Author Topic: Berkman  (Read 9046 times)

JimR

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Berkman
« on: August 12, 2007, 03:02:58 pm »
Vargas throwing FBs down the middle right past him. what a dismal year.
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JimR

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2007, 03:42:25 pm »
Vargas throwing FBs down the middle right past him. what a dismal year.

just needed to change pitchers!

if he comes back strong next year and Lee and Pence continue to hit, that is a good core.

btw--i have liked what i have seen in Wigginton.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2007, 03:59:39 pm »
I haven't had time to watch much at all this year -- mostly just listening in the background while I work on something. In your opinion, Jim, does Wigginton have the inside track on being the starting 3B, going into 2008? (As of right now, that is.)
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2007, 04:05:28 pm »
I haven't had time to watch much at all this year -- mostly just listening in the background while I work on something. In your opinion, Jim, does Wigginton have the inside track on being the starting 3B, going into 2008? (As of right now, that is.)

of course. who would challenge him? that's what they got him to do.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2007, 04:26:52 pm »
of course. who would challenge him? that's what they got him to do.

Not sure, as I haven't seen him field yet, so I didn't know if he's a hitter who's playing 3B, or if he's an actual 3B. Thanks.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2007, 04:42:30 pm »
Not sure, as I haven't seen him field yet, so I didn't know if he's a hitter who's playing 3B, or if he's an actual 3B. Thanks.

Some around here said he isn't any better than Lamb at third.  I've read negatives about his play at third elsewhere.  He's not Rolen, but he's been more than adequate and better than Lamb.  And, he can hit in the 5 spot.  He's your Houston Astros 3B in 08 and 09.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2007, 05:03:38 pm »
Some around here said he isn't any better than Lamb at third.  I've read negatives about his play at third elsewhere.  He's not Rolen, but he's been more than adequate and better than Lamb.  And, he can hit in the 5 spot.  He's your Houston Astros 3B in 08 and 09.

It's what Purpura said when he traded for him.  I haven't seen enough of Wigginton close up.  He let one potential dp ball get too far into his stomach, and he backed up on a grounder.  Adequate is the word.  He swings the bat though. 

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2007, 05:59:42 pm »
Not sure, as I haven't seen him field yet, so I didn't know if he's a hitter who's playing 3B, or if he's an actual 3B. Thanks.

he is a MLB third baseman who is better than Lamb and, to me, more than adequate. he is a solid player who can hit the ball.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2007, 06:13:45 pm »
It's only been a half dozen games or so, that I've seen since the trade, but from what I've seen of Wigginton, he's not as bad as has been reported.  Maybe Pravata can add some technical details to this but he looks comfortable going to his left, towards the hole, which is far more than can be said for Lamb.   If he maintains his performance, he's easily the best 3B on this team going into next season.  What that means for Lamb, I wouldn't have a clue.

I also like what he brings in the 5 spot.  He may K but he's going to do it swinging, and swinging hard.  There's nothing tentative or indecisive about this guy.   
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2007, 07:09:54 pm »
just needed to change pitchers!

if he comes back strong next year and Lee and Pence continue to hit, that is a good core.

btw--i have liked what i have seen in Wigginton.
I liked seeing him bust ass down the line and beat that throw in the 1st.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2007, 07:59:03 pm »
It's only been a half dozen games or so, that I've seen since the trade, but from what I've seen of Wigginton, he's not as bad as has been reported.  Maybe Pravata can add some technical details to this but he looks comfortable going to his left, towards the hole, which is far more than can be said for Lamb.   If he maintains his performance, he's easily the best 3B on this team going into next season.  What that means for Lamb, I wouldn't have a clue.

I also like what he brings in the 5 spot.  He may K but he's going to do it swinging, and swinging hard.  There's nothing tentative or indecisive about this guy.   
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2007, 08:09:28 pm »
Speaking of Ensberg and walking.   Since he has gotten to SD, he has 25 ABs, and hasn't walked once.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2007, 09:21:14 pm »
It's only been a half dozen games or so, that I've seen since the trade, but from what I've seen of Wigginton, he's not as bad as has been reported.  Maybe Pravata can add some technical details to this but he looks comfortable going to his left, towards the hole, which is far more than can be said for Lamb.   If he maintains his performance, he's easily the best 3B on this team going into next season.  What that means for Lamb, I wouldn't have a clue.

I also like what he brings in the 5 spot.  He may K but he's going to do it swinging, and swinging hard.  There's nothing tentative or indecisive about this guy.   

Still watching.  If I see anything I'll try to describe it.  The hitting, and swinging, part as you note, is the thing I like best so far.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 10:56:04 pm »
I think Wigginton's an upgrade over the prior situation and his approach is certainly refreshing - but if he's your five then you likely still have some offensive issues ...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 11:00:26 pm by Rammer33 »

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2007, 11:55:53 pm »
I think Wigginton's an upgrade over the prior situation and his approach is certainly refreshing - but if he's your five then you likely still have some offensive issues ...
If Pence's performance becomes the norm for him then Wigginton makes a good 5.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2007, 07:58:56 am »
I think Wigginton's an upgrade over the prior situation and his approach is certainly refreshing - but if he's your five then you likely still have some offensive issues ...

what is a "five?" do you think this is a basketball team?

bullshit. there is nothing that requires any certain offensive level from a specific defensive position.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2007, 08:16:53 am »
what is a "five?" do you think this is a basketball team?

bullshit. there is nothing that requires any certain offensive level from a specific defensive position.

Not to speak for or endorse, but I think he means 5-hole or 5-spot or whatever you want to call the guy that hits after Carlos Lee. 
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2007, 08:58:29 am »
what is a "five?" do you think this is a basketball team?

bullshit. there is nothing that requires any certain offensive level from a specific defensive position.

I took that to mean position in the Batting Order as well- which would make it fair game.  I think maybe luke is your 5 hole hitter and Wiggington is your 6 hole hitter if all goes right. That way you can go right left right left right 2-6 with Pence, lance, carlos, luke and Wiggington. Throw in Munson catching at 7 and I think you have a decently balanced, at least league average lineup for the national league.


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Re: Berkman
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2007, 09:08:27 am »
I took that to mean position in the Batting Order as well- which would make it fair game.  I think maybe luke is your 5 hole hitter and Wiggington is your 6 hole hitter if all goes right. That way you can go right left right left right 2-6 with Pence, lance, carlos, luke and Wiggington. Throw in Munson catching at 7 and I think you have a decently balanced, at least league average lineup for the national league.


what do you expect from the 5 hole hitter. hint: being left-right balanced is not it.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2007, 09:14:42 am »
what do you expect from the 5 hole hitter. hint: being left-right balanced is not it.

Man, I wish it was.  I would be the perfect odd-hole batter in St Louis or even-hole batter in Houston.

Odd-hole.  That's kinda funny.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2007, 09:21:04 am »
what do you expect from the 5 hole hitter. hint: being left-right balanced is not it.
My only expectation is being enough of a threat at the plate to not turn your #4 hitter into an IBB everytime 1B is open and Runners are in scoring position.

Some pop and a decent average(.270) or little pop but a pretty good average (290+).
Not everyone can stack a line-up like the Braves have at this point, where the #5 is someone like Frenchie or Andruw.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2007, 09:27:10 am »
My only expectation is being enough of a threat at the plate to not turn your #4 hitter into an IBB everytime 1B is open and Runners are in scoring position.

Some pop and a decent average(.270) or little pop but a pretty good average (290+).
Not everyone can stack a line-up like the Braves have at this point, where the #5 is someone like Frenchie or Andruw.

the #1 RBI slot. HRs are nice but not required.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2007, 09:37:06 am »
the #1 RBI slot. HRs are nice but not required.
The #5 spot is the #1 RBI slot?
I always thought that was the #4 spot.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2007, 09:40:15 am »
The #5 spot is the #1 RBI slot?
I always thought that was the #4 spot.

nope.

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=236.0
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 09:43:16 am by JimR »
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2007, 09:47:45 am »
Ok, so more like a percentage thing, high % of #RBIs/#RBI opportunities.

Not strickly #of RBIs, right?  Cause #3 and #4 would typically get more, right?

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2007, 10:19:54 am »


Odd-hole. 
i thought that was andy petitte
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2007, 10:23:03 am »
nope.

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=236.0
Hey, that was a great "blast from the past"-type read. Some Nostramdamus-esque remarks about Beltran there. And it is amazing to me how good of a hitter Moises Alou still is in 2007. He's had a great career.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2007, 11:11:27 am »
Ok, so more like a percentage thing, high % of #RBIs/#RBI opportunities.

Not strickly #of RBIs, right?  Cause #3 and #4 would typically get more, right?

yes

not necessarily.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2007, 12:05:17 pm »
yes

not necessarily.
Somebody like Berkman back in theBaggy, Hildago days, right?  Well, when Hildago was mashing, anyways...
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2007, 12:43:13 pm »
Somebody like Berkman back in theBaggy, Hildago days, right?  Well, when Hildago was mashing, anyways...

Alou is the prototype.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2007, 01:10:24 pm »
Alou is the prototype.

I think the key is having the ability to pick up where your cleanup man does not produce.  By that, I mean you want the cleanup man to go ahead and use his power to drive in runs.  But that can also produce high strikeout rates.  Also you want the cleanup man to have that mentality throughout his AB.  Jeff Bagwell never changed his approach to hitting when he had two strikes on him.  Of course, Bagwell was not a cleanup man, but his approach with two strikes sure reminded me of a cleanup hitter's approach.

That is why your #5 guy is important as an RBI guy.  He can have both power and high average as part of his staple.  But with two strikes and ducks on the pond, he has to drive in those runs.  He can't leave it to the #6 or #7 or even #8 guys to be run producers.  Swing the bat is key, not take a walk.  However that guy has to have the type of approach that can go with a pitch wherever it's thrown.  He'll settle for singles and doubles if it drives in runs.

The oddity in the Houston lineup is that Carlos Lee is perhaps the closest thing to a true #5 hitter than anyone else.  But Houston lacks a cleanup man so badly, it would be hard to move Lee off that position.  His approach with two strikes is thing of beauty, but face it, when you have a slow footed bunch of guys on the bases, it takes more than just a single to right to score runs with this team.  So Lee's ability to get that single when he has two strikes on him is somewhat wasted as a run producing AB.  It becomes more of the "keep the line moving" AB and leaves it to the #5 and #6 to be run producers.

So what to do for next season (and perhaps for the rest of this season) with the lineup?  I dunno, that's up to Garner and Purpura to figure out.  If they're going to keep Berkman and Lee in the three and four spots, then you need good options for the leadoff and two hole.  I love Loretta, but he's slow footed so you would need a great leadoff guy to compliment Loretta's ability.  If you don't, then you need the one and two to be a little faster around the basepaths than what Houston has shown this year.  Often times I've seen Lee double to left with Loretta on first and have Loretta sitting at third base and Lee at second with two outs instead of a speedster scoring from first on that double by Lee.  The reason you have two outs of course is leadoff and the three hole have been inconsistent this year.  I think the three hole will fix itself by next year (maybe even by end of year), but leadoff is what Houston needs to pay attention to this offseason.

All that brings us back to the #5 spot.  Is Wiggington the answer?  Yes if you compare his approach to that of Morgan Ensberg.  See, when Pence was hitting #5 I suspected that Houston was going to be in trouble because of his propensity for striking out a lot.  But Pence hit for high average so it made for good run production from the lad and made Lee's two strike approach very viable.  Pence picked up the ducks that were on the bases that Lee would push over into scoring position (because on their own, those guys were unable to score on Lee's singles or doubles).  Can Wiggington do the same?  Well several things to consider: Wiggington does hit for average and has pretty good power.  That is a very good combination, right up there with Pence's makeup.  Perhaps not as high an average as Pence (so far), but good enough.  And Wiggington does look like he can generate some pop perhaps a little more consistently than Pence.  I like the prospects of this, a lot.  But Wiggington is a dead pull hitter, which is not a bad thing at Minute Maid but could be limiting in other parks.  Pitchers are coming inside a little more at Minute Maid and once Wiggington gets a feel for what the NL pitchers are trying to do to him, he'll learn to look for the inside pitch in certain situations and that homerun on Sunday may just be foretelling of things to come.  What would make Wiggington a deadly #5 is if he learns to go to right field more with solid line drives.  Pence did that well, Lee does that really well.  Alou was a master of hitting the ball from gap to gap, with the ability to turn on inside pitches still intact and driving the ball well into the CBs and beyond.  Alou was perfect for both the Dome and MMPUS because of that.  If Wiggington learns to handle outside pitches, he'll do the same.  Will he or can he?  I dunno.  I've watch a sparse few times when he's hitting and it does seem like he does not handle the outside corner as well as he could or should.  But again, it's a sparse few times I've watched so it will be fun to watch this team for the rest of the season.

Leadoff, #2, #5 and #6 are keys for Houston.  Don't let the pablum talk from the nutless worms in Houston divert you from these keys when they talk of Everett and Ausmus.  Any talk of Bruntlett or Towles being key is just plain silly talk and should be appropriately dismissed.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2007, 01:27:12 pm »
It was a lot of fun watching Alou while he was an Astro.  Moises can purely mash.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2007, 01:29:46 pm »
I think the key is having the ability to pick up where your cleanup man does not produce.  By that, I mean you want the cleanup man to go ahead and use his power to drive in runs.  But that can also produce high strikeout rates.  Also you want the cleanup man to have that mentality throughout his AB.  Jeff Bagwell never changed his approach to hitting when he had two strikes on him.  Of course, Bagwell was not a cleanup man, but his approach with two strikes sure reminded me of a cleanup hitter's approach.

That is why your #5 guy is important as an RBI guy.  He can have both power and high average as part of his staple.  But with two strikes and ducks on the pond, he has to drive in those runs.  He can't leave it to the #6 or #7 or even #8 guys to be run producers.  Swing the bat is key, not take a walk.  However that guy has to have the type of approach that can go with a pitch wherever it's thrown.  He'll settle for singles and doubles if it drives in runs.

The oddity in the Houston lineup is that Carlos Lee is perhaps the closest thing to a true #5 hitter than anyone else.  But Houston lacks a cleanup man so badly, it would be hard to move Lee off that position.  His approach with two strikes is thing of beauty, but face it, when you have a slow footed bunch of guys on the bases, it takes more than just a single to right to score runs with this team.  So Lee's ability to get that single when he has two strikes on him is somewhat wasted as a run producing AB.  It becomes more of the "keep the line moving" AB and leaves it to the #5 and #6 to be run producers.

So what to do for next season (and perhaps for the rest of this season) with the lineup?  I dunno, that's up to Garner and Purpura to figure out.  If they're going to keep Berkman and Lee in the three and four spots, then you need good options for the leadoff and two hole.  I love Loretta, but he's slow footed so you would need a great leadoff guy to compliment Loretta's ability.  If you don't, then you need the one and two to be a little faster around the basepaths than what Houston has shown this year.  Often times I've seen Lee double to left with Loretta on first and have Loretta sitting at third base and Lee at second with two outs instead of a speedster scoring from first on that double by Lee.  The reason you have two outs of course is leadoff and the three hole have been inconsistent this year.  I think the three hole will fix itself by next year (maybe even by end of year), but leadoff is what Houston needs to pay attention to this offseason.

All that brings us back to the #5 spot.  Is Wiggington the answer?  Yes if you compare his approach to that of Morgan Ensberg.  See, when Pence was hitting #5 I suspected that Houston was going to be in trouble because of his propensity for striking out a lot.  But Pence hit for high average so it made for good run production from the lad and made Lee's two strike approach very viable.  Pence picked up the ducks that were on the bases that Lee would push over into scoring position (because on their own, those guys were unable to score on Lee's singles or doubles).  Can Wiggington do the same?  Well several things to consider: Wiggington does hit for average and has pretty good power.  That is a very good combination, right up there with Pence's makeup.  Perhaps not as high an average as Pence (so far), but good enough.  And Wiggington does look like he can generate some pop perhaps a little more consistently than Pence.  I like the prospects of this, a lot.  But Wiggington is a dead pull hitter, which is not a bad thing at Minute Maid but could be limiting in other parks.  Pitchers are coming inside a little more at Minute Maid and once Wiggington gets a feel for what the NL pitchers are trying to do to him, he'll learn to look for the inside pitch in certain situations and that homerun on Sunday may just be foretelling of things to come.  What would make Wiggington a deadly #5 is if he learns to go to right field more with solid line drives.  Pence did that well, Lee does that really well.  Alou was a master of hitting the ball from gap to gap, with the ability to turn on inside pitches still intact and driving the ball well into the CBs and beyond.  Alou was perfect for both the Dome and MMPUS because of that.  If Wiggington learns to handle outside pitches, he'll do the same.  Will he or can he?  I dunno.  I've watch a sparse few times when he's hitting and it does seem like he does not handle the outside corner as well as he could or should.  But again, it's a sparse few times I've watched so it will be fun to watch this team for the rest of the season.

Leadoff, #2, #5 and #6 are keys for Houston.  Don't let the pablum talk from the nutless worms in Houston divert you from these keys when they talk of Everett and Ausmus.  Any talk of Bruntlett or Towles being key is just plain silly talk and should be appropriately dismissed.

Restful vacation there, Noé?

Noe

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2007, 01:30:28 pm »
Restful vacation there, Noé?

Awesome one, Andy.  Sorry about the spillage of words, I'll clean it up later.

Andyzipp

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2007, 01:31:31 pm »
Awesome one, Andy.  Sorry about the spillage of words, I'll clean it up later.

Good to hear.  No clean-up required.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2007, 01:31:51 pm »
what do you expect from the 5 hole hitter. hint: being left-right balanced is not it.

Someone to drive in runs and clear the bases. Something luke scott has done well with 53 ribbies in about 270 AB's.  Pretty good ratio.  Has some pop. I like him at the 5. not that this matters.

The lefty thing was just a nice bonus to me. Sorry if I implied that was the only reason I wanted to see Luke at #5.  Late in the game they almost always turn berkman around.  Maybe with scott #5 the manager will try to get by lee with his lefty so he has the percentage advantage on Scott as well. Probably not though- which means scott gets a righty as most teams only have one lefty in the bullpen.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 01:36:04 pm by WulawHorn »

Noe

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2007, 01:34:02 pm »
It was a lot of fun watching Alou while he was an Astro.  Moises can purely mash.

I remember the chants of "MVP! MVP! MVP!" in the dome in '98.  As I remember correctly, Carl Everett was the cleanup hitter on that team.  Hitting between Bagwell and Alou gave C4 his chance to shine and made C4's 99 campaign one that allowed the whispers of "MVP!" to happen.

Noe

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2007, 01:37:55 pm »
Someone to drive in runs and clear the bases. Something luke scott has done well with 53 ribbies in about 270 AB's.  Pretty good ratio.  Has some pop. I like him at the 5. not that this matters.

Not that it matters a hill of beans what I think, but...

Luke Scott is too much a guess hitter and is prone to hot/cold streaks for my taste as a #5 hitter.  Has Scott ever proven in the majors that he can hit consistently to you?  Last year he was red-hot, the year before he was ice-cold, this year he's been that side of lukewarm, tending towards the ice more than the hot side.  Reminds me of Hidalgo more than anything else.

I like Scott, but I don't see what he is beyond a good #4 outfielder on this team (Lee/CF/Pence), perhaps a semi-regular guy but not much more after that.  And I could be entirely wrong on that one too!

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2007, 01:47:33 pm »
Not that it matters a hill of beans what I think, but...

Luke Scott is too much a guess hitter and is prone to hot/cold streaks for my taste as a #5 hitter.  Has Scott ever proven in the majors that he can hit consistently to you?  Last year he was red-hot, the year before he was ice-cold, this year he's been that side of lukewarm, tending towards the ice more than the hot side.  Reminds me of Hidalgo more than anything else.

I like Scott, but I don't see what he is beyond a good #4 outfielder on this team (Lee/CF/Pence), perhaps a semi-regular guy but not much more after that.  And I could be entirely wrong on that one too!

His rate numbers are decent, but he does tend to get them in bunches, so maybe he can't lock down the spot all year long.  If they get a good CFer that can hit leadoff that is ideal. If it comes down to that or a good starting pitcher b/c of budget constraints I'd prefer the pitcher and go to war with Lee/Pence/Scott in the lineup, and Scott at 5 or 6. I like Wiggington as well, but he just seems like more of a 6 hole hitter to me- b/c I'm not sure he's good enough to be an upper eschelon 5 hitter. He is the anti-Luke though, as he seems to be consistent year round on a month to month basis, while scott is mercurial switching between white hot and ice cold.  I guess there is value in consistency day to day (I think luke would be consistent year to year but inconcistent day to day if that makes sense).  He's ok in the OF. Could you switch him between 5 and 7 based upon his trending?  With Munson as a candidate to hit higher when luke isn't on?  Too complicated or too much changing? I don't know.

Glad to hear you had a good vacation Noe.

Very nice read from 2002 Coach- I enjoyed it. thanks for reposting it.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2007, 01:58:48 pm »
His rate numbers are decent, but he does tend to get them in bunches, so maybe he can't lock down the spot all year long.

That seems to relate well with what I've seen.  He did the same in the minors from my memory.   There is no doubt in my mind that when Luke Scott is swinging well, he's a very tough out.  But if you're looking for consistency, you'll get a little frustrated with Scott's cold streaks.  That is returning the days of Richard Hidalgo and I'm not so sure that is good thing.

Quote
If they get a good CFer that can hit leadoff that is ideal.

Not only ideal in my mind, but a huge need.  Remember, they originally thought that they had that answer in Chris Burke.  And I wouldn't say good CF, I would say they need a very good to great CF on this team.

Quote
If it comes down to that or a good starting pitcher b/c of budget constraints I'd prefer the pitcher and go to war with Lee/Pence/Scott in the lineup, and Scott at 5 or 6.

I'm not convinced yet that they will not be able to make a trade for a good young CF that hits leadoff.  I too think the budget (FA money) should be earmarked for pitching, but you don't give up on the trade market to fill a need either.

Quote
I like Wiggington as well, but he just seems like more of a 6 hole hitter to me- b/c I'm not sure he's good enough to be an upper eschelon 5 hitter. He is the anti-Luke though, as he seems to be consistent year round on a month to month basis, while scott is mercurial switching between white hot and ice cold.  I guess there is value in consistency day to day (I think luke would be consistent year to year but inconcistent day to day if that makes sense).

I don't know enough on Wiggington to say with any amount of certainty either way.  Hence why I am anticipating following this team for the rest of the season.  It will be fun.

Quote
He's ok in the OF. Could you switch him between 5 and 7 based upon his trending?  With Munson as a candidate to hit higher when luke isn't on?  Too complicated or too much changing? I don't know.

Players often times get a certain mindset that switching them around too much screws them up.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2007, 02:00:32 pm »
His rate numbers are decent, but he does tend to get them in bunches, so maybe he can't lock down the spot all year long.  If they get a good CFer that can hit leadoff that is ideal. If it comes down to that or a good starting pitcher b/c of budget constraints I'd prefer the pitcher and go to war with Lee/Pence/Scott in the lineup, and Scott at 5 or 6. I like Wiggington as well, but he just seems like more of a 6 hole hitter to me- b/c I'm not sure he's good enough to be an upper eschelon 5 hitter. He is the anti-Luke though, as he seems to be consistent year round on a month to month basis, while scott is mercurial switching between white hot and ice cold.  I guess there is value in consistency day to day (I think luke would be consistent year to year but inconcistent day to day if that makes sense).  He's ok in the OF. Could you switch him between 5 and 7 based upon his trending?  With Munson as a candidate to hit higher when luke isn't on?  Too complicated or too much changing? I don't know.

Glad to hear you had a good vacation Noe.

Very nice read from 2002 Coach- I enjoyed it. thanks for reposting it.

Whipping out my crystal ball and putting on my NostraJacksonian hat here is your 08 starting 8:

1 Burke 2b
2 Pence RF
3 Berkman 1B
4 Lee LF
5 Wigginton 3B
6 Mike Cameron CF
7 Ausmus C
8 Everett SS

Purp will test his faith in Burke by keeping him on the team and giving him the leadoff role.  With Gardner doing her best Oz Towles will be given the backup role at catcher thereby inducing Purp to convince Ausmus to give it one more year and tutor Towles to the greatest extent possible.  Cameron will be the only option when the more complete centerfielders price themselves way out of Drayton's range especially considering the money he's going to spend on another starting pitcher.  Bonus: Scott and Lane will be the 4 and 5 outfielders and Purp will sign Grudzalphabet to pair with Bruntlett on the bench as utility infielders.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2007, 02:07:00 pm »
what is a "five?" do you think this is a basketball team?

bullshit. there is nothing that requires any certain offensive level from a specific defensive position.
… 5th hitter … I can see the confusion with scorecard numbering however no reason to get pissy …

I didn’t mention any offensive expectations from specific defensive positions (defensively Wigginton has been fine and to be honest a bit better than I expected) … However there are offensive requirements from certain positions in the lineup … and definitely from the fifth hitter which often times is the teams second or 3rd best overall hitter (depending on each teams surplus or shortage of RBI hitters) (the best overall hitter generally hitting 3rd) …

Wigginton is not a solid number 5 and if he is your 5 you are weak in that spot (barring a significant improvement on his part) and, in all likelihood, it means you are weak in the 6th spot as well … obviously as you move down the lineup expectations are lowered but the 5th spot especially, and to a slightly lesser degree 6 need to be at least average (if the expectation is an above average offense)  - 7 and 8 are gravy either way … Wigginton’s average is somewhat border line for a 5 (not bad just border line);  he strikes out a bit much and isn’t a very good RBI man … mix in his mediocre power … and he is in no shape to be a good offensive team’s 5th hitter (generally speaking) – I think he could work as the 6 and on a very good offensive team would likely hit 7 (of course depending on the teams individual makeup - but generally speaking) … so if Wigginton is your 5 it likely reflects a weakness not only at 5 but at 6 …

Now I think Pence ‘could’ fill the role at 5 (if and only if his average stays up above a reasonable level and his K’s are kept in check – that has happened thus far pre injury but he is riding that line of striking out to much for the 5th spot – however his average has been high enough where it wouldn’t be an issue) … however personally I like Pence at 2 and to large extent moving him is robbing peter to pay paul - in that I think you now have some problems at the top of the order …

By the way this doesn’t mean I don’t like Ty I am simply skeptical about our offense if he is at 5 … I think the direction the astros go in right/center (aka the other OF not named Pence or Lee) will answer a lot of questions about what kind of offensive team we are going to have … Hopefully its someone that can fill the role of a 4th or 5th hitter – I say 4 because I think Lee could work at 5 …
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 02:26:33 pm by Rammer33 »

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2007, 02:36:23 pm »
what do you guys think of joey gathright?  if it were between mike cameron and joey gathright who would you prefer?

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2007, 03:59:33 pm »
Whipping out my crystal ball and putting on my NostraJacksonian hat here is your 08 starting 8:

1 Burke 2b
2 Pence RF
3 Berkman 1B
4 Lee LF
5 Wigginton 3B
6 Mike Cameron CF
7 Ausmus C
8 Everett SS

Purp will test his faith in Burke by keeping him on the team and giving him the leadoff role.  With Gardner doing her best Oz Towles will be given the backup role at catcher thereby inducing Purp to convince Ausmus to give it one more year and tutor Towles to the greatest extent possible.  Cameron will be the only option when the more complete centerfielders price themselves way out of Drayton's range especially considering the money he's going to spend on another starting pitcher.  Bonus: Scott and Lane will be the 4 and 5 outfielders and Purp will sign Grudzalphabet to pair with Bruntlett on the bench as utility infielders.

I agree with you.  Unfortunately, the biggest need in the offseason will be impossible to address with free agents as the pitching FAs are less than desirable or would duplicate what Houston already has.  Which leads me to conclude if there's to be a trade during the offseason, it will be for pitching, which will likely utilize any tradeable assets Houston has, preventing a trade for a leadoff-CF type and eating up any salary space that would be used to sign someone like Hunter or Rowand.  All but guaranteeing Houston signs someone like Cameron.  Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Cameron and think if he maintains his health and defense, his bat in the 6 hole would be more than adequate for that role. 

Lineup:
Burke/Bruntlett (with Burke getting the first 100+ at bats to prove he deserves to start or not)
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Wigginton
Cameron
Everett
Catcher???

I think there are benefits to the re-building philosophy.  Primarily, Houston could make the trade for the ideal leadoff/CF they want and need and bypass the higher need of pitching knowing they'll get another shot the following offseason in FA or that one of their existing pitchers will take the next step.

I could be in the minority but I would not be dissappointed if Houston took another shot at Bourne and signed Loretta to start at 2B.  Run with the following lineup:

Bourne
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Wigginton (note: it isn't spelled with 3 g's)
Loretta
Everett
Catcher???

Looks like it could be an interesting offseason.  I hope they can find the FAs or trades that will improve the team.  That's the rub, really.  I'm sure everyone will scream for Purpura's head but I think he's going to make the best choices of the options that will be available. 
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2007, 04:09:44 pm »

I'm not convinced yet that they will not be able to make a trade for a good young CF that hits leadoff.  I too think the budget (FA money) should be earmarked for pitching, but you don't give up on the trade market to fill a need either.


Maybe we could get Willy T from the Rockies for Burke and a washed-up pitcher?
Up in the Air

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2007, 04:10:45 pm »
I think a run at Bourne during the offseason would be likely by the Astros, but word is that Rowand thinks very highly of himself as an upcoming free agent.  In the Gary Mathews Jr. range of "highly".  The Phils want no part of that and will keep Bourne on the team quite possibly for that very reason.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2007, 04:11:42 pm »
Maybe we could get Willy T from the Rockies for Burke and a washed-up pitcher?

This cycle of "maybe we can trade for Willy T from the Rockies...." post is getting a bit old.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2007, 04:13:45 pm »
what do you guys think of joey gathright?  if it were between mike cameron and joey gathright who would you prefer?

I think he makes Willy T look selective at the plate, and like a power hitter.  Pass.

Edit: referring to Gathright.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 04:17:24 pm by MusicMan »
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2007, 04:14:29 pm »
This cycle of "maybe we can trade for Willy T from the Rockies...." post is getting a bit old.

It was old in April.
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Re: Berkman
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2007, 04:16:43 pm »
It was old in April.

Old?  check!
Never gonna happen?  check!
Unfair as a critique of the original trade?  CHECK!

But ... it still isn't a bad idea (imo).  It would not be the first time a player was traded back to the original team.
Up in the Air

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2007, 04:18:21 pm »


 I'm sure everyone will scream for Purpura's head but I think he's going to make the best choices of the options that will be available. 

Problem with asking for Purp's head is the new GM will probably be Tal's son.  No thanks.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2007, 04:29:40 pm »
Problem with asking for Purp's head is the new GM will probably be Tal's son.  No thanks.

why do you think this?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2007, 04:30:27 pm »
why do you think this?
That Randy will become the next GM or no thanks?

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2007, 04:42:24 pm »
That Randy will become the next GM or no thanks?

Smith next GM

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2007, 04:49:31 pm »
Smith next GM

Polly Prissy Pants started the rumor.  I think his rumor actually came for a USA today article, which makes it better, RIGHT? 

I think he would be a candidate if Tim was let go.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2007, 05:05:11 pm »
Polly Prissy Pants started the rumor.  I think his rumor actually came for a USA today article, which makes it better, RIGHT? 

I think he would be a candidate if Tim was let go.

It was Ortiz, check the bottom of the "Ortiz is a fuckin douche nozzle" (or something like that) thread.  He quotes "some say".  Some say is probably Justice.  I'm in an email pissing match with Ringolsby who is perpetuating this load of crap.  I'm trying to get him to say his source is Pinwheel.  When he does, I'll post that.  And we'll laugh.

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Re: Berkman
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2007, 05:17:48 pm »
It was Ortiz, check the bottom of the "Ortiz is a fuckin douche nozzle" (or something like that) thread.  He quotes "some say".  Some say is probably Justice.  I'm in an email pissing match with Ringolsby who is perpetuating this load of crap.  I'm trying to get him to say his source is Pinwheel.  When he does, I'll post that.  And we'll laugh.

Cool.