Biggio

[EmirOfSchmoe]

Biggio's skills have declined that is a fact, but in my opinion he is Mr. Astro.  He did alot of things for the community and the team by taking less money than offered in FA to stay with the Astros.  To tell you the truth, he is still better than alot of middle infielders overall and he was one hell of a player in his day and he is not embarassing himself the way Willie Mays did at the end of his career.   Would Loretta be a better option, yes he would and I believe we will see him alot more in the 2nd half.

We all roast Clemens and Pettite for jumping ship but fail to realize that there are some players that show some loyalty to their team.  I believe Biggio is one of those people.  Baseball is a business and free agency has made it that way.  Biggio will be the  first Astro to wear an Astros cap when inducted into the Hall of Fame and I think that deserves a little leeway.

Thats what I think

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Biggio will be the  first Astro to wear an Astros cap when inducted into the Hall of Fame and I think that deserves a little leeway.

Or maybe Bagwell makes Biggio the 2nd.

[Limey]

I know he's not a super superstar, but I haven't heard of teams doing anything special to honor Biggio on what is almost certainly his last season in the game.  Other players in the same circumstances get some sort of appreciation when on the road from teams who won't see him again.

Is this not so with Bidge because he's a minor star, or because he hasn't made his last road trip anywhere yet?

[Mr. Happy]

I know he's not a super superstar, but I haven't heard of teams doing anything special to honor Biggio on what is almost certainly his last season in the game.  Other players in the same circumstances get some sort of appreciation when on the road from teams who won't see him again.

Is this not so with Bidge because he's a minor star, or because he hasn't made his last road trip anywhere yet?

I think that it is a tad too early. And I don't think that Biggio (unlike DQ with the Yankmes a few years ago) has indicated that this is his last campaign, although it seems to most certainly be, absent some injury prior to attaining hit no. 3,000.

[Alkie]

Or maybe Bagwell makes Biggio the 2nd.

What I always hoped would happen, should they both make it, is that the voters would intentionally vote them in the same year.  I'm going for both in either case, but it sure would be cool to just have an Astros Weekend in Cooperstown.

Who's comin' with?

[ValpoCory]

Everyone seems to think Biggio's playing time will take a precipitous drop as soon as he hits #3000. 

I think he wants to pass George Brett in the all-time doubles list too much to tell Garner to bench him.  He may play less, but I don't think he'll go 3 or 4 games between starts.

[toddthebod]

I will absolutely be there.  I have never gone to Cooperstown because I have been waiting for the first member of the Astros to be inducted.   Does anyone know who would be going onto the ballot with Bagwell?

[Trey]

I will absolutely be there.  I have never gone to Cooperstown because I have been waiting for the first member of the Astros to be inducted.   Does anyone know who would be going onto the ballot with Bagwell?

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/future_elections.htm

Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Mike Hampton, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Hideo Nomo, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Troy Percival, Benito Santiago, Sammy Sosa, Ugueth Urbina, Larry Walker

List obviously needs updating as Sosa is playing again.  Anyone other than Bagwell on that list likely to get elected.  I would have said Raffy before the whole shakedown of a couple of years ago.

[Froback]

Based on that list here are the candidates as I see it:

2008: Tim Raines will get talked about but probably will never make it
2009: Rickey Henderson should make it 1st ballot, Mark Grace and David Cone will be talked about but probably will not make it
2010: Roberto Alomar was Biggio's main contemporary will make it eventually (probably), Fred McGriff will have alot of talk around him and might make it eventually
2011: Jeff Bagwell and Rafael Palmeiro are the only real potentials this year, although Larry Walker might get some talk.  I strongly believe Bagwell will eventually get in, and given how weak the classes leading up to 2011 are, he might even do it in 2011, but I doubt it.  His main issue is he will be compared to McGriff, who has less of a resume.

[Bench]

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/future_elections.htm

List obviously needs updating as Sosa is playing again.  Anyone other than Bagwell on that list likely to get elected.  I would have said Raffy before the whole shakedown of a couple of years ago.

Will Urbina be out of jail by then?

[Limey]

What I always hoped would happen, should they both make it, is that the voters would intentionally vote them in the same year.  I'm going for both in either case, but it sure would be cool to just have an Astros Weekend in Cooperstown.

Who's comin' with?

I think this is exactly what will happen.  Bagwell will get passed over on his first ballot, but when Biggio comes up a year (most likely) later, his stats will get him in easily on comparables.  Baggy will go too because they're a sentimental bunch, because the vast majority of Biggio's runs came courtesy of Bagwell's bat, and because when they look at Biggio they will revisit Bagwell in a new, and much more positive, light.

I think it would be entirely appropriate, and a bona fide - ok for men to cry day - when they do.

[ValpoCory]

2009: Rickey Henderson should make it 1st ballot,

Rickey thinks Rickey can still play, so who knows about 2009.

[ValpoCory]

Bagwell will get passed over on his first ballot, but when Biggio comes up a year (most likely) later,

Biggio will first be on the ballot in January 2013, assuming he retires in October 2007.  Bagwell is on the January 2011 ballot.

[MusicMan]

Mrs. MM has already made it clear that we will be in Cooperstown for Biggio's induction, come hell or high water.

[Limey]

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/future_elections.htm

Cool.  Maybe Baggy will smash a dinger off Nomo for old time's sake.

[Limey]

Biggio will first be on the ballot in January 2013, assuming he retires in October 2007.  Bagwell is on the January 2011 ballot.

Thanks.

Although there's a "risk" of Baggy making it on the second go around, I still think there's enough idiocy around (the Chronicle writers all get a vote!!!!) to keep him out for another year.

I go back to a statement I saw Gammons make on BBTN a few years back.  He was asked about Frank Thomas, and said he was a sure-fire HoFer because he's got all the requisite qualifications.  When asked immediately afterwards about Bagwell - the obvious folow-up question because everyone knows that Bagwell is bizarrely identical to Thomas in everything except skin colour - Gammons said that he won't have achieved enough by the end of his career to make it.  What a tool!

[Fredia]

Thanks.

Although there's a "risk" of Baggy making it on the second go around, I still think there's enough idiocy around (the Chronicle writers all get a vote!!!!) to keep him out for another year.

I go back to a statement I saw Gammons make on BBTN a few years back.  He was asked about Frank Thomas, and said he was a sure-fire HoFer because he's got all the requisite qualifications.  When asked immediately afterwards about Bagwell - the obvious folow-up question because everyone knows that Bagwell is bizarrely identical to Thomas in everything except skin colour - Gammons said that he won't have achieved enough by the end of his career to make it.  What a tool!

be nice if the voters actually had to base it on  actual stats not how they feel about someone.

[ValpoCory]

be nice if the voters actually had to base it on  actual stats not how they feel about someone.

Of course, basing it on actual stats might land Edgar Renteria in the Hall of Fame. 

[Limey]

Of course, basing it on actual stats might land Edgar Renteria in the Hall of Fame. 

I once had a gazillion-post debate with Jim on how, based on stats, Chris Holt was a entirely serviceable major league pitcher.  I could not have been more wrong, but there were stats that suggested otherwise to people like me who were looking at the numbers, not the player and his actual performance.

[Mr. Happy]

I once had a gazillion-post debate with Jim on how, based on stats, Chris Holt was a entirely serviceable major league pitcher.  I could not have been more wrong, but there were stats that suggested otherwise to people like me who were looking at the numbers, not the player and his actual performance.

I remember that epic battle. Poor Holt, he pitched good enough to lose.

[Amy]

What I always hoped would happen, should they both make it, is that the voters would intentionally vote them in the same year.  I'm going for both in either case, but it sure would be cool to just have an Astros Weekend in Cooperstown.

Who's comin' with?

I'll be there for sure!  My dream is that Bidge and Bags make it in together.  I think there's a decent chance that will happen.  I sure as hell hope Barroid Bonds decides to play one more year because I don't want him on the same ballot to overshadow our guys.

[Limey]

I remember that epic battle. Poor Holt, he pitched good enough to lose.

Mrs Limey worked with Holt's brother-in-law.  Said that Holt didn't really care whether he was in baseball or not.  That was born out by his sackless attitude on the mound.

[ValpoCory]

I'll be there for sure!  My dream is that Bidge and Bags make it in together.  I think there's a decent chance that will happen.  I sure as hell hope Barroid Bonds decides to play one more year because I don't want him on the same ballot to overshadow our guys.

Agreed.  Or rather, that 26% of voters out there choose to put a 1 year ban on him.

[homer]

Mrs Limey worked with Holt's brother-in-law.  Said that Holt didn't really care whether he was in baseball or not.  That was born out by his sackless attitude on the mound.

I guess he didn't see himself as a winner.

[Mr. Happy]

I guess he didn't see himself as a winner.

LMAO, you sly dog. Where's Sporadic? On second thought, cancel that first thought.

[toddthebod]

Based on that list here are the candidates as I see it:

2008: Tim Raines will get talked about but probably will never make it
2009: Rickey Henderson should make it 1st ballot, Mark Grace and David Cone will be talked about but probably will not make it
2010: Roberto Alomar was Biggio's main contemporary will make it eventually (probably), Fred McGriff will have alot of talk around him and might make it eventually
2011: Jeff Bagwell and Rafael Palmeiro are the only real potentials this year, although Larry Walker might get some talk.  I strongly believe Bagwell will eventually get in, and given how weak the classes leading up to 2011 are, he might even do it in 2011, but I doubt it.  His main issue is he will be compared to McGriff, who has less of a resume.

2010 has some pretty good hitters:  Alomar, Gallaraga, Larkin, Martinez, and McGriff.

These are all players who will receive some consideration for HOF induction.  Of them, probably only Alomar and McGriff have the career numbers to get in, but these were all tremendous ballplayers.

[Fredia]

I remember that epic battle. Poor Holt, he pitched good enough to lose.

i had the privledge to be in the audience when he was hit in the head with a ball and alos the privledge of being there when the alarm went off. what was scary people did not move from their seats. some pitchers just seem to have that black cloud over them

[utastro]

I sure as hell hope Barroid Bonds decides to play one more year because I don't want him on the same ballot to overshadow our guys.

The Killer B's with the Queen B.

[Dobro]

Who in the hell said this is Biggio's last year?

[Limey]

Who in the hell said this is Biggio's last year?

I can't see the Astros bringing him back, given the roster problems his presence causes this year.  He's reasonably (but not wildly) expensive too.  It would be hard to see him playing elsewhere, but if he is going to play on I doubt it will be with the Astros.

[JaneDoe]

Who in the hell said this is Biggio's last year?

Burke, straight from St. Biggio's Hell. 

[Andyzipp]

I can't see the Astros bringing him back, given the roster problems his presence causes this year.  He's reasonably (but not wildly) expensive too.  It would be hard to see him playing elsewhere, but if he is going to play on I doubt it will be with the Astros.

It would take something monumental (read: Drayton selling the team) for Biggio not to have a roster spot as long as he wants one.

[JimR]

Burke, straight from St. Biggio's Hell. 

is Burke your (secret) son? he has done nothing to warrant special attention from the Astros.

[JaneDoe]

is Burke your (secret) son? he has done nothing to warrant special attention from the Astros.

Nope.  Just making a joke.  Not pro-Burke, not anti-Burke.  See the post I responded to said, " Who in the hell said this is Biggio's last year."  He has been called St. Biggio before, and Burke's whining about being sent to RR was like he was being sent to "hell".  Just because I post some stuff about Burke, does not mean I think he deserves anything from the Astros.  Every post has been rather neutral, I have neither criticized or lauded the move.  I did not say nor imply that he warranted special attention from the Astros.  I just happened to be done with finals and was home to hear the announcement and the interview on the radio, and figured that since most of you guys were at work then, you may not have been able to listen. 

[Limey]

It would take something monumental (read: Drayton selling the team) for Biggio not to have a roster spot as long as he wants one.

...but not as a starter and he's no defensive replacement.  So do you think Biggio can help the team solely as pinch hitter?  Bonus round:  Do you think Biggio would accept such a role?

[Dobro]

...but not as a starter and he's no defensive replacement.  So do you think Biggio can help the team solely as pinch hitter?  Bonus round:  Do you think Biggio would accept such a role?

"Biggio will be the Astros second baseman until he's not the Astros second baseman anymore."

                                                                                   -Yogi Berra

[Andyzipp]

...but not as a starter and he's no defensive replacement.  So do you think Biggio can help the team solely as pinch hitter?  Bonus round:  Do you think Biggio would accept such a role?

You're thinking too much.  As long as Biggio wants to be in Houston, Drayton is going to keep giving him contracts.

You are allowed to think it's a stupid move.  You are allowed to think he has no role, and is retarding the growth of Chris Burke, Brooks Conrad, Russ Johnson, Willie Mays Hayes and or Tanner Boyle.  You are allowed to think that without Copeland, Sting would be doing Shakespear in the Park whilst slinging chips (because he's still not skilled enough to batter and fry the fish.) But none of that matters. 

Have you seen the statue?

[Limey]

Have you seen the statue?

Looks nothing like him.  And who's that other bloke?

ETA:  Did they commission those statues from the bloke who makes the bobbleheads and/or is a courtroom artist?

[mrpink]

I go back to a statement I saw Gammons make on BBTN a few years back.  He was asked about Frank Thomas, and said he was a sure-fire HoFer because he's got all the requisite qualifications.  When asked immediately afterwards about Bagwell - the obvious folow-up question because everyone knows that Bagwell is bizarrely identical to Thomas in everything except skin colour - Gammons said that he won't have achieved enough by the end of his career to make it.  What a tool!

That's strange, because even though I'm not a big fan of Gammons, I always thought he was a pretty big Bagwell promoter.  Kinda figured it was the Red Sox connection.  I guess he got over it towards the end of his (Bagwell's) career.

[Limey]

That's strange, because even though I'm not a big fan of Gammons, I always thought he was a pretty big Bagwell promoter.  Kinda figured it was the Red Sox connection.  I guess he got over it towards the end of his (Bagwell's) career.

This goes back a few years to pre-shoulder knack Bagwell.  I think it's more a case of Gammons' verbal diarrhoea than a considered opinion on Bagwell, but it still struck me as the wrong answer (given his opinion on Thomas) to an amazingly simple question.

[ducktaper]

I saw Gammons spew that, and ever since then, that is what I have used to as ammo with anyone arguing Gammons-fueled ideas with me.  The stats were IDENTICAL statistically back then when he contridicted himself....

[Limey]

I saw Gammons spew that, and ever since then, that is what I have used to as ammo with anyone arguing Gammons-fueled ideas with me.  The stats were IDENTICAL statistically back then when he contridicted himself....

Amazing.  Not only did we watch the same thing and have the same opinion...your avatar is like looking in a mirror!

[ducktaper]

I'm sorry to hear that.  I recommend rest and some tetrahydrozoline.

[Spider Pellini]

Amazing.  Not only did we watch the same thing and have the same opinion...your avatar is like looking in a mirror!

I'm thinking you're giving youself a leeetle too much credit there...

[Mr. Happy]

You're thinking too much.  As long as Biggio wants to be in Houston, Drayton is going to keep giving him contracts.

You are allowed to think it's a stupid move.  You are allowed to think he has no role, and is retarding the growth of Chris Burke, Brooks Conrad, Russ Johnson, Willie Mays Hayes and or Tanner Boyle.  You are allowed to think that without Copeland, Sting would be doing Shakespear in the Park whilst slinging chips (because he's still not skilled enough to batter and fry the fish.) But none of that matters. 

I think that Biggio will retire gracefully.

[mihoba]

I saw Gammons spew that, and ever since then, that is what I have used to as ammo with anyone arguing Gammons-fueled ideas with me.  The stats were IDENTICAL statistically back then when he contridicted himself....

Well, except for the runs scored, stolen bases, and actually playing a position on the field, and playing it well.

[JimR]

I think that Biggio will retire gracefully.

hope so, but i'll be surprised. he has earned the right to go out however he chooses...even like Mays did.

[Limey]

Well, except for the runs scored, stolen bases, and actually playing a position on the field, and playing it well.

Right.  BA, SLG and OPS were identical almost to a 1/100th of a point, but Bagwell's "intangibles", like catching a ball and running around the bases were far superior at the time.

Basically, and I'm not bursting anyone's bubble here, the media is for shit.  When they talk about a subject about which you have some knowledge, they are typically way off the mark or just flat out insane.  It's not a huge leap, therefore, to extrapolate that to include everything else they talk about.

[Randy Watson]

Right.  BA, SLG and OPS were identical almost to a 1/100th of a point, but Bagwell's "intangibles", like catching a ball and running around the bases were far superior at the time.

Basically, and I'm not bursting anyone's bubble here, the media is for shit.  When they talk about a subject about which you have some knowledge, they are typically way off the mark or just flat out insane.  It's not a huge leap, therefore, to extrapolate that to include everything else they talk about.

Bagwell might be the best baserunner of our generation.  And he was a hell of a first baseman.  Gammons is a tool.

[Bench]

Right.  BA, SLG and OPS were identical almost to a 1/100th of a point . . .

Birthdays too.

[Arky Vaughan]

2010 has some pretty good hitters:  Alomar, Gallaraga, Larkin, Martinez, and McGriff.

These are all players who will receive some consideration for HOF induction.  Of them, probably only Alomar and McGriff have the career numbers to get in, but these were all tremendous ballplayers.

Barry Larkin is a better candidate than Alomar or McGriff.

[Reuben]

Barry Larkin is a better candidate than Alomar or McGriff.

Yes, yes, yes. I hope the writers remember this in three years, to me he really belongs; Alomar probably does too despite the sharp decline, but it's been awhile since I looked at his numbers, and he seemed like a guy who Sportscenter made into a better fielder than he really was.

[Bench]

Yes, yes, yes. I hope the writers remember this in three years, to me he really belongs; Alomar probably does too despite the sharp decline, but it's been awhile since I looked at his numbers, and he seemed like a guy who Sportscenter made into a better fielder than he really was.

The spitting incident will haunt Alomar.

[jaklewein]

Yes, yes, yes. I hope the writers remember this in three years, to me he really belongs; Alomar probably does too despite the sharp decline, but it's been awhile since I looked at his numbers, and he seemed like a guy who Sportscenter made into a better fielder than he really was.

You really think so?  That guy had range out the wahhzoooo, and could turn a DP. 

I do however agree with Bench, but not to the point that it will keep him out of the HOF.

[HudsonHawk]

The spitting incident will haunt Alomar.

What will hurt him more is that his career didn't decline, it fell off a cliff at the relatively young age of 34.

[Reuben]

You really think so?  That guy had range out the wahhzoooo, and could turn a DP. 

I do however agree with Bench, but not to the point that it will keep him out of the HOF.

I just mean he seemed to be one of those "highlight play" guys, always diving and flipping (esp. to Vizquel, who certainly helps), as opposed to a "makes it look easy," Adam Everett-type guy...but I am certainly no expert, and I certainly did not see him play often enough to make a definitive call. In other words, I'm basically talking straight out of my ass, and yeah, I don't like the guy but he probably will get in. His prime-year numbers were terrific, and he hit well in the playoffs.

[geezerdonk]

Gammons. What a tool!

A real baseball genius. On the radio today he mentioned that Rudy Hamarilo might be helping Sosa's comeback.