Jayson Stark on Lidge, Bourn and Josh Anderson

[Noe]

From his latest rumblings and grumblings on ESPN.com, Jayson Stark offers the following:

• Here's the evaluation of a scout who got to know Brad Lidge well over the years, on whether Lidge and Philadelphia are a good match for each other:

"It wouldn't be a surprise if the Phillies got more out of him [than the Astros did]. For one thing, his mechanics should be better, just because he got his knee fixed [surgically]. The only thing that would worry me is if he has 'one of those games' right away. I just wonder, if he loses that town, can he win it back? Brad's a worrier. But Charlie Manuel is exactly what he needs in a manager. Charlie's style fits Brad Lidge to a tee."

Incidentally, how about this amazing stat:

Opponent batting average against Lidge in 2005, when he was looked at as the best closer in the National League: .223.

Opponent batting average against him this year, when he was looked at as some kind of monumental bust: .219.

• Other teams continue to question why the Astros were in such a hurry to trade Lidge. But the Astros have been telling people who've asked that they'd had surprisingly little interest in Lidge. And they'd already determined Lidge's time in Houston had come and gone. So when they had a chance to trade for center fielder Michael Bourn, a longtime favorite of new GM Ed Wade, they decided there was no point in waiting around.

Virtually everyone we've surveyed on that deal thinks the Phillies got the better of it. But one NL executive disagrees. "I think Houston has got something there in Michael Bourn. I think that guy has great ability. I know I'm out there on an island about that, but that's OK. I'll be out there. I think Michael Bourn will be a real good player."

• The acquisition of Bourn also allowed the Astros to turn around and trade center-field prospect Josh Anderson to the Braves for reliever Oscar Villarreal. If the Braves had to start the season today, Anderson would be their center fielder. But one scout says, flatly: "He's no more than a borderline everyday guy." And the fact that the Braves are still shopping tells you they agree.

[Noe]

I'm not quite sure what the scout means about Charlie Manuel "fitting Lidge to a tee", but if he means Manuel will tell Brad to stop being a wuss and get over it... move on... or else meet me in my office and we can hannel dis like men...", then yeah, he'll be good for Brad.

Maybe he means that Manuel will tell Brad to stop talking to the idiot media people about Pujols already and concentrate on doing his job.  Manuel hates the media around Philly, so it won't surprise me if Manuel runs interference for Lidge the first time he blows a game.

[legs_of_eggs]

If he loses Philly with 'one of those games' then he won't be winning them back. It'll be all Pooholes talk all the time. If he thought being in bad standing with Houston was bad, wait til the networks and Philly idiots experiences him. He will miss the time spent here.

[Froback]

No doubt Phily is a tough place to play.  But like more places like that, the opposite can also be true.

If you "Wow!" them early on, you can often build up enough credit that they ignore occassionally issues.

But I agree the way he performs in April and May will play big on their reactions to him later in the year.

Show yourself to be dominate early and they will love you.  Fall flat early, and you are screwed.

[HudsonHawk]

If he loses Philly with 'one of those games' then he won't be winning them back. It'll be all Pooholes talk all the time. If he thought being in bad standing with Houston was bad, wait til the networks and Philly idiots experiences him. He will miss the time spent here.

I don't recall Lidge ever getting crossways with the Houston media.  In fact, he was remarkably accessible and cordial with the media, even when said media were being total jackasses.  I think Lidge always handled himself with class and professionalism, even when he was getting beat down.  He did his best and took responsibility when it went south.  I got absolutely no complaints about Brad Lidge's behavior.

[legs_of_eggs]

I don't recall Lidge ever getting crossways with the Houston media.  In fact, he was remarkably accessible and cordial with the media, even when said media were being total jackasses.  I think Lidge always handled himself with class and professionalism, even when he was getting beat down.  He did his best and took responsibility when it went south.  I got absolutely no complaints about Brad Lidge's behavior.

I wasn't attacking Lidge's character one bit, my fault if it was perceived this way. I meant when I heard him saying in a radio interview after the trade that obviously no one likes being booed by their own fans that its going to be a lot harsher treatment from other fanbases namely the one hes playing for now and growing thicker skin would be a good idea.

[juliogotay]

From his latest rumblings and grumblings on ESPN.com, Jayson Stark offers the following:

• Here's the evaluation of a scout who got to know Brad Lidge well over the years, on whether Lidge and Philadelphia are a good match for each other:

"It wouldn't be a surprise if the Phillies got more out of him [than the Astros did]. For one thing, his mechanics should be better, just because he got his knee fixed [surgically]. The only thing that would worry me is if he has 'one of those games' right away. I just wonder, if he loses that town, can he win it back? Brad's a worrier. But Charlie Manuel is exactly what he needs in a manager. Charlie's style fits Brad Lidge to a tee."

Incidentally, how about this amazing stat:

Opponent batting average against Lidge in 2005, when he was looked at as the best closer in the National League: .223.

Opponent batting average against him this year, when he was looked at as some kind of monumental bust: .219.

• Other teams continue to question why the Astros were in such a hurry to trade Lidge. But the Astros have been telling people who've asked that they'd had surprisingly little interest in Lidge. And they'd already determined Lidge's time in Houston had come and gone. So when they had a chance to trade for center fielder Michael Bourn, a longtime favorite of new GM Ed Wade, they decided there was no point in waiting around.

Virtually everyone we've surveyed on that deal thinks the Phillies got the better of it. But one NL executive disagrees. "I think Houston has got something there in Michael Bourn. I think that guy has great ability. I know I'm out there on an island about that, but that's OK. I'll be out there. I think Michael Bourn will be a real good player."

• The acquisition of Bourn also allowed the Astros to turn around and trade center-field prospect Josh Anderson to the Braves for reliever Oscar Villarreal. If the Braves had to start the season today, Anderson would be their center fielder. But one scout says, flatly: "He's no more than a borderline everyday guy." And the fact that the Braves are still shopping tells you they agree.

what jumps out at me here is the NL executive that is out there on an island liking Bourn. He knows he's on an island. Is Bourn generally considered a role-player or marginal prospect? We may be seeing how good (or not good) Wade is in evaluating talent with this deal. I hope he's right on.

[legs_of_eggs]

what jumps out at me here is the NL executive that is out there on an island liking Bourn. He knows he's on an island. Is Bourn generally considered a role-player or marginal prospect? We may be seeing how good (or not good) Wade is in evaluating talent with this deal. I hope he's right on.

Well looking at the offense he constructed in Philly I'm gonna go with trusting Wade on this trade.

[JimR]

what jumps out at me here is the NL executive that is out there on an island liking Bourn. He knows he's on an island. Is Bourn generally considered a role-player or marginal prospect? We may be seeing how good (or not good) Wade is in evaluating talent with this deal. I hope he's right on.

dammit, did you just parachute in? PURPURA offered Qualls and Scott for Bourn at the deadline last year. Wade was nowhere around. this "Wade traded for his favorite" BS ingores the undeniable fact that the Astros have been after Bourn for a year.

[Jacksonian]

dammit, did you just parachute in? PURPURA offered Qualls and Scott for Bourn at the deadline last year. Wade was nowhere around. this "Wade traded for his favorite" BS ingores the undeniable fact that the Astros have been after Bourn for a year.

Longer than a year.

[legs_of_eggs]

dammit, did you just parachute in? PURPURA offered Qualls and Scott for Bourn at the deadline last year. Wade was nowhere around. this "Wade traded for his favorite" BS ingores the undeniable fact that the Astros have been after Bourn for a year.

This is true and the fact that Wade hasn't soured on the guy since in the least shows there's something there. I keep pointing to what the Phillies offense is right now and assume Wade knows a thing or two about position players.

[Noe]

what jumps out at me here is the NL executive that is out there on an island liking Bourn. He knows he's on an island. Is Bourn generally considered a role-player or marginal prospect? We may be seeing how good (or not good) Wade is in evaluating talent with this deal. I hope he's right on.

Well, truth be told, the context is "Who got the better of the deal: Philly or Houston?".  Stark says the majority of people asked said Philly.  Why?  Because Lidge has a major league track record of being outstanding.  The remark about being on an island is about "whether Houston or Philly got the better of the deal", not whether Michael Bourn is a bust.  At least one NL Exec already feels Bourn is going to be a really good player.  All the others are taking a wait and see attitude, mainly because Bourn hasn't performed in the majors for an extended period of time yet.  Advantage Philly in terms of getting a proven commodity.

One NL Exec already sees the value of Bourn, so he's going out on a limb *and saying Houston got the better of the deal*.

[pravata]

Well looking at the offense he constructed in Philly I'm gonna go with trusting Wade on this trade.

Offense has little to do with it.  While Bourn may have been a 4th outfielder for the Phillies, he's exactly what the Astros need in center.  A good fit for the Astros lineup.

[legs_of_eggs]

Offense has little to do with it.  While Bourn may have been a 4th outfielder for the Phillies, he's exactly what the Astros need in center.  A good fit for the Astros lineup.

Defense is a huge part too yes. But the speed is the main 'offensive' quality I'm pointing too. And the knack for stealing bases, which is much more than just pure speed.

[legs_of_eggs]

Well, truth be told, the context is "Who got the better of the deal: Philly or Houston?".  Stark says the majority of people asked said Philly.  Why?  Because Lidge has a major league track record of being outstanding.  The remark about being on an island is about "whether Houston or Philly got the better of the deal", not whether Michael Bourn is a bust.  At least one NL Exec already feels Bourn is going to be a really good player.  All the others are taking a wait and see attitude, mainly because Bourn hasn't performed in the majors for an extended period of time yet.  Advantage Philly in terms of getting a proven commodity.

One NL Exec already sees the value of Bourn, so he's going out on a limb *and saying Houston got the better of the deal*.

This is what I don't get about writers who ask these questions immediately after a trade. Obviously the team getting the guy with Major League history looks like they're getting the better end. Patience is not a media virtue.

[mihoba]

Well, truth be told, the context is "Who got the better of the deal: Philly or Houston?".  Stark says the majority of people asked said Philly.  Why?  Because Lidge has a major league track record of being outstanding.  The remark about being on an island is about "whether Houston or Philly got the better of the deal", not whether Michael Bourn is a bust.  At least one NL Exec already feels Bourn is going to be a really good player.  All the others are taking a wait and see attitude, mainly because Bourn hasn't performed in the majors for an extended period of time yet.  Advantage Philly in terms of getting a proven commodity.

One NL Exec already sees the value of Bourn, so he's going out on a limb.

[glasshalffull] Larry Andersen was a proven commodity at one time, also. [/glasshalffull]

[Noe]

This is what I don't get about writers who ask these questions immediately after a trade. Obviously the team getting the guy with Major League history looks like they're getting the better end. Patience is not a media virtue.

Well, that's why Stark asked NL Baseball execs for their opinion and not other media guys.  This is usually done because you gauge what the league (meaning the baseball ops people) feel about a player.  I like reading that stuff from Stark (see the comments about Andruw Jones).  So if most NL Execs have a higher value on Lidge right now than Bourn it is obvious that Lidge has a higher upside because he's proven himself in the majors already.  That *one* NL Exec said "wait a moment..." means that this is not one-sided at all.  In fact, in the end, it may prove to be the better team was Houston afterall.

In talking about this deal, I mentioned the Unit trade to Houston in 1998 as context for this.  All of the landscape in the MLB said Houston won on that deal: three minor leaguers for an ACE star pitcher!  Those three minor leaguers were Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and Jon Halama.  If Stark was asking the same question then that he asks now, he'd get the same answer: Houston won on that deal!  Quite possibly one or maybe two would of said "Wait a minute, this Freddy Garcia kid... hmmmmm" or "Carlos Guillen?  Wow, that is going to turn out great for Seattle!"

What Bourn has to do now is prove himself because he's finally getting his chance to do so.

[Noe]

[glasshalffull] Larry Andersen was a proven commodity at one time, also. [/glasshalffull]

See: Johnson, Randy for three minor leaguers

[Mr. Happy]

I'm not quite sure what the scout means about Charlie Manuel "fitting Lidge to a tee", but if he means Manuel will tell Brad to stop being a wuss and get over it... move on... or else meet me in my office and we can hannel dis like men...", then yeah, he'll be good for Brad.

Maybe he means that Manuel will tell Brad to stop talking to the idiot media people about Pujols already and concentrate on doing his job.  Manuel hates the media around Philly, so it won't surprise me if Manuel runs interference for Lidge the first time he blows a game.

The Phillies press have jaws. This ain't Pinwheel and JdJO. These are real meat-eating mediots. Lidge will have no choice but to toughen up. Their fans are no better.

[HudsonHawk]

The Phillies press have jaws. This ain't Pinwheel and JdJO. These are real meat-eating mediots. Lidge will have no choice but to toughen up. Their fans are no better.

Again, when has Lidge ever been a puss in front of the media?

[Mr. Happy]

Again, when has Lidge ever been a puss in front of the media?

I never said that Lidge was a puss in front of the media. My point is that EVERY player has to toughen in front of the Phillie mediots.

[pravata]

I never said that Lidge was a puss in front of the media. My point is that EVERY player has to toughen in front of the Phillie mediots.

Possibly be less forthcoming.  He wont be able to stand in front of his locker until he answers all their questions.  Those people are assholes who are out for blood.

[Limey]

Incidentally, how about this amazing stat:

Opponent batting average against Lidge in 2005, when he was looked at as the best closer in the National League: .223.

Opponent batting average against him this year, when he was looked at as some kind of monumental bust: .219.

A rhetorical question, of course, but what was the opponent's SLG% in those two seasons?

[Limey]

I don't recall Lidge ever getting crossways with the Houston media.  In fact, he was remarkably accessible and cordial with the media, even when said media were being total jackasses.  I think Lidge always handled himself with class and professionalism, even when he was getting beat down.  He did his best and took responsibility when it went south.  I got absolutely no complaints about Brad Lidge's behavior.

Lidge was "fucking huge" with the Houston media.

[BUWebguy]

A rhetorical question, of course, but what was the opponent's SLG% in those two seasons?

Rhetorical or not, it got me thinking, so I looked it up. .323 and .409, if anyone else is wondering.

[Limey]

Rhetorical or not, it got me thinking, so I looked it up. .323 and .409, if anyone else is wondering.

Thanks.  So the average went down fractionally, but the contact made was much, much better.

[Reuben]

Thanks.  So the average went down fractionally, but the contact made was much, much better.

More walks, too. Of course, Stark refers to 2005, but Lidge's numbers were much better in '04: .174 average against, .254 OBP, .290 SLG. Yeeeeeshhh. He basically turned the average hitter into a pitcher with a bat.

[Froback]

More walks, too. Of course, Stark refers to 2005, but Lidge's numbers were much better in '04: .174 average against, .254 OBP, .290 SLG. Yeeeeeshhh. He basically turned the average hitter into a pitcher with a bat.

I am not so sure it wasn't worse than that, given who he might have been called in to face in 04 (Dotel started the year as the closer).  He actually might have been turning Middle of the line-up type hitters into pitchers.  And it wasn't just 1 AB, but for the whole season (at least every AB he pitched in that season).