Biggio vs. Yount = HOF

[Houston]

ESPN and many national outlets are today debating the Hall of Fame worthiness of Craig Biggio. Let's compare Biggio to Robin Yount, a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

Yount
.285 avg, 251 HR, 1,406 RBI, 1,632 R, 3,142 H, 271 SB, .342 OBP, .430 Slg.

2 MVP awards (only two Top 10 finishes), 2 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Slugger Awards, played SS and CF


Biggio
.282 avg, 286 HR, 1,152 RBI, 1,821 R, 3,002 H, 413 SB, .365 OBP, .435 Slg.

0 MVP awards (3 Top 10 finishes), 4 Gold Gloves, 5 Silver Sluggers, played C, 2B, CF, LF

[matadorph]

There is no "debate." That was settled years ago.  To pose the question as if there's legitimately two sides is an indictment against those outlets. The only debate remaining is where he ranks among the best second-basemen of all-time.

[Noe]

There is no "debate." That was settled years ago.  To pose the question as if there's legitimately two sides is an indictment against those outlets. The only debate remaining is where he ranks among the best second-basemen of all-time.

Well above Ryne Sandberg, that's for sure.  Sandberg is in the HOF.

[Houston]

There is no "debate." That was settled years ago.  To pose the question as if there's legitimately two sides is an indictment against those outlets. The only debate remaining is where he ranks among the best second-basemen of all-time.

Unfortunately, there is a debate. Buster Olney, who has a HOF vote, said this morning on "The Mike & Mike Show" that Biggio isn't a HOFer because "he's never been one of the Top 5 players in the NL."

On the other hand, Bill James had said Biggio was the best player in the game for the 1990s.

I say there shouldn't be a debate, but there is plenty of debate.

It's not only an indictment against those outlets -- it's a conviction.

[MusicMan]

Sorry, but Olney was the one saying he's a sure-fire HOF'er.  Whoever the tool was sitting in with Olney was the one saying no.

[Foghorn]

Unfortunately, there is a debate. Buster Olney, who has a HOF vote, said this morning on "The Mike & Mike Show" that Biggio isn't a HOFer because "he's never been one of the Top 5 players in the NL."

On the other hand, Bill James had said Biggio was the best player in the game for the 1990s.

I say there shouldn't be a debate, but there is plenty of debate.

It's not only an indictment against those outlets -- it's a conviction.

Bill James said Biggio was 2nd behind Bonds, and that the Biggio was closer to #10 than to #1.

[MusicMan]

Bill James said Biggio was 2nd behind Bonds, and that the Biggio was closer to #10 than to #1.

That was in "Win Shares", and was a quantitative measurement.

In his last Baseball Abstract, he said Biggio was arguably the best player of the late 90s, and his own Win Shares methodology bears that out - Biggio was #1 from 95-99.  (Bagwell, incidentally, was #3 for the same period; Bonds was #2.)

[Limey]

That was in "Win Shares", and was a quantitative measurement.

In his last Baseball Abstract, he said Biggio was arguably the best player of the late 90s, and his own Win Shares methodology bears that out - Biggio was #1 from 95-99.  (Bagwell, incidentally, was #3 for the same period; Bonds was #2.)

Bonds always has been #2.

[MusicMan]

Bonds always has been #2.

FACT!!!

[Jacksonian]

That was in "Win Shares", and was a quantitative measurement.

In his last Baseball Abstract, he said Biggio was arguably the best player of the late 90s, and his own Win Shares methodology bears that out - Biggio was #1 from 95-99.  (Bagwell, incidentally, was #3 for the same period; Bonds was #2.)

For a decade the way opposing pitchers pitched to the Astros lineup was determined by when Biggio and Bagwell would be due to the plate.  They were truly hitters a pitcher had to worry about.

[MusicMan]

Add Stan McNeal to the list of people who insist on demonstrating their ignorance.

[Limey]

Add Stan McNeal to the list of people who insist on demonstrating their ignorance.

The story appears to have a rating of 1/2 out of 5.  I think this guy is just wasting bandwidth with his opinion.

[Ty in Tampa]

Add Stan McNeal to the list of people who insist on demonstrating their ignorance.

Douche nozzle.

[Froback]

How about comparing him to little Joe, whom alot of people consider arguably the #1 2B of all time:

Joe Morgan

.271 Avg, 2517 H, 268 HR, 1133 RBI, 1650 R, 689 SB, .392 OBP, .427 SLG in 2649 Games over 22 seasons

Craig Biggio

.282 Avg, 3002 H, 286 HR, 1152 RBI, 1821 R, 413 SB, .365 OBP, .435 SLG in 2781 Games over 20 seasons

Oh and Biggio has more 2Bs are 658 to 449.

Just some more food for thought.

[dirty steve]

his whole argument is that bidge "only" hit .282 and he isnt regarded as a power hitter.  every time he gets another hit, walk, run scored, etc. it seems like he passes somebody that is in the HALL OF FAME.  sounds like Bill Conlin and his " i dont think Ryan is a first ballot HOF'er because I wouldnt pick him to start game 7 of the World Series" debate.

you dissect and try to pick apart what's left and what's left is still HOF worthy.

[matadorph]

Read the comments at Sporting News. "Expert" Stan McNeal got his ass expertly handed to him.

[Limey]

Wow, please take whatever part of your paycheck you earned for writing this article and give it back, or give it to the poor, b/c it was moronic.

Nice.

[Froback]

Oh and for those that think Biggio hung on too long: here is Little Joe's last 7 season in the Majors:

1978: .236 Avg in 441 ABs
1979: .250 Avg in 436 ABs
1980: .243 Avg in 461 ABs
1981: .240 Avg in 308 ABs
1982: .289 Avg in 463 ABs
1983: .230 Avg in 404 ABs
1984: .244 Avg in 365 ABs

If you think this is Biggio's last season then his last 7 are

2001: .292 Avg in 617 ABs
2002: .253 Avg in 577 ABs
2003: .264 Avg in 628 ABs
2004: .281 Avg in 633 ABs
2005: .264 Avg in 590 ABs
2006: .246 Avg in 548 ABs
2007: .250 Avg in 288 ABs (on-going)

You tell me who hung on too long?

ETA: For those counting at home that is Little Joe at .248 Avg and Biggio at .266 Avg over last 7 seasons of career.

[Arky Vaughan]

Oh and for those that think Biggio hung on too long: here is Little Joe's last 7 season in the Majors:

1978: .236 Avg in 441 ABs
1979: .250 Avg in 436 ABs
1980: .243 Avg in 461 ABs
1981: .240 Avg in 308 ABs
1982: .289 Avg in 463 ABs
1983: .230 Avg in 404 ABs
1984: .244 Avg in 365 ABs

If you think this is Biggio's last season then his last 7 are

2001: .292 Avg in 617 ABs
2002: .253 Avg in 577 ABs
2003: .264 Avg in 628 ABs
2004: .281 Avg in 633 ABs
2005: .264 Avg in 590 ABs
2006: .246 Avg in 548 ABs
2007: .250 Avg in 288 ABs (on-going)

You tell me who hung on too long?

ETA: For those counting at home that is Little Joe at .248 Avg and Biggio at .266 Avg over last 7 seasons of career.

What's even more ironic about these comparisons is that it's not like, by comparing Biggio to Morgan, you're comparing him to some marginal second baseman who barely made it in. Morgan is probably in the top three second basemen in baseball history, so even if Biggio's only 90 percent as good as Morgan, that shouts out overwhelmingly that he's a Hall of Famer.

[Froback]

What's even more ironic about these comparisons is that it's not like, by comparing Biggio to Morgan, you're comparing him to some marginal second baseman who barely made it in. Morgan is probably in the top three second basemen in baseball history, so even if Biggio's only 90 percent as good as Morgan, that shouts out overwhelmingly that he's a Hall of Famer.

Exactly my point.  I think it further proves that Biggio should be in the same arguement as Morgan, even if he never wins it.

[Foghorn]

his whole argument is that bidge "only" hit .282 and he isnt regarded as a power hitter.  every time he gets another hit, walk, run scored, etc. it seems like he passes somebody that is in the HALL OF FAME.  sounds like Bill Conlin and his " i dont think Ryan is a first ballot HOF'er because I wouldnt pick him to start game 7 of the World Series" debate.

you dissect and try to pick apart what's left and what's left is still HOF worthy.

The problem with this dipshit is he has made up his mind that Biggio isn't HOF worthy and has gone out in search of evidence to support his opinion.  In fact, I'd wager a plate of Sheriff Blaylock's finest nachos that the dickwad doesn't even have that opinion...that he's just trying to stir shit up.

I mean, if you are going to talk about stats, how they hell do you leave off:

1800+ Runs Scored (Top 20 of All Time...Here's the list of guys that have scored more runs than Biggio--FRobinson, Ott, speaker, Gehrig, Musial, Anson, Mays, Rose, Ruth, Aaron, Cobb, Henderson and Bonds)

600+ Doubles (Top 10 of All Time...Here's the list of guys that have hit more doubles than Biggio--Brett, Cobb, Rose, Speaker, Musial)

You can then mix in All Star games, Gold Gloves, HRs, the HBPs, everything else.  Then compare him to other HOFers like Molitor and see how well he stacks up.

If you don't think it is an open and shut case for the HOF then you are wrong and should be ignored.

[Rammer33]

my personal favortie critique is the 3000 hits "only because he held on so long" or "it took him 20 years to get 3000" ... like its somehting that should be knocked out in 5 years ... WTF ... I would wager a great number of the 3000 club got there in years 19 and 20 ...

of course it took him 20 years its the fucking nature of getting 3000 hits in the majors ... its not like taking 3000 shits ... ... ... which by estimation would take about 8 years ... ... ... well for Mcneal its less and he is one shit closer ... 

[Randy Watson]

my personal favortie critique is the 3000 hits "only because he held on so long" or "it took him 20 years to get 3000" ... like its somehting that should be knocked out in 5 years ... WTF ... I would wager a great number of the 3000 club got there in years 19 and 20 ...

of course it took him 20 years its the fucking nature of getting 3000 hits in the majors ... its not like taking 3000 shits ... ... ... which by estimation would take about 8 years ... ... ... well for Mcneal its less and he is one shit closer ... 

A .365 OBP over a 20-year career is damn good.

[DVauthrin]

Anybody who thinks craig biggio isn't a HOF needs their press pass revoked because they obviously didn't watch him play.      Biggio was worthy of the Hall before the Astros won a playoff series in 2004, that just cemented it.    3,000 hits is the icing on the cake.   If people try to keep Baggy out because he didn't get 500 homers that's a crock of shit as well because he was the best NL first sacker since McCovey.