Author Topic: 3-4-5  (Read 2697 times)

Tralfaz

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2223
    • View Profile
3-4-5
« on: November 16, 2007, 09:22:21 am »
If the Astros go with a batting order that puts Pence in the three hole.  Is Berkman automatically the best clean up hitter, considering what Lee did there in '07? 

And will putting one of them in the five hole an issue?  We all know Lee was signed to provide protection for Berkman, but is that written in stone in his contract?  This is probably not a question if Berkman didn't struggle like he did last year.  But he did, and I don't know enough about comparing the two, as to determine who the better choice is, so this may not even be a question, but is this senario creating a clean-up log jam for our two power bats?
RO RASROS!

Noe

  • Guest
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 09:31:15 am »
If the Astros go with a batting order that puts Pence in the three hole.  Is Berkman automatically the best clean up hitter, considering what Lee did there in '07?

Define what you mean by "best clean up hitter". 

Quote
And will putting one of them in the five hole an issue?

No.

Quote
We all know Lee was signed to provide protection for Berkman, but is that written in stone in his contract?

He was not signed to be protection for Berkman.  He was signed to drive in runs.

Quote
This is probably not a question if Berkman didn't struggle like he did last year.  But he did, and I don't know enough about comparing the two, as to determine who the better choice is, so this may not even be a question, but is this senario creating a clean-up log jam for our two power bats?

No.

pravata

  • Guest
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 09:34:20 am »
Is this a new way to start a Pence at #2 discussion?

Ankh

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 255
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 09:37:13 am »
This is a long-winded way to say Pence-Lee-Berkman as 3-4-5.

VirtualBob

  • Pope
  • Posts: 5630
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 09:38:29 am »
This is a long-winded way to say Pence-Lee-Berkman as 3-4-5.

We've gone over this before ... Lee is much better suited than Berkman to bat 5th.
Up in the Air

Tralfaz

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2223
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 09:39:14 am »
Define what you mean by "best clean up hitter". 

I guess I mean that normally your best offensive weapon is slotted 3, which use to be Berkman.  So is he automatically best suited at 4 where Lee hit all year last year and did it well.



[/quote] He was not signed to be protection for Berkman.  He was signed to drive in runs.[/quote]

I'm basing that statement on Purpura's comments going into last seasons void.  IIRC, didn't he say their priority was to aquire a power bat to protect Berkman?
RO RASROS!

Tralfaz

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2223
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 09:41:10 am »
Is this a new way to start a Pence at #2 discussion?

Not at all, just about Berkman (off year) vs Lee, going into next year at clean up.
RO RASROS!

Noe

  • Guest
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 09:47:31 am »
I guess I mean that normally your best offensive weapon is slotted 3, which use to be Berkman.  So is he automatically best suited at 4 where Lee hit all year last year and did it well.

Have you read Lineup Machinations 101 yet?  Much of what you're asking has been discussed.

Quote
I'm basing that statement on Purpura's comments going into last seasons void.  IIRC, didn't he say their priority was to aquire a power bat to protect Berkman?

Well, the outcome is whoever hits in front of Lee is protection, but he wasn't signed to specifically provide that outcome.  No one is.  In the year that Berkman had no one (Ensberg was a big flop) behind him, he had almost MVP numbers.  What the Astros knew they needed was a middle of the lineup bat to take pressure off Everett and Ausmus having to drive those runs in because of the failure of Ensberg, Wilson and Lane in the 4, 5 and 6 hole.

Are you thinking that the 5 hole is not as important to driving in runs as the cleanup spot?  Because if you are, you are wrong on that assumption.  It is a *HUGE* need on a team to have a great run producer in the 5 hole.  Not since the days of Kent and Alou before him have the Astros had that part of the lineup solidified.  Those were the days of playoff contending teams too.

What you need to understand is that 3-4-5 are solved only if 1-2 perform up to expectations... basically, you can't drive in runs if guys ahead of you don't get on.  If 1 through 5 do their job well, 6 becomes much more easier to handle for either Towles (a rookie) or Wiggington (my chalk pick for that spot).  7 and 8 are not in any pressure any more to have to pick up the ducks left behind by an inept 4-5-6 in the lineup.  That would probably bode well for a team that is carrying a rookie catcher and a shortstop known more for his glove than his bat.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:51:41 am by Noe in Austin »

Noe

  • Guest
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 09:48:46 am »
Not at all, just about Berkman (off year) vs Lee, going into next year at clean up.

Why cleanup?  Driving in runs is driving in runs and in some circles, the #5 guy is much more important to driving in runs than a cleanup hitter.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 09:52:38 am »
Lance Berkman's OBPs:

2007 .386
2006 .420
2005 .411
2004 .450
2003 .412
2002 .405
2001 .430

Carlos Lee's OBPs:

2007 .354
2006 .355
2005 .324
2004 .366
2003 .366
2002 .359
2001 .321

For that matter, Hunter Pence's OBPs:

2007 .360
2007 .387 (AAA)
2006 .357 (AA)
2005 .400 (A)
2004 .369 (A)

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2007, 09:55:16 am »
I guess I mean that normally your best offensive weapon is slotted 3, which use to be Berkman.

Used to be?

Tralfaz

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2223
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2007, 09:58:00 am »
Have you read Lineup Machinations 101 yet? 

Oh yeah, excellent thread.

Well, the outcome is whoever hits in front of Lee is protection, but he wasn't signed to specifically provide that outcome.  No one is.  In the year that Berkman had no one (Ensberg was a big flop) behind him, he had almost MVP numbers.  What the Astros knew they needed was a middle of the lineup bat to take pressure off Everett and Ausmus having to drive those runs in because of the failure of Ensberg, Wilson and Lane in the 4, 5 and 6 hole.

Are you thinking that the 5 hole is not as important to driving in runs as the cleanup spot?  Because if you are, you are wrong on that assumption.  It is a *HUGE* need on a team to have a great run producer in the 5 hole.  Not since the days of Kent and Alou before him have the Astros had that part of the lineup solidified.  Those were the days of playoff contending teams too.

What you need to understand is that 3-4-5 are solved only if 1-2 perform up to expectations... basically, you can't drive in runs if guys ahead of you don't get on.  If 1 through 5 do their job well, 6 becomes much more easier to handle for either Towles (a rookie) or Wiggington (my chalk pick for that spot).  7 and 8 are not in any pressure any more to have to pick up the ducks left behind by an inept 4-5-6 in the lineup.  That would probably bode well for a team that is carrying a rookie catcher and a shortstop known more for his glove than his bat.

That's, what I'm looking for.  Thanks.  

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of the 5 hitter.  Just curious as to the psyche of Lee being shifted to it and the opinions around here on such minutia.  You know and ego's and such.  Sounds like it's a none issue though.  Also, tired of hearing about Bonds and A-Rod.
RO RASROS!

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 10:00:17 am »
Just curious as to the psyche of Lee being shifted to it and the opinions around here on such minutia.

Are you hoping that his therapist reads here and will post something?

Tralfaz

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2223
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 10:28:56 am »
Are you hoping that his therapist reads here and will post something?

Absorutry!  But more interested in the OBP stats you provided, appreciate it.

Lance Berkman's OBPs:

2007 .386
2006 .420
2005 .411
2004 .450
2003 .412
2002 .405
2001 .430

Carlos Lee's OBPs:

2007 .354
2006 .355
2005 .324
2004 .366
2003 .366
2002 .359
2001 .321

Speaks for itself, even with Berkmans off year. 

RO RASROS!

Gizzmonic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4588
  • Space City Carbohydrate
    • View Profile
Re: 3-4-5
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2007, 10:41:10 am »
I don't think Lee would care.  He will get just as many opportunities to drive in runs at the 5 as he would at cleanup.  As for Pence, sometimes you have "natural" 3 hitters, sometimes that's just the position that fits best.  Pence at 3 fits best considering the rest of the Astros lineup.  That's not to say that Pence will not be an "natural" 3 hitter at some point in his career. 

Right now, the Astros are worrying much more about their pitching staff than they are about their starting lineup.


Oh yeah, excellent thread.

That's, what I'm looking for.  Thanks. 

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of the 5 hitter.  Just curious as to the psyche of Lee being shifted to it and the opinions around here on such minutia.  You know and ego's and such.  Sounds like it's a none issue though.  Also, tired of hearing about Bonds and A-Rod.
Grab another Coke and let's die