Starks says

[Astroholic]

Heard on the radio this morning that J. Starks has a new book where he rates the all time great and all time most overrated players in the history of baseball.

The most overrated right-hander of all time







The Old Man.

[Gizzmonic]

Heard on the radio this morning that J. Starks has a new book where he rates the all time great and all time most overrated players in the history of baseball.

The most overrated right-hander of all time

The Old Man.

JimR?

[JimR]

JimR?

that was my first thought, too. i thought: "hell, i don't care. i'm in the damn book!"

[MusicMan]

It's been out for a while.

Guess who #1 on "underrated - 2b" and #2 on "underrated - 1b" are?

[Astroholic]

It's been out for a while.

Guess who #1 on "underrated - 2b" and #2 on "underrated - 1b" are?

Biggio
Bagwell?

[Limey]

It's been out for a while.

There was a stink in the press about him making Andruw the #1 overrated CFer.  Borass went off on Stark about it, which I'm sure had nothing to do with Jones' pending free agency.

[MusicMan]

Biggio
Bagwell?

Correct on both counts.

And calling Nolan the most overrated - if you are comparing to general public perception - is entirely justifiable.

[Froback]

There was a stink in the press about him making Andruw the #1 overrated CFer.  Borass went off on Stark about it, which I'm sure had nothing to do with Jones' pending free agency.

Borass's reaction or the comments in the book?

And I find it interesting that you hear alot of "insiders" talking about how Biggio and Bagwell and so under-rated, yet where are they trying to change that???  Seems like that would be good motive, no?

[kevwun]

Before he actually spent some time working out this past off season, Jones' defense was way down.  According to Stark, the last few seasons he had been making around 100 fewer outs per year than he did during his best defensive years.

[Limey]

Borass's reaction or the comments in the book?

Borass' reaction was purely to defend the ridiculous hype of Jones in advance of free agency.  Stark didn't say Jones was crap, he merely pointed out that in recent years he hasn't been able to do what he did when he first came up, perhaps somewhat due to him being lazy and overweight.  So while still very good he isn't a lightning fast hoover in CF any more.

[Astroholic]

Correct on both counts.

And calling Nolan the most overrated - if you are comparing to general public perception - is entirely justifiable.

300 game winner on mostly crappy teams

Strike Outs
Nolan Ryan - 5714
Roger Clemens - 4619
Randy Johnson - 4614
Steve Carlton - 4136
Bert Blyleven - 3701


7 no hitters, 13 1 hitters.

Overrated..perhaps.  Most Overrated of all time..that is Pinwheel logic.

[JimR]

Correct on both counts.

And calling Nolan the most overrated - if you are comparing to general public perception - is entirely justifiable.

yes, and this is not a new charge.

[Astroholic]

yes, and this is not a new charge.

I know it is not new, I just think it is ridiculous.

[JimR]

I know it is not new, I just think it is ridiculous.

"most" may be and probably is.

depending on one's crieria, "overrated" may not be.

all i know is that he was HOF great.

[MusicMan]

He was HOF great without question, and that clown Terry Ryan who didn't vote for him because he isn't the one pitcher he'd want on the mound in Game 7 can kiss my ass.

But when they did that "All-Century" team, do you realize that Nolan got the most votes out of all pitchers?  For the entire century?

To say he was the best pitcher of the century is, frankly, a laughable argument.  And so I agree that "overrated" is accurate, and "mosst" is arguable.

It doesn't mean I loved watching him any less.

[Froback]

He was HOF great without question, and that clown Terry Ryan who didn't vote for him because he isn't the one pitcher he'd want on the mound in Game 7 can kiss my ass.

But when they did that "All-Century" team, do you realize that Nolan got the most votes out of all pitchers?  For the entire century?

To say he was the best pitcher of the century is, frankly, a laughable argument.  And so I agree that "overrated" is accurate, and "mosst" is arguable.

It doesn't mean I loved watching him any less.

I agree with all you said, but be careful when siting things like the "All-Century" team cause that is variable based on when it was voted on.  It always seems that players the voters have seen (particularly while they were first developing their passion for baseball) rather than players who "came before them".  Not saying Nolan doesn't deserve being on the team, but I am not sure he deserved to be the highest vote getter.

[Arky Vaughan]

I know it is not new, I just think it is ridiculous.

Several years ago, Bill James wrote something along the lines that he didn't care for the term "overrated" because, without understand what "rating" you're talking about, it doesn't really describe anything.

Maybe Stark defines what he means by "overrated" in the book. I don't know, because I haven't read it.

I think the argument about Ryan is that he was not as effective a pitcher as, say, Seaver, but you hear a lot more talk about Ryan than you do about Seaver. Ryan wasn't as good as Seaver at keeping runs off the scoreboard or winning games.

But I don't think that's entirely what people think about when they think of Ryan. With apologies to Sandy Koufax and Randy Johnson, he was the most prolific power pitcher in history, which is why his strikeouts and no-hitters are off the charts. In this way, Ryan was perhaps more unique than just about any other pitcher in history. That uniqueness is what creates the aura around him.

So, if "overrated" is defined to mean pitchers that are revered above where they rank all time in ERA and winning percentage, then I suppose Ryan is overrated. But that seems like a pretty limited definition.

[Arky Vaughan]

He was HOF great without question, and that clown Terry Ryan who didn't vote for him because he isn't the one pitcher he'd want on the mound in Game 7 can kiss my ass.

But when they did that "All-Century" team, do you realize that Nolan got the most votes out of all pitchers?  For the entire century?

To say he was the best pitcher of the century is, frankly, a laughable argument.  And so I agree that "overrated" is accurate, and "mosst" is arguable.

It doesn't mean I loved watching him any less.

Right. I think Pete Rose is a similar case. From the perspective of being able to put runs on the scoreboard, there were numerous players over the course of Rose's career who were better. But 4,256 hits is 200 hits per year for more than 21 years (just like 5,714 strikeouts is 300 strikeouts per year for more than 19 years), and that sets Rose into a different class in many people's minds.

Rose was elected to the All-Century Team, while Stan Musial had to be added by a panel of "experts," which is bizarre when you compare Musial to Rose. But that's how the fans felt, in part because they loved watching Rose the way people loved watching Ryan.

[Noe]

Maybe Stark defines what he means by "overrated" in the book. I don't know, because I haven't read it.

He does.  And it is not what people think it means.  The benchmark for rated is pretty high.  Starks book title could've probably been titled "Over Hyperbolized", but then again, it wouldn't cause anyone to talk about it and possibly boost book sales either.

[JimR]

"he was the most prolific power pitcher in history"

i do not think you can say this, Arky. he was a power pitcher, and he retained the power longer than anyone in history. i saw Koufax many times, though, and i could never discard him with a throwaway line. none of us saw Walter Johnson, either.

Ryan has the greatest K numbers b/c he was a freak of nature for a long, long time. that's as far as i will go. he deserves to be on any "All" team, but to me, he was not the greatest of them all.

[Astroholic]

"he was the most prolific power pitcher in history"

i do not think you can say this, Arky. he was a power pitcher, and he retained the power longer than anyone in history. i saw Koufax many times, though, and i could never discard him with a throwaway line. none of us saw Walter Johnson, either.

Ryan has the greatest K numbers b/c he was a freak of nature for a long, long time. that's as far as i will go. he deserves to be on any "All" team, but to me, he was not the greatest of them all.

Gibson was a great power pitcher as was/is R. Johnson.  I am not saying greatest of them all, just not overrated.

[JimR]

Gibson was a great power pitcher as was/is R. Johnson.  I am not saying greatest of them all, just not overrated.

again, the criteria determines that. on stuff alone, of course not. on results, maybe.

[Astroholic]

again, the criteria determines that. on stuff alone, of course not. on results, maybe.

W/L results?  There are several things that effect W/L record.  I guess the thing that stands out as pedestrian to me in Ryan’s career is his walk totals.

[Arky Vaughan]

"he was the most prolific power pitcher in history"

i do not think you can say this, Arky. he was a power pitcher, and he retained the power longer than anyone in history. i saw Koufax many times, though, and i could never discard him with a throwaway line. none of us saw Walter Johnson, either.

Ryan has the greatest K numbers b/c he was a freak of nature for a long, long time. that's as far as i will go. he deserves to be on any "All" team, but to me, he was not the greatest of them all.

In fact, Jim, I almost wrote "freak of nature" rather than "prolific." Originally I had written "extreme," but I changed it. I mean "prolific" in that he did it longer than anyone else, and I completely agree with what you're saying. And I do think Randy Johnson, pitching in the era he has, gets into the discussion with Walter Johnson, Koufax and Ryan. Put that guy in the deadball era or the '60s and '70s and see what he might've done. As it is, I think he's likely to reach 5,000 strikeouts, and he's virtually a lock for 300 wins.

[Arky Vaughan]

W/L results?  There are several things that effect W/L record.  I guess the thing that stands out as pedestrian to me in Ryan’s career is his walk totals.

That was his Achilles' heel. Of course, when you're striking everyone else out and giving up fewer hits than anyone else, you can afford to put some guys on. If he's been able not to walk so many guys, then we wouldn't be having this discussion about overrated.

[Arky Vaughan]

again, the criteria determines that. on stuff alone, of course not. on results, maybe.

Did you ever see Sudden Sam McDowell pitch? Was he kind of a pre-Big Unit?

[MusicMan]

As it is, I think he's likely to reach 5,000 strikeouts, and he's virtually a lock for 300 wins.

Disagre entirely.  Every start he makes, I view as possibly his last, given his back problems.

[TenThirty]

Interesting thing about Ryan, i think anyway - i was pretty young when he played - is that i don't think he was the "ace" of the staff for much of his career (of course, that may be an ESPN term that nobody used in the 70's and 80's). He was the opening day starter 9 times, which seems surprisingly little, given his longevity.  In '86 he was OD starter but not game 1 starter.

This is not to say he isn't among the all-time greats - he was my favorite player growing up - but maybe he should be the guy you pick to start game 2 if you have to win a series, instead of the guy to win only one game.  It seems like he was often outshinied just a bit by guys like Seaver, Tanana, Niekro, Scott, and later Brown...

[dirty steve]

He was HOF great without question, and that clown Terry Ryan who didn't vote for him because he isn't the one pitcher he'd want on the mound in Game 7 can kiss my ass.

I believe Bill Conlin was the philadelphia sports writer who uttered that ridiculous statement.  I think Terry Ryan was the GM of the Minnesota Twins.

[MusicMan]

Thanks - that was a very strange way to get my synapses crossed.

[JimR]

Thanks - that was a very strange way to get my synapses crossed.

when you're as old as i am, you're just grateful that they fire. the direction is immaterial.

[JimR]

Did you ever see Sudden Sam McDowell pitch? Was he kind of a pre-Big Unit?

yes, many times but never in person, i think.

threw very hard with a 12-6 CB but pretty wild. not nearly as dominating over time as Johnson, but SSM had great stuff.

[Noe]

I believe Bill Conlin was the philadelphia sports writer who uttered that ridiculous statement.  I think Terry Ryan was the GM of the Minnesota Twins.

Terry Ryan *is* the GM of the Twins.  I think MM was thinking of Boston columnist Bob Ryan.  You're correct it was Colin who did not vote for Ryan.  Also it was Dick Williams, manager of the San Diego Padres (for one) that once said Nolan Ryan is nothing more than .500 pitcher.  Don't really know what he meant, but many interpeted it as he was saying Nolan Ryan was average as a pitcher.

[subnuclear]

i do not think you can say this, Arky. he was a power pitcher, and he retained the power longer than anyone in history. i saw Koufax many times, though, and i could never discard him with a throwaway line. none of us saw Walter Johnson, either.

As an irrelevant aside, I recently learned that I live within walking distance of where Walter Johnson is buried.  It might explain the 6 baseball diamonds within a mile of my home.   Its pretty weird the things you find when you actually leave the computer/TV screen and go outside.     

[JimR]

As an irrelevant aside, I recently learned that I live within walking distance of where Walter Johnson is buried.  It might explain the 6 baseball diamonds within a mile of my home.   Its pretty weird the things you find when you actually leave the computer/TV screen and go outside.     

the hell you say! teach your kids that. my parents' generation threatened to throw away the TV. my generation threatened to sell the computers.

[Jacksonian]

the hell you say! teach your kids that. my parents' generation threatened to throw away the TV. my generation threatened to sell the computers.

My generation trumps that.  We threaten to take the XBox for an hour then give it back after 15 minutes of whining.  Then when we can't remember why we took away in the first place, we go buy our whining child a new game just to make them feel better.

[Arky Vaughan]

the hell you say! teach your kids that. my parents' generation threatened to throw away the TV. my generation threatened to sell the computers.

I thought is was your parents' generation threatened not to take you to Vaudeville shows, and your generation threatened to turn off the radio.

[MikeyBoy]

My generation trumps that.  We threaten to take the XBox for an hour then give it back after 15 minutes of whining.  Then when we can't remember why we took away in the first place, we go buy our whining child a new game just to make them feel better.

This would be funny, if it wasn't so accurate.

[Lurch]

My generation trumps that.  We threaten to take the XBox for an hour then give it back after 15 minutes of whining.  Then when we can't remember why we took away in the first place, we go buy our whining child a new game just to make them feel better.

My generation threatens to turn the back seat dvd player in the car off... then quickly remembers that we bought it for our own sanity, not for their entertainment.

[BUWebguy]

As an irrelevant aside, I recently learned that I live within walking distance of where Walter Johnson is buried.  It might explain the 6 baseball diamonds within a mile of my home.   Its pretty weird the things you find when you actually leave the computer/TV screen and go outside.    

What, and leave the basement?

[Duman]

Before he actually spent some time working out this past off season, Jones' defense was way down.  According to Stark, the last few seasons he had been making around 100 fewer outs per year than he did during his best defensive years.

The Carey, Carey & Co. of the Braves broadcast say that this is due to the Braves having younger/better corner fielders and that he doesn't have to cover as much ground as he used to. 

[Noe]

My generation trumps that.  We threaten to take the XBox for an hour then give it back after 15 minutes of whining.  Then when we can't remember why we took away in the first place, we go buy our whining child a new game just to make them feel better.

Get out of my house!  (same here, only it's now the DS that is the drug game choice of habit)

[Limey]

Get out of my house!  (same here, only it's now the DS that is the drug game choice of habit)

You can take my drugs when you can pry them out of my shaking, hot, sweaty hand.