Author Topic: NL swept again  (Read 5484 times)

Houston

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1249
    • View Profile
NL swept again
« on: October 30, 2007, 10:36:54 am »
The NL has been swept in three of the past four World Series (St. Louis, 2004; Houston, 2005; Colorado, 2007) and the AL has dominated the All-Star game for a decade.

What are the reasons for this domination by one league? What will it take to turn it around? Does anyone care?
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 11:04:14 am »
What are the reasons for this domination by one league? What will it take to turn it around? Does anyone care?

I'm thinking socks. Yeah, it has something to do with socks, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."

Rammer33

  • Disappointing Rookie
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2007, 11:25:20 am »
The NL has been swept in three of the past four World Series (St. Louis, 2004; Houston, 2005; Colorado, 2007) and the AL has dominated the All-Star game for a decade.

What are the reasons for this domination by one league? What will it take to turn it around? Does anyone care?
I was thinking the same thing ... it seems the NL has had a number of teams recently that are able to get through the first rounds and to the series courtesy of a hot streak – only then run into a wall … (sure, its all streaks to some extent in the postseason) but overall I think it makes it more plausible in the NL for (we'll call them) borderline playoff teams to get through because the NL is not near as top heavy as the AL, generally speaking ...

not that these NL teams are bad teams but those three are teams that, in my opinion, overachieved getting to the series ... 

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 11:42:37 am »
There are a number of factors involved.  Primarily, I think, they boil down to economics (read MONEY!) which influences the probabilities for each team.   Certainly, teams like Boston and NYY have solid baseball people but Money has bought them out of how many bad contracts?  Could any team eat the contracts on Clement, Gagne (albeit half a season or less), Lugo, and Hinske (amounting to approx 26mil in salary) even though they didn't contribute much or play regularly (besides Lugo, and I tend to think they won in spite of Lugo, and not because of him).  And NYY, with Pavano, Farnsworth, Mussina, Damon, and Giambi (ignoring the fact they paid 16mil for Pettitte, who's good but damn that's alot of cash for a 2/3 starter).  Those players and their contracts would kill any other team in the league.  When 3 of the 4 AL teams in playoffs occupy 1, 2, and 4 of the top spending teams in the league, it's hard to exclude economics as a factor.

However, on the flip side, the NL teams - Philly is sitting around 90mil, Milwaukee at 70mil, and both Arizona and Colorado in the mid-low 50's - are all mid-market teams.  The only mid-market team to make the playoffs in the AL is Cleveland. 

In addition, you have teams employing totally different strategies.  The "experts" can rave about Boston and NYY developing their own players.  They still can afford to out-spend to keep their own talented players and out-bid other teams from keeping the players they develop.  Meanwhile, you have teams that developed the majority of the players in their lineup who are short of their Free Agency requirements. 

There is an obvious factor that some teams simply cannot develop their own talent or are not very good at developing certain positions, i.e. positional players versus pitching.  Houston would be, IMO, a fine example of a team that turns out servicable pitchers, with the occassional top tier pitcher, but struggles to turn out equivalent positional players.  Philly, on the other hand, couldn't find a pitcher if he bit them on the ass, but sure seem to find positional All-Stars like they grow on trees (which I personally think is a factor behind Wade's hiring, perhaps meshing Houston's success with pitching and Wade's involvement in the success in Philly). 

If anything can be taken out of this, I think that the next collective bargaining agreement will see even more revenue sharing.  I'd also like to see a true slotting system for the amateur draft.  It's bad enough that the big money teams have made the majors unduly influenced by economics.  When teams have to avoid drafting amateurs because of the "Boras Factor", then the game is headed for trouble, again IMO.

Other than that, playoff baseball is all about streaks and riding the hot hand.  If Colorado's pitching had held up against the Boston offense, and their hitters not gone ice-cold at the plate, this may not have been such a lopsided sweep. It's a crap-shoot... and a large part of why it's fun to watch the playoffs. 

eta: 2007 Salary totals http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 12:01:35 pm by S.P. Rodriguez »
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

subnuclear

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6116
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 12:23:26 pm »
I'm sure a lot of us remember that 2005 was as competitive a series as a sweep can be.   

Also, I think its bad to assume the Red Sox, who were a well built team both in 2004 and 2007, represent the entire American League. 

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 12:44:38 pm »
I'm sure a lot of us remember that 2005 was as competitive a series as a sweep can be.   


And if a certain 3rd baseman could get a damn hit, it would not have been a sweep at all.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 12:48:32 pm by Astroholic »

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 01:00:14 pm »
I don't assume the Red Sox are reflective of the entire AL.  As I tried to state, the Red Sox are reflective of the majority of the AL teams who make the PLAYOFFS.  We were talking about the playoffs, therefore the only teams I focused on were teams who participated.  In reference to the question about the last 4 World Series, NYY have been to the playoffs every year.  Boston 3 of 4.  Anaheim 3 of 4. 

If you follow the link, you'll see that those three teams, are three of the top 4 teams in Salary for the past 4 years. There is no single NL team who has placed in the top 4 in all 4 previous years. 

So no, it's not about Boston.  It's about money and what it allows teams like Boston and NYY to do with it.  I don't put anaheim in the same realm as those two because, there is a 20+mil difference between the Angels and Boston as well as an 80+ mil difference between the Angels and NYY.   Not to mention the fact that outside of pitching, Anaheim produces a steady supply of their of full time players. 
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

Noe

  • Guest
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 02:55:29 pm »
The NL has been swept in three of the past four World Series (St. Louis, 2004; Houston, 2005; Colorado, 2007) and the AL has dominated the All-Star game for a decade.

What are the reasons for this domination by one league? What will it take to turn it around? Does anyone care?

In each of those sweeps, the AL played better defense (not by much) and pitched better (not by much) and hit better in key situations (by much).

Froback

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2253
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2007, 03:18:51 pm »
In each of those sweeps, the AL played better defense (not by much) and pitched better (not by much) and hit better in key situations (by much).
I think other than times when a pitcher is totally dominate in a game, the hitting in key situations greatly affects the appearance of good pitching.  Think about a game where a guy pitches 7 innings and gives up 7 baserunners and no runs, because the other team could get a hit in a key situation.  Then compare that to a game where a guy pitches 7 innings and gives up 7 baserunnes and 4 runs, because the other team got 1 or 2 key hits, maybe it was a grandslam with 2 outs or something.  Most people would think that the pitching wasn't so good, giving up 4 runs in that game.  But sometimes it is a fine line.

I guess the reason I make this statement is that I feel the Astros out-pitched the White Sox in the Series of 05, but the Sox got more key hits in every game and that proved the difference.

The Red Sox have such a deep line-up of hitters that it is sometimes like an endless string of "dangerous" hitters.  And they have 2 exceptional big game pitchers and 1 other starter who is very good in them.  Mix those two things together and you should win most of the time.  The Rockies were riding a very hot streak from their pitchers and were getting consistent hitting from their line-up... until they reached the series.  Then the pitching was good, but not great and the batting was abysmal as a team.  Not a good combo when you have to win.

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2007, 03:22:14 pm »
And they have 2 exceptional big game pitchers and 1 other starter who is very good in them. 

And they were able to line those pitchers up the way they wanted because of the TV schedule.

Arky Vaughan

  • Administrator
  • Pope
  • Posts: 6335
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2007, 03:30:54 pm »
The NL has been swept in three of the past four World Series (St. Louis, 2004; Houston, 2005; Colorado, 2007) and the AL has dominated the All-Star game for a decade.

What are the reasons for this domination by one league? What will it take to turn it around? Does anyone care?

It is difficult to form an opinion based on fewer games over the course of a decade than a team typically plays in spring training.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 03:33:41 pm by Arky Vaughan »

ValpoCory

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2461
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2007, 03:35:04 pm »
Although the NL has still won 3 of the last 7 World Series, the last time a Game 1 was played in an NL stadium was before American Idol debuted.

mrpink

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 915
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2007, 03:36:34 pm »
Although the NL has still won 3 of the last 7 World Series, the last time a Game 1 was played in an NL stadium was before American Idol debuted.

Those were the days.....

Fredia

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6896
  • Looking forward
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2007, 03:47:09 pm »
Although the NL has still won 3 of the last 7 World Series, the last time a Game 1 was played in an NL stadium was before American Idol debuted.
there was a time before american idol? i still am not sure the all star game should be the decisive factor in home field for a world series.
forever is composed entirely of nows

johnstros

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 485
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2007, 03:49:56 pm »

not that these NL teams are bad teams but those three are teams that, in my opinion, overachieved getting to the series ... 


i would like to think that the astros had something to do with the cardinals getting swept that year.  from what i saw astros pushed the redbirds to the absolute limit.  i felt the cardinals were a really great team that year, but all the better because they got it really handed to them   

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2007, 03:56:51 pm »
i still am not sure the all star game should be the decisive factor in home field for a world series.

I'm absolutely sure it shouldn't be.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2007, 04:05:26 pm »
I'm absolutely sure it shouldn't be.
Second that.  This is one of Bud’s bad ideas, IMO.

VirtualBob

  • Pope
  • Posts: 5630
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2007, 04:06:48 pm »
Second that.  This is one of Bud’s bad ideas, IMO.

If they really want to give each league an opportunity to earn HFA, they should use the composite record in interleague play.   Then maybe the ASG could be the tie-breaker.

I guess that's too obvious, though.
Up in the Air

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2007, 04:08:25 pm »
If they really want to give each league an opportunity to earn HFA, they should use the composite record in interleague play.   Then maybe the ASG could be the tie-breaker.

I guess that's too obvious, though.

Or how about alternate every year, oh wait we already tried that.

johnstros

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 485
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2007, 04:12:49 pm »
how about a neutral stadium???

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2007, 04:13:33 pm »
how about a neutral stadium???

Now please explain how that would work?  You know with the 'dh' and all.

johnstros

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 485
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2007, 04:18:48 pm »
Now please explain how that would work?  You know with the 'dh' and all.
honestly, the dh is one thing in baseball that has to go.

it's just a crazy idea, i don't know how it would work because you have to play so many games

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2007, 04:35:11 pm »
honestly, the dh is one thing in baseball that has to go.

it's just a crazy idea, i don't know how it would work because you have to play so many games

I agree that the dh is not good.  I also think your idea is not good.

Fredia

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6896
  • Looking forward
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2007, 04:43:47 pm »
how about a neutral stadium???
then it would turn into a super bowl for baseball
forever is composed entirely of nows

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2007, 04:54:44 pm »
Or how about alternate every year, oh wait we already tried that.

I never understood what was so wrong with that system.
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

MusicMan

  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 25931
  • Thanks for 2015
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2007, 04:55:39 pm »
I never understood what was so wrong with that system.

I don't understand how the current system is less arbitrary than that.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Bench

  • Illuminati
  • Posts: 16476
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2007, 06:58:52 pm »
I don't understand how the current system is less arbitrary than that.

What's so awfully arbitrary about switching every year? It's entirely predictable, ordered and guaranteed to be even to both leagues; just the opposite of arbitrary or capricous. The fact that Jorge Posada hitting a double off of Trevor Hoffman in early July, two players which weren't even in the series, decides who gets the home field advantage in the World Series is not only arbitrary but also irrelevant and random.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:06:11 pm by Bench »
"Holy shit, Mozart. Get me off this fucking thing."

Clark in Denver

  • Veteran Role Player
  • Posts: 291
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2007, 07:07:08 pm »
If they went back to alternating every other year, how would Joe Buck and Tim McCarver fill up 9 innings of the all star game if they can't talk about how the players are playing harder because they know "This One Counts.TM"?
Astros Fan: 1978-2011

Fredia

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6896
  • Looking forward
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2007, 07:09:59 pm »
If they went back to alternating every other year, how would Joe Buck and Tim McCarver fill up 9 innings of the all star game if they can't talk about how the players are playing harder because they know "This One Counts.TM"?
I am sure every player in both the nl and al play all out for the glory of their leagues..
forever is composed entirely of nows

ValpoCory

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 2461
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2007, 08:49:44 pm »
And to think, the alternating back and forth would still be happening had Toriiiii Hunter missed Bonds' home run ball.

Nice knee-jerk reaction Bud.

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2007, 11:12:04 pm »
What's so awfully arbitrary about switching every year? It's entirely predictable, ordered and guaranteed to be even to both leagues; just the opposite of arbitrary or capricous. The fact that Jorge Posada hitting a double off of Trevor Hoffman in early July, two players which weren't even in the series, decides who gets the home field advantage in the World Series is not only arbitrary but also irrelevant and random.

I agree. Sometimes its better to leave shit alone.

chuck

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12495
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2007, 02:11:36 am »
I'm thinking socks. Yeah, it has something to do with socks, but I'll be damned if I know what it is.

You missed your chance. You should have said 'I'll be darned.'
Y todo lo que sube baja
pregúntale a Pedro Navaja

Ty in Tampa

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 9111
  • You just gotta keep livin' man, L-I-V-I-N
    • View Profile
Re: NL swept again
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2007, 07:23:23 am »
You missed your chance. You should have said 'I'll be darned.'

There goes my POTVA.
"You want me broken. You want me dead.
I'm living rent-free in the back of your head."