Houston Introduces Congestion Tax (Non-BB)

[Limey]

All tolls to go up in September, but the Westpark tolls are being doubled in an effort to force some of its users off the road (and profit handsomely from those who persevere).  The Commissioner actually said "Let them eat...errr...take Richmond."  Nice.

[Bench]

And the price of nasonex continues to climb.

[austro]

Shit. That's the way I come into town (and go out) when I visit. Drops me off right by Rice nice and happy after avoiding all of the I-10 shit between Katy and Houston.

[Alkie]

Shit. That's the way I come into town (and go out) when I visit. Drops me off right by Rice nice and happy after avoiding all of the I-10 shit between Katy and Houston.

Oh no!  Now it will cost $1.50 instead of $0.75!  You may have to take on another job.  Or sell a vital organ.

[austro]

Oh no!  Now it will cost $1.50 instead of $0.75!  You may have to take on another job.  Or sell a vital organ.

$1.50 x 6.  Each way.  That starts to eat into the beer fund.

[MikeyBoy]

I live in Katy and primarily use the Westpark toll road on the weekends, but the 'rush hour' traffic is insane and something needed done. Of course, I likely would have a different opinion if I actaully traveled it during those hours. I personally think pressure will be taken off the Westpark once I-10 is complete, in a few years, so I wonder if the toll increase might be a little premature. At least the article answered the question as to why the Westpark wasn't 8 lanes to begin with, that's a question everybody's been asking since it opened.

[Arky Vaughan]

I live in Katy and primarily use the Westpark toll road on the weekends, but the 'rush hour' traffic is insane and something needed done. Of course, I likely would have a different opinion if I actaully traveled it during those hours. I personally think pressure will be taken off the Westpark once I-10 is complete, in a few years, so I wonder if the toll increase might be a little premature. At least the article answered the question as to why the Westpark wasn't 8 lanes to begin with, that's a question everybody's been asking since it opened.

Supposedly Westpark was built to accommodate the amount of traffic that would flow there after 10 is complete. The toll lanes in the middle of 10 are going to be price-regulated to keep traffic flowing.

As for the county profiting, if you double the tolls but halve the traffic, that should be revenue-neutral, right?

[BudGirl]

Supposedly Westpark was built to accommodate the amount of traffic that would flow there after 10 is complete. The toll lanes in the middle of 10 are going to be price-regulated to keep traffic flowing.

As for the county profiting, if you double the tolls but halve the traffic, that should be revenue-neutral, right?

I doubt the traffic will halve.

[Limey]

Supposedly Westpark was built to accommodate the amount of traffic that would flow there after 10 is complete. The toll lanes in the middle of 10 are going to be price-regulated to keep traffic flowing.

As for the county profiting, if you double the tolls but halve the traffic, that should be revenue-neutral, right?

I don't know that this will halve traffic, but only if it does, is it revenue neutral.  It's still a congestion tax any way you slice it.  Other big cities have 'em so it's not something new, but the presumption by the Commissioner that people have a viable alternative, when they are currently choosing to pay to be jammed up on the tollway, is arrogant and ignorant.

[Ty in Tampa]

...once I-10 is complete...

I've been away from Houston for 25 years but I still know this will never happen.

[Noe]

I've been away from Houston for 25 years but I still know this will never happen.

Is I-45 finished with their 25 year construction plan as well?

[Astroholic]

Is I-45 finished with their 25 construction plan as well?

Nope. 

[Ty in Tampa]

Is I-45 finished with their 25 construction plan as well?

If you're talking about I-4, no, and they never will. If you're talking about I-45, no, and they never will.

[ValpoCory]

They dropped this little tidbit in there.  I was unaware.  But then again, I live in Austin.

The hikes will in part pay for extending the Hardy Toll Road to downtown.

Apparently there is space to build a toll road through the heart of the northern part of the city?

That will save time for The Woodlands crowd.

[BudGirl]

They dropped this little tidbit in there.  I was unaware.  But then again, I live in Austin.

Apparently there is space to build a toll road through the heart of the northern part of the city?

That will save time for The Woodlands crowd.

I thought the state said there is a hold on building more toll roads.

[Limey]

They dropped this little tidbit in there.  I was unaware.  But then again, I live in Austin.

Apparently there is space to build a toll road through the heart of the northern part of the city?

That will save time for The Woodlands crowd.

Missed that bit.  I don't think there's "space" as such, but the properties around there are pretty cheap so eminent domaining them won't be too expensive.

[Limey]

I thought the state said there is a hold on building more toll roads.

The City wants to "add" a toll road to Hempstead Hwy, and I also heard about commuter rail on there too.  No word as to where they're going to put the titty bars and hot sheet motels.

[Holly]

Nope. 

The Berlin Wall has gone up and come down, and Hong Kong is no longer under British rule. I-45 is still under construction, though.

[Andyzipp]

I've been away from Houston for 25 years but I still know this will never happen.

The I-10 construction has gone REMARKABLY well, despite the cynicism.  They are 1 year ahead of schedule, and barring a hurricane or other natural disaster, I-10 west of 610 will be completed in 18 months, including 4 lanes of "regular" flow, 2 full time HOV lanes, and 2 lanes of "time of day" priced toll road in each direction.

[JaneDoe]

The I-10 construction has gone REMARKABLY well, despite the cynicism.  They are 1 year ahead of schedule, and barring a hurricane or other natural disaster, I-10 west of 610 will be completed in 18 months, including 4 lanes of "regular" flow, 2 full time HOV lanes, and 2 lanes of "time of day" priced toll road in each direction.

Will the HOV lanes be tolled?

[Andyzipp]

The City wants to "add" a toll road to Hempstead Hwy, and I also heard about commuter rail on there too.  No word as to where they're going to put the titty bars and hot sheet motels.

That seems better than the "other" plan the county was considering, effectively making 290 outbound only and Hempsted Highway (after a whole mess of construction) inbound only.  I suppose all above mentioned businessed could be stuck in the middle of that, however.

Woohoo.  Redlight district.

[MusicMan]

The I-10 construction has gone REMARKABLY well, despite the cynicism.  They are 1 year ahead of schedule, and barring a hurricane or other natural disaster, I-10 west of 610 will be completed in 18 months, including 4 lanes of "regular" flow, 2 full time HOV lanes, and 2 lanes of "time of day" priced toll road in each direction.

Amazing what happens when you put actual financial incentives for on-time completion in the contracts.

[Astroholic]

The I-10 construction has gone REMARKABLY well, despite the cynicism.  They are 1 year ahead of schedule, and barring a hurricane or other natural disaster, I-10 west of 610 will be completed in 18 months, including 4 lanes of "regular" flow, 2 full time HOV lanes, and 2 lanes of "time of day" priced toll road in each direction.

It really all depends upon where the latest power politician lives at the time.  I-10 is the "super corridor" between Mexico and the US, correct?

[Bench]

It really all depends upon where the latest power politician lives at the time.  I-10 is the "super corridor" between Mexico and the US, correct?

I thought that was Ih-35.

[Astroholic]

I thought that was Ih-35.

Might be.  They have moved the thing so many times, I am not sure any longer.

[Limey]

That seems better than the "other" plan the county was considering, effectively making 290 outbound only and Hempsted Highway (after a whole mess of construction) inbound only.  I suppose all above mentioned businessed could be stuck in the middle of that, however.

Woohoo.  Redlight district.

If they make Hempstead a tollway, they will increase the traffic on 290 because Hempstead carries a lot of the local traffic and is an overflow route for 290 anyway.  I suppose we get to sit on 290 or pay to use a road that was free before we paid to make it not free.

Of course, all this is bullshit.  Just band-aiding a terminal problem.  Unless the City decides to invest in a comprehensive mass transit system, we will end up like Mexico City or Rio where you are not allowed to drive in the city on certain days of the week, forcing car pools with those who have days different to yours.  How's that for personal mobility?!!

[Limey]

I thought that was Ih-35.

I thought it was 59.

[Bench]

I thought it was 59.

Isn't where 35 hits Mexico in Laredo the largest non-water port in the world?

[Arky Vaughan]

Will the HOV lanes be tolled?

Free for HOV, paid for single-riders. Zipp's right -- the project is well ahead of schedule.

[Arky Vaughan]

It really all depends upon where the latest power politician lives at the time.  I-10 is the "super corridor" between Mexico and the US, correct?

Runs from Florida to California. It gets near Mexico out west, but doesn't go there.

You're thinking of US 59, which was supposed to become part of I-69, the NAFTA superhighway from Windsor to Nuevo Laredo, but which now may not happen.

[Arky Vaughan]

If they make Hempstead a tollway, they will increase the traffic on 290 because Hempstead carries a lot of the local traffic and is an overflow route for 290 anyway.  I suppose we get to sit on 290 or pay to use a road that was free before we paid to make it not free.

Of course, all this is bullshit.  Just band-aiding a terminal problem.  Unless the City decides to invest in a comprehensive mass transit system, we will end up like Mexico City or Rio where you are not allowed to drive in the city on certain days of the week, forcing car pools with those who have days different to yours.  How's that for personal mobility?!!

I am skeptical of how mass transit is supposed to work in a city with a population density as low as Houston's.

[BudGirl]

Aren't there plans for IH35 to loop south of SA instead of through SA?

[WulawHorn]

I am skeptical of how mass transit is supposed to work in a city with a population density as low as Houston's.

agreed- there is no population center to business commerce center to make mass transit make a whole lot of sense imo.  Where is the "there" that you are trying to get people to, and where are they starting from. Population density in NY, DC or the euro cities I've been to where subway system is great does not exist for H-town.  We've had cheap land for a long time so we just sprawl all over the place. I don't see how mass transit will be viable in h-town any time in the forseeable future.

Maybe I'm an elitist snob, but I'd be happy if I lived on Westpark to pay the extra $5.00 a day if it meant I could drive instead of start and stop.  Of course I reverse commute and do so north to south, so I generally only use the Hardy if commute time on 45 is greater than 25 minutes from Rayford Sawdust to 610, or vice versa.  I guess there isn't as viable an east west road in that area as 45 provides for woodlands/conroe to H-town.

[Limey]

I am skeptical of how mass transit is supposed to work in a city with a population density as low as Houston's.

Easy.  The city subsidises it in lieu of the cost of building ever-expanding and never-satisfying road construction.  Also, the spread of population (which isn't a problem in every other city with a mass transit system), is handled with the use of outlying gathering points, just like the Park 'n' Ride system uses now.

The point is to get people out of their cars and into mass transit; simply building toll roads and upping the rates when they are overrun because there's no alternative does nobody any good except for the people who build and finance toll roads.  Give people an option, and then premium-price the road system.  Better that, than only being allowed to drive to work on odd-numbered days (and still paying a high toll).

[Astroholic]

Easy.  The city subsidises it in lieu of the cost of building ever-expanding and never-satisfying road construction.  Also, the spread of population (which isn't a problem in every other city with a mass transit system), is handled with the use of outlying gathering points, just like the Park 'n' Ride system uses now.

The point is to get people out of their cars and into mass transit; simply building toll roads and upping the rates when they are overrun because there's no alternative does nobody any good except for the people who build and finance toll roads.  Give people an option, and then premium-price the road system.  Better that, than only being allowed to drive to work on odd-numbered days (and still paying a high toll).

How about a push from our elected politicians (tax incentives maybe) for more telecommuting jobs.

[Limey]

agreed- there is no population center to business commerce center to make mass transit make a whole lot of sense imo. 

Do you think that every major European city has a distinct population center and business center?  They don't, yet every one has a mass transit system that works.

[WulawHorn]

Do you think that every major European city has a distinct population center and business center?  They don't, yet every one has a mass transit system that works.

They all have moreso of one then H-town. Or at least the 6 or 7 I've visited.

[Limey]

How about a push from our elected politicians (tax incentives maybe) for more telecommuting jobs.

...and staggered working hours.  It all helps, there's not one magic bullet.

[Astroholic]

...and staggered working hours.  It all helps, there's not one magic bullet.

Huge difference on gulf freeway between when school is in/out.  Both UH and public. 

What about limiting the travel of 18 wheelers to non rush hour driving?

[Limey]

They all have moreso of one then H-town. Or at least the 6 or 7 I've visited.

BS.  Houston's population has expanded along its freeway arteries.  They are a gathering system to funnel commuters into the city, whether that's downtown, the galleria, westchase or wherever.  They interconnect to allow people to transit through the city to a point near their ultimate destination, at which point they exit and take local routes.  This is exactly how mass transit works.

[homer]

...and staggered working hours.  It all helps, there's not one magic bullet.

You made it sound so easy with the mass transit idea. Now I'm disappointed.

[EasTexAstro]

Huge difference on gulf freeway between when school is in/out.  Both UH and public. 

What about limiting the travel of 18 wheelers to non rush hour driving?

Isn't there some port and maybe a few production facilities and wharehouses around the Houston area that might NEED to haul stuff during the day?

[Astroholic]

Isn't there some port and maybe a few production facilities and wharehouses around the Houston area that might NEED to haul stuff during the day?

Did not say during the day, just not during rush hour.  I have seen places that do not allow Tractor/Trailers in the inner city at all.

[Limey]

You made it sound so easy with the mass transit idea. Now I'm disappointed.

I said it was easy for a city like Houston to support a mass transit system.  Building one will require city leaders with some major cajones and a significant turnaround in the public's habits.  If you can get people to work from home or ease the rush hour burden, that lightens the load on all commuter activity.

[Astroholic]

I said it was easy for a city like Houston to support a mass transit system.  Building one will require city leaders with some major cajones and a significant turnaround in the public's habits.  If you can get people to work from home or ease the rush hour burden, that lightens the load on all commuter activity.

People will work from home, just have to induce the businesses to allow them to.

[Bench]

I said it was easy for a city like Houston to support a mass transit system.  Building one will require city leaders with some major cajones and a significant turnaround in the public's habits.  If you can get people to work from home or ease the rush hour burden, that lightens the load on all commuter activity.

For God's sake, Limey. People are still turning left across the light rail tracks. Significant turnaround in public habits, forsooth.

[Limey]

People will work from home, just have to induce the businesses to allow them to.

My company is too busy making people work from India.

[Astroholic]

For God's sake, Limey. People are still turning left across the light rail tracks. Significant turnaround in public habits, forsooth.

Should the light rail tracks be at a level where cars can "interact" with them?

[Limey]

For God's sake, Limey. People are still turning left across the light rail tracks. Significant turnaround in public habits, forsooth.

Better to get those people out of their cars an onto the trains.

[austro]

Better to get those people out of their cars an onto the trains.

They're trying. They just don't understand that the car doesn't also go on the train.

[MikeyBoy]

Maybe I'm an elitist snob, but I'd be happy if I lived on Westpark to pay the extra $5.00 a day if it meant I could drive instead of start and stop.  

Well, for one, it's not simply $5.00 a day, there are at least 4 pay stations from one end to the other, each way. So, $2.50 X 8 per day. Second, currently during rush hour it's a parking lot, hence the (purported) reason to increase the toll.

[Alkie]

Runs from Florida to California. It gets near Mexico out west, but doesn't go there.

For what it's worth, I-10 in El Paso has a huge JUAREZ, MEXICO exit and is only about 3-4 blocks from the bridge itself, so...pretty damn close.

[WulawHorn]

Well, for one, it's not simply $5.00 a day, there are at least 4 pay stations from one end to the other, each way. So, $2.50 X 8 per day. Second, currently during rush hour it's a parking lot, hence the (purported) reason to increase the toll.

understood- that's what I meant by drive instead of stop and start (which is what I hear the tollway is at rush hour).

Didn't realize there were four booths- that sucks.  $10.00 a day is not insignificant.

[MikeyBoy]

Free for HOV, paid for single-riders. Zipp's right -- the project is well ahead of schedule.

Besides the indications that the project was well planned, the addition of the toll lanes also secured a nice chunk of Federal change, which is likely the single most significant factor in the project being ahead of schedule.

[tophfar]

It really all depends upon where the latest power politician lives at the time.  I-10 is the "super corridor" between Mexico and the US, correct?

Umm.... I-10 runs east-west. 

You do know that mexico is south right?

[Alkie]

Umm.... I-10 runs east-west. 

You do know that mexico is south right?

For what it's worth, I-10 in El Paso has a huge JUAREZ, MEXICO exit and is only about 3-4 blocks from the bridge itself, so...pretty damn close.

[Foghorn]

Besides the indications that the project was well planned, the addition of the toll lanes also secured a nice chunk of Federal change, which is likely the single most significant factor in the project being ahead of schedule.

Mass transit won't work in Houston.  Ever.  Its not in our culture as a town.  Everyone here drives.  People love their cars/trucks/SUVs in Houston.  They aren't going to give it up.  

Complicating matters is the lack of zoning in the city.  We have a boat load of  pockets of business districts rather than one main one downtown.  There's downtown, the galleria, Greenway Plaza, the Energy Corridor, Westchase, Greenspoint, the Woodlands, and more.

More roads means more people on the roads.  

[tophfar]

significant turnaround in the public's habits. 

here is the problem.  until this occurs mass transit will never happen.

[Bench]

For what it's worth, I-10 in El Paso has a huge JUAREZ, MEXICO exit and is only about 3-4 blocks from the bridge itself, so...pretty damn close.

Evidently, it's not worth much.

[Alkie]

Evidently, it's not worth much.

I see that.

I mean, yes, I agree that I-10 is not a road that starts/ends in Mexico, but there are 3 exits to bridges in El Paso that lead directly to Mexico and a huge influx of trucking traffic goes thru those bridges.

Probably not so much from the Pier in Santa Monica or from Jacksonville.

[Astroholic]

Umm.... I-10 runs east-west. 

You do know that mexico is south right?

South Of Houston?  Last time I looked at a map, it was due west of Houston.  Actually if you want to follow the direct route, you have to change to 90 in SA, but whatever......

[Noe]

For what it's worth, I-10 in El Paso has a huge JUAREZ, MEXICO exit and is only about 3-4 blocks from the bridge itself, so...pretty damn close.

[revert to revolutionary Mexican-American AZTLAN wannabe]
Damn straight and California is *STILL* Mexico to many of us!
[/revert to revolutionary Mexican-American AZTLAN wannabe]

[WulawHorn]

[revert to revolutionary Mexican-American AZTLAN wannabe]
Damn straight and California is *STILL* Mexico to many of us!
[/revert to revolutionary Mexican-American AZTLAN wannabe]

I thought everything south of I-10 between San Antonio and El Paso (including those two cities) was mexico.  Who knew?

[MusicMan]

[revert to revolutionary Mexican-American AZTLAN wannabe]
Damn straight and California is *STILL* Mexico to many of us!
[/revert to revolutionary Mexican-American AZTLAN wannabe]

Great, now Limey's going to lay claim to all of North America in the Queen's name.

[Noe]

That was a political action. I'm a goddam revolutionary!

[Limey]

Well, for one, it's not simply $5.00 a day, there are at least 4 pay stations from one end to the other, each way. So, $2.50 X 8 per day. Second, currently during rush hour it's a parking lot, hence the (purported) reason to increase the toll.

Plus the gas you burn, and the time you waste, sitting in traffic.

[Limey]

Mass transit won't work in Houston.  Ever.  Its not in our culture as a town.  Everyone here drives.  People love their cars/trucks/SUVs in Houston.  They aren't going to give it up. 

Complicating matters is the lack of zoning in the city.  We have a boat load of  pockets of business districts rather than one main one downtown.  There's downtown, the galleria, Greenway Plaza, the Energy Corridor, Westchase, Greenspoint, the Woodlands, and more.

More roads means more people on the roads. 

Then "people" have no right to bitch about congestion and tolls and whatnot.  I do, because I advocate mass transit, and therefore have the moral high ground without ever having to back that up.

Seriously, though, the multiple focal points makes mass transit easier, because the entire volume of passengers isn't all converging on one spot.  You simply connect those business hubs to the "gathering" network and to each other with express rail service that you can run right down the middle of the existing freeways.  Then the local transit system (buses or light rail) fans out from each hub to deliver everyone to their destination.  It also means that you can go from Westchase to a meeting downtown in no time at all, and on the way read, check your crackberry, make phone calls or sleep.  No need to park when you get there, either.

[Astroholic]

Then "people" have no right to bitch about congestion and tolls and whatnot.  I do, because I advocate mass transit, and therefore have the moral high ground without ever having to back that up.

Not having the right has never stopped me from doing anything.

[subnuclear]

Then "people" have no right to bitch about congestion and tolls and whatnot.  I do, because I advocate mass transit, and therefore have the moral high ground without ever having to back that up.

Seriously, though, the multiple focal points makes mass transit easier, because the entire volume of passengers isn't all converging on one spot.  You simply connect those business hubs to the "gathering" network and to each other with express rail service that you can run right down the middle of the existing freeways.  Then the local transit system (buses or light rail) fans out from each hub to deliver everyone to their destination.  It also means that you can go from Westchase to a meeting downtown in no time at all, and on the way read, check your crackberry, make phone calls or sleep.  No need to park when you get there, either.

My dad used to take the Park & Ride on the Katy Freeway.  He thought it was great.  Is that not mass transit?

[Limey]

My dad used to take the Park & Ride on the Katy Freeway.  He thought it was great.  Is that not mass transit?

Bingo!  The problem currently is that (a) park and ride is probably the least efficient form of mass transit outside of Amish country; and (b) there's no local distribution system once you reach the other end.  Unless the park and ride has a drop off right where you work, it's useless.

[MikeyBoy]

Bingo!  The problem currently is that (a) park and ride is probably the least efficient form of mass transit outside of Amish country; and (b) there's no local distribution system once you reach the other end.  Unless the park and ride has a drop off right where you work, it's useless.

Another issue with the current mass transit system, i.e. the bus, is the lack of flexibility around coming and going, once you reach downtown, you're pretty much stuck there. I know, I ride everday. It's not cheap, either.

[subnuclear]

Inefficient in terms of what?  Money? Time?  Energy?  Congestion Reduction?   I think its better in all these things. 

There are more bus stops than you probably notice especially inside the loop where people are generally going.  You are going to have to use buses somewhere even if you have a trains. 

[tophfar]

South Of Houston?  Last time I looked at a map, it was due west of Houston.  Actually if you want to follow the direct route, you have to change to 90 in SA, but whatever......

yes.  if you want to think that trade, goods, and people, legal or illegal, are all coming across the chihuahuan desert at el paso with a crushing desire to get to louisiana or alabama or florida, you are welcome to think so.

[Arky Vaughan]

Bingo!  The problem currently is that (a) park and ride is probably the least efficient form of mass transit outside of Amish country; and (b) there's no local distribution system once you reach the other end.  Unless the park and ride has a drop off right where you work, it's useless.

So, are you proposing a system with thousands of dropoff points? Because even New York, London and Paris do not approach that many stops on their subway systems. And that seems like the only kind of distribution system that would work in Houston. Putting aside the absolutely absurd cost of putting in such a system, think of the logistics involved on a daily basis for commuters.

Let's say I take a train from Katy or Sugar Land or The Woodlands into the Galleria. I'm going to need to drive to the departure point, as will thousands of others in those massive suburbs. So that means huge parking facilities. Then I ride the train in 25 miles. Then I'll get dropped off. Maybe you can make enough stops in the Galleria area where I won't be several blocks from where I need to be, or else I can walk half an hour in 95-degree heat when I get over there.

The city is not built for it. Other than downtown, there are no parts of Houston that truly resemble the density of the parts of New York, London, Paris, Chicago, etc. that are served by trains. Even in D.C., which has a relatively comprehensive system, if you live outside the core of the city, you're walking a long, long way to get from stop to stop. Maybe people in Houston have the attitude they have toward cars for a reason: because the city was built at automobile scale, not at pedestrian scale.

[Astroholic]

yes.  if you want to think that trade, goods, and people, legal or illegal, are all coming across the chihuahuan desert at el paso with a crushing desire to get to louisiana or alabama or florida, you are welcome to think so.

Thanks.

[Limey]

So, are you proposing a system with thousands of dropoff points? Because even New York, London and Paris do not approach that many stops on their subway systems. And that seems like the only kind of distribution system that would work in Houston. Putting aside the absolutely absurd cost of putting in such a system, think of the logistics involved on a daily basis for commuters.

Let's say I take a train from Katy or Sugar Land or The Woodlands into the Galleria. I'm going to need to drive to the departure point, as will thousands of others in those massive suburbs. So that means huge parking facilities. Then I ride the train in 25 miles. Then I'll get dropped off. Maybe you can make enough stops in the Galleria area where I won't be several blocks from where I need to be, or else I can walk half an hour in 95-degree heat when I get over there.

The city is not built for it. Other than downtown, there are no parts of Houston that truly resemble the density of the parts of New York, London, Paris, Chicago, etc. that are served by trains. Even in D.C., which has a relatively comprehensive system, if you live outside the core of the city, you're walking a long, long way to get from stop to stop. Maybe people in Houston have the attitude they have toward cars for a reason: because the city was built at automobile scale, not at pedestrian scale.

1)  Yes, you drive your car to the "railway station" and get on a train.  Better to have the parking space out of town, than in town after commuters have driven to work.

2)  London absolutely has thousands of drop-offs.  Probably tens of thousands.  Maybe even hundreds of thousands, if you count greater London.  Each one is as difficult to install as putting a sign on a lamp post.  Many are on one-lane streets where a stopped bus blocks traffic (not a problem for much of Houston's center).

3)  Houston is perfectly built for mass transit.  Rail can be run along existing freeway or railway ROWs.  The city center streets are wide and (mostly) on a grid - perfect for running buses.

4)  I believe that many, many Houstonians (and Katians and Woodlanders) would embrace the speed and convenience of a mass transit system.  Especially the ones who bring packed lunches or eat at the concession.  And they'd all be out of your way when you drive to work (which lots of people still do in New York, London, Paris, Chicago, etc.).

[Arky Vaughan]

1)  Yes, you drive your car to the "railway station" and get on a train.  Better to have the parking space out of town, than in town after commuters have driven to work.

2)  London absolutely has thousands of drop-offs.  Probably tens of thousands.  Maybe even hundreds of thousands, if you count greater London.  Each one is as difficult to install as putting a sign on a lamp post.  Many are on one-lane streets where a stopped bus blocks traffic (not a problem for much of Houston's center).

3)  Houston is perfectly built for mass transit.  Rail can be run along existing freeway or railway ROWs.  The city center streets are wide and (mostly) on a grid - perfect for running buses.

4)  I believe that many, many Houstonians (and Katians and Woodlanders) would embrace the speed and convenience of a mass transit system.  Especially the ones who bring packed lunches or eat at the concession.  And they'd all be out of your way when you drive to work (which lots of people still do in New York, London, Paris, Chicago, etc.).

We already have a bus system that people are free to take, or not.

Even driving 15 miles on 10, it takes me 30-45 minutes to get to work. Last time I took the bus, it took 90 minutes because of all the pissant stops.

A train wouldn't have made a difference. And I live closer to Katy than I do to downtown.

[BudGirl]

We already have a bus system that people are free to take, or not.

Even driving 15 miles on 10, it takes me 30-45 minutes to get to work. Last time I took the bus, it took 90 minutes because of all the pissant stops.

A train wouldn't have made a difference. And I live closer to Katy than I do to downtown.

So, how far do you think people want to walk from the bus stops?

[Arky Vaughan]

So, how far do you think people want to walk from the bus stops?

I'd be surprised if most Houstonians were interested (and many even capable) of walking 15 minutes to a stop.

[Limey]

We already have a bus system that people are free to take, or not.

Even driving 15 miles on 10, it takes me 30-45 minutes to get to work. Last time I took the bus, it took 90 minutes because of all the pissant stops.

A train wouldn't have made a difference. And I live closer to Katy than I do to downtown.

The current bus system is a joke.  I go weeks without seeing one on my daily commute.

But the point about mass transit is that it is the only viable long term solution to Houston's congestion problem.  A problem that will only get worse if they continue to treat it by rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

10 may run fine for a while now that it's been expanded, but that won't last forever.  Eventually it will be over-saturated and the bottlenecks in town will be beyond help.  Your travel time will greatly increase, as will the expense as you sit burning gas at $3+ a gallon.

Mass transit would have a train zip down the center of I-10 (which was an option for the original HOV lane on it), which would stop at a couple of interconnects (say Hwy 6, the Beltway and 610) before hitting downtown.  Running unfettered at 70mph, it will get there in minutes.  Once downtown, you can jump on the light rail to go down Main, or hop on a bus (like the Shortstop bus service the Astros used to have) to get to your building.

And, as I said.  You could choose not to and still drive.  The train doesn't eliminate the freeway, it compliments it.  Those who want to drive can still drive as they do everywhere else.  But driving will be a viable option only because the mass transit system has taken the strain.

As to cost: how much will it cost to add lanes to 10, 290, 45, 59, 288, 225, 610, the Beltway etc. etc. etc. when all are in need of expansion due to the increased pressure of the continued growth and sprawl of greater Houston?

[Taras Bulba]

I'd be surprised if most Houstonians were interested (and many even capable) of walking 15 minutes to a stop.

You just put a couple of all you can eat buffet joints along the way.

[Limey]

You just put a couple of all you can eat buffet joints along the way.

Tables like for marathons, except they're handing out burgers 'n' wings.

[Foghorn]

I live in Spring.  I work at Greenspoint.  If I want to take public transportation to work, I drive to the nearest park and ride which is 15-20 minutes away (due to traffic and the lights).  I am now about an additional 10 minutes away from my office, but of course the bus doesn't go from the park and ride to my office.  It goes from the park and ride to downtown then I'd need to hop on another bus to to get back to Greenspoint.

For public transportation to work I'd need a place to hop on within 5 minutes of my house, which then takes me to a mini-hub on the northside, which then would take me to my office.  There is zero chance there will be a place to hop on within 5 minutes of my house.  And if there is, with all the nieghborhoods surrounding me it would be non-stop stops of people getting on going to the northside mini-hub.

This is an automobile city.  Trying to adapt a public transit system is just a massive waste of money.

[pravata]

The current bus system is a joke.  I go weeks without seeing one on my daily commute.

But the point about mass transit is that it is the only viable long term solution to Houston's congestion problem.  A problem that will only get worse if they continue to treat it by rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

10 may run fine for a while now that it's been expanded, but that won't last forever.  Eventually it will be over-saturated and the bottlenecks in town will be beyond help.  Your travel time will greatly increase, as will the expense as you sit burning gas at $3+ a gallon.

Mass transit would have a train zip down the center of I-10 (which was an option for the original HOV lane on it), which would stop at a couple of interconnects (say Hwy 6, the Beltway and 610) before hitting downtown.  Running unfettered at 70mph, it will get there in minutes.  Once downtown, you can jump on the light rail to go down Main, or hop on a bus (like the Shortstop bus service the Astros used to have) to get to your building.

And, as I said.  You could choose not to and still drive.  The train doesn't eliminate the freeway, it compliments it.  Those who want to drive can still drive as they do everywhere else.  But driving will be a viable option only because the mass transit system has taken the strain.

As to cost: how much will it cost to add lanes to 10, 290, 45, 59, 288, 225, 610, the Beltway etc. etc. etc. when all are in need of expansion due to the increased pressure of the continued growth and sprawl of greater Houston?

I've worked Downtown for over 20 years, never once drove to work.  In that time I've lived on Westheimer, in the Heights, Hwy 6, way down 45 south, and way up 45 north. I've taken both locals and park & rides.  I've walked to the stops, which took from 2 to 10 minutes, and drove, 10 to 15 minutes.  No bus trip has averaged over 45 minutes. 

[homer]

I've worked Downtown for over 20 years, never once drove to work.  In that time I've lived on Westheimer, in the Heights, Hwy 6, way down 45 south, and way up 45 north. I've taken both locals and park & rides.  I've walked to the stops, which took from 2 to 10 minutes, and drove, 10 to 15 minutes.  No bus trip has averaged over 45 minutes. 

I am suprised your mother could find houses with basements in all of those areas.

[Arky Vaughan]

The current bus system is a joke.  I go weeks without seeing one on my daily commute.

But the point about mass transit is that it is the only viable long term solution to Houston's congestion problem.  A problem that will only get worse if they continue to treat it by rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

10 may run fine for a while now that it's been expanded, but that won't last forever.  Eventually it will be over-saturated and the bottlenecks in town will be beyond help.  Your travel time will greatly increase, as will the expense as you sit burning gas at $3+ a gallon.

Mass transit would have a train zip down the center of I-10 (which was an option for the original HOV lane on it), which would stop at a couple of interconnects (say Hwy 6, the Beltway and 610) before hitting downtown.  Running unfettered at 70mph, it will get there in minutes.  Once downtown, you can jump on the light rail to go down Main, or hop on a bus (like the Shortstop bus service the Astros used to have) to get to your building.

And, as I said.  You could choose not to and still drive.  The train doesn't eliminate the freeway, it compliments it.  Those who want to drive can still drive as they do everywhere else.  But driving will be a viable option only because the mass transit system has taken the strain.

As to cost: how much will it cost to add lanes to 10, 290, 45, 59, 288, 225, 610, the Beltway etc. etc. etc. when all are in need of expansion due to the increased pressure of the continued growth and sprawl of greater Houston?

I'm not sure where you're driving, because I see scores of buses every day.

As for a train running down the center of I-10, the bus ride from where I live isn't complicated by the stretch on I-10. That goes plenty fast in the HOV lane and will go even faster when I-10 is finished. The slow part is the myriad stops from my neighborhood to get to I-10, which would still be necessary under the system you describe.

In other words, the system now works as well as I can envision the system with a train running down the center of I-10 would work, at a fraction of the cost.

[pravata]

I am suprised your mother could find houses with basements in all of those areas.

Oh, it was only one house.  We burrowed. 

[Arky Vaughan]

Also, how do you envision the riders getting on the train at 6, 8 and 610 if the train is running in the middle of the freeway? The buses from park and rides can simply use the specially designed entrance ramps. Would you build pedestrian bridges from the park and rides over the mainlanes to the middle of the freeway where the train runs?

[homer]

Also, how do you envision the riders getting on the train at 6, 8 and 610 if the train is running in the middle of the freeway? The buses from park and rides can simply use the specially designed entrance ramps. Would you build pedestrian bridges from the park and rides over the mainlanes to the middle of the freeway where the train runs?

Limey is just the 'idea man'. He can't be bogged down in these details.

[Limey]

This is an automobile city.  Trying to adapt a public transit system is just a massive waste of money.

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It always will be an automobile city while they do nothing about any other modes of transportation.  Unless someone's grabs the nettle, Houston will become like Mexico City where you can only drive in town on certain days, and it regularly takes hours to go very short distances.

[Limey]

Also, how do you envision the riders getting on the train at 6, 8 and 610 if the train is running in the middle of the freeway? The buses from park and rides can simply use the specially designed entrance ramps. Would you build pedestrian bridges from the park and rides over the mainlanes to the middle of the freeway where the train runs?

OK,  along the side of the freeway.  You're being ridiculous now.

[Arky Vaughan]

OK,  along the side of the freeway.  You're being ridiculous now.

I'm not. It is perfectly legitimate to point out where the train must run to pick up passengers. Look at what has been considered for the proposed rail line that may run on Richmond, and this was a consideration.

But I still do not see why trains running along the routes of freeways are a superior option to buses running in HOV lanes on the freeways.

[Arky Vaughan]

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It always will be an automobile city while they do nothing about any other modes of transportation.  Unless someone's grabs the nettle, Houston will become like Mexico City where you can only drive in town on certain days, and it regularly takes hours to go very short distances.

The distances in this city -- the spacing of houses, stores, offices, etc. -- are built on the assumption that people will drive to them, not walk to them. Unless your plan involves razing large portions of the city and replacing them with the kinds of city blocks that predominate in far denser Northern and European cities, then you are seeking to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[Astros Fan in SoCal]

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It always will be an automobile city while they do nothing about any other modes of transportation.  Unless someone's grabs the nettle, Houston will become like Mexico City where you can only drive in town on certain days, and it regularly takes hours to go very short distances.

It will also become like Mexico City where you can barely breathe the air. Or L.A.

[Arky Vaughan]

It will also become like Mexico City where you can barely breathe the air. Or L.A.

Because Houston is surrounded by mountains like those two cities.

[tophfar]

Also, how do you envision the riders getting on the train at 6, 8 and 610 if the train is running in the middle of the freeway? The buses from park and rides can simply use the specially designed entrance ramps. Would you build pedestrian bridges from the park and rides over the mainlanes to the middle of the freeway where the train runs?

well, you'd think you could build the same types of entrance/exit ramps for the trains to transit centers along side the freeway for the trains.  since they would be following the same type of infrastructure as the buses, you'd think that this wouldn't be a significant issue.

and i think what's lost in this, is not that the mass transit would take the place of cars for each and every single houstonian for each and every need of their daily life. 

but much like the shuttle buses from katy to downtown, make things easier for those that have to go long distances.  connecting the higher trafficed locations of this sprawl we call houston would be of great benefit.  put trains in from the suburbs to downtown.  connect those with the galleria and both airports, plus the existing line that runs to the medical center.  smaller lines that run to greenway and other areas.  you dont have to make every single corner available, just make it easier to go to the highly trafficked destinations.

people bitched and whined about not being able to drive to the rodeo any more.  but once people got used to the idea, that it was actually a better system to not have thousands upon thousands of cars jam packing the dome parking lot, you dont hear the whining anymore.

this would work the same.

[Limey]

But I still do not see why trains running along the routes of freeways are a superior option to buses running in HOV lanes on the freeways.

Trains carry more people faster.  Better for high-speed arterial routes in from the burbs.  Buses are better for the local "blanket" coverage needed once in town.

[Limey]

It will also become like Mexico City where you can barely breathe the air. Or L.A.

I travel regularly the Mexico City.  The first time I landed there I was assaulted with this disgusting sulphur smell...and I was still on the plane!  I thought the guy next to me had shit himself, or something, so I increased the airflow from my vent.  Big mistake:  it was just the outside air coming in.

[Arky Vaughan]

well, you'd think you could build the same types of entrance/exit ramps for the trains to transit centers along side the freeway for the trains.  since they would be following the same type of infrastructure as the buses, you'd think that this wouldn't be a significant issue.

and i think what's lost in this, is not that the mass transit would take the place of cars for each and every single houstonian for each and every need of their daily life. 

but much like the shuttle buses from katy to downtown, make things easier for those that have to go long distances.  connecting the higher trafficed locations of this sprawl we call houston would be of great benefit.  put trains in from the suburbs to downtown.  connect those with the galleria and both airports, plus the existing line that runs to the medical center.  smaller lines that run to greenway and other areas.  you dont have to make every single corner available, just make it easier to go to the highly trafficked destinations.

people bitched and whined about not being able to drive to the rodeo any more.  but once people got used to the idea, that it was actually a better system to not have thousands upon thousands of cars jam packing the dome parking lot, you dont hear the whining anymore.

this would work the same.

And so do HOV lanes that allow buses to enter and exit at specified points and then speed their way downtown and to the other major business centers.

[Arky Vaughan]

Trains carry more people faster.  Better for high-speed arterial routes in from the burbs.  Buses are better for the local "blanket" coverage needed once in town.

Like I said before, taking the bus from where I live to downtown, the local blanket coverage is what sucks, since there are about 20 or 30 stops before the bus enters the freeway. Once the bus gets on the freeway, it gets downtown in a hurry, 15 minutes or less from the Beltway to Smith.

Billions of dollars worth of trains aren't going to eliminate that plodding local blanket coverage, and they aren't going to improve dramatically on what the buses do from the Beltway to downtown in the HOV lane.

[Limey]

And so do HOV lanes that allow buses to enter and exit at specified points and then speed their way downtown and to the other major business centers.

Buses are not efficient at doing this, compared to trains, and will not be able to carry the volumes that a forward-thinking mass transit solution will require.  Simply putting more vehicles onto streets already clogged with vehicles - even HOV lanes - is not solving anything in the long run.

[Limey]

Billions of dollars worth of trains aren't going to eliminate that plodding local blanket coverage, and they aren't going to improve dramatically on what the buses do from the Beltway to downtown in the HOV lane.

You are exaggerating both ends of your argument.  And at the same time you assume that road expansion is limitless and free, will keep up with demand so that travel times never go up, and that gas stays at $3 a gallon.

None of this is true.

[Arky Vaughan]

Buses are not efficient at doing this, compared to trains, and will not be able to carry the volumes that a forward-thinking mass transit solution will require.  Simply putting more vehicles onto streets already clogged with vehicles - even HOV lanes - is not solving anything in the long run.

I understand what you're saying, but I simply disagree. Buses have the benefit of being more flexible, being able to run more often and being able to use the existing infrastructure. If more people choose to ride, more buses can be added, running more frequently. Conversely, trains are much more constrained in their usefulness, their expandability and certainly cost much, much more.

Look at the train downtown. Bus routes were disrupted, and Metro's overall ridership is down, when you add up bus and rail riders.

[Arky Vaughan]

You are exaggerating both ends of your argument.  And at the same time you assume that road expansion is limitless and free, will keep up with demand so that travel times never go up, and that gas stays at $3 a gallon.

None of this is true.

It's true that the buses in the HOV lane move at a pretty good clip now, and that's before the lanes are expanded from one to three lanes. It's true that laying rail would cost more than operating a comprehensive HOV bus system.

[Limey]

I understand what you're saying, but I simply disagree. Buses have the benefit of being more flexible, being able to run more often and being able to use the existing infrastructure. If more people choose to ride, more buses can be added, running more frequently. Conversely, trains are much more constrained in their usefulness, their expandability and certainly cost much, much more.

Look at the train downtown. Bus routes were disrupted, and Metro's overall ridership is down, when you add up bus and rail riders.

From April 2006 (can't find anything more recent):  "Metro Continues to Post Record Ridership"

The number of Houstonians boarding METRO's buses and light-rail trains continues to increase at unprecedented levels.

In the largest six-month ridership growth in METRO's history, bus and rail boardings for the first two quarters of FY 2006 jumped by more than 4.5 million, or 10.2 percent, from FY 2005.

Bus boardings for the first two quarters of FY 2006 increased by 3.9 million, or 9.9 percent, over FY 2005 - the second largest six-month increase in METRO's history. METRORail boardings increased by more than 600,000, or 12.5 percent, for the same time period.

"If you compared this six-month ridership growth to all of our ridership data, this would represent the fourth largest annual growth in METRO's history," said Frank Wilson, METRO President and CEO.

Several factors continue to fuel METRO's ridership records including rising gas prices, population growth, and the relocation of Hurricane Katrina evacuees to Houston. But, Wilson notes, other factors play a major part in this success including the completion of street reconstruction in the downtown area and a fine-tuning of routes to suit passenger demand.

"Stability of service and availability of service are key ingredients to building ridership," Wilson said. "We expect the impact of both to hike ridership well into the end of this fiscal year."

[Limey]

It's true that the buses in the HOV lane move at a pretty good clip now, and that's before the lanes are expanded from one to three lanes. It's true that laying rail would cost more than operating a comprehensive HOV bus system.

...and everything else is static, right?

[Arky Vaughan]

From April 2006 (can't find anything more recent):  "Metro Continues to Post Record Ridership"

The number of Houstonians boarding METRO's buses and light-rail trains continues to increase at unprecedented levels.

In the largest six-month ridership growth in METRO's history, bus and rail boardings for the first two quarters of FY 2006 jumped by more than 4.5 million, or 10.2 percent, from FY 2005.

Bus boardings for the first two quarters of FY 2006 increased by 3.9 million, or 9.9 percent, over FY 2005 - the second largest six-month increase in METRO's history. METRORail boardings increased by more than 600,000, or 12.5 percent, for the same time period.

"If you compared this six-month ridership growth to all of our ridership data, this would represent the fourth largest annual growth in METRO's history," said Frank Wilson, METRO President and CEO.

Several factors continue to fuel METRO's ridership records including rising gas prices, population growth, and the relocation of Hurricane Katrina evacuees to Houston. But, Wilson notes, other factors play a major part in this success including the completion of street reconstruction in the downtown area and a fine-tuning of routes to suit passenger demand.

"Stability of service and availability of service are key ingredients to building ridership," Wilson said. "We expect the impact of both to hike ridership well into the end of this fiscal year."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/moveit/4858429.html

The bad, or at least, confusing: During the same seven months, boardings on local and express bus routes were down 2.7 percent from a year earlier. For April alone, the drop was 5.9 percent.
 
Park & Ride boardings were down 1 percent for the seven months, in part because some routes were reclassified as express.

MetroRail boardings continued to rise, by 2.9 percent, but it was not enough to keep the sum of the three, which Metro calls "total fixed-route," from dipping 1.9 percent.

[Arky Vaughan]

...and everything else is static, right?

If improvement of bus services via the HOV lanes attracts more riders, then could that not lead to a traffic decrease? I mean, that's the argument you're making with trains, right?

[HudsonHawk]

Mass transit won't work in Houston.  Ever.

I take mass transit every day.  It works beautifully for those who use it.

[Bench]

Let's say I take a train from Katy or Sugar Land or The Woodlands into the Galleria. I'm going to need to drive to the departure point, as will thousands of others in those massive suburbs. So that means huge parking facilities. Then I ride the train in 25 miles. Then I'll get dropped off.

This happens all over the northeast. Commuter rails are a way of life for many.

[Alkie]

This happens all over the northeast. Commuter rails are a way of life for many.

If Houston had a NY or Paris style subway, I would sell my car.  Seriously.

[Arky Vaughan]

This happens all over the northeast. Commuter rails are a way of life for many.

The difference being that once you take the train into central New York, D.C. or Boston, you can get around a lot easier on foot. Even then, having a $15, 90-minute commute each way from Jersey into Manhattan is not my ideal. I'd far rather sit on a Houston freeway for half an hour.

[Arky Vaughan]

I take mass transit every day.  It works beautifully for those who use it.

But I thought we wouldn't have mass transit until we have trains everywhere.

[Alkie]

$15, 90-minute commute each way

I take back my comment about selling my car.

I can tell you this.  When I went to Paris, I remember being no more than 3 minutes from a Metro station and it taking, realistically, no more than about 25 minutes to get to any part of the city that we wanted to get to.  Plus you don't have to deal with parking or the actual stress of traffic.

90 minutes and $15, however.....

[Bench]

The difference being that once you take the train into central New York, D.C. or Boston, you can get around a lot easier on foot. Even then, having a $15, 90-minute commute each way from Jersey into Manhattan is not my ideal. I'd far rather sit on a Houston freeway for half an hour.

Not neccessarily on foot, but once in those cities you can get from one end to the other easily on public transportation. Living in Boston I knew plenty of people that would drive 10 minutes to the commuter rail, ride the train to town for 45 minutes, and spend 15-20 more minutes on the T to get to whatever side of town they work on. Same for the folks living in Jersey, coming into Penn Station, and working downtown or on the east side.

[Alkie]

Not neccessarily on foot, but once in those cities you can get from one end to the other easily on public transportation. Living in Boston I knew plenty of people that would drive 10 minutes to the commuter rail, ride the train to town for 45 minutes, and spend 15-20 more minutes on the T to get to whatever side of town they work on. Same for the folks living in Jersey, coming into Penn Station, and working downtown or on the east side.

So you're spending 8% of your entire life commuting? 

That's crazy.

[Bench]

If Houston had a NY or Paris style subway, I would sell my car.  Seriously.

You don't even need the extensive coverage of those systems. Boston has decent mass transit coverage to get people to work or into and around town for whatever reason, but pretty much everyone living their has a car as a basic necessity.

[Bench]

So you're spending 8% of your entire life commuting? 

That's crazy.

But think how much more well-read you would be.

[Alkie]

But think how much more well-read you would be.

Is that how they sell themselves on that lifestyle?

I know people who commute 4+ hours a day in the LA area.  2 hours in.  2 hours out.  To me, there's no job on earth that would justify that. 

[Arky Vaughan]

Not neccessarily on foot, but once in those cities you can get from one end to the other easily on public transportation. Living in Boston I knew plenty of people that would drive 10 minutes to the commuter rail, ride the train to town for 45 minutes, and spend 15-20 more minutes on the T to get to whatever side of town they work on. Same for the folks living in Jersey, coming into Penn Station, and working downtown or on the east side.

But most of the parts of Boston served by the T or the parts of New York served by the Subway or the parts of D.C. served by the Metro are considerably denser than Houston. And in the parts of D.C. where the Metro doesn't run as densely, you almost certainly need a car to get around.

I'm not saying that commuter trains running from the outer suburbs along the major freeway arteries into downtown could not carry thousands of Houstonians conveniently and happily to their jobs every day from the existing park and rides. But there is very little to substantiate that this system would be cost-effectively superior to the current HOV system using buses.

[Alkie]

But most of the parts of Boston served by the T or the parts of New York served by the Subway or the parts of D.C. served by the Metro are considerably denser than Houston. And in the parts of D.C. where the Metro doesn't run as densely, you almost certainly need a car to get around.

I'm not saying that commuter trains running from the outer suburbs along the major freeway arteries into downtown could not carry thousands of Houstonians conveniently and happily to their jobs every day from the existing park and rides. But there is very little to substantiate that this system would be cost-effectively superior to the current HOV system using buses.

Oh, I don't know.  Think of it this way. 

I office about 12 blocks away from my house.  It's a very short drive, 4 minutes if the freight train isn't in the way.   If there was a subway or rail system here where I could walk 2-3 minutes, ride one stop over, walk 2-3 minutes, I'd do it every day.  Even though it would cost more than driving and be a little less convenient.

I say this because...there IS a bus that picks up 2 blocks from my house and drops off at the front door of my office building and I wouldn't take that bus if you threatened my family and/or paid me to take it.

[Bench]

Is that how they sell themselves on that lifestyle?

I know people who commute 4+ hours a day in the LA area.  2 hours in.  2 hours out.  To me, there's no job on earth that would justify that. 

I kind of miss my 20 to 30 minute train ride to work and back every day. It was relaxing, I read the paper everymorning and whatever book I was reading on the afternoons. I'd much rather do that then spend 20 minutes driving around. I love driving, but not as a chore.

[Arky Vaughan]

I kind of miss my 20 to 30 minute train ride to work and back every day. It was relaxing, I read the paper everymorning and whatever book I was reading on the afternoons. I'd much rather do that then spend 20 minutes driving around. I love driving, but not as a chore.

Then why don't you get a job along the light rail and live 20 minutes away?

[Alkie]

I kind of miss my 20 to 30 minute train ride to work and back every day. It was relaxing, I read the paper everymorning and whatever book I was reading on the afternoons. I'd much rather do that then spend 20 minutes driving around. I love driving, but not as a chore.

Well, that was sort of the point I meant to make, but I don't think I did.

Given the chance to sit on a subway for 30 minutes vs sitting in traffic for 25 minutes (or whatever it would work out to), I'd take the subway every damn time.  The lowered stress alone.

[Bench]

Then why don't you get a job along the light rail and live 20 minutes away?

Funny you should ask, but I expect to get the lease in the mail any day now.

[Alkie]

Funny you should ask, but I expect to get the lease in the mail any day now.

This is great, because it feeds into a conversation I have almost constantly with my in-laws (who live in Houston as well).

Roughly how much cheaper is it for you to be 20 minutes away by rail than to live closer in?  In Houston, I mean.

[Bench]

Then why don't you get a job along the light rail and live 20 minutes away?

Also, you seem to projecting your hang-ups on everyone else. "Well I wouldn't take it so it shouldn't be an option at all."

[Bench]

This is great, because it feeds into a conversation I have almost constantly with my in-laws (who live in Houston as well).

Roughly how much cheaper is it for you to be 20 minutes away by rail than to live closer in?  In Houston, I mean.

I'm moving into the "midtown" area. It would definately be cheaper to live farther away.

[Arky Vaughan]

Also, you seem to projecting your hang-ups on everyone else. "Well I wouldn't take it so it shouldn't be an option at all."

Not at all. If I were moving where you're moving and worked where you worked, I'd take the train too.

I think the existing system of HOV lanes and buses works. I'm not the one claiming the city needs to spend billions of dollars on a rail system.

[Alkie]

I'm moving into the "midtown" area. It would definately be cheaper to live farther away.

"Duh."

I'm trying to figure out HOW much cheaper it would be to live in a similar neighborhood and similar sized house of roughly the same age for xx more commute time.

My biggest beef with West U (or at least the part of West U that we're in) is that, sure, it's "closer" to town and "closer" to things like the Med Center or the Village, but it's not like Philly or NY or SF, where I can just walk downstairs and go to the deli or go to the corner and get a coffee or beer or bagel.  If I want to go purchase something, I still have to get in my car, even if the ride is a little shorter.  To me, that doesn't seem to be worth the premium they think they can justify here.

I love Houston and my year-plus here so far has been great.  My biggest gripe is that I feel like Houston is 100 little towns that all happen to be right up next to each other instead of a big metropolitan city.  I know "Midtown" is trying to conjure that feeling, but it still doesn't feel the same. 

[Limey]

If improvement of bus services via the HOV lanes attracts more riders, then could that not lead to a traffic decrease? I mean, that's the argument you're making with trains, right?

In the short term, perhaps yes.  In the long term buses have limited carrying capacity and adding more buses will exacerbate the traffic issue on the freeways.

[Limey]

This happens all over the northeast. Commuter rails are a way of life for millions upon millions.

FIFY.

[Arky Vaughan]

In the short term, perhaps yes.  In the long term buses have limited carrying capacity and adding more buses will exacerbate the traffic issue on the freeways.

Not if each bus pulls cars off the freeway.

[Limey]

If Houston had a NY or Paris style subway, I would sell my car.  Seriously.

In London I lived in the 'burbs.  I didn't own a car (that worked).  PLus, I was mostly too drunk to drive it anyway.

[Alkie]

In London I lived in the 'burbs.  I didn't own a car (that worked).  PLus, I was mostly too drunk to drive it anyway.

Ah ha.  See, you joke, but this would actually be important. 

If I knew we could jump on a safe subway and go downtown or midtown or the village or where ever and have a nice long dinner with wine and/or beer and go out afterwards and just jump back on the subway instead of attempting to drive home drunk, that would be great.  It would absolutely change how and where we eat and spend our evenings.

[pravata]

If Houston had a NY or Paris style subway, I would sell my car.  Seriously.

I love NY.  Walk 3 blocks, take the stairs into a hole in the ground, get on the subway, eventually you could be in New Jersey.  If that's what you want.  If you drive a car every day to and from work and you have another alternative, or can't figure out another alternative, you are quite literally (and not that bullshit definition of literally) slowly strangling children. 

[Bench]

Ah ha.  See, you joke, but this would actually be important. 

If I knew we could jump on a safe subway and go downtown or midtown or the village or where ever and have a nice long dinner with wine and/or beer and go out afterwards and just jump back on the subway instead of attempting to drive home drunk, that would be great.  It would absolutely change how and where we eat and spend our evenings.

Generally, if that place is less than a half hour walk, I walk there, drink as much as I want, and take a cab home.

[tophfar]

The difference being that once you take the train into central New York, D.C. or Boston, you can get around a lot easier on foot. Even then, having a $15, 90-minute commute each way from Jersey into Manhattan is not my ideal. I'd far rather sit on a Houston freeway for half an hour.

Seriously do people really have this big aversion to walking a few blocks? 

[mihoba]

After spending a week in Portland this month, I now throughly understand the benefits of a light rail system. It was free for the entire downtown area, never had to wait for than five minutes for a train in either direction, and it was easy enough to stumble onto and return to the hotel safe haven after hours and hours of micro brewery sampling.

[Bench]

Seriously do people really have this big aversion to walking a few blocks? 

In this part of the world? Yes.

[chuck]

I'll be fascinated to see what happens in ten years when gas is today's equivalent of $5 a gallon and it takes an hour and a half to get to downtown in the morning from the Woodlands, Katy, Sugar Land or Pearland.

Don't come crying to me, suburbanites. Enjoy your big lawn and your fifth bedroom.

[Frobie]

This is an interesting discussion.

I'm moving into the "midtown" area. It would definately be cheaper to live farther away.

The wife and I live just across the spur so I'm technically in the Montrose area.  We both work in the Medical Center so we carpool to and from work.  We only own one car.   (When I tell people this I am usually met with disbelief and/or derision.)  The light rail works out perfectly for days when one of us needs to stay late or take the car somewhere during the day or whatever.  Between the two of us we drive about 5,000 miles a year.  We put gas in the car every 3-4 weeks.  It wouldn't work for everyone but we absolutely love it.

[Arky Vaughan]

Seriously do people really have this big aversion to walking a few blocks? 

Would a rail system superimposed on the existing Houston streets place stops just a few blocks from each other?

If you're talking about a line run down Richmond from downtown to the Galleria, that's great for getting to places along Richmond if the stops are frequent enough. How far off Richmond do you think that will draw from? To Alabama, Westheimer, San Felipe?

[Arky Vaughan]

I'll be fascinated to see what happens in ten years when gas is today's equivalent of $5 a gallon and it takes an hour and a half to get to downtown in the morning from the Woodlands, Katy, Sugar Land or Pearland.

Don't come crying to me, suburbanites. Enjoy your big lawn and your fifth bedroom.

That might get even more people taking the bus, which runs from all those places into downtown.

[chuck]

That might get even more people taking the bus, which runs from all those places into downtown.

I should say that I see the bus system as a far more usable, practical, politically palatable and expedient than a train system. These monkeys should have build a train system along pre-existing rail lines 25 years ago. Had they, I think that the culture in Houston would have adapted. But they didn't.

[JackAstro]

After spending a week in Portland this month, I now throughly understand the benefits of a light rail system. It was free for the entire downtown area, never had to wait for than five minutes for a train in either direction, and it was easy enough to stumble onto and return to the hotel safe haven after hours and hours of micro brewery sampling.

My wife and I did that for a week about 7 years ago. It was heaven. I stumbled through every part downtown at all times of the day and night, cruising from one brewhouse to the next on the free rail. The taxpaying citizens of that city are heroes for paying for my wonderful, wonderful drunk train. I owe them a tremendous debt. Damn fine brewers, too.

[Limey]

Seriously do people really have this big aversion to walking a few blocks? 

George Bush, quoted in this article:

"Global warming threatens us all, whether we're mowing our lawns, rafting down a river in a national park, or driving to the end of the driveway to get our mail."

[Limey]

I'll be fascinated to see what happens in ten years when gas is today's equivalent of $5 a gallon and it takes an hour and a half to get to downtown in the morning from the Woodlands, Katy, Sugar Land or Pearland.

Don't come crying to me, suburbanites. Enjoy your big lawn and your fifth bedroom.

Which brings us full circle:  the city has just announced that it will surcharge people using a toll road for no other reason than to stop them using that toll road.  "Iceberg!  Dead ahead!"

[Limey]

That might get even more people taking the bus, which runs from all those places into downtown.

You've been arguing that mass transit won't work because people can't get to where they're going once they reach the end of the line.  Now you're saying that, in the future, more people will use the joke of a public transport system that Houston already has.  Which is it?

And it shouldn't be overlooked that, in an unrelated thread on this very board, people are choosing to stay at a hotel which is near to Houston's only effort at mass transit, because it's so easy and convenient.  If you build it, they will come!

[JGrave]

Want to solve traffic congestion?  It's easy.  Ban cellphones during rush hour!

I was trapped behind a woman in her Ford Expedition that was putting on makeup AND yakking on her cellphone in rush hour traffic this morning.

[BudGirl]

Want to solve traffic congestion?  It's easy.  Ban cellphones during rush hour!

I was trapped behind a woman in her Ford Expedition that was putting on makeup AND yakking on her cellphone in rush hour traffic this morning.

sorry.

Just kidding, I don't drive an expedition.

[Limey]

Want to solve traffic congestion?  It's easy.  Ban cellphones during rush hour!

I was trapped behind a woman in her Ford Expedition that was putting on makeup AND yakking on her cellphone in rush hour traffic this morning.

Report: 98 Percent Of U.S. Commuters Favor Public Transportation For Others.

[Arky Vaughan]

You've been arguing that mass transit won't work because people can't get to where they're going once they reach the end of the line.  Now you're saying that, in the future, more people will use the joke of a public transport system that Houston already has.  Which is it?

They get where they're going at the end of the line by bus, which is the case now and would be the case even under what you're advocating. I don't think it's particularly efficient or convenient in most situations, but it's surely not going to be supplanted by a comprehensive, block-by-block rail system in most parts of the city anytime soon.

Based on your comments, my understanding is that you believe Houston should have rail lines running along the major freeway routes. My point is that's the most efficient part of the system already. If you can drive to a park-and-ride or are close enough to a bus route that takes the HOV, you can get downtown quickly. I respectfully disagree that rail would be a cost-effective improvement on that.

[Limey]

They get where they're going at the end of the line by bus, which is the case now and would be the case even under what you're advocating. I don't think it's particularly efficient or convenient in most situations, but it's surely not going to be supplanted by a comprehensive, block-by-block rail system in most parts of the city anytime soon.

That's not what I'm saying.  I suggest using rail for the long-distance trips from the far, flung population centers (Katy, Woodlands, Kingwood/Humble etc. etc.).  Intra-town would be light rail on (or more likely over) major streets with buses for the door-to-door delivery.

Based on your comments, my understanding is that you believe Houston should have rail lines running along the major freeway routes. My point is that's the most efficient part of the system already. If you can drive to a park-and-ride or are close enough to a bus route that takes the HOV, you can get downtown quickly. I respectfully disagree that rail would be a cost-effective improvement on that.

That's because you're looking at things as they are now, and saying that it's fine so there's no need to plan for anything else in the future.  This city has been expanding ever since they made home air conditioning affordable.  It shows no sign of stopping but it is beginning to reach saturation point as far as freeway expansion is concerned.  The costs of building freeways and driving on them is increasing, while commute times continue to rise.  And at what point does bringing more vehicles into Houston's city center bring it to a sweaty, noisy, smelly grinding halt?

[subnuclear]

I think the Park & Ride could be an effective tool in reducing commuter traffic if the fares were reduced, more buses were used and more lanes dedicated during commuting hours.  I think you have to try those things before you commit to the trauma of 5-15 years of building a huge rail system.

I live in the DC suburbs of Maryland.  The commuter train system is a useful way of getting to downtown and the buses seem to cover a lot of the other places. However, the car traffic is still horrible, the tax burden is high and there is lots of sprawl.  In addition, the housing prices in the DC area are ridiculous and crime around some of the stations is significant.    Crime and expensive housing are the things that make people want to live in the ex-burbs in the first place.  Trains don't help with that.

[Limey]

I think the Park & Ride could be an effective tool in reducing commuter traffic if the fares were reduced, more buses were used and more lanes dedicated during commuting hours.  I think you have to try those things before you commit to the trauma of 5-15 years of building a huge rail system.

I live in the DC suburbs of Maryland.  The commuter train system is a useful way of getting to downtown and the buses seem to cover a lot of the other places. However, the car traffic is still horrible, the tax burden is high and there is lots of sprawl.  In addition, the housing prices in the DC area are ridiculous and crime around some of the stations is significant.    Crime and expensive housing are the things that make people want to live in the ex-burbs in the first place.  Trains don't help with that.

Mixing in more and more buses with regular commuter traffic will slow both down.  I agree that an expanded park & ride would help, but at some point congestion will get to the point where buses can't shift enough people over the distances required in an efficient manner.

[BizidyDizidy]

Mixing in more and more buses with regular commuter traffic will slow both down.  I agree that an expanded park & ride would help, but at some point congestion will get to the point where buses can't shift enough people over the distances required in an efficient manner.

I don't understand how you think that putting more buses in an HOV lane will take space away from cars, but  don't see that turning those HOV lanes into train tracks will completely remove that space.

[Limey]

I don't understand how you think that putting more buses in an HOV lane will take space away from cars, but  don't see that turning those HOV lanes into train tracks will completely remove that space.

Because at the end of those HOV lanes, all those buses and cars are disgorged onto the already choked city streets.

[Randy Watson]

We need to expand freeways some, but seriously no matter how wide you make them traffic will still back up terribly on entrance and exits and cross streets.  Rail is the way to go.  The money we spend on it now will seem like a bargain in 30 years.

But by all means keep building monstrous freeways to suburbs.  All it does is make my property inside the loop more valuable.  Up over $100k since I bought it for $250k in 2003.

[Foghorn]

We need to expand freeways some, but seriously no matter how wide you make them traffic will still back up terribly on entrance and exits and cross streets.  Rail is the way to go.  The money we spend on it now will seem like a bargain in 30 years.

And herein lies one of the problems.  For "rail" to work, your're going to need the co-operation of more than just Harris County.  Montgomery COunty (read:  The Woodlands) is not going to pay a single dime to facilitate development of a mass transit system for Houston/Harris County.  The Woodlands is becoming more and more self-contained every day.  New office buldings are being constructed, and more and more businesses are moving up there.

[Limey]

And herein lies one of the problems.  For "rail" to work, your're going to need the co-operation of more than just Harris County.  Montgomery COunty (read:  The Woodlands) is not going to pay a single dime to facilitate development of a mass transit system for Houston/Harris County.  The Woodlands is becoming more and more self-contained every day.  New office buldings are being constructed, and more and more businesses are moving up there.

This is a counter to the mass transit argument that hasn't been discussed yet:  that businesses will move out of congested areas.  I'm sure those who can, will.  But Houston isn't going to want to lose all those tax dollars to other cities and so will need to do something to keep what they have and attract more.

[WulawHorn]

I worked as an intern in DC and took the subway to work every day. I'd have rather driven, but there was no parking, and a benefit to the bus/subway (you could drink after work and stumble home).

It meant waiting 5-10 minutes for a bus, riding the bus 10 minutes to the subway, waiting for the subway etc. It made my commute between 30 and  45 minutes, depending on waiting for the bus and subway, while driving would have been 15 minutes or so.  That wasn't the part that would really suck in h-town though. Imagine waiting outside in the 90-100 degree heat, with humidity, and walking 3-5 blocks to get from the subway to your office in a suit.

I'd be sweating like a pig by the time I got to the office during the summer time.  The other months of the year I'd be ok with doing that- especially if it saved money from huge parking bills, and/or allowed happy hour participation.

[Arky Vaughan]

That's not what I'm saying.  I suggest using rail for the long-distance trips from the far, flung population centers (Katy, Woodlands, Kingwood/Humble etc. etc.).  Intra-town would be light rail on (or more likely over) major streets with buses for the door-to-door delivery.

That's because you're looking at things as they are now, and saying that it's fine so there's no need to plan for anything else in the future.  This city has been expanding ever since they made home air conditioning affordable.  It shows no sign of stopping but it is beginning to reach saturation point as far as freeway expansion is concerned.  The costs of building freeways and driving on them is increasing, while commute times continue to rise.  And at what point does bringing more vehicles into Houston's city center bring it to a sweaty, noisy, smelly grinding halt?

I've already recognized your first point -- you're talking about commuter rail moreso than rail within the city's core. I think that's at least more realistic, but ...

... as to your second point, I don't think you've substantiated that the HOV lanes are going to be clogged to death in 10, 20 or even 30 years with too much bus traffic. The HOV lanes on 10 weren't in too bad a shape before the construction, and now they're going to be six whereas now they are one. Unless you're talking about the city growing to 10 million people, I don't see how this makes a cost-effective justification for rail on those routes.

[Arky Vaughan]

Because at the end of those HOV lanes, all those buses and cars are disgorged onto the already choked city streets.

Do you drive downtown very often? Other than after a sporting or arts event, it's hardly ever "choked."

Plus, with commuter rail, wouldn't you have to have buses waiting downtown to take the debarking passengers to their local points of destination? If there are so many long-distance commuters that trains are needed, wouldn't the same "choking" effect occur when they get downtown and get on their buses?

[Arky Vaughan]

And herein lies one of the problems.  For "rail" to work, your're going to need the co-operation of more than just Harris County.  Montgomery COunty (read:  The Woodlands) is not going to pay a single dime to facilitate development of a mass transit system for Houston/Harris County.  The Woodlands is becoming more and more self-contained every day.  New office buldings are being constructed, and more and more businesses are moving up there.

Which also belies the notion that the city will keep growing until it turns to total gridlock. People can live close to their jobs, which are not necessarily or even primarily in the city's core.

[Arky Vaughan]

I worked as an intern in DC and took the subway to work every day. I'd have rather driven, but there was no parking, and a benefit to the bus/subway (you could drink after work and stumble home).

It meant waiting 5-10 minutes for a bus, riding the bus 10 minutes to the subway, waiting for the subway etc. It made my commute between 30 and  45 minutes, depending on waiting for the bus and subway, while driving would have been 15 minutes or so.  That wasn't the part that would really suck in h-town though. Imagine waiting outside in the 90-100 degree heat, with humidity, and walking 3-5 blocks to get from the subway to your office in a suit.

I'd be sweating like a pig by the time I got to the office during the summer time.  The other months of the year I'd be ok with doing that- especially if it saved money from huge parking bills, and/or allowed happy hour participation.

As a summer intern, you probably didn't have the lovely experience of trudging through snow for several winters. Of course, a little ice on the tracks shuts down the Metro, and then everybody's stuck.

[Limey]

Do you drive downtown very often? Other than after a sporting or arts event, it's hardly ever "choked."

Plus, with commuter rail, wouldn't you have to have buses waiting downtown to take the debarking passengers to their local points of destination? If there are so many long-distance commuters that trains are needed, wouldn't the same "choking" effect occur when they get downtown and get on their buses?

Wait:  downtown is not choked, but would be choked if there were less cars and more buses.  M'kay.

Downtown isn't choked itself, but it's surrounded by clogged freeways.  Bringing people in there (and the Galleria) by mass transit means that those freeways aren't clogged for drivers who aren't going to those destinations, or are, but cannot or will not give up their car.

[Limey]

As a summer intern, you probably didn't have the lovely experience of trudging through snow for several winters. Of course, a little ice on the tracks shuts down the Metro, and then everybody's stuck.

They do not have this problem in Scandinavia because they built their system to handle their weather.  DC's fuck-up in the regard is not an indictment of mass transit as a whole.

[Limey]

Which also belies the notion that the city will keep growing until it turns to total gridlock. People can live close to their jobs, which are not necessarily or even primarily in the city's core.

So you think the city will be happy to lose revenue to other places?  What if companies moves, not to the Woodlands, but to Oklahoma, or Nebraska, or India?  Maybe even El Paso?!!  The city will be forced to do whatever it takes to maintain and encourage business within its borders.

And don't underestimate what companies will ask their employees to endure in order to save a bit of cash.  My firm moved into the WTC after the first attack on it in the early 90s because they were offered significant incentives.  Lots of tenants had moved out, it seems, because of that attack - which was intended to bring down both towers by toppling one into the other - and its continued status as terrorist target #1.  We lost 173 on 9/11; I'm amazed that there hasn't been a lawsuit.

[Randy Watson]

There is little congestion inside the loop.  I live in Afton Oaks.  It takes me about 15 minutes to travel the 5.5 miles from my house to my parking spot downtown.  Whether I take 59, Richmond, or San Felipe to Allen Parkway.  Same on the way home.  I exit Newcastle and there is rarely much of a slowdown inside the loop.

[tophfar]

That wasn't the part that would really suck in h-town though. Imagine waiting outside in the 90-100 degree heat, with humidity, and walking 3-5 blocks to get from the subway to your office in a suit.

lots of businesses, even downtown, are allowing business casual all week during the summer nowadays.  much less the fact that it's not 90-100 at 6-8 am even during the middle of august.

and cmon 3-5 blocks?  if one can't walk 3-5 blocks, put the goddamn mcdonalds down.  go to a park.  and start walking.

[tophfar]

There is little congestion inside the loop.  I live in Afton Oaks.  It takes me about 15 minutes to travel the 5.5 miles from my house to my parking spot downtown.  Whether I take 59, Richmond, or San Felipe to Allen Parkway.  Same on the way home.  I exit Newcastle and there is rarely much of a slowdown inside the loop.

you're insane.  59 inside the loop, both inbound and outbound, to at least the spur sucks donkeyballs during morning and evening rush hour(s).

[WulawHorn]

lots of businesses, even downtown, are allowing business casual all week during the summer nowadays.  much less the fact that it's not 90-100 at 6-8 am even during the middle of august.

and cmon 3-5 blocks?  if one can't walk 3-5 blocks, put the goddamn mcdonalds down.  go to a park.  and start walking.

Yesterday I walked outside to my car at 6:45 AM and I thought I was in a sauna. If I was wearing a suit and going to day at work I would not want to walk in those conditions.

I play golf and walk 18 holes during the summer time occasionally. It is not that I can't walk 5 blocks, it is that I am a sweaty freaking mess after doing so.  I would not be interested in starting my work day this way.  It's ok wearing shorts and a golf shirt.  Not so much in business or even casual business attire, stuck there throughout the day.

[Limey]

There is little congestion inside the loop.  I live in Afton Oaks.  It takes me about 15 minutes to travel the 5.5 miles from my house to my parking spot downtown.  Whether I take 59, Richmond, or San Felipe to Allen Parkway.  Same on the way home.  I exit Newcastle and there is rarely much of a slowdown inside the loop.

Mrs Limey and I have a firm intention of moving inside the Loop; the Heights specifically.  However, every time we blink, my house value drops because we're on 290 which is now the worst freeway in Houston, and the Heights skyrockets.

You are correct that the inner Loop traffic is mostly fine.  I used to work near downtown and once I hit I-10 inside the Loop, it was an absolute breeze.  This is because the vast majority of those who work in the city are jammed up for days trying to get past Hwy 6, the Beltway and the Loop itself.

[WulawHorn]

Mrs Limey and I have a firm intention of moving inside the Loop; the Heights specifically.  However, every time we blink, my house value drops because we're on 290 which is now the worst freeway in Houston, and the Heights skyrockets.

You are correct that the inner Loop traffic is mostly fine.  I used to work near downtown and once I hit I-10 inside the Loop, it was an absolute breeze.  This is because the vast majority of those who work in the city are jammed up for days trying to get past Hwy 6, the Beltway and the Loop itself.

I've never had any particular problem trying to get around inside the loop from my house at Shepherd and Allen Parkway.

It is easy to take Allen Parkway over to the downtown place, and even westheimer to the galleria around 8:00- 8:30 am isn't that bad.  Traffic inside the loop on 45 doesn't seem that bad to me either. Outside the loop it is a different story for sure, but enough people go enough different ways that 45 ain't all that bad. 59 is pretty much a mess everywhere, inside the loop or out, I've noticed.

[JGrave]

I live in Bellaire and work on Allen Parkway. 

9 miles.  It takes me 30 minutes to get home.  There is traffic inside the loop.

[Alkie]

Maybe even El Paso?!!

Trust me.  Won't happen.

We lost 173 on 9/11; I'm amazed that there hasn't been a lawsuit.

Wow.  Hearing that, I can't either.

[austro]

Trust me.  Won't happen.

Wow.  Hearing that, I can't either.

What would be the basis for the suit? That the building was a risk? If an employee feels that the workplace is too risky, said employee can look for a different job. It's not like there was some sort of discrimination involved in placement of the risk: everybody working there was assuming pretty much the same risk.

Should a company that relocates to San Francisco be subject to a suit when the big one hits?

[Limey]

What would be the basis for the suit? That the building was a risk? If an employee feels that the workplace is too risky, said employee can look for a different job. It's not like there was some sort of discrimination involved in placement of the risk: everybody working there was assuming pretty much the same risk.

Should a company that relocates to San Francisco be subject to a suit when the big one hits?

The company moved out of its existing digs on Avenue of the Americas and into the WTC because it saved money.  The reason the WTC was cheaper was because it was now well known to be a giant, two-pronged bullseye for terrorists and many firms moved out for exactly this reason.  I'm not saying that a lawsuit is 100% justified, just that I'm surprised that there hasn't been one.

Re: your San Fran analogy; I would say that I would be similarly surprised that no lawsuit ensued from exactly that scenario.

[T. J.]

Back to the original topic, the county commisioners say "Um...about that Westpark toll increase...never mind."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4907677.html

[WulawHorn]

Only $2.35 right now and raised to $5.50 for driving the entire way- someone made it sound like $10 bucks a pop one way.

I'd pay $5.50 a way to drive on the "lexus lanes" if it meant driving instead of start and stopping.

I understand the anger though- the guy came off sounding like a dickhead.

[Limey]

Back to the original topic, the county commisioners say "Um...about that Westpark toll increase...never mind."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4907677.html

It'll still happen, just for fewer hours...for now.  On the new I-10 toll lanes, congestion pricing is part of the planning.

[Limey]

Only $2.35 right now and raised to $5.50 for driving the entire way- someone made it sound like $10 bucks a pop one way.

I'd pay $5.50 a way to drive on the "lexus lanes" if it meant driving instead of start and stopping.

I understand the anger though- the guy came off sounding like a dickhead.

The increase, which is a tax on users because it has no basis in the financing of the project, is $2.25 a trip.

$2.25 x 2 trips x 5 days x 50 weeks = $1,375 a year.  Gross that up for income/payroll taxes, and it's around $2,000 a year, depending on your tax bracket.  That's a two grand fine for those people who have the temerity to use the road that the city built for them to use.

[MikeyBoy]

Only $2.35 right now and raised to $5.50 for driving the entire way- someone made it sound like $10 bucks a pop one way.

I'd pay $5.50 a way to drive on the "lexus lanes" if it meant driving instead of start and stopping.

I understand the anger though- the guy came off sounding like a dickhead.

Well, it's pretty easy to go back and read that it was me that said it was going to be that much. And the math used in this article doesn't add up, it says the toll will increase from $1 to $2.50 at each station, yet says the total is currently $2.35, $5.50 with the increase? I have never paid that close attention to how many toll spots there are along the entire tollway, but I have always had a figure of $3.50 in my head and I know the spot closest to my house (I live right where the thing ends) is $.50. I believe there are three others that are a dollar charge at each one. I will have to pay closer attention next time I take it.

[Limey]

Well, it's pretty easy to go back and read that it was me that said it was going to be that much. And the math used in this article doesn't add up, it says the toll will increase from $1 to $2.50 at each station, yet says the total is currently $2.35, $5.50 with the increase? I have never paid that close attention to how many toll spots there are along the entire tollway, but I have always had a figure of $3.50 in my head and I know the spot closest to my house (I live right where the thing ends) is $.50. I believe there are three others that are a dollar charge at each one. I will have to pay closer attention next time I take it.

Fort Bend County doesn't have standardised $1 tolls for each section; it's also not premium pricing rush hour.  hence it's not a straight doubling and not a round number.  Fucking hicks.

[strosrays]

I love NY.  Walk 3 blocks, take the stairs into a hole in the ground, get on the subway, eventually you could be in New Jersey.  If that's what you want.  If you drive a car every day to and from work and you have another alternative, or can't figure out another alternative, you are quite literally (and not that bullshit definition of literally) slowly strangling children. 

When I was there, I had middle-aged neighbors who had lived in Manhattan all their lives, and had never owned an automobile.  I could barely comprehend it.  If they wanted to go to Connecticut or upstate or somewhere for the weekend, they rented a car.

Anyway, I sat down one night and figured up how much a year it cost me to own and maintain my modest vehicle back in TX, and I was stunned.  The amount was far higher than the vague figure I had been carrying around in my head.  Back then (1980), I probably would've spent any surplus I got on beer, but I would guess the savings would have easily covered mass transit expenses, and then some.

Getting drunk and riding on the subway was problematical, though, at least for a non-native.  It was a good idea to keep one's wits about one, at least a little bit.  I'll never forget the night we took the train up to S. Bronx to see a Yankees-Orioles game (to a stop right outside Yankee Stadium.)  Afterward, I noticed one guy who was obviously from out of town stagger onto the train (this was during the Democratic Convention, and the place was overrun with obnoxious drunks.)  And then stagger off, all alone, at 145th St., something like that.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't his stop.  I remember watching him going across the platform to the stairs as the train pulled out.  I'll bet he had an interesting evening in front of him.

[austro]

Well, it's pretty easy to go back and read that it was me that said it was going to be that much. And the math used in this article doesn't add up, it says the toll will increase from $1 to $2.50 at each station, yet says the total is currently $2.35, $5.50 with the increase? I have never paid that close attention to how many toll spots there are along the entire tollway, but I have always had a figure of $3.50 in my head and I know the spot closest to my house (I live right where the thing ends) is $.50. I believe there are three others that are a dollar charge at each one. I will have to pay closer attention next time I take it.

No need to take the bullet all alone: I implied a figure like that, too. Like you, I'll have to pay much closer attention next time (or just go read my last TxTag bill). But I'm pretty sure that I go through five toll stations on the trip from Grand Parkway to Kirby.

[MikeyBoy]

No need to take the bullet all alone: I implied a figure like that, too. Like you, I'll have to pay much closer attention next time (or just go read my last TxTag bill). But I'm pretty sure that I go through five toll stations on the trip from Grand Parkway to Kirby.

I went to google for answers and (as Limey pointed out) the toll increase was just for Harris county and a portion the Westpark runs through Fort Bend County as well. The fees from the Fort Bend section were not included in the article.

[Arky Vaughan]

Wait:  downtown is not choked, but would be choked if there were less cars and more buses.  M'kay.

You're the one arguing that one reason the HOV system doesn't work is that it brings lots of buses into the city, choking the traffic there. My point is that even with rail, by your own admission, there's going to be buses downtown. So rail doesn't really solve your stated objection to HOV lanes bringing more buses into downtown.

[Limey]

I went to google for answers and (as Limey pointed out) the toll increase was just for Harris county and a portion the Westpark runs through Fort Bend County as well. The fees from the Fort Bend section were not included in the article.

It's currently $2.25 to ride the Harris County section of the Westpark (see here).  The Fort Bend County section has two toll "booths" of 50c each (see here).  To come in from Peak Road (as a colleague of mine does) costs $3.25 each way currently, $6.50 if the rates go up in Harris County.

[Arky Vaughan]

They do not have this problem in Scandinavia because they built their system to handle their weather.  DC's fuck-up in the regard is not an indictment of mass transit as a whole.

Never said it did. But it doesn't make trudging blocks in the snow/rain/heat any more fun.

[Arky Vaughan]

So you think the city will be happy to lose revenue to other places?  What if companies moves, not to the Woodlands, but to Oklahoma, or Nebraska, or India?  Maybe even El Paso?!!  The city will be forced to do whatever it takes to maintain and encourage business within its borders.

The city goes out a long way. There are lots of areas within the Houston city limits where businesses can relocate closer to where their employees can live cheaply.

[Arky Vaughan]

you're insane.  59 inside the loop, both inbound and outbound, to at least the spur sucks donkeyballs during morning and evening rush hour(s).

Do you think rail will eliminate that?

[Limey]

You're the one arguing that one reason the HOV system doesn't work is that it brings lots of buses into the city, choking the traffic there. My point is that even with rail, by your own admission, there's going to be buses downtown. So rail doesn't really solve your stated objection to HOV lanes bringing more buses into downtown.

Downtown isn't the only city destination.  My original contention was about linking the business centers of downtown, the galleria and westchase to the outlying populations centers and each other.  The galleria is permanently fucked by workers driving into and out of the area, and around it for lunch.

[MikeyBoy]

It's currently $2.25 to ride the Harris County section of the Westpark (see here).  The Fort Bend County section has two toll "booths" of 50c each (see here).  To come in from Peak Road (as a colleague of mine does) costs $3.25 each way currently, $6.50 if the rates go up in Harris County.

Thanks for the pick up.

[Arky Vaughan]

Mrs Limey and I have a firm intention of moving inside the Loop; the Heights specifically.  However, every time we blink, my house value drops because we're on 290 which is now the worst freeway in Houston, and the Heights skyrockets.

You are correct that the inner Loop traffic is mostly fine.  I used to work near downtown and once I hit I-10 inside the Loop, it was an absolute breeze.  This is because the vast majority of those who work in the city are jammed up for days trying to get past Hwy 6, the Beltway and the Loop itself.

Taking the bus from the Beltway into downtown on I-10 in the current, construction-riddled, single HOV lane takes about 15 minutes. It's about 25 minutes from Highway 6.

[Limey]

The city goes out a long way. There are lots of areas within the Houston city limits where businesses can relocate closer to where their employees can live cheaply.

So your solution is to lay on more long distance buses with no local distribution; and businesses and people that don't like it can move.  Genius city planning.  I can't imagine why anyone even bothered to invent a train.

[tophfar]

Never said it did. But it doesn't make trudging blocks in the snow/rain/heat any more fun.

yes, weather sure can suck sometimes here on planet earth.  i hear on the moon you do not have to worry about such things.

[Limey]

Taking the bus from the Beltway into downtown on I-10 in the current, construction-riddled, single HOV lane takes about 15 minutes. It's about 25 minutes from Highway 6.

Today.  And it won't be hurt when the supersized version of i-10 opens either.  But the city will keep on growing while that road will not.  You aren't listening at all.

[Limey]

Never said it did. But it doesn't make trudging blocks in the snow/rain/heat any more fun.

...because sitting in traffic jams - every fucking day - is a barrel of laffs.

[Arky Vaughan]

Downtown isn't the only city destination.  My original contention was about linking the business centers of downtown, the galleria and westchase to the outlying populations centers and each other.  The galleria is permanently fucked by workers driving into and out of the area, and around it for lunch.

So would you add a local rail in the Galleria? Where? Post Oak? Westheimer? Alabama? San Felipe? Richmond?

How much would that cost? How much traffic would it create for the people still in their cars?

[Arky Vaughan]

So your solution is to lay on more long distance buses with no local distribution; and businesses and people that don't like it can move.  Genius city planning.  I can't imagine why anyone even bothered to invent a train.

If people want to work in the energy corridor, they can buy houses near the energy corridor. Cheaply. Or they can buy them elsewhere and sit in traffic.

Genius city planning is putting a train in Portland that doesn't meet nearly the ridership numbers bandied about when it was approved and seems to be mostly focused on giving tourists a nice, uncrowded way to get around.

[Arky Vaughan]

When I was there, I had middle-aged neighbors who had lived in Manhattan all their lives, and had never owned an automobile.  I could barely comprehend it.  If they wanted to go to Connecticut or upstate or somewhere for the weekend, they rented a car.

Anyway, I sat down one night and figured up how much a year it cost me to own and maintain my modest vehicle back in TX, and I was stunned.  The amount was far higher than the vague figure I had been carrying around in my head.  Back then (1980), I probably would've spent any surplus I got on beer, but I would guess the savings would have easily covered mass transit expenses, and then some.

Getting drunk and riding on the subway was problematical, though, at least for a non-native.  It was a good idea to keep one's wits about one, at least a little bit.  I'll never forget the night we took the train up to S. Bronx to see a Yankees-Orioles game (to a stop right outside Yankee Stadium.)  Afterward, I noticed one guy who was obviously from out of town stagger onto the train (this was during the Democratic Convention, and the place was overrun with obnoxious drunks.)  And then stagger off, all alone, at 145th St., something like that.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't his stop.  I remember watching him going across the platform to the stairs as the train pulled out.  I'll bet he had an interesting evening in front of him.

Did you figure in how much it costs to live in Manhattan?

[Limey]

So would you add a local rail in the Galleria? Where? Post Oak? Westheimer? Alabama? San Felipe? Richmond?

How much would that cost? How much traffic would it create for the people still in their cars?

Now you're just being obtuse.  For local distribution, I talked about using buses.  There's already a bus service that runs people up and down Post Oak to relieve traffic and parking congestion.  You expand this idea, and separate the buses from cars on the wide streets by putting in bus lanes - just like they have now downtown.

[Arky Vaughan]

yes, weather sure can suck sometimes here on planet earth.  i hear on the moon you do not have to worry about such things.

They don't have rail on the moon yet, so I'm not going.

[Arky Vaughan]

...because sitting in traffic jams - every fucking day - is a barrel of laffs.

I've done both, and I can tell you which one I prefer.

[Limey]

If people want to work in the energy corridor, they can buy houses near the energy corridor. Cheaply. Or they can buy them elsewhere and sit in traffic.

Genius city planning is putting a train in Portland that doesn't meet nearly the ridership numbers bandied about when it was approved and seems to be mostly focused on giving tourists a nice, uncrowded way to get around.

Once again, Portland's fuck up is not an indictment of mass transit in general.  But at least we agree, your plan is to make everyone move.

BTW, yesterday I got a speeding ticket on 290.  I guess, but your way of thinking, that means there's no congestion problem on that freeway because it was open enough for me to be able to get up to 80.

[Arky Vaughan]

Today.  And it won't be hurt when the supersized version of i-10 opens either.  But the city will keep on growing while that road will not.  You aren't listening at all.

I'm listening just fine. I've read everything you've said. I'm asking you: when will the city approach the point where the HOV lanes will be clogged to immobility? Because the current I-10 I'm dealing with was built almost 25 years ago, and even in the midst of a major construction project, a bus from the Beltway to downtown can get there in the HOV lane in 15 minutes.

[Arky Vaughan]

Now you're just being obtuse.  For local distribution, I talked about using buses.  There's already a bus service that runs people up and down Post Oak to relieve traffic and parking congestion.  You expand this idea, and separate the buses from cars on the wide streets by putting in bus lanes - just like they have now downtown.

Then why do we need rail when we can just use buses?

[Limey]

I've done both, and I can tell you which one I prefer.

NOW!!!!!!!!!!

Double the time, add punitive toll charges, increase the cost of gas, restrict days or times of day that you can enter the "congestion zones" and see how you like it then.  Oh wait, I forgot, you'll just move.

[Limey]

Then why do we need rail when we can just use buses?

Debate or don't debate.  Being silly like this is pointless.  I've answered this question half a dozen times now.  I won't answer it again.

[BizidyDizidy]

Then why do we need rail when we can just use buses?

He's just talking in circles as far as why buses won't work. Must be one of those guys with a train set in the basement.

Don't bother me while I'm conducting!!

[Limey]

I'm listening just fine. I've read everything you've said. I'm asking you: when will the city approach the point where the HOV lanes will be clogged to immobility? Because the current I-10 I'm dealing with was built almost 25 years ago, and even in the midst of a major construction project, a bus from the Beltway to downtown can get there in the HOV lane in 15 minutes.

You're right.  Everything is fine today.  There's no need to think about what will happen when - what has been happening in this city for 80 years - continues to happen.  In 25 years it'll be a piece of cake to re-double the size of I-10.

[Arky Vaughan]

Debate or don't debate.  Being silly like this is pointless.  I've answered this question half a dozen times now.  I won't answer it again.

You haven't answered it. You've talked in circles.

Please reconcile:

"Because at the end of those HOV lanes, all those buses and cars are disgorged onto the already choked city streets."

"For local distribution, I talked about using buses.  There's already a bus service that runs people up and down Post Oak to relieve traffic and parking congestion."

How is it that buses from the HOV lanes choke the city, but local distribution buses don't? We're both talking about having buses in the local areas to move people around. The difference is that you want trains to take people to the buses, I think the buses can get there just fine on their own via the HOV lanes.

And you still have not made a persuasive argument that the HOV lanes might be OK now but won't be at some indeterminant point in the future. Just saying it doesn't make it so. As I pointed out, the HOV lanes on the Katy Freeway from 25 years ago are still functioning fine. It's the mainlanes that are clogged.

So if a single HOV lane can still do the job 25 years later, how long does that mean it will take for two HOV lanes each way to become immobilized? Another 25 years? 50 years? 10 years? 5 years?

The incentives for riding a bus in an HOV lane and riding a train along the freeway routes are the same. Getting out of the congested mainlanes and getting to a place, like downtown, where local service will take you where you want to go. Can you begin to demonstrate how rail is cost-justified over the existing system given that you have no answer to the question of how long it would take for the HOV system to break down?

[Limey]

He's just talking in circles as far as why buses won't work. Must be one of those guys with a train set in the basement.

Don't bother me while I'm conducting!!

You're right.  Every other city that has a mass transit system that uses rail to bring people in from the outer regions, has wasted their money.  Buses are just so much quicker, easier, cleaner and cheaper, and best of all don't require people to actual think about stuff.

[Arky Vaughan]

NOW!!!!!!!!!!

Double the time, add punitive toll charges, increase the cost of gas, restrict days or times of day that you can enter the "congestion zones" and see how you like it then.  Oh wait, I forgot, you'll just move.

How much do you think it costs to live along or near a Metro line in the D.C. area vs. in the suburbs in Houston?

[Arky Vaughan]

You're right.  Every other city that has a mass transit system that uses rail to bring people in from the outer regions, has wasted their money.  Buses are just so much quicker, easier, cleaner and cheaper, and best of all don't require people to actual think about stuff.

Which low-density cities in the United States have successfully used rail to reduce their freeway congestion?

[Arky Vaughan]

Once again, Portland's fuck up is not an indictment of mass transit in general.  But at least we agree, your plan is to make everyone move.

My plan isn't to make anyone do anything. Businesses can choose to locate in the center of the city, subsidizing bus transportation or parking for their employees. They can relocate to the less-dense parts of the city, where people can get in easier. It's a balance of choices that both businesses and their employees take. But it's not a necessity, as you imply, that businesses are all downtown, people are all in the suburbs, and everybody needs a train to get inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon.

[Limey]

Please reconcile:

"Because at the end of those HOV lanes, all those buses and cars are disgorged onto the already choked city streets."

"For local distribution, I talked about using buses.  There's already a bus service that runs people up and down Post Oak to relieve traffic and parking congestion."

I see no issue.  You are looking at the situation today, and saying that there's no need to do anything different because, today, it works.

How is it that buses from the HOV lanes choke the city, but local distribution buses don't? We're both talking about having buses in the local areas to move people around. The difference is that you want trains to take people to the buses, I think the buses can get there just fine on their own via the HOV lanes.

Buses and cars.  But, of course, there's not going to be any increase in traffic volumes, ever again.

And you still have not made a persuasive argument that the HOV lanes might be OK now but won't be at some indeterminant point in the future. Just saying it doesn't make it so. As I pointed out, the HOV lanes on the Katy Freeway from 25 years ago are still functioning fine. It's the mainlanes that are clogged.

So if a single HOV lane can still do the job 25 years later, how long does that mean it will take for two HOV lanes each way to become immobilized? Another 25 years? 50 years? 10 years? 5 years?

“640K ought to be enough for anybody.” -Bill Gates (1981)

The incentives for riding a bus in an HOV lane and riding a train along the freeway routes are the same. Getting out of the congested mainlanes and getting to a place, like downtown, where local service will take you where you want to go. Can you begin to demonstrate how rail is cost-justified over the existing system given that you have no answer to the question of how long it would take for the HOV system to break down?

Prove to me that the HOV system and expanding freeways is going to both adequate and cost effective forever.

[Foghorn]

I don't understand why John Q Taxpayer has to subsidize someone else's hatred of sitting in traffic.  YOU don't like traffic, either move closer to work or work closer to home.  Or carpool, or vanpool.  But don't make me pay more tax dollars because you're being a big pussy.

[Limey]

How much do you think it costs to live along or near a Metro line in the D.C. area vs. in the suburbs in Houston?

I don't give a fuck.  I'm bored with arguing with your straw men.

[Limey]

I don't understand why John Q Taxpayer has to subsidize someone else's hatred of sitting in traffic.  YOU don't like traffic, either move closer to work or work closer to home.  Or carpool, or vanpool.  But don't make me pay more tax dollars because you're being a big pussy.

I am choosing to move closer to work.  But I am not assuming that the current state of affairs will remain unchanged in the future.

ETA:  John Q. Taxpayer is being committed to paying for ever increasing road construction costs, as well as suffering ever longer commutes and wasting ever larger amounts of ever more costly gasoline.

[Foghorn]

I am choosing to move closer to work.  But I am not assuming that the current state of affairs will remain unchanged in the future.

ETA:  John Q. Taxpayer is being committed to paying for ever increasing road construction costs, as well as suffering ever longer commutes and wasting ever larger amounts of ever more costly gasoline.

I hear you but my concern with dumping tons of money into public transit is that at the end of the day the public transit doesn't do much of anything.  For instance, I doubt I'll ever ride on the Light Rail.  I've helped pay for it, but I ain't ever gonna use it.  And there's a lot of people like me who live, work, play in the suburbs.  I don't care 290 is a clusterfuck.   I don't care if 59 is a madhouse.  And becuase I don't care I don't want to pay for anything to remedy that problem.

[tophfar]

I hear you but my concern with dumping tons of money into public transit is that at the end of the day the public transit doesn't do much of anything.  For instance, I doubt I'll ever ride on the Light Rail.  I've helped pay for it, but I ain't ever gonna use it.  And there's a lot of people like me who live, work, play in the suburbs.  I don't care 290 is a clusterfuck.   I don't care if 59 is a madhouse.  And becuase I don't care I don't want to pay for anything to remedy that problem.

and so situations like westpark will happen over and over again. built to relieve congestion, is forced to having drivers removed from it BECAUSE of congestion, back onto the roads they were supposed to be getting off of to relieve congestion in the first place.

and everyone will continue thinking everything is just "fine".

[Limey]

I hear you but my concern with dumping tons of money into public transit is that at the end of the day the public transit doesn't do much of anything.  For instance, I doubt I'll ever ride on the Light Rail.  I've helped pay for it, but I ain't ever gonna use it.  And there's a lot of people like me who live, work, play in the suburbs.  I don't care 290 is a clusterfuck.   I don't care if 59 is a madhouse.  And becuase I don't care I don't want to pay for anything to remedy that problem.

You're also paying for the construction, lighting and upkeep of all those roads in Houston that you'll never use, to educate other people's kids and for the emergency treatment given to people who don't have insurance.

[Arky Vaughan]

I see no issue.  You are looking at the situation today, and saying that there's no need to do anything different because, today, it works.

Incorrect. I'm looking at the HOV lanes today, which were built 25 years ago, seeing that they're still working, seeing that they're being expanded. That would imply looking at a horizon further out than just today.

But, of course, there's not going to be any increase in traffic volumes, ever again.

Incorrect. There will be increases, but the rate of increase does not appear to be as quick as you assert.

“640K ought to be enough for anybody.” -Bill Gates (1981)

Are you implying that traffic on Houston freeways is growing as quickly as the speed of microprocessors?

Prove to me that the HOV system and expanding freeways is going to both adequate and cost effective forever.

You're the one calling for replacing the existing system with billions of dollars of upgrades. That makes it incumbent on you to explain why the current, 25-year-old, soon-to-be-expanded system can cost-effectively be replaced by rail.

[Arky Vaughan]

and everyone will continue thinking everything is just "fine".

Questioning the need for a multibillion-dollar massively disruptive rail plan is not the equivalent of thinking everything is just "fine."

[Arky Vaughan]

You're also paying for the construction, lighting and upkeep of all those roads in Houston that you'll never use, to educate other people's kids and for the emergency treatment given to people who don't have insurance.

Yes, everyone pays either way. But it's not wrong to question why the most cost-effective solution isn't adopted, or whether a cost-benefit analysis justifies a particular expenditure.

[Arky Vaughan]

I am choosing to move closer to work.  But I am not assuming that the current state of affairs will remain unchanged in the future.

ETA:  John Q. Taxpayer is being committed to paying for ever increasing road construction costs, as well as suffering ever longer commutes and wasting ever larger amounts of ever more costly gasoline.

Isn't road construction largely financed through taxes that people pay on the gasoline they consume?

[Limey]

You're the one calling for replacing the existing system with billions of dollars of upgrades. That makes it incumbent on you to explain why the current, 25-year-old, soon-to-be-expanded system can cost-effectively be replaced by rail.

Yes.  I'm saying that every freeway needs to be demolished and a gazillion miles of fresh, shiny rail be run everywhere, including through your living room.

[Arky Vaughan]

Yes.  I'm saying that every freeway needs to be demolished and a gazillion miles of fresh, shiny rail be run everywhere, including through your living room.

This would be very convenient for me, as long as it runs through my office too.

I'm willing to leave it at this, Limey. I enjoyed the discussion, and I sense that we're probably not changing each other's minds anytime soon.

[Limey]

This would be very convenient for me, as long as it runs through my office too.

I'm willing to leave it at this, Limey. I enjoyed the discussion, and I sense that we're probably not changing each other's minds anytime soon.

Ditto.  I just hope that the debate has enlightened some people as to a couple of things.  The first is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."  Haven't figured out the second yet.

[MikeyBoy]

Ditto.  I just hope that the debate has enlightened some people as to a couple of things.  The first is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."  Haven't figured out the second yet.

never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line?

[Randy Watson]

you're insane.  59 inside the loop, both inbound and outbound, to at least the spur sucks donkeyballs during morning and evening rush hour(s).

It backs up a little bit where I might have to slow down some, but it moves and I still get to work in 15-20 minutes.

Bellaire is different.  It would take 15 minutes to get from my house to Bellaire.  But especially north of 59 and inside the loop, it is really easy to get downtown.

[Limey]

Classic!

The court that, Tuesday, unanimously voted to impose the congestion tax, has now done a complete one-eighty and will not be doing so.  Apparently, people are upset and it's just dawned on them that the people they intended to price off the tollway have no place else to go.

[BudGirl]

you're insane.  59 inside the loop, both inbound and outbound, to at least the spur sucks donkeyballs during morning and evening rush hour(s).

I respectfully disagree about the morning rush hour.  I get on 59 by Westheimer and exit for 45 South.  I can get to work in 15 minutes.  The traffic in the evening isn't even as bad as I originally thought it was going to be.  If the exit for 610 North backs up, I exit Newcastle and get home through the residential area.

[Limey]

I respectfully disagree about the morning rush hour.  I get on 59 by Westheimer and exit for 45 South.  I can get to work in 15 minutes.  The traffic in the evening isn't even as bad as I originally thought it was going to be.  If the exit for 610 North backs up, I exit Newcastle and get home through the residential area.

It's always all about you, isn't it.

[BudGirl]

It's always all about you, isn't it.

Yes, it is.

[austro]

I get on 59 by Westheimer ...

I'm confused. Where is this?

[BudGirl]

I'm confused. Where is this?

Westheimer and 610. 

[Frobie]

Classic!

From the linked article: 

Some Westpark Tollway drivers had said they would stop using the road when peak-hour pricing went into effect from 6-9 a.m. for inbound traffic and 4-7 p.m. for outbound traffic.

That was the point, wasn't it?

[JGrave]

New solution:

Flying cars.

[MusicMan]

``The truth of the matter is, we and the consultants hadn't factored in the construction on the other highways,'' Emmett said. ``You can't have congestion pricing if you don't have a place for people to go to avoid congestion.''

The word you're looking for is, "Duh."

[austro]

Westheimer and 610. 

Thanks. I was trying to figure out how you were getting on 59 from the east end of Westheimer.

[austro]

New solution:

Flying cars.

Feed the mayonnaise to the tuna.

[Limey]

From the linked article: 
That was the point, wasn't it?

Bingo!

[homer]

Classic!

The court that, Tuesday, unanimously voted to impose the congestion tax, has now done a complete one-eighty and will not be doing so.  Apparently, people are upset and it's just dawned on them that the people they intended to price off the tollway have no place else to go.

Cabrera hopped on the toll road about 3 pages ago:

Courtesy T.J.