Author Topic: The AE Fallacy  (Read 40809 times)

Noe

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The AE Fallacy
« on: June 19, 2007, 12:43:37 pm »
Ladies and Germs,

I am here to present to you my observations on the trending amongst our so-called peers to indulge themselves in, what I call, The AE Fallacy.  First and foremost, I cannot prove nor disprove the AE Fallacy is factually incorrect by statistics nor is that my intent here.  This is a dialogue, a conversation if you will, a beginning of a idea that may turn out to be theoritical or just banter amongst friends.  But it is important enough to speak about it now instead of later when The AE Fallacy takes full bloom amongst us all and we are overrun by those who become disciples of this new phenomenum.

What is The AE Fallacy?

It is important to lay the groundwork for this discussion correctly in order to understand one another and not stray too far into things like The Biggio Myth or The Berkman Complex.  Those are discussions for another time, maybe even another place, but as our profound thinker and mentor Joaquin Andujar once said "juneberno".  So The AE Fallacy is as follows:

With Adam Everett in the lineup, the Houston Astros have a weak hitting team.  Remove him from the lineup and the Astros have a very good hitting team, will score more runs.  Furthermore, what Adam Everett brings to the team in terms of defense is severely overrun (or offset) by his offensive misgivings.  So the reverse effect is that you can afford less defense for more offense.


There are, of course, some variations of this particular fallacy, but by and large this is The AE Fallacy in it's context and one that will be tested for the next eight weeks or so.

What are the strengths and weaknesses in the thinking found in The AE Fallacy?


The strengths in this fallacy is of course more offense, however if I may be allowed to qualify the strength, that is contextual strength in nature.  Again, I cannot prove or disprove this discussion point, I merely offer it as my own observation and leave it at that.  The strength's context is more offense in terms of meta-baseball (or fantacrap as it's been called) and feeds into a perception of winning baseball.  I don't necessarily subscribe to more offense equals winning games per se.  So as long as we are clear that more offense is an output and it is the very strength of The AE Fallacy but we cannot or should not take this strength to mean that more games are won.  In days past, more offense means more wins was the staple behind such prized teams as the mid 90s Texas Rangers who actually still practice a form of this methodology to date.  So let's just leave the qualification intact and move on.  We agree that without Adam Everett in the lineup, you will get more offense.

The weakness is of course less defense, especially in a highly regarded position as shortstop.  But the most glaring weakness about The AE Fallacy is the statement that it doesn't matter what you get on defense because the offense will offset it.  Well, if we take what we said in the strength part of our discussion, we can clearly see that more offense doesn't mean more wins.  Does more defense mean more wins then?  Not singularily, no.  Which leads us to the real weakness of The AE Fallacy: offense and defense from a shortstop cannot be measured in singular terms because the position itself requires more of a team oriented, wins-based outcome.  So, such wins be the measurement in the coming 8 weeks as to Adam Everett's contributions or lack thereof to winning baseball?  Again, I think it will be hard to qualify because you have the symbotic relationship that a pitcher has with his defense and some may adjust their game enough to keep winning games regardless of who is at the shortstop position.  It's tougher on the pitcher, but not impossible.  It will be interesting to follow nonetheless and something that may either produce a re-think on the part of the Houston Astros team on the whole or maybe just prove once and for the all the real value of such a magnificient player as Adam Everett. 

By the way, there is some precedent to this.  In 2004, Adam Everett was hit by a stray pitch and had to sit out two months with a broken wrist.  Erstwhile uber utility man Jose Vizcaino sat in for him and the team continued winning.  However, I might add that the 2004 version of the Houston Astros had such players as Carlos Beltran, Lance Berkman, Jeff Kent and Jeff Bagwell in the lineup.  Add in Mike Lamb at third having a spectacular second half and the correlation becomes one that lacks a little to this season's particular situation with Everett.

So what are the principles of the fallacy being whispered to date?

The whispers are now starting in the media and in the fandom that the broken leg for Adam Everett was a good thing because the full effect of The AE Fallacy can now bloom.  It is of course a weak stance to take given nothing has been proven as of yet.  The Adam Everett lineup of the past few months were chock full of Lance Berkman the Lesser struggling to even hit a baseball, much less be an offensive force and also the lack of a legit #5, the injury to the right fielder given an opportunity to play and the dethroning of the everyday centerfielder coupled with the emergence of a rookie hitter who strange as it may sound, is still trying to find himself in many ways.  I'm sure that much will be made if the team scores more runs from now on.  If the team also manages to win more games, again much will be made.  And we will thus be overrun with the fallacy in full effect and quite possibly hard to ignore and really dissect properly.  It will be similar in some ways to the "Chris Burke can hit 30 homeruns in the majors" tidal wave of early season 2005.  It was hard to have honest discussions about it, but still we moved on.  I suspect I for one will have to bite my tongue or turn off most if not all the sports talk shows for the next eight weeks because of The AE Fallacy in premature bloom.

I think I have a yard with landscape needs calling my name any way.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 12:47:53 pm by Noe in Austin »

MusicMan

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 01:24:25 pm »
I would have simply expressed this as:

"The first person to state that the Astros offense has improved as a result of AE's injury gets 'Post hoc ergo propter hoc' tattooed on their face, forcibly."
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WulawHorn

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 02:16:22 pm »
See, the thing is you can win baseball by preventing runs, or by scoring them (duh).

If I'm team building I militate more toward preventing runs as it has two benefits:

1) It's more consistent/less streaky
&
2) It's more efficient.

What I mean by that is this- a team that gives up 200 less runs then league average will win more games, year after year- then a team that scores 200 runs more than league average.

You don't lose any games giving up 0 runs, and almost never lose a game giving up 1 or 2 runs (roger clemens starts not counting- which was hysterical on many levels to see him lose 2-0 to the Mets but I digress).

You do, however, in the course of being a high scoring jugernaught waste a ton of runs if you are a really high scoring team. There is not a ton of advantage to winning a game 10-5 or 10-3 (the small one being that you can pitch your less effective relievers and blow off some mental stress).

If you are going to score 1000 runs like the Yanks might you have a ton of wasted runs.

If you instead build a team that only gives up 550 or 600 runs you've set the bar really low on what you need to do offensively to win (score 3 or 4 runs a game).  Some of these runs will be given up in blow outs, meaning if you plot it you probably have a whole shit load of games where you are giving up 1, 2 or 3 runs, and even the astros with their anemic offense leading up to the breakout this past week won most of those games where they gave up 1, 2 or 3.

But this team is hitting now w/o AE, but it ain't b/c we don't have him in there anymore, it's b/c lamb got ungodly hot, Berkman is hitting the ball w/ authority, bidge broke out of about a month long coma on the last road trip, and Hunter keeps on plugging away (even ausmus is scorching).

It ain't as easy as subbing out Everett.

That said- I saw the astros lineup announced yesterday and thought to myself that there really wasn't a stretch a pitcher could cruise through without worry about. Then they go out and score 9 runs. Then, it wasn't enough. 

Damn, what a crappy way to start the day (I went to bed in the b7th and tivo'd the end of the debacle). I thought fo sho it would be an easy win when I started watching the end of the game.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 02:35:44 pm »
thanks for starting this thread, noe.  i've been fascinated reading everyone's opinion on everett throughout the first half of the season...and while i'm disappointed for him that he's out for the next couple of months with his broken leg, it'll be interesting to see what happens to both our offense and defense.  that is, after we get these pesky AL series out of the way.

ETA: mistakenly made adam french with original post's spelling of his last name...i'm such a rookie
 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 02:39:37 pm by BatGirl »
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 02:38:34 pm »
I thought the AE fallacy was that it was either artistic or entertaining.
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Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2007, 02:43:29 pm »
thanks for starting this thread, noe.  i've been fascinated reading everyone's opinion on everett throughout the first half of the season...and while i'm disappointed for him that he's out for the next couple of months with his broken leg, it'll be interesting to see what happens to both our offense and defense.  that is, after we get these pesky AL series out of the way.

ETA: mistakenly made adam french with original post's spelling of his last name...i'm such a rookie
 

Thanks BatGirl and that is essentially what I am interested in as well... what will be the outcome, in a true sense, for the Houston Astros perhaps in a philosophical shift or perhaps in a strengthening of the philosophy to date when it comes to such a player as Adam Everett.

I don't pretend to know yet, but I am bothered by the noise that crops around this item because it is usually ill-informed and based on faulty assumptions.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2007, 02:49:39 pm »
true dat, noe.  there are so many variables involved here; there are tons of intelligent spirited discussions to be had and shared.  here's to keeping it classy, OWA.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2007, 02:52:13 pm »
Thanks BatGirl and that is essentially what I am interested in as well... what will be the outcome, in a true sense, for the Houston Astros perhaps in a philosophical shift or perhaps in a strengthening of the philosophy to date when it comes to such a player as Adam Everett.

I don't pretend to know yet, but I am bothered by the noise that crops around this item because it is usually ill-informed and based on faulty assumptions.

Fans better get used to it.  I'm already hearing rumblings of Manzella for the future.  A light hitting defensive-gem shortstop at high-A Salem.  Will likely finish the season at Corpus.
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Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 02:53:42 pm »
See, the thing is you can win baseball by preventing runs, or by scoring them (duh).

If I'm team building I militate more toward preventing runs as it has two benefits:

1) It's more consistent/less streaky
&
2) It's more efficient.

What I mean by that is this- a team that gives up 200 less runs then league average will win more games, year after year- then a team that scores 200 runs more than league average.

You don't lose any games giving up 0 runs, and almost never lose a game giving up 1 or 2 runs (roger clemens starts not counting- which was hysterical on many levels to see him lose 2-0 to the Mets but I digress).

You do, however, in the course of being a high scoring jugernaught waste a ton of runs if you are a really high scoring team. There is not a ton of advantage to winning a game 10-5 or 10-3 (the small one being that you can pitch your less effective relievers and blow off some mental stress).

If you are going to score 1000 runs like the Yanks might you have a ton of wasted runs.

If you instead build a team that only gives up 550 or 600 runs you've set the bar really low on what you need to do offensively to win (score 3 or 4 runs a game).  Some of these runs will be given up in blow outs, meaning if you plot it you probably have a whole shit load of games where you are giving up 1, 2 or 3 runs, and even the astros with their anemic offense leading up to the breakout this past week won most of those games where they gave up 1, 2 or 3.

But this team is hitting now w/o AE, but it ain't b/c we don't have him in there anymore, it's b/c lamb got ungodly hot, Berkman is hitting the ball w/ authority, bidge broke out of about a month long coma on the last road trip, and Hunter keeps on plugging away (even ausmus is scorching).

It ain't as easy as subbing out Everett.

That said- I saw the astros lineup announced yesterday and thought to myself that there really wasn't a stretch a pitcher could cruise through without worry about. Then they go out and score 9 runs. Then, it wasn't enough. 

Damn, what a crappy way to start the day (I went to bed in the b7th and tivo'd the end of the debacle). I thought fo sho it would be an easy win when I started watching the end of the game.



Good points and again, I usually don't bother to quantify my observations and thoughts like some of you do so well.  For that, I appreciate your indulgence.  Simplicity of thinking sometimes gets me in trouble, I realize that, but to me the simple choice of upgrade to the offense because that is the trouble spot means you look to the spots in the lineup that are your positions responsible to make it happen.   The #3, the cleanup, the #5 spot primarily but also your leadoff and #2 hitter and then cascade downward.  So the faulty thinking that removal of a bat like AE leads to more offense is predicated, to me, on the other spots working as they should.  The reality is that the other spots have not been working as they should, so wouldn't the answer to a lack of offense be looked at primarily with those strategic lineup spots in mind first and foremost?  And that being said, why penalize the pitchers who depend on strategic defensive support in doing so?   You basically pay one way or another in whatever way you choose to strategically build your team of course.

A broken leg is not a strategy, it is an unfortunate accident that leads one to make shifts as well as can be expected and then it's all hands on-board to help make it work.  Meaning, if I were a pitcher, I'd bear down as much as humanly possible because it is going to be harder now to keep the other teams from getting seeing eye hits up the middle and create more traffic per inning.  Pitchers may have to just adjust a little more, bear down a little more and quit thinking that AE is back there to help... because he's not.  The team may score more and that may be because the strategic spots in the lineup mentioned above are coming around (and not so much that AE is out of the lineup and no longer a hinderance to scoring runs for the team), but the one thing that is a for sure thing to me is that they will also give up more runs unless the pitchers do more to help out.

If Roy Oswalt thought he had to be perfect when they were struggling on offense, wait until he has to get used to his lesser defense behind him now.  He'll have the same impression as before... he'll need to be better than just "pitching to contact" because as mihoba rightly pointed out, there are huge defensive holes on this squad now and it starts with the shortstop position.

Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 02:56:55 pm »
Fans better get used to it.  I'm already hearing rumblings of Manzella for the future.  A light hitting defensive-gem shortstop at high-A Salem.  Will likely finish the season at Corpus.

Manzella is cut out of the same mold as AE and if the Houston Astros take the next 8 weeks and allow their philosophy to change in terms of the sure handed shortstop position, there will be implication for guys like Manzella.  And also some of the sinkerball pitchers they're developing as well, like Matt Albers.  With the proper up the middle defense in the infield, a guy who is a sinkerballer is valuable.  Without the proper up the middle defense, the guy who is a sinkerballer becomes the next Jay Powell.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 03:13:26 pm »
Manzella is cut out of the same mold as AE and if the Houston Astros take the next 8 weeks and allow their philosophy to change in terms of the sure handed shortstop position, there will be implication for guys like Manzella.  And also some of the sinkerball pitchers they're developing as well, like Matt Albers.  With the proper up the middle defense in the infield, a guy who is a sinkerballer is valuable.  Without the proper up the middle defense, the guy who is a sinkerballer becomes the next Jay Powell.

There isn't going to be a philosophy change, IMO.  There will be a change in personnel though.  Next year's lineup will look something like this:
1.Burke
2.Pence
3.Berkman
4.Lee
5.New 3B
6.New RF (probably picked up this year as I believe Scott is a goner by Aug 1. Could be a new CF moving Pence to right.)
7.New C (better hitter than Ausmus)
8.Everett

The presumption that the other 7 spots in the order will hit enough to not worry about the ss production at the plate isn't going to change, IMO.
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MusicMan

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2007, 03:24:38 pm »
There isn't going to be a philosophy change, IMO.  There will be a change in personnel though.  Next year's lineup will look something like this:
1.Burke
2.Pence
3.Berkman
4.Lee
5.New 3B
6.New RF (probably picked up this year as I believe Scott is a goner by Aug 1. Could be a new CF moving Pence to right.)
7.New C (better hitter than Ausmus)
8.Everett

The presumption that the other 7 spots in the order will hit enough to not worry about the ss production at the plate isn't going to change, IMO.

OK, this is slightly radical.  But if they tank this year - I'm talking a 2000 result - and Biggio and Ausmus retire, I could see the 2008 OD Lineup as:

2b Burke
CF Pence
RF Berkman
3b Rodriguez
LF Lee
1b Lamb
C  Gimenez/Munson
SS Everett
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2007, 03:29:36 pm »
OK, this is slightly radical.  But if they tank this year - I'm talking a 2000 result - and Biggio and Ausmus retire, I could see the 2008 OD Lineup as:

2b Burke
CF Pence
RF Berkman
3b Rodriguez
LF Lee
1b Lamb
C  Gimenez/Munson
SS Everett

If that kind of cash is gonna be ponied up, I want Ichiro in CF.
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WulawHorn

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2007, 03:31:42 pm »
If that kind of cash is gonna be ponied up, I want Ichiro in CF.

The idea of Lee- Ichiro- pence in the OF makes me want to wet my pants with excitement.

Ichiro and pence are fast enough that Lee's ineptitude in the field is irrellevant. 


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2007, 03:32:54 pm »
Scott can play. trade him for someone good or not at all.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2007, 03:33:37 pm »
If that kind of cash is gonna be ponied up, I want Ichiro in CF.

Coming off the books:

Biggio - $5.15M
Ausmus - $4M
Ensberg - $4.35M
Lane - $1.05M
Palmeiro - $0.95M
edit:Bagwell - $7M

That's $22.5M right there.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 03:35:15 pm by MusicMan »
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2007, 03:35:51 pm »
Scott can play. trade him for someone good or not at all.

Agreed.

Of the four positons that aren't set for multiple years after this one (RF, 2b, 3b and Catcher) RF is the last place I'd look to upgrade.

I wouldn't mind seeing upgraded, but it's last priority imo

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2007, 03:36:12 pm »
The idea of Lee- Ichiro- pence in the OF makes me want to wet my pants with excitement.


This is amusing. You should seek help.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2007, 03:38:51 pm »
The idea of Lee- Ichiro- pence in the OF makes me want to wet my pants with excitement.

Ichiro and pence are fast enough that Lee's ineptitude in the field is irrellevant. 

Pence in RF makes me want to scream. he will launch a throw toward 3rd that hits the LF wall.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 03:39:14 pm »
Coming off the books:

Biggio - $5.15M
Ausmus - $4M
Ensberg - $4.35M
Lane - $1.05M
Palmeiro - $0.95M
edit:Bagwell - $7M

That's $22.5M right there.

Jennings or someone else gets a raise from 5.5m.
reverT is probably gone too - 1.3m.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 03:40:37 pm »
Pence in RF makes me want to scream. he will launch a throw toward 3rd that hits the LF wall.

So that leaves him in CF, because he will start somewhere, and LF is Lee's for the next half-century.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 03:41:53 pm »
OK, this is slightly radical.  But if they tank this year - I'm talking a 2000 result - and Biggio and Ausmus retire, I could see the 2008 OD Lineup as:

2b Burke
CF Pence
RF Berkman
3b Rodriguez
LF Lee
1b Lamb
C  Gimenez/Munson
SS Everett

I didn't throw that lineup out there to emphasize the speculative nature of the changes.  But to emphasize the Astros aren't changing their philosophy at short.

But, to the changes at c, rf, and 3b.  Ausmus contract is up.  From NYCU "I do think we've got some guys, especially on the offensive side, that they need to start stepping it up from a career point of view, let alone from a season point of view."  I interpret that to mean Ensberg, Scott, and to a lesser extent Lane.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 03:43:13 pm »
The strengths in this fallacy is of course more offense, however if I may be allowed to qualify the strength, that is contextual strength in nature.  Again, I cannot prove or disprove this discussion point, I merely offer it as my own observation and leave it at that.  The strength's context is more offense in terms of meta-baseball (or fantacrap as it's been called) and feeds into a perception of winning baseball.  I don't necessarily subscribe to more offense equals winning games per se.  So as long as we are clear that more offense is an output and it is the very strength of The AE Fallacy but we cannot or should not take this strength to mean that more games are won.  In days past, more offense means more wins was the staple behind such prized teams as the mid 90s Texas Rangers who actually still practice a form of this methodology to date.  So let's just leave the qualification intact and move on.  We agree that without Adam Everett in the lineup, you will get more offense.

Just to clarify, do you agree or disagree: if two teams have equivalent defenses (for the sake of illustration, they both allow 4 runs per game), that the team with the more prolific offense (one scores 4 runs per game, the other scores 5 runs per game) will likely win more games?

Similarly, do you agree or disagree: if two teams have equivalent offenses (they both score 5 runs per game), that the team with the stingier defense (one allows 5 runs per game, the other allows 4 runs per game) will likely win more games?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 03:45:45 pm »
Just to clarify, do you agree or disagree: if two teams have equivalent defenses (for the sake of illustration, they both allow 4 runs per game), that the team with the more prolific offense (one scores 4 runs per game, the other scores 5 runs per game) will likely win more games?

The team with better pitching wins more games.

Quote
Similarly, do you agree or disagree: if two teams have equivalent offenses (they both score 5 runs per game), that the team with the stingier defense (one allows 5 runs per game, the other allows 4 runs per game) will likely win more games?

The team with the better pitching wins more games.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 03:46:01 pm »
Coming off the books:

Biggio - $5.15M
Ausmus - $4M
Ensberg - $4.35M
Lane - $1.05M
Palmeiro - $0.95M
edit:Bagwell - $7M

That's $22.5M right there.

Based on what reasoning of Purpura would Ensberg no longer be on the team?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2007, 03:47:36 pm »
Based on what reasoning of Purpura would Ensberg no longer be on the team?

In MM's wet dream where A-Rod is signed by the Astros.
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Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 03:47:58 pm »
Based on what reasoning of Purpura would Ensberg no longer be on the team?

You can find a cheaper priced bench right handed power hitter than Ensberg if that is his position on the team.  MoBerg needed to stranglehold both the 3rd base job and also the #5 spot in the lineup.  He's done neither so far.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 03:49:51 pm »
Based on what reasoning of Purpura would Ensberg no longer be on the team?

IIRC, he spent the off-season trying to deal Ensberg.  Ensberg apparently can only get a hit as a pinch hitter in the ninth.  And, see my post above with the NYCU quote.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 03:50:32 pm »
C: Ausmus is up, but I don't see a FA fix.  I think Munson is up with the hope that he will demonstrate the ability to be an effective backstop.

RF: Ichiro would head this list.  In MMP, you keep Ichiro in RF, Pence in CF, and slide them over towards LF.

3b: There's ARod, and there's everyone else.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2007, 03:51:21 pm »
Coming off the books:

Biggio - $5.15M
Ausmus - $4M
Ensberg - $4.35M
Lane - $1.05M
Palmeiro - $0.95M
edit:Bagwell - $7M

That's $22.5M right there.

There's a whole raft of players on one year deals:  Lidge currently makes $5.75mm, and I believe becomes a free agent this winter.  Everett too, at $2.8mm.  Lamb at $2.7mm.  Loretta at $2.5mm.  Wheeler at $2.1mm.  Miller at $1.3mm.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 03:51:54 pm »
The team with better pitching wins more games.

The team with the better pitching wins more games.

Which team wins more games if they have the same pitching (and fielding)?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2007, 03:52:28 pm »
Can we stop talking about the players' privates?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2007, 03:52:49 pm »
Which team wins more games if they have the same pitching (and fielding)?

The one with the better *performing* pitching.  Why do you ask?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2007, 03:53:12 pm »
Which team wins more games if they have the same pitching (and fielding)?

so back into hibernation or wherever you've been hiding. these questions are nonsense.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2007, 03:53:16 pm »
There's a whole raft of players on one year deals:  Lidge currently makes $5.75mm, and I believe becomes a free agent this winter.  Everett too, at $2.8mm.  Lamb at $2.7mm.  Loretta at $2.5mm.  Wheeler at $2.1mm.  Miller at $1.3mm.


Only Lamb is a FA.

Well Miller, and Loretta too.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2007, 03:54:33 pm »
The one with the better *performing* pitching.  Why do you ask?

And what if they both perform the same? They allow runs at the same rate. Which one wins more games?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2007, 03:55:25 pm »
Only Lamb is a FA.

Well Miller, and Loretta too.

Cool.  Glad Lidge and Everett are still under club control.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2007, 03:55:34 pm »
C: Ausmus is up, but I don't see a FA fix.  I think Munson is up with the hope that he will demonstrate the ability to be an effective backstop.

RF: Ichiro would head this list.  In MMP, you keep Ichiro in RF, Pence in CF, and slide them over towards LF.

3b: There's ARod, and there's everyone else.

I believe the odds right now are vvveeerrryyy long that Gimenez is able to come back and be the starter in 08.  IMO, as long as he continues to hit, the Astros will stopgap for Towles until 2010.

Itch e row, Itch e row, Itch e row.

You think ARod can do without the NY spotlight?  Or, Boras can do without the Yankees forking over megabucks to ARod?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2007, 03:55:47 pm »
so back into hibernation or wherever you've been hiding. these questions are nonsense.

Feel free to excuse yourself if the discussion is not enjoyable for you.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2007, 03:57:09 pm »
Itch e row, Itch e row, Itch e row.

I foresee a Gold Bond powder promotion in our future.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2007, 03:57:20 pm »
And what if they both perform the same? They allow runs at the same rate. Which one wins more games?

The team that I don't root for.  Is that an OK answer?

Fuck talking about hypothetical bull shit.  Let's talk about real bull shit.  

After we fire Garner, will Purpura be next in line?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2007, 03:58:59 pm »
3b: There's ARod, and there's everyone else.

ARod will not be a FA, correct?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2007, 03:59:29 pm »
And what if they both perform the same? They allow runs at the same rate. Which one wins more games?

CO-CHAMPIONS! (isn't that what happens in fantasy baseball?)  Again, why do you ask? (I'm really not that good at meta-data baseball, so you'll have to excuse me too from this exercise). 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:10:01 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2007, 03:59:32 pm »
ARod will not be a FA, correct?

He can opt out after this year.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2007, 03:59:34 pm »
Itch e row, Itch e row, Itch e row.

I can think of worse things than this team's first legitimate leadoff hitter since Biggio was in his prime.

Quote
You think ARod can do without the NY spotlight?
I think he's desperate to get out by this point.

Quote
 Or, Boras can do without the Yankees forking over megabucks to ARod?

Oh, it will take megabucks.  My implied point was that if this team crashes this year, Drayton may be ready to spend megabucks.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2007, 03:59:44 pm »
ARod will not be a FA, correct?

I believe ARod can void his contract after this season.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2007, 04:00:35 pm »
Oh, it will take megabucks.  My implied point was that if this team crashes this year, Drayton may be ready to spend megabucks.

Spend mega bucks. Or sell the team. Whatevs.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2007, 04:01:52 pm »
(isn't that what happens in fantasy baseball?) 

Read, St. Louis.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2007, 04:02:12 pm »
Oh, it will take megabucks.  My implied point was that if this team crashes this year, Drayton may be ready to spend megabucks.

That would give the Astros 3 high dollar everyday players.  The "Drayton is cheap" crowd would have a collective stroke.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2007, 04:03:49 pm »
I'd bet Arod was planning on opting out before the stripper incident.  I don't think there's any doubt now.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2007, 04:04:20 pm »
The "Drayton is cheap" crowd would have a collective stroke.

Not that I'm necessarily opposed to that.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2007, 04:05:02 pm »
I'd bet Arod was planning on opting out before the stripper incident.  I don't think there's any doubt now.

After last season's FA contracts, Boras would kidnap members of ARod's family and hold them for ransom to make sure he opts out.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2007, 04:05:29 pm »
Read, St. Louis.

See: All-Star Game, 2004

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2007, 04:05:34 pm »
I'd bet Arod was planning on opting out before the stripper incident.  I don't think there's any doubt now.

Do you really think he'll opt out if he's not going to make at least the same money as he gets now?  Boras and the MLBPA will have a shit-fit.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2007, 04:06:25 pm »
After last season's FA contracts, Boras would kidnap members of ARod's family and hold them for ransom to make sure he opts out.

First 200 million dollar man!

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2007, 04:06:25 pm »
"Baseball is simply a better game without the DH. "

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2007, 04:06:34 pm »
Do you really think he'll opt out if he's not going to make at least the same money as he gets now?  Boras and the MLBPA will have a shit-fit.

Guaranteed money, my maign.  He'll get a seven-year deal.

7 x $20M > 3 x $25M
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2007, 04:11:31 pm »
He'll get a seven-year deal.
7 x $30M > 3 x $25M

FIFY

With the kind of season he's having, it would not surprise me. But who in the hell would pay that? The Red Sox?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2007, 04:12:22 pm »
FIFY

With the kind of season he's having, it would not surprise me. But who in the hell would pay that? The Red Sox?

Tom Hicks will sign him for Liverpool.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2007, 04:13:49 pm »
FIFY

With the kind of season he's having, it would not surprise me. But who in the hell would pay that? The Red Sox?

Who expected Tom Hicks to outbid himself by $100M?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2007, 04:13:55 pm »
Guaranteed money, my maign.  He'll get a seven-year deal.

7 x $20M > 3 x $25M

Better: Opt out.  Yanks offer arb. Boras accepts.  Yanks have to pay ~30 mil for 08.  ARod FA for 09 and still get the 7 years and 20+.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2007, 04:14:04 pm »
Guaranteed money, my maign.  He'll get a seven-year deal.

7 x $20M > 3 x $25M

I was forgetting the time part of the equation.  Obviously.

FTR, no to A-Rod in Blood'n'Mud.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2007, 04:14:13 pm »
CO-CHAMPIONS! (isn't that what happens in fantasy baseball?)  Again, why do you ask? (I'm really not that go at meta-data baseball, so you'll have to excuse me too from this exercise). 

Because I think your are absolutely correct that many people may undervalue Everett's defensive contributions, but I don't think it that means that you always go with the better defensive shortstop.

If you had a shortstop who was almost but not quite as good as Everett defensively but batted much better, I think the considerable offensive difference might outweigh the marginal defensive difference.

On the other hand, if you had a shortstop who was much worse than Everett defensively but batted only marginally better, then you would absolutely be better off with Everett.

It is no mystery that the Astros at least considered this possibility when they contemplated acquiring Miguel Tejada, who is not as a good a fielder as Everett but hits a ton better.

I suspect that you might agree with this, but I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:16:50 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2007, 04:15:34 pm »
To circle back to a page 2 question:

Unless Purpura uses Jedi mind tricks to trade him, I'm pretty sure Ensberg gets non-tendered this offseason.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2007, 04:15:49 pm »
Tom Hicks will sign him for Liverpool.

Off topic but my daughter and I are really getting into soccer.  We enjoyed the hell outta the England/Brazil friendly and are eagerly anticipating the start of the EPL.

Go Spurs!!!!
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2007, 04:20:34 pm »
Off topic but my daughter and I are really getting into soccer.  We enjoyed the hell outta the England/Brazil friendly and are eagerly anticipating the start of the EPL.

Go Spurs!!!!

Also off topic:

Alexei Lalas loses his damn mind.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2007, 04:22:58 pm »
Also off topic:

Alexei Lalas loses his damn mind.

I saw that and started laughing my ass off.  Man U would destroy a best of MLS team.  Hell, West Ham would probably destroy a best of MLS team.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2007, 04:23:41 pm »
You can find a cheaper priced bench right handed power hitter than Ensberg if that is his position on the team.  MoBerg needed to stranglehold both the 3rd base job and also the #5 spot in the lineup.  He's done neither so far.

Didn't stop them from signing him for this season. 
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2007, 04:25:07 pm »
He was hurt last year.  He was only one year removed from that monster 2005 campaign.

Go back and read Purp's comments in NYCU, and tell me Ensberg's not #1 on that list.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2007, 04:27:06 pm »
Because I think your are absolutely correct that many people may undervalue Everett's defensive contributions, but I don't think it that means that you always go with the better defensive shortstop.

I wasn't trying to set a standard across the board, but rather whether this was a staple of the Houston Astros... or not.

Quote
If you had a shortstop who was almost but not quite as good as Everett defensively but batted much better, I think the considerable offensive difference might outweigh the marginal defensive difference.

Again, I concede that you can get more offense from any other shortstop out there that is not named Adam Everett.  I'm not convinced that this is about winning baseball games though as much as nice stats that look good on a fantasy baseball sheet more than anything else.  Or placation of media and fans who love to make such assumptions into reality.

Quote
On the other hand, if you had a shortstop who was much worse than Everett defensively but batted only marginally better, then you would absolutely be better off with Everett.

See above, I don't know how this coorelates with winning.

Quote
It is no mystery that the Astros at least considered this possibility when they contemplated acquiring Miguel Tejada, who is not as a good a fielder as Everett but hits a ton better.

I suspect that you might agree with this, but I'm not sure.

When they looked at Tejada, they were not thinking of placing him at #7.  They had a huge cleanup hitter problem at the time.  Problem solved with Carlos Lee.  See, they weren't looking to replace a shortstop at the time, they were looking for a middle of the lineup hitter.  Which is often missed when evaluating what specifically the Astros were trying to do with Tejada.  Either he was going to bat 3 and Berkman 4 or vice versa, but they were, again, trying to fix the huge problem of not having Bagwell around any more.

With Loretta, Scott, Lee, Pence, Berkman, Lamb and now Ausmus/Munson doing so well, you think the Astros are actively persuing a bat like Tejada to put him at #3 or #4?  I don't.  Probably doesn't even cross their minds I suspect.  So if they aren't persuing him this year, what does that tell you?  That shortstop is a problem area?  Please don't say yes.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:29:20 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2007, 04:28:12 pm »
Didn't stop them from signing him for this season. 

He was slated as the everyday third baseman and the #5 hitter when they signed.  He lost both jobs in two months.  He's a bench player now.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:38:50 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2007, 04:37:14 pm »
I don' t think the Mariners (or their Japanese owners) are going to let Ichiro get away.

As for A-Rod, do you think he'd rather play SS again, or stay at 3B?  Just wondering.  At any rate, I don't see him ever wearing a Houston uniform (Boras being the number one reason).

I believe the odds right now are vvveeerrryyy long that Gimenez is able to come back and be the starter in 08.  IMO, as long as he continues to hit, the Astros will stopgap for Towles until 2010.

Itch e row, Itch e row, Itch e row.

You think ARod can do without the NY spotlight?  Or, Boras can do without the Yankees forking over megabucks to ARod?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2007, 04:37:48 pm »
I wasn't trying to set a standard across the board, but rather whether this was a staple of the Houston Astros... or not.

Again, I concede that you can get more offense from any other shortstop out there that is not named Adam Everett.  I'm not convinced that this is about winning baseball games though as much as nice stats that look good on a fantasy baseball sheet more than anything else.  Or placation of media and fans who love to make such assumptions into reality.

See above, I don't know how this coorelates with winning.

When they looked at Tejada, they were not thinking of placing him at #7.  They had a huge cleanup hitter problem at the time.  Problem solved with Carlos Lee.  See, they weren't looking to replace a shortstop at the time, they were looking for a middle of the lineup hitter.  Which is often missed when evaluating what specifically the Astros were trying to do with Tejada.  Either he was going to bat 3 and Berkman 4 or vice versa, but they were, again, trying to fix the huge problem of not having Bagwell around any more.

With Loretta, Scott, Lee, Pence, Berkman, Lamb and now Ausmus/Munson doing so well, you think the Astros are actively persuing a bat like Tejada to put him at #3 or #4?  I don't.  Probably doesn't even cross their minds I suspect.  So if they aren't persuing him this year, what does that tell you?  That shortstop is a problem area?  Please don't say yes.

Regardless of whether they thought shortstop wasn't a problem area doesn't change the fact that they reportedly considered a move that would've resulted in replacing Everett with a worse-fielding shortstop who happened to hit better. In other words, whatever the motive, they were willing to sacrifice some defense at shortstop because they were looking at what Tejada would bring offensively.

I'm not sure how many fantasy baseball owners were sitting around hoping for Everett to go down with a broken leg, by the way. I think the nefarious machinations of fantasy owners are probably highly overestimated here, but I could be wrong.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2007, 04:38:57 pm »
I don't really care about Pence's arm in RF if he is flanked in center by Ichiro. I'm telling you- the astros wouldn't even need a third OF.  Everett could get short left and the Ichiro and pence could just play the gaps. It would be beautiful.

Since Lee would have to field his postion his responsibility would be about a 15 foot by 15 foot square.

This would be awesome.  I wouldn't even care about glaring holes at 2b and 3b- I'd even except (justice spelling) Burke at 2b and hitting anywhere.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2007, 04:41:26 pm »
Regardless of whether they thought shortstop wasn't a problem area doesn't change the fact that they reportedly considered a move that would've resulted in replacing Everett with a worse-fielding shortstop who happened to hit better. In other words, whatever the motive, they were willing to sacrifice some defense at shortstop because they were looking at what Tejada would bring offensively.

You're trying to make Tejada seem like a clank at shortstop and he's not.  And he's not a one-to-one replacement for Everett... he's a #3 hitter.  He was WAAAAAY more than a replacement for Everett, he wasn't even an upgrade for Everett... he was a replacement for Bagwell and the middle of the lineup.  I don't know how much easier I can explain this to you. 

Big difference in lineup strategy, not a big difference in defensive slot. A need was glaring and Tejada fit the need, not at shortstop... at #3 or #4.

Your problem is you cannot divorce defense from offense and vice versa, you duct tape both and try to make connections to each.

Quote
I'm not sure how many fantasy baseball owners were sitting around hoping for Everett to go down with a broken leg, by the way. I think the nefarious machinations of fantasy owners are probably highly overestimated here, but I could be wrong.

You are way more intelligent than this to misunderstand my point.  Or maybe your not.  Funny, I never thought you were an idiot.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:48:03 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2007, 04:50:10 pm »
Quote
You're trying to make Tejada seem like a clank at shortstop and he's not.  And he's not a one-to-one replacement for Everett... he's a #3 hitter.  Big difference in lineup, not a big difference in defensive slot.  Your problem is you cannot divorce defense from offense and vice versa, you duct tape both and try to make connections to each.

Sure. And I think the Astros absolutely must have realized that they would be giving up some defense by getting Tejada's bat into the line-up.

Quote
You are way more intelligent that this to misunderstand my point.  Or maybe your not.  Funny, I never thought you were an idiot.

Nice.

Your point was:

Quote
I concede that you can get more offense from any other shortstop out there that is not named Adam Everett.  I'm not convinced that this is about winning baseball games though as much as nice stats that look good on a fantasy baseball sheet more than anything else.

In contemplating getting more offense from Tejada, were the Astros thinking more about winning baseball games or nice stats that look good on a fantasy baseball sheet?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2007, 04:52:34 pm »
I don't really care about Pence's arm in RF if he is flanked in center by Ichiro. I'm telling you- the astros wouldn't even need a third OF.  Everett could get short left and the Ichiro and pence could just play the gaps. It would be beautiful.

Since Lee would have to field his postion his responsibility would be about a 15 foot by 15 foot square.

This would be awesome.  I wouldn't even care about glaring holes at 2b and 3b- I'd even except (justice spelling) Burke at 2b and hitting anywhere.

you do not care about a RFer's arm. oh, my. new to baseball, are you?

i guess you just like the way he looks in a uniform.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2007, 04:54:08 pm »
you do not care about a RFer's arm. oh, my. new to baseball, are you?

i guess you just like the way he looks in a uniform.

That would be my friend Christine.  I care about his arm.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2007, 04:56:00 pm »
Sure. And I think the Astros absolutely must have realized that they would be giving up some defense by getting Tejada's bat into the line-up.

But the need was offense (to replace the huge loss of Bagwell), not a shortstop.  They were not concerned that Tejada was going to be a huge downgrade from Everett nor did they look at the #7 spot and say "We need to fix that spot in the lineup".  It is that simple.

Quote
In contemplating getting more offense from Tejada, were the Astros thinking more about winning baseball games or nice stats that look good on a fantasy baseball sheet?

No.  Arky, can we stop talking for like... ahum... the rest of the season?  No offense, but I find this to be very boring.  You need to find someone else who likes playing these games with you.  I don't and I lose respect for you every time you do this.  Seriously, how long do we have to go through this needless and painful exercise to realize we don't talk baseball to each other and you and I have very little, if anything, in common when we try to?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 04:58:52 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2007, 04:56:58 pm »
But the need was offense, not a shortstop.

No.  Arky, can we stop talking for like... ahum... the rest of the season?  No offense, but I find this to be very boring.  You need to find someone else who likes playing these games with you.  I don't and I lose respect for you every time you do this.

ditto. this has just been a word game.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2007, 04:59:29 pm »
you do not care about a RFer's arm. oh, my. new to baseball, are you?

i guess you just like the way he looks in a uniform.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2007, 05:01:08 pm »
ditto. this has just been a word game.

It's not word games. It's a fundamental disagreement with part of Noe's premise. Which apparently is problematic for some reason.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2007, 05:02:00 pm »
It's not word games. It's a fundamental disagreement with part of Noe's premise. Which apparently is problematic for some reason.

word.games. complete with cross-examination.

very boring.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2007, 05:03:49 pm »
It's not word games. It's a fundamental disagreement with part of Noe's premise. Which apparently is problematic for some reason.

Again, I continue to lose respect for you and your ability to comprehend something so simple.  You are on some agenda of some sort to prove something else that I never intended with my point.  Carry on with someone else and leave me out because what you're arguing is not what I was saying, it's something else you *want* me to say by continuing to direct me to stupid directions that really are causing me all sorts of lost of respect for you.

Please leave me out of your game, it's not fun nor funny.  It's boring and not baseball to me.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2007, 05:04:56 pm »
Again, I continue to lose respect for you and your ability to comprehend something so simple.  You are on some agenda of some sort to prove something else that I never intended with my point.  Carry on with someone else and leave me out because what you're arguing is not what I was saying, it's something else you *want* me to say by continuing to direct me to stupid directions that really are causing me all sorts of lost of respect for you.

Please leave me out of your game, it's not fun nor funny.  It's boring and not baseball to me.

Don't post your opinions if you don't want to discuss them. Isn't that what we tell the Clarks?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2007, 05:05:24 pm »
word.games. complete with cross-examination.

very boring.

Eggszactly.  I read what he asks and say to myself "WTF!?!?" every time I get into this with Arky, and I've had tons of respect for him in the past.  It's getting old and I'm losing that respect for him every time he does this.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2007, 05:05:50 pm »
word.games. complete with cross-examination.

very boring.

Not nearly as exciting as patting each other on the back. Please carry on.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2007, 05:06:58 pm »
Don't post your opinions if you don't want to discuss them. Isn't that what we tell the Clarks?

Fuck you Arky, don't lead me to somewhere else next time.  Stay on my opinions if you want to discuss them.  Really, I'm losing my respect for you rapidly.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2007, 05:07:03 pm »
Not nearly as exciting as patting each other on the back. Please carry on.

go back to trying to make partner. much more productive for you. your efforts here wasted my time today. boring.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2007, 05:07:43 pm »
Not nearly as exciting as patting each other on the back. Please carry on.

Fuck Off!  You know we are not patting each other on the back so this shit is quite unbecoming of you.  You took a very simple premise and tried desperately to cloud it with inane post after inane post full of leading questions.  You have been here for a very long time and you know that I don't speak sabremetrics and I clearly opened my remarks with not supporting any of my observations with data because that is not... NOT what I intended to say.

Yet you came waltzing in here and bored me to tears with your stupid questions.  Please, leave me out of your games from now on.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 05:10:15 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2007, 05:08:43 pm »
Might I suggest that both parties would be better served moving to PM?
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #91 on: June 19, 2007, 05:09:10 pm »
Might I suggest that both parties would be better served moving to PM?

Agreed.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #92 on: June 19, 2007, 05:09:49 pm »
Might I suggest that both parties would be better served moving to PM?
so, you want both of them to tell you to fuck off?
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« Reply #93 on: June 19, 2007, 05:10:32 pm »
so, you want both of them to tell you to fuck off?

So long as they do it by PM.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2007, 05:11:00 pm »
go back to trying to make partner. much more productive for you. your efforts here wasted my time today. boring.

I missed you too, Coach.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #95 on: June 19, 2007, 05:12:43 pm »
So long as they do it by PM.

silly boy.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2007, 05:14:02 pm »
silly boy.

I have my moments of naive idealism.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #97 on: June 19, 2007, 05:14:05 pm »
I missed you too, Coach.

i wondered why you were not posting. i think i know why after reading this today: you have nothing to say.

i have no idea what y'all are arguing about, but your stuff was just playing games.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #98 on: June 19, 2007, 05:15:19 pm »
Might I suggest that both parties would be better served moving to PM?

Done.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #99 on: June 19, 2007, 05:17:33 pm »
I have my moments of naive idealism.

so unusual for an accountant. your father must have been a poet.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2007, 05:17:49 pm »
but your stuff was just playing games.

That's what irked me the most.  I don't want anyone to agree with me at all.  But I hate it... I mean I loathe it when I'm spoken to in riddles and childish games.  Be a man, that's all I ask.  Tell me I'm full of shit, I can handle that.  I lose all respect for those who wish to play games simply because they want to disagree with me.  I'm not important at all to waste your time and mine doing that.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2007, 05:19:40 pm »
Done.

Quit fighting in front of the kids.  They'll think you are fighting about them.

Hug it out, bitches.
You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy, I don't give a shit. Good father, fuck you. Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here, close. You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #102 on: June 19, 2007, 05:20:04 pm »
i wondered why you were not posting.

I appreciate the consideration.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #103 on: June 19, 2007, 05:21:44 pm »
Quit fighting in front of the kids.  They'll think you are fighting about them.

Hug it out, bitches.

We're fine.  Go back to your bedrooms and lock the doors and don't come out until we say it's fine!

:)

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #104 on: June 19, 2007, 05:23:32 pm »
We're fine.  Go back to your bedrooms and lock the doors and don't come out until we say it's fine!

:)

See, I blame this on Garner for not putting Lidge in to face Chode Faggins. 
You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy, I don't give a shit. Good father, fuck you. Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here, close. You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2007, 05:25:13 pm »
See, I blame this on Garner for not putting Lidge in to face Chode Faggins. 

I blame Adam Everett for breaking his leg.  Or the vile fantasy owners who cursed him with their ouija boards.  Damn them!

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2007, 05:26:48 pm »
I blame Adam Everett for breaking his leg.  Or the vile fantasy owners who cursed him with their ouija boards.  Damn them!

We know the true culprit:

thanks gerry

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2007, 05:28:40 pm »
i blame Dave Clark.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2007, 05:34:27 pm »
i blame Dave Clark.

I blame Andyzipp.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2007, 05:35:38 pm »
I blame Andyzipp.

I blame Andyzipp's latest avatar. I thought I might get used to it, but no, it just gets creepier.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2007, 05:39:00 pm »
I blame Andyzipp's latest avatar. I thought I might get used to it, but no, it just gets creepier.

it is Andy's wedding portrait.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2007, 05:43:15 pm »
it is Andy's wedding portrait.

Must have been a heck of a bachelor's party.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2007, 05:49:30 pm »
Must have been a heck of a bachelor's party.

shit, he'd been lifting weights for a year to bulk up like that.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #113 on: June 19, 2007, 05:50:38 pm »
That's what irked me the most.  I don't want anyone to agree with me at all.  But I hate it... I mean I loathe it when I'm spoken to in riddles and childish games.  Be a man, that's all I ask.  Tell me I'm full of shit, I can handle that.  I lose all respect for those who wish to play games simply because they want to disagree with me.  I'm not important at all to waste your time and mine doing that.


Well i won't tell you, you are full of shit, because that would be silly. And how do you loose respect for someone, from what they say (type) on a Fan Forum? That's silly too. I will say I don't think the Astros are as married to Adam as much as some here want them to be. I heard PUP say BEFORE Adam was hurt, that Burke could see some time at SS.

I think the marriage will last as long as Adam hits .250+  The Astros love for Adam is NOT unconditional.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #114 on: June 19, 2007, 05:53:33 pm »

Well i won't tell you, you are full of shit, because that would be silly. And how do you loose respect for someone, from what they say (type) on a Fan Forum? That's silly too. I will say I don't think the Astros are as married to Adam as much as some here want them to be. I heard PUP say BEFORE Adam was hurt, that Burke could see some time at SS.

I think the marriage will last as long as Adam hits .250+  The Astros love for Adam is NOT unconditional.

Arky is a friend of mine.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #115 on: June 19, 2007, 05:54:50 pm »


I think the marriage will last as long as Adam hits .250+  The Astros love for Adam is NOT unconditional.

you know what i think? you're nuts.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2007, 05:58:16 pm »

Well i won't tell you, you are full of shit, because that would be silly. And how do you loose respect for someone, from what they say (type) on a Fan Forum? That's silly too. I will say I don't think the Astros are as married to Adam as much as some here want them to be. I heard PUP say BEFORE Adam was hurt, that Burke could see some time at SS.

I think the marriage will last as long as Adam hits .250+  The Astros love for Adam is NOT unconditional.

Yeah, because look at all the PT Burke has gotten at short in the last 2 years.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2007, 06:15:45 pm »
Yeah, because look at all the PT Burke has gotten at short in the last 2 years.

That has never stopped the Astros. Loretta hadn't started a game at SS in 5 years.

I just hope Garner can see that Bruntlett is needed at SS right now, and I think he knows that Burke is not an option there. Pupura does not call the shots on the field, thank the diety.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2007, 06:33:32 pm »
That has never stopped the Astros. Loretta hadn't started a game at SS in 5 years.

I just hope Garner can see that Bruntlett is needed at SS right now, and I think he knows that Burke is not an option there. Pupura does not call the shots on the field, thank the diety.


I think Burke playing SS is just something the Astros Brass likes to talk about... Because I sure haven't seen him there at all.

P.S. He is an eh shortstop anyway. Noodle-arm SS = bad news.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2007, 06:48:17 pm »

I think Burke playing SS is just something the Astros Brass likes to talk about... Because I sure haven't seen him there at all.

P.S. He is an eh shortstop anyway. Noodle-arm SS = bad news.



I personally don't want to see Burke on the field, let alone SS.

I myself have learned to enjoy watching Adam play, are the Astros better because he broke his leg, ofcourse not, too many factors.
Would the Astros drop Adam in an instant if another slick fielding SS came along that could also hit, I think they would. if everything
fell into place.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #120 on: June 19, 2007, 06:58:16 pm »
I don't see how somebody could think that Arky was just playing mind games.

He was expressing disagreement with Noe.

I never really bought the whole "you can't analyze defense and offense independently" thing. With Everett out, you give up defense but you gain offense. As far as runs goes, the Astros will probably score more runs with Everett out of the lineup. They will also probably allow more runs. If there is a larger increase in runs scored than there is an increase in runs allowed, the net impact is a positive one. Obviously the fluctuations can't be attributed with certainty to Everett. There are metrics which can provide valuable information about that though. Personally, I love AE and think he's a valuable part of this team. The Astros don't spend enough money to have every spot in the lineup occupied by an offensive star. It makes sense to have a light bat stud fielder shortstop.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #121 on: June 19, 2007, 08:53:30 pm »
I don't see how somebody could think that Arky was just playing mind games.

He was expressing disagreement with Noe.

I never really bought the whole "you can't analyze defense and offense independently" thing. With Everett out, you give up defense but you gain offense. As far as runs goes, the Astros will probably score more runs with Everett out of the lineup. They will also probably allow more runs. If there is a larger increase in runs scored than there is an increase in runs allowed, the net impact is a positive one. Obviously the fluctuations can't be attributed with certainty to Everett. There are metrics which can provide valuable information about that though. Personally, I love AE and think he's a valuable part of this team. The Astros don't spend enough money to have every spot in the lineup occupied by an offensive star. It makes sense to have a light bat stud fielder shortstop.

Thanks, but Arky and I are friends and we know what went wrong.  We worked it out and we're cool.  As far as AE is concerned, he's valuable so we'll leave it at that.  Agree or not, he is and he contributes to winning baseball.  Plus the point I was trying to make more than anything else is what the *ASTROS* will think after 8 weeks.

I should be interesting and have little to nothing to do with my opinion on AE's value (or any sports show caller or even host or any media person).  It will be because the Astros believe (or don't) in what they need in terms of defense at shortstop.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #122 on: June 19, 2007, 11:39:34 pm »
I don't see how somebody could think that Arky was just playing mind games.

He was expressing disagreement with Noe.


well, thanks ever so much. now trot on along.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #123 on: June 20, 2007, 10:36:06 am »
you do not care about a RFer's arm. oh, my. new to baseball, are you?

i guess you just like the way he looks in a uniform.

That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying I do not care about Hunter Pence's arm b/c it is at a minimal standard necessary to play the position of RF. I care about Chris burke's arm out there because he is a damn turnstyle.

I don't think Hunter Pence's arm is appreciably worse then Luke Scott's arm, and he's getting the majority of the playing time. Would I prefer he switch arms with Vlady or Guillen or some such? Sure- but that ain't what we got and what is going to happen. Ichiro looked so good to me in CF that I'd play him there, even though he has a prototypical RF arm- do you really disagree with anything I"m saying here coach?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #124 on: June 20, 2007, 10:42:53 am »
That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying I do not care about Hunter Pence's arm b/c it is at a minimal standard necessary to play the position of RF. I care about Chris burke's arm out there because he is a damn turnstyle.

I don't think Hunter Pence's arm is appreciably worse then Luke Scott's arm, and he's getting the majority of the playing time. Would I prefer he switch arms with Vlady or Guillen or some such? Sure- but that ain't what we got and what is going to happen. Ichiro looked so good to me in CF that I'd play him there, even though he has a prototypical RF arm- do you really disagree with anything I"m saying here coach?

Luke Scott's arm is far better than Pence's arm
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #125 on: June 20, 2007, 10:53:00 am »
Luke Scott's arm is far better than Pence's arm

Strength, accuracy or both?

I remember you saying you thought Pence had a good enough arm earlier in the year- before changing that tune once he got up here.  So, would you play Ichiro in RF and Pence in CF?  I like the alignment the other way around, even though Ichiro obviously has the RF arm you drool over- but as we saw this weekend it ain't a waste to have that arm in CF (2 OF assists and stopping two other runners dead in their tracks at 3b).

Ichiro's arm saved them at least 3 runs in that series that I noticed- maybe more when you factor in the lost cause of the outs that the pitcher no longer had to record.

 

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #126 on: June 20, 2007, 10:57:16 am »
I don't see how somebody could think that Arky was just playing mind games.

He was expressing disagreement with Noe.

I never really bought the whole "you can't analyze defense and offense independently" thing. With Everett out, you give up defense but you gain offense. As far as runs goes, the Astros will probably score more runs with Everett out of the lineup. They will also probably allow more runs. If there is a larger increase in runs scored than there is an increase in runs allowed, the net impact is a positive one. Obviously the fluctuations can't be attributed with certainty to Everett. There are metrics which can provide valuable information about that though. Personally, I love AE and think he's a valuable part of this team. The Astros don't spend enough money to have every spot in the lineup occupied by an offensive star. It makes sense to have a light bat stud fielder shortstop.


Go back and read my post- the 2nd on the thread. It is not linear +/- for a player.  There is generally more value in preventing runs then scoring runs, because so many "great" offensive teams waste a ton of their runs in blowout games, but defense and pitching rarely go into prolonged slumps like offense does.

If you can't get guys out in the field it taxes your starters and taxes the bullpen.  Look at the 7th inning the other night as a prime example- you turn that DP and you are out of a whole hell of a lot of mess.


Look at Sampson's last start with Everett playing SS.  Everett made all three plays in the first inning- two of them of the blue star variety.  A lesser mortal might not make those plays, and you have guys on the corner with 1 out. Instead Sampson cruised through that inning and the next two.  What happens if he throws 30 pitches and gives up 2 runs in the first instead?  He damn sure ain't going 7 and 2/3 quality innings and giving up only 2 runs. Instead his line might look like his line looked against the angel's when all those balls were finding holes.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #127 on: June 20, 2007, 11:02:11 am »
Strength, accuracy or both?

I remember you saying you thought Pence had a good enough arm earlier in the year- before changing that tune once he got up here.  So, would you play Ichiro in RF and Pence in CF?  I like the alignment the other way around, even though Ichiro obviously has the RF arm you drool over- but as we saw this weekend it ain't a waste to have that arm in CF (2 OF assists and stopping two other runners dead in their tracks at 3b).

Ichiro's arm saved them at least 3 runs in that series that I noticed- maybe more when you factor in the lost cause of the outs that the pitcher no longer had to record. 

what i said was that his arm appeared strong to me but that he threw sidearm and was not accurate. that was after two homestands watching him throw from CF. no way did i say he has a RF arm.

Scott's is stronger and much more accurate, imo.

why are you talking about Ichiro? spend your time daydreaming about Hunter.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #128 on: June 20, 2007, 11:12:27 am »
what i said was that his arm appeared strong to me but that he threw sidearm and was not accurate. that was after two homestands watching him throw from CF. no way did i say he has a RF arm.

Scott's is stronger and much more accurate, imo.

why are you talking about Ichiro? spend your time daydreaming about Hunter.

If I daydream it isn't about Hunter Pence- I have the hearts drawn with my name and Vince Young's name on my big chief tablet in the trapperkeeper.  I think Hunter Pence is going to be a plus player in the bigs for a long time, but I don't think he's the savior of the franchise- just a guy that is going to be cheap for another 3 or 4 years and provide just below all star level play. 

The whole Ichiro thing was just in response to Roy's comments and the other comments about A-Rod vis a vis Ichiro.

I think Pence has got to be part of the long term success of this franchise-otherwise the stros are screwed, as everyone seems to feel they have no difference making everyday talent ready to be in the bigs for at least 3 year, no? If not Hunter to plug a hole and fill a void then who?  you can only do so much with free agency as those guys command huge dollars and the Astros- though not frugal, are not the yankees or red sox either.






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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #129 on: June 20, 2007, 11:14:52 am »
If I daydream it isn't about Hunter Pence- I have the hearts drawn with my name and Vince Young's name on my big chief tablet in the trapperkeeper.  I think Hunter Pence is going to be a plus player in the bigs for a long time, but I don't think he's the savior of the franchise- just a guy that is going to be cheap for another 3 or 4 years and provide just below all star level play. 

The whole Ichiro thing was just in response to Roy's comments and the other comments about A-Rod vis a vis Ichiro.

I think Pence has got to be part of the long term success of this franchise-otherwise the stros are screwed, as everyone seems to feel they have no difference making everyday talent ready to be in the bigs for at least 3 year, no? If not Hunter to plug a hole and fill a void then who?  you can only do so much with free agency as those guys command huge dollars and the Astros- though not frugal, are not the yankees or red sox either.

i do not spend a whole lot of time thinking about this stuff and no time worrying about it. you see, i cannot control it. i watch the games and root for the guys we have--all of them. overly simplistic, perhaps, but it works for me.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #130 on: June 20, 2007, 11:18:07 am »
i do not spend a whole lot of time thinking about this stuff and no time worrying about it. you see, i cannot control it. i watch the games and root for the guys we have--all of them. overly simplistic, perhaps, but it works for me.

I do the same (enjoy watching and rooting for whoever the good guys trot out- as long as they ain't shit bags which seems to be few and far between on this franchise).


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2007, 11:19:10 am »
Luke Scott's arm is far better than Pence's arm

I'm in the middle of a project now to get an accurate description of Gunther's throws, my preliminary sketch was "skittled".  "Pence skittled the ball into 2nd".  I have a grant to study using the word "wangdoodle".

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2007, 11:23:39 am »
I'm in the middle of a project now to get an accurate description of Gunther's throws, my preliminary sketch was "skittled".  "Pence skittled the ball into 2nd".  I have a grant to study using the word "wangdoodle".

i think Mrs. Pence was frightened by a boomerang when she was pregnant with Hunter.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #133 on: June 20, 2007, 11:28:24 am »
i think Mrs. Pence was frightened by a boomerang when she was pregnant with Hunter.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

"Boomeranged" is now the official verb of OWA with which to describe a Pence return of a batted ball.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #134 on: June 20, 2007, 11:29:17 am »

Go back and read my post- the 2nd on the thread. It is not linear +/- for a player.  There is generally more value in preventing runs then scoring runs, because so many "great" offensive teams waste a ton of their runs in blowout games, but defense and pitching rarely go into prolonged slumps like offense does.

If you can't get guys out in the field it taxes your starters and taxes the bullpen.  Look at the 7th inning the other night as a prime example- you turn that DP and you are out of a whole hell of a lot of mess.


Look at Sampson's last start with Everett playing SS.  Everett made all three plays in the first inning- two of them of the blue star variety.  A lesser mortal might not make those plays, and you have guys on the corner with 1 out. Instead Sampson cruised through that inning and the next two.  What happens if he throws 30 pitches and gives up 2 runs in the first instead?  He damn sure ain't going 7 and 2/3 quality innings and giving up only 2 runs. Instead his line might look like his line looked against the angel's when all those balls were finding holes.



While given the choice I'd take an additional run prevented over an additional run scored, the effect you are talking about can go both ways. A player who is not consuming as many outs in the line-up is extended the opposing team's pitching and defense, which would presumably have an effect similar to what you're describing. Moreover, even if an additional run prevented is more valuable than an additional run scored, at some point the value of a particular quantity of additional runs scored will outweigh the value of a particular quantity of additional runs prevented. Even if it's not one-on-one linear, there is theoretically a quantitative comparison there.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #135 on: June 20, 2007, 11:36:48 am »
While given the choice I'd take an additional run prevented over an additional run scored, the effect you are talking about can go both ways. A player who is not consuming as many outs in the line-up is extended the opposing team's pitching and defense, which would presumably have an effect similar to what you're describing. Moreover, even if an additional run prevented is more valuable than an additional run scored, at some point the value of a particular quantity of additional runs scored will outweigh the value of a particular quantity of additional runs prevented. Even if it's not one-on-one linear, there is theoretically a quantitative comparison there.

I don't disagree for a minute about that Arky- If you give me two runs scored for every loss of a run prevented I'm all in favor of that. My point was it was not as simple as the guy at the top of the page posted. The equation is not 10 runs scored vs a loss of 9 prevented automatically is better as he was implying.

You cannot (imo) ignore the fact that runs scored come in bunches, so you have a feast or famine element to it. Runs prevented are more steady, as defense and pitching go on hiatus less often, and for smaller periods of time.

Put another way- I think 750 runs is pretty average for a national league team. That's an average of about 4.5 a game.

If you guaranteed me I'd score four runs 81 times and 5 runs 81 times I'd be happy with that, and figure I'd win a shitload more games than a similar team that scores 7 runs one game and 2 the next, over and over and over again.
That teams gonna win right at 80 games.  Look at alkie's post about what the astros record would be if they scored 4 runs every game.  That doesn't happen- can't happen, so I'd just assume try to keep the other team from scoring, b/c that is more likely in my opinion.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #136 on: June 20, 2007, 12:51:25 pm »
You cannot (imo) ignore the fact that runs scored come in bunches, so you have a feast or famine element to it. Runs prevented are more steady, as defense and pitching go on hiatus less often, and for smaller periods of time.

Jimmy D a while back was going on about quantifying defense (in particular about Adam Everett) because he felt the measurement for Everett's contribution to prevent runs scored was not easily quantifiable.  Let me see if I can give justice to Jimmy D's point:

If you have two outs, bases loaded and the shortstop fails to make a play and because of that a run scores, does the contribution of said shortstop to the runs prevented end there?  I don't think it does because if the other team winds up scoring, say ten runs that inning, just limiting the runs prevented to 1 to the shortstop is shortsighted.  Conversely, if the shortstop makes a spectacular play to end an inning, how in the world can you qualify that as 1 or 2 runs prevented to the shortstop.  You have to make a ton of assumptions to quantify that scenario, so you're not talking reality, you're talking assumed outcomes and that skews the numbers.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #137 on: June 20, 2007, 12:58:45 pm »
Jimmy D a while back was going on about quantifying defense (in particular about Adam Everett) because he felt the measurement for Everett's contribution to prevent runs scored was not easily quantifiable.  Let me see if I can give justice to Jimmy D's point:

If you have two outs, bases loaded and the shortstop fails to make a play and because of that a run scores, does the contribution of said shortstop to the runs prevented end there?  I don't think it does because if the other team winds up scoring, say ten runs that inning, just limiting the runs prevented to 1 to the shortstop is shortsighted.  Conversely, if the shortstop makes a spectacular play to end an inning, how in the world can you qualify that as 1 or 2 runs prevented to the shortstop.  You have to make a ton of assumptions to quantify that scenario, so you're not talking reality, you're talking assumed outcomes and that skews the numbers.

Agreeed.

Without a time machine who is to say though? In my example above about the sampson game all we know is Sampson got 3 outs on 8 pitches in the first innning.

Maybe he throws 30 pitches and gives up 4 runs.  Maybe a mere mortal allows 1st and 3rd with one out and he induces a double play ground ball on the next pitch?  Who knows. All I know is that AE's plays prevented possible trouble, and made young sampson's life easier.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #138 on: June 20, 2007, 01:58:29 pm »
Agreeed.

Without a time machine who is to say though? In my example above about the sampson game all we know is Sampson got 3 outs on 8 pitches in the first innning.

Maybe he throws 30 pitches and gives up 4 runs.  Maybe a mere mortal allows 1st and 3rd with one out and he induces a double play ground ball on the next pitch?  Who knows. All I know is that AE's plays prevented possible trouble, and made young sampson's life easier.



Eggszactly.  Hard to quantify, not entirely hard to understand.  IMHO of course.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #139 on: June 20, 2007, 04:11:23 pm »
Jimmy D a while back was going on about quantifying defense (in particular about Adam Everett) because he felt the measurement for Everett's contribution to prevent runs scored was not easily quantifiable.  Let me see if I can give justice to Jimmy D's point:

If you have two outs, bases loaded and the shortstop fails to make a play and because of that a run scores, does the contribution of said shortstop to the runs prevented end there?  I don't think it does because if the other team winds up scoring, say ten runs that inning, just limiting the runs prevented to 1 to the shortstop is shortsighted.  Conversely, if the shortstop makes a spectacular play to end an inning, how in the world can you qualify that as 1 or 2 runs prevented to the shortstop.  You have to make a ton of assumptions to quantify that scenario, so you're not talking reality, you're talking assumed outcomes and that skews the numbers.

I agree with this analysis, Noe, but this works on offense, too.

The bases are loaded with two outs and the team's best hitter comes up. He hits a double, clears the bases, and later scores himself. The string keeps going, and the team scores a half-dozen more runs.

Or, the bases are loaded with two outs and the team's worst hitter comes up. He strikes out.

The team's best hitter was arguably not just three RBI and one run scored better than the team's worst hitter, if you give him credit for everything that happens after him in that inning, since he was crucial to keeping it alive.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #140 on: June 20, 2007, 04:24:08 pm »
I agree with this analysis, Noe, but this works on offense, too.

The bases are loaded with two outs and the team's best hitter comes up. He hits a double, clears the bases, and later scores himself. The string keeps going, and the team scores a half-dozen more runs.

Or, the bases are loaded with two outs and the team's worst hitter comes up. He strikes out.

The team's best hitter was arguably not just three RBI and one run scored better than the team's worst hitter, if you give him credit for everything that happens after him in that inning, since he was crucial to keeping it alive.

Eggszactly.  But that means quantification has it's noise and not that it is not valuable, but it cannot measure *fully* the value of a player who performs at certain levels on both offense and defense.  A shortstop that fields a ball well is a godsend and it's hard to qualify that and it's inherent bonus of said peformance.  That's why I rarely, if ever, try to do it.

I can't.  I won't.  But I know what I can see and what huge potential damage was just avoided by having the best shortstop in all the majors standing behind you (as a one time amatuer pitcher, I know how much that would mean to me even at that level... imagine if I had a shortstop that fields on an entirely higher level such as the majors and then to realize that I'm looking at the very best player at that critical position?  WOW!)

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #141 on: June 20, 2007, 04:58:45 pm »
Eggszactly.  But that means quantification has it's noise and not that it is not valuable, but it cannot measure *fully* the value of a player who performs at certain levels on both offense and defense.  A shortstop that fields a ball well is a godsend and it's hard to qualify that and it's inherent bonus of said peformance.  That's why I rarely, if ever, try to do it.

I can't.  I won't.  But I know what I can see and what huge potential damage was just avoided by having the best shortstop in all the majors standing behind you (as a one time amatuer pitcher, I know how much that would mean to me even at that level... imagine if I had a shortstop that fields on an entirely higher level such as the majors and then to realize that I'm looking at the very best player at that critical position?  WOW!)

Adam Everett is the funnest Astro to watch in the field whom I've seen in my lifetime.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #142 on: June 20, 2007, 05:25:26 pm »
Adam Everett is the funnest Astro to watch in the field whom I've seen in my lifetime.

whatev

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #143 on: June 20, 2007, 06:21:49 pm »
whatev

i think i prefer your arguments to your serious debates.
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Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #144 on: June 20, 2007, 07:01:32 pm »
i think i prefer your arguments to your serious debates.

:)

jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #145 on: June 20, 2007, 11:54:21 pm »
:)

Don't get me wrong, Bruntlett mades some nice plays tonight, but we'd be winning tonight's game right now if AE was in there instead.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #146 on: June 21, 2007, 12:14:42 am »
Don't get me wrong, Bruntlett mades some nice plays tonight, but we'd be winning tonight's game right now if AE was in there instead.

Don't tell us, tell the fuckwits at the Chronicle.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #147 on: June 21, 2007, 12:17:29 am »
Don't get me wrong, Bruntlett mades some nice plays tonight, but we'd be winning tonight's game right now if AE was in there instead.

hard to get you wrong. you're saying Bruntlett at SS lost the game. how? was he pitching in Borkowski's uniform?
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pravata

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #148 on: June 21, 2007, 12:19:25 am »
hard to get you wrong. you're saying Bruntlett at SS lost the game. how? was he pitching in Borkowski's uniform?

He's talking about the throw on the bouncer up the middle.  Everett's achilles heal is his throwing, so no guarantee there.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #149 on: June 21, 2007, 12:21:14 am »
He's talking about the throw on the bouncer up the middle.  Everett's achilles heal is his throwing, so no guarantee there.

oh, i know what he was talking about. all that did was put one on with one out. if Twinkie were not a pudgy statue, he shifts his feet and makes the play.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #150 on: June 21, 2007, 12:23:14 am »
hard to get you wrong. you're saying Bruntlett at SS lost the game. how? was he pitching in Borkowski's uniform?

That is eggszactly the point.  Pitchers have to bear down a little more because you don't have the defense behind you to save you from yourself.  But as they say, there is absolutely no defense against a walk.  Sadly, Borkowski pitched to the bottom of the order as if he was concerned about them.  You have to go after them else you have no business being out there.

pravata

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #151 on: June 21, 2007, 12:23:24 am »
oh, i know what he was talking about. all that did was put one on with one out. if Twinkie were not a pudgy statue, he shifts his feet and makes the play.

There is that.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #152 on: June 21, 2007, 06:34:31 am »
That is eggszactly the point.  Pitchers have to bear down a little more because you don't have the defense behind you to save you from yourself.  But as they say, there is absolutely no defense against a walk.  Sadly, Borkowski pitched to the bottom of the order as if he was concerned about them.  You have to go after them else you have no business being out there.

This is my question about last night's game, was the major problem Bork not throwing strikes, or was it Angel Fucknandez not calling strikes.  This is an honest question since i was at work and could only catch the gamecast feed.  Seriously, many of Borks pitches showed up in the strike zone on gamecast, but they were still called balls.  Did we get fucked or not, inquiring minds want to know?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #153 on: June 21, 2007, 07:47:57 am »
This is my question about last night's game, was the major problem Bork not throwing strikes, or was it Angel Fucknandez not calling strikes.  This is an honest question since i was at work and could only catch the gamecast feed.  Seriously, many of Borks pitches showed up in the strike zone on gamecast, but they were still called balls.  Did we get fucked or not, inquiring minds want to know?

Bork was not throwing strikes.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #154 on: June 21, 2007, 08:18:30 am »
I'm glad the conversation turned back to defense instead of whether Houston needs to replace someone in their OF.  They ran a stat the other night that highlighted the % of offense Houston's OF is contributing.  The OF is out-performing the IF by a healthy margin.  That's not earth shattering, as that plays to the Astros strategy.  However, the ratio is concerning.  If we are going to discuss replacements, focus on 3B.  1B would be in question too but you don't bounce Berkman for a bad half-season.  And I have to add on to Jim's comments about Berkman's defense.  Is it me or has he regressed somehow?  I thought he was better in the field than what he's done this year.  Obviously, I could be wrong.

As for SS defense:
Everett > Bruntlett > Loretta

That's not difficult to conclude.  I missed the last 2 games, business travel, and was wondering how Bruntlett has done in his PT so far?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 08:21:10 am by S.P. Rodriguez »
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jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #155 on: June 21, 2007, 10:24:11 am »
hard to get you wrong. you're saying Bruntlett at SS lost the game. how? was he pitching in Borkowski's uniform?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines that Everett would've helped to win the game.  That play was not automatic for Bruntlett...but IMO Everett makes that play 9 times outta 10 (all due respect to Pravata).  Sure Bork blew the game but he may never have entered the game had the play up the middle been made.  Just say'n.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #156 on: June 21, 2007, 10:28:26 am »
Actually I was thinking more along the lines that Everett would've helped to win the game.  That play was not automatic for Bruntlett...but IMO Everett makes that play 9 times outta 10 (all due respect to Pravata).  Sure Bork blew the game but he may never have entered the game had the play up the middle been made.  Just say'n.

oh, please...and if his father had not met his mother, he may not have been born.
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jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #157 on: June 21, 2007, 10:35:34 am »
oh, please...and if his father had not met his mother, he may not have been born.

We can agree to disagree I guess...next question...what in the fuck was Bork doing in the game in that situation?  Why else did Qualls appeal his suspension?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #158 on: June 21, 2007, 10:38:16 am »
We can agree to disagree I guess...next question...what in the fuck was Bork doing in the game in that situation?  Why else did Qualls appeal his suspension?

That would've been 4 games in a row for Qualls (IIRC).
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #159 on: June 21, 2007, 10:41:27 am »
We can agree to disagree I guess...next question...what in the fuck was Bork doing in the game in that situation?  Why else did Qualls appeal his suspension?

to get the number of games reduced, of course. Bork had been pitching well enough to be in there in the 7th. perhaps you had not heard but Lidge is injured, and the pen is somewhat affected by that.

any other second-guesses?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #160 on: June 21, 2007, 10:43:18 am »
We can agree to disagree I guess...next question...what in the fuck was Bork doing in the game in that situation?  Why else did Qualls appeal his suspension?

Bork really was the best option. It's hardly debatable.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #161 on: June 21, 2007, 10:43:38 am »
We can agree to disagree I guess...next question...what in the fuck was Bork doing in the game in that situation?  Why else did Qualls appeal his suspension?

7th Inning.  Wheeler has the 9th, Qualls/Miller the 8th, White has the 7th on normal days... but he pitched two innings the night before.  The choice was Randolph (who arrived late I think) or Borkowski.

The real issue is not why he was used... it was why couldn't he throw a freaking strike to a AAA callup and a rookie hitter before he got to the monster that is Vlad the Bad!  *sigh*

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #162 on: June 21, 2007, 10:59:39 am »
Nobody else but Bork made sense. He's earned the opportunity to try important situations imo, with the instability right now with lidge gone.

No problem at all with him getting the call- even though the inning sucked.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #163 on: June 21, 2007, 12:54:46 pm »
Nobody else but Bork made sense. He's earned the opportunity to try important situations imo, with the instability right now with lidge gone.

No problem at all with him getting the call- even though the inning sucked.


Given the situation (2 men already on - top of the lineup coming) I'd of rather seen Wheeler or Qualls in there.  Let Bork start off fresh with the bases empty in the 8th if need be.  Not downing Bork, as he's done a great job...I just have more faith in the other two pitchers given the situation.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #164 on: June 21, 2007, 12:56:09 pm »
Given the situation (2 men already on - top of the lineup coming) I'd of rather seen Wheeler or Qualls in there.  Let Bork start off fresh with the bases empty in the 8th if need be.  Not downing Bork, as he's done a great job...I just have more faith in the other two pitchers given the situation.

What situation?  Man on first and second, one out is not that critical a situation and one you don't burn your closer to get out of in the 7th.  You're just making shit up now.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #165 on: June 21, 2007, 12:57:22 pm »
Given the situation (2 men already on - top of the lineup coming) I'd of rather seen Wheeler or Qualls in there.  Let Bork start off fresh with the bases empty in the 8th if need be.  Not downing Bork, as he's done a great job...I just have more faith in the other two pitchers given the situation.

yeah, Qualls did a great job Monday. all you are doing is 20-20 hindsight.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #166 on: June 21, 2007, 01:00:47 pm »
yeah, Qualls did a great job Monday. all you are doing is 20-20 hindsight.

Folks, apparently from listening to some of the sampling of the radio talk shows this afternoon and this morning, think they know more than Garner.  It is that clear to me.  Never mind that Garner and Wallace meet with the relievers before a game and get a reality check on who is available and who is not.  That does *NOT* matter... we know more because from the luxury of our couch we know who is available and who is not.  We know who will work in the 7th and who will not.  Somehow we get this information fed to us via telepathy I guess because how else would we know?

We know and we will not stand for this incompetence by Garner any more!

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #167 on: June 21, 2007, 01:03:11 pm »
Folks, apparently from listening to some of the sampling of the radio talk shows this afternoon and this morning, think they know more than Garner.  It is that clear to me.  Never mind that Garner and Wallace meet with the relievers before a game and get a reality check on who is available and who is not.  That does *NOT* matter... we know more because from the luxury of our couch we know who is available and who is not.  We know who will work in the 7th and who will not.  Somehow we get this information fed to us via telepathy I guess because how else would we know?

We know and we will not stand for this incompetence by Garner any more!

no, no, no. we watch how the inning comes out, then say "what he SHOULD have done is...."
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #168 on: June 21, 2007, 01:03:28 pm »
What situation?  Man on first and second, one out is not that critical a situation and one you don't burn your closer to get out of in the 7th.  You're just making shit up now.

Plus- add that to the fact that Qualls has pitched like 3 or 4 days in a row- correct?

He might not have even been available. besides- this ain't a high school game- we go 9 innings here, so somebody had to take care of the 8th and 9th.

jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #169 on: June 21, 2007, 01:04:42 pm »
What situation?  Man on first and second, one out is not that critical a situation and one you don't burn your closer to get out of in the 7th.  You're just making shit up now.

I'm not making shit up...I'm throwing my opinion out there, and hoping to learn something.  I never understood why innings had to be slotted at the end of the game...why you wouldn't bring your closer in, say in the 8th, if there was traffic on the bases, etc.  If I was managing, that's what I would do.  It's obvious there's a major flaw in handling your bullpen in that fashion, otherwise managers would actually do it.  So what is the flaw?  Enlighten me.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #170 on: June 21, 2007, 01:06:02 pm »
Plus- add that to the fact that Qualls has pitched like 3 or 4 days in a row- correct?

He might not have even been available. besides- this ain't a high school game- we go 9 innings here, so somebody had to take care of the 8th and 9th.



Pssst... he wasn't available.  *Wink, wink*

jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #171 on: June 21, 2007, 01:07:41 pm »
Folks, apparently from listening to some of the sampling of the radio talk shows this afternoon and this morning, think they know more than Garner.  It is that clear to me.  Never mind that Garner and Wallace meet with the relievers before a game and get a reality check on who is available and who is not.  That does *NOT* matter... we know more because from the luxury of our couch we know who is available and who is not. 

Then answer the question I asked a while back....if he's not available, then why did he appeal the suspension?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #172 on: June 21, 2007, 01:10:23 pm »
I'm not making shit up...

I think you are, but that's just my opinion of course.

Quote
I'm throwing my opinion out there, and hoping to learn something.

Okay, then listen to what is being said.  Some relievers were *not* available.  Some relievers have a role/slot that is *NOT* the 7th inning work.  Borkowski was used because 1) he's a good reliever and 2) he was available.  Criticize his performance all you want, it's your right as a fan.  But when you cross over into managerial decisions, be prepared to have your own experience doing the job questioned, your own source of information that either matches or betters that of the manager questioned and lastly be prepared to make some sense in doing so.

Quote
I never understood why innings had to be slotted at the end of the game...why you wouldn't bring your closer in, say in the 8th, if there was traffic on the bases, etc.  If I was managing, that's what I would do.  It's obvious there's a major flaw in handling your bullpen in that fashion, otherwise managers would actually do it.  So what is the flaw?  Enlighten me.

Here is your elightenment for today: You. Don't. Know. What. Phil. Garner. Knows.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 01:14:07 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #173 on: June 21, 2007, 01:11:49 pm »
Then answer the question I asked a while back....if he's not available, then why did he appeal the suspension?

I assume he appealed it to get it reduced, regardless of his availability last night.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #174 on: June 21, 2007, 01:12:39 pm »
Then answer the question I asked a while back....if he's not available, then why did he appeal the suspension?

Gawd, you're being purposely dense, aren't you?

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #175 on: June 21, 2007, 01:13:43 pm »
I assume he appealed it to get it reduced, regardless of his availability last night.

which is what i told him about 32 posts ago.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #176 on: June 21, 2007, 01:14:25 pm »
Gawd, you're being purposely dense, aren't you?

I wish...not all of us fall within the top 3%, or 10% or 50%...nevermind.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #177 on: June 21, 2007, 01:15:26 pm »
which is what i told him about 32 posts ago.



Trying to tell someone as simple as that has got to be very frustrating when they just refuse to listen.

Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #178 on: June 21, 2007, 01:15:57 pm »
I wish...not all of us fall within the top 3%, or 10% or 50%...nevermind.

Listening helps.  Try it.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #179 on: June 21, 2007, 01:16:54 pm »
I'm not making shit up...I'm throwing my opinion out there, and hoping to learn something.  I never understood why innings had to be slotted at the end of the game...why you wouldn't bring your closer in, say in the 8th, if there was traffic on the bases, etc.  If I was managing, that's what I would do.  It's obvious there's a major flaw in handling your bullpen in that fashion, otherwise managers would actually do it.  So what is the flaw?  Enlighten me.

You know, there is a hell of a lot of real smart people (like bill james) who think that a bullpen should be used this way.

If Boston has a one run lead going into the bottom of the eight and the Yanks 3, 4, 5 are coming in then the argument is to bring in Pappelbon b/c it is the highest leverage inning you can pitch.  Human nature says that people like to know what is expected of them in their job, and if you don't rack up saves you don't get paid the big bucks, so that militates against guys being used like this.

That scenario involves bringing in a guy to start the 8th vs wait on the 9th for him. When you get runners on base it gets even messier- does your guy hold runners on well, does he warm up quickly enough to be ready when trouble comes (b/c you don't know if there is trouble until there is etc).

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing such a grand experiment take place, but I don't think many young men whose livelihoods are at stake are going to volunteer to be such a guinea pig (nor old GM's/Manager's).


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #180 on: June 21, 2007, 01:22:00 pm »
You know, there is a hell of a lot of real smart people (like bill james) who think that a bullpen should be used this way.

If Boston has a one run lead going into the bottom of the eight and the Yanks 3, 4, 5 are coming in then the argument is to bring in Pappelbon b/c it is the highest leverage inning you can pitch.  Human nature says that people like to know what is expected of them in their job, and if you don't rack up saves you don't get paid the big bucks, so that militates against guys being used like this.

That scenario involves bringing in a guy to start the 8th vs wait on the 9th for him. When you get runners on base it gets even messier- does your guy hold runners on well, does he warm up quickly enough to be ready when trouble comes (b/c you don't know if there is trouble until there is etc).

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing such a grand experiment take place, but I don't think many young men whose livelihoods are at stake are going to volunteer to be such a guinea pig (nor old GM's/Manager's).

didn't Boston--or some team--try out James' theory? as i recall, some team did and went back to the conventional system when the bright idea failed.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #181 on: June 21, 2007, 01:22:23 pm »
You know, there is a hell of a lot of real smart people (like bill james) who think that a bullpen should be used this way.

If Boston has a one run lead going into the bottom of the eight and the Yanks 3, 4, 5 are coming in then the argument is to bring in Pappelbon b/c it is the highest leverage inning you can pitch.  Human nature says that people like to know what is expected of them in their job, and if you don't rack up saves you don't get paid the big bucks, so that militates against guys being used like this.

That scenario involves bringing in a guy to start the 8th vs wait on the 9th for him. When you get runners on base it gets even messier- does your guy hold runners on well, does he warm up quickly enough to be ready when trouble comes (b/c you don't know if there is trouble until there is etc).

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing such a grand experiment take place, but I don't think many young men whose livelihoods are at stake are going to volunteer to be such a guinea pig (nor old GM's/Manager's).

Epstein tried it for a while and then abandoned it when it did not work well given how use to a role relievers are nowadays.  I wish it were different, but like any one of us who works for a living, we like to know our job description so we can do it well.  The idea of a modle reliever may work if your started them in the minors doing this so they can get used to the role as that particular strategy requires.  But to do so when a guy is used to a role under the current system of middle-to-setup-to-closer system is asking for the same trouble Epstein ran into with the BoSox and then abandoned.

Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #182 on: June 21, 2007, 01:23:27 pm »
didn't Boston--or some team--try out James' theory? as i recall, some team did and went back to the conventional system when the bright idea failed.

Boston and Theo Epstein tried it for about a month.  And found themselves losing games quickly, so they abandoned the idea as fast as they could.

jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #183 on: June 21, 2007, 01:25:37 pm »
Listening helps.  Try it.

I did read Jim's post...just figured that if you can one game back now, guaranteed....then you take that vs. going for two.  Obviously someone within the org feels strongly that it will get reduced to one...fine.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #184 on: June 21, 2007, 01:25:44 pm »
You know, there is a hell of a lot of real smart people (like bill james) who think that a bullpen should be used this way.

If Boston has a one run lead going into the bottom of the eight and the Yanks 3, 4, 5 are coming in then the argument is to bring in Pappelbon b/c it is the highest leverage inning you can pitch.  Human nature says that people like to know what is expected of them in their job, and if you don't rack up saves you don't get paid the big bucks, so that militates against guys being used like this.

That scenario involves bringing in a guy to start the 8th vs wait on the 9th for him. When you get runners on base it gets even messier- does your guy hold runners on well, does he warm up quickly enough to be ready when trouble comes (b/c you don't know if there is trouble until there is etc).

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing such a grand experiment take place, but I don't think many young men whose livelihoods are at stake are going to volunteer to be such a guinea pig (nor old GM's/Manager's).



I've seen it happen so many times that the set-up man has to go through the meat of the order, and the closer gets the lower end and/or some pinch hitters.  The closer gets the glory and the set-up man gets a hold, and a year taken off his life.  It's always seemed counter-intuitive to me not to bring in the closer in the 8th in these circumstances.
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jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #185 on: June 21, 2007, 01:27:32 pm »
You know, there is a hell of a lot of real smart people (like bill james) who think that a bullpen should be used this way.

If Boston has a one run lead going into the bottom of the eight and the Yanks 3, 4, 5 are coming in then the argument is to bring in Pappelbon b/c it is the highest leverage inning you can pitch.  Human nature says that people like to know what is expected of them in their job, and if you don't rack up saves you don't get paid the big bucks, so that militates against guys being used like this.

That scenario involves bringing in a guy to start the 8th vs wait on the 9th for him. When you get runners on base it gets even messier- does your guy hold runners on well, does he warm up quickly enough to be ready when trouble comes (b/c you don't know if there is trouble until there is etc).

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing such a grand experiment take place, but I don't think many young men whose livelihoods are at stake are going to volunteer to be such a guinea pig (nor old GM's/Manager's).



Thanks for your perspective.  The point about the problem of relievers getting warmed up in time makes a ton of sense.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #186 on: June 21, 2007, 01:27:36 pm »
I did read Jim's post...just figured that if you can one game back now, guaranteed....then you take that vs. going for two.  Obviously someone within the org feels strongly that it will get reduced to one...fine.

Look, you're a smart guy... list for yourself how a reliever can possibly be unavailable for two innings of work.  The list for yourself how a reliever is unavailable for one inning.  Then list for yourself all the ways a reliever is unavailble for more than just one hitter, two tops.

Don't include "appealling a suspension" in your list.  Help yourself out here.

jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #187 on: June 21, 2007, 01:32:20 pm »
Boston and Theo Epstein tried it for about a month.  And found themselves losing games quickly, so they abandoned the idea as fast as they could.

Ah, but as I remember it...Epstein had an entirety different theory than what I placed on the table.  He decided he didn't need a bonifide closer at all...period.  In fact, I don't think he even broke camp with a former closer of any kind.  The Sox ended up trying 3-4 different guys in the closer role and they all failed.  Could be wrong, but they eventually acquired Foulke shortly thereafter.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #188 on: June 21, 2007, 01:34:19 pm »
I did read Jim's post...just figured that if you can one game back now, guaranteed....then you take that vs. going for two.  Obviously someone within the org feels strongly that it will get reduced to one...fine.

do you even acknowledge the possibility that your "i just figured" might be wrong?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #189 on: June 21, 2007, 01:36:41 pm »
Ah, but as I remember it...Epstein had an entirety different theory than what I placed on the table.  He decided he didn't need a bonifide closer at all...period.  In fact, I don't think he even broke camp with a former closer of any kind.  The Sox ended up trying 3-4 different guys in the closer role and they all failed.  Could be wrong, but they eventually acquired Foulke shortly thereafter.

/quote]

god God almighty. if you are using your "closer" in the 8th, HE IS NOT YOUR "CLOSER" UNLESS HE HAS TO FINISH THE GAME NO MATTER WHEN HE ENTERS IT.
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jaklewein

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #190 on: June 21, 2007, 01:44:11 pm »
Ah, but as I remember it...Epstein had an entirety different theory than what I placed on the table.  He decided he didn't need a bonifide closer at all...period.  In fact, I don't think he even broke camp with a former closer of any kind.  The Sox ended up trying 3-4 different guys in the closer role and they all failed.  Could be wrong, but they eventually acquired Foulke shortly thereafter.

/quote]

god God almighty. if you are using your "closer" in the 8th, HE IS NOT YOUR "CLOSER" UNLESS HE HAS TO FINISH THE GAME NO MATTER WHEN HE ENTERS IT.

Fuck it, then substitute the word "closer" for "best fucking relief pitcher on the team".

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #191 on: June 21, 2007, 01:47:19 pm »
do you even acknowledge the possibility that your "i just figured" might be wrong?

Nope.  'Tis what I see going on here.  Screw that "enlighten me" crap, he doesn't want to admit he was just upset at Garner.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #192 on: June 21, 2007, 01:50:24 pm »
Fuck it, then substitute the word "closer" for "best fucking relief pitcher on the team".

ok, Genius, your best reliever snuffs out the rally in the 7th, but he cannot go 2-3 innings. so you bring in your second or third best reliever to try to finish the game. he melts down and blows the lead. what do you say at the press conference when they ask why you did not have your best ready to stop the winning rally?
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #193 on: June 21, 2007, 01:52:38 pm »
ok, Genius, your best reliever snuffs out the rally in the 7th, but he cannot go 2-3 innings. so you bring in your second or third best reliever to try to finish the game. he melts down and blows the lead. what do you say at the press conference when they ask why you did not have your best ready to stop the winning rally?

You don't understand coach.  Borkowski won't meltdown if he has to finish the game.  That's how it works!  Do it my way, not the actual manager's way... 100% guarantee of success!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 01:55:43 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #194 on: June 21, 2007, 02:00:09 pm »
Nope.  'Tis what I see going on here.  Screw that "enlighten me" crap, he doesn't want to admit he was just upset at Garner.

I'm obviously lost...I don't get where either of you are coming from, even though I have actually tried to figure it out.  My fault for sure...I apologize.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #195 on: June 21, 2007, 02:05:23 pm »
I'm obviously lost...I don't get where either of you are coming from, even though I have actually tried to figure it out.  My fault for sure...I apologize.

There has been more than *one* or *two* folks who told you that Borkowski was not a bad option.  His performance was bad, no one... absolutely no one disputes that.  But to say that this is a managerial faux pax is trying to fix a problem that does not exist.  Either you understand or you don't.  If you think Garner was wrong, admit it but take the lumps for being a Monday morning quarterback (to borrow a phrase from another sport).  It is really a bad way to evaluate a game's outcome.

If Garner calls for a bunt, it doesn't work and the runner that is being advanced is thrown out at second, it's his fault for not calling for a hit and run instead?  See the problem here?  You don't do that with all good coincience and especially in here and think it's going to fly.  You can veil the reasons you think a hit and run would be better, cite all the stats that say hit and runs work best, cite the use of a hitter who makes good contact is better used to swing away, but it's all after the fact and is based on the bad outcome and not entirely on the bad decision.

You either understand this or you don't.  I mention how I personally would've used Eric Munson to pinch hit for Biggio earlier today.  I was second guessing the manager for sure, but if you ask me if I know more than Garner or Garner was absolutely wrong for letting Biggio hit, I will say no, because I don't know more and he is not wrong.  It's easy to see how he can't use up his backup catcher in that situation.  So we all do this from time to time, but when called on it, we can choose to skate and continue putting forth our whack opinions as if we can do better as a manager or admit right away we don't know squat.  I know nothing, nada, zero, zip compared to Garner.  Heck I know squat compared to Stretch Suba!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 02:09:54 pm by Noe in Austin »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #196 on: June 21, 2007, 02:22:45 pm »
There has been more than *one* or *two* folks who told you that Borkowski was not a bad option.  His performance was bad, no one... absolutely no one disputes that.  But to say that this is a managerial faux pax is trying to fix a problem that does not exist.  Either you understand or you don't.  If you think Garner was wrong, admit it but take the lumps for being a Monday morning quarterback (to borrow a phrase from another sport).  It is really a bad way to evaluate a game's outcome.

If Garner calls for a bunt, it doesn't work and the runner that is being advanced is thrown out at second, it's his fault for not calling for a hit and run instead?  See the problem here?  You don't do that with all good coincience and especially in here and think it's going to fly.  You can veil the reasons you think a hit and run would be better, cite all the stats that say hit and runs work best, cite the use of a hitter who makes good contact is better used to swing away, but it's all after the fact and is based on the bad outcome and not entirely on the bad decision.

You either understand this or you don't.

Of course I understand and agree that Garner knows better than me.  All I was doing was asking why wasn't Qualls used?  I then 1) accepted the answer that Qualls was to be used in the 8th exclusively with Lidge out and then 2) asked the question, "Why did he appeal his suspension?" to those that thought he wasn't an option at all do to his heavy work load over the past couple days, as that didn't make sense to me. 

Seriously, I quite second guessing Garner a long time ago.  That said, I still watch the games and think to myself...I wouldn't of done that.  I then automatically want to know why Garner might have made the choice he did.  I come hear for that answer, or the closest thing to it that I can get.  I may have worded some of my questions/statements incorrectly, but it was not my intent to make you all think that I believe I know more than the manager.

And the closer thing...look back at that post...I admitted that it was probably flawed...but wanted to know why...thanks to W for just answering the question.  It was not a topic that I wanted to discuss to the death.  I just wanted to hear the various reasons why it was not incorporated.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #197 on: June 21, 2007, 02:25:05 pm »
All I was doing was asking why wasn't Qualls used? 

Manager's decision (based on his knowlege of availability). (damn, you're stubborn!)

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #198 on: June 21, 2007, 02:26:42 pm »
Of course I understand and agree that Garner knows better than me.  All I was doing was asking why wasn't Qualls used?  I then 1) accepted the answer that Qualls was to be used in the 8th exclusively with Lidge out and then 2) asked the question, "Why did he appeal his suspension?" to those that thought he wasn't an option at all do to his heavy work load over the past couple days, as that didn't make sense to me. 

Seriously, I quite second guessing Garner a long time ago.  That said, I still watch the games and think to myself...I wouldn't of done that.  I then automatically want to know why Garner might have made the choice he did.  I come hear for that answer, or the closest thing to it that I can get.  I may have worded some of my questions/statements incorrectly, but it was not my intent to make you all think that I believe I know more than the manager.

And the closer thing...look back at that post...I admitted that it was probably flawed...but wanted to know why...thanks to W for just answering the question.  It was not a topic that I wanted to discuss to the death.  I just wanted to hear the various reasons why it was not incorporated.

the getting warmed up thing is not a correct answer, btw.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #199 on: June 21, 2007, 02:29:53 pm »
There has been more than *one* or *two* folks who told you that Borkowski was not a bad option.  His performance was bad, no one... absolutely no one disputes that.  But to say that this is a managerial faux pax is trying to fix a problem that does not exist.  Either you understand or you don't.  If you think Garner was wrong, admit it but take the lumps for being a Monday morning quarterback (to borrow a phrase from another sport).  It is really a bad way to evaluate a game's outcome.

If Garner calls for a bunt, it doesn't work and the runner that is being advanced is thrown out at second, it's his fault for not calling for a hit and run instead?  See the problem here?  You don't do that with all good coincience and especially in here and think it's going to fly.  You can veil the reasons you think a hit and run would be better, cite all the stats that say hit and runs work best, cite the use of a hitter who makes good contact is better used to swing away, but it's all after the fact and is based on the bad outcome and not entirely on the bad decision.

You either understand this or you don't.  I mention how I personally would've used Eric Munson to pinch hit for Biggio earlier today.  I was second guessing the manager for sure, but if you ask me if I know more than Garner or Garner was absolutely wrong for letting Biggio hit, I will say no, because I don't know more and he is not wrong.  It's easy to see how he can't use up his backup catcher in that situation.  So we all do this from time to time, but when called on it, we can choose to skate and continue putting forth our whack opinions as if we can do better as a manager or admit right away we don't know squat.  I know nothing, nada, zero, zip compared to Garner.  Heck I know squat compared to Stretch Suba!

Sorry, hadn't seen your post...worked on the other one off and on between work tasks.  I became a member of this site about 3 years ago...about 3 days into that membership I realized I knew one tenth of what I thought I knew about baseball, if that much, and began reading a whole hell of a lot more than I typed.  My opinion of myself has not changed....no, I take that back, it has...I know more because of this site, but I also still know that I'm at the bottom of the totum pole around here...always will.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #200 on: June 21, 2007, 02:30:16 pm »
Ah, but as I remember it...Epstein had an entirety different theory than what I placed on the table.  He decided he didn't need a bonifide closer at all...period.  In fact, I don't think he even broke camp with a former closer of any kind.  The Sox ended up trying 3-4 different guys in the closer role and they all failed.  Could be wrong, but they eventually acquired Foulke shortly thereafter.



the theory isn't"it doesn't matter who closes games."  The theory is that saves are over-valued (since many good relievers never have the opportunity to save games) and that a good pitcher with no saves might do as good a job as a bad pitcher with closing experience (Mesa, Dempster, etc.).

Another part of the theory is that the time to use your best reliever is when it matters most.   Sometimes, that might not be the 9th.   This is almost never done and I'd like to see it tried.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #201 on: June 21, 2007, 02:35:03 pm »

Another part of the theory is that the time to use your best reliever is when it matters most.   Sometimes, that might not be the 9th.   This is almost never done and I'd like to see it tried.

Ding, ding, ding...that the theory I was trying to ask about.  W gave his reasoning and alot of it made sense to me.  Jim disagrees with at least part of it...not sure why, but he does.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #202 on: June 21, 2007, 02:39:22 pm »
the theory isn't"it doesn't matter who closes games."  The theory is that saves are over-valued (since many good relievers never have the opportunity to save games) and that a good pitcher with no saves might do as good a job as a bad pitcher with closing experience (Mesa, Dempster, etc.).

Another part of the theory is that the time to use your best reliever is when it matters most.   Sometimes, that might not be the 9th.   This is almost never done and I'd like to see it tried.

fuck. did you just wake up and post this w/o reading anything else before it? Boston tried that theory and abandoned it as a failure.

this discussion has gone on infinite loop. why don't you and Kelwein start coaching and try it. the first time your third best pitcher blows a lead in the final inning, you can explain your theory to the lynch mob.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #203 on: June 21, 2007, 02:48:21 pm »
fuck. did you just wake up and post this w/o reading anything else before it? Boston tried that theory and abandoned it as a failure.

this discussion has gone on infinite loop. why don't you and Kelwein start coaching and try it. the first time your third best pitcher blows a lead in the final inning, you can explain your theory to the lynch mob.

It is couch sweet talk for sure, but hardly applicable if you have a reliever corps that came up through the minors learning roles and responsibilities.  It's like asking a starter to pitch every four days because it makes a ton of sense to you but since those arms learned how to pitch under a five man rotation system, you're asking for trouble.

Big trouble.  (*and an unemployment slip too*)

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #204 on: June 21, 2007, 02:52:56 pm »
It is couch sweet talk for sure, but hardly applicable if you have a reliever corps that came up through the minors learning roles and responsibilities.  It's like asking a starter to pitch every four days because it makes a ton of sense to you but since those arms learned how to pitch under a five man rotation system, you're asking for trouble.

Big trouble.  (*and an unemployment slip too*)

sorry, what did you say? i have been banging my head on my desk.

the funniest thing about this to me is: if Qualls or Wheeler had pitched the 7th, who would have pitched the 8th and 9th? if Qualls was unavailable last night, same question. the bottom of the 9th would have rolled around, and the Astros would have had as the best option...(drum roll, please)...Borkowski. he came into the game in a relatively low pressure situation--two on, but one out, a two run lead and the bottom of the order up--but he would have been a better option in the 9th?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 02:55:03 pm by JimR »
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #205 on: June 21, 2007, 02:55:02 pm »
fuck. did you just wake up and post this w/o reading anything else before it? Boston tried that theory and abandoned it as a failure.

this discussion has gone on infinite loop. why don't you and Kelwein start coaching and try it. the first time your third best pitcher blows a lead in the final inning, you can explain your theory to the lynch mob.

Come on Coach, don't tell me you've been swayed by politics too?  I figured you just give'm the old, "WFW!"  Say it ain't so.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #206 on: June 21, 2007, 02:56:00 pm »
Come on Coach, don't tell me you've been swayed by politics too?  I figured you just give'm the old, "WFW!"  Say it ain't so.

i would, but you wouldn't. better start composing the defense of your theory now.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #207 on: June 21, 2007, 03:00:48 pm »
sorry, what did you say? i have been banging my head on my desk.

the funniest thing about this to me is: if Qualls or Wheeler had pitched the 7th, who would have pitched the 8th and 9th? if Qualls was unavailable last night, same question. the bottom of the 9th would have rolled around, and the Astros would have had as the best option...(drum roll, please)...Borkowski. he came into the game in a relatively low pressure situation--two on, but one out, a two run lead and the bottom of the order up--but he would have been a better option in the 9th?

Yes, he's a better option because in the world of second guessing and "I have a better theory than the conventional wisdom" crowd, the outcome is *always* positive.  It is how it works.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #208 on: June 21, 2007, 03:44:35 pm »
I swear to fucking god I hate most Astros fans these days. The endless crybaby second-guessing propagated mostly by the mediaholes on sports radio and the Chron blogs is driving me bonkers. Yeah, it's my fault for letting the army of idiots affect my mood, but goddamn this anti-Garner/anti-Bidge lunacy makes talking about the Astros (outside OWA) rather unenjoyable.


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #209 on: June 21, 2007, 03:51:08 pm »
I swear to fucking god I hate most Astros fans these days. The endless crybaby second-guessing propagated mostly by the mediaholes on sports radio and the Chron blogs is driving me bonkers. Yeah, it's my fault for letting the army of idiots affect my mood, but goddamn this anti-Garner/anti-Bidge lunacy makes talking about the Astros (outside OWA) rather unenjoyable.

i know what you mean. most (all?) of my non-OWA friends who root for the Astros are idiots, too. i try not to talk about it with them.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #210 on: June 21, 2007, 04:01:59 pm »
i know what you mean. most (all?) of my non-OWA friends who root for the Astros are idiots, too. i try not to talk about it with them.

The thing is, it's easy to avoid those forumns (radio and Chron blog).  The hard part is friends you like talking to and share an interest in the Astros.  You have to make them agree not to share opinions.  My father is on the anti-Everett schtick and I can't convince him that Everett, hitthing 7th or 8th is not why this team doesn't score runs.  He is, however, the reason they prevent a significant (as it effects W/L) amount of runs.  Anyway... don't want to re-hash it but he's stubborn and forgotten what a defensive SS provides.  Oh, and his angle now is that Everett is too brittle to be consistant.  This being his second significant injury in all of 5 yrs?  Anyway... I cope by changing subjects to Ensberg, where we can all agree.  Oh, and to make matters worse, my brother is in the "Lidge is a headcase and is done" crowd.  I feel like a stranger in a strange land when I visit my childhood home...
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #211 on: June 21, 2007, 04:04:55 pm »
The thing is, it's easy to avoid those forumns (radio and Chron blog).  The hard part is friends you like talking to and share an interest in the Astros.  You have to make them agree not to share opinions.  My father is on the anti-Everett schtick and I can't convince him that Everett, hitthing 7th or 8th is not why this team doesn't score runs.  He is, however, the reason they prevent a significant (as it effects W/L) amount of runs.  Anyway... don't want to re-hash it but he's stubborn and forgotten what a defensive SS provides.  Oh, and his angle now is that Everett is too brittle to be consistant.  This being his second significant injury in all of 5 yrs?  Anyway... I cope by changing subjects to Ensberg, where we can all agree.  Oh, and to make matters worse, my brother is in the "Lidge is a headcase and is done" crowd.  I feel like a stranger in a strange land when I visit my childhood home...

Like clock work, every time he gets a fastball in the forearm, or runs into Leviathan, bam, down he goes like a rag doll.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #212 on: June 21, 2007, 04:09:55 pm »
The thing is, it's easy to avoid those forumns (radio and Chron blog).  The hard part is friends you like talking to and share an interest in the Astros.  You have to make them agree not to share opinions.  My father is on the anti-Everett schtick and I can't convince him that Everett, hitthing 7th or 8th is not why this team doesn't score runs.  He is, however, the reason they prevent a significant (as it effects W/L) amount of runs.  Anyway... don't want to re-hash it but he's stubborn and forgotten what a defensive SS provides.  Oh, and his angle now is that Everett is too brittle to be consistant.  This being his second significant injury in all of 5 yrs?  Anyway... I cope by changing subjects to Ensberg, where we can all agree.  Oh, and to make matters worse, my brother is in the "Lidge is a headcase and is done" crowd.  I feel like a stranger in a strange land when I visit my childhood home...

I have a brother-in-law who knows baseball... well.  But has a major blind spot for Adam Everett, in terms of not seeing any value, whatsoever, in what he brings to a team.  We had one discussion about AE when I was in Houston visiting my sister.  After one night, he asked me not to talk to him about AE any more because he wanted to keep hating AE and I was making too much sense.  Too funny.

BTW - I listen to Astros Talk as much as I can, but it's gettng harder and harder to find anyone who knows baseball any more.  I don't mean Astros baseball, just baseball in general.  So these guys who host sports talk shows, especially the ones in Houston and Austin know squat about baseball.  So they bring their ignorance to the show and allow the emotions run amok.  One segment I heard went something like this today:

Caller: I hate Phil Garner!  When he choose Borkowski to pitch the seventh, I was already questioning it... but when he left him in to get his head bashed in, I was done with Garner as a manager.  I mean it was a bad decision to begin with, but then he made it worse by staying with him!!!!  And then when he let Loretta hit with bases loaded and he struck out twice, I was mad.  I'm done with him, he needs to go!

Host: Thanks, that is a very good call...

(me: What?!?!? OMG!)

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #213 on: June 21, 2007, 04:12:43 pm »
i would, but you wouldn't. better start composing the defense of your theory now.

Jim do you really think that I think I know more than Garner about the Astros?  Or you about coaching baseball in general?  Again, I want to learn...sometimes I miss where you guys are coming from when you respond...I ask that you cut me some slack.  I know it ain't your fault that I can't follow you but if I don't ask then I won't get the answers I'm looking for either.  I offer my spleen to Spack as a desperate attempt for forgiveness from the locals.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #214 on: June 21, 2007, 04:14:13 pm »
Jim do you really think that I think I know more than Garner about the Astros?  Or you about coaching baseball in general?  Again, I want to learn...sometimes I miss where you guys are coming from when you respond...I ask that you cut me some slack.  I know it ain't your fault that I can't follow you but if I don't ask then I won't get the answers I'm looking for either.  I offer my spleen to Spack as a desperate attempt for forgiveness from the locals.

If this is true, then why did you continue to *defend* your stance even to this page in the thread?  It is a conflict in what you're saying here with what you did for several pages now.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #215 on: June 21, 2007, 04:15:19 pm »
Our society has advanced enough that it's actually possible for many people to survive without being able to think critically. That's not a good thing. Think back to the hilarious leprechaun-in-a-tree video: it's hilarious in that context, but those same thinking "skills" get put to use in matters of genuine significance.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #216 on: June 21, 2007, 04:16:04 pm »
Jim do you really think that I think I know more than Garner about the Astros?  Or you about coaching baseball in general?  Again, I want to learn...sometimes I miss where you guys are coming from when you respond...I ask that you cut me some slack.  I know it ain't your fault that I can't follow you but if I don't ask then I won't get the answers I'm looking for either.  I offer my spleen to Spack as a desperate attempt for forgiveness from the locals.

you do not owe me an apology. i am not/was not questioning your knowledge. i took you to task for second-guessing, and i think Bill James' theory--which Boston gave a shot and rejected--is hare-brained.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #217 on: June 21, 2007, 04:24:59 pm »
Our society has advanced enough that it's actually possible for many people to survive without being able to think critically. That's not a good thing. Think back to the hilarious leprechaun-in-a-tree video: it's hilarious in that context, but those same thinking "skills" get put to use in matters of genuine significance.

And to be honest with you, baseball is about entertainment.  Not to the level of the WWF (imagine Bud Selig being involved in a limo blowing up with him in it... hmmmmm... oh, sorry, where was I?).  But it's entertainment nonetheless, so you actually need for the level of conversation to be light, non-educated and something that anyone can pick up in nano-seconds.  If one person says "Lidge sucks!" basically because he walks a guy, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the whole section said person is sitting in will follow suit.  Same with any sports bar and most assuredly most fansite forums.

And baseball players scratch their heads in wonder at these people because they believe that they understand baseball.  They don't and they're entitled to say a whole bunch of stupid things.  But when they start to claim it's baseball acumen and in some ways very justifiable to scream and holler and force a player out of town (see: Powell, Jay) because in thier own perception, the guy just flat out is a worthless pitcher (and he wasn't, he was actually very good).  No wonder guys like Kent Bottenfield, when he witnessed first hand the treatment all the crowd gave to Powell one night when he induced three groundballs trying to secure outs, only to watch them lazily get past Craig Biggio and Julio Lugo for singles and a blown save/hold, yell to anyone who would listen to him: "Shut up... you don't know baseball if you think he didn't do his job well!"

Eggszactly Kent, but the truth is that thier perception is reality and that goes with the territory of "that's entertainment!".  But would that sell in baseball towns like Chicago, St. Louis, Boston or New York?  Some, but not entirely.  Over 100 years of watching baseball will make one a little smarter on the game, but not entirely take away the entertainment, I paid my ticket and have the right to boo crowd.  It is what it is.

At least we can try here to change it a little.  It is all we can do actually.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #218 on: June 21, 2007, 04:26:31 pm »
BTW - I listen to Astros Talk as much as I can, but it's gettng harder and harder to find anyone who knows baseball any more.  ...

And yet people have access to more opinions, more information, and can watch more games than they ever have before.  There is a fatal flaw in the way that this information is acquired and processed.  I have suspicions about the way it is ultimately used as well.  Bottom line is that venues for discussing sports have exploded.  They need callers, any damn fool will do too.  Especially someone who excites other listeners to call to agree or disagree. The object is not to understand, the object is to participate and have an opinion.  No matter how unqualified the opinion holder is.   After all, the excessive praise their mommies lavished on them just for creating carbon dioxide has to be justified in some way.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #219 on: June 21, 2007, 04:28:20 pm »
The object is not to understand, the object is to participate and have an opinion.  No matter how unqualified the opinion holder is.  

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #220 on: June 21, 2007, 04:28:42 pm »
i know what you mean. most (all?) of my non-OWA friends who root for the Astros are idiots, too. i try not to talk about it with them.

Ditto. My problem is they seek me out (always after a loss, of course) thinking I have all the answers to their idiotic questions. Just today I was asked one, in which I replied "Have you ever been to Cleveland?"

He's still trying to figure that one out.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #221 on: June 21, 2007, 04:34:10 pm »
Ditto. My problem is they seek me out (always after a loss, of course) thinking I have all the answers to their idiotic questions. Just today I was asked one, in which I replied "Have you ever been to Cleveland?"

And for some reason, people just can't quite fathom the concept that sometimes the other guy simply beats you.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #222 on: June 21, 2007, 04:34:14 pm »
And yet people have access to more opinions, more information, and can watch more games than they ever have before.  There is a fatal flaw in the way that this information is acquired and processed.  I have suspicions about the way it is ultimately used as well.  Bottom line is that venues for discussing sports have exploded.  They need callers, any damn fool will do too.  Especially someone who excites other listeners to call to agree or disagree. The object is not to understand, the object is to participate and have an opinion.  No matter how unqualified the opinion holder is.   After all, the excessive praise their mommies lavished on them just for creating carbon dioxide has to be justified in some way.

I think it starts with an informed venue leading the pace.  What I mean by that is suppose that a football show (radio or television) in Central Texas were to be hosted by a slightly informed or even non-informed person.  What would happen to the show or venue?  It would be blasted by the audience as non-essential.  They would ask for a more informed show, even if the host is more of a facilitator and allow for experts to talk more with informed callers.  So the sophistication of the audience can and will dictate how the show will fly or not.

In baseball, it is not driven by the crowd, no one calls out these idiots who pretend to know what they are talking about.  These guys who get on their shows and say "Lidge choked when he gave up Kotsay's homerun!!!!" can do no wrong because the crowd isn't sophisticated enough to call bullshit.  It should be more educated baseball people running these shows, but they fear a lack of audience participation at that point because the crowd, when it comes to baseball around here, wants it's bread and circus.

And we have the media more than willing to give it to them.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #223 on: June 21, 2007, 04:36:53 pm »
And for some reason, people just can't quite fathom the concept that sometimes the other guy simply beats you.

Eggszactly.  Tip the cap is very much a missing staple on most of these forums/fansites/talk shows/blogs.  It is a foriegn concept for sure.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #224 on: June 21, 2007, 04:37:21 pm »
And for some reason, people just can't quite fathom the concept that sometimes the other guy simply beats you.

exactly right. i loathe the idea that if you lose, you choked. i pitched the greatest game of my life, but we lost b/c i could not get one more strike. did i choke? fuck no. the other team just won.

that may be my biggest hot button with idiot fans.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #225 on: June 21, 2007, 04:41:40 pm »
If this is true, then why did you continue to *defend* your stance even to this page in the thread?  It is a conflict in what you're saying here with what you did for several pages now.

I attempted to tell you why in 3 separate PMs.  Many times I don't follow where the response is coming from, which is my fault.  


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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #226 on: June 21, 2007, 04:42:49 pm »
And for some reason, people just can't quite fathom the concept that sometimes the other guy simply beats you.

Yes, I was taught very early in life that despite giving 100%, you can't win 'em all.

One of the modern fans greatest mistakes is not being able to separate fantasy baseball from real baseball. I am a huge fantasy geek, but I know the difference.
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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #227 on: June 21, 2007, 04:44:57 pm »
And for some reason, people just can't quite fathom the concept that sometimes the other guy simply beats you.

Everybody is either a loser or a superhero.  No in between, because it's the in between that requires discernment.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #228 on: June 21, 2007, 04:46:19 pm »
exactly right. i loathe the idea that if you lose, you choked. i pitched the greatest game of my life, but we lost b/c i could not get one more strike. did i choke? fuck no. the other team just won.

that may be my biggest hot button with idiot fans.

People want to believe everything happens for a controllable reason, i.e., so-and-so didn't sack up, the manager didn't pull the right lever, somebody didn't try hard enough, etc. Sometimes what the other guy does is beyond your control.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 04:54:20 pm by Arky Vaughan »

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #229 on: June 21, 2007, 04:52:06 pm »
Everybody is either a loser or a superhero.  No in between, because it's the in between that requires discernment.

Nothing is nuanced.  Because that's French and they're all surrender-monkeys.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #230 on: June 21, 2007, 04:55:19 pm »
Nothing is nuanced.  Because that's French and they're all surrender-monkeys.

So are month long vacations.  Can't have that neither, damned commoonists.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #231 on: June 21, 2007, 04:56:28 pm »
And yet people have access to more opinions, more information, and can watch more games than they ever have before.  There is a fatal flaw in the way that this information is acquired and processed.  I have suspicions about the way it is ultimately used as well.  Bottom line is that venues for discussing sports have exploded.  They need callers, any damn fool will do too.  Especially someone who excites other listeners to call to agree or disagree. The object is not to understand, the object is to participate and have an opinion.  No matter how unqualified the opinion holder is.   After all, the excessive praise their mommies lavished on them just for creating carbon dioxide has to be justified in some way.

Exactly...informative baseball talk...the kind of discussion that might take place between two present managers at a bar after a game, doesn't sell.  Why the fuck do you think the post game interviews aren't telvised in their entirety?  Only the minority want to hear the logic a manager factored into his decision...the majority wants to take their opinion and sell it to anyone that will listen, because they're geniuses.  And guess what, there's more of these uneducated geniuses (wow, that's a peach ain't it?) than there are level-headed reality seekers.  Talk show hosts wil tell you that they know they're full of shit...they'll tell you that half the time they don't even believe the opinion they're yapping on and on about...it's about the ratings...that's the bottom line.

Limey

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #232 on: June 21, 2007, 04:58:15 pm »
Exactly...informative baseball talk...the kind of discussion that might take place between two present managers at a bar after a game, doesn't sell.  Why the fuck do you think the post game interviews aren't telvised in their entirety?  Only the minority want to hear the logic a manager factored into his decision...the majority wants to take their opinion and sell it to anyone that will listen, because they're geniuses.  And guess what, there's more of these uneducated geniuses (wow, that's a peach ain't it?) than there are level-headed reality seekers.  Talk show hosts wil tell you that they know they're full of shit...they'll tell you that half the time they don't even believe the opinion they're yapping on and on about...it's about the ratings...that's the bottom line.

In a word: punditocracy.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #233 on: June 21, 2007, 05:10:11 pm »
I think it starts with an informed venue leading the pace.  What I mean by that is suppose that a football show (radio or television) in Central Texas were to be hosted by a slightly informed or even non-informed person.  What would happen to the show or venue?  It would be blasted by the audience as non-essential.  They would ask for a more informed show, even if the host is more of a facilitator and allow for experts to talk more with informed callers.  So the sophistication of the audience can and will dictate how the show will fly or not.

In baseball, it is not driven by the crowd, no one calls out these idiots who pretend to know what they are talking about.  These guys who get on their shows and say "Lidge choked when he gave up Kotsay's homerun!!!!" can do no wrong because the crowd isn't sophisticated enough to call bullshit.  It should be more educated baseball people running these shows, but they fear a lack of audience participation at that point because the crowd, when it comes to baseball around here, wants it's bread and circus.

And we have the media more than willing to give it to them.

Excellent post that touches on the maddening disconnect between what I see and what gets said about the Astros and Phil Garner in particular. To hear the whiny wise ones tell it, Garner is the WORST MANAGER EVER! Huh? Really? I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion, but the size and venom of the FIRE PHIL GARNER crowd just astounds to me to no end. It makes no sense at all.

Armchair-quarterbacking is a given in the world of sports, but these fuckwits have taken second-guessing to a new low. I don't expect to agree with every move Garner makes, but as long as there's some logic to it, who am I to complain? I don't have access to the information a major-league manager has on a daily basis. At least I'm smart enough to know to know how stupid I am. The chronblogger/talk radio fans don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit the disparity between what they know and what they *think* they know.

pravata

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #234 on: June 21, 2007, 05:14:57 pm »
...At least I'm smart enough to know to know how stupid I am. ...

That's the service that OWA provides.  To explain to each one of us exactly what kind of moron we all are.

Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #235 on: June 21, 2007, 05:20:49 pm »
Exactly...informative baseball talk...the kind of discussion that might take place between two present managers at a bar after a game, doesn't sell.  Why the fuck do you think the post game interviews aren't telvised in their entirety?  Only the minority want to hear the logic a manager factored into his decision...the majority wants to take their opinion and sell it to anyone that will listen, because they're geniuses.  And guess what, there's more of these uneducated geniuses (wow, that's a peach ain't it?) than there are level-headed reality seekers.  Talk show hosts wil tell you that they know they're full of shit...they'll tell you that half the time they don't even believe the opinion they're yapping on and on about...it's about the ratings...that's the bottom line.

You give the media way too much credit for knowing that a presser with the manager after a game isn't supposed to be the same typical blog/talk show level BS.  Yeah, sure, they want to ask the informed questions *wink, wink*.  Yeah, sure they want to *inform* their readers/audience, *wink, wink*.  If anything, it has become more and more a continuance of the circus and no real baseball talk every day, with most managers deciding it is either okay to invite a talk show blowhard to their office to get an arse kicking or snapping back with "manager's decision" at stupid questions.  I know it happens in football as well, where guys like Tuna Parcell have made it an art to shoot down the idiot media people at the press conferences.  But it is increasing in baseball every day and it is either going to be a funny outcome or the press conference will become a thing of the pass.  I say the former more than latter.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #236 on: June 21, 2007, 05:23:28 pm »
That's the service that OWA provides.  To explain to each one of us exactly what kind of moron we all are.

Eggszactly!  And also what beer is the staple of the week too!

JimR

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #237 on: June 21, 2007, 06:28:16 pm »
Excellent post that touches on the maddening disconnect between what I see and what gets said about the Astros and Phil Garner in particular. To hear the whiny wise ones tell it, Garner is the WORST MANAGER EVER! Huh? Really? I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion, but the size and venom of the FIRE PHIL GARNER crowd just astounds to me to no end. It makes no sense at all.

Armchair-quarterbacking is a given in the world of sports, but these fuckwits have taken second-guessing to a new low. I don't expect to agree with every move Garner makes, but as long as there's some logic to it, who am I to complain? I don't have access to the information a major-league manager has on a daily basis. At least I'm smart enough to know to know how stupid I am. The chronblogger/talk radio fans don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit the disparity between what they know and what they *think* they know.

and i think it is more than that, although i agree with you totally. it is glorification of the Opinion, no matter how ill-formed or ignorant it may be.
Often wrong, but never in doubt.

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #238 on: June 21, 2007, 06:43:43 pm »
and i think it is more than that, although i agree with you totally. it is glorification of the Opinion, no matter how ill-formed or ignorant it may be.


It's the need for Everyfan to feel like he's part of the game.

Noe

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Re: The AE Fallacy
« Reply #239 on: June 22, 2007, 12:16:08 am »
It's the need for Everyfan to feel like he's part of the game.

Agreed.