Bright spots from tonight's game (fiasco?)

[94CougarGrad]

Yeah, there are a couple.

Biggio hit the 53rd leadoff homer and the 664th double of his career, which scored Ausmus and Palmeiro. Pigpen is now one double away from tying George Brett for 5th on the all-time doubles list.

JD also said that Ausmus had a good night tonight, with a couple of singles, a walk, and a double for his final hit of the night, but commented that his performance would be forgotten in the midst of this loss.

[Frobie]

One bright spot is that I will get to eat a meal at Damian's since, according to the wife, that's what it's going to cost me for making her stay until to the bitter end tonight.

The downside, of course, is that I am going to have to pay for it.

[ValpoCory]

Biggio is one extra base hit away from tying Hornsby atop the all-time second baseman XBH list:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsl_finder.cgi#n1=&as=result_batter&offset=0&sum=1&min_year_season=1901&max_year_season=2007&isActive=either&isHOF=either&bats=any&throws=any&games_prop=50&games_tot=&exactness=everymarked&pos_second_base=1&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minpasValS=502&mingamesValS=100&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minpasValC=3000&mingamesValC=1000&c1val=0&c2val=0&c3val=0&c4val=0&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&orderby=XBH&layout=minimal&c1bsl=XBH&c1gtlt=gt&c2bsl=&c2gtlt=gt&c3bsl=&c3gtlt=gt&c4bsl=&c4gtlt=gt&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=

[Astroholic]

Biggio is one extra base hit away from tying Hornsby atop the all-time second baseman XBH list:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsl_finder.cgi#n1=&as=result_batter&offset=0&sum=1&min_year_season=1901&max_year_season=2007&isActive=either&isHOF=either&bats=any&throws=any&games_prop=50&games_tot=&exactness=everymarked&pos_second_base=1&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minpasValS=502&mingamesValS=100&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minpasValC=3000&mingamesValC=1000&c1val=0&c2val=0&c3val=0&c4val=0&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&orderby=XBH&layout=minimal&c1bsl=XBH&c1gtlt=gt&c2bsl=&c2gtlt=gt&c3bsl=&c3gtlt=gt&c4bsl=&c4gtlt=gt&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=

Quite.  You are going to piss little Joe off.

[Limey]

Quite.  You are going to piss little Joe off.

Joe will say that Biggio isn't a second baseman: he's a catcher/outfielder who played some 2B.

[Froback]

No he will point out that Biggio never helped carry his team to a World Series Title or something like that, so his partner can chime in "So how many World Series Titles did you win?"

[Astroholic]

No he will point out that Biggio never helped carry his team to a World Series Title or something like that, so his partner can chime in "So how many World Series Titles did you win?"

Yep I am aware that Joe would find some way to make himself look better.  He really thinks he was the best secondbaseman to ever play the game.

[WulawHorn]

Yep I am aware that Joe would find some way to make himself look better.  He really thinks he was the best secondbaseman to ever play the game.

see- the thing is he probably was the best second baseman to ever play the game- at least in the modern era. 

That doesn't stop him from being a trainwreck as an anouncer and a douchebag as a human being, however, which he seems to be both of (at least from his public persona/remarks).

Just an example of another mediot guy with nothing worthwhile to say. There's professionals like that and there's former ball players like that.

[JimR]

see- the thing is he probably was the best second baseman to ever play the game- at least in the modern era. 

That doesn't stop him from being a trainwreck as an anouncer and a douchebag as a human being, however, which he seems to be both of (at least from his public persona/remarks).

Just an example of another mediot guy with nothing worthwhile to say. There's professionals like that and there's former ball players like that.

the best second baseman to play the game in the modern era is named Mazeroski.

[VirtualBob]

see- the thing is he probably was the best second baseman to ever play the game- at least in the modern era. 

I hope I missed the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags ... Mazeroski set the standard and while Morgan is in the top 10 easily, I expect he is near the middle of that group and nowhere near the Maz.  

If you wanted to come up with an impenatrable infield, you would start with Brooks Robinson at 3rd and Maz at 2nd.  There would be several candidates at SS, but I would probably give Ozzie Smith the nod.  (AE might overtake him if he stays strong for another 5-10 years.)  There are multiple possiblities at 1B, too, but I think Keith Hernandez beats out Bagwell and a number of others.  I doubt if Morgan even makes third string on this depth chart.

[VirtualBob]

the best second baseman to play the game in the modern era is named Mazeroski.

Oops ... I got long-winded and you scooped me.

[WulawHorn]

the best second baseman to play the game in the modern era is named Mazeroski.

Sorry- I was not adhering to the OWA credo of a second baseman is simply a defensive position. I was not trying to say that Joe Morgan was the best glove second baseman, just the best overall combination of bat and glove to ever play the vast majority of his games in the field at 2b- better?

[JimR]

Sorry- I was not adhering to the OWA credo of a second baseman is simply a defensive position. I was not trying to say that Joe Morgan was the best glove second baseman, just the best overall combination of bat and glove to ever play the vast majority of his games in the field at 2b- better?

he was a hitter and baserunner, not a great defender.

[Astroholic]

Sorry- I was not adhering to the OWA credo of a second baseman is simply a defensive position. I was not trying to say that Joe Morgan was the best glove second baseman, just the best overall combination of bat and glove to ever play the vast majority of his games in the field at 2b- better?

If you are going to use that reasoning, then you must concider one J. Kent.

[WulawHorn]

If you are going to use that reasoning, then you must concider one J. Kent.

I don't know that he did all the things at a higher level then his contemporaries at the position. In the era kent played in a lot of 2b slugged a lot of HR's. Kent did it for a longer period of time, but biggio hit about 300, sandber hit about 300, and indiivdual guys in between had plenty of 20-30 HR seasons.  Jeff Kent should get serious hall of fame consideration. I just don't know if he was above and beyond enough, relative to his era, to talk about him as any better than bottom half of the top 10 (like maybe just barely squeeking in) of 2b (again not purely defensive just someone whose name was written in at 2b on the lineup card).  Of course, if you are arguing if a guy is in the top 10 of his position that is damn fine place. Not Joe Morgan level in my opinion.

[WulawHorn]

he was a hitter and baserunner, not a great defender.

Jim-

Never saw him play, so I'm going off what I've read and heard not what I've seen. My dad said he's on of the best players he's ever seen, but I didn't ever really ask him about fielding per se. I'll have to defer to you on that as you've obviously seen him play way more than I (which is not at all)

[JimR]

Jim-

Never saw him play, so I'm going off what I've read and heard not what I've seen. My dad said he's on of the best players he's ever seen, but I didn't ever really ask him about fielding per se. I'll have to defer to you on that as you've obviously seen him play way more than I (which is not at all)

wait! you never saw him play but you are saying he is the best of the modern era?

he was very, very good but "one of the best he has ever seen?" was he a Cincy fan?

[Andyzipp]

wait! you never saw him play but you are saying he is the best of the modern era?

he was very, very good but "one of the best he has ever seen?" was he a Cincy fan?

He has seen Morgan and Dale Berra and Buddy Biancalana.

[WulawHorn]

wait! you never saw him play but you are saying he is the best of the modern era?

he was very, very good but "one of the best he has ever seen?" was he a Cincy fan?

Statistical comparrison's and Conventional Wisdom was what I was relyinig upon.

Really, it was a throw away comment in response to the poster who was saying Joe was making comments to make people believe he was better than what he was. All I was saying is that MANY people have argued he was one of the best players (offensive, baserunning, defense combination) to ever play the vast majority of his games at 2b. His comments about others like biggio- to me are not necessarily self serving, more indicative that he is a shitty anouncer and quite possibly a shitty human being.  That was the essential thrust of where I was going with my initial post.

No- dad wasn't a cincy fan he was a giants fan. Morgan was more or less past his prime when he played in SF so it wasn't coming from there. Cincy was in the west as was houston so maybe he did a lot of damage against the gints- I don't know. It's not like you had every game around the league at your fingertips, or even hilight shows then.  And the fact that little joe won 2 MVP's and finished high up in various other years would lead me to believe he was one of the best players of his era. That and all the all star apperances, back before the all star game was a fan ballot popularity contest I believe (but I may well be wrong on when the fans took over selection of the teams).

I think Bill James has him #1 or #2 on his list of all time 2b. I've never seen anyone put together a list that has hiim out of the top 5 at that position.  Again- I don't think it's that his comments are self serving, I think he is a shitty journalist.

[Astroholic]

  Again- I don't think it's that his comments are self serving, I think he is a shitty journalist.

This right here is where the disagreement between you and I is.  I think he is very self serving in his comments, though he is shitty as well.

[Andyzipp]

Again- I don't think it's that his comments are self serving, I think he is a shitty journalist.

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

[WulawHorn]

This right here is where the disagreement between you and I is.  I think he is very self serving in his comments, though he is shitty as well.

Fair enough- I have my opinion and you yours. I don't know that it is possible to ever know the truth of the statement as that would go to intent and neither of us can see into the mans heart/mind. Probably a good thing you can't see into his mind.

[WulawHorn]

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

Nope, never was intending to argue that they were. I just don't think he's trying to be self serving. I could well indeed be wrong.

[Andyzipp]

Nope, never was intending to argue that they were. I just don't think he's trying to be self serving. I could well indeed be wrong.

I would agree with you, if (and granted, this may very well be selective memory) Morgan ever said anything positive about any second baseman.

Morgan also enjoyed his status as the best 2nd baseman in the history of the Astros.  So that is part of it.  He is and always has been an ass.

[WulawHorn]

I would agree with you, if (and granted, this may very well be selective memory) Morgan ever said anything positive about any second baseman.

Morgan also enjoyed his status as the best 2nd baseman in the history of the Astros.  So that is part of it.  He is and always has been an ass.

I could be wrong but I could swear I've heard him rave about Roberto Alomar in the past... Maybe it's just white people like Kent and Biggio he hates.

Actually- I've heard him say (and I know for a fact and remember distinctly hearing him say this, and have seen it in print) that Roger Hornsby was better than him. Then again, hornsby's been dead basically as long as JimR has been alive, so that might be false modesty/ an attempt to not make him look like a blowhard

[Astroholic]

Actually- I've heard him say (and I know for a fact and remember distinctly hearing him say this, and have seen it in print) that Roger Hornsby was better than him. Then again, hornsby's been dead basically as long as JimR has been alive, so that might be false modesty/ an attempt to not make him look like a blowhard

And if he was talking about announcing a game, he could say 99.5% of his colleagues are better than him.  I just don't see Joe thinking that way.  Betya he thinks his is one of the best announcers also.