Author Topic: healthy teenage pitchers and their parents are seeking reconstructive elbow surg  (Read 23930 times)

Phil_in_CS

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
2nd item on link
Quote
Anecdotal evidence suggests healthy teenage pitchers and their parents are seeking reconstructive elbow surgery to improve their throwing speed. (The "Tommy John" surgery was originally developed to repair the arms of pro pitchers.)

edit:
duh, too early in the morning
forgot to add the link http://www.slate.com/id/2170452/
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 08:01:25 am by Phil_in_CS »

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
2nd item on link
edit:
duh, too early in the morning
forgot to add the link http://www.slate.com/id/2170452/

totally sick, but a logical extension of the craziness that kids' baseball has become.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
If some parents are give their daughters boob jobs for graduation, why not TJ surgery for their sons.  Both are equally absurd.
Always ready to go to a game.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
...and people bitch about Biggio's elbow pad.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
...and people bitch about Biggio's elbow pad.

That he doesn't wear any more.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
Here's the Yankees latest hot prospect.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Mr. Happy

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 23232
  • It's a beautiful day; let's play two
    • View Profile
2nd item on link
edit:
duh, too early in the morning
forgot to add the link http://www.slate.com/id/2170452/

Call Child Protective Services on these parents. This is insane.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Fredia

  • Pope
  • Posts: 6896
  • Looking forward
    • View Profile
Call Child Protective Services on these parents. This is insane.
i agree. any surgery is life threating but to do it for the chance to pitch better just makes me think if parents  are doing this to help their children. what else will they do
forever is composed entirely of nows

Noe

  • Guest
Call Child Protective Services on these parents. This is insane.

Logical progression, don't you agree?  I mean, don't some parents ask your help for their kids in terms of pitching mechanics, et. al.?  Sometimes, you just can't stop some parents from being... well... stupid.  Especially when it comes to baseball.  The dream of having your kid becomes the next great Mickey Mantle is just too hard to shake for some dads and moms.  Behind my wife's office complex is a batting cage operation.  During the day, the place is dead, not much is going on.  At night, if my wife works late or if I'm up there to help with a project, we'll get stuck sometimes in the parking lot because some parent double parked in order to get their kid into his practice session with the trainer/coach/baseball consultant.  I mean droves of kids standing in line to get their time in the cages, also get video taped and have those oh so special times with the expert just so they can be one step ahead of the next kid going out for varsity or something like that.

The cages themselves are near the huge sliding doors they have, so on occasion they'll open those doors to allow parents to watch the goings on from the parking lot.  It looks odd, like a drive-in movie, and on occasion you'll hear the mom or dad yell something from a car "way to go Johnny!  Woo-hoo!".  This is from car to car as their particular kid gets his cuts in.  This is a whole sub-culture for baseball, all because the stats say that less than 8% of all minor leaguers will ever make it to the majors.  To just make it to the minor leagues is an accomplishment in it of itself.  So I guess the parents know they're in a race of some sort against other parents that will do anything to have their little Johnny be part of the elite.  And they will hand over the money for that privilege.

So what do I see when the sliding door is all the way up and the kids are taking their cuts?  I see mom and dad wasting their money, that's what.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
2nd item on link
edit:
duh, too early in the morning
forgot to add the link http://www.slate.com/id/2170452/

I don't think the author realizes it usually takes 2 years to recover from TJ.  Even if there were an advantage, it's gonna be shot by the recovery period.

Mor orthopoedics pushing the surgery seems like a more likely answer.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Logical progression, don't you agree?  I mean, don't some parents ask your help for their kids in terms of pitching mechanics, et. al.?  Sometimes, you just can't stop some parents from being... well... stupid.  Especially when it comes to baseball.  The dream of having your kid becomes the next great Mickey Mantle is just too hard to shake for some dads and moms.  Behind my wife's office complex is a batting cage operation.  During the day, the place is dead, not much is going on.  At night, if my wife works late or if I'm up there to help with a project, we'll get stuck sometimes in the parking lot because some parent double parked in order to get their kid into his practice session with the trainer/coach/baseball consultant.  I mean droves of kids standing in line to get their time in the cages, also get video taped and have those oh so special times with the expert just so they can be one step ahead of the next kid going out for varsity or something like that.

The cages themselves are near the huge sliding doors they have, so on occasion they'll open those doors to allow parents to watch the goings on from the parking lot.  It looks odd, like a drive-in movie, and on occasion you'll hear the mom or dad yell something from a car "way to go Johnny!  Woo-hoo!".  This is from car to car as their particular kid gets his cuts in.  This is a whole sub-culture for baseball, all because the stats say that less than 8% of all minor leaguers will ever make it to the majors.  To just make it to the minor leagues is an accomplishment in it of itself.  So I guess the parents know they're in a race of some sort against other parents that will do anything to have their little Johnny be part of the elite.  And they will hand over the money for that privilege.

So what do I see when the sliding door is all the way up and the kids are taking their cuts?  I see mom and dad wasting their money, that's what.

Noe, would you feel different if it was golf or tennis, and the kids were getting lessons from the pro?  Or if it were piano lessons?  Or a French tutor?  I've heard of a high school kid whose parents drive him 8 hours roundtrip every Saturday to study with a particular violin teacher, and it is a lot tougher to get a place in a symphony than it is to play minor league or college ball.  Is that different?
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
I don't think the author realizes it usually takes 2 years to recover from TJ.  Even if there were an advantage, it's gonna be shot by the recovery period.

Mor orthopoedics pushing the surgery seems like a more likely answer.

Recovery time is down significantly as evidenced by Backe's rehab return this year when folks were projecting next season.
Always ready to go to a game.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Not Noé, but I agree with the cash being wasted.  If the goal of spending this money, hiring consultants, hitting coaches, etc is to make the child good, you might as well hand me the cash, because I can impart physical talent on a child just as well as the next guy. 

If the goal of the activities is make the child better, okay, but to what end?  Such a ridiculously small amount of kids will every progess past high school ball, that investing in the cottage industry for 99% of those kids is doing nothing more than keeping that industry alive. The talent is still going to rise to the top in most cases.

What happened to kids just enjoying playing a game?

Astroholic

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3807
    • View Profile
Noe, would you feel different if it was golf or tennis, and the kids were getting lessons from the pro?  Or if it were piano lessons?  Or a French tutor?  I've heard of a high school kid whose parents drive him 8 hours roundtrip every Saturday to study with a particular violin teacher, and it is a lot tougher to get a place in a symphony than it is to play minor league or college ball.  Is that different?

No, those parents are just as crazy.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
What happened to kids just enjoying playing a game?

Rising tuition costs.
Goin' for a bus ride.

Phil_in_CS

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
Rising tuition costs.

There's that for sure. But, should you really make the decision on where to go to school based on where you get your scholarship? My boss's daughter got a swimming scholarship, at a Div II school in Ark. Big money scholarship, since its a private school, but nothing much in the way of what she really wanted to do with her life.

My niece is in the same boat in golf. She's really good, as far as HS sophomore's go. Will she get a scholarship to the school that makes the best sense in her life? That's another question entirely.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
It just struck me that the same parents who think their kids are talented enough to make the big leagues are the same people who don't understand why Adam Everett did.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
There's that for sure. But, should you really make the decision on where to go to school based on where you get your scholarship? My boss's daughter got a swimming scholarship, at a Div II school in Ark. Big money scholarship, since its a private school, but nothing much in the way of what she really wanted to do with her life.

My niece is in the same boat in golf. She's really good, as far as HS sophomore's go. Will she get a scholarship to the school that makes the best sense in her life? That's another question entirely.


What schools are that specialized at the undergraduate level?  What are her plans?  For 99% of the careers out there, where you did your undergraduate is irrelevant.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
There's that for sure. But, should you really make the decision on where to go to school based on where you get your scholarship?

I can tell you in no uncertain term that, sports or not, where kids get a scholarship most definitely affects their choice.
Goin' for a bus ride.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
There's that for sure. But, should you really make the decision on where to go to school based on where you get your scholarship? My boss's daughter got a swimming scholarship, at a Div II school in Ark. Big money scholarship, since its a private school, but nothing much in the way of what she really wanted to do with her life.

My niece is in the same boat in golf. She's really good, as far as HS sophomore's go. Will she get a scholarship to the school that makes the best sense in her life? That's another question entirely.

Because of Title IX, any girls chances of getting an athletic scholarship are very good.  The local college here has been giving golf scholarships to girls who have never broken 85, because they have to have that many female scholarships to balance out the all important football team.
Always ready to go to a game.

Phil_in_CS

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1511
    • View Profile
What schools are that specialized at the undergraduate level?  What are her plans?  For 99% of the careers out there, where you did your undergraduate is irrelevant.

so a BBA from UT is worth nothing more than a BBA from Nichols State?

kevwun

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 940
    • View Profile
I think football should be exempted from the Title IX scholarship count.  It throws the numbers way out of whack since there are no comparable women's sports in size or scope.  It's also the breadwinner of almost every school's Athletic Dept.
Crazy Joe McCluskey was fucking nuts.  It's why they called him Crazy Joe.

Noe

  • Guest
Noe, would you feel different if it was golf or tennis, and the kids were getting lessons from the pro?  Or if it were piano lessons?  Or a French tutor?  I've heard of a high school kid whose parents drive him 8 hours roundtrip every Saturday to study with a particular violin teacher, and it is a lot tougher to get a place in a symphony than it is to play minor league or college ball.  Is that different?

I think Andy answered already, but I did want to share a particular interesting circumstance in my own life that follows not only what you're saying but also the Great Guitarist thread found on this page as well.  I was 12 years old when my Dad got this great idea that I should study to be a classical guitarist.  He loved that sort of music and had dreams of one of his four boys being classically trained guitarist.  My sister's piano teacher suggested me because I had the longer fingers (I'm not kidding).  So at 12 years of age, this little league pitcher was tabbed to be the boy to live out my dad's dream.  Could I break his heart and tell him "but Dad, I *don't want to be a classical guitarist*!".  No, I could not.  So he enlisted the great Edgar Cortez to be my tutor.  I don't know how eggszactly he earned the title of "great", but that is what his calling card said, so my Dad liked it and we went with it.  Meanwhile, my sister, two years older than me, wanted so badly to learn classic quitar.  My Dad said no to her, but she kept insisting and insisting and would come and sit in on my private lessons quietly over in the corner.  Edgar the Great made a deal with my Dad, if this young lady insist on sitting in, she may as well learn something.  So he cut his rates to be slightly more than his one person/one hour going rate to include my sister.  But we both needed quitars of our own, so the great one said "no problem" and the next lesson (the first three lesson were about posture and the proper way to hold a guitar... the non-Marachi way, kind of what Esteban does in his infomercials when he sits and plays) he brought two beautiful guitars.  These were not those cheapo, made in Japan models... these were spanish quitars that Cortez sold as a consultant for the guitar maker.

Cost = $250.00 per quitar.  This would probably translate into near a 800 dollars in today's money.  My Dad paid it.  I felt sick inside, I was getting a guitar that I didn't want to learn classical guitar that I wasn't interested in only because I didn't have the nerve to tell my Dad that I was simply not wanting to do this.  My sister quickly caught on to everything Cortez was teaching us and practice every day.  Me?  I was forced by my Mom and Dad to get inside the house and practice my guitar instead of being outside playing pickle.  After a month of lessons, my sister could play some pieces while all I had to show for my lessons was proper classic guitar playing posture (hey, I applied myself a little!).  After said month, Cortez asked my Dad to meet him for a consultation.  He wanted to talk about me.  Dad met him, thinking he was going to get some strategy for making me better than I was showing.  Instead, Cortez proved why he was called the great... he was honest with my Dad and told him I wasn't cut out to be a classical guitarist.  In fact, what he told him has always stuck with me "Miguel, este nino es pelotero, no es quitarista!  El quiere estar afuera juegando beisbol, not adentro practicando la guitara!" (translated: "Mike, this boy is a ball player, not a guitarist!  He would much rather be outside playing baseball than being inside applying himself as a guitarist!".  It stung a little for my Dad, but he thanked Edgar for the honesty.  He then came home and took me out to get an ice cream.  I was a little apprehensive.  Was this a last meal for me?

Instead my Dad was somewhat apologetic for this whole episode.  He told me what Cortez said and I of course said "I can do it Dad, I'm sorry, I can... I just wasn't serious about it but I'll be serious now, I can do it... don't give up on me!".  Why was I lying to my Dad?  I didn't want him to be hurt or disappointed in me.  He let me off the hook by saying he just would rather give me time to figure if music, especially classical guitar would be something I would love to take up later in life.  For now, just be a kid and play outside with your friends.  That was tough to do for my Dad.  I regret not learning classic guitar sometimes, but every time I pick a nylon stringed spanish guitar and assume the Cortez position, I remember who badly I suck at playing and I remember how it was for the best that I quit playing the charade for all intents and purposes.  My sister on the other hand learned how to play and was taught by Cortez for well over a year until my Dad couldn't afford the lessons any more.  At times, my sister would play some pieces for my Dad while we sat in our living room area and did family things.  My other sister would play some piano pieces for him as well.  They loved learning to play musical instruments and did well by my Dad.

I, on the other hand, was the best pickle player on our block and had they had a pickle tournament back then, I would've been a contendah!  I love you Dad!

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Not Noé, but I agree with the cash being wasted.  If the goal of spending this money, hiring consultants, hitting coaches, etc is to make the child good, you might as well hand me the cash, because I can impart physical talent on a child just as well as the next guy. 

If the goal of the activities is make the child better, okay, but to what end?  Such a ridiculously small amount of kids will every progess past high school ball, that investing in the cottage industry for 99% of those kids is doing nothing more than keeping that industry alive. The talent is still going to rise to the top in most cases.

What happened to kids just enjoying playing a game?

My son's worked with a French tutor for the last year.  It has not made him good, but it probably got him through the first year of high school French when he was otherwise going to fail it.  

He took piano lessons from the time he was 6 or so until he was 11.  I can play the piano, a bit, and probably could have taught him all he learned, but it would have been a miserable experience for all involved.  The reasons for the lessons were (1) everybody in my family always played the piano, at least a bit, (2) it's a great introduction to music, and the skills translate to other instruments, (3) it teaches a certain amount of discipline.  I would never, ever try to teach either of my kids classical guitar, even though I'm a far better guitarist than a pianist.

My son has taken pitching lessons from time to time, last year to learn how to throw a curve.  I wouldn't pretend to know how to teach him.

He had a reading issue early.  We had to hire a specialist to teach him the alphabet, and to teach him how to read.  

Do I expect him to be fluent in French, or become a translator?  Did I expect him to be a great pianist?  Do I think he will ever throw a great curve, or read well?  Why is baseball the one of those that's a waste of money, or the one to which motives, other than the child's well-rounded education, are assumed?
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Noe

  • Guest
Why is baseball the one of those that's a waste of money, or the one to which motives, other than the child's well-rounded education, are assumed?

The cottage industry that is music or language tutoring is way different than the cottage industry that is baseball instruction.  Most of what I've seen at these events at the cages strike me as overkill and the only way I would suspect that a parent will shell out for such overkill is because they and the instructors have expectations of grandeur.  Far beyond what a music teacher or language teacher would put on a child.  So if my son wants to learn music, I would think both of us could keep the level-head about it.  If my son wants to be a major leaguer, then it starts by playing outside more and putting down the nintendo for my perspective.  We'll go from there with baby steps of course, probably never coming near training sessions like the ones I see going on now for high school and pre-teen select teams.

They seem to capture the dreams of parents and kids alike to be major leaguers and provide the tailored instruction that is highly unnecessary at this young age.  IMHO of course.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Rising tuition costs.

It would be more acceptable (to me at least, cause you people better keep me satisfyed) if the honest answer is "I'm trying to give my kid another avenue to an education, and baseball is an means to that end."  I think this isn't true as much as it needs to be.  I think rising rates of the Major League Paycheck is a more accurate answer.

And I think it's one of the things about baseball that appeals to the masses.  The idea that with a few breaks and the right coaching anyone could play major leage baseball is one of the "feelings" several have had about the game over the past 150 years.  The reality is that it's hard as hell to hit a baseball, field a position or pitch, and only the very skilled are going to advance 99.9% of the time.


Andyzipp

  • Guest
Do I expect him to be fluent in French, or become a translator?  Did I expect him to be a great pianist?  Do I think he will ever throw a great curve, or read well?  Why is baseball the one of those that's a waste of money, or the one to which motives, other than the child's well-rounded education, are assumed?

Being able to read isn't an option, it is a necessity to becoming a fully functioning adult, so that's not even comparable to baseball instruction.

The ability to speak, read and comprehend a foreign language (even a stupid language like French) and the effort in learning can be valuable towards becoming a fully functioning adult because it can improve their understanding of their own languages, cultural differences, art & literature, etc...not to mention you can't get a high school diploma in Texas without taking two years of a language. 

Piano lessons are the closest thing to the baseball lessons, and I think the point is that Noé was making is valid.  It's not the fact that you (or anyone) is paying for piano lessons.  It's the reason why you're paying for the lessons.  Your kid is interested and wants to get better?  Super.  YOU want him to be something that YOU want him to be? Not so great.

But you mentioned that the above things were to result in your child's well-rounded education.  That's fine, and Piano and baseball will contribute to that, but the difference is your child isn't going to become more "well-rounded" because he's better at baseball.  All he needs is an interest and basic set of skills to play baseball.

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
I think rising rates of the Major League Paycheck is a more accurate answer.

Really? I always thought of it as a stature thing, just another notch in the belt for the "me generation". I drive a BMW and live in a $800,000 house in Bellaire, my son has private hitting lessons with Jesse Barfield, my son is on a select team, etc. You may be right though, people are that clueless, they have no idea that there is no amount of hitting lessons in the world that will create a MLB player, you either have it or you don't.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Really? I always thought of it as a stature thing, just another notch in the belt for the "me generation". I drive a BMW and live in a $800,000 house in Bellaire, my son has private hitting lessons with Jesse Barfield, my son is on a select team, etc. You may be right though, people are that clueless, they have no idea that there is no amount of hitting lessons in the world that will create a MLB player, you either have it or you don't.

I drive an Altima and live in a $165,000 house in Spring Shadows.  My son thinks Spongebob Squarepants is a real person, my son played YMCA soccer and enjoyed kicking dirt more than kicking the ball, etc. 

I'm sure the status is a part of it as well.  But I know there are people out there (because I've thrown more than a few of them out of my field when I was umpiring) who think that their kids are major leaguers because of all kinds of random shit.  I've heard from more than one of these parents how I was screwing up their kids futures by ringing them up or calling a trapped ball.

pravata

  • Guest
I drive an Altima and live in a $165,000 house in Spring Shadows.  My son thinks Spongebob Squarepants is a real person, my son played YMCA soccer and enjoyed kicking dirt more than kicking the ball, etc. 

I'm sure the status is a part of it as well.  But I know there are people out there (because I've thrown more than a few of them out of my field when I was umpiring) who think that their kids are major leaguers because of all kinds of random shit.  I've heard from more than one of these parents how I was screwing up their kids futures by ringing them up or calling a trapped ball.

I'm curious why anyone needs to be convinced of this.  Moseying back to the original article, there are "parents" who are willing to entertain vivisection in order to add 5 miles to the fastball of their uncoordinated little lumps.  Arguing with a Japanese car driving umpire or paying Jesse Barfield to set up a rope and tennis ball in the backyard is nothing.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Really? I always thought of it as a stature thing, just another notch in the belt for the "me generation". I drive a BMW and live in a $800,000 house in Bellaire, my son has private hitting lessons with Jesse Barfield, my son is on a select team, etc. You may be right though, people are that clueless, they have no idea that there is no amount of hitting lessons in the world that will create a MLB player, you either have it or you don't.

There may well be parents who think that private hitting lessons will get a kid to MLB, but I would guess that most parents don't think that, any more than most parents who sign their kid up for golf lessons think their kid is going to be on the Tour, or who sign their kids up for piano lessons think the kid will end up playing Lizst.   Do you have kids?  Parents who are rich and parents who are not rich end up paying for all sorts of stuff, without thinking that their kid is going to end up making a profession of it.  Why would you assume that there's any particular status granted to an adult by what their kid does?  Or conversely, that it's not ok to be proud of a kid's endeavors?
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Andyzipp

  • Guest
There may well be parents who think that private hitting lessons will get a kid to MLB, but I would guess that most parents don't think that, any more than most parents who sign their kid up for golf lessons think their kid is going to be on the Tour, or who sign their kids up for piano lessons think the kid will end up playing Lizst.   Do you have kids?  Parents who are rich and parents who are not rich end up paying for all sorts of stuff, without thinking that their kid is going to end up making a profession of it.  Why would you assume that there's any particular status granted to an adult by what their kid does?  Or conversely, that it's not ok to be proud of a kid's endeavors?

Whether or not I have kids (I do) is immaterial to this conversation.  I understand that parents pay for kids to do things and have things.  My question about paying for baseball instruction is what is the point?

You brought up reading lessons, french lessons and piano lessons as examples of other things that parents buy for their kids.  No problem with any of those things, because the first is a critical life skill, the second (and third) augment the ability to learn and the ability to think and create. 

Baseball is not a critical life skill, and based on the number of meatheads that I know who play, has nothing to do with critical thinking.  None of that makes it bad, but the question still exists, what is the motivation for participating in select leagues, for buying a 12 year old a pitching coach, for "running lessons", etc.? When did this become the replacement for playing catch, participating in Little Leagues, church leagues etc?

And of course, I'm generalizing about parents because most are just interested in their kids having fun.  But the percentage of parents who are hoping to get something out of their kids and their abilities to play sports are a lot bigger that you seem to want to admit.  People suck.  People with kids aren't exempt from sucking.  There are PLENTY of people who assign their personal status, self-worth, financial hopes, etc. on their kids.  If you're not one of these parents, why does it bother your so much to admit they exist, and that it's a rampant problem?  And it always has been, by the way, it's just now the cottage industry of youth baseball has caught up to their vanity.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 03:03:18 pm by Andyzipp »

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Being able to read isn't an option, it is a necessity to becoming a fully functioning adult, so that's not even comparable to baseball instruction.

The ability to speak, read and comprehend a foreign language (even a stupid language like French) and the effort in learning can be valuable towards becoming a fully functioning adult because it can improve their understanding of their own languages, cultural differences, art & literature, etc...not to mention you can't get a high school diploma in Texas without taking two years of a language. 

Piano lessons are the closest thing to the baseball lessons, and I think the point is that Noé was making is valid.  It's not the fact that you (or anyone) is paying for piano lessons.  It's the reason why you're paying for the lessons.  Your kid is interested and wants to get better?  Super.  YOU want him to be something that YOU want him to be? Not so great.

But you mentioned that the above things were to result in your child's well-rounded education.  That's fine, and Piano and baseball will contribute to that, but the difference is your child isn't going to become more "well-rounded" because he's better at baseball.  All he needs is an interest and basic set of skills to play baseball.

Noe's story is great, but I think I must get a different moral than you.  Noe didn't want to play classical guitar, Noe's dad wanted him to play classical guitar, he took some lessons and then he quit.  But it was perfectly ok for Noe's dad to want his kid to be Segovia, and to sign him up for some lessons, and dedicate some family resources towards the guitar.  Most pianists start taking somewhere between 5 and 7, and it's not, at that point, their choice.  Quitting may be, but starting rarely is.

Now as it happens, I'm a good classical guitarist, not Segovia, but I can play most stuff and spend many a happy evening watching baseball and drinking beer and reading Bach transcriptions or Giuliani studies.  I would never in my life, though, try to teach one of my kids to play the guitar--It's a no-win proposition, and there are plenty of people who actually know how to teach.  I would never have been successful teaching myself, and finding a good teacher was extremely important, just to know how to hold the guitar.  

I'm also an ok flycaster, and would have never learned without some lessons.

I'm a lousy golfer, and should probably take some lessons.

The only difference that I can see between that and baseball is the motive you're ascribing to the parents.  Most people aren't that greedy about their kids, nor that blind to their kid's abilities.  All they want is the kid to have a modicum of success, and to be reasonably happy.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
 Most people aren't that greedy about their kids, nor that blind to their kid's abilities.  All they want is the kid to have a modicum of success, and to be reasonably happy.

Neil, can you not see how much you are off here?

one does not need personal hitting/pitching lessons and "select" travel teams to have "a modicum of success" or to be "reasonably happy." generations of kids achieved that without parents' controlling every aspect of their experiences.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Noe's story is great, but I think I must get a different moral than you.  Noe didn't want to play classical guitar, Noe's dad wanted him to play classical guitar, he took some lessons and then he quit.  But it was perfectly ok for Noe's dad to want his kid to be Segovia, and to sign him up for some lessons, and dedicate some family resources towards the guitar.  Most pianists start taking somewhere between 5 and 7, and it's not, at that point, their choice.  Quitting may be, but starting rarely is.

Now as it happens, I'm a good classical guitarist, not Segovia, but I can play most stuff and spend many a happy evening watching baseball and drinking beer and reading Bach transcriptions or Giuliani studies.  I would never in my life, though, try to teach one of my kids to play the guitar--It's a no-win proposition, and there are plenty of people who actually know how to teach.  I would never have been successful teaching myself, and finding a good teacher was extremely important, just to know how to hold the guitar.  

I'm also an ok flycaster, and would have never learned without some lessons.

I'm a lousy golfer, and should probably take some lessons.

The only difference that I can see between that and baseball is the motive you're ascribing to the parents.  Most people aren't that greedy about their kids, nor that blind to their kid's abilities.  All they want is the kid to have a modicum of success, and to be reasonably happy.

That's accurate, the motive is the thing.  If a parent is forcing a child to continue or even start kazoo lessons and the child clearly isn't interested, then the parent is wrong.

The reason I'm concerned about the industries that have sprouted up around youth baseball is that no one is lying about the ages of kazoo players.  No one talking about surgically "repairing" their kids' tongues to get another inch on the kazoo. No one is creating a select league for kazoo players where the only requirement is can you affford it. 

There are people doing that in youth baseball daily.  And for what?  Again, what is the purpose of any of this stuff?  I don't believe it's for the benefit of the kids.  I'm glad you've had experiences where the parents aren't motivated by any of their personal demons out their in Bellaire or West U or whereever the hell you live.  My experience is that there are plenty of parents (around a quarter, if you make me guess) that view their kids as a chance to a) make money, b) right the wrongs of their youth or c) enhance their very miniscule feelings of self worth.  These are the people who are driving the cottage industries.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Whether or not I have kids (I do) is immaterial to this conversation.  I understand that parents pay for kids to do things and have things.  My question about paying for baseball instruction is what is the point?

You brought up reading lessons, french lessons and piano lessons as examples of other things that parents buy for their kids.  No problem with any of those things, because the first is a critical life skill, the second (and third) augment the ability to learn and the ability to think and create. 

Baseball is not a critical life skill, and based on the number of meatheads that I know who play, has nothing to do with critical thinking.  None of that makes it bad, but the question still exists, what is the motivation for participating in select leagues, for buying a 12 year old a pitching coach, for "running lessons", etc.? When did this become the replacement for playing catch, participating in Little Leagues, church leagues etc?

And of course, I'm generalizing about parents because most are just interested in their kids having fun.  But the percentage of parents who are hoping to get something out of their kids and their abilities to play sports are a lot bigger that you seem to want to admit.  People suck.  People with kids aren't exempt from sucking.  There are PLENTY of people who assign their personal status, self-worth, financial hopes, etc. on their kids.  If you're not one of these parents, why does it bother your so much to admit they exist, and that it's a rampant problem?  And it always has been, by the way, it's just now the cottage industry of youth baseball has caught up to their vanity.

Absolutely, people suck, and the cottage industry of youth baseball, and youth gymnasts, and youth ice skating, and youth soccer, and youth violin and piano and golf and tennis and chess and team roping all play to a parents'  vanity.   All I'm saying is that there's nothing peculiar in baseball, and nothing about youth baseball that makes it blacker or more evil.  It's just different than when you were a kid, so you have a problem with it.  Most parents, though, sign their kid up for a lesson because their neighbor's kid is doing it and it's just what's done.  If their kid gets a hit at a little league game they're happy.  If their kid can play the Minuet in G after 4 years, piano lessons have been a success.  I'll admit there's evil that lies in the hearts of men, and that Mister Kurz, he dead, but mostly it's just not that melodramatic.

"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Andyzipp

  • Guest
 Most parents, though, sign their kid up for a lesson because their neighbor's kid is doing it and it's just what's done.  


This is the heart of your problem.  If you can't see the status assigned to the described activity, I don't know how else to explain it. 

Again, does the kid want or even need the lesson?  Or are YOU doing it because YOU see your peers doing it?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 03:29:04 pm by Andyzipp »

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
That's accurate, the motive is the thing.  If a parent is forcing a child to continue or even start kazoo lessons and the child clearly isn't interested, then the parent is wrong.

The reason I'm concerned about the industries that have sprouted up around youth baseball is that no one is lying about the ages of kazoo players.  No one talking about surgically "repairing" their kids' tongues to get another inch on the kazoo. No one is creating a select league for kazoo players where the only requirement is can you affford it. 

There are people doing that in youth baseball daily.  And for what?  Again, what is the purpose of any of this stuff?  I don't believe it's for the benefit of the kids.  I'm glad you've had experiences where the parents aren't motivated by any of their personal demons out their in Bellaire or West U or whereever the hell you live.  My experience is that there are plenty of parents (around a quarter, if you make me guess) that view their kids as a chance to a) make money, b) right the wrongs of their youth or c) enhance their very miniscule feelings of self worth.  These are the people who are driving the cottage industries.

What you describe has existed in ice skating and gymnastics (high profile Olympic sports) for a long time.
Goin' for a bus ride.

pravata

  • Guest
What you describe has existed in ice skating and gymnastics (high profile Olympic sports) for a long time.

Pushy Space Station parents are the worst.

S.P. Rodriguez

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2932
    • View Profile
What you describe has existed in ice skating and gymnastics (high profile Olympic sports) for a long time.

There are gymnasts having surgery to extend their tongues?  Man, I should have married a gymnast.... damn...
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."

"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man. "

-Mark Twain

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
There are gymnasts having surgery to extend their tongues?  Man, I should have married a gymnast.... damn...

that's what your wife says.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
What you describe has existed in ice skating and gymnastics (high profile Olympic sports) for a long time.

It exists in West Texas in Barrel Racing and team roping--you want a parental investment, just go out and buy a horse trailer and a couple of good horses.  It may be new to baseball, but most parents have perfectly decent motives.

"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
so a BBA from UT is worth nothing more than a BBA from Nichols State?



I don't think so.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Quote
It may be new to baseball, but most parents have perfectly decent motives.

You keep saying this. No one is disagreeing with you about this. What I disagree with you about is how much "most" is.  Is repeating non-contested points supposed to make your argument stronger?

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Why would you assume that there's any particular status granted to an adult by what their kid does? 

Neil, you can't be serious? 
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
It exists in West Texas in Barrel Racing and team roping--you want a parental investment, just go out and buy a horse trailer and a couple of good horses.  It may be new to baseball, but most parents have perfectly decent motives.


"modicum of success and reasonably happy"

yeah, right. you came closer to what really is the reason earlier: everyone does it so i have to let my kid do it too. don't want him falling behind Johnny. Johnny gets hitting and pitching lessons. my kid may not measure up. oh, hell. Johnny is on a travel team--75 games and tournaments every weekend. we need to do that too. it is just what is done.

the motive is success, and it does not matter what it costs. just playing a game is gone forever in some communities.

and you know what? it will not make a bit of difference when cut day comes in HS. talent prevails, and all the private lessons in the world won't change it.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

I don't think so.

This completely ignores your opportunities if you don't want to go to graduate school (much less the fact that you essentially can't go straight to any top MBA program).
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP

I don't think so.

i do not know about BBAs or about undergrad degrees, but which law school matters to a lot of firms unless the applicant is at the top of the class.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 03:51:28 pm by JimR »
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
This completely ignores your opportunities if you don't want to go to graduate school (much less the fact that you essentially can't go straight to any top MBA program).

So a Nichols grad can't get into a top MBA program?
Goin' for a bus ride.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
i do not know about BBAs or about undergrad degess, but which law school matters to a lot of firms unless the applicant is at the top of the class.

And, pre-law students are told that the moment they show interest in going to law school.
Goin' for a bus ride.

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
and you know what? it will not make a bit of difference when cut day comes in HS. talent prevails

Except when politics are in play.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
You keep saying this. No one is disagreeing with you about this. What I disagree with you about is how much "most" is.  Is repeating non-contested points supposed to make your argument stronger?

So is the only argument whether 25% of parents black-hearted scoundrels or 5%?  I don't know.  Some percent, but their problems aren't caused by youth sports, it's just where they land.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

Andyzipp

  • Guest
So is the only argument whether 25% of parents black-hearted scoundrels or 5%?  I don't know.  Some percent, but their problems aren't caused by youth sports, it's just where they land.

Select play, travel teams and personal coaches for 12 year olds are all results of those problems.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
Neil, you can't be serious? 

Pretty serious, but not completly.  Most kids don't rob banks, most kids aren't olympic caliber.  I'm happier saying that my kid is at Harvard than at Alvin Junior College, mostly, but mostly parents like to talk about their kids and take great pride in their kids, and that doesn't change based on what the kid is actually doing.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

pravata

  • Guest
Select play, travel teams and personal coaches for 12 year olds are all results of those problems.

Also, elective Tommy John surgery.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Select play, travel teams and personal coaches for 12 year olds are all results of those problems.

12 year olds? one of my partners gets private hitting lessons for his 7 year old.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

MikeyBoy

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Also, elective Tommy John surgery.

There was a thread about that a while back...I'll have to find the link.
"Buenos Dias, shitheads."

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
i do not know about BBAs or about undergrad degrees, but which law school matters to a lot of firms unless the applicant is at the top of the class.

Law school is not undergrad.  I agree that grad school makes a difference.  But I don't see that undergrad does.  At least not in my frame of reference.  I could have a slanted view.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
12 year olds? one of my partners gets private hitting lessons for his 7 year old.

Can he even pick up a bat at seven?

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Law school is not undergrad.  I agree that grad school makes a difference.  But I don't see that undergrad does.  At least not in my frame of reference.  I could have a slanted view.

i think you are way off base.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Also, elective Tommy John surgery.

I didn't include that because, you know, most parents are good and just want their kids to be happy.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
I didn't include that because, you know, most parents are good and just want their kids to be happy.

and have a modicum of success.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
i think you are way off base.

Could be.  Just my observation.  I've never known anyone in my business who gave a rat's ass where you went to undergrad.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Could be.  Just my observation.  I've never known anyone in my business who gave a rat's ass where you went to undergrad.

not saying that everyone does. some employers do. we do not here, but we look at law schools.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Noe

  • Guest
12 year olds? one of my partners gets private hitting lessons for his 7 year old.

I've seen that at the cages behind my wife's office.  I just shake my head.  Most of the 7 year olds I have coached want to chase the butterflies and can't wait for the snack time after the game is over.  But they love baseball. 

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
 I'm happier saying that my kid is at Harvard than at Alvin Junior College, mostly,

why?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
why?

Because it will get him into a better law school, so that he can go to work at your firm.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
I didn't include that because, you know, most parents are good and just want their kids to be happy.

Sorry, most parents want to make their children miserable, and ruin their lives.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Can he even pick up a bat at seven?

oh, hell yes! he's on a travel team.

you should hear our discussions about hitting. he will ask me these real technical questions, and i'll say: "come on! he's only 7!"
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 04:17:17 pm by JimR »
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
So a Nichols grad can't get into a top MBA program?

No, sorry, not at all.

I'm saying that no one from any school can go straight to a top-MBA program - thus, if that's the eventual route you are interested in you need a job post undergrad (and there are significant differences in those options between schools).
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Andyzipp

  • Guest
Sorry, most parents want to make their children miserable, and ruin their lives.

No, about 25% do.  Please do try to keep up.

Andyzipp

  • Guest
oh, hell yes! he's on a travel team.

you should hear our discussions about hitting. he will ask me this real technical questions, and i'll say: "come on! he's only 7!"

This I would love to see...

Dad: "My son is having trouble going inside-out on pitches middle in...do you think he should distribute his weight more evenly through his hips?"

Raup: Get the fuck out of my office.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
not saying that everyone does. some employers do. we do not here, but we look at law schools.


Right.  We look at grad schools too.  But a BS from Nichols St and a MS from UT is more valuable than a BS from UT and a MS from Nichols St.  A BS from UT and MS from UT is no more valuable than a BS from Nichols St and a MS from UT.  And a BS from UT is no more valuable than a BS from Nichols St.  It's the grad school that matters.  Little preference is placed on the undergrad.  Again, it might not be that way everywhere, just my observations, including doing a fair amount of recruiting and hiring myself.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
No, about 25% do.  Please do try to keep up.

Actually, I'm thinking Blades of Glory. 
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
Because it will get him into a better law school, so that he can go to work at your firm.

aren't these kinda like his decisions?
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

Right.  We look at grad schools too.  But a BS from Nichols St and a MS from UT is more valuable than a BS from UT and a MS from Nichols St.  A BS from UT and MS from UT is no more valuable than a BS from Nichols St and a MS from UT.  And a BS from UT is no more valuable than a BS from Nichols St.  It's the grad school that matters.  Little preference is placed on the undergrad.  Again, it might not be that way everywhere, just my observations, including doing a fair amount of recruiting and hiring myself.

I think it probably varies based on how important post-grad education is to your field. I'm guessing what you do you basically have to have a masters, and I agree that rightly the grad school is much more important.

If you were hiring people straight out of undergrad, then it might be different. That's my only point.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

NeilT

  • Fantasy Team Owner
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 11670
    • View Profile
aren't these kinda like his decisions?

Absolutely not.  Effective parents exercise complete control over their children.
"I think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing... as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it’s on booze or women or movies.”  Charles Grassley

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
This I would love to see...

Dad: "My son is having trouble going inside-out on pitches middle in...do you think he should distribute his weight more evenly through his hips?"

Raup: Get the fuck out of my office.


you are not far off of the questions he has asked me. 7 years old.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile

Right.  We look at grad schools too.  But a BS from Nichols St and a MS from UT is more valuable than a BS from UT and a MS from Nichols St.  A BS from UT and MS from UT is no more valuable than a BS from Nichols St and a MS from UT.  And a BS from UT is no more valuable than a BS from Nichols St.  It's the grad school that matters.  Little preference is placed on the undergrad.  Again, it might not be that way everywhere, just my observations, including doing a fair amount of recruiting and hiring myself.

With an undergrad degree what matters most is who you know not where you got the degree.  And, you get that, mostly, outside the academic world.
Goin' for a bus ride.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
I think it probably varies based on how important post-grad education is to your field. I'm guessing what you do you basically have to have a masters, and I agree that rightly the grad school is much more important.

If you were hiring people straight out of undergrad, then it might be different. That's my only point.


Possibly.  Again, my view could be skewed.  Masters degrees are almost always preferred, and most have them in my field, but they are not necessarily required.  If all you have is a bachelor's, then it makes little difference where it is from.  I guess the thinking is that at the undergrad level, you all get pretty much the same education.  It's at the graduate level where you start to see the differences in curriculum.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

Possibly.  Again, my view could be skewed.  Masters degrees are almost always preferred, and most have them in my field, but they are not necessarily required.  If all you have is a bachelor's, then it makes little difference where it is from.  I guess the thinking is that at the undergrad level, you all get pretty much the same education.  It's at the graduate level where you start to see the differences in curriculum.

I know that where I work and similar firms the real issue is there are only certain schools that they recruit at, and you start off behind the 8-ball if you're not at the priority schools.

It's less an issue of saying there aren't people at many more schools that could do the job as good as better and more an issue of allocating recruiting resources most effectively (and again, these are companies doing a lot of undergrad hiring).
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
With an undergrad degree what matters most is who you know not where you got the degree.  And, you get that, mostly, outside the academic world.


From my own experience hiring straight out of undergrads, the school made basically no difference.  They were all green and none of them knew diddly squat about doing real work, so it was other factors that mattered.  Attitude and appearance were the two biggest.  A good recommendation didn't hurt either.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

From my own experience hiring straight out of undergrads, the school made basically no difference.  They were all green and none of them knew diddly squat about doing real work, so it was other factors that mattered.  Attitude and appearance were the two biggest.  A good recommendation didn't hurt either.

Shit - I'm glad i didnt need to pass an appearance test.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
I know that where I work and similar firms the real issue is there are only certain schools that they recruit at, and you start off behind the 8-ball if you're not at the priority schools.


I could see where that could be a factor.  Of course that's not a problem in my field now, they can't hire enough people as it is. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

I could see where that could be a factor.  Of course that's not a problem in my field now, they can't hire enough people as it is. 

Assuming you're talking about Petroleum Engineering degrees, that sounds exactly like what I've heard from friends; I think it's a whole different ballgame right now.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Shit - I'm glad i didnt need to pass an appearance test.


Depends on the job.  We do "practical science", which means we're not doing research or trying split the atom.  It's a professional job, and I expect people to look and behave like a professional.  You don't have to be a matinee idol, or a fashion plate, just tuck your shirt in, tie your shoes, shave, and rub off the stamp from the club the night before.  I don't think that's asking too much for an interview at a Fortune 100 company.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
I know that where I work and similar firms the real issue is there are only certain schools that they recruit at, and you start off behind the 8-ball if you're not at the priority schools.

It's less an issue of saying there aren't people at many more schools that could do the job as good as better and more an issue of allocating recruiting resources most effectively (and again, these are companies doing a lot of undergrad hiring).

Does your type of firm exist only where you are or all over the country?
Goin' for a bus ride.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

Depends on the job.  We do "practical science", which means we're not doing research or trying split the atom.  It's a professional job, and I expect people to look and behave like a professional.  You don't have to be a matinee idol, or a fashion plate, just tuck your shirt in, tie your shoes, shave, and rub off the stamp from the club the night before.  I don't think that's asking too much for an interview at a Fortune 100 company.

I was just teasing.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile
Does your type of firm exist only where you are or all over the country?

International, about 20 us offices.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Noe

  • Guest
aren't these kinda like his decisions?

Kid's decisions is perhaps the great balancing act a parent... or at least me.... have/has to do.  My son wants to go to Texas A&M.  Why?  Because his favorite teachers are all from Texas A&M and he loves their enthusiasm, their spirit and general demeanor.  He thinks that this is somehow tied to being an Aggie.  Ergo, he wants to be an Aggie too.  Our best friends are the son and daugther-in-law of the former A&M tennis coach, so he gets all sorts of Aggie shirts, caps, even shoes (those new fangled slippers/clobbers shoes everyone wears nowadays). 

He also loves science and technology, so I've been asking him to really buck up on math and science so he can make it to A&M's engineering school.

He's done a little bit towards that, applying himself just enough to get the grades he needs (middle school).  We even paid some serious cayshe to send him to science camp this summer.  I thought I was helping him get to where *he* said he wants to get.  Turns out he was the worse science camper there, a bit intimidated by the super-nerds and also by the instruction given by head nerd counselor who spoke in technical terms waaaay too much.  So by mid way through camp, my son dropped out (making up an excuse of a summer flu that hit him all of a sudden).  The camps fault?  No.  My son's fault?  No either.  Way too much, too soon?  Perhaps.  Me going too far?  Yeah, that's probably the issue right there.  However, I hope I know enough that I would never allow an elective surgery to make my son more prone to building robots ready for robots wars.

He's already good at that, you should see the contraptions he builds with legos and spare parts laying around.  I just am amazed how wonderful his mind thinks when he builds these things from seemingly nothing.  I just need to get perspective and not allow myself to push him into things he's not ready for.

This is the same kid who once told me he wanted to learn to play the tuba in the school band.  He did great for a year, played in the stage band, had the best recital I've ever attended for a middle school band and then quit that same night.  He had had enough, he just wanted to prove he could do it.  I had to really think hard about the balance between quiting because you're quiting or quiting because it just wasn't for him.  It's a hard thing to discern sometimes.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Assuming you're talking about Petroleum Engineering degrees, that sounds exactly like what I've heard from friends; I think it's a whole different ballgame right now.

Petroleum engineering or geology.  Basically oil company bread and butter jobs.  There are way more jobs than there are people to fill them, and it's getting worse.  At my company, 70% of the workforce is over the age of 50.  They expect to lose nearly 50-60% of the current workforce to retirement in the next 10 years.  They have no idea where they're going to find replacements.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
I was just teasing.


I know, but you wouldn't believe how some people show up for an interview. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Curly

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Can he even pick up a bat at seven?

28 18.5oz is what my son swings at 7.5 yrs.  My almost 4 year old uses his brothers old 26 15oz off and makes great contact.

Go ahead and "tee" off.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
International, about 20 us offices.

But, yours isn't the only one in the field either I assume.

The point is that another firm in your field could recruit at Nichols offering the chance that the newly graduated 22 year old out of Nichols could get a job.
Goin' for a bus ride.

Noe

  • Guest
28 18.5oz is what my son swings at 7.5 yrs.  My almost 4 year old uses his brothers old 26 15oz off and makes great contact.

Go ahead and "tee" off.

Do they also love to chase the butterflies or do you not allow them such ill-advised and non baseball activity?

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
28 18.5oz is what my son swings at 7.5 yrs.  My almost 4 year old uses his brothers old 26 15oz off and makes great contact.

Go ahead and "tee" off.


Have you had your son on the "Shiner growth plan" again?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
Petroleum engineering or geology.  Basically oil company bread and butter jobs.  There are way more jobs than there are people to fill them, and it's getting worse.  At my company, 70% of the workforce is over the age of 50.  They expect to lose nearly 50-60% of the current workforce to retirement in the next 10 years.  They have no idea where they're going to find replacements.

Rocks are boring and math is hard.
Goin' for a bus ride.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Rocks are boring and math is hard.


That's why they're throwing some ridiculous salaries at these kids who've never worked a day in their life.  It's disgusting I tells ya.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Curly

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile
Do they also love to chase the butterflies or do you not allow them such ill-advised and non baseball activity?

We chase fireflies or "startbugs" as he calls them ever night.

BizidyDizidy

  • Pope
  • Posts: 8836
    • View Profile

That's why they're throwing some ridiculous salaries at these kids who've never worked a day in their life.  It's disgusting I tells ya.

I've heard 80k out of undergrad.
"My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people."
  -  Orson Welles

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile

That's why they're throwing some ridiculous salaries at these kids who've never worked a day in their life.  It's disgusting I tells ya.

I'm 40. If I try real hard I could have a geology degree by the time I'm 45.  Can I have a job at your firm with one of those ridiculous salaries?
Goin' for a bus ride.

Curly

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile

Have you had your son on the "Shiner growth plan" again?
Starting slow, only trips to the beer fridge for daddy.

Curly

  • Prime Time Player
  • Posts: 978
    • View Profile

Have you had your son on the "Shiner growth plan" again?

Forgot to add that I also don't take them outside to play ball, they ask me to come outside and play ball.  They also ask me to come outside and play tag, look at the smooshed bug on the ground and push them on the swing.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
I've heard 80k out of undergrad.

Not that ridiculous.  At least not yet.  $80K for a PhD.  $55-60K for an undergrad.  But that's going to change.

ETA:  Of course then there's some damn good benefits, though the kids don't seemt to care or even know that they're good.  They're pissed that they have to pay anything at all for health insurance.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 04:47:42 pm by HudsonHawk »
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
I'm 40. If I try real hard I could have a geology degree by the time I'm 45.  Can I have a job at your firm with one of those ridiculous salaries?

I'm assuming that you could make more as a 25 year vet with what you're doing now than going to an entry level salary, even a pretty high one, but if you want to, then yes.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile
I'm assuming that you could make more as a 25 year vet with what you're doing now than going to an entry level salary, even a pretty high one, but if you want to, then yes.

Screw it then.

However, my 6 year old has a very real interest in dinosaurs.  He's taken (on his own) to learning the periods they lived, their sizes, what they ate, where they lived, starting to get an idea of the type of rock they occur in...really into the science of the thing. 

Should I rent a paleontologist for an hour a week to drill him on the geologic time scale; drive countless miles every weekend for a lecture series on the latest discoveries; have his hand surgically altered to allow him to better dig in the dirt?
Goin' for a bus ride.

HudsonHawk

  • Administrator
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 42689
  • Gentleman About Town
    • View Profile
Screw it then.

However, my 6 year old has a very real interest in dinosaurs.  He's taken (on his own) to learning the periods they lived, their sizes, what they ate, where they lived, starting to get an idea of the type of rock they occur in...really into the science of the thing. 

Should I rent a paleontologist for an hour a week to drill him on the geologic time scale; drive countless miles every weekend for a lecture series on the latest discoveries; have his hand surgically altered to allow him to better dig in the dirt?


Do you really want him to succeed or are you just trying to vicariously fulfill your own shattered dreams of glory?
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Limey

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 32079
  • Tally Ho!
    • View Profile
and have a modicum of success.

and a bionic arm.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

Jacksonian

  • Contributor
  • Double Super Secret Pope
  • Posts: 12893
  • Anonymous Source
    • View Profile

Do you really want him to succeed or are you just trying to vicariously fulfill your own shattered dreams of glory?

Who says those are mutually exclusive?  Jacksoniansaurus.
Goin' for a bus ride.

rifraft

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1799
    • View Profile
Petroleum engineering or geology.  Basically oil company bread and butter jobs.  There are way more jobs than there are people to fill them, and it's getting worse.  At my company, 70% of the workforce is over the age of 50.  They expect to lose nearly 50-60% of the current workforce to retirement in the next 10 years.  They have no idea where they're going to find replacements.

kazakhastan.

WulawHorn

  • Should Have Quit 500 Posts Ago
  • Posts: 1484
    • View Profile
An undergrad from Nicohls and an undergrad from Rice are not comparable, as a general rule.

If you are talking about graduate level hiring then law school, medical, business school etc are way more imporatant than undergrad.

B/c basically if you went to Nicohls and then got into UT law then you were one of the biggest badasses in your school. If you wnet to Harvard and then ended up at UT law you either- 1) didn't want to stay the Ivy league level, or 2) were toward the bottom of your class. UT is a great law school- top 20 (barely) but it's a big step down from Harvard law and a Huge step up from Nicohls for undergrad. But both candidates from UT law school have proven they "belong" at that level.  You'd generally never see a nichols grad hired over a harvard grad (undergraduate only). Doesn't mean that a nichols degree is worthless, but all degrees ain't equal.


Jose Cruz III

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 4094
    • View Profile
I spent nearly 500 bucks for a XBox 360 a year or so ago. I would have much rather spent the 500 on some sort of lessons for my kid. But I bought it because I can't resist the puppy dog eyes.

In most cases, video games breed laziness. Learning how to do something breeds work and learning. If some parent spends 5000 bucks on baseball lessons the odds say they will wind up wishing they had that money back. But at least they are taking some interest in their kids lives instead of ignoring them while they roam the streets or play video games that require they kill something to move to the next round.

But this is just my personal opinion and preference.
Unga bungaed by the BBGs.

"No. Humans will die out. We're weak. Dinosaurs survived on rotten flesh. You got diarrhea last week from a Wendy's."

JimR

  • Contributor
  • High Order of the Ferret
  • *****
  • Posts: 29345
    • View Profile
    • McGinnis, Lochridge & Kilgore, LLP
I spent nearly 500 bucks for a XBox 360 a year or so ago. I would have much rather spent the 500 on some sort of lessons for my kid. But I bought it because I can't resist the puppy dog eyes.

In most cases, video games breed laziness. Learning how to do something breeds work and learning. If some parent spends 5000 bucks on baseball lessons the odds say they will wind up wishing they had that money back. But at least they are taking some interest in their kids lives instead of ignoring them while they roam the streets or play video games that require they kill something to move to the next round.

But this is just my personal opinion and preference.

go out and play with your kid and save the $5000. spending money for someone else to play with him is not taking an interest in his life.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

Duman

  • Contributor
  • Pope
  • Posts: 5446
    • View Profile
This article was in the KNoxville Paper on Sunday.  It addressed the changing relationships between parents & coaches:

Quote
No one is exactly sure when the changes started to occur, but theories abound concerning the reasons:

n It’s societal and carries over onto the football field and into the stands.

n It’s the world of nightly editions of ESPN’s SportsCenter where analysts break down every move made by a coach and million-dollar athletes are worshiped.

n It’s kids who start playing at 6 or 7 years old, get yearly trophies bigger than the Lombardi Award after a 4-6 season, and are tabbed as future stars by the time they’re 8.

n It’s the high-cost of college tuition and the overwhelming hope their “little star” is a future Division I scholarship recipient.

n It’s the parents who take their “little stars” to personal trainers when they’re 10 and pay big bucks to make sure that scholarship becomes a reality.

n It’s Internet chat rooms and daily talk shows where everyone is an expert and coaches are buffoons to be ridiculed.

Quote
The problem has become such a widespread concern the TSSAA is now addressing the issue during its annual statewide tour of administrator meetings.

“All of a sudden, athletic directors and administrators are having to become a buffer to keep parents from coaches, particularly when it’s dealing with issues of playing time,” Carter said. “I think what you’ve seen — which is societal — is a general lack of respect for authority figures. That’s the general issue.”

I thought I'd share it in light of several discussion that have be on here recently.
Always ready to go to a game.

Noe

  • Guest
This article was in the KNoxville Paper on Sunday.  It addressed the changing relationships between parents & coaches:

I thought I'd share it in light of several discussion that have be on here recently.

I would imagine that in Texas, where football is a religion of sorts (like I guess in Tennessee), it is just as bad.

“It’s wild,” former director of Knox County athletics Bob Polston said. “Some of these mommas and daddies are just plain crazy."

One thing that is innuresting to me is being a volunteer for both sport related and non-sports related kid activities is the ability to partner with parents.  It actually isn't, IMHO, something to avoid as a coach/leader/teacher/mentor/volunteer but something to foster the right way.  I was at a seminar in Dallas several years ago on a "partnering with parents" conference for the volunteer teacher work I do (non-sports related, but viable in anything I volunteer for).  The thing that made me laugh then sit and think hard for a good long while was when the speaker busted out stats to make his point on why it is important to foster parental involvement.  The most eye opening was when he took one small jar of marbles and said "this is how much time a year you have available with the child including any extra curricular activities and if you were just the best, most involved volunteer out there... now let me show you how much time the parent has available with the same child...".  Just then 10 teenagers wheeled out 10 carts full of jars with marbles.  Made sense to me at that point that my influence had it's limitations in terms of pure opportunity, while a parent has 1,000 times the opportunity to do more or even undo anything I tried to do.  My wife works as a Children's Curriculum Director and of course I volunteer at her place quite often.  I also work at a children's book publisher so I get to volunteer there as well.  I will tell you with no problem whatsoever that the worse volunteers are the ones who try to "rescue" kids from their own parents.  They have the attitude that the Mommies and Daddies are indeed idiots and if it were not for them (the volunteers) these kids would have nothing in their lives when it comes to the area that they're volunteering in.  Say math tutoring, if the volunteer believes that the parent cannot or will not help, they'll take on the 'tude that they, the volunteer, are the great savior in math for said kid.

And the kid picks that up quickly.

I can't tell you how much I dislike volunteers with said attitude.  The parent may not be competent or have the tutoring skills to do the finer points in said math tutoring, but they certainly can *help* and should actually be included in the process.  Some parents are actually scared because they are intimidated by some skill sets they may be lacking in.  If I were coaching a little league team, I would never want to have each and every dad or mom to be former baseball players and throw the ball or hit the ball with college level ability (or above) in order to be involved in the experience.  That would be plain stupid of me.  If ever a select team coach or manager or a trainer tries to phase you out as a parent because 1) you think they must know more than you because darn it they look like a ex-major leaguer (and probably can trot out a resume that speaks to that) or 2) you give them the reigns because they require it, then run, not walk... RUN away!  Look for anyone in any such endeavor to partner with you as a parent.  You must be involved.  The balance should be there in what you can do and what the coach/teacher/mentor/volunteer should fill out where you left out.  And only to that boundary and no more.  Never hand your kid over to the volunteer with a drop off mentality... *NEVER*!

We have a saying at our volunteer teacher group at my wife's place "No drop offs allowed".  We want parents to stay for at minimum the first five to ten minutes so the small group leaders/teachers/volunteers can speak to them while the kids do other things to prepare for the day's activities.  It's important to the volunteer to talk to parents in case there is something important to know about Johnny's week that may lead to his willingness to participate.  Also if the parents has certain points that they've tried to instill in the child during the week that they'd like for the volunteer to reinforce, it is important to talk.  If I were coaching, it would be no different.  If a parent told me "Johnny hasn't been doing well in the area of *trust* lately, we're working on that at home more and more", I want to know so I can help reinforce that in my coaching time with the kid.  There are tons of practice routines that I can use to teach "trust" so the kid hears at home and then hears it at practice and I would hope hears it at school.

Parents who do not wish to partner like that are wrong, if they want to rule over the coach/volunteer/teacher/mentor instead of partner with them, they are just like the parents that are highlighted in this article.  I find most of those parents hard to work with and it takes a lot of effort to bring them along as a partner.  A partner by the way that has the lion share of the responsibility, not me the coach or volunteer.  Conversely any coach, volunteer, teacher or mentor in your kid's life that tries to ostracize you is seriously wrong as well.  That goes for these cottage industry folks who run batting cages or instructional camps or select teams or have the drop off mentality and want you to go away.  That is bad if not worse a situation as a over-indulging know-it-all parent and yes, I've seen them out there and I dislike them with a passion.

Find the balance if your a volunteer or a parent and partner with each other.  When it is done correctly and appropriate boundaries are in place, the experience becomes one of seeing a child grow and have a lot of fun doing whatever it is you're teaching.  But in the end, what the kid will say more than anything else many years later is how much fun they remembered having when "Dad and I..." or "Mom and I..." or "My Dad and Mom and I..."

Don't ever give that experience away because you think the volunteer knows more than you.  Don't ever ruin it for those who want to help you as a parent either by thinking you know more than the volunteer.  Partner with one another and see how great the whole thing will truly be.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 10:09:48 am by Noe in Austin »

das

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3465
    • View Profile
    • Faith Home Ministries
One thing that is innuresting to me is ...

...how great the whole thing will truly be.

Wow, that's a lot of words.
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.

Noe

  • Guest
Wow, that's a lot of words.

One thing that constantly surprises me is how often some will complain about the length of a post of mine. 

Just. don't. read. it.

:)

das

  • Key Member of the Conspiracy
  • Posts: 3465
    • View Profile
    • Faith Home Ministries
One thing that constantly surprises me is how often some will complain about the length of a post of mine. 

Just. don't. read. it.

:)
No complaining here.  I find most of your posts interesting.  I marvel at how verbose you can be.  To my wife's chagrin, I am *very* far the opposite.
Another trenchant comment by a jealous lesser intellect.