above average? Seems like we moved 5 not so high ceiling prospects for a former MVP. Now we have the freedom to move burke wigginton or everett for some kind of pitching, maybe for more average to above average prospects?

Albers has top of the rotation stuff.  Patton has #2/#3 starter stuff.  Sarfate throws 100mph.

[Noe]

IMO there has to be.  This is a going for the division in 08 deal.

This is about the season right now, not the post-season.  McLane has insured that a 79 win season is not in the cards and now the season ticket folk have a reason to come to the park every day.  Make no mistake, it's an improvement from last year... and the division is now within sight with this team.

But this is not a move to make them NL contenders per se, unless they plan to make deals at the deadline with some of the remaining chips (Paulino/Guiterrez, Manzella/Flores, et. al.) to make themselves a post season strong team.  It has to be pitching and defense at that point.  Who knows though, what if Paulino proves to be a much better arm than Patton would ever be?  Same with Guiterrez.  Wandy might prove to final turn the corner.

The Cardinals have been a good postseason team with shrewd moves to make themselves better with decent pitching and a strong offense.  BTW - this is looking a lot like the Phillys of several years ago.  Decent/average pitching, super strong offense.  Ed Wade has put his signature on this team with this deal.  No doubt.

[Colt 45]

If the presser is being broadcast, could someone do PBP?

Ditto, plz

[Trey]

From JdJO's blog (yes, I went to confession afterward):
Wow.

I find it really hard to believe that a pro ball player wouldn't know what division a team was in.

[Noe]

...so Drayton expects us to be happy about this?

Who is "us"?

[Duman]

From JdJO's blog (yes, I went to confession afterward):
Wow.

Let me assure you, Troy was joking.  I am a not very objective when it comes to Troy.  My family got to know him when he was in Greeneville and he was very kind to my son.  I have had baseball conversations with him,  I assure you, he knows what division the O's are in.  He has a bit of a dry wit.

[MusicMan]

Rosenthal says:

The move means that the Astros are unlikely to offer their incumbent shortstop, Adam Everett, a contract by Wednesday's midnight deadline to tender proposals.

The way this is written makes it sound to me like his speculation, not based on information.

[legs_of_eggs]

Albers has top of the rotation stuff.  Patton has #2/#3 starter stuff.  Sarfate throws 100mph.

Redding had top of the rotation stuff as Albers did, its all about the two cent head they both have, I think Patton has a better future than Albers. Farnsworth and Sarfate throw 100mph big deal? The pieces we moved aren't on the radar of where Tejada is....are we saying that this deal is so in favor for the Orioles that it will turn the organization around? I think not.

[Noe]

Ditto, plz

Starting right now.  I need to leave, so I may not get the entire thing transcribed for you.  But I might (*ahem*) do something to (*ahem*) have an archive of it.

*wink, wink*

[Jacksonian]

Rosenthal says:

The way this is written makes it sound to me like his speculation, not based on information.

Agreed.  But, suspicious that the Astros incumbent SS had not yet been given a contract.

Maybe AE wasn't being sarcastic.

[Noe]

Tejada bats third, Pence moves down to six. (first thing Wade mentioned).

Tejada is going to play shortstop (big news).

AE is going to be non-tendered.

[MRaup]

Starting right now.  I need to leave, so I may not get the entire thing transcribed for you.  But I might (*ahem*) do something to (*ahem*) have an archive of it.

*wink, wink*

Noe, are you coming on to me?

[MusicMan]

Per Wade, the 2008 lineup:

CF Bourn
2b Matsui
SS Tejada
1b Berkman
LF Lee
RF Pence
3b Wigginton
C Towles

and an exact quote... "This is about '08".

[londoncalling]

I do like the lineup:  Bourne, Matsui, Pence, Berkman, Lee, Tejada, Wiggington, Towles, Pitcher.  Hate the rotation:  Oswalt, Wandy, Williams, Backe, ?.  I'm assuming AE is nontendered.  Is the injury still a concern or the bat or both?

[legs_of_eggs]

Per Wade, the 2008 lineup:

CF Bourn
2b Matsui
SS Tejada
1b Berkman
LF Lee
RF Pence
3b Wigginton
C Towles

and an exact quote... "This is about '08".

Sounds like we added defense by adding offense

[BizidyDizidy]

Did he mentioned whether lube was used?

[Ty in Tampa]

Per Wade, the 2008 lineup:

CF Bourn
2b Matsui
SS Tejada
1b Berkman
LF Lee
RF Pence
3b Wigginton
C Towles

and an exact quote... "This is about '08".

These are not your older brother's Astros.

[JackAstro]

Per Wade, the 2008 lineup:

CF Bourn
2b Matsui
SS Tejada
1b Berkman
LF Lee
RF Pence
3b Wigginton
C Towles

and an exact quote... "This is about '08".

Shit. I'm going to miss that glove out there at short.

[farmstros]

did wade just say he see everett as a non-tender? wow!

[Noe]

Sounds like we added defense by adding offense

Wade believes that Tejada is not a defensive black hole.  Believes that he had an injured hand that hindered his play.

[matadorph]

God I hate this deal. This organization cannot afford to trade away its few pitching prospects for an overrated player like Miguel Tejada.

[At Ease]

I don't have any problems with this deal, personally.  My mind is open to hearing otherwise, but I don't get the angst over who we lost.  Neither Scott nor Sarfate are anything special.  Costanzo is a big ? as to how his swing will play out at the ML level.  Albers will have to improve quite a bit from last season to help the team this year.  And Patton, while a nice prospect, doesn't seem to have the stuff nor have put up strong numbers of late to suggest he's destined for stardom anytime soon.

There's a general principle that the team who gets the best player gets the better of a deal, and I think that's probably most applicable here, where you're getting a fairly unique talent for 5 guys that strike me as.. well, ordinary and replaceable.

[Noe]

did wade just say he see everett as a non-tender? wow!

Yes, he spoke to AE and told him that he will be non-tendered.

[MusicMan]

did wade just say he see everett as a non-tender? wow!

My feed just crapped out - confirm?

[das]

Tejada is going to play shortstop (big news).

AE is going to be non-tendered.

This is killing me...

[Greg M]

Who are all the players involved?  Patton, Albers, Scott and ...

[MusicMan]

"This is not a rebuilding situation."

[MusicMan]

Who are all the players involved?  Patton, Albers, Scott and ...

Costanzo, Sarfate

[JackAstro]

If AE is non-tendered, it ostensibly becomes a 6-for-1. Wow.

[EasTexAstro]

Per Wade, the 2008 lineup:

CF Bourn
2b Matsui
SS Tejada
1b Berkman
LF Lee
RF Pence
3b Wigginton
C Towles

and an exact quote... "This is about '08".

AE is out? Ouch.

[legs_of_eggs]

The key here is our best 'prospect' was Pence. After that its a lot of HUGE questions marks with HUGE ifs. Now our pitchers will have a lot more lead way as far as run support. I expect to win a lot of 8-5 games this year.

[BizidyDizidy]

The key here is our best 'prospect' was Pence. After that its a lot of HUGE questions marks with HUGE ifs. Now our pitchers will have a lot more lead way as far as run support. I expect to win a lot of 8-5 games this year.

Did they mention whether we are moving to the AL?

[Noe]

"This is not a rebuilding situation."

"Since day 1 when I arrived, (rebuilding) this was never communicated to me.  This is a not a rebuilding situation."  - Ed Wade

[Jacksonian]

I don't have any problems with this deal, personally.  My mind is open to hearing otherwise, but I don't get the angst over who we lost.  Neither Scott nor Sarfate are anything special.  Costanzo is a big ? as to how his swing will play out at the ML level.  Albers will have to improve quite a bit from last season to help the team this year.  And Patton, while a nice prospect, doesn't seem to have the stuff nor have put up strong numbers of late to suggest he's destined for stardom anytime soon.

There's a general principle that the team who gets the best player gets the better of a deal, and I think that's probably most applicable here, where you're getting a fairly unique talent for 5 guys that strike me as.. well, ordinary and replaceable.

Wade talked about expecting Tejada to be in all-star form despite a loss of range defensively.  He's going to have to be a serious force offensively, not a player in decline, for this to be in the Astros favor.

[Craig]

Yes, he spoke to AE and told him that he will be non-tendered.

Goddammit shit. Everett was my favorite Astro. He must be hurt worse that we thought. Fucking Carlos Lee.

[Noe]

"Tejada never had an no-trade clause and is not a 10/5 player.  I spoke to him (Tejada) and he's very excited to come here".

[Trey]

These are not your older brother's Astros.

Four guys left from the WS team: Oswalt, Berkman, Qualls and Backe.  Wandy makes five.  Anybody else?

[Limey]

Goddammit shit. Everett was my favorite Astro. He must be hurt worse that we thought. Fucking Carlos Lee.

Maybe it's his back.

[legs_of_eggs]

Wade talked about expecting Tejada to be in all-star form despite a loss of range defensively.  He's going to have to be a serious force offensively, not a player in decline, for this to be in the Astros favor.

 I think he'll go back to his mvp-form. I don't see why people don't see why Tejada is great. He won an mvp then signed in baseball's siberia and was still dominant, any lackluster play recently is all because of the depressing orioles oranization.

[DVauthrin]

That lineup is nasty, but i'm very concerned about the rotation.   I don't view albers and scott as big losses.  But giving up 5 players for one is a bit much, when you add costanzo, patton and sarfate to this deal.    I'm concerned about tejada's defense as well, but offensively, oh dear lord.   If they don't trade a hitter for a SP, that offense could lead the league in runs scored.

I'm guessing a run at livan or silva might be in the cards next?   Or now the pence for a guy like lincecum, haren or kazmir becomes a possibility.

[MusicMan]

Four guys left from the WS team: Oswalt, Berkman, Qualls and Backe.  Wandy makes five.  Anybody else?

Ausmus is still here.

[Limey]

Four guys left from the WS team: Oswalt, Berkman, Qualls and Backe.  Wandy makes five.  Anybody else?

Ausmus.

[Jacksonian]

Four guys left from the WS team: Oswalt, Berkman, Qualls and Backe.  Wandy makes five.  Anybody else?

Burke, for the moment.

[Craig]

Maybe it's his back.

You're right, I forgot about that. It still sucks balls to lose Everett. Fuck.

[MusicMan]

If AE is non-tendered, it ostensibly becomes a 6-for-1. Wow.

Lopez just brought up the same point.  You might want to shower now.

[EasTexAstro]

Goddammit shit. Everett was my favorite Astro. He must be hurt worse that we thought. Fucking Carlos Lee.

amen....

[Colt 45]

We still have plenty of cash for a pitcher, I love this deal.

[Gizzmonic]

Wow, this seems totally fuckin' nuts if it's true.  And I & I still don't have a no 2 pitcher!

[Jacksonian]

Or now the pence for a guy like lincecum, haren or kazmir becomes a possibility.

No chance.  Plus the Astros have no right fielder without him.

[Trey]

Ausmus is still here.

Of course... brainfart.

I assume that Burke is gone.  Ass, you, me and all.

[JackAstro]

Lopez just brought up the same point.  You might want to shower now.

Hate you.

[Noe]

Goddammit shit. Everett was my favorite Astro. He must be hurt worse that we thought. Fucking Carlos Lee.

We will never know for sure.  But this sure feels like a deal that had to be made because AE is not going to be the same.  I don't see AE as being a player they counted on any more and once he lost his defensive prowess because of the leg.  The Astros more than likely had huge concern and a non-tender (hinted at by AE) was probably already in the cards before this deal came about.  Makes sense that they thought about Clint Barmes for a deal with the Rockies. 

Looks like AE was done as an Astros as soon as he came back late in September and showed he's got a very long way to go to be the player he once was.  If ever.

[legs_of_eggs]

That lineup is nasty, but i'm very concerned about the rotation.   I don't view albers and scott as big losses.  But giving up 5 players for one is a bit much, when you add costanzo, patton and sarfate to this deal.    I'm concerned about tejada's defense as well, but offensively, oh dear lord.   If they don't trade a hitter for a SP, that offense could lead the league in runs scored.

I'm guessing a run at livan or silva might be in the cards next?   Or now the pence for a guy like lincecum, haren or kazmir becomes a possibility.

This is interesting. Pence for Lincecum is exciting, Haren or Kazmir is equally exciting. I doubt it would be explored though, Pence is already a 'fan favorite'

[DVauthrin]

You're right, I forgot about that. It still sucks balls to lose Everett. Fuck.

I loved AE too, but my bigger concern is how do you get a number 2 starter to complement Roy?   You have nothing left to deal.   And I think tejada like lee will flourish with MMP.

[Greg M]

We still have plenty of cash for a pitcher, I love this deal.

Who and how??  Not much on the FA market and nobody with trade value.

[Ty in Tampa]

Hate you.

Even a blind nut finds a squirrel every now and then.

[Twoniner]

 This pretty much sucks.   The only thing smart about this trade is that it at least it is focused on the near term.    Are system sucks, but Berkman, Lee, and Oswalt aren't getting any younger.    I don't have a problem taking a shot the next 2-3 years around them as the Stros are going to be down big time once those guys start really declining.   This was just too high of a price IMO.  

[Limey]

You're right, I forgot about that. It still sucks balls to lose Everett. Fuck.

I am feeling very ashamed of myself right now: for thinking that I hope it's Everett's back because that way I can still accept/support this trade.  The alternative is better for Everett, but sucks balls for me because I now agree with John C. Lopez.

[londoncalling]

Assuming Tejada retuns to the 25 plus HR, 100 RBI, .300 AVE that he had before last year's injury, where would he rank in all time Astro SS's?  Thon?  Metzger?  God, the Astros haven't had a decent hitting SS in forever.

[Jacksonian]

We will never know for sure.  But this sure feels like a deal that had to be made because AE is not going to be the same.  I don't see AE as being a player they counted on any more and once he lost his defensive prowess because of the leg.  The Astros more than likely had huge concern and a non-tender (hinted at by AE) was probably already in the cards before this deal came about.  Makes sense that they thought about Clint Barmes for a deal with the Rockies. 

Looks like AE was done as an Astros as soon as he came back late in September and showed he's got a very long way to go to be the player he once was.  If ever.

Also, I believe, AE would have been FA eligible after the 08 season.

[MusicMan]

We still have plenty of cash for a pitcher, I love this deal.

Fine.  Name a pitcher you want to give that cash to.

[kevwun]

It looks like the Astros gave up a lot right now, but I bet it's not going to look that way in a couple of years.

[DVauthrin]

No chance.  Plus the Astros have no right fielder without him.

A RF, or a number 2 starter for a decade.  With tejada the offense would still be way above average without hunter.  The latter is vastly more important and a lack of scott on the roster should not be a deterrent if you are serious about contending.

But I never said it would happen, just mentioning the option is at their disposal now.

[MusicMan]

This is interesting. Pence for Lincecum is exciting, Haren or Kazmir is equally exciting.

A threesome with Jessica Alba and Scarlett Johansen is exciting.  And equally likely.

[JackAstro]

Even a blind nut finds a squirrel every now and then.

If I'm the squirrel in this scenario, Lopez had best keep his fucking nuts to himself.

[legs_of_eggs]

It looks like the Astros gave up a lot right now, but I bet it's not going to look that way in a couple of years.

Egg-sxactly.. High price? Please people this isn't Carlos Guillen and Freddy Garcia, Patton will be the best chip in this deal and maybe be a good 2-3 starter. After that those guys won't be putting the Orioles org. back on the map.

[DVauthrin]

A threesome with Jessica Alba and Scarlett Johansen is exciting.  And equally likely.

considering sabean is debating on alex rios for lincecum as we speak, and haren is widely on the block and hunter would be the A's best hitter from day 1, I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility.   I don't know if kazmir is even on the block.

[Towlie]

I guess they must have another deal in the works then...thats the only way I see it. Oh well can't judge the deal until we see whatelse Wade has up his sleeve.

[JackAstro]

A threesome with Jessica Alba and Scarlett Johansen is exciting.  And equally likely.

Lopez is now reporting Pence for Alba and Johansen.

[legs_of_eggs]

A threesome with Jessica Alba and Scarlett Johansen is exciting.  And equally likely.

obviously others would be involved, but I'll take the threesome over the #2 starter.

[Duman]

It looks like the Astros gave up a lot right now, but I bet it's not going to look that way in a couple of years.

I agree with this.  Patton is the biggest loss, followed by Albers & Scott.  Sarafate was sold high after he performed over his head at the end of the year, Constanzo didn't show me much in Fall League.  Constanzo's loss makes the loss of Sellers in the rule 5 draft a bigger issue.  Look for the Astros to be giving a minor league contract to a corner infielder/DH soon.

[Limey]

This is interesting. Pence for Lincecum is exciting, Haren or Kazmir is equally exciting. I doubt it would be explored though, Pence is already a 'fan favorite'

Pence is going to make us miss Derek Bell's slotted glove in RF.  His natural position on this team is LF, and that's already (literally) full.  I'm not wishing him away, but Pence is a defensive misfit on this club.  Always has been.

[Towlie]

It would be nice to pick up pitching for Burke though.

[Limey]

Lopez is now reporting Pence for Alba and Johansen.

Enough to make the eyes pop out of your head.

[MusicMan]

It would be nice to pick up pitching for Burke though.

I'm sure they can get a Chan Ho Park-level guy for him.

[Ty in Tampa]

I highly doubt Kazmir is going anywhere.

[Limey]

Constanzo's loss makes the loss of Sellers in the rule 5 draft a bigger issue.

Goddamit!!!  It's Rule 5!!!

[MusicMan]

If I'm the squirrel in this scenario, Lopez had best keep his fucking nuts to himself.

Weren't we once told that Lopez is blind, with no sense of touch or smell, thus making it impossible for him to find the nut?

[Towlie]

I'm sure they can get a Chan Ho Park-level guy for him.

thats what we are looking at now on the roster aside from a few people.

[MusicMan]

I highly doubt Kazmir is going anywhere.

Burke for Victor Zambrano, Zambrano for Kazmir.

[londoncalling]

Isn't Brocail the pitcher that broke Tejada's wrist last year?

[legs_of_eggs]

Isn't Brocail the pitcher that broke Tejada's wrist last year?

Yes, and Berkman was on 610 radio last friday night saying we don't need Tejada and he would rather have pitching.

[Jacksonian]

It would be nice to pick up pitching for Burke though.

Fat chance unless it's for a low-A level prospect.

[JackAstro]

Pence is going to make us miss Derek Bell's slotted glove in RF.  His natural position on this team is LF, and that's already (literally) full.  I'm not wishing him away, but Pence is a defensive misfit on this club.  Always has been.

Who's the new RF would that Drayton were talked into such a thing? Please tell me it's Burke...

Enough to make the eyes pop out of your head.

He saw it coming from a mile away.

[Trey]

Look for the Astros to be giving a minor league contract to a corner infielder/DH soon.

Cheito?

[MusicMan]

Cheito?

He's an OF.

[remy]

Yes, and Berkman was on 610 radio last friday night saying we don't need Tejada and he would rather have pitching.

Berkman's just bitter still about the derby.

[Craig]

I am feeling very ashamed of myself right now: for thinking that I hope it's Everett's back because that way I can still accept/support this trade.  The alternative is better for Everett, but sucks balls for me because I now agree with John C. Lopez.

Damn, losing Adam Everett and agreeing with Lopez on the same day. I recommend a liquid lunch. But the way it's going, it'll probably be announced later that Alyson Footer has resigned to cover the WNBA.

[Limey]

Who's the new RF would that Drayton were talked into such a thing? Please tell me it's Burke...

Egads!  No.  I'm thinking that, to trade Pence, they have to be thinking a couple of trades ahead.  Or they'll pick one up from the scrapheap of non-tendereds.

[BizidyDizidy]

What happened to prav? I think he must be catatonic.

[JaneDoe]

I expect to win a lot of 8-5 games this year.

Ha.  I expect to lose alot of 15-13 games this year.  What pitching do we have? 

[Trey]

He's an OF.

Seriously.  There is something wrong with my brain today.  First Ausmus, now for some reason I read "infield" and think "outfield"

riiiiiight..... today

[Limey]

What happened to prav? I think he must be catatonic.

His Google exploded, or it's his company's holiday bash.  Can't see any other reason for him to be awol on today of all days.

[utastro]

His Google exploded, or it's his company's holiday bash.  Can't see any other reason for him to be awol on today of all days.

He passed out.  Someone get the smelling salts.

[legs_of_eggs]

Ha.  I expect to lose alot of 15-13 games this year.  What pitching do we have? 

What pitching did we have before this deal? I don't think we had a #2 starter before this trade and we still don't but we have a better offense now.

[Tralfaz]

Time will tell on this one.  It's alot to give up, but I look forward to seeing how it unfolds.  The line-up should be smoking hot, especially when they bring in Scarlett!

[Limey]

Time will tell on this one.  It's alot to give up, but I look forward to seeing how it unfolds.  The line-up should be smoking hot, especially when they bring in Scarlett!

Put me in, Coach!

[das]

Berkman's just bitter still about the derby.

I would guess Wade could care less about player musings.  Astros management has always been odd in that they have a history of responding to and caring about player sentiment.

[Jacksonian]

I take it back Noe.  This is a going for the World Series deal.  It makes no sense to get him and give up part of your future rotation and only hope for the division.  Tejada is only locked up for 08 and 09.  Will they try to extend him?  He's going to be 34 for the 2010 season.

[MusicMan]

I take it back Noe.  This is a going for the World Series deal.  It makes no sense to get him and give up part of your future rotation and only hope for the division.  Tejada is only locked up for 08 and 09.  Will they try to extend him?  He's going to be 34 for the 2010 season.

They'd better wait and see what his 08 is like first.  Especially defensively.  I don't want another 1b on our hands.

[Towlie]

I take it back Noe.  This is a going for the World Series deal.  It makes no sense to get him and give up part of your future rotation and only hope for the division.  Tejada is only locked up for 08 and 09.  Will they try to extend him?  He's going to be 34 for the 2010 season.

We got the the World Series because we had pitching...now we have hitting and no pitching other than Roy and a few others. This makes no sense to me if its a 'going the the World Series deal'. We are hoping for a lot of people to have career years on the mound it seems.

[legs_of_eggs]

Tejada is not a declining player. He is just as good as offensively and has lost a slight step defensively but before that he was a top defensive short stop.

[londoncalling]

What pitching did we have before this deal? I don't think we had a #2 starter before this trade and we still don't but we have a better offense now.

Replacing AE w/ Tejada isn't an improvement in offense?

[matadorph]

So much for all Coop's talk about Pence being an ideal fit for the #3 hitter....

[Jacksonian]

They'd better wait and see what his 08 is like first.  Especially defensively.  I don't want another 1b on our hands.

Agreed.  They didn't extend him as part of the deal so I'd bet that's part of the thinking.  But, if they're not going to extend him then why get him if they aren't going all out for the World Series in 08 and 09.

[austro]

Fine.  Name a pitcher you want to give that cash to.

I can see the headlines now: "Clemens mulling return to Astros."

[Limey]

I take it back Noe.  This is a going for the World Series deal.  It makes no sense to get him and give up part of your future rotation and only hope for the division.  Tejada is only locked up for 08 and 09.  Will they try to extend him?  He's going to be 34 for the 2010 season.

Roy ain't getting any younger.  Lance and Carlos aren't getting any slimmer.  This smacks of a big push to get it done before having to think about rebuilding.

[Jacksonian]

Tejada is not a declining player. He is just as good as offensively and has lost a slight step defensively but before that he was a top defensive short stop.

Wade's banking the team's future on that.

[legs_of_eggs]

Agreed.  They didn't extend him as part of the deal so I'd bet that's part of the thinking.  But, if they're not going to extend him then why get him if they aren't going all out for the World Series in 08 and 09.

This could be a didn't extend him yet kind of thing. Wait and see. I love this trade though, other than the phillies who has an offense that can compete with this one now?

[Jacksonian]

Roy ain't getting any younger.  Lance and Carlos aren't getting any slimmer.  This smacks of a big push to get it done before having to think about rebuilding.

Agreed.  But, if they (other than Roy) can't get anyone out they aren't going anywhere.

[Towlie]

well lets just hope they know what to use those 7 picks in the first 5 rounds nicely. Maybe we'll get a gem or two that'll take 2 or 3 years to be ready..............maybe.

[Limey]

Wade's banking the team's future on that.

This brings up the old chestnut:  would you rather be the Marlins, who suck almost entirely but have won two World Series; or the Astros who are the mirror image?

I'd say that this franchise has been around long enough that a little gamble with the future might not be a bad idea.  Also, this was the criticism of the trade for the Unit.  And probably some others too.

[legs_of_eggs]

Wade's banking the team's future on that.

Where are are getting off thinking those 5 guys we traded were the key to the Astros future? If thats so then we were in a lot worse of a situation then than now. Come on people, Albers Patton Scott Sarfate Costanzo? They really were our FUTURE???

[legs_of_eggs]

dont know why that last one was in bold my bad

[MusicMan]

Where are are getting off thinking those 5 guys we traded were the key to the Astros future? If thats so then we were in a lot worse of a situation then than now. Come on people, Albers Patton Scott Sarfate Costanzo? They really were our FUTURE???

LOUD NOISES!!!

[Limey]

dont know why that last one was in bold my bad

FIFY

[Towlie]

Who replaces these guys on the 40 man?

i figure Tommy Manzella will be on there now whoelse?

[Jacksonian]

Where are are getting off thinking those 5 guys we traded were the key to the Astros future? If thats so then we were in a lot worse of a situation then than now. Come on people, Albers Patton Scott Sarfate Costanzo? They really were our FUTURE???

Your future 2/3(Patton), Albers has easily #2 stuff it was just a matter of control, Sarfate has closer stuff, Costanzo has the talent (yet mlb unrealized) to be a starting 3b.

[Limey]

Who replaces these guys on the 40 man?

i figure Tommy Manzella will be on there now whoelse?

They can now attract a whole bunch of NRIs because they have space on the roster.  Perhaps they'll leave it with some gaps and see who shakes loose from other teams.

[Towlie]

Your future 2/3(Patton), Albers has easily #2 stuff it was just a matter of control, Sarfate has closer stuff, Costanzo has the talent (yet mlb unrealized) to be a starting 3b.

No one in our minors potentially takes there place? What about Paulino and Juan?

[legs_of_eggs]

Your future 2/3(Patton), Albers has easily #2 stuff it was just a matter of control, Sarfate has closer stuff, Costanzo has the talent (yet mlb unrealized) to be a starting 3b.

All very speculative. Tejada is the real deal, a proven commodity. For the naysayers can we atleast realize these super prospects we traded are now in the AL East, even better the Orioles. Pretty sure we won't have any perfect games thrown against us in the Series by Albers or Patton on the Orioles.

[Noe]

No one in our minors potentially takes there place? What about Paulino and Juan?

(hint) *Wesley Wright* (/hint)

[londoncalling]

Is this why Drayton was so seduced by Tejada:

Miguel Tejada of the Baltimore Orioles won the home run derby on Monday night, defeating Lance Berkman of the Houston Astros, the hometown favorite, with five homers in the third and final round to four for Berkman, before a crowd of 41,754 that included President Bush.

Both players were substitutes, Tejada for Jason Giambi of the Yankees, Berkman for Ken Griffey Jr. of Cincinnati.

Tejada broke two derby records with 15 homers in one round, the second, including a 497-foot blast, and 27 for all three rounds at Minute Maid Park, where the All-Star Game will be played Tuesday night.

The 27th homer enabled Tejada to defeat Berkman with 27 outs to spare. Afterward, Tejada, making his first appearance in the derby, wrapped himself in the flag of his native Dominican Republic.

[At Ease]

It certainly makes sense to play for '08, given how weak the NL is.. and given that we don't have an abundance of young talent to rebuild around, anyway.

[Towlie]

(hint) *Wesley Wright* (/hint)

Maybe...and i think you hate me T.T

[legs_of_eggs]

This offense is the best in the division and possibly best in the NL.

[Curly]

His Google exploded, or it's his company's holiday bash.  Can't see any other reason for him to be awol on today of all days.

He was included in the trade for Tejada too.  PTBNL (poster to be named later) was in small print at the bottom of the agreement.  Have you seen the O's boards...they needed quality in return.

[Towlie]

yes we have a nice offense but i want pitching too.

[Phil_in_CS]

As someone who grew up watching NL small ball in the 70's and 80's, where pitching and defense ruled, it will be quite odd to watch my favorite team with this type of structure. They will mash it for sure. Look for Roy to have a stellar year.

[Andyzipp]

Yes, and Berkman was on 610 radio last friday night saying we don't need Tejada and he would rather have pitching.

Berkman also thinks that Chris Burke would be an All-Star if the Astros would just give him a chance.

[JackAstro]

This offense is the best in the division and possibly best in the NL.

We get it. You like the fucking offense.

[Limey]

Did they mention whether we are moving to the AL?

Need to beat the AL to win the Series.

[hostros7]

Offenses do not win championships, or even playoff series.  See Yankees, New York.

[Jacksonian]

All very speculative. Tejada is the real deal, a proven commodity. For the naysayers can we atleast realize these super prospects we traded are now in the AL East, even better the Orioles. Pretty sure we won't have any perfect games thrown against us in the Series by Albers or Patton on the Orioles.

Trouble is your leadoff man, #2 hitter, #8 hitter are all question marks.  You deal for a masher to run at the World Series without having confidence based on major league performance in 3 of your other 8 hitters.  Plus you bank on Pence not having a sophomore slump.  This makes no sense to me with so many questions in the everyday players much less the pitching.

[Noe]

It certainly makes sense to play for '08, given how weak the NL is.. and given that we don't have an abundance of young talent to rebuild around, anyway.

I think you're correct on this one.  It sure seems to be Wade's primary topic at the presser.

[xxx]

I am sure this has been talked about but I don't have time to look but did Loretta re-sign with us? wasn't his deadline last Friday night.

[Limey]

Berkman also thinks that Chris Burke would be an All-Star if the Astros would just give him a chance.

Lance Berkman was once outwitted by a plastic grocery bag.

[Andyzipp]

LOUD NOISES!!!

I LOVE LAMP!!!

[Jacksonian]

This offense is the best in the division and possibly best in the NL.

2000 team went nowhere too.

[hostros7]

Chances for a sophomore slump for Pence also increase exponentially for Pence when you bat him sixth behind Tejada, Berkman, Lee..imo

[legs_of_eggs]

Offenses do not win championships, or even playoff series.  See Yankees, New York.

See 07 Red Sox?

[Greg M]

Who are the options for the 5th starter right now?  Sampson and Gutierrez? 

[Jacksonian]

Chances for a sophomore slump for Pence also increase exponentially for Pence when you bat him sixth behind Tejada, Berkman, Lee..imo

Agreed.  Wiggy isn't the same kind of protection Berkman is.

[Trey]

Is this why Drayton was so seduced by Tejada:

Miguel Tejada of the Baltimore Orioles won the home run derby on Monday night, defeating Lance Berkman of the Houston Astros, the hometown favorite, with five homers in the third and final round to four for Berkman, before a crowd of 41,754 that included President Bush.

Both players were substitutes, Tejada for Jason Giambi of the Yankees, Berkman for Ken Griffey Jr. of Cincinnati.

Tejada broke two derby records with 15 homers in one round, the second, including a 497-foot blast, and 27 for all three rounds at Minute Maid Park, where the All-Star Game will be played Tuesday night.

The 27th homer enabled Tejada to defeat Berkman with 27 outs to spare. Afterward, Tejada, making his first appearance in the derby, wrapped himself in the flag of his native Dominican Republic.

No.  It's because he's white.

[Jacksonian]

See 07 Red Sox?

They pitched the hell out of the ball.

[legs_of_eggs]

Chances for a sophomore slump for Pence also increase exponentially for Pence when you bat him sixth behind Tejada, Berkman, Lee..imo

Chances for a sophomore slump increase when we add another great offensive bat to the lineup? Not making much sense. Seems to me he'll see more strikes and be up to bat with more guys on base.

[Jacksonian]

Who are the options for the 5th starter right now?  Sampson and Gutierrez? 

I'd say Gutierrez is pretty close to a lock for the rotation.

[MusicMan]

See 07 Red Sox?

The Red Sox gave up the fewest runs in MLB last year.  Try again.

[Towlie]

Oswalt
Wandy
Backe
William
Paulino/ Gutierrez

Closer: Qualls

Set up:

[legs_of_eggs]

They pitched the hell out of the ball.

And hit the hell out it. The Rockies were almost completely dependent on their offense and made it to the Series.

[DVauthrin]

Your future 2/3(Patton), Albers has easily #2 stuff it was just a matter of control, Sarfate has closer stuff, Costanzo has the talent (yet mlb unrealized) to be a starting 3b.

How long are you willing to give albers at the major league level?  He's had multiple shots to prove himself and is erratic every time.   Sarfate could blossom or never pan out do to wildness.   He's a wildcard in this deal.  And costanzo, who knows if he is just a lefty power bat off a bench or an everyday player.

The Astros gave up a lot of guys who need to make big time development strides to stick in the bigs.   Patton hurts and sarfate might along with costanzo/albers if the 3 of them drastically improve, but this is a clear sign they are comfy with wigginton at 3b in the foreseeable future and that the NL is wide open.

[Jacksonian]

Chances for a sophomore slump increase when we add another great offensive bat to the lineup? Not making much sense. Seems to me he'll see more strikes and be up to bat with more guys on base.

Why throw him strikes with Wigginton behind him.  Who'd you rather take your chances with Pence or Wigginton if you're the pitcher?

[Lurch]

See 07 Red Sox?

Why dont you sit out the next few plays

[JackAstro]

See 07 Red Sox?

Beckett
Schilling
Matsuzaka
Lester

Yes, they sucked. Unbelievable that they could win with that rotation in the WS.

[MikeyBoy]

See 07 Red Sox?

You suck at this game.

[Curly]

If we have trouble getting pitchers becuase they don't feel they get the run support, could this be our way of encouraging some pitchers to possibly wave thier clauses in some future trades this winter?  What we are going to use for trade fodder is another question all together, but if perhaps that has been our "lack of wanting to win" attitude as mentioned (complained) by some, is this the FO's attempt and changing that perception?

[legs_of_eggs]

Why throw him strikes with Wigginton behind him.  Who'd you rather take your chances with Pence or Wigginton if you're the pitcher?

Sure, Wigginton, he's a fine enough hitter too I'll take Wigginton up with the bases loaded.

[Limey]

If we have trouble getting pitchers becuase they don't feel they get the run support, could this be our way of encouraging some pitchers to possibly wave thier clauses in some future trades this winter?  What we are going to use for trade fodder is another question all together, but if perhaps that has been our "lack of wanting to win" attitude as mentioned (complained) by some, is this the FO's attempt and changing that perception?

I think the phrase you're looking for is "commitment to winning".  The Astros just jumped a few places in the standings.

[JaneDoe]

See 07 Red Sox?

You gotta be kidding?

[DVauthrin]

Oswalt
Wandy
Backe
William
Paulino/ Gutierrez

Closer: Qualls

Set up:

vilarreal and brocail are the 7th/8th inning guys, with geary a 6th-7th inning pitcher

[Jacksonian]

Sure, Wigginton, he's a fine enough hitter too I'll take Wigginton up with the bases loaded.

Right.  So Pence, a young hitter, gets crap to hit.  That's a recipe for swinging at bad pitches.  Chances for a sophomore slump go up.

[Noe]

Chances for a sophomore slump for Pence also increase exponentially for Pence when you bat him sixth behind Tejada, Berkman, Lee..imo

Good point.  Include in that, what would Wiggington bring on offense hitting #7?  I can see Pence hitting .275 or so, driving in less runs (maybe 70 or so) and scoring less runs than what he had the potential to do in the three spot.  Wiggington's production goes down as well from his usual hitting lower.   But then again, it may not happen that way and much like the loaded lineup of the Mets several years ago when they had Xavier Nady hitting 8th, if the lineup clicks, there would be no drop off from top to bottom.

This will be interesting to follow this year.

I just don't think that pitching is being paid attention to, at the very least in the bullpen.  You can have average to slightly above average starters if you have defense and a rock solid bullpen.  I mean a total shut down pen.  It's been done before.  The late 90s Cardinals, the early aughts Cardinals, the 2007 Rockies all had great defense and had lock down pens to compensate for average starters.  And they had great offense.

This will work for WadeSmith only if the bullpen is lock down and the defense did not take a turn downward.  If I were WadeSmith, I'd look for a bullpen guy who makes them the best bully in the NL Central and eventually in the NL in order to win with this team beyond just compete in the NL Central.  Who you ask?

I dunno.

[jasonact]

Bourn, Matsui, Tejada, Berkman, Lee, Pence, Wigginton, Towles, Oswalt

Holy crap!

I just realized that this projected Opening Day lineup includes exactly three players out of nine (Lee, Berkman, & Oswalt) who were even on the 25-man roster on Opening Day 2007, and Berkman & Oswalt were the only ones on the the 2006 Opening Day roster.

Although I think this move could be very good (or disasterous), this is not the way I'm used to the Astros working.

[legs_of_eggs]

Beckett
Schilling
Matsuzaka
Lester

Yes, they sucked. Unbelievable that they could win with that rotation in the WS.

Crisp, Youkilis, Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Lugo, Drew...They scored 10 runs twice in the series....I agree the Astros could use more pitching, no arguement there, I just think this deal is way worth it for what we gave up. Do you equate Patton or Albers to any of those four pitchers? Hell-f'ing-no-way.

[xxx]

Bourn, Matsui, Tejada, Berkman, Lee, Pence, Wigginton, Towles, Oswalt

Holy crap!

I just realized that this projected Opening Day lineup includes exactly TWO players out of nine (Lee, Berkman, & Oswalt) who were even on the 25-man roster on Opening Day 2007, and Berkman & Oswalt were the only ones on the the 2006 Opening Day roster.

Although I think this move could be very good (or disasterous), this is not the way I'm used to the Astros working.

they are saying Ausmus opening day....

[legs_of_eggs]

Right.  So Pence, a young hitter, gets crap to hit.  That's a recipe for swinging at bad pitches.  Chances for a sophomore slump go up.

So we should not do this deal so that Pence can have a good season hitting in the 3rd spot? Retarded. This lineup just added 30 homers 100rbi and 200 hits. Thats a good thing where I come from.

[Andyzipp]

Chances for a sophomore slump for Pence also increase exponentially for Pence when you bat him sixth behind Tejada, Berkman, Lee..imo

Disagree.  If Pence is going to slump/have growing pains I'd rather him do it at 6 rather than at 3.

[Towlie]

Meh i guess we'll be ok then.

[Trey]

Bourn, Matsui, Tejada, Berkman, Lee, Pence, Wigginton, Towles, Oswalt

Holy crap!

I just realized that this projected Opening Day lineup includes exactly TWO players out of nine (Lee, Berkman, & Oswalt) who were even on the 25-man roster on Opening Day 2007, and Berkman & Oswalt were the only ones on the the 2006 Opening Day roster.

Although I think this move could be very good (or disasterous), this is not the way I'm used to the Astros working.

you should practice counting to two

[JackAstro]

Crisp, Youkilis, Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Lugo, Drew...They scored 10 runs twice in the series....I agree the Astros could use more pitching, no arguement there, I just think this deal is way worth it for what we gave up. Do you equate Patton or Albers to any of those four pitchers? Hell-f'ing-no-way.

You're changing your own argument. You brought up the 07 Sox as a team that won with offense rather than pitching. It was an absurd argument, and it's getting worse as you try to meander around. At what point did we start talking about trading members of the Red Sox rotation for Tejada? Fucking asinine.

[Noe]

Crisp, Youkilis, Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Lugo, Drew...They scored 10 runs twice in the series....I agree the Astros could use more pitching, no arguement there, I just think this deal is way worth it for what we gave up. Do you equate Patton or Albers to any of those four pitchers? Hell-f'ing-no-way.

I think you misunderstood.  If you trade five players, the thing you'd think would be a target would be pitching: Bedard, Santana, Haren, Lincecum, et. al.

Not Tejada.  Hence the head scratching.  It's not that complicated to think that going for offense on this team after you've already done some things to improve and especially in light of pitching needs, is a bit of a perplexing thing.

[Rammer33]

I would think with the addition of Tejada that would provide an opportunity to move Pence to 2. Its been beat to death so my apologies but I think pence would not only benifit tremendously but more importantly the team would. I understand Kaz hitting 2 with the previous lineup (I was not a fan of it but I understand their thinking) but with Tejada in the heart of the order I am not sure I see the advantage.  

[legs_of_eggs]

You're changing your own argument. You brought up the 07 Sox as a team that won with offense rather than pitching. It was an absurd argument, and it's getting worse as you try to meander around. At what point did we start talking about trading members of the Red Sox rotation for Tejada? Fucking asinine.

My point, and thanks for assuming what my points are, was that you need a great offense to win a series or even get there like the 07 Rockies and Red Sox. Parting with Patton and Albers is ok because those guys aren't Schilling Dice-K Lester or Beckett.

[JackAstro]

I would think with the addition of Tejada that would provide an opportunity to move Pence to 2. Its been beat to death so my apologies but I think pence would not only benifit tremendously but more importantly the team would. I understand Kaz hitting 2 with the previous lineup (I was not a fan of it but I understand their thinking).  

Opportunity, sure. But Wade already announced his lineup, and Pence wasn't batting 2nd. So there you go.

[Greg M]

I'd say Gutierrez is pretty close to a lock for the rotation.

Have to admit I don't know a ton about Gutierrez.  Can you give a quick breakdown on him?  His RR numbers aren't all that inspiring.

[jasonact]

you should practice counting to two

dammit. I wrote that before deciding to include the pitcher, and I forgot to change it. Change made.

[Jacksonian]

So we should not do this deal so that Pence can have a good season hitting in the 3rd spot? Retarded. This lineup just added 30 homers 100rbi and 200 hits. Thats a good thing where I come from.

No, but the Pence issue is only one of many.  A number of questions in the lineup and a boatload of questions in the pitching staff.  Adding Tejada, the one guy, isn't going to make this team a World Series contender.  This is only a World Series team if a bunch of the young players have excellent years and good health, esp in the rotation.

[Noe]

I would think with the addition of Tejada that would provide an opportunity to move Pence to 2. Its been beat to death so my apologies but I think pence would not only benifit tremendously but more importantly the team would. I understand Kaz hitting 2 with the previous lineup (I was not a fan of it but I understand their thinking).   

Good point.  Matsui could prove by mid-season to be a #8 hitter and Pence moves up to #2, Wiggington to #6 and Towles to #7.  At least this gives them that opportunity to make such a move if necessary and still keep Matsui's superior defense in play up the middle.

[Rammer33]

Opportunity, sure. But Wade already announced his lineup, and Pence wasn't batting 2nd. So there you go.

yeah saw that - which is why I was suprised

[ThomasTx12]

How's Roger's hammy?

[BUWebguy]

Is it odd that Wade's announcing the lineup instead of Cooper?

[Limey]

I would think with the addition of Tejada that would provide an opportunity to move Pence to 2. Its been beat to death so my apologies but I think pence would not only benifit tremendously but more importantly the team would. I understand Kaz hitting 2 with the previous lineup (I was not a fan of it but I understand their thinking).   

Certainly a possibility if things don't go according to plan.  Might be a good idea, on days when Towles is catching, to bat Kaz behind him at #8 anyway.

[JackAstro]

My point, and thanks for assuming what my points are, was that you need a great offense to win a series or even get there like the 07 Rockies and Red Sox. Parting with Patton and Albers is ok because those guys aren't Schilling Dice-K Lester or Beckett.

Offenses do not win championships, or even playoff series.  See Yankees, New York.

See 07 Red Sox?

Whatever you fucking say.

[MusicMan]

How's Roger's hammy?

"That way lies madness."

[MusicMan]

Is it odd that Wade's announcing the lineup instead of Cooper?

He caveated that he had just talked to Coop.  The point was to put in stone that Tejada stays at SS.

[Rammer33]

Good point.  Matsui could prove by mid-season to be a #8 hitter and Pence moves up to #2, Wiggington to #6 and Towles to #7.  At least this gives them that opportunity to make such a move if necessary and still keep Matsui's superior defense in play up the middle.

yeah its something i think we might see at some point but hopefully we have a 'hitting kaz'. true ... a plus is its a safety valve of sorts if Kaz reverts to some of his NYC ways.

[Limey]

Is it odd that Wade's announcing the lineup instead of Cooper?

I don't think so.  Surely they had some idea of what form the line-up would take when they were thinking about the trade.  It took people in here about 10 seconds to come up with something very close to it - just with Everett at SS (lest we'd forgotten already).

[Noe]

Is it odd that Wade's announcing the lineup instead of Cooper?

Because the deal was on the table for over a week now.  Coop was in on the deal and knew how to fix his lineup if he got Tejada inserted in there.  I wouldn't be surprised if Coop didn't think out loud already with Wade and told him what he'd do with lineup if it included a Miguel Tejada.

No big deal.

[legs_of_eggs]

Whatever you fucking say.

Here's for you: See O7 Red Sox---their offense is incredibly good, probably one of the best 3 in the majors, and it takes this good of an offense to win a world series. If only the 05 Astros had a Tejada...

[Jacksonian]

Have to admit I don't know a ton about Gutierrez.  Can you give a quick breakdown on him?  His RR numbers aren't all that inspiring.

Low 90's fastball with movement.  Ok off-speed stuff that needs to improve.

[jasonact]

How's Roger's hammy?

still irrelevant to the Astros roster.

[Jacksonian]

Here's for you: See O7 Red Sox---their offense is incredibly good, probably one of the best 3 in the majors, and it takes this good of an offense to win a world series. If only the 05 Astros had a Tejada...

No, they just needed Ensberg to be healthy.

[DVauthrin]

Good point.  Include in that, what would Wiggington bring on offense hitting #7?  I can see Pence hitting .275 or so, driving in less runs (maybe 70 or so) and scoring less runs than what he had the potential to do in the three spot.  Wiggington's production goes down as well from his usual hitting lower.   But then again, it may not happen that way and much like the loaded lineup of the Mets several years ago when they had Xavier Nady hitting 8th, if the lineup clicks, there would be no drop off from top to bottom.

This will be interesting to follow this year.

I don't think pence's lineup spot is set in stone, and we could even see a lineup of him 2nd, and matsui 7th on occasion.   Though coop's got to be drooling on his lineup card.

I just don't think that pitching is being paid attention to, at the very least in the bullpen.  You can have average to slightly above average starters if you have defense and a rock solid bullpen.  I mean a total shut down pen.  It's been done before.  The late 90s Cardinals, the early aughts Cardinals, the 2007 Rockies all had great defense and had lock down pens to compensate for average starters.  And they had great offense.

I agree 100% on this, i'm not sure how they address it.    Dotel back in houston as a low risk gamble perhaps?   Mahay, Villone and Affeldt and Miller still available among lefties.   Benitez , Mike Timlin and Bob Wickman also free agents.

This will work for WadeSmith only if the bullpen is lock down and the defense did not take a turn downward.  If I were WadeSmith, I'd look for a bullpen guy who makes them the best bully in the NL Central and eventually in the NL in order to win with this team beyond just compete in the NL Central.  Who you ask?

I dunno.

Again, agree.   I wonder if they plan on getting an inning eater in FA and gamble on a dotel or wickman along with signing a lefty reliever.   

[Astroholic]

Opportunity, sure. But Wade already announced his lineup, and Pence wasn't batting 2nd. So there you go.

I thought it was the coaches responsibility to make out the lineup.


Sorry to fucking slow.

[Noe]

yeah its something i think we might see. a safety valve of sorts if Kaz reverts to some of his NYC ways.

Which can happen, much like last year when Ensberg was penciled into the #5 slot and quickly got shifted around (including #2) into he found his way to the bench.  I'm not saying that Matsui will wind up on the bench, no way.  He'll start at #2 and they'll go from there.

[legs_of_eggs]

Jesus ESPNews is spelling Patton's name wrong while an analyst talks of how badly we got robbed. Oh and Albers throws 96.

[Limey]

No, they just needed Ensberg to be healthy.

EXXXX ACT LEEEEY

Iceberg sucked the bat right out of Berkman's hands.  One timely hit in each of those games, and it's a 4-0 sweep by the Stros.

[MusicMan]

Here's for you: See O7 Red Sox---their offense is incredibly good, probably one of the best 3 in the majors, and it takes this good of an offense to win a world series.

Why didn't the Yankees... with a vastly superior offense.. .make it, then?

06: Tigers - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS
05: Astros - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS
04: Jakes - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS

Noticing a pattern here?

[DVauthrin]

Which can happen, much like last year when Ensberg was penciled into the #5 slot and quickly got shifted around (including #2) into he found his way to the bench.  I'm not saying that Matsui will wind up on the bench, no way.  He'll start at #2 and they'll go from there.

You don't spend 16.5 mil on a guy for him to spend time as a reserve.

[Noe]

Again, agree.   I wonder if they plan on getting an inning eater in FA and gamble on a dotel or wickman along with signing a lefty reliever.   

Since they failed in their attempt to get Pettitte to sign up for 2008, they most certainly would need to get an inning eater from somewhere.  That is why Jennings, if healthy, would still be an option.  But they need a strong bullpen and if they know who and how to do that, great.  It will be interesting to see them pay attention to this now and get stronger for the 2008 campaign.

[Rammer33]

I'm not saying that Matsui will wind up on the bench, no way.  He'll start at #2 and they'll go from there.

I didn't think you were. If Kaz is healthy we'll see him at second even if he's not hitting second - no doubt - and its a good thing in light of this trade to defray some of the defense we'll loose up the middle (although I think tejada's lack of D is a bit over exaggerated).

[Limey]

Why didn't the Yankees... with a vastly superior offense.. .make it, then?

06: Tigers - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS
05: Astros - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS
04: Jakes - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS

Noticing a pattern here?

Yeah.  Each of those teams lost.  They won one WS game between them.

[legs_of_eggs]

Why didn't the Yankees... with a vastly superior offense.. .make it, then?

06: Tigers - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS
05: Astros - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS
04: Jakes - #1 in MLB runs allowed, advance to WS

Noticing a pattern here?

You're right we should have kept Patton and Albers because they make our rotation so elite.

[Noe]

You don't spend 16.5 mil on a guy for him to spend time as a reserve.

Eggszactly.  His defense up the middle is really needed now that AE is gone and perhaps even at shortstop if Miguel moves to third and Wiggington to second out of necessity.  Houston has flexibility in the lineup construction and also on defense now.

[Jacksonian]

Since they failed in their attempt to get Pettitte to sign up for 2008, they most certainly would need to get an inning eater from somewhere.  That is why Jennings, if healthy, would still be an option.  But they need a strong bullpen and if they know who and how to do that, great.  It will be interesting to see them pay attention to this now and get stronger for the 2008 campaign.

Who do they have left to deal for a strong bullpen arm(s)?

[matadorph]

Here's for you: See O7 Red Sox---their offense is incredibly good, probably one of the best 3 in the majors, and it takes this good of an offense to win a world series. If only the 05 Astros had a Tejada...

And where did the Red Sox pitching rank?

[legs_of_eggs]

Yeah.  Each of those teams lost.

Haha i was gonna say that but I think getting there alteast counts for something...right..

[legs_of_eggs]

And where did the Red Sox pitching rank?

And where does their offense rank?

[Limey]

Haha i was gonna say that but I think getting there alteast counts for something...right..

Yep.  I had the peddle to the metal on the sarcmobile for that one.

[Jacksonian]

You're right we should have kept Patton and Albers because they make our rotation so elite.

No.  But, better than it will be now.  And I didn't think this was a World Series contender before this trade either.

[Andyzipp]

You're right we should have kept Patton and Albers because they make our rotation so elite.

Do you get that these are two seperate issues?  You do not have to have a top 5 offense to win in the playoffs.  In fact, I would wager that most championship teams don't.   But there are far, far fewer teams who win big without pitching and defense.

[Rammer33]

Eggszactly.  His defense up the middle is really needed now that AE is gone and perhaps even at shortstop if Miguel moves to third and Wiggington to second out of necessity.  Houston has flexibility in the lineup construction and also on defense now.

I was thinking about that also. I wonder could we see Tejada at 3rd Kaz at short and Wigginton at second. Second might be the only down grade ... who knows - either way your right lots of options and options are a good thing.

[Noe]

You're right we should have kept Patton and Albers because they make our rotation so elite.

Look, for the last time... get it right: *TRADING* Albers and Patton (along with three other players) for an elite pitcher is much more needed than trading for Tejada.  Get it?  It's this that makes the trade a head scratcher.  But since they traded for Tejada, it's a bit preplexing other than perhaps they already knew they had no shortstop to begin with (AE is too hurt) and going for a premiere offensive shortstop is okay.

But pitching was the first order of business and now they have even less chips to deal with to obtain said much, much, much needed elite pitcher.

[MusicMan]

You're right we should have kept Patton and Albers because they make our rotation so elite.

Which has absofuckinglutely NOTHING to do with your contention that the 2007 Red Sox prove your theory that offense wins championships.

Hold on, let me check which of the 13 steps we're on...

[legs_of_eggs]

Do you get that these are two seperate issues?  You do not have to have a top 5 offense to win in the playoffs.  In fact, I would wager that most championship teams don't.   But there are far, far fewer teams who win big without pitching and defense.

 And I would agree, lets go get some pitching. Its a huge need with this team. But I'll do todays trade over and over again. We're not missing much with any of those guys gone and I'll stand by that.

[Noe]

Who do they have left to deal for a strong bullpen arm(s)?

No one, other than Burke and that won't get you much back.

[JackAstro]

 And I would agree, lets go get some pitching. Its a huge need with this team. But I'll do todays trade over and over again. We're not missing much with any of those guys gone and I'll stand by that.

Great, since we agree, who are we supposed to trade for pitching now? Tejada?

[DVauthrin]

Who do they have left to deal for a strong bullpen arm(s)?

I don't think the bullpen arm comes from a trade.   You still have timlin, wickman, benitez, dotel, affeldt, mahay, villone/miller in the FA pool.  I would like a one year gamble on a return of Ducky and one of the lefties.

[legs_of_eggs]

Great, since we agree, who are we supposed to trade for pitching now? Tejada?

Pence, Wigginton, Burke.

[kevwun]

No other team is a having a lot of luck trading for starting pitching right now and a team with a farm system like the Astros' is screwed.  The free agent market for starters sucked on top of it.  I'm sure Ed Wade would love to drastically improve his rotation, but I'm not sure it's possible right now.  Hitting their way in to the playoffs might be the Astros only shot.

[Noe]

 And I would agree, lets go get some pitching. Its a huge need with this team. But I'll do todays trade over and over again. We're not missing much with any of those guys gone and I'll stand by that.

You don't make this trade unless you have no way to get Bedard, Haren, Lincecum, et. al. (which may be the case).  But the *need* on this team is pitching and now they have even less chips to deal with.  IOW - you don't have anything to deal with and you have more offense on a team that really wasn't looking like it needed another masher.

Not to me any way, but then again, who the heck am I?  Nobody, that's who.

[Phil_in_CS]

And I would agree, lets go get some pitching.

If you've got a stash of SP, I'd like to see them. Last time I checked the FA market was small, and we're out of stuff to trade with. And thin on reserves when position players get nicked.

[matadorph]

Great, since we agree, who are we supposed to trade for pitching now? Tejada?

Burke for Bedard.

This is easy...

[MusicMan]

Step 1 - Log in

Step 2 - Post a stupid, unsupportable message

Step 3 - Get hammered for it

See: 07 Red Sox

Step 4 - Come back and say your original message didn't really say what it says, or doesn't say what it appears to everyone else but you it says

Step 5 - Get hammered for it

Check.

Step 6 - Come back and try to defend to original premise, the one you disowned in Step 4

Step 7 - Get hammered for it

In process.

Step 8 - Come back and say you are misunderstood, that you did not say what you said, or mean what you meant... but if you had, you would've been right, anyway. Give evidence to support this.

Step 9 - Get hammered for it

Step 10 - Take the high road, and say 'I am done with this', in a lofty way

Step 11 - Get hammered for it

Step 12 - Come back in (presumably on a lower road) and say, 'Yes I was done with this, but...' and proceed to rehash arguments made in Steps 4, 6, and 8

Step 13 - Get hammered for it

Pending.

[DVauthrin]

Since they failed in their attempt to get Pettitte to sign up for 2008, they most certainly would need to get an inning eater from somewhere.  That is why Jennings, if healthy, would still be an option.  But they need a strong bullpen and if they know who and how to do that, great.  It will be interesting to see them pay attention to this now and get stronger for the 2008 campaign.

FA relievers:  timlin, wickman, dotel, benitez, affeldt, mahay, miller, villone.   FA starters: livan, lohse, silva, lieber, boomer wells, trachsel, armas jr, odalis perez, rodrigo lopez, jennings, garcia, colon.

[subnuclear]

No other team is a having a lot of luck trading for starting pitching right now and a team with a farm system like the Astros's is screwed.  The free agent market for starters sucked on top of it.  I'm sure Ed Wade would love to drastically improve his rotation, but I'm not sure it's possible right now.  Hitting their way in to the playoffs might be the Astros only shot.

This what I think is going on too.   Also, they needed a new shortstop apparently.

[legs_of_eggs]

See: 07 Red Sox

Check.

In process.

Pending.

 We're still on the Red Sox? They have a great offense you do know this?

[DVauthrin]

You don't make this trade unless you have no way to get Bedard, Haren, Lincecum, et. al. (which may be the case).  But the *need* on this team is pitching and now they have even less chips to deal with.  IOW - you don't have anything to deal with and you have more offense on a team that really wasn't looking like it needed another masher.

Not to me any way, but then again, who the heck am I?  Nobody, that's who.

Pence for lincecum or haren perhaps?    It would suck to lose hunter but it's definitely an option.  The giants are pondering rios for lincecum and hunter would be oakland's best hitter right away.

[Limey]

Pence, Wigginton, Burke.

Not Wiggy.  Who's on 3rd?

[legs_of_eggs]

No other team is a having a lot of luck trading for starting pitching right now and a team with a farm system like the Astros' is screwed.  The free agent market for starters sucked on top of it.  I'm sure Ed Wade would love to drastically improve his rotation, but I'm not sure it's possible right now.  Hitting their way in to the playoffs might be the Astros only shot.

Exactly, and for a team who would never rebuild because of Drayton I like this move.

[Jacksonian]

FA relievers:  timlin, wickman, dotel, benitez, affeldt, mahay, miller, villone.   FA starters: livan, lohse, silva, lieber, boomer wells, trachsel, armas jr, odalis perez, rodrigo lopez, jennings, garcia, colon.

Drayton's got a budget, and he just added 12 mil for 08.  How much is left to sign one or more of those guys?  And how many years would you have to give them?

[Noe]

FA relievers:  timlin, wickman, dotel, benitez, affeldt, mahay, miller, villone.   FA starters: livan, lohse, silva, lieber, boomer wells, trachsel, armas jr, odalis perez, rodrigo lopez, jennings, garcia, colon.

Jennings, if healthy and ready to go, is a known inning eater.  Top tier in the NL.  If he'd be willing to come back on a one year plus an option deal, he can ram it up the arse to all those who doubted his value.  He was hurt last year, but the talent and ability to do what a #2 can do for this team is not in doubt in my mind.  That would be the top of my list on a FA starter.

Relievers: (in order of preference) Affeldt, Dotel, Wickman (Timlin re-signed with Boston already).

[MusicMan]

 We're still on the Red Sox? They have a great offense you do know this?

I do know this.  But you seem unwilling/unable to admit that your contention that their offense was the reason they won the championship - despite having the best pitching in all of baseball - is horseshit.

I'd have to say we're firmly in Step 8 right now.

[legs_of_eggs]

Not Wiggy.  Who's on 3rd?

Blum? Loretta? Bring Lamb back? Our guys of value are Burke Wigginton and Pence if its sweet enough.

[MusicMan]

Not Wiggy.  Who's on 3rd?

And if not Pence, then no one is in RF.  So we're back to Burke for Santana/Haren/Kazmir.

[Limey]

FA relievers:  timlin, wickman, dotel, benitez, affeldt, mahay, miller, villone.   FA starters: livan, lohse, silva, lieber, boomer wells, trachsel, armas jr, odalis perez, rodrigo lopez, jennings, garcia, colon.

At times like this, I wish I was Jewish.  Then I could say "Oy, oy, oy" with the correct inflection.

[Noe]

Pence for lincecum or haren perhaps?    It would suck to lose hunter but it's definitely an option.  The giants are pondering rios for lincecum and hunter would be oakland's best hitter right away.

McLane would fire Wade on the spot if he did that.

[MusicMan]

Blum? Loretta? Bring Lamb back? Our guys of value are Burke Wigginton and Pence if its sweet enough.

Please try to understand this.  They've shopped Burke everywhere.  He has, quite literally, no value in trade.

[DVauthrin]

Relievers: (in order of preference) Affeldt, Dotel, Wickman (Timlin re-signed with Boston already).

I thought so on timlin, but mlb.com shows him as unsigned.

[DVauthrin]

McLane would fire Wade on the spot if he did that.

for value, or trading the young fan favorite?    I have to think it's the latter because based on need it makes sense.  Again I was not suggesting he has to go, or even that he would, it just seems to be an option worth exploring.

[JaneDoe]

Is anyone here afraid that Tejada's production will continue to drop off without performance enhancers?

[Limey]

Please try to understand this.  They've shopped Burke everywhere.  He has, quite literally, no value in trade.

FIFY.

[MusicMan]

Is anyone here afraid that Tejada's production will continue to drop off without performance enhancers?

Hell yes.

[legs_of_eggs]

I do know this.  But you seem unwilling/unable to admit that your contention that their offense was the reason they won the championship - despite having the best pitching in all of baseball - is horseshit.

I'd have to say we're firmly in Step 8 right now.

I do think it was their offense. I watched every out of that Series and they got the big hit whenever they needed to. They had 3, 4, and 5 run innings constantly which KILLED the momentum on the Rockies side. Great offense was the reason they won because the pitching was always pitching with a lead. Its harder to get hits when your team is losing likewise its easier to pitch when you have a comfortable lead.

[Noe]

Drayton's got a budget, and he just added 12 mil for 08.  How much is left to sign one or more of those guys?  And how many years would you have to give them?

I have a feeling that the conversation McLane had with WadeSmith while in Poland revolved around the need to make a splash in the winter meeting (soon afterwards, Houston is making a deal for Tejada) and probably signing off on the cost too.  I'm sure that WadeSmith made him aware that the budget would take a hit with such a deal if they still intend to be players in the FA market as well (for pitching).

One would hope so and Wade said as much in the presser, they're still in on some FA starters and relievers.

[Phil_in_CS]

So we're back to Burke for Santana/Haren/Kazmir.

Do it! Trade Burke for those three. I will start my happy dance now.

[DVauthrin]

Drayton's got a budget, and he just added 12 mil for 08.  How much is left to sign one or more of those guys?  And how many years would you have to give them?

I was just listing the names.   I think you could get dotel or wickman on a 1 yr deal.    SP wise maybe lieber, jennings, colon, armas, wells, lopez, perez are short term possibilities contract wise.

[Jacksonian]

for value, or trading the young fan favorite?    I have to think it's the latter because based on need it makes sense.

Lincecum is an unproven commodity.  And, IIRC, has injury questions.  Pence, at least, has produced for about 1 major league year.  But, yeah, golden boy and all.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

I thought so on timlin, but mlb.com shows him as unsigned.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=3146037

[Jacksonian]

I was just listing the names.   I think you could get dotel or wickman on a 1 yr deal.    SP wise maybe lieber, jennings, colon, armas, wells, lopez, perez are short term possibilities contract wise.

Do you have inside info in this regard?  Published reports?

[Noe]

for value, or trading the young fan favorite?    I have to think it's the latter because based on need it makes sense.

Pence is well liked for reasons that McLane and the business side of the Houston Astros understand fully.  They aren't signing off on a baseball pure decision when it involves one of, if not *the*, most marketable player to come along for the Houston Astros since the young Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell.

Lance Berkman is going to be replaced soon as the leader on this club by Pence and he will be the marketable one for McLane much like Biggio and Bagwell were.

No deal.

[MusicMan]

 Great offense was the reason they won because the pitching was always pitching with a lead.

Game 1: Beckett, 7.0 IP, 0 R, 3 H, 3 BB
Game 2: Schilling, 5.1 IP, 1 R, 4 H, 2 BB (offense: 2 runs)
Game 3: Matsuzaka, 5.1 IP, 2 R, 3 H, 3 BB
Game 4: Lester, 5.2 IP, 0 R, 3 H, 3 BB (offense: 2 runs)

Yep... the offense definitely won them the series.

[JaneDoe]

Ok, I guess the next trade that SmithWade will pull is the entire Round Rock roster for Santana.

[MusicMan]

Ok, I guess the next trade that SmithWade will pull is the entire RR roster for Santana.

Nope.  RR roster for Joe Mauer.

[Astroholic]

Ok, I guess the next trade that SmithWade will pull is the entire Round Rock roster for Santana.

Hmmmmmm! That just might work.

[Jacksonian]

Game 1: Beckett, 7.0 IP, 0 R, 3 H, 3 BB
Game 2: Schilling, 5.1 IP, 1 R, 4 H, 2 BB (offense: 2 runs)
Game 3: Matsuzaka, 5.1 IP, 2 R, 3 H, 3 BB
Game 4: Lester, 5.2 IP, 0 R, 3 H, 3 BB (offense: 2 runs)

Yep... the offense definitely won them the series.

You know; I just realized we've been arguing with a racist.  I refuse to go any further.

[DVauthrin]

Lincecum is an unproven commodity.  And, IIRC, has injury questions.  Pence, at least, has produced for about 1 major league year.  But, yeah, golden boy and all.

A highly, highly thought of unproven commodity, he's widely projected as a future ace.  I also know about his injury stuff do to his delivery.    I just don't see other than using pence as bait, how they get a real quality number 2 unless a gamble on a guy in FA pays off big.   I also completely get marketing pence and not trading him as well, and am fine with that.

[Jacksonian]

A highly, highly thought of unproven commodity, he's widely projected as a future ace.  I also know about his injury stuff do to his delivery.    I just don't see other than using pence as bait, how they get a real quality number 2 unless a gamble on a guy in FA pays off big.   I also completely get marketing pence and not trading him as well, and am fine with that.

And now you know why the only shot, a long one, the Astros had at getting a #2 involved dealing some or all of those dealt for Tejada.

[DVauthrin]

Do you have inside info in this regard?  Published reports?

  All I know on dotel is the braves declined his option and he'd like to close but no guarantee he gets a gig.    I think he isn't going to get a multi yr deal with his injury history.   Edit on wickman as I was reading old news where zona signed him last year.   I have to think his age would lead him to a 1 yr deal.   But he might retire as he hasn't been mentioned at all this offseason.

Sorry on the wickman mistake.   I am not privy to inside info, just use mlbtraderumors.com and other sites to get updates around the country.

[DVauthrin]

And now you know why the only shot, a long one, the Astros had at getting a #2 involved dealing some or all of those dealt for Tejada.

well i'd have much rather gotten a number 2 with what they dealt today but perhaps wade didn't like what he was hearing and added a stud bat instead.

[Jacksonian]

well i'd have much rather gotten a number 2 with what they dealt today but perhaps wade didn't like what he was hearing and added a stud bat instead.

I think it's clear that other teams weren't taking what he was offering, and the only chance was to wait and hope.

I still don't think this is a World Series team and therefore a wasted deal.

[David in Jackson]

Pence is well liked for reasons that McLane and the business side of the Houston Astros understand fully.  They aren't signing off on a baseball pure decision when it involves one of, if not *the*, most marketable player to come along for the Houston Astros since the young Craig Biggio and Jeff Bagwell.

Lance Berkman is going to be replaced soon as the leader on this club by Pence and he will be the marketable one for McLane much like Biggio and Bagwell were.

No deal.

Pence is young and a product of the farm system.   Blum, Matsui (?), Loretta, Wiggy, Tejada all are older and/or have their prime years behind them.

[JackAstro]

You know; I just realized we've been arguing with a racist.  I refuse to go any further.

Who's a what now?

[xxx]

has anybody placed Sampson in the rotation or do you think he will be in the bullpen?

[Tralfaz]

I still don't think this is a World Series team and therefore a wasted deal.

Without a solid #2, who would.  I didn't think the '05 team was a WS team either.  Now '04, that's a different story.  But look how that all worked out.  You never know. 

[MikeyBoy]

Who's a what now?

I'll take a shot at it.

[Jacksonian]

I'll take a shot at it.

Yes.  Done.

[Noe]

has anybody placed Sampson in the rotation or do you think he will be in the bullpen?

bullpen.  My understanding is the current baseball braintrust (Coop, Wade and Smith) look at Chris as a long man, spot starter out of the pen.

[Limey]

Without a solid #2, who would.  I didn't think the '05 team was a WS team either.  Now '04, that's a different story.  But look how that all worked out.  You never know. 

See 1998.

[Noe]

well i'd have much rather gotten a number 2 with what they dealt today but perhaps wade didn't like what he was hearing and added a stud bat instead.

Which is fine, because if what Wade was offered in terms of a starter in return for a five player deal like this (Albers, Scott, Patton, Sarfate, Constanzo) wasn't that good, I fear what others think about the Astros prospects.

[Jacksonian]

Without a solid #2, who would.  I didn't think the '05 team was a WS team either.  Now '04, that's a different story.  But look how that all worked out.  You never know. 

To start 05, no.  But with Berkman coming back from injury and the addition of Clemens later, yes.

IMO, this team has WAY too many questions right now both in the pitching and position players to be considered a contender.

[legs_of_eggs]

Where did Nieve go? I loved his slider.

[JackAstro]

I'll take a shot at it.

Oh, real fucking nice.

[legs_of_eggs]

Oh, real fucking nice.

haha sorry but that's still funny to me now

[DVauthrin]

Which is fine, because if what Wade was offered in terms of a starter in return for a five player deal like this (Albers, Scott, Patton, Sarfate, Constanzo) wasn't that good, I fear what others think about the Astros prospects.

well there is a reason the system is thought of in the bottom 10 of all minor league systems right now.   this is just proof.

[Lurch]

"Tejada is scheduled to earn $13 million in 2008 and $13 more in 2009, although he can opt out of his deal after 2008."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5372325.html

[S.P. Rodriguez]

well there is a reason the system is thought of in the bottom 10 of all minor league systems right now.   this is just proof.

and proof that Baltimore's is even worse, I would think...

[MusicMan]

haha sorry but that's still funny to me now

And with this statement... you just became my first poster on "ignore".

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Neyer weighs in, kinda:

Zeke (Portland): Here it is: Two years after he first suggested that he'd benefit from a change of scenery, Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada finally got his wish as he was traded to the Houston Astros today in president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail's boldest move to date. In return for the four-time All-Star, the Orioles will get outfielder Luke Scott, pitchers Matt Albers, Troy Patton and Dennis Sarfate, and third baseman Michael Costanzo

 Rob Neyer: Thanks, Zeke. I like Luke Scott, but I really can't say much about this deal until I look at the other four ex-Astros. Obviously, Tejada could put up some BIG numbers in Houston.

From this chat.

[JackAstro]

haha sorry but that's still funny to me now

Good, I'd rather you be an unrepentant asshole than a disingenuous one. I've never had cause to ignore anyone before now, so congratulations, you're in an elite one-man club. Fuck off.

[Tralfaz]

Put me in, Coach!

Now that's a stacked line-up!

[legs_of_eggs]

And with this statement... you just became my first poster on "ignore".

Come on, lighten up PC police

[legs_of_eggs]

Good, I'd rather you be an unrepentant asshole than a disingenuous one. I've never had cause to ignore anyone before now, so congratulations, you're in an elite one-man club. Fuck off.

It was a f'ing joke, god I didn't even know there were African restaurants. My apologies to anyone offended.

[TheWizard]

I just got back from a camping trip, so I was away from all forms of media for a couple days.  And lucky me, I come back to learn my favorite player, AE, got non-tendered.  And that we traded 5 guys for Miguel Tejada. 

No comment.  I need to read more.  I'll just say if I had to spontaneously write down my opinion, I'd use one of those pissed-off yellow face emoticons.

[Limey]

"Tejada is scheduled to earn $13 million in 2008 and $13 more in 2009, although he can opt out of his deal after 2008."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5372325.html

Thanks for highlighting this.  We (I) hadn't focused on it, but it is a given because he's a veteran player in the midst of the long term deal.

[MusicMan]

Thanks for highlighting this.  We (I) hadn't focused on it, but it is a given because he's a veteran player in the midst of the long term deal.

I thought the new CBA eliminated that provision?

[Limey]

I thought the new CBA eliminated that provision?

Maybe his old contract is grandfathered.  Cot's (already updated with Miggy a 'Stro) says nothing about '09 being an option.

[Dobro]

Jennings, if healthy and ready to go, is a known inning eater.  Top tier in the NL.  If he'd be willing to come back on a one year plus an option deal, he can ram it up the arse to all those who doubted his value.  He was hurt last year, but the talent and ability to do what a #2 can do for this team is not in doubt in my mind. 

For the 76458763th time, Jennings ain't a #2.  Not now, not ever.  No matter how bad the Astros want him to be.

[Noe]

I thought the new CBA eliminated that provision?

It did, although there may be grandfathered contract status for some.  But the reality is that Tejada (under the old CBA) cannot opt out of the contract.  It goes like this (again, under the old CBA):

1. Player that gets traded in the middle of a multi-year contract can ask to be traded at the end of his first year with the new club.
2. If the team refuses to trade the player, the player then becomes a free agent.

Most players used this provision in the old CBA to get new contracts with their new team, usually contract extensions as well.  So at worse, if Houston gets a grandfathered contract that allows Tejada to ask for a trade, they can do one of two things: Trade him or let him walk as a free agent.

I say trade him, especially if he has a monster year and the team does nothing.  What you can get for a superstar as a return (especially one that produces some huge numbers) is incredible nowadays.  So for one year of possible monster production, you could say the Astros turned fringe prospects and possibly one good prospects into possibly really great prospects one winter from now.

Sounds good to me!

[Jacksonian]

It did, although there may be grandfathered contract status for some.  But the reality is that Tejada (under the old CBA) cannot opt out of the contract.  It goes like this (again, under the old CBA):

1. Player that gets traded in the middle of a multi-year contract can ask to be traded at the end of his first year with the new club.
2. If the team refuses to trade the player, the player then becomes a free agent.

Most players used this provision in the old CBA to get new contracts with their new team, usually contract extensions as well.  So at worse, if Houston gets a grandfathered contract that allows Tejada to ask for a trade, they can do one of two things: Trade him or let him walk as a free agent.

I say trade him, especially if he has a monster year and the team does nothing.  What you can get for a superstar as a return (especially one that produces some huge numbers) is incredible nowadays.  So for one year of possible monster production, you could say the Astros turned fringe prospects and possibly one good prospects into possibly really great prospects one winter from now.

Sounds good to me!

Glass half full.  That's the Noe we all know and love.

[Limey]

Half glass full.

FIFY
 - GWB

[jaklewein]

Definitely not pissing on the '08 season...but you have to look ahead to '09 regarding this deal as well.  The entire lineup will stay intact, Roy O will still be around, and I can think of a guy or two who would fit in nicely out of the following SP list.  Alot more pitching on the free agent block in '09 (i.e.  Burnett, Garland, Harden, Lowe, Pedro, Sabathia, Santana, Sheets & Smoltz).  Sure, alot of these guys will disappear, but that's still more than this offseason year.  Hopefully we'll only need one.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2002/02/2008-09-free-agents.html

[Noe]

Glass half full.  That's the Noe we all know and love.

Tejada will flourish in this park and this lineup.  That the Astros are a better team is in doubt.  But I don't doubt a quality bat like Miguel making himself the best free agent bat to hit the market in winter 2008 if Houston had to release him.  They won't, but retain him?  I would think long and hard about what I could get as opposed to what Baltimore felt they could get now.

It's worth the risk to shore up the farm system with some primo prospects by renting Tejada for a year if the team isn't any better.  I'd look for quality young arms (like some talk about Lincecum right now, who knows who will be the next young phenom in winter 2008) to get rid of Tejada if the team goes absolutely nowhere.

I still say it's Pence's team for the long haul... Tejada is a stop gap player who has a chance to do well for himself and the Astros at this point and here is hoping he does.  The team itself?  In doubt, but it should be fun to follow all the way to next off season.

[BUWebguy]

Orioles.com has audio of a conference call with Andy McPhail:
http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071212&content_id=2323492&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

[Jacksonian]

Tejada will flourish in this park and this lineup.  That the Astros are a better team is in doubt.  But I don't doubt a quality bat like Miguel making himself the best free agent bat to hit the market in winter 2008 if Houston had to release him.  They won't, but retain him?  I would think long and hard about what I could get as opposed to what Baltimore felt they could get now.

It's worth the risk to shore up the farm system with some primo prospects by renting Tejada for a year if the team isn't any better.  I'd look for quality young arms (like some talk about Lincecum right now, who knows who will be the next young phenom in winter 2008) to get rid of Tejada if the team goes absolutely nowhere.

I still say it's Pence's team for the long haul... Tejada is a stop gap player who has a chance to do well for himself and the Astros at this point and here is hoping he does.  The team itself?  In doubt, but it should be fun to follow all the way to next off season.

You're assuming another team is going to give up primo prospects for him.  That is not a guarantee.  He's also got to stay healthy.

Santa, I'd like career years for all the Astros starting pitchers in 2008 please.

[MusicMan]

Orioles.com has audio of a conference call with Andy McPhail:
http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071212&content_id=2323492&vkey=news_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

I just got to the question stating that the Astros' system is "considered one of the best out there."

I'm off to clean the Coke out of my keyboard.

[ybbodeus]

I just got to the question stating that the Astros' system is "considered one of the best out there."

I'm off to clean the Coke out of my keyboard.

You can't just sniff it back up?

{EDIT}

Wait, you capitalized coke, didn't you?  Never mind.

[Noe]

You're assuming another team is going to give up primo prospects for him.

 

Yes.

That is not a guarantee.  He's also got to stay healthy.

Yes, true, but if he has a down year and is unhealthy, he won't be asking for a trade at the end of the year either.  My point is if Tejada is asking to be traded, things went well for him and the Astros would be in a very good position to flip him for great prospects.  Bottomline, it would not be a problem to trade Tejada after 2008.  Far from it.

Santa, I'd like career years for all the Astros starting pitchers in 2008 please.

What he said Santa, but if not, then Tejada leads the MVP voting in the NL.  Makes for a really good trading fodder to have that is not named Berkman, Pence, Lee or Oswalt.

[Bench]

 

Yes.

Yes, true, but if he has a down year and is unhealthy, he won't be asking for a trade at the end of the year either.  My point is if Tejada is asking to be traded, things went well for him and the Astros would be in a very good position to flip him for great prospects.  Bottomline, it would not be a problem to trade Tejada after 2008.  Far from it.

What he said Santa, but if not, then Tejada leads the MVP voting in the NL.  Makes for a really good trading fodder to have that is not named Berkman, Pence, Lee or Oswalt.

When speculating about this, you have to take into account that the Astros have very little bargaining power. They have to trade him to a place he wants to go,* or he becomes a free agent and go wherever he wants to go without that team having to give up any prospects.

Obviously, if you get multiple teams vying for his services, the price goes up, but "trade him or lose him for nothing" is not the position that yields top prospects in return.

*Not sure about "where he wants to go" being true, but for some reason I remember some sort of restriction on where a player in that position can be traded.

[Jacksonian]

 

Yes.

Yes, true, but if he has a down year and is unhealthy, he won't be asking for a trade at the end of the year either.  My point is if Tejada is asking to be traded, things went well for him and the Astros would be in a very good position to flip him for great prospects.  Bottomline, it would not be a problem to trade Tejada after 2008.  Far from it.

What he said Santa, but if not, then Tejada leads the MVP voting in the NL.  Makes for a really good trading fodder to have that is not named Berkman, Pence, Lee or Oswalt.

Assuming he asks for a trade after 08.  If not and the Astros don't make it to the World Series by 09 then the trade is a bust.

I'm betting that Patton's, Albers', Costanzo's, and Sarfate's trade value will be higher next year than this year.

[Noe]

When speculating about this, you have to take into account that the Astros have very little bargaining power. They have to trade him to a place he wants to go,* or he becomes a free agent and go wherever he wants to go without that team having to give up any prospects.

Obviously, if you get multiple teams vying for his services, the price goes up, but "trade him or lose him for nothing" is not the position that yields top prospects in return.

*Not sure about "where he wants to go" being true, but for some reason I remember some sort of restriction on where a player in that position can be traded.

He has no say where he can go in this matter, only ask for a trade.  The Astros would be duty bound to trade him.... anywhere they wish.  Tejada could only have a no-trade in such a deal if he were a 10/5 guy and he's not and would not be.

[jaklewein]

Assuming he asks for a trade after 08.  If not and the Astros don't make it to the World Series by 09 then the trade is a bust.

I hate to double up...but I think '09 could be one hell of a year of Tejada hangs around and we have enough money in the bank to sign one of the many SPs that will be on the market.

[Noe]

Assuming he asks for a trade after 08.  If not and the Astros don't make it to the World Series by 09 then the trade is a bust.

If you're a ballplayer, put up monster numbers, get paid 12 million per year when other average players around you in the league are getting 15 per year and owners are spending crazy.... yeah, he'll damn sure ask for a trade in order to try and put Houston in a bargaining position to keep him (for more money) or make a break via free agency.  Damn, if he didn't he be stupid!  And I would trade him (only if the *team* didn't do so well because you still need to build a team when all is said and done).

I'm betting that Patton's, Albers', Costanzo's, and Sarfate's trade value will be higher next year than this year.

Cool.

[Jacksonian]

I hate to double up...but I think '09 could be one hell of a year of Tejada hangs around and we have enough money in the bank to sign one of the many SPs that will be on the market.

IMO, many of the top SP will resign with the club they end the year with.  And, the Astros won't win a bidding war.

[Bench]

He has no say where he can go in this matter, only ask for a trade.  The Astros would be duty bound to trade him.... anywhere they wish.  Tejada could only have a no-trade in such a deal if he were a 10/5 guy and he's not and would not be.

Gotcha. Much obliged.

[DVauthrin]

Assuming he asks for a trade after 08.  If not and the Astros don't make it to the World Series by 09 then the trade is a bust.

I'm betting that Patton's, Albers', Costanzo's, and Sarfate's trade value will be higher next year than this year.

You have a much higher view of these prospects than anyone else i've seen, would you mind explaining why?   I know you follow minor leaguers extensively, so i'm interested in your perspective on these guys.

[Jacksonian]

If you're a ballplayer, put up monster numbers, get paid 12 million per year when other average players around you in the league are getting 15 per year and owners are spending crazy.... yeah, he'll damn sure ask for a trade in order to try and put Houston in a bargaining position to keep him (for more money) or make a break via free agency.  Damn, if he didn't he be stupid!  And I would trade him (only if the *team* didn't do so well because you still need to build a team when all is said and done).

If he performs that well and if he demands a trade then the Astros have to get back better than they gave up to get him.  And those prospects have to be major league ready and better than what the Astros have and not be a first baseman, left fielder, right fielder, or second baseman (unless he's Chase Utley part 2).  Otherwise they admit the deal was a mistake, and they're rebuilding.

[Craig]

And with this statement... you just became my first poster on "ignore".

Ditto. Well, him and Dobro.

[BUWebguy]

IMO, many of the top SP will resign with the club they end the year with.  And, the Astros won't win a bidding war.

Invest that money in ranches!

[jaklewein]

IMO, many of the top SP will resign with the club they end the year with.  And, the Astros won't win a bidding war.

Damn, turn that frown upside down.  

[Jacksonian]

You have a much higher view of these prospects than anyone else i've seen, would you mind explaining why?   I know you follow minor leaguers extensively, so i'm interested in your perspective on these guys.

First, they're all inexperienced at the major league level.  So success at the major league level over a full 2008 season will automatically up their value.  I expect Patton to show he can be a lefty middle of the rotation starter this year.  That will up his trade value because right now he *looks* like he can be that.  Right now Albers can go into the late innings group of a bullpen and be very successful.  If he demonstrates control of his pitches he's a top of the rotation starter.  I expect him to sit at the back end of their bullpen and pile up very nice stats and make himself a desirable closer in the making.  Sarfate has lately demonstrated improved control so, ditto Albers.  So for those 3 guys it's all tied in to my expectation of major league success.  Costanzo is the biggest leap, IMO.  He has to show he's competent at third and that he can hit at a reasonable rate, say .280 or .290.  With his power that kind of success will get people's attention.  From what I've heard about his development he may just do that.

If I'm wrong about them, so be it.

[Jacksonian]

Damn, turn that frown upside down.  

From the list you wrote Santana and Sabathia are the best and there is no way the Astros will outbid the big clubs for them.  Several of the others are currently injury risks.  Will Smoltz even continue?  Will Garland make a difference?  Lowe?

[HurricaneDavid]

Nevermind guys, the whole thing's off.

Tejada traded to Orioles: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071212/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_astros_orioles_trade_9;_ylt=AiGj3SbmWXzi1BUe5pqpngwE1vAI

[Froback]

I think it has been mentioned but I am guessing this was part of the motivation:

Players age 30 or older : Pitchers - 4 (3 more that are 29) Fielders - 7 (8 with Tejada)

I am not sure how old this team is compared to most others, but I am guessing it isn't one of the youngest.

So I am guessing they figured that this was there best shot. Given the age of there core players (Berkman, Lee and Oswalt).  Pence is the only one under 30.

Not saying I agree with this, but I can understand the move.  And I have to admit, I feel better about the deal now, then when I first heard about Patton being involved.

Seems that when work is the slowest, nothing happens and when I am swamped, there is much to discuss... my luck I guess.

[pots]

Not Wiggy.  Who's on 3rd?

If Pence was traded for the coveted pitcher, we could move Berkman to Right and sign Lamb to play first.  Just a thought.  It would give the team a good lefty bat farther down the lineup.

[Andyzipp]

Nevermind guys, the whole thing's off.

Tejada traded to Orioles: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071212/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_astros_orioles_trade_9;_ylt=AiGj3SbmWXzi1BUe5pqpngwE1vAI

I think Baltimore got hosed.  Who gives up 3 young pitchers and 2 young position players for an aging veteran?!?

[jaklewein]

From the list you wrote Santana and Sabathia are the best and there is no way the Astros will outbid the big clubs for them.  Several of the others are currently injury risks.  Will Smoltz even continue?  Will Garland make a difference?  Lowe?

I agree that Santana will be off the market...and Smoltz, well he's going to be a life long Brave, period.  I should not have listed either, my fault.

I think Burnett and Sheets could be #1-type starters.  Both teams have an abundance of starting pitching so I'm not sure either will be hell bent on resigning them (I think I remember reading both teams have good young pitching in the minors to back up what's already at the MLB level, would have to double up on that though).  

Do you really think that Drayton would put the skids on a high dollar SP?  For years I'd of been right there with you.  I'm not so sure now.  

[jaklewein]

Seems that when work is the slowest, nothing happens and when I am swamped, there is much to discuss... my luck I guess.

Isn't that that truth!  I'm either busy as a beaver at work or out of town...far, far away from the internet.

[Jacksonian]

I agree that Santana will be off the market...and Smoltz, well he's going to be a life long Brave, period.  I should not have listed either, my fault.

I think Burnett and Sheets could be #1-type starters.  Both teams have an abundance of starting pitching so I'm not sure either will be hell bent on resigning them (I think I remember reading both teams have good young pitching in the minors to back up what's already at the MLB level, would have to double up on that though).  

Do you really think that Drayton would put the skids on a high dollar SP?  For years I'd of been right there with you.  I'm not so sure now.  

Burnett and Sheets are major injury risks.

Drayton may pay for them, but he'll run the risk they won't be on the field.  And, it's highly likely they won't.

[kevwun]

Sheets can't stay healthy, which means he will probably sign an insanely large free agent deal.

[ThomasTx12]

I'm not sure if the stake into the Pence-Lincecum deal speculation could be driven in any further, but reportedly Lincecum, along with Matt Cain, are off the market after the Rowand signing.

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071212.wspt-rios1212/GSStory/GlobeSportsBaseball/home

[austro]

Do you really think that Drayton would put the skids on a high dollar SP?  For years I'd of been right there with you.  I'm not so sure now. 

I don't think it's the per-year dollars that will keep Drayton out of the mix. It's the fact that those guys are going to be angling for 5- to 7-year deals, or something like that. That's just too risky for pitching, and Drayton will be correct to stay out of those kinds of deals. But some idiot somewhere will do it.

[Noe]

If he performs that well and if he demands a trade then the Astros have to get back better than they gave up to get him.  And those prospects have to be major league ready and better than what the Astros have and not be a first baseman, left fielder, right fielder, or second baseman (unless he's Chase Utley part 2).  Otherwise they admit the deal was a mistake, and they're rebuilding.

Okay, but all I'm saying is that trading Tejada at the end of '08 is not a bad thing.  Are you okay?

[xxx]

I have always liked Brandon Webb how long is his contract? I wanted him years ago and people told me I was crazy

[BUWebguy]

Here's a potentially interesting twist (taken with a grain of salt from Keith Law and the free part of an ESPN Insider post):

he's a hitter in decline -- his listed age is 31, and several front-office executives have told me they believe that number is low

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3152154&name=law_keith&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3152154%26name%3dlaw_keith

[Bench]

I have always liked Brandon Webb how long is his contract? I wanted him years ago and people told me I was crazy

Burke and who do you recommend?

[xxx]

I don't know I was just throwing a name out there. That's why I asked what kind of contract he was under. Ya'll were talking about the 09 sp line up. I just threw his name out there. but I would love to have him on the team.

[kevwun]

Age questions are a given with just about any player from the Dominican Republic, although it's gotten harder to get by with forged birth certificates since 9/11.

[Froback]

Not saying Tejada is not in decline, but that is kind of like saying Berkman is a hitter in decline, because I think (have not officially checked though) that both declined in offensive numbers by about the same amount from 06 to 07.

[Bench]

I don't know I was just throwing a name out there. That's why I asked what kind of contract he was under. Ya'll were talking about the 09 sp line up. I just threw his name out there. but I would love to have him on the team.

Any other recent cy young winners that you would love to have on the team?

[xxx]

most of the pitchers mentioned above

[Jacksonian]

Okay, but all I'm saying is that trading Tejada at the end of '08 is not a bad thing.  Are you okay?

Oh, I'm fine.  I just think this deal wrecked the Astros for even longer than they would have been before.  They've dealt 2 of the top 5 prospects in the system plus 2 guys who look like they can be major league closers for a big time hitter but IMO will still not come close to the World Series.  I'm seeing 2000 all over again.  And, I really think those guys will have even greater value next winter.  That is when I expected to see a major deal, not this year.

Duman and I have been talking about the top 10 article recently.  You have no idea how bad the system is.  When you see our top 10/20 and others you will hopefully see that.  The Astros simply cannot afford to deal any prospects at the wrong moment.  I think that just happened.  I'm afraid the Astros are now the National League version of the Orioles.  I hope to heaven I'm wrong.

[dirty steve]

Any other recent cy young winners that you would love to have on the team?

how about CY Young himself?  his rubber arm could probably slot as our #2 and #4 starter and long man in the bully on his days off.

[MusicMan]

Duman and I have been talking about the top 10 article recently.  You have no idea how bad the system is.  When you see our top 10/20 and others you will hopefully see that.  The Astros simply cannot afford to deal any prospects at the wrong moment.  I think that just happened.  I'm afraid the Astros are now the National League version of the Orioles.  I hope to heaven I'm wrong.

The only solace I take is this:

The system was going to take 4 years, minimum, to rebuild.  They have to do something to compete during that time, b/c Drayton won't accept rebuilding at the MLB level.

This means WadeSmith better be ready with some short-term, high-$ contracts.

[BUWebguy]

Not saying Tejada is not in decline, but that is kind of like saying Berkman is a hitter in decline, because I think (have not officially checked though) that both declined in offensive numbers by about the same amount from 06 to 07.

Wow - I was all ready to strongly argue against that, and then I checked the numbers:
Tejada -- .330/.379/.498 to .296/.357/.442 -- drops of .024/.022/.056
Berkman -- .315/.420/.621 to .278/.386/.510 -- drops of .037/.034/.111

[Noe]

Oh, I'm fine.  I just think this deal wrecked the Astros for even longer than they would have been before.  They've dealt 2 of the top 5 prospects in the system plus 2 guys who look like they can be major league closers for a big time hitter but IMO will still not come close to the World Series.  I'm seeing 2000 all over again.  And, I really think those guys will have even greater value next winter.  That is when I expected to see a major deal, not this year.

Duman and I have been talking about the top 10 article recently.  You have no idea how bad the system is.  When you see our top 10/20 and others you will hopefully see that.  The Astros simply cannot afford to deal any prospects at the wrong moment.  I think that just happened.  I'm afraid the Astros are now the National League version of the Orioles.  I hope to heaven I'm wrong.

So why would you react adversely at the potential of trading Tejada for prospects at the end of 2008?  I would think that would be a good thing?

[ybbodeus]

I think Baltimore got hosed.  Who gives up 3 young pitchers and 2 young position players for an aging veteran?!?

Wait....I know this one.  Isiah Thomas?

[Noe]

The only solace I take is this:

The system was going to take 4 years, minimum, to rebuild.  They have to do something to compete during that time, b/c Drayton won't accept rebuilding at the MLB level.

This means WadeSmith better be ready with some short-term, high-$ contracts.

Yeah, for 2008 I would agree.  Something tells me this is the last shot before they clean house and consider no one untouchable and start to rebuild in the next offseason.  Coupled with a potential good draft next year, the Astros could remake the farm next offseason with some fine prospects and near major leaguers.  Better than Patton?  Perhaps, but for now, to get Tejada and give themselves an outside chance of a NL Central and maybe more, they can't rebuild fast enough for the owner to sign off on it and think he's not going to have a down year at the gate and every other revenue generation avenue.

The Orioles have generations of following, as do others like the Cubs, et. al.  Houston does not, they have fickle fans that the owner unfortunately listens to.  That is part of the reason you no longer have fan non-favorites Purpura, Garner, Lidge and now Adam Everett gone.

He's running a business and if doggoneit they're going to give it one more try at a competitive season and an outside chance of a ring while keeping the turnstiles turning, this is how you operate.

After 2008, something tells me all bets are off and no one is safe unless they have no-trade clauses.

[Froback]

Oh, I'm fine.  I just think this deal wrecked the Astros for even longer than they would have been before.  They've dealt 2 of the top 5 prospects in the system plus 2 guys who look like they can be major league closers for a big time hitter but IMO will still not come close to the World Series.  I'm seeing 2000 all over again.  And, I really think those guys will have even greater value next winter.  That is when I expected to see a major deal, not this year.

Duman and I have been talking about the top 10 article recently.  You have no idea how bad the system is.  When you see our top 10/20 and others you will hopefully see that.  The Astros simply cannot afford to deal any prospects at the wrong moment.  I think that just happened.  I'm afraid the Astros are now the National League version of the Orioles.  I hope to heaven I'm wrong.

I know I am derailing the subject but...

The Astros prospect list is terrible, I know.  But if they didn't do this deal, is the team really better off?  I mean, sure they have a few more prospects on their list than after the deal, but the idea behind having a good system is to do one of two things, one: give you a pipeline of players to help you make your club better and two: give you trade chips for deals.  Now the Astros have less to do those things, but then while I like the potential of some of those guys, I am not sure if any of them would have produced more than some other guys that are still in the system.

I think Patton is the biggest loss, because he really seemed to be everything you would want in a pitcher coming up.  No he wasn't going to be an ace most likely, but he had everything to be a solid ML starter, and looked to be really close to showing that.  Albers I think, had his chance in 07 and couldn't pull it off.  When Nieve went down and he was given several starts to grab that rotation/roster spot, he just couldn't seem to put it all together.  I think he still has the chance to do what Wandy did, but the Astros didn't seem to be as willing to give him the opportunities that they gave Wandy.  So he rates as the 2nd biggest loss.  Sarfate kind of pulled a Pence when coming to Houston in that he did stuff he never showed the ability to do before, exercise strike zone control.  He might be something pretty special, but then Mil gave him up for virtually nothing, so then again he might not.  Losing Scott hurts only because he was a trade chip, and good insurance policy in case of OF injury, but then losing him doesn't really hurt the teams future, because he wasn't going to be a big player in that as much more than a trade chip.  And the new 3B kids, well...  He MIGHT be the next Ryan Howard, but then he MIGHT also be the next Crash Davis.

So I am not sure how I feel about this trade, because it was a ton to give up for just 1 player.  I think everything rides on the type of season Tejada has.  Trade or no trade at the end of 08.  There are several more pitchers who are close to being able to "attempt" to contribute, because the Astros pitching talent was starting to build up at the AAA level to the point where someone needed to "put up or shut up".  I felt it was likely there would be some deals this season (big or small) because of it.  Just seemed like too many guys who all looked the same, in that they looked close, but not sure if they were ready.  Now there is more room, which in some cases might be better, because now there is not the same pressure to show us now or never, like I think Albers was forced into.

For some that change might be good, for others it might not, but I think the organization needed to do something about that glut that was forming.  And while I would have preferred keeping Albers and Patton, at least they made a choice.  Which is better than what the club seemed to be doing previously, which was an inability to choose, which resulted in lots of guys yo-yo-ing.  I would prefer to see them make a choice and stick with it, and if it fails, cut bait and move to the next.  But at least give the guys a true shot, not this 2 starts and then move on stuff.

Crap, now I am rambling.  I guess what I wanted to say is that the club needed to address the minor league system before the trade and they still need to address it after, but the only way this club was going to do that (in either case) was via the draft, and this trade should not negatively affect that.  And to say the loss of the players is going to hurt the Astros long term, I guess it all depends on what you call long term.  And it also assumes the other players who are close to being ML ready, don't step up and fill that void.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

The Orioles have generations of following, as do others like the Cubs, et. al.  Houston does not, they have fickle fans that the owner unfortunately listens to.  That is part of the reason you no longer have fan non-favorites Purpura, Garner, Lidge and now Adam Everett gone.

Noe, do you really think that the decision to non-tender AE was based on PR and fan perception, the injury uncertainty, or some combination of both?  Because I'm not sure I buy the fan argument; if they were going to cut him loose to pick up a SS with a bigger bat, you'd think they would've done it long enough ago that they could've gotten something back for Everett.

Also, do we get compensation picks for players who are non-tendered?

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Does this strike anyone else as a weird, reverse Glenn Davis deal?  Didn't Houston get Harnish, Schilling, and Finley?  I'm not saying this works out the same way.  Only that I found it interesting.

[dirty steve]

Also, do we get compensation picks for players who are non-tendered?

i think we only get compensation if arbitration is offered.

[Noe]

Noe, do you really think that the decision to non-tender AE was based on PR and fan perception, the injury uncertainty, or some combination of both?

More on injury.  Waaaay more about the injury.

Because I'm not sure I buy the fan argument; if they were going to cut him loose to pick up a SS with a bigger bat, you'd think they would've done it long enough ago that they could've gotten something back for Everett.

They tried to trade for Tejada in offseason 2006 and then again at the trading deadline 2006.  AE is not a fan favorite and McLane knows how to run a business.  The appreciation for AE's contribution to winning baseball is lost to many a fan, even many in here who tend to look into their magic slide rules to value a player.  McLane listens to these clowns and it resonates with him quite a bit.

I think AE getting injured just iced it for them this offseason because he even mentioned the possibility of being non-tendered well before Miguel Tejada hit the radar once again (after a long distance call from the owner whilest in Poland).  Coincidinky?  Maybe, but then again... maybe not.

Also, do we get compensation picks for players who are non-tendered?

No, only those you offer arbitration to.

[MusicMan]

Does this strike anyone else as a weird, reverse Glenn Davis deal? 

This is worse than anything I brought up in the "Houston disappointments" thread.  If Tejada=Davis, then this franchise is well and truly screwed.

[kevwun]

And while I would have preferred keeping Albers and Patton, at least they made a choice.  Which is better than what the club seemed to be doing previously, which was an inability to choose, which resulted in lots of guys yo-yo-ing.  I would prefer to see them make a choice and stick with it, and if it fails, cut bait and move to the next.  But at least give the guys a true shot, not this 2 starts and then move on stuff.

I agree with this completely and you can bet Wade knows it's a part of why he has a new job.

[Froback]

I agree with this completely and you can bet Wade knows it's a part of why he got the job.

REALLY?  Crap I must have missed that part in the Press Conference when Wade got the job.  Hmm, maybe that is where I got the idea from...

[mihoba]

I think everything rides on the type of season Tejada has. 

After thinking about this for a few hours, and reading that Tejada was happy that he was going to a contender, it's possible that he will be in shape, focused, and really mash his first year in the NL. He doesn't strike out that much, and before last year he was as durable as they come.

There, my brick colored glasses are working even during the void.

[TheWizard]

Oh, I'm fine.  I just think this deal wrecked the Astros for even longer than they would have been before.  They've dealt 2 of the top 5 prospects in the system plus 2 guys who look like they can be major league closers for a big time hitter but IMO will still not come close to the World Series.  I'm seeing 2000 all over again.  And, I really think those guys will have even greater value next winter.  That is when I expected to see a major deal, not this year.

Duman and I have been talking about the top 10 article recently.  You have no idea how bad the system is.  When you see our top 10/20 and others you will hopefully see that.  The Astros simply cannot afford to deal any prospects at the wrong moment.  I think that just happened.  I'm afraid the Astros are now the National League version of the Orioles.  I hope to heaven I'm wrong.

I don't know the minor league system as well as you do so I am not as familiar with the type of depth there is, but I dislike the deal for the same reason.  Its not necessarily about Tejada.  I understand he plays a sub-par defense, but he could pull his weight by taking advantage offensively of our short porch.

But it really seems like we compromised the future of the farm system.   A move like this gives the feel that the team is going all-out for the pennant this season, in a "win now" type way.  That is fine.. but the team still has glaring weaknesses which don't support that.  If we had shored up the rotation, then made this move, I'd feel differently.  But we made this move, and seemingly don't have SP help on the way.  The offseason isn't over, so who knows what is over the hill. 

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Thanks, Noe.  I know that Unca Drayton is a pragmatist, but it would really, reeeeeally disappoint me if one of his baseball guys didn't fight for keeping Everett if it were reasonable to expect a comeback year.

I like the offensive addition that Miggy brings, and while his range may not be what AE's was, he's got a cannon for an arm that could make up for it.  As always, color me optimistic.

Also, with regard to the '08 free agent class: just mark the top 3-4 guys who would actually hit the market off (for the Yanks, Sawx, and Dodgers/Mets/Tigers/Cubs) and you've got the real pool that the Astros would fish from.

[Noe]

A move like this gives the feel that the team is going all-out for the pennant this season, in a "win now" type way.

Welcome to the Houston Astros, the owner is that man right over there, his name is Drayton McLane and you just got a front row seat view of how he operates.  Thank you, and pick up you complimentary season ticket renewal packet on your way out.

Perception of being a contender is much more the norm for McLane than anything else.  He will never "rebuild" as long as he's the owner.  A GM and others around him that run the baseball side of the team better be sharp enough to understand you re-tool, never re-build, this team while maintaining a healthy enough farm system to plug in the holes you have with a budget conscious organization.

Meaning, Wade doesn't have the right to re-build right now, but he also doesn't have a huge farm system to work from either.  He has to do both to make up for huge draft problems in the last few years with failure after failure of draft picks panning out.  Basically, Ed Wade was also chosen because he has a history of making good picks in the draft (Utley, Howard, Hamels, et. al.).  He is supposed to do the same here, while he re-tools.

Never re-build, not as long as Drayton McLane owns this club.

[Andyzipp]

Welcome to the Houston Astros, the owner is that man right over there, his name is Drayton McLane and you just got a front row seat view of how he operates.  Thank you, and pick up you complimentary season ticket renewal packet on your way out.

Perception of being a contender is much more the norm for McLane than anything else.  He will never "rebuild" as long as he's the owner.  A GM and others around him that run the baseball side of the team better be sharp enough to understand you re-tool, never re-build, this team while maintaining a healthy enough farm system to plug in the holes you have with a budget conscious organization.

Meaning, Wade doesn't have the right to re-build right now, but he also doesn't have a huge farm system to work from either.  He has to do both to make up for huge draft problems in the last few years with failure after failure of draft picks panning out.  Basically, Ed Wade was also chosen because he has a history of making good picks in the draft (Utley, Howard, Hamels, et. al.).  He is supposed to do the same here, while he re-tools.

Never re-build, not as long as Drayton McLane owns this club.

They picked up a piece that (should the gamble work) will potentially gain them more pieces, either this summer, or in the 08 offseason.

Obviously, there was no starting pitching to be had via trade with that group. 

And the Everett thing had nothing to do with fan perception now.  It was the potential fan perception of Everett still hitting ~.230 and no longer having the range to justify playing.  Certain folks on the team feel that the ceiling for post injust Everett is Tim Bogar.

[Noe]

They picked up a piece that (should the gamble work) will potentially gain them more pieces, either this summer, or in the 08 offseason.

Right, the Astros might be sellers at the trading deadline and could harvest a nice return if Tejada is hitting well enough to be spun off in a trade.

Obviously, there was no starting pitching to be had via trade with that group.

I mentioned it in one thread, but the fact that the Astros spun five guys out in a trade and the get back was *NOT* a starting pitcher may speak to the prospects Houston had to spin out more than anything else. 

And the Everett thing had nothing to do with fan perception now.  It was the potential fan perception of Everett still hitting ~.230 and no longer having the range to justify playing.  Certain folks on the team feel that the ceiling for post injured Everett is Tim Bogar.

Eggszactly.

[Jacksonian]

So why would you react adversely at the potential of trading Tejada for prospects at the end of 2008?  I would think that would be a good thing?

Because a)you've put off rebuilding for a year for basically nothing and b)who are the prospects?  Can't possibly know so they are a nothing.

[rambo2]

This team will score a bunch of runs.  They should contend for the division.  It looks like Burke will be the next to go or he will be a bench player.

I hope Scott gets a chance to play for the Orioles.

[Noe]

Because a)you've put off rebuilding for a year for basically nothing and b)who are the prospects?  Can't possibly know so they are a nothing.

Rebuilding is not a word the owner understands... right now.

[Don]

Who fills the leadership vacuum caused by the departure of Everett?

Lots of new faces and the old ones (that's you Mr. Berkman) don't appear up to the task.

[coop]

Rebuilding is not a word the owner understands... right now.

Considering that he is his 70's, I can't fault him either if the term "rebuilding" is not part of his vocabulary.  

[Jacksonian]

Rebuilding is not a word the owner understands... right now.

Right so dealing Tejada for prospects makes no sense.

[Noe]

Considering that he is his 70's, I can't fault him either if the term "rebuilding" is not part of his vocabulary. 

Rebuilding is for his kids to do when he hands over the reigns and they can afford the days of empty seats at the MMPUS.  McLane isn't going to go through that.

[Noe]

Right so dealing Tejada for prospects makes no sense.

I'm not sure I understand nor am communicating anything well enough today for you.  Let's just drop it and say I'm wrong and your right and be done with it.  Although I don't really know if I'm saying anything contrary to you or not.  I know the Astros were concerned about Adam Everett, the owner is a win now owner and that lead to finally reaching this Tejada deal.  It's understandable how this happened and they have the right to go with less prospects and more deals like this if the owner is going to have this attitude and they acknowledge (including Ed Wade at the press conference) that rebuilding isn't what they're trying to do and winning in 2008 is.

thanks...

[pravata]

There I was, taking a break from shopping with a lunch of oysters and crawfish, and the waitress says, "the Astros should have a good lineup next season".  "Uh, what?" I says with the front end of a crawfish in my mouth, surprised that the waitress cares about the Astros, cares enough to suddenly tell me about their lineup, and further surprised by the slow feeling of dread creeping across my scalp.  "Yeah they made a trade for Tejada today".  Sonofa BITCH, I think, "huh", I say.

[Jacksonian]

I'm not sure I understand nor am communicating anything well enough today for you.  Let's just drop it and say I'm wrong and your right and be done with it.  Although I don't really know if I'm saying anything contrary to you or not.  I know the Astros were concerned about Adam Everett, the owner is a win now owner and that lead to finally reaching this Tejada deal.  It's understandable how this happened and they have the right to go with less prospects and more deals like this if the owner is going to have this attitude and they acknowledge (including Ed Wade at the press conference) that rebuilding isn't what they're trying to do and winning in 2008 is.

thanks...

Aww, c'mon.  I actually agree with everything you just said.

I think we differ in our view of the consequences and in that area I'll agree with you to agree to disagree, but don't just assume I'm right because I hope I'm wrong.

[Jose Cruz III]

Who do they have left to deal for a strong bullpen arm(s)?

Money

[ThomasTx12]

Money

They might not even have that.

[Jacksonian]

Money

The question in regards to FA relievers isn't the money but the years.

[Jose Cruz III]

Look, for the last time... get it right: *TRADING* Albers and Patton (along with three other players) for an elite pitcher is much more needed than trading for Tejada.  Get it?  It's this that makes the trade a head scratcher.  But since they traded for Tejada, it's a bit preplexing other than perhaps they already knew they had no shortstop to begin with (AE is too hurt) and going for a premiere offensive shortstop is okay.

But pitching was the first order of business and now they have even less chips to deal with to obtain said much, much, much needed elite pitcher.

But could the 5 guys that was traded today brought an elite pitcher? It could be that they needed a shortstop and found one that could hit a ton and thought they could probably fill the rotation from the FA market. If it took this to get a guy the Orioles wanted to trade, then what would it have taken to get Bedard? ESPN is reporting that they are asking the Reds for Homer Bailey and several more of their best prospects. The Astros just don't seem to have the prospects to land an elite pitcher. And whoever thought Burke and Scott would bring one was in a pipe dream. WadeSmith might have overpaid for Tejada but a couple of decent pitching prospects, a 3b we didn't even have a month ago, an OF who had lost his spot, and a wild relief pitcher don't seem like the end of the world to me. Especially with Jennings, Colon, Clement, Garcia, Livan, and a couple of others out there that could eat some innings.

[JackAstro]

There I was, taking a break from shopping with a lunch of oysters and crawfish, and the waitress says, "the Astros should have a good lineup next season".  "Uh, what?" I says with the front end of a crawfish in my mouth, surprised that the waitress cares about the Astros, cares enough to suddenly tell me about their lineup, and further surprised by the slow feeling of dread creeping across my scalp.  "Yeah they made a trade for Tejada today".  Sonofa BITCH, I think, "huh", I say.

Welcome. See if you can find a handy entry point to replying, there's lots to work with.

[JaneDoe]

Don't stop now, only 92 more posts to go to pass "World Baseball Classic to be Cancelled?".

[Bench]

Welcome. See if you can find a handy entry point to replying, there's lots to work with.

Here's a fun place to start:

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104551.msg171470#msg171470

[JackAstro]

Wade settled it, by the way:

Do the Astros simply hope to outscore the opposition?

"It's a dangerous proposition," Wade said. "There's a lot of teams that have tried to follow that formula, just pounding teams into submission. You need to pitch, you need to play defense."

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071212&content_id=2324100&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

[juliogotay]

Don't stop now, only 92 more post to go to pass "World Baseball Classic to be Cancelled?".

What? is this for real?

[Jose Cruz III]

There I was, taking a break from shopping with a lunch of oysters and crawfish, and the waitress says, "the Astros should have a good lineup next season".  "Uh, what?" I says with the front end of a crawfish in my mouth, surprised that the waitress cares about the Astros, cares enough to suddenly tell me about their lineup, and further surprised by the slow feeling of dread creeping across my scalp.  "Yeah they made a trade for Tejada today".  Sonofa BITCH, I think, "huh", I say.

Do you think it is possible that WadeSmith checked the board today, saw you were missing, and decided that "today is the day"?

[Duman]

the Baltimore Sun is asking it's readers

Did the Orioles get enough from the Astros for Miguel Tejada?

31.4% said no.

[Jose Cruz III]

the Baltimore Sun is asking it's readers  31.4% said no.

But keep in mind their twisted media was reporting not long ago we were giving them Oswalt for him.

[jasonact]

the Baltimore Sun is asking it's readers  31.4% said no.

That's because the average fan doesn't have clue who the prospects are for other teams (or even their own team). Troy Patton might as well be Troy McClure to them. Most of them are saying, "We traded Miggy for who?" I hope Tejada makes this deal look like the Astros made out on top, but right now, it seems pretty even to me. Baltimore comes out on top, though, if Tejada remains in 2007 form and Patton fulfills expectations.

ETA: Scratch that. I misread your post: 31.4% say that they didn't get enough for Tejada, meaning that 68.6% thought they made out well. Well good for them, but that blows my theory out of the water.

[kevwun]

The Orioles want Bailey, Josh Hamilton and others for Bedard.  It would have taken Pence and Patton to even get in to the discussion.

[jasonact]

That's because the average fan doesn't have clue who the prospects are for other teams (or even their own team). Troy Patton might as well be Troy McClure to them. Most of them are saying, "We traded Miggy for who?" I hope Tejada makes this deal look like the Astros made out on top, but right now, it seems pretty even to me. Baltimore comes out on top, though, if Tejada remains in 2007 form and Patton fulfills expectations.

ETA: Scratch that. I misread your post: 31.4% say that they didn't get enough for Tejada, meaning that 68.6% thought they made out well. Well good for them, but that blows my theory out of the water.

Although here's one disgruntled fan comment from the same article:

Awesome ... a 29-year-old 4th outfielder, a guy who can't throw strikes, a 4A slugger who strikes out too much, a starter with an ERA near 6 and a WHIP of 1.4 ... and the crown jewel - a projected 4th starter with bad mechanics and an injury history.

Dude's obviously a glass-half-empty kind of guy.

[pravata]

Welcome. See if you can find a handy entry point to replying, there's lots to work with.

My first, unvoiced reaction, even before I knew they traded  Patton away was sunuva BITCH. Mclane said early on that they didn't need to sign any like Lee this season.  Smith trotted out the pitching and defense line.  Wade trades away Lidge for a good fielding centerfielder, he bypasses Iguchi for the better fielding Matsui.  The Astros said they had a plan. Then they pull this string.  I don't really care about Tejada's option for 09, he's going to use it.  He complained about being on the Orioles the whole time he was there.  He'll go for the money.  I don't really know about the package either.  We've seen too many pitchers that we thought would be in the rotation fade away.  Is Patton injured?  Is Everett?  I have no idea.  I only know that I heard the Astros had a plan.  Just like they had one last year.  This trade seems to abandon the plan.  So I'm stuck with what I said out loud, and it's the only reaction I can think of right now, and that's "huh".

[JackAstro]

My first, unvoiced reaction, even before I knew they traded  Patton away was sunuva BITCH. Mclane said early on that they didn't need to sign any like Lee this season.  Smith trotted out the pitching and defense line.  Wade trades away Lidge for a good fielding centerfielder, he bypasses Iguchi for the better fielding Matsui.  The Astros said they had a plan. Then they pull this string.  I don't really care about Tejada's option for 09, he's going to use it.  He complained about being on the Orioles the whole time he was there.  He'll go for the money.  I don't really know about the package either.  We've seen too many pitchers that we thought would be in the rotation fade away.  Is Patton injured?  Is Everett?  I have no idea.  I only know that I heard the Astros had a plan.  Just like they had one last year.  This trade seems to abandon the plan.  So I'm stuck with what I said out loud, and it's the only reaction I can think of right now, and that's "huh".

Yeah, that's about how I felt. Even after the trade, Wade's still telling us about pitching and defense. Pitching, speed, defense. They traded the first to take a step back from the other two. Not sure how that works, but I guess I'll just watch and figure it out later.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

There's still enough time between now and March to pick up more pitching, even though the options out there are admittedly stop-gap at best.  We still have Bourn, Matsui, Brocail, and everyone else we've acquired since the season ended save Costanzo.  Three steps forward, half a step back, I think.  For all the hype, I was really unsure of how much Patton was going to contribute this year.  If I'm pissed about anything, it's Sarfate, but I have a thing for fireballers who can pitch in the 8th.

[Arky Vaughan]

Don't stop now, only 92 more post to go to pass "World Baseball Classic to be Cancelled?".

That might be worth trying to achieve, but for now I'm keeping quiet.

[Arky Vaughan]

That might be worth trying to achieve, but for now I'm keeping quiet.

Also, this one is the longest actual baseball thread. The WBC thread digressed a bit, if I recall.

[BizidyDizidy]

Also, this one is the longest actual baseball thread. The WBC thread digressed a bit, if I recall.

What I haven't heard anyone say really address is:

If you were given the mandate of giving the team the best chance to win next year what would you have done? Tejada is a high beta proposition, but I do feel like if the stars align on this team at least they have a chance. It's a lot harder for me to see that with the team pre-deal.

Shit, look at the Rockies. Their 4 WS games were started by Jeff Francis, Ubaldo Jimenez, Aaron Cook and Josh Fogg. A dude named Ubaldo, seriously. None of those guys had a season ERA under 4.00.

It will be especially interesting to see how much the Astros play in the reliever market. I'm cautiously optimistic (although I could easily see a couple of stars align the wrong way and the whole thing turning out a disaster as well. First potential shitstorm is at 1pm tomorrow).

[Limey]

Wait....I know this one.  Isiah Thomas?

"Fire Isiah" Chant Breaks Out During Knicks Front Office Meeting

[Noe]

Aww, c'mon.  I actually agree with everything you just said.

I think we differ in our view of the consequences and in that area I'll agree with you to agree to disagree, but don't just assume I'm right because I hope I'm wrong.

I agree, ahum... I think.

[Noe]

The question in regards to FA relievers isn't the money but the years.

Eggszactly.  See: Drabek, Doug.  McLane vowed never to give a pitcher more than three years in contract length ever again until the day he relented and gave Billy Wagner the first four year contract in the team's history for a reliever.  They traded Wagner after the second year of that contract.

The FA relievers now think that if they're risky relievers, they should get two years (see: Percival, Troy) and if their not, they get four (see: Linebrink, Scott).  My understanding is that guys like Vizcaino and others are lining up thinking they should get four year contracts too.

Damn, we're back to the days of Swindell and Drabek all over again and the life of a contract choking a team if it doesn't turn out well.

[Noe]

But could the 5 guys that was traded today brought an elite pitcher?

I would say yes.  But I'm not running other major league baseball organizations and they apparently said no.

[Reuben]

There is one poster who I really hope we've seen the last of. JackAstro summed him up well.

[Noe]

What I haven't heard anyone say really address is:

If you were given the mandate of giving the team the best chance to win next year what would you have done? Tejada is a high beta proposition, but I do feel like if the stars align on this team at least they have a chance. It's a lot harder for me to see that with the team pre-deal.

Shit, look at the Rockies. Their 4 WS games were started by Jeff Francis, Ubaldo Jimenez, Aaron Cook and Josh Fogg. A dude named Ubaldo, seriously. None of those guys had a season ERA under 4.00.

It will be especially interesting to see how much the Astros play in the reliever market. I'm cautiously optimistic (although I could easily see a couple of stars align the wrong way and the whole thing turning out a disaster as well. First potential shitstorm is at 1pm tomorrow).

Right, but to mitigate Francis, Jimenez, Cook, Fogg and Livan Hernandez, you need the best defense in the NL and one of the better bullpens around.  I worry about a defense anchored by a slowing veteran with attitude problems.  Plus, the bullpen... what about the bullpen.

Although I will say that a guy flying under the radar right now is Oscar Villareal. If the he is returning to form of his Arizona days, this is one of the best relievers in the league.  Villareal is pitching in Mexico, his home country, this winter and reports are saying he's throwing as good as he did when he was with Arizona.

That is going to help.... a lot!

[DVauthrin]

First, they're all inexperienced at the major league level.  So success at the major league level over a full 2008 season will automatically up their value.  I expect Patton to show he can be a lefty middle of the rotation starter this year.  That will up his trade value because right now he *looks* like he can be that.  Right now Albers can go into the late innings group of a bullpen and be very successful.  If he demonstrates control of his pitches he's a top of the rotation starter.  I expect him to sit at the back end of their bullpen and pile up very nice stats and make himself a desirable closer in the making.  Sarfate has lately demonstrated improved control so, ditto Albers.  So for those 3 guys it's all tied in to my expectation of major league success.  Costanzo is the biggest leap, IMO.  He has to show he's competent at third and that he can hit at a reasonable rate, say .280 or .290.  With his power that kind of success will get people's attention.  From what I've heard about his development he may just do that.

If I'm wrong about them, so be it.

I respect somebody willing to stand by their convictions and I appreciate this insight.  thanks.

[geezerdonk]

the slow feeling of dread creeping across my scalp

Are you sure that wasn't a wayward crawfish?

[austro]

Also, this one is the longest actual baseball thread. The WBC thread digressed a bit, if I recall.

Just a bit.

[pravata]

Are you sure that wasn't a wayward crawfish?

No.  No I'm not.

[BizidyDizidy]

No.  No I'm not.

Or both.

[Fredia]

We can hope. Loosing Patton is tough since we were very thin (at best) in starters and prospects. He will be better at third that Wiggy, but by how much?

i know where are the deals for the pitchers. as an astro fan i demand pitching

[Astroholic]

i know where are the deals for the pitchers. as an astro fan i demand pitching

Go get em tiger!

[ckutac]

I would say yes.  But I'm not running other major league baseball organizations and they apparently said no.

After seeing the types of names being throw out for Haren, Bedard, and Santana, the 5 guys we cave up will not even come close to landing a star pitcher, the best that it would land is a #3 type of pitcher.

[Colt 45]

We will end up shopping from the damaged goods bin and sign a Jennings, Garcia or Prior.

We'll be fine in the pitching dept, someone(s) will step up.

Good things from Wandy and Sampson this year.

Watch..................and see.

[Froback]

i know where are the deals for the pitchers. as an astro fan i demand pitching

I think unfortunately for the Astros this offseason it takes two to make a deal and I think this trade is a perfect example that nobody with a pitcher you would want to trade for was willing to deal for what the Astros had to offer.

This is why it is SO important that the Astros draft well this year (and the next multiple years) in order to try to even get to average!

[Froback]

We will end up shopping from the damaged goods bin and sign a Jennings, Garcia or Prior.

We'll be fine in the pitching dept, someone(s) will step up.

Good things from Wandy and Sampson this year.

Watch..................and see.

Let's see how did that phrase go... oh yeah

Half full glass kind of guy, eh?

[Astroholic]

After seeing the types of names being throw out for Haren, Bedard, and Santana, the 5 guys we cave up will not even come close to landing a star pitcher, the best that it would land is a #3 type of pitcher.

So, the possibilities to fix the rotation are
1. Older pitchers coming off of a bad year
2. Injured pitchers coming back
3. Non tendered arms
4. AAA+ arms

Not sure there is a two in there, but would love to make a run at Jennings, Silva, Possibly Prior this year and hope for gold.  Also hoping Backe comes on strong and Wandy continues to improve.  

[DVauthrin]

So, the possibilities to fix the rotation are
1. Older pitchers coming off of a bad year
2. Injured pitchers coming back
3. Non tendered arms
4. AAA+ arms

Not sure there is a two in there, but would love to make a run at Jennings, Silva, Possibly Prior this year and hope for gold.  Also hoping Backe comes on strong and Wandy continues to improve.  

I know he's a shell of what he was as a marlin/expo and it would depend on the terms of an offer but livan large could give you 200 innings while keeping you in most games.   silva will cost a team a pretty penny in years/dollars.

[Froback]

I know he's a shell of what he was as a marlin/expo and it would depend on the terms of an offer but livan large could give you 200 innings while keeping you in most games.   silva will cost a team a pretty penny in years/dollars.

Signing Silva would be a true test of the question to Drayton, "How bad do you want to win in 08?".

[kevwun]

Hernandez would do alright with the offense the Astros should be able to give him. He's pitched at least 200 innings in every season since 2000.

[ckutac]

First, they're all inexperienced at the major league level.  So success at the major league level over a full 2008 season will automatically up their value.  I expect Patton to show he can be a lefty middle of the rotation starter this year.  That will up his trade value because right now he *looks* like he can be that.  Right now Albers can go into the late innings group of a bullpen and be very successful.  If he demonstrates control of his pitches he's a top of the rotation starter.  I expect him to sit at the back end of their bullpen and pile up very nice stats and make himself a desirable closer in the making.  Sarfate has lately demonstrated improved control so, ditto Albers.  So for those 3 guys it's all tied in to my expectation of major league success.  Costanzo is the biggest leap, IMO.  He has to show he's competent at third and that he can hit at a reasonable rate, say .280 or .290.  With his power that kind of success will get people's attention.  From what I've heard about his development he may just do that.

If I'm wrong about them, so be it.

I don't see how that would be.  I watched Patton several times in Round Rock this year, and the biggest thing I noticed is that while he could cruise threw innings very easily, he had WAY to many innings that he could not get guys out.  Even trying to be optimistic about his development, bi didn't see how he could be any more than a #3 type of starter.  None of his stuff struck me a plus stuff, and did not seem to have the pinpoint control needed to develop into a Glavine/Maddox type of pitcher.  I suspect he will have a long career as a Woody Williams type of pitcher.  But I can't see how loosing him is going to haunt us.

Matt Albers is the one guy who has the stuff to haunt us, but he is a two pitch pitcher how also struggles with command.  While Albers has a big arm, he has yet to prove that he can get guys out either as a starter or as a reliever.  He has a .300 BAA as a reliever and .289 as a starter last year.  The Astros have had a chance to watch him in the majors for the last year and a half and his numbers still show a kid with a great arm, but an inability to pitch.  If they feel that he doesn't have it in him to develop, now is the time to get something for him, while he still has atleast SOME value as a prospect, if he doesn't develop anymore this year, his value will not go up but instead go down.

Dennis Sarface - Is the unknown in this, and honestly the one that I am most afraid of biting us, but I am not going to lose any sleep over tossing in a 26 year old relief pitcher that has a history of control issues.  Even if he does straighten himself out, I don't see him being Marino Rivera by any means or anything like that.

Michael Costanzo - The guy went to someone that was given no respect when we acquired him in the Lidge trade, a guy who was viewed as no more than a AAAA player to all of a sudden being a real prospect without ever playing a single game.  Philly who needed 3B help was more than willing to give up on him for not improving on what they felt he needed to improve on and what they wanted him to work on, I wouldn't lose any sleep over him either.

[BUWebguy]

Good point.  Matsui could prove by mid-season to be a #8 hitter and Pence moves up to #2, Wiggington to #6 and Towles to #7.  At least this gives them that opportunity to make such a move if necessary and still keep Matsui's superior defense in play up the middle.

Footer thinks it will get shaken up as the year goes along:

I hate the idea of Pence hitting sixth. I believe it's a waste of tremendous speed and a potent bat. I'm projecting him as the No. 6 hitter right now, but in no way do I think that's where he'll spend the majority of the season. There's nothing that says you can't move him to No. 2 and drop Matsui. Yes, right now, Michael Bourn and Matsui are projected to be the No. 1 and 2 -- the "table-setters." I doubt that's how it will end up, however.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071217&content_id=2328726&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou