Pence v. Cards

[JimR]

painful to watch at times

[Mr. Happy]

painful to watch at times

Agreed. But there's a gumption to this kid that I like to watch. Yeah he's overmatched at the plate at times. Yeah he's had some scary jumps/reads on balls in CF. But he just plays the game with wreckless abandon. I have a good feeling about the kid. There are gonna be bumps along the way, and an old fart like me will probably bitch a bit (until Coach disabuses me totally of that habit, and he's on his way), but I'm glad that Pence is on the club.

[TangerineDream]

Agreed. But there's a gumption to this kid that I like to watch. Yeah he's overmatched at the plate at times. Yeah he's had some scary jumps/reads on balls in CF. But he just plays the game with wreckless abandon.

I can't see how youthful enthusiasm and playing with reckless abandon could be a bad thing for this team at this point. A little inspiration might go a long way.

[JimR]

I can't see how youthful enthusiasm and playing with reckless abandon could be a bad thing for this team at this point. A little inspiration might go a long way.

bullshit.

[pravata]

I can't see how youthful enthusiasm and playing with reckless abandon could be a bad thing for this team at this point. A little inspiration might go a long way.

Facing Wainwright's curve, painful.  Overrunning a bloop single into a bloop double, painful.  Getting thrown out trying to steal 3rd with one out late in the game and down by one, painful.  Panicing and running around with your hair on fire is the last thing this team needs. 

[JimR]

Facing Wainwright's curve, painful.  Overrunning a bloop single into a bloop double, painful.  Getting thrown out trying to steal 3rd with one out late in the game and down by one, painful.  Panicing and running around with your hair on fire is the last thing this team needs. 

and the bloop single should have been caught. he totally froze and did not move for several seconds. the only explanation i could come up with was he could not see it in the twilight. that happens, but i do not know how dark it was then.

this hero worship of him has got to stop. "reckless abandon" is NEVER the way to play baseball. fundamentals win, and he shows precious few except an ability to hit the ball.

i like his speed and enthusiasm. he can help a team of half-speed plodders, and yes, i am talking to you, Lance. it is not just Lee. Pence has a long way to go, and it appears that we will watch every step of the way. i hope he is getting lots of instruction and that he is listening.

[Mr. Happy]

and the bloop single should have been caught. he totally froze and did not move for several seconds. the only explanation i could come up with was he could not see it in the twilight. that happens, but i do not know how dark it was then.

this hero worship of him has got to stop. "reckless abandon" is NEVER the way to play baseball. fundamentals win, and he shows precious few except an ability to hit the ball.

i like his speed and enthusiasm. he can help a team of half-speed plodders, and yes, i am talking to you, Lance. it is not just Lee. Pence has a long way to go, and it appears that we will watch every step of the way. i hope he is getting lots of instruction and that he is listening.

Coach and Prav, I agree with both of you. Pence has a long way to go. I was just saying that I'm going to enjoy watching a lot of it due to his apparent effort, which, juxtaposed to the seeming nonchalance of Twinkie and El Caballo, makes him look like he's hustiling. I can more readily forgive he who's trying than he who appears to be merely going through the motions.

[Navin R Johnson]

I still like Pence over the other options, burke/lane.

[remy]

Nobody caught that one.

[JimR]

I still like Pence over the other options, burke/lane.

oh, me too, but the adulation he is getting is ridiculous. he has the tools to be a good player, but he is far from it now.

[homer]

Loretta got swipe tagged on a high throw from Poopholes to Molina because he didn't slide. JD immediately said that the on deck hitter was not there telling him to get down. Pence was on deck.

Then he hit the salami.

[JimR]

Loretta got swipe tagged on a high throw from Poopholes to Molina because he didn't slide. JD immediately said that the on deck hitter was not there telling him to get down. Pence was on deck.

Then he hit the salami.

on deck hitter not there b/c the ball was in play in the infield, not coming in from the OF. JD later corrected the misimpression he created.

[mihoba]

Loretta got swipe tagged on a high throw from Poopholes to Molina because he didn't slide. JD immediately said that the on deck hitter was not there telling him to get down. Pence was on deck.

Then he hit the salami.

It was already 9-0. Loretta wasn't exactly killing himself getting down. The play was right in front of him, and he barely ducked. No big deal, and I'm surprised JD even mentioned it.

Pence was on the 3B side, remember. And as Jim said, it was an infield play. He didn't have time to help the runner.

[homer]

on deck hitter not there b/c the ball was in play in the infield, not coming in from the OF. JD later corrected the misimpression he created.

Missed that part, thanks.

[Navin R Johnson]

oh, me too, but the adulation he is getting is ridiculous. he has the tools to be a good player, but he is far from it now.

Just good?   I understand the frustration with the incessant Pence hype from the Foam Finger waving, sports radio calling, Dick Justice reading, “can bagwell play 3rd” type of fans.  But just good? 

He sure looks like he has the potential to be a bit better than good.    Maybe a .300/25/100 type of player.

[matadorph]

Just good?   I understand the frustration with the incessant Pence hype from the Foam Finger waving, sports radio calling, Dick Justice reading, “can bagwell play 3rd” type of fans.  But just good? 

He sure looks like he has the potential to be a bit better than good.    Maybe a .300/25/100 type of player.

This is my position, too. Apparently there are some bruised egos around these parts who can't let go of their insistence that Pence wasn't ready and that he'd be ruined by major-league pitchers if his grapes weren't left to ripen on the vine. Frankly, I find the papal contrarianism on Pence almost as insufferable as the hero worship over on Astros Daily. Let it go, guys. Let it go.

[pravata]

This is my position, too. Apparently there are some bruised egos around these parts who can't let go of their insistence that Pence wasn't ready and that he'd be ruined by major-league pitchers if his grapes weren't left to ripen on the vine. Frankly, I find the papal contrarianism on Pence almost as insufferable as the hero worship over on Astros Daily. Let it go, guys. Let it go.

What in the hell are you talking about?  Pence hit a homerun today off a guy just up from AA who left a fastball up.  Nobody ever suggested Pence cant hit a fastball.  If you choose to ignore how he looked against Wainwright yesterday, that betrays your prejudices.  Frankly, I'm not in the business of predicting how any player will eventually play.  Whats more, I have no use for that kind of talk.  I watch.  And watching right now, Pence has some issues. 

[austro]

This is my position, too. Apparently there are some bruised egos around these parts who can't let go of their insistence that Pence wasn't ready and that he'd be ruined by major-league pitchers if his grapes weren't left to ripen on the vine. Frankly, I find the papal contrarianism on Pence almost as insufferable as the hero worship over on Astros Daily. Let it go, guys. Let it go.

Ummm, he isn't exactly Mickey Mantle yet. After today he's hitting what, .260? And slugging under .400.  And there's lots of evidence to indicate a book is developing on him. Let's all just lay back and see how things unfold. He's young and his enthusiasm is infectious, and it's fun to watch a young guy develop (that's why the AA and AAA teams are so much fun to watch). But let's not pretend that this guy is a game-changer just yet.

[Mr. Happy]

What in the hell are you talking about?  Pence hit a homerun today off a guy just up from AA who left a fastball up.  Nobody ever suggested Pence cant hit a fastball.  If you choose to ignore how he looked against Wainwright yesterday, that betrays your prejudices.  Frankly, I'm not in the business of predicting how any player will eventually play.  Whats more, I have no use for that kind of talk.  I watch.  And watching right now, Pence has some issues. 

Pence has some issues; frankly, some of the issues that caused me to post repeatedly in the past that he begin in the minor leagues. I saw some holes in his game during ST, especially the two games I saw live, including one of his monster games during ST. But he's the best option for now. We're watching a work in progress-not the second coming.

[JimR]

This is my position, too. Apparently there are some bruised egos around these parts who can't let go of their insistence that Pence wasn't ready and that he'd be ruined by major-league pitchers if his grapes weren't left to ripen on the vine. Frankly, I find the papal contrarianism on Pence almost as insufferable as the hero worship over on Astros Daily. Let it go, guys. Let it go.

who gives a fuck what you "find." the Astros themselves said he was not ready and that they wished they did not have to bring him up when they did. if you ask them, the Express people will tell you he was not ready. i was not only expressing my opinion from watching him play.

he hit a grand slam off a AA pitcher today in a 9-0 game. good for him that he did that. his success should make us all happy. how has he done against MLB pitchers? how did he handle Wells' CB in his first AB? how does he hit breaking pitches?

maybe he'll be a good player. maybe he won't. maybe he'll be better than good. no one has seen enough to know, but he'll get every chance. he runs well and he hits the FB. he does nothing else well yet. watching him develop or not is why some of us like to watch games rather than believe the crap that internet jock sniffers regurgitate from the media.

go fuck yourself, matadorph.

[matadorph]

What in the hell are you talking about?  Pence hit a homerun today off a guy just up from AA who left a fastball up.  Nobody ever suggested Pence cant hit a fastball.  If you choose to ignore how he looked against Wainwright yesterday, that betrays your prejudices.  Frankly, I'm not in the business of predicting how any player will eventually play.  Whats more, I have no use for that kind of talk.  I watch.  And watching right now, Pence has some issues. 

i'm talking about this stupid ass shit you guys were spewing about Pence being ruined by his first experience with major-league pitchers. i've never said he's the second-coming of anything. i thought he'd be a june/july call-up and preferred that he get a few more at-bats in Round Rock, but unlike some of you, i haven't felt the need to second-guess a decision that came six weeks early. if he weren't ready, he wouldn't be there now. get over it.

[matadorph]

Ummm, he isn't exactly Mickey Mantle yet. After today he's hitting what, .260? And slugging under .400.  And there's lots of evidence to indicate a book is developing on him. Let's all just lay back and see how things unfold. He's young and his enthusiasm is infectious, and it's fun to watch a young guy develop (that's why the AA and AAA teams are so much fun to watch). But let's not pretend that this guy is a game-changer just yet.

here's an idea: read what I wrote, not what you imagined I wrote.

[pravata]

i'm talking about this stupid ass shit you guys were spewing about Pence being ruined by his first experience with major-league pitchers. i've never said he's the second-coming of anything. i thought he'd be a june/july call-up and preferred that he get a few more at-bats in Round Rock, but unlike some of you, i haven't felt the need to second-guess a decision that came six weeks early. if he weren't ready, he wouldn't be there now. get over it.

I dont think you've been paying attention to what Purpura and Garner have said about Pence.  This is not how they intended to bring him up.  The team was playing so poorly they thought they needed a "spark".   Sitting down an established player for a raw one can spark the team in one of two ways, the kid could come in and play great, which he has not, or the other experienced players can realize that their positions arent that stable.  I dont think much of that tactic.  If you've got guys that arent playing at full speed, you've got the wrong guys.  Frankly, I dont see that he's been much of a spark and from what I have seen from actually watching him play, I understand why he was in Round Rock.  Now, you're all excited about telling people to "get over" something, I'm not sure what, but your exuberance in the face of what is obvious to anyone who chooses to watch the game tells me that you are paying more attention to your feelings than the Astros. 

[Mr. Happy]

i'm talking about this stupid ass shit you guys were spewing about Pence being ruined by his first experience with major-league pitchers. i've never said he's the second-coming of anything. i thought he'd be a june/july call-up and preferred that he get a few more at-bats in Round Rock, but unlike some of you, i haven't felt the need to second-guess a decision that came six weeks early. if he weren't ready, he wouldn't be there now. get over it.

I never understood you to even imply that Pence was the second coming, and I don't recall anyone else here going off on second coming stupidity. You and I had a slight disagreement as I recall over my concern that bringing him up too soon would have a major negative effect on him, like I think that it had on Luke Scott in a previous year. I think that the references by others to second coming have been to some of the stupid sports talk show callers spewing about Pence being the second coming. Now, someone may pull up an archive proving me wrong, because my memory ain't what it used to be.

[matadorph]

Now, you're all excited about telling people to "get over" something, I'm not sure what, but your exuberance in the face of what is obvious to anyone who chooses to watch the game tells me that you are paying more attention to your feelings than the Astros.

Exuberance? What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm not oblivious to Pence's weaknesses and I don't think he's any kind of savior, but I certainly don't subscribe to the the idea that his development was at risk by being called up so soon.

[pravata]

Exuberance? What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm not oblivious to Pence's weaknesses and I don't think he's any kind of savior, but I certainly don't subscribe to the the idea that his development was at risk by being called up so soon.

("He sure looks like he has the potential to be a bit better than good.    Maybe a .300/25/100 type of player."

"This is my position, too..." That exuberance.)  How many games have you seen him play?

[matadorph]

That's not exuberance, that's general optimism. You think it's exuberance because I happen to take a different view than the OWA company line on Mr Underpants.


ETA: and don't even start on the "how many Express games have you seen" horseshit.

[JimR]

i'm talking about this stupid ass shit you guys were spewing about Pence being ruined by his first experience with major-league pitchers. i've never said he's the second-coming of anything. i thought he'd be a june/july call-up and preferred that he get a few more at-bats in Round Rock, but unlike some of you, i haven't felt the need to second-guess a decision that came six weeks early. if he weren't ready, he wouldn't be there now. get over it.

you are full of your own hot air and your hero worship. Purpura damn near apologized because the Astros were forced to bring him up after 20+ games. the Express people were shocked--not surprised, shocked--at the call up. it is too early to tell if he will hit .300 or .030. you just are dazzled by a HR off a pitcher who is in MLB only b/c Hancock was a drunk. if Burke could play CF, Pence would be in RR. if Lane could hit, Pence would be in RR. Pence was called up because of the total failure of others, not because he had shown in 20 games that he was ready for the bigs.

go fuck yourself.

[WulawHorn]

you are full of your own hot air and your hero worship. Purpura damn near apologized because the Astros were forced to bring him up after 20+ games. the Express people were shocked--not surprised, shocked--at the call up. it is too early to tell if he will hit .300 or .030. you just are dazzled by a HR off a pitcher who is in MLB only b/c Hancock was a drunk. if Burke could play CF, Pence would be in RR. if Lane could hit, Pence would be in RR. Pence was called up because of the total failure of others, not because he had shown in 20 games that he was ready for the bigs.

go fuck yourself.

Jim- is it fair to say that you think Pence is the Astros best option in CF right now?  Just trying to understand what you are saying.

[ybbodeus]

I think bringing him up early was a panic move inside a frustration mood wrapped in a marketing decision.

[matadorph]

you are full of your own hot air and your hero worship.

have another drink ya old gasbag. i haven't said anything about Pence that could even be remotely construed as  "hero worship." your posts in this thread prove my point about bruised egos. how dare Purpura make a move that counters the Wisdom of The Popes!

Purpura damn near apologized because the Astros were forced to bring him up after 20+ games. the Express people were shocked--not surprised, shocked--at the call up. it is too early to tell if he will hit .300 or .030. you just are dazzled by a HR off a pitcher who is in MLB only b/c Hancock was a drunk. if Burke could play CF, Pence would be in RR. if Lane could hit, Pence would be in RR. Pence was called up because of the total failure of others, not because he had shown in 20 games that he was ready for the bigs.

Wait, so you're saying Pence wouldn't have got the call if Burke didn't suck balls? Well fuck me, I had no idea.

[Waldo]

your posts in this thread prove my point about bruised egos. how dare Purpura make a move that counters the Wisdom of The Popes!

And it seems that you are the one trying to inflate your own ego.

Purpura didn't make a move that countered anyone here, he made a move that countered himself.  If you go back and read the original Pence thread from last weekend, you will find that as the primary source of frustration.

[pravata]

That's not exuberance, that's general optimism. You think it's exuberance because I happen to take a different view than the OWA company line on Mr Underpants.


ETA: and don't even start on the "how many Express games have you seen" horseshit.

Start and finish.  If you've seen as many games featuring Pence as I have and you're even pretending to say anything about his future you're laughable.  The contrarian to the OWA line was played out long, long, ago.  Watch the damn game. 

[Noe]

Frankly, I find the papal contrarianism on Pence almost as insufferable as the hero worship over on Astros Daily. Let it go, guys. Let it go.

On one hand, I get told just this week that I haven't said so much good things and gushed about a player since Dave Clark (and of course, it was Reeshard Hidalgo they meant), now I'm told by you that I am a contrarian against PENCE!!!  That is, of course, if that wide brush is what I think it is.

Seems level-headed conversation isn't allowed either way.  Can't win with some people because they just won't listen or read carefully.

[Noe]

how dare Purpura make a move that counters the Wisdom of The Popes!

This sort of schtick wasn't that much fun when Hetero Doxy did it, it won't be fun now either.  Your beef is about this group of folks, not about knowing anything about what is being said about PENCE!!!

Why you've chosen this path is beyond me, but you did.

[JimR]

how dare Purpura make a move that counters the Wisdom of The Popes!

because Drayton told him to. that was not a move made by Smith or Purpura. The Grocer was pandering to ignorant fans like you for reasons of his own.

wow, 1 HR off a AA pitcher by a guy hitting .260 and matadorph is orgasmic! do you have His autograph yet?

fyi--i had surgery for a kidney stone this week so i have not been drinking very often. my dismissal of your dumbass statements (somewhat redundant phrase) was stone cold sober.

now, run along.

[JimR]

Jim- is it fair to say that you think Pence is the Astros best option in CF right now?  Just trying to understand what you are saying.

can Pence play CF? who the hell knows? he was not even there full time in RR.

this was not a baseball move. he's there so watch him play and develop, if he does. he won't be worse than Burke.

[Phil_in_CS]

I think that he's on the big league team at all shows how bad some of the other outfielders are, not how good PENCE!! is right now.

A big key is to see how he hits over the next month. Right now, he's as unknown to big league scouts as any another other AA guy. That won't be in the case by June, and by then they will have a good book on what he can't hit. Will he adjust and learn to hit that? I hope to hell he does.

We've seen many kids get called up, rip the cover off the ball for a few weeks, then fall off as the scouts figure out what to pitch to him.

[WulawHorn]

can Pence play CF? who the hell knows? he was not even there full time in RR.

this was not a baseball move. he's there so watch him play and develop, if he does. he won't be worse than Burke.

That was my point- vis a vis Burke after the first week when I said I was ready to see Pence- I didn't really mean him in particular, just rather anyone who could have the possibility to play an adequate CF.  I'm looking forward to watching him develop- that is a lot of fun (as long as it's one or two guys trying to develop within the framework of the rest of the team knowing what they are doing).  4 or 5 guys at one time and you have problems.

[matadorph]

because Drayton told him to. that was not a move made by Smith or Purpura. The Grocer was pandering to ignorant fans like you for reasons of his own.

wow, 1 HR off a AA pitcher by a guy hitting .260 and matadorph is orgasmic! do you have His autograph yet?

fyi--i had surgery for a kidney stone this week so i have not been drinking very often. my dismissal of your dumbass statements (somewhat redundant phrase) was stone cold sober.

now, run along.

Have you ever noticed that whenever you sit behind a keyboard, some bitter old chode starts typing? fyi when you're done with they hay-weaving, there's a white box at the top right with a tiny magnifying glass next to it. you can point your cursor there and type text into that box. check it out sometime.

[matadorph]

Your beef is about this group of folks, not about knowing anything about what is being said about PENCE!!!

Why you've chosen this path is beyond me, but you did.

Before the move happened, my concern with the idea of him being promoted was more about the pitching staff and less about his readiness. I felt he was close enough but calling him up wasn't ideal because somebody would have to go down, and that would most likely mean an 11-man pitching staff. But because I wasn't apoplectic over the move I'm a hero-worshipper who's never seen Pence play. My only "beef" is with the idea that calling him up would ruin the Astros best position prospect. Bullfuckingshit.

[MRaup]

Before the move happened, my concern with the idea of him being promoted was more about the pitching staff and less about his readiness. I felt he was close enough but calling him up wasn't ideal because somebody would have to go down, and that would most likely mean an 11-man pitching staff. But because I wasn't apoplectic over the move I'm a hero-worshipper who's never seen Pence play. My only "beef" is with the idea that calling him up would ruin the Astros best position prospect. Bullfuckingshit.

Hey numbnuts... Nobody said it was going to ruin him. There was concern it would stunt his growth as a ball player and/or set him back. In your fit of gross over-generalizations, you seem to miss the point that nobody was saying that he was going to curl up in a ball and refuse to leave the Astros locker room. People are concerned that, in the long run, he could suffer a hit to his confidence that could set him back.

What is so unreasonable about worrying about that?

[JimR]

My only "beef" is with the idea that calling him up would ruin the Astros best position prospect. Bullfuckingshit.

you're too stupid to understand that calling someone up too soon CAN hurt his long-term development? yes, i guess you are that stupid. world-class stupid. all you have to do to see a recent example is Luke Scott two years ago. if it is not a concern, why don't they call up to MLB every phenom who is tearing up AA?

damn, you're dumb. if you are not dumb, then Noe is correct.

[JimR]

Have you ever noticed that whenever you sit behind a keyboard, some bitter old chode starts typing? fyi when you're done with they hay-weaving, there's a white box at the top right with a tiny magnifying glass next to it. you can point your cursor there and type text into that box. check it out sometime.

ah, my latest stalker. welcome to the club. maybe you'll notice that there are lots of folks telling you how full of shit you are, not just some "bitter old chode." whatever that is.

now, fuck off.

[JGrave]

He's played in all of 7 games up here.

It would be totally sweet if we could just watch him play before pointing fingers.

He's a nice kid.  He's fun to watch but he needs work.  Let's watch.

[Noe]

Before the move happened, my concern with the idea of him being promoted was more about the pitching staff and less about his readiness. I felt he was close enough but calling him up wasn't ideal because somebody would have to go down, and that would most likely mean an 11-man pitching staff.

So what does this have to do with anything being said about his readiness.  I don't understand your position given the context of what has been said.  And I especially do not understand why you think no one should have concern about his readiness.  That is the strangest part about your rant.

But because I wasn't apoplectic over the move I'm a hero-worshipper who's never seen Pence play. My only "beef" is with the idea that calling him up would ruin the Astros best position prospect. Bullfuckingshit.

Who in the world in this thread said anything remotely near this?  No one said this so you're arguing with voices in your head.  Leave us out of your paranoya.

[WulawHorn]

I think this game showed that the astros could use a real life, run producer in the 6th spot- something they have not had in a long, long time.

He ain't getting it done when the pitcher has to bear down, focus and get him out.  Doesn't mean I don't like watching him, but he ain't the answer (at least to any offensive woes) hitting in a run producer spot.

Did anyone else think that catch in CF was goofy looking- like he almost ran away from the ball at the end to dive?

Frustrating series- they freaking score twice in three games and win both.  Arrrrrrrrgh.  They are horrible this year, and apparently, as the stros are 2-4 against them, we are worse.

[MusicMan]

Have you ever noticed that whenever you sit behind a keyboard, some bitter old chode starts typing?

Actually, no.  Perhaps you should explore the possibility that this phenomenon is limited to you, and if so, what might be the reason for that?