Author Topic: Asking price for Scott  (Read 3874 times)

jasonact

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Asking price for Scott
« on: December 12, 2007, 09:45:18 am »
Now that Fukudome is off the market, maybe the market for Luke Scott will gain some steam. It appears the Astros are asking for some decent pitching prospect in return (but not finding a taker yet):

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Seeking a left-handed bat to complement Jayson Werth in right field, the Phils have turned their attention to switch-hitter Bobby Kielty after their inquiry into the Astros' Luke Scott elicited a turnoff of an asking price -- either Carlos Carrasco or Josh Outman, both prime pitching prospects.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071211&content_id=2322817&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp
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Jacksonian

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2007, 09:50:46 am »
Now that Fukudome is off the market, maybe the market for Luke Scott will gain some steam. It appears the Astros are asking for some decent pitching prospect in return (but not finding a taker yet):

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071211&content_id=2322817&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

Hold your ground Ed.  You don't have to deal Scott.  And having Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5 offers some excellent protection against injury and flexibility on your bench.
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MusicMan

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2007, 09:52:20 am »
Hold your ground Ed.  You don't have to deal Scott.  And having Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5 offers some excellent protection against injury and flexibility on your bench.

Agreed.  One thought I have though - am I wrong in my impression that, as bad as the pipeline is, the pitching prospects are still vastly stronger than the position prospects?
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jasonact

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2007, 09:53:33 am »
Hold your ground Ed.  You don't have to deal Scott.  And having Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5 offers some excellent protection against injury and flexibility on your bench.

I don't disagree, but if Scott and/or Burke are in a package for some good starting pitching, I'm all for that. I'd rather it be for MLB-ready talent, but I'd also rather take a jet-pack to work everyday too.
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jasonact

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 09:59:19 am »
Hold your ground Ed.  You don't have to deal Scott.  And having Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5 offers some excellent protection against injury and flexibility on your bench.

On another matter, I'm surprised that you include Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5. I kind of thought the preseason OF depth chart after the starting three went Scott, Ramirez, Cruz, Abercrombie. What makes you think Abercrombie will make the 25-man?
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Andyzipp

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 10:08:40 am »
On another matter, I'm surprised that you include Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5. I kind of thought the preseason OF depth chart after the starting three went Scott, Ramirez, Cruz, Abercrombie. What makes you think Abercrombie will make the 25-man?

They're all ahead of Cruz, as he's a NRI, and the others are on the 40 man roster.  Again, I think what you're neglecting is speed and defense, neither of which Scott does.

Jacksonian

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 10:08:53 am »
On another matter, I'm surprised that you include Scott and Abercrombie as your 4 and 5. I kind of thought the preseason OF depth chart after the starting three went Scott, Ramirez, Cruz, Abercrombie. What makes you think Abercrombie will make the 25-man?

Well, Cruz isn't on the 40-man.  Ramirez is still developing and putting him on the 25-man would essentially end his opportunities to be a starter which is opposed to how Wade has described him.  That leaves me with Scott and Abercrombie.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 10:10:05 am »
I don't disagree, but if Scott and/or Burke are in a package for some good starting pitching, I'm all for that. I'd rather it be for MLB-ready talent, but I'd also rather take a jet-pack to work everyday too.

Dealing him is ok but not at discount prices.
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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2007, 10:11:57 am »
Agreed.  One thought I have though - am I wrong in my impression that, as bad as the pipeline is, the pitching prospects are still vastly stronger than the position prospects?

When Duman and I release the top 10 early next year you'll see that pitching is still the stronger side or at least the side with fewer question marks.  But, damn, the Astros system is crappy at the moment.
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MusicMan

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2007, 10:13:00 am »
When Duman and I release the top 10 early next year you'll see that pitching is still the stronger side or at least the side with fewer question marks.  But, damn, the Astros system is crappy at the moment.

Agreed.  I expect the consensus of the system rankings to put the Astros dead last.
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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2007, 10:25:31 am »
They're all ahead of Cruz, as he's a NRI, and the others are on the 40 man roster.  Again, I think what you're neglecting is speed and defense, neither of which Scott does.


Several people have told me that they expect Cruz to make the club and do pretty well this year.  All have said that being with his dad will help him tremedously.
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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2007, 10:28:26 am »

Several people have told me that they expect Cruz to make the club and do pretty well this year.  All have said that being with his dad will help him tremedously.

If Scott is dealt I'd say it's a lock.
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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2007, 10:35:40 am »
Agreed.  I expect the consensus of the system rankings to put the Astros dead last.

Yep.

Here's some fun.  Take a look at the 99-03, 05, and 06 drafts.  Not much has risen to the surface.  Then take a look at 04.  Pence, Patton, Towles plus a couple others that could make some noise down the road.  1 good draft in 8 is not good.  05 and 06 need to make huge strides in development.  The Astros desperately need a terrific 08 draft.  Having 7 picks in the top 5 rounds may help.
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MusicMan

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2007, 10:38:29 am »
Yep.

Here's some fun.  Take a look at the 99-03, 05, and 06 drafts.  Not much has risen to the surface.  Then take a look at 04.  Pence, Patton, Towles plus a couple others that could make some noise down the road.  1 good draft in 8 is not good.  05 and 06 need to make huge strides in development.  The Astros desperately need a terrific 08 draft.  Having 7 picks in the top 5 rounds may help.

Taking a page out of Detroit's "telling Bud where to stick his slotting" playbook might help too.  Might, not would.
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Andyzipp

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 10:43:56 am »

Several people have told me that they expect Cruz to make the club and do pretty well this year.  All have said that being with his dad will help him tremedously.

I expect it as well, but I think based on what I've seen and heard, Scott has to be dealt for that to happen, and Abercrombie serves a role defensively off the bench.

So right now, if nothing changes, I'd expect Lee, Bourn, Pence, Abercrombie, Scott.  If things shake the way WadeSmith want them too, Lee, Bourn, Pence, Abercrombie, Cruz.

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2007, 10:49:56 am »
Taking a page out of Detroit's "telling Bud where to stick his slotting" playbook might help too.  Might, not would.

I don't think this accusation is very valid.  Other than last year's draft slotting issues have been rare.  Stubbs and Lindblom are the only that come to mind immediately.  And, the Stubbs affair, IMO, effected how Drayton operates.
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MusicMan

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2007, 10:59:00 am »
I don't think this accusation is very valid.  Other than last year's draft slotting issues have been rare.  Stubbs and Lindblom are the only that come to mind immediately.  And, the Stubbs affair, IMO, effected how Drayton operates.

I'm not saying to just worry about losing guys to slotting; I'm saying follow Detroit's model of actively pursuing players who might be falling for slotting concerns.

And yes - Stubbs absolutely affected Drayton.
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Froback

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2007, 11:11:20 am »
Agreed.  One thought I have though - am I wrong in my impression that, as bad as the pipeline is, the pitching prospects are still vastly stronger than the position prospects?
While it is true that the Astros have better prospects on the pitching side than the hitting side at the moment, which part of the team needs more help?  Which is harder to acquire good pitching or good hitting?

I think when you look at those, I think you can understand why the pitching is sought after more.  And besides, just because you have more pitching prospects doesn't mean you will actually produce more quality ML level players there.  Look at the team just recently.  The best players to come up recently have almost all been position players, from Taveras and Scott, to Pence and Towles this year.  Patton and Wandy are the only ones who seemed to have shown something more than boarderline level of play recently.

Just some of my thoughts on it, at least.

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2007, 11:13:37 am »
I'm not saying to just worry about losing guys to slotting; I'm saying follow Detroit's model of actively pursuing players who might be falling for slotting concerns.


I see.  Well for the 08 draft specifically if I'm reading early info correctly there should be plenty of talent at the 10 spot in the first round so sacrificing talent for signability shouldn't be a concern there.  Beyond that however we'll see how SmithWade deal with the kids sliding.
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Jacksonian

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 11:20:40 am »
I think when you look at those, I think you can understand why the pitching is sought after more.  And besides, just because you have more pitching prospects doesn't mean you will actually produce more quality ML level players there.  Look at the team just recently.  The best players to come up recently have almost all been position players, from Taveras and Scott, to Pence and Towles this year.  Patton and Wandy are the only ones who seemed to have shown something more than boarderline level of play recently.


I think you're being selective and missing some. Taveras and Scott were brought in late.  Pence and Towles certainly were products of Astros development.  But, Patton and Wandy aren't the only pitchers of note.  Gutierrez, Paulino, Sampson, Albers have all contributed and are still inexperienced.  And other than Sampson they all appear to have higher ceilings than any position player prospect in the minors except maybe Costanzo who isn't a product of Astros development.
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JackAstro

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 11:50:50 am »
I think you're being selective and missing some. Taveras and Scott were brought in late.  Pence and Towles certainly were products of Astros development.  But, Patton and Wandy aren't the only pitchers of note.  Gutierrez, Paulino, Sampson, Albers have all contributed and are still inexperienced.  And other than Sampson they all appear to have higher ceilings than any position player prospect in the minors except maybe Costanzo who isn't a product of Astros development.

Right. And even more specifically, Taveras and Scott were the product of the organization's pitching development, being the bounty for 15-Game Winner Jeriome Robertson.
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Froback

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2007, 02:27:35 pm »
I think you're being selective and missing some. Taveras and Scott were brought in late.  Pence and Towles certainly were products of Astros development.  But, Patton and Wandy aren't the only pitchers of note.  Gutierrez, Paulino, Sampson, Albers have all contributed and are still inexperienced.  And other than Sampson they all appear to have higher ceilings than any position player prospect in the minors except maybe Costanzo who isn't a product of Astros development.
Well true, but I guess my point is, the Astros system has been pretty barren of well thought of position players more so than well thought of pitching potential.  This has not been a just last year thing either, but what I was trying to point out is that Taveras turned out to be an everyday player (yes mostly developed in someone else's system), and so has Pence, and I think it can strongly be argued that Scott has the ability to play everyday, but on this team is getting squeezed out.  Wandy is the only one to really stick.  Albers has made several attempts, but can't seem to put it all together and the team is having a hard time figuring out what he is, starter/bullpen guy.  Part of that is because of the issues on the team, part if his performance.  Sampson looks like a swing guy, which while necessary, is not exactly a real hard thing to find.  The others have had too little experience to know for sure.

I am not saying they don't have the potential, I am just comparing those that have "made it" and those that have not.  And while you can say some of these guys have "made it" from a pitching stance, I look at making it as being a regular starter/closer/prime set-up guy for pitchers and a regular (or close to it) starting position player.  So while the guys you have mentioned have made some impressions and still might make more, I have just seemed to notice more from the batting guys breaking in than the pitchers.

And yes I am being a bit more focused on the last couple of years, but then it has been really obvious the last couple of years that the Astros system has gone in the toilet and most of the time people talk about the lack of positional prospects (justifiably).  I was just wanting to point out that for all the supposed lack of position players compared to pitching prospects the team seems to have produced more bats than pitchers.

Only mentioning those that saw extend action for the first time and fit my "made it" description
2005: Taveras, Qualls (pitch 33 IN in 04), Wandy (struggle in 05 and 06, but made major strides in 07)
2006: Scott (really made impact down the stretch)
2007: Pence (nobody saw him being THAT good),

So in the last 3 years we have seen 2 pitchers and 3 hitters come up and "make it" based on my criterion.  This is not to say the pitching has not produced anything, just that I personally would have expected more simply because there was more "talent" in the pitching side of the system each of those years, and supposedly next to nothing in the hitting and yet there were more batters coming out than pitchers.

I didn't include Sampson, because until they put him in the starters role and leave him there, or he rises to be more than a middle innings guy, I don't think his value is really that much.  And Backe was not included because he came from TB where he was already breaking in, at least with Taveras and Scott their first real ML action was with the Astros.

And right now on this team, it seems like they really could use some good pitching more than additional hitting (not that more hitting wouldn't be worth getting).  So I am really hoping that one of these guys on the cusp, like Albers, Patton or the others really steps up and makes the kind of impact that this team needs.  So far even with Wandy it has been more lack of better options than him claiming a spot unquestionably, at least until this year.

I guess that is more the point I was trying to make.

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Re: Asking price for Scott
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2007, 03:41:09 pm »
I think we could package him with a couple pitching prospects and that 3b we just picked up from the Phillies for Tejada maybe?