Author Topic: the Reds should be good  (Read 4530 times)

WulawHorn

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the Reds should be good
« on: May 10, 2007, 09:53:18 am »
and instead they freaking suck.

Good line up, good starting pitching 1-4 with Harang, Arroyo, Belisle and I'm blanking- but Monday's pitcher with an era around 3 and no wins.

Their bulpen blows chunks and they are really weak on defense in the corners with a decrepit griffey- slow and indifferent Dunn- Error carnacion and Hattiesburg.

But the thing is Hamilton can cover some ground in CF.  Their SS made some dazzling plays so far in the series- they seem to be decent at 2b.

Really- they are just a good bullpen away from being pretty good. If they were not in our division I'd think they could be a definite trading partner.  That bullpen though is BRUTAL.

Am I missing something besides the bully doing them in?  Why do they suck so much?


Limey

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 09:55:26 am »
They are the 2000 Astros.  Monster line up, shitty defense and an inflammatory bullpen.

I think we all remember how that turned out...
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Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 09:58:38 am »
They are the 2000 Astros.  Monster line up, shitty defense and an inflammatory bullpen.

I think we all remember how that turned out...

And a stadium that is unforgiving if you suck on defense.

WulawHorn

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 10:00:11 am »
I'm no defensive expert- that's part of why I was asking. They are shit at the corners- but all the way up the middle they look pretty solid to me- thoughts?


Limey

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 10:07:42 am »
I'm no defensive expert- that's part of why I was asking. They are shit at the corners- but all the way up the middle they look pretty solid to me- thoughts?

They have errors out the ying-yang.
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Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 10:11:44 am »
I'm no defensive expert- that's part of why I was asking. They are shit at the corners- but all the way up the middle they look pretty solid to me- thoughts?

Walks, errors and a shive for a bullpen is a recipe for doing badly at Tammy Faye Park.  Minute Maid was supposed to be a ten run field (remember that).  Why hasn't the doomsday prognostication happened for our home field?

Answer that and you'll answer you own question.

Astroholic

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 10:18:04 am »
Walks, errors and a shive for a bullpen is a recipe for doing badly at Tammy Faye Park.  Minute Maid was supposed to be a ten run field (remember that).  Why hasn't the doomsday prognostication happened for our home field?

Answer that and you'll answer you own question.

After you say "ten run" you need to follow it up with something like "Houston we have a problem".

Alkie

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 10:20:51 am »
"Houston we have a problem".

Wait.  I like the way that sounds.  Houston.  We have.  A problem.  Man, it just rolls off the tongue.  It just sounds right.

I could hear it at least four, maybe five billion more times before it gets old.

pravata

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2007, 10:26:35 am »
Walks, errors and a shive for a bullpen is a recipe for doing badly at Tammy Faye Park.  Minute Maid was supposed to be a ten run field (remember that).  Why hasn't the doomsday prognostication happened for our home field?

Answer that and you'll answer you own question.

Pitchers.  It has something to do with the pitchers...

Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2007, 10:27:50 am »
Pitchers.  It has something to do with the pitchers...

And dead bodies... knowing where they're buried....

Gizzmonic

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2007, 10:28:11 am »
And the huge center field.  Some batters (Jeff Kent for example) have gone so far to say that MMPUS is a pitcher's park disguised as a hitter's park.

Pitchers.  It has something to do with the pitchers...
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Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2007, 10:29:21 am »
And the huge center field.  Some batters (Jeff Kent for example) have gone so far to say that MMPUS is a pitcher's park disguised as a hitter's park.


The difference betwix a Jose Lima and a Roy Oswalt, not so much in talent (although there is a huge difference) but in attitude is what makes a park work for ya or agin' ya.

Lefty

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2007, 10:33:41 am »
The difference betwix a Jose Lima and a Roy Oswalt, not so much in talent (although there is a huge difference) but in attitude is what makes a park work for ya or agin' ya.

"The dimensions work out pretty well to the way I throw.  The ball carries good here to right-center. The way I pitch, I try to keep it to the center of the field. It works out pretty well." -- Oswalt, on why he's had success at Great American

That's a recipe for success at another certain ballpark, and many others as well.
You may ask yourself, "How do I work this?"

WulawHorn

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2007, 10:47:07 am »
Berkman is adamant about saying that MMP is not a good hitting park at all for LF. I've noted that many a time myself- not only are the dimensions a lot shorter in left but the jet stream seems to take the ball out that way better.

Also-it's a much more hitter friendly park- imo when they pop the top.


Bench

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2007, 10:53:24 am »
Berkman is adamant about saying that MMP is not a good hitting park at all for LF.

I am confused. Left field at MMPUS is not hitter-friendly? I find that odd coming from the person who has perfected the left handed swing to lob an outside pitch into the Crawford boxes.
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WulawHorn

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2007, 11:00:55 am »
I'm sorry- I wrote LF but I meant Left Hander's (LH)- my bad.

He's said- mulitple times- to look up the numbers- MMP depresses numbers for LH (not LF) hitters.

Sorry for the typo.


Gizzmonic

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2007, 11:01:06 am »
I am confused. Left field at MMPUS is not hitter-friendly? I find that odd coming from the person who has perfected the left handed swing to lob an outside pitch into the Crawford boxes.

I think he means LH hitters don't fare well at MMPUS.  Berkman is so good he's made that adjustment, but LH hitters can't be successful going with their normal approach hitting to center or right-center-they must be dead pull hitters or excellent off-field hitters.
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Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2007, 11:01:40 am »
I am confused. Left field at MMPUS is not hitter-friendly? I find that odd coming from the person who has perfected the left handed swing to lob an outside pitch into the Crawford boxes.

What is missing for any conversation about a hitters park is how you decide to pitch.  Chris Holt had a terrible time adjusting to Enron Field because he never adjusted his approach from the Astrodome.  Holt nibbled the corners on the outside, never pitched inside and thus he walked a fair amount of guys.  In the dome, the chances of a big inning happening were slimmer for Holt because a fly ball went to die in the dome.  At Enron, it's a three run cheap homerun.  So the best thing to do is not walk anyone, which means you come inside more and quit nibbling at corners.  But to come inside means you have to pitch to contact and trust your fielders to make the outs for you.

Last night, Woody Williams basically pitched to contact and allow his fielders to work for him.  He had success at Tammy Faye, just like he has had success at Minute Maid too.  Don't be afraid to pitch to contact unless you've got ungodly stuff and can just dominate the other team with your stuff.  Few and far in-between any of those kinds of pitchers.  So the Reds problem is one of adjustment for pitchers.  Don't walk anyone because that could mean lots of bad things at Tammy Faye.  And if you pitch inside, trust your fielders to make the play.  But are they making the play?  I dunno exactly, but haven't they had this same sceanrio before with Encarnacion and revolving door at shortstop?  Looks like they need to pay attention to that pronto because if the left side is shaky, pitchers may not want to come inside to right handers any more.  And you're back to square one.

And of course, this goes for the bullpen as well.

pravata

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2007, 11:14:05 am »
Reds just sent Encarnacion to the minors for being a hamfisted slug.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/17206227.htm

WulawHorn

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2007, 11:16:45 am »
What is missing for any conversation about a hitters park is how you decide to pitch.  Chris Holt had a terrible time adjusting to Enron Field because he never adjusted his approach from the Astrodome.  Holt nibbled the corners on the outside, never pitched inside and thus he walked a fair amount of guys.  In the dome, the chances of a big inning happening were slimmer for Holt because a fly ball went to die in the dome.  At Enron, it's a three run cheap homerun.  So the best thing to do is not walk anyone, which means you come inside more and quit nibbling at corners.  But to come inside means you have to pitch to contact and trust your fielders to make the outs for you.

Last night, Woody Williams basically pitched to contact and allow his fielders to work for him.  He had success at Tammy Faye, just like he has had success at Minute Maid too.  Don't be afraid to pitch to contact unless you've got ungodly stuff and can just dominate the other team with your stuff.  Few and far in-between any of those kinds of pitchers.  So the Reds problem is one of adjustment for pitchers.  Don't walk anyone because that could mean lots of bad things at Tammy Faye.  And if you pitch inside, trust your fielders to make the play.  But are they making the play?  I dunno exactly, but haven't they had this same sceanrio before with Encarnacion and revolving door at shortstop?  Looks like they need to pay attention to that pronto because if the left side is shaky, pitchers may not want to come inside to right handers any more.  And you're back to square one.

And of course, this goes for the bullpen as well.

Encarnacion has been an error machine through his time there. He makes some great plays, but he can't throw accurately and boots routine plays often (that's the knock anyway).
They've gotten outstanding defensive play from their SS this series- don't know if that is consistent or a mirage.  2b and CF look ok to me. Ross behind the dish seems to know what he is doing.  JR is terrible in RF.  Dunn is indifferent toward D in left.


Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2007, 11:25:42 am »
Reds just sent Encarnacion to the minors for being a hamfisted slug.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/17206227.htm

I didn't catch (pun intended) his errors, only the last part of the game last night.  But Encarnacion had the same problem last year.  "Manos de Piedra" was the first thought I had when I saw the replays.

Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2007, 11:29:12 am »
Encarnacion has been an error machine through his time there. He makes some great plays, but he can't throw accurately and boots routine plays often (that's the knock anyway).
They've gotten outstanding defensive play from their SS this series- don't know if that is consistent or a mirage.  2b and CF look ok to me. Ross behind the dish seems to know what he is doing.  JR is terrible in RF.  Dunn is indifferent toward D in left.



I don't know what to think about Gonzales.  He was once a prime defensive player at short, but flashy doesn't always mean good or great.  (see: Ordonez, Rey-rey).  Gonzales has impressed, but is he a solution long-term?  I dunno, time will tell.  I just know that they have not settled that critical position as of yet (what is this, their third year at Tammy Faye and this is their third shortshop?).  You pitch inside, then get some guys to catch the ball at short and make all the routine and semi-routine plays... a lot.

JimR

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2007, 11:32:09 am »
Reds just sent Encarnacion to the minors for being a hamfisted slug.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/17206227.htm

Ensberg anyone?
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Amy

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 11:35:49 am »
I don't know what to think about Gonzales.  He was once a prime defensive player at short, but flashy doesn't always mean good or great.  (see: Ordonez, Rey-rey).  Gonzales has impressed, but is he a solution long-term?  I dunno, time will tell.  I just know that they have not settled that critical position as of yet (what is this, their third year at Tammy Faye and this is their third shortshop?).  You pitch inside, then get some guys to catch the ball at short and make all the routine and semi-routine plays... a lot.

What I recall is that one reason the Reds traded Lopez is that they wanted better defense at short.  Hence the Gonzalez signing.  They gave Gonzalez a three year deal, so they probably don't view him as especially temporary.  He's been hitting surprisingly well so far this year, but given his career numbers I don't expect that to continue.  Historically, he's all glove, no hit.

Noe

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2007, 11:44:23 am »
What I recall is that one reason the Reds traded Lopez is that they wanted better defense at short.  Hence the Gonzalez signing.  They gave Gonzalez a three year deal, so they probably don't view him as especially temporary.  He's been hitting surprisingly well so far this year, but given his career numbers I don't expect that to continue.  Historically, he's all glove, no hit.

I understand his reputation well.  He was that at Florida and he'll regress to what he once was.  But once again, don't mistake flashy for good or great.  I haven't see it yet and it's not like they have a Khalil Greene waiting in the wings either.  So Gonzales might be a good as it gets.  That should go very long way towards helping the team bring down the 9-8 games at Tammy Faye.  They're in there third year at Tammy Faye, they should know by now what they need to do to maximize the field as an advantage for themselves both offensively and defensively.

kevinG

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 12:05:15 pm »
Thought I'd check ESPN's park factors for MMPUS' reputation as a hitter's park... the furthest back they go is 2001, when MMPUS was the most pitcher-friendly park in the majors. The most hitter-friendly they've been is the ninth-most hitter friendly park. This year, they're shaping up on the pitcher-friendly side, at 3rd-friendliest.

Obviously, the factors vary wildly depending on both who's pitching and who's hitting, but MMPUS' average is around the middle, or even slightly pitcher-friendly. Analysts just look at the Crawfords and say "OH! Hitter friendly!"

Anyway, thought it was interesting to look at where MMPUS has ranked.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
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Astroholic

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 01:10:07 pm »
Wait.  I like the way that sounds.  Houston.  We have.  A problem.  Man, it just rolls off the tongue.  It just sounds right.

I could hear it at least four, maybe five billion more times before it gets old.

And I am quite sure you will.

TangerineDream

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 06:32:09 pm »
Ensberg anyone?

Sounds like Freel will be on third, at least until he ruptures his spleen diving into the stands for those foul balls; maybe then they'll be ready to deal for Mo.

Col. Sphinx Drummond

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Re: the Reds should be good
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2007, 07:52:31 pm »
I didn't catch (pun intended) his errors, only the last part of the game last night.  But Encarnacion had the same problem last year.  "Manos de Piedra" was the first thought I had when I saw the replays.

So are you saying he plays 3rd like Roberto Duran?
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