Scrap Iron is a Class Act.

[Mr. Happy]

Read Footer's article in which she quotes Garner.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070827&content_id=2173632&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

This is a good man who didn't deserve the treatment that he got in the manner in which he got it. The fact that Garner feels good about Cooper makes me feel good about him too. I hope that he keeps the job.

[JimR]

Read Footer's article in which she quotes Garner.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070827&content_id=2173632&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

This is a good man who didn't deserve the treatment that he got in the manner in which he got it. The fact that Garner feels good about Cooper makes me feel good about him too. I hope that he keeps the job.

so is Purpura. i feel much worse for him.

[Mr. Happy]

so is Purpura. i feel much worse for him.

Great point, Jim. Garner mentioned Purpura as well, but Purpura politely refused to comment.

[JimR]

Great point, Jim. Garner mentioned Purpura as well, but Purpura politely refused to comment.

he worked his entire career to be a GM, and he had his dream job. i do not believe he had a fair chance to make his own decisions. i am afraid he is so damaged by McLane's actions and comments that getting another GM position will be very difficult. i think McLane ruined him, and i hate it.

[Mr. Happy]

he worked his entire career to be a GM, and he had his dream job. i do not believe he had a fair chance to make his own decisions. i am afraid he is so damaged by McLane's actions and comments that getting another GM position will be very difficult. i think McLane ruined him, and i hate it.

Purpura was an organization man. He was an Astro. I really hope that he can get another GM job. Hunsicker, who escaped McLane, can put in a good word about Purpura and tell others about McLane.

[Noe]

Purpura was an organization man. He was an Astro. I really hope that he can get another GM job. Hunsicker, who escaped McLane, can put in a good word about Purpura and tell others about McLane.

Using the "failure to sign our draft picks" was especially damaging, but it is being looked very skeptically by the MLB landscape.  McLane has no honor in how he did what he did.  Not in *what* he did, he's entitled as an owner to do as he pleases... but in *how* he did it.

No. Honor.

He acted like sports talk radio caller or a chron blogger would act if he/she were manager if you ask me.

[JimR]

Using the "failure to sing our draft picks" was especially damaging, but it is being looked very skeptically by the MLB landscape.  McLane has no honor in how he did what he did.  Not in *what* he did, he's entitled as an owner to do as he pleases... but in *how* he did it.

No. Honor.

He acted like sports talk radio caller or a chron blogger would act if he/she were manager if you ask me.

two things infuriate me (probably more if truth be told):

1. blaming TP for not signing the picks above slot when that clearly was an ownership business decision

2. admitting in his PC that he formed his opinion listening to sports radio and fans in the stands.

i'm ready for him to sell and to get the hell out.

[JaneDoe]

Using the "failure to sing our draft picks" was especially damaging,

I can just hear it now---
"La, la, la, la, la, la, Dietrich.
La, la, la, la, la, la, Eibner."


AAAAAGGGHHHH!My ears!!

[JaneDoe]

two things infuriate me (probably more if truth be told):

1. blaming TP for not signing the picks above slot when that clearly was an ownership business decision

2. admitting in his PC that he formed his opinion listening to sports radio and fans in the stands.

i'm ready for him to sell and to get the hell out.

AMEN!

[Noe]

two things infuriate me (probably more if truth be told):

1. blaming TP for not signing the picks above slot when that clearly was an ownership business decision

2. admitting in his PC that he formed his opinion listening to sports radio and fans in the stands.

i'm ready for him to sell and to get the hell out.

The second item speaks to his own failing.  But the first was unquestionably placing blame on someone that did not deserve it.  Fire him, that's certainly okay.  But to add injury to the situation by making him look bad is not honorable at all.  It's chickenshit.  Had he just said "Tim and I agreed it was time that we went a different direction and I'm looking forward to working hard with our new GM to cast a vision for this team.  I appreciate the work Tim put in for this organization, but we just felt it was time to make a change.", that would be cool.  No one questions that and if they do, you don't go into the details at all.  Simply say "I don't think we need to go into that, we're looking towards the new day, a new tomorrow and the exciting times ahead".

There are times that cliches are your best friend, especially when you are damaging another man's integrity like that.

[At Ease]

So TP didn't draft these guys?

What exactly did he do?

[Noe]

So TP didn't draft these guys?

What exactly did he do?

He worked with his group and drafted these guys.  They said they wanted X money, then turned around and said they changed their minds and wanted Y money.  McLane said no and then fired Purpura for putting him in the position to say no I guess.

Maybe you should read the Bus Ride section, it's been rehashed over and over exactly what happened.

[At Ease]

He worked with his group and drafted these guys.  They said they wanted X money, then turned around and said they changed their minds and wanted Y money.  McLane said no and then fired Purpura for putting him in the position to say no I guess.

Maybe you should read the Bus Ride section, it's been rehashed over and over exactly what happened.

And perhaps I'm aware of what happened? 

TP decided to draft them.  End of discussion.  He's responsible for getting players into the system with premium round picks.  He chose to draft two guys out high school with a lot of leverage, and unsurprisingly they chose to exercise it.

[JimR]

And perhaps I'm aware of what happened? 

TP decided to draft them.  End of discussion.  He's responsible for getting players into the system with premium round picks.  He chose to draft two guys out high school with a lot of leverage, and unsurprisingly they chose to exercise it.

bullshit.

[pravata]

And perhaps I'm aware of what happened? 

TP decided to draft them.  End of discussion.  He's responsible for getting players into the system with premium round picks.  He chose to draft two guys out high school with a lot of leverage, and unsurprisingly they chose to exercise it.

End of discussion?  Not quite.  Explain, if you can, why Purpura didn't just pay these 3rd and 4th slots, 1st slot money, and inflated 1st slot money at that.  It's not his money.  It's not coming out of his pocket.

[JimR]

they did not "exercise leverage" either. they rolled the dice and lost. some genius advisor convinced them that they had the leverage to get first round money. now they are not playing pro ball and must wait for another draft and hope that they do not harm their reputation as players.

you think Kyle Russell exercised leverage by going back to school?

bullshit.

[The Spleen]

I'm ready for him to sell and to get the hell out.

All of the energy he has devoted to this rampage suggests that his intentions are exactly the opposite.

[juliogotay]

two things infuriate me (probably more if truth be told):

1. blaming TP for not signing the picks above slot when that clearly was an ownership business decision

2. admitting in his PC that he formed his opinion listening to sports radio and fans in the stands.

i'm ready for him to sell and to get the hell out.

I couldn't agree more including your last statement. His act is wearing real thin with me. Leadership is great but it does not solve all problems in BB.

[At Ease]

End of discussion?  Not quite.  Explain, if you can, why Purpura didn't just pay these 3rd and 4th slots, 1st slot money, and inflated 1st slot money at that.  It's not his money.  It's not coming out of his pocket.

I don't know why he didn't pay them.  I'm not an Astros brass, so I haven't a clue.  Perhaps because he wasn't authorized the money.  More likely because they weren't worth that much money.  Perhaps both.  I have no problem with the decision not to pay them what they were asking for, none at all.

My complaint stems from using these two picks on kids that can tell you to piss off and go play major college baseball in the ACC and SEC.  You'd better be damn well sure you can sign them if you're going to use early round picks on kids with that kind of leverage.  He wasn't, and that's something that should be on his hands.  I know some people really like TP, but I don't see why that should preculde an objective analysis of his performance.

[Mr. Happy]

they did not "exercise leverage" either. they rolled the dice and lost. some genius advisor convinced them that they had the leverage to get first round money. now they are not playing pro ball and must wait for another draft and hope that they do not harm their reputation as players.

you think Kyle Russell exercised leverage by going back to school?

bullshit.

You're absolutely correct. Those players got some bad advice. They should have taken the slotted money. They can't go anywhere but down as a practical matter. They've got to be lucky enough to put up good numbers AND stay healthy.

[At Ease]

they did not "exercise leverage" either. they rolled the dice and lost. some genius advisor convinced them that they had the leverage to get first round money. now they are not playing pro ball and must wait for another draft and hope that they do not harm their reputation as players.

you think Kyle Russell exercised leverage by going back to school?

bullshit.

The Astros lost, not these kids.  They'll get a great college experience and the opportunity to play premium collegiate baseball, an experience I'd definitely value over the slot value of 3rd/4th round money.  In three years they'll get another shot at pro baseball.

Russell had a ton of leverage as a draft-eligible sophomore, which is probably why there were rumors that the Cardinals gave into his signing demands the day of the deadline, even though he's never hit well with a wood bat and has such a long swing.  Glad he's returning to UT, though.

[Noe]

And perhaps I'm aware of what happened?

So why did you ask? 

TP decided to draft them.  End of discussion.

Excuse me, did I anywhere said he didn't decide to draft them?

He's responsible for getting players into the system with premium round picks.  He chose to draft two guys out high school with a lot of leverage, and unsurprisingly they chose to exercise it.

Yes.  He said as much.  He also said he'd probably re-think that sort of strategy from now on and focus on College kids.  So what's your point?  No one ever disputed this so why are you bringing this up?

[Ty in Tampa]

The Astros lost, not these kids.  They'll get a great college experience and the opportunity to play premium collegiate baseball, an experience I'd definitely value over the slot value of 3rd/4th round money.  In three years they'll get another shot at pro baseball.

You don't know this and neither do they. They took a chance and now they'll have to roll the dice against injury, reputation, etc. Purpura got screwed, plain and simple.

[Noe]

I don't know why he didn't pay them.  I'm not an Astros brass, so I haven't a clue.

Hence why I kindly pointed to the Bus Ride for you.  Which of course, you declined.

Perhaps because he wasn't authorized the money.  More likely because they weren't worth that much money.  Perhaps both.  I have no problem with the decision not to pay them what they were asking for, none at all.

Purpura said he had them sloted at the money he offered.  And they were okay with it.  And *THEN* changed their mind when advisors came into the scene.  They then asked for money outside the slot money.  Not one scout had these two kids slotted anywhere near the type of money and draft pick they decided they were (as per advisors).  Again, all discussed in the Bus Ride, which you of course declined to go read to answer your questions.

My complaint stems from using these two picks on kids that can tell you to piss off and go play major college baseball in the ACC and SEC.  You'd better be damn well sure you can sign them if you're going to use early round picks on kids with that kind of leverage.  He wasn't, and that's something that should be on his hands.  I know some people really like TP, but I don't see why that should preculde an objective analysis of his performance.

Purpura has a harsh assessment of his performance as well, but he didn't make these choices in a vaccum.  Perhaps the whole scouting system should be blamed, but Purpura took all the blame on that one.  But again, why is this pertinent to what was being discussed.  Please explain.

[At Ease]

So why did you ask? 

Excuse me, did I anywhere said he didn't decide to draft them?

Yes.  He said as much.  He also said he'd probably re-think that sort of strategy from now on and focus on College kids.  So what's your point?  No one ever disputed this so why are you bringing this up?

Well, Noe, a couple posters prior to my response seemed to be expressing incredulity that anyone would blame TP for the lost picks.  The only way I could fathom that is if TP wasn't the one who drafted them, and given that people seem to actually think TP was only McLane's puppet for the past 3 years, I wondered if perhaps that wasn't the case.  Hence my two questions.

Given that we've established TP did draft them, the fact that people still want to absolve him of any responsibility for the outcome there still confuses me.

[pravata]

I don't know why he didn't pay them.  I'm not an Astros brass, so I haven't a clue.  Perhaps because he wasn't authorized the money.  More likely because they weren't worth that much money.  Perhaps both.  I have no problem with the decision not to pay them what they were asking for, none at all.

My complaint stems from using these two picks on kids that can tell you to piss off and go play major college baseball in the ACC and SEC.  You'd better be damn well sure you can sign them if you're going to use early round picks on kids with that kind of leverage.  He wasn't, and that's something that should be on his hands.  I know some people really like TP, but I don't see why that should preculde an objective analysis of his performance.

I believe it's been explained, by people who are in a position to have a clue, that these draft choices were initially open to appropriate slot money but sought counsel late in the process and changed their mind.

[Noe]

You don't know this and neither do they. They took a chance and now they'll have to roll the dice against injury, reputation, etc. Purpura got screwed, plain and simple.

Yup, he admitted it in the Justice interview.  Even Pinwheel admitted that Purpura did nothing wrong, but it did turn out wrong nonetheless.  Hey, but Purpura had a plan B and released Al Pedrique to go with more dinero to the Academies to sign more kids out of that system instead of the usual budget that they set for the Academy signings.  So he wasn't crying over spilt milk and again, why is this pertinent to the discussion about McLane's lack of honor?

[At Ease]

Hence why I kindly pointed to the Bus Ride for you.  Which of course, you declined.

Actually, Noe, my implication was that I had already read the Bus Ride discussions.  They've been quite informative.

[pravata]

Actually, Noe, my implication was that I had already read the Bus Ride discussions.  They've been quite informative.

Then you understand that there are people who know more than you do.  Why aren't you used to that by now?

[Noe]

Well, Noe, a couple posters prior to my response seemed to be expressing incredulity that anyone would blame TP for the lost picks.

Not blame, openly tell the media that he *fired* him for the draft picks failure when he (McLane) knew full well what happened.  McLane can fire anyone he wants and he can do it anytime he wants.  You seem to miss the fine point of what is at issue here: Drayton McLane and his actions speaking louder than words in terms of integrity.  His reason of the draft picks smacks more of a regurgitation of fanspeak, who he himself said he sought counsel from.

He can fire Purpura, that is okay by me.  I've said it over and over and over again.  It is they way he did it that has caused some concern for McLane's integirty by most if not all of those I'm reading.  McLane verbalized the draft picks item as a direct placation to the fans it seems and that is really lacking.

The only way I could fathom that is if TP wasn't the one who drafted them, and given that people seem to actually think TP was only McLane's puppet for the past 3 years, I wondered if perhaps that wasn't the case.  Hence my two questions.

You ask questions that had nothing to do with what was being said.

Given that we've established TP did draft them, the fact that people still want to absolve him of any responsibility for the outcome there still confuses me.

Damn, who absolved him?  The circumstances were there for a failure but it's entirely understandable why it failed.  Kid's changed their minds, owner do not want budget's to be stretched, a GM has to go to Plan B.  Okay, all understandable, because those are mistakes that happen.  But to the fanbase, they reacted to this as a another chapter of incompetence and they let the owner know it.  He cites it as a reason and incredibly so in my opinion.  Fire him, but to purposely try to destroy him given it wasn't as simple as it's entirely on Purpura is beyond me.

McLane is the issue here and what he did.  Actions speak louder than words of character, integrity and honor that the same man loves to throw out there as foundation to what he is.  He took fan and media reaction (He said this) and got rid of the evil man.  He cited Minnesota as a team that was capable of signing kids to slot money.  Nevermind that the entire landscape of the MLB had the same problem that Purpura came up against and just about all of them signed kids for well over the slot money.  And also that Purpura was able to sign one kid that has a higher ceiling according to scouts than the two that got away for slot money, no mention of this as a success in the draft either.  McLane doesn't know this because his counsel, the fans and media, don't know this.  They are all busy blathering on the level of pablum and nothing more.

He (McLane) should perhaps talk to his baseball people more often as he does the fans he glad-hands and maybe, just maybe... he'll learn something and not just act like a man without honor.

[Noe]

I believe it's been explained, by people who are in a position to have a clue, that these draft choices were initially open to appropriate slot money but sought counsel late in the process and changed their mind.

Yes, over and over and over and over again.  Why doesn't the trek over to the Bus Ride to read sound like a bad idea if interest in the information is what is sought?

I thought I was helping with that suggestion?

[pravata]

Yes, over and over and over and over again.  Why doesn't the trek over to the Bus Ride to read sound like a bad idea if interest in the information is what is sought?

I thought I was helping with that suggestion?

You can lead a horse to water but you cant hold its head under the water until the bubbles stop.

[VirtualBob]

You can lead a horse to water but you cant hold its head under the water until the bubbles stop.

Can we at least try?

[pravata]

Can we at least try?

Knock yourself out, but they'll just buy a $7 ticket, stand in the concourse and go, "boooooooo!". 

[At Ease]

I believe it's been explained, by people who are in a position to have a clue, that these draft choices were initially open to appropriate slot money but sought counsel late in the process and changed their mind.

Uh.. yes, I'm aware they exercised their leverage.  The point of contention was why draft kids who could bend you over in the first place?  TP already seems to have ceded this was a mistake, from his change in strategy comments.

Can't you go make yourself useful on google or something?

[pravata]

Uh.. yes, I'm aware they exercised their leverage.  The point of contention was why draft kids who could bend you over in the first place?  TP already seems to have ceded this was a mistake, from his change in strategy comments.

Can't you go make yourself useful on google or something?

Immensely.  But, at the moment I'm exposing how you've made two admissions, one, that you are clueless, and two that there are others who know what they're talking about.  And the people who know what they're talking about have explained that those draft choices changed their minds. 

[At Ease]

And the people who know what they're talking about have explained that those draft choices changed their minds. 

Which remains, yet again, irrelevant.  Nothing like regurgitating a tangental factoid to the discussion at hand, to put someone in their place.

[pravata]

Which remains, yet again, irrelevant.  Nothing like regurgitating a tangental factoid to the discussion at hand, to put someone in their place.

Irrelevant? People who have a clue dont think so.  Not unless Purpura is a mind reader or is paying draft choices out of his own pocket.  Who pays the draft choices?

[Noe]

Immensely.  But, at the moment I'm exposing how you've made two admissions, one, that you are clueless, and two that there are others who know what they're talking about.  And the people who know what they're talking about have explained that those draft choices changed their minds. 

Yes, they did.   Short of holding a gun to their head, you can't do anything about it.  Same goes with free agency.  But again, McLane can fire anyone for any reason.  And when he got rid of Hunsicker, it certainly was honorable they way they did it.  McLane and Hunsicker did not like each other.  McLane did not publicily blame Hunsicker for anything, Hunsicker said nice things about him for the opportunity.  But they did not like each other.

Purpura was a man who did as much to implement what McLane wanted and make it work.  So instead of getting rid of Purpura in a fashion that would allow him some dignity, he says some stupid fan-based crap about the draft.  This is a guy who did not dislike him.  The booing that happened at the Bagwell ceremony (and the Biggio one) really was the last straw and it was all fan initiated and McLane listened to  them.  McLane allowed it to get to him and he reacted harshly against two good men.  All the other stuff is window dressing, the real issue here is that McLane acted in such a dishonorable way in all this.

Amazing.

[Noe]

Irrelevant? People who have a clue dont think so.  Not unless Purpura is a mind reader or is paying draft choices out of his own pocket.  Who pays the draft choices?

Let's go another route here why don't we.  McLane fired Phil Garner, a man who had not lost the clubhouse and was trying hard everyday to bring the winning to the forefront for the team.  One of the big complaints from fans and media alike is the use of Craig Biggio for most of the year even though in the eyes of those fans Biggio had no business being on the field.  Some of those media and fans blamed Garner for pencilling in Biggio's name in the scorecard.

Yes, McLane had nothing to do with Biggio being in there to chase the record and the HOF assurance.  Instead, it's all on Phil says the media and fans.  So McLane listens to the fans and now Phil is gone.  Why?  McLane didn't say.  But the fans are grateful.  So is Baseball Prospectus.

[At Ease]

Irrelevant? People who have a clue dont think so.  Not unless Purpura is a mind reader or is paying draft choices out of his own pocket.  Who pays the draft choices?

Yeah, the outcome is irrelevant.  It was a poor decision to utilize your first two draft picks on high-risk signs (which is what you would have to call trying to sign two high schoolers away from major college ball without any pre-draft agreement), when you've already lost your top two picks to FA signings.  It would still be a poor decision, even if both the kids signed for slot value.

As you said, being wrong and didn't work are two different things.  This is one case where they unfortunately overlapped.

[pravata]

Yes, they did.   Short of holding a gun to their head, you can't do anything about it.  Same goes with free agency.  But again, McLane can fire anyone for any reason.  And when he got rid of Hunsicker, it certainly was honorable they way they did it.  McLane and Hunsicker did not like each other.  McLane did not public blame Hunsicker for anything, Hunsicker said nice things about him for the opportunity.  But they did not like each other.

Purpura was a man who did as much to implement what McLane wanted and make it work.  So instead of getting rid of Purpura in a fashion that would allow him some dignity, he says some stupid fan-based crap about the draft.  This is a guy who did not dislike him.  The booing that happened at the Bagwell ceremony (and the Biggio one) really was the last straw and it was all fan initiated and McLane listened to  them.

Amazing.

Because, surprisingly, after all these years, turns out, for all his height and pink shirts, Drayton Mclane values his dignity over any thing else. 

[pravata]

Yeah, the outcome is irrelevant.  It was a poor decision to utilize your first two draft picks on high-risk signs (which is what you would have to call trying to sign two high schoolers away from major college ball without any pre-draft agreement), when you've already lost your top two picks to FA signings.  It would still be a poor decision, even if both the kids signed for slot value.

As you said, being wrong and didn't work are two different things.  This is one case where they unfortunately overlapped.

Are you still arguing?  You've already admitted you have no clue.

[At Ease]

Are you still arguing?  You've already admitted you have no clue.

Librarian humor?  Score one for prav, I guess. 

[Noe]

Are you still arguing?  You've already admitted you have no clue.

And they would probably welcome the opportunity to rehash yet again the draft at the Bus Ride.  Why is it an item here? 

[pravata]

Librarian humor?  Score one for prav, I guess. 

That's just pitiful.  You're on ignore.

[MusicMan]

two things infuriate me (probably more if truth be told):

1. blaming TP for not signing the picks above slot when that clearly was an ownership business decision

2. admitting in his PC that he formed his opinion listening to sports radio and fans in the stands.

i'm ready for him to sell and to get the hell out.

To get back on topic... point two and conclusion are indisputable.

McLane built up a hell of a lot of goodwill in 2004 and 2005.  He's pissing it away at an amazing rate.

[Noe]

Because, surprisingly, after all these years, turns out, for all his height and pink shirts, Drayton Mclane values his dignity over any thing else. 

You nailed it the other day when you said that seeking out character in the players he wants to employ is something perhaps McLane should look in the mirror about.  Actions do speak as loud as words.  One blogger stated that McLane was trying to "restore credibility".  Firing a villian in the eyes of the media and fandom is what goes for restoring credibility nowadays I suppose.

[Noe]

To get back on topic... point two and conclusion are indisputable.

McLane built up a hell of a lot of goodwill in 2004 and 2005.  He's pissing it away at an amazing rate.

My own perception, clouded as it may be of course, is that the same crowd that McLane spent time shaking hands with in the concourse are the same that will turn on him if winning isn't the direct result of this action.  Especially if he doesn't open the wallet and goes out and signs A-Rod in the minds of the same great unwashed.  And trade for Johann Santana (trade them Adam Everett, that kills two birds with one stone).

[pravata]

You nailed it the other day when you said that seeking out character in the players he wants to employ is something perhaps McLane should look in the mirror about.  Actions do speak as loud as words.  One blogger stated that McLane was trying to "restore credibility".  Firing a villian in the eyes of the media and fandom is what goes for restoring credibility nowadays I suppose.

Whose credibility?  Certainly many GMs and Managers have been fired, not many the way Mclane did it, but "apres moi" and all that.  He's entitled.  But projecting his failings on someone else, it's not dignified at all.

[At Ease]

And they would probably welcome the opportunity to rehash yet again the draft at the Bus Ride.  Why is it an item here? 

Cute they reference.

You should read the whole thread, Noe.  Jim said he was infuriated that they blamed TP for not signing the picks above slot.  My posts have questioned this. 

[Noe]

Cute they reference.

You're still talking about the draft, so go and do so.

You should read the whole thread, Noe.

Read it?  I practically wrote half of it!

Jim said he was infuriated that they blamed TP for not signing the picks above slot.

In response to what pray tell?  Oh yeah, in response to McLane, not Purpura.  No one said that Purpura was clean nor should not be fired.  What was said was blaming in terms of actually saying it in public to ruin the man's career (or try).  Here, let me help you:

JimR
"he (Purpura) worked his entire career to be a GM, and he had his dream job. i do not believe he had a fair chance to make his own decisions. i am afraid he is so damaged by McLane's actions and comments that getting another GM position will be very difficult. i think McLane ruined him, and i hate it."

See there is context for what Jim and I were talking about: Drayton McLane and our dissappointment in the man's lack of honor.  You want to talk about the draft and how much blame Purpura should be given, knock yourself out at the Bus Ride.  You want to talk McLane is justified in publically saying Purpura was fired for failure in the draft (knowing full well that he, McLane, had a hand in the decision... it was not done in a vaccuum), then say so.  But you haven't... yet.  You keep talking about the draft.

So is it because of JimR that you're participating in this thread or because you want to say that McLane is honorable to say this sort of thing in public and that Jim is wrong for saying that McLane's actions and comments damaged Purpura?  Because *THAT* is what we're talking about.  Try to keep up.

My posts have questioned this. 

No, you've asked about the draft and what happened.  Some have answered and I personally would like you to go read for yourself in the Bus Ride.  Don't do it, do it, I don't really care.  But you're not talking about anything JimR has said, IMHO.  Nor anything I've said either.

[At Ease]

Read it?  I practically wrote half of it!

Heh, indeed.

You want to talk McLane is justified in publically saying Purpura was fired for failure in the draft (knowing full well that he, McLane, had a hand in the decision... it was not done in a vaccuum), then say so.  But you haven't... yet.  You keep talking about the draft.

Yes, Noe.  The context of everything I've been saying is that McLane is justified in publicly citing the draft shortcomings as a reason for TP's dismissal. 

You're quite right, the draft was not done in a vacuum.  But the grocer is well within reason to hold his GM accountable for putting him in a position where he'd have to inordinately stretch his wallet to sign these two kids.

[Noe]

Yes, Noe.  The context of everything I've been saying is that McLane is justified in publicly citing the draft shortcomings as a reason for TP's dismissal.

Good, that's all you needed to add.  And shows the type of class you lack too.  IMHO of course.  Because McLane said he spoke to fans about these things, so he's basically speaking to them and disavowing a man's career in doing so.  He cared very little about a good man and decided it was more important to speak to the vocal majority or minority to placate them.  Sad that you agree with this, but that's your right. 

[Arky Vaughan]

I couldn't agree more including your last statement. His act is wearing real thin with me. Leadership is great but it does not solve all problems in BB.

And taking your cue from folks in the stands doesn't constitute leadership.

[Noe]

And taking your cue from folks in the stands doesn't constitute leadership.

It's great business sense though and no one ever said McLane was a bad business man.  They say that the best owners have a lot of "fan" in them when they make decisions for baseball sake.  It's a fine line for sure.  McLane is also said to be very competitive.  I'm sure that's true as well.  But I'm sure he's learned his competitiveness in terms of being a successful businessman.  So McLane isn't necessary, IMHO, a fan.  He's a competitor and a business man and the fan to him means revenue and revenue means winning.  But using that revenue to create a winning atmosphere has in some ways been shaded by perception McLane has from the days of a full MMPUS, Beltran going crazy for a playoff, a 16th inning homerun, classic NLCS battles with the Co-Ards and of course the first time going to the World Series.  McLane thinks that the fans who cheered loudly have a clue how to get him back to that frenzy?  No fans basically know how to cheer or boo loudly and that is about it.

No, baseball men get him there, fans should be just fans.  Fans however have gradually started to wedge themselves into the story.  Petitions, blogs, intrusion.  I guess in the Northeast it's normal, here... well, it's a learning process to learn to ignore most of the fan input and to make sure you keep them around mainly because your baseball men are trying to help put a winner on the field.  McLane is not very keen to make that distinction so it seems.  And ironically, he'll be hearing from the same fans he's admiring now when they boo not the GM but the owner for putting an inferior team on the field and not opening the wallet to sign every high priced free agent available.

There is no stopping now Drayton.

[At Ease]

Good, that's all you needed to add.  And shows the type of class you lack too.  IMHO of course.  Because McLane said he spoke to fans about these things, so he's basically speaking to them and disavowing a man's career in doing so.  He cared very little about a good man and decided it was more important to speak to the vocal majority or minority to placate them.  Sad that you agree with this, but that's your right. 

Sorry, I don't see anything wrong with an owner explaining to his fanbase why he's made a major personnel move.  These are public figures, open to constant evaluation.  McLane also has a vested interest in appearing sympathetic to those who fill his coffers, so I think you'll just have to accept that..   Does that make me a classless asshole?  No, the fact that I like to intimidate the elderly does.

Disavowing a man's career and caring very little about a good man seems a little hyperbolic, don't you think?  TP's future career will be dictated by his 14 years with the Astros, not a press conference that will be long forgotten within a week.

[pravata]

There is no stopping now Drayton.

Right, and if he's taking his cues from the wannabee northeastern emulating fans, he's got two options; he can, like the Boston owners, turn the team over to a management team who is on record, and in print, giving a rats furry bohunkas what the fans say, and run the team like professional baseball executives who have respect for their expertise, or he can, like the Yankee owners, crack open the wallet to it's upright and locked position and take action and not just talk about becoming a champion TODAY and start buying; Alex Rodriguez and Johan Santana would be a good start, Mr Big Talker.

[Noe]

Right, and if he's taking his cues from the wannabee northeastern emulating fans, he's got two options; he can, like the Boston owners, turn the team over to a management team who is on record, and in print, giving a rats furry bohunkas what the fans say, and run the team like professional baseball executives who have respect for their expertise, or he can, like the Yankee owners, crack open the wallet to it's upright and locked position and take action and not just talk about becoming a champion TODAY and start buying; Alex Rodriguez and Johan Santana would be a good start, Mr Big Talker.

Eggszactly!

[Noe]

Whose credibility?  Certainly many GMs and Managers have been fired, not many the way Mclane did it, but "apres moi" and all that.  He's entitled.  But projecting his failings on someone else, it's not dignified at all.

Jayson Stark:

"But his last GM, Gerry Hunsicker, up and quit three years ago because he'd had enough of McLane's meddling in the baseball side of the operation. And so little has changed since that day that it's difficult to evaluate Purpura's reign as GM, because we'll never know how many decisions were really made by the general manager.

We do know it was the owner's doing, not the GM's, that the Astros weren't allowed to sign their top two draft picks this year -- because it was the owner who was determined to please his good friend, Bud Selig, and not pay "above slot."

So if that's the philosophy, you lose the right to point fingers at the GM when the farm system starts to thin out. Don't you?"

(He goes on to say that Purpura did enough to be on the chopping block all on his own and I agree.  McLane has every right to fire him.  I still contend that the draft failure was the fan talk that McLane used to reach out to them and "restore credibility" as a chron blogger put it.  That is why he mentioned it without fear of being contradicted.  Plenty of folks willing to give him the benefit of the doubt simply because it means they get rid of Purpura in the process.  What a shame.)

[tophfar]

Yes, over and over and over and over again.  Why doesn't the trek over to the Bus Ride to read sound like a bad idea if interest in the information is what is sought?

I thought I was helping with that suggestion?

It's because he/she isn't interested in actually finding out what the truth is.  He/She, like others, simply want to know what information they need to avoid so they can continue their lives in ignorance.

[At Ease]

It's because he/she isn't interested in actually finding out what the truth is.  He/She, like others, simply want to know what information they need to avoid so they can continue their lives in ignorance.

Do enlighten us, tophfar, with where the facts have gone awry.  If you too choose to stroke your inflated sense of self-worth, at least grace us with some substance.

[MusicMan]

Disavowing a man's career and caring very little about a good man seems a little hyperbolic, don't you think?  TP's future career will be dictated by his 14 years with the Astros, not a press conference that will be long forgotten within a week.

So if you worked somewhere for 14 years, you wouldn't mind if your employer wrote a nasty and unfounded performance report on your way out?

[JimR]

Cute they reference.

You should read the whole thread, Noe.  Jim said he was infuriated that they blamed TP for not signing the picks above slot.  My posts have questioned this. 

ignorantly

[Noe]

So if you worked somewhere for 14 years, you wouldn't mind if your employer wrote a nasty and unfounded performance report on your way out?

And it was based on his listening in to the UPS guy talking to the mail clerk at the water cooler saying how much they disliked how you performed on that last transaction you were involved in?  The transaction that the employer was the one who mandated you do not sign a contract if it goes over a certain threshold?

[jbm]

I agree that McLane is demonstrating very poor character in throwing TP under the bus for the draft.  Listening to that interview, he also seems like a poor decision maker when he implies that teams, like the Twins, always sign for the slot. 

Just think about it.  If they always sign for the slot, then I bet they often choose someone who may not be at the top of their board, just to insure signability.  Adhering to this philosophy over many drafts and picks does nothing but limit your upside, alldue to a self imposed philosophy.  Since the Twins are good talent evaluators, who knows who they might have picked and signed without such a rigorous mandate.

In my view, you should always be flexible enough to sign above slot, and therefore consider riskier signees, but disciplined enough that if the demands are beyond reason, you step back and invest that capital elsewhere.  Just as the Astros did in 07. 

So, this pisses me off in two ways:  Drayton's classlessness and the fact that he is advocating a strategy that limits the potential of the draft.

btw.  I wouldn't argue that TP's "admission" about turning to college guys without leverage was anything more than a realization by TP that "if this son of a bitch is so inflexible with signing guys, I'll embrace this limiting and low-risk strategy."

[Astroholic]

I agree that McLane is demonstrating very poor character in throwing TP under the bus for the draft.  Listening to that interview, he also seems like a poor decision maker when he implies that teams, like the Twins, always sign for the slot. 

Just think about it.  If they always sign for the slot, then I bet they often choose someone who may not be at the top of their board, just to insure signability.  Adhering to this philosophy over many drafts and picks does nothing but limit your upside, alldue to a self imposed philosophy.  Since the Twins are good talent evaluators, who knows who they might have picked and signed without such a rigorous mandate.

In my view, you should always be flexible enough to sign above slot, and therefore consider riskier signees, but disciplined enough that if the demands are beyond reason, you step back and invest that capital elsewhere.  Just as the Astros did in 07. 

So, this pisses me off in two ways:  Drayton's classlessness and the fact that he is advocating a strategy that limits the potential of the draft.

btw.  I wouldn't argue that TP's "admission" about turning to college guys without leverage was anything more than a realization by TP that "if this son of a bitch is so inflexible with signing guys, I'll embrace this limiting and low-risk strategy."

Umm.. I thought that Patton was signed outside of the "slot".  So what was Drayton thinking back then?


BTW. this "slot" sure seems like collusion to me.

[Jacksonian]

Umm.. I thought that Patton was signed outside of the "slot".  So what was Drayton thinking back then?

Sarcasm?

I'm debating whether to jump into this again.

[Astroholic]

Sarcasm?

I'm debating whether to jump into this again.

I don't think you need to.  I just don't care for Drayton any longer and am looking for anything I can find that might contradict what he is spewing.

[jbm]

I'm not sure of your point.  Patton was probably singed within the range the Astros valued him.  However, you are right about Drayton paying above slot for Patton, but apparently he now thinks that is a crime, since I just heard an interview where he strongly implied that signing above the slot is not in his gameplan.  He mentioned, probably erroneously, that 95% of the teams sign at slot, and then went on to describe how the Twins never exceed slot and look at them.  Maybe I am misreading him, but I doubt he plans on many more Patton signings.  Another negative consequence of this self-imposed philosophy.

[Astroholic]

I'm not sure of your point.  Patton was probably singed within the range the Astros valued him.  However, you are right about Drayton paying above slot for Patton, but apparently he now thinks that is a crime, since I just heard an interview where he strongly implied that signing above the slot is not in his gameplan.  He mentioned, probably erroneously, that 95% of the teams sign at slot, and then went on to describe how the Twins never exceed slot and look at them.  Maybe I am misreading him, but I doubt he plans on many more Patton signings.  Another negative consequence of this self-imposed philosophy.

I think you got my point (I am not a good point maker).  I think Drayton is nothing more than a two bit snake oil salesman that hides behind his mighty Baylor boy southern Baptist facade. NTTAWWT

[MusicMan]

BTW. this "slot" sure seems like collusion to me.

It would be, if MLBPA took action on it.  But these aren't MLBPA members being affected.

[Taras Bulba]

I think you got my point (I am not a good point maker).  I think Drayton is nothing more than a two bit snake oil salesman that hides behind his mighty Baylor boy southern Baptist facade. NTTAWWT

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

[pravata]

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

Payroll has gone up significantly every year.  He brought Clemens, Pettitte, Kent, Lee to the team.  Paid to retain Bagwell, Biggio, and Oswalt.  He has panicked. 

[Astroholic]

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

Yep.  Does not take long to tarnish ones image.  Funny thing is that many of "the sheep" that are supporting this move did not like Drayton before because he "would not spend money".

[JimR]

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

not exactly right, but what changed in here was driven by him. he acted like a very bad, untruthful guy.

meddling owner should be added to your description, then and now.

[Astroholic]

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

Damn, I just realized..I am sound more and more like HD everyday.

[MusicMan]

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

Generous?  Financially, yes.  There's no issue with the payroll.

Meddlesome?  He brought a murky problem into specific relief this week.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

not exactly right, but what changed in here was driven by him. he acted like a very bad, untruthful guy.

meddling owner should be added to your description, then and now.

Meddling owner who generally did the right thing.  This brought that trend to a crashing hault.  I guess I'm just a mindless sheep (NTTAWT in Aggieland!) but I used to defend him and now I won't.  He's no better than any other corporate schlub who wants everyone to think he's likeable and is interested in their well being.  He will never, nor has he ever, made a decision that did not benefit the bottom line.  That's his only criteria.  When the root cause is his personal involvement in talent decisions he opts to fire those who's decisions he over-rode.  Nothing I loathe more than corporate assholes who can't do the work themselves but take credit for successes and deflect blame for failures.

[Jacksonian]

since I just heard an interview where he strongly implied that signing above the slot is not in his gameplan.  

If he said this then he is a liar.

He was fully prepared to sign Jones way above slot money.

[Noe]

I agree that McLane is demonstrating very poor character in throwing TP under the bus for the draft.  Listening to that interview, he also seems like a poor decision maker when he implies that teams, like the Twins, always sign for the slot. 

Just think about it.  If they always sign for the slot, then I bet they often choose someone who may not be at the top of their board, just to insure signability.  Adhering to this philosophy over many drafts and picks does nothing but limit your upside, alldue to a self imposed philosophy.  Since the Twins are good talent evaluators, who knows who they might have picked and signed without such a rigorous mandate.

In my view, you should always be flexible enough to sign above slot, and therefore consider riskier signees, but disciplined enough that if the demands are beyond reason, you step back and invest that capital elsewhere.  Just as the Astros did in 07. 

So, this pisses me off in two ways:  Drayton's classlessness and the fact that he is advocating a strategy that limits the potential of the draft.

btw.  I wouldn't argue that TP's "admission" about turning to college guys without leverage was anything more than a realization by TP that "if this son of a bitch is so inflexible with signing guys, I'll embrace this limiting and low-risk strategy."

Very well said.  Kudos!

[Noe]

I'm not sure of your point.  Patton was probably singed within the range the Astros valued him. 

Correct.  Purpura admitted he valued the kid from Ohio at the money he offered.  And that was a consensus from all the information he got from the scouts and also the general consensus from just about anybody who does evaluation for the draft (draft services?).  What he offered Patton was what he was valued at.  What he offered these two kids was what they were valued at (and that was about where the slot money fell).  What he offered Chad Jones was above slot but budgeted money that was in place.  Jones wanted much more.

So the kids went to college.  Purpura then admitted, much like every single GM admitted by giving waaaaay above slot, is that high school kids and advisors now have a hand to play to get more money than expected.  The MLBPA is looking at this and licking their chops.  If a non-member, unproven kid can ask for and recieve waaaay above slot, then mid-level guys in the rank and file should benefit from it and that is how a Gary Mathews Jr. becomes a 55 million dollar man.

Purpura had a plan B and that was to go to the Academies.  His strategic change is to start looking at college kids more often to send the clear message to these advisors and kids.  Same message I'm sure many of the other GMs, who again made the same mistake but cover it up by actually paying the well above slot amount of money, want to send next draft as well.

[Astroholic]

Meddling owner who generally did the right thing.  This brought that trend to a crashing hault.  I guess I'm just a mindless sheep (NTTAWT in Aggieland!) but I used to defend him and now I won't.  He's no better than any other corporate schlub who wants everyone to think he's likeable and is interested in their well being.  He will never, nor has he ever, made a decision that did not benefit the bottom line.  That's his only criteria.  When the root cause is his personal involvement in talent decisions he opts to fire those who's decisions he over-rode.  Nothing I loathe more than corporate assholes who can't do the work themselves but take credit for successes and deflect blame for failures.

Well Said.

[Noe]

A week or really mere days ago, Drayton wasn't such a bad guy, in fact he was thought by many in here to be a fairly generous owner. 

A week ago, he never admitted he listened to fans at the concourse at the MMPUS and also those who were classless jerks to boo during a ceremony for Bagwell and Biggio.  McLane's reaction is what is the problem here and it may speak to a character flaw indeed.

McLane should've fired Garner and Purpura without saying a damn word about the fans and spouting stupid stuff that he thinks are reasons.  He would be fine now if he did.

[jbm]

If he said this then he is a liar.

He was fully prepared to sign Jones way above slot money.

At the chronicle site, there is a link for a Justice interview of Tal and Drayton.  About five minutes into the interview, Justice and Drayton are talking about slot money.  Drayton doesn't actually say "I will obey the slot," but he does go on a speil about the Twins who supposedly never go above slot and are successful, and then he mentions Oakland.  I was left with the impression that the As also don't go above slot, but it was never actually stated.  At any rate, it might be that Drayton is still willing to exceed slot, but he certainly seemed like a fan of it in the interview. 

[Jacksonian]

At the chronicle site, there is a link for a Justice interview of Tal and Drayton.  About five minutes into the interview, Justice and Drayton are talking about slot money.  Drayton doesn't actually say "I will obey the slot," but he does go on a speil about the Twins who supposedly never go above slot and are successful, and then he mentions Oakland.  I was left with the impression that the As also don't go above slot, but it was never actually stated.  At any rate, it might be that Drayton is still willing to exceed slot, but he certainly seemed like a fan of it in the interview. 

Ok, if that's how he wants to play it then he should have never hired Purpura.  He needs a GM with Hun's drafting philosophy not Purp's.

[Noe]

At the chronicle site, there is a link for a Justice interview of Tal and Drayton.  About five minutes into the interview, Justice and Drayton are talking about slot money.  Drayton doesn't actually say "I will obey the slot," but he does go on a speil about the Twins who supposedly never go above slot and are successful, and then he mentions Oakland.  I was left with the impression that the As also don't go above slot, but it was never actually stated.  At any rate, it might be that Drayton is still willing to exceed slot, but he certainly seemed like a fan of it in the interview. 

The Twins have a great GM, better than anyone in the business including Schuerholz at Atlanta.  Terry Ryan is really the best there is.  And he works for a penny-pincher of an owner but not a meddler.  Ryan runs the Twins, Pohlan just makes sure that money is not spent.  But Ryan also knows how to draft even the high end player.  When he had the top choice, he avoided Mark Prior and signed Joe Mauer instead.  He got heat from everyone that he made the worse choice going for a high school catcher instead of an established college pitcher who was one step away from the majors.  But Mauer was more signable than Prior and also a local kid.