Was Pence the catalist for tonigs win

[Fredia]

Its not possible that one change in the line up could make that much  difference. Everyone seemed to wake up and come out of a collective slump at the same time. Hope it contiunes

[Alkie]

See, you answered your own question-flavored statement that was the subject of this thread.

[Noe]

Its not possible that one change in the line up could make that much  difference. Everyone seemed to wake up and come out of a collective slump at the same time. Hope it contiunes

Loretta inserted for MoBerg and Pence moved to #6 was the difference.  Loretta is a very good player and should be in there every day and will help on offense.  Houston didn't just bench Burke, MoBerg was put on notice as well.

Tomorrow, expect Burke to be back in the lineup, Biggio to sit and the lineup to be something you'll probably see a lot of during the season: Burke leadoff, Loretta (3rd base) second.... and then Pence or a CF they pick up in a trade hitting #6 or #5.

[Anit]

i absolutely agree with what was said about loretta

he needs to be in the lineup every day...im all for benching moberg and letting loretta play 3b on a daily basis

pence was great tonight though, i really liked what i saw..extremely aggressive at the plate

[Noe]

i absolutely agree with what was said about loretta

he needs to be in the lineup every day...im all for benching moberg and letting loretta play 3b on a daily basis

Both MoBerg and Burke are now utility guys and Lamb and Loretta just got their PT increased.  It goes with the job.  MoBerg lost his middle of the lineup job to Pence, not Loretta or Lamb (although Lamb could also replace MoBerg at the middle as well).  You don't leave 10 men on base and expect not to have some sort of reaction from the organization.  Not if you're paid to drive runs in.

pence was great tonight though, i really liked what i saw..extremely aggressive at the plate

I didn't get to hear or see any of it.  But my understanding is that Lance Berkman and Loretta did the key damage in the 5th with two outs.  Loretta-Berkman-Lee is a very scary  2-3-4 combo to face for a pitcher.  If the ducks are on the pond, those are the guys that will get them in.

Pence is an aggressive hitter.  That is his MO.  It is also what makes him go into prolonged slumps if a book is developed on him.  They will never sneak a fastball past this kid in the majors, and if they get it into the inside half of the plate, it is where this kid does his damage.  If however the pitcher pitches him backwards or if Pence thinks that a pitcher in the majors will pitch him like he expects or has seen in the minors, he's going to get fooled badly.  IOW - if Pence thinks that he'll get a fastball on an 2-0 count in the majors, he's got another thing coming.  Not even on a 2-1 count.  So he's going to learn by experience.  The key to getting production out of Pence right now and hopefully for a prolonged time is for him to be in the middle of a functioning lineup.  If Loretta-Berkman-Lee-Scott are doing their job, Pence will see a ton of fastballs.  If Pence becomes part of the mix with Loretta-Berkman-Lee, then same difference, perhaps even better.  And that will be good because this kid can mash a fastball.

On defense, he's a work in progress so fans better be good to him because the expectation is fully theirs and not fair to the kid.

[JSAstrosFan]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what happens when Rick White comes back?

[Noe]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what happens when Rick White comes back?

Somebody goes.

[JSAstrosFan]

Somebody goes.

Let me rephrase that. Is there an obvious choice for who goes down?

[Foghorn]

PENCE!!!! deserves 100% of the credit for tonight's offensive output.

[WulawHorn]

I went to the game. Noe- I don't know if you consider a 23 foot swinging bunt doing damage or not- if so then yes- loretta was responsible for doing damage.  berkman then had a bases loaded 3 run single (he got himself in a run down between 1st and 2nd and the brew crew went braindead and allowed the last run to score stupidly).

Pence wasn't a catalyst for anything, but I will say this:  That dude has a seriously long stride.  he went 1st to home on a double down the LF line (which is an impressive feet at MMP with the wall in left so shallow).  He was absolutely flying. I watching him the entire way and his stride chews up a ton of ground.  Reminds me kinda of watching Vince Young run- I think he's a two stride per 5 yard guy, which is seriously long.  It was funny- I said I couldn't believe how long the stride was, my buddy agreed and then Milo was talking about it on the radio afterward. I wondered if that meant I was a blind, senile pervert- being like Milo and all.

[johnstros]

pence got a hit off of an inside fastball.  bush tried to put two fastballs on him two pitches in a row.  the first being a pitch on the outside that pence took to the outside just a few feet foul then bush tried to put an inside fastball past him.  tried to jam him, but pence didn't seem to have any trouble getting the bat around. 

so it was as noe said on that at bat, fastballs don't really seem to faze him... 

[mihoba]

He make Bush work on his debut AB, but finally struck out, which actually brought a smile to his face.

Afterwards, he was still smiles as he celebrated with Coop.

[tophfar]

  Reminds me kinda of watching Vince Young run-

Is there anything that doesnt remind you of vince young?  seriously, stalk much?

[Mr. Happy]

Both MoBerg and Burke are now utility guys and Lamb and Loretta just got their PT increased.  It goes with the job.  MoBerg lost his middle of the lineup job to Pence, not Loretta or Lamb (although Lamb could also replace MoBerg at the middle as well).  You don't leave 10 men on base and expect not to have some sort of reaction from the organization.  Not if you're paid to drive runs in.

Exactly. OPS is an overblown stat if a big part of your job is to drive in runs. MoBerg's penchant/talent for drawing bases on balls has value, but not as an everyday player in the middle of an order.

[JimR]

Its not possible that one change in the line up could make that much  difference. Everyone seemed to wake up and come out of a collective slump at the same time. Hope it contiunes

oh, sure. he did not have to play. just his presence in Houston snapped the entire team out of its slump.

seriously, can we stop talking about Pence as if he were some sort of savior and just watch his development? if he hits the ball like he did in RR and does not get homer-happy, it will be fun--hard hit balls in the gaps and run.

i concur about Loretta. he will be the catlyst for a resurgence. Mo is out of chances.

[Noe]

I went to the game. Noe- I don't know if you consider a 23 foot swinging bunt doing damage or not- if so then yes- loretta was responsible for doing damage.  berkman then had a bases loaded 3 run single (he got himself in a run down between 1st and 2nd and the brew crew went braindead and allowed the last run to score stupidly).

Pence wasn't a catalyst for anything, but I will say this:  That dude has a seriously long stride.  he went 1st to home on a double down the LF line (which is an impressive feet at MMP with the wall in left so shallow).  He was absolutely flying. I watching him the entire way and his stride chews up a ton of ground.  Reminds me kinda of watching Vince Young run- I think he's a two stride per 5 yard guy, which is seriously long.  It was funny- I said I couldn't believe how long the stride was, my buddy agreed and then Milo was talking about it on the radio afterward. I wondered if that meant I was a blind, senile pervert- being like Milo and all.

  That's funny!  Underpants does pick up the ground quickly with his stride.  He is amazing the way he has that very long stride.

I didn't watch nor hear the game, so I clearly overstated the key single by Loretta.  That it came with two outs and the game tied 1-1, I simply thought it was key.  But will admit what Berkman did was the real key to the game.  I just love Loretta hitting #2 and things seem to happen offensively when he's in the lineup.

[DVauthrin]

  That's funny!  Underpants does pick up the ground quickly with his stride.  He is amazing the way he has that very long stride.

I didn't watch nor hear the game, so I clearly overstated the key single by Loretta.  That it came with two outs and the game tied 1-1, I simply thought it was key.  But will admit what Berkman did was the real key to the game.  I just love Loretta hitting #2 and things seem to happen offensively when he's in the lineup.

I only saw the highlights on astros.com, but that was a good sharp single by lance.   But I too was impressed with pence's pure speed and attitude towards the game.    The play where he scored from 1st on everett's double down 3b line with only 1 out showed his great stride and his pure joy/determination to be here.   

With that smile of his, IF he plays well I wouldn't be shocked to see him become part of the astros marketing campaign in the future as a face of the franchise.

[Noe]

i concur about Loretta. he will be the catlyst for a resurgence. Mo is out of chances.

That bold move by Garner flew under the radar, but was vital to solidifying the lineup.  It changes everything for the pitcher when the lineup is constructed the way it was last night.  Some variations with Lamb playing third and Loretta maybe manning second or shortstop will also make the lineup very strong.  MoBerg has much to worry about given what just happened.

Pence is a move that has everyone talking, but the real move was Loretta getting in the lineup and probably not moving out for a while.  At least I hope so, no time to give up on this move for Scraps.  It works.

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

Is there anything that doesnt remind you of vince young?  seriously, stalk much?

When I saw the Rolling Stones last fall, there was one point when Mick ran across the stage and did a little high step stride action as he approched the corner of the stage then at the last instant he held the microphone out over the stage monitor while leaning back in the other direction for balance so he wouldn't fall off the stage, and I thought that was exactly how Vince would have done it.

Then there was another time when was getting my car worked on and the mechanic dropped a wrench, then picked it up and ran around the car three times really fast. Next thing I knew my car had morphed from a Camry to a Bentley, and I thought that was exactly how Vince would have done it.

As I was driving home I came upon a car wreck and there were some EMS people working the scene along with some cops and Vince Young. Vince just told everybody to go home and he'd take care of it. He air-lifted the injured to the hospital in his hellicopter. After he dropped them off he noticed a surgeon having some trouble with a heart by-pass proceedure, so Vince when in and guided the surgeon though it. Vince even stitched the guy up!

[WulawHorn]

 
I didn't watch nor hear the game, so I clearly overstated the key single by Loretta.  That it came with two outs and the game tied 1-1, I simply thought it was key. 

I caught the part where you said you never saw nor heard the game- that's why I was giving you a bit of context for what happened. I really, really like Loretta, but this was his worst offensive game in the last 3 or 4 that he has started- the hit was key but definately of the fluke variety.

That bold move by Garner flew under the radar, but was vital to solidifying the lineup.  It changes everything for the pitcher when the lineup is constructed the way it was last night.  Some variations with Lamb playing third and Loretta maybe manning second or shortstop will also make the lineup very strong.  MoBerg has much to worry about given what just happened.

Agree with you RE the Loretta in and Ensberg out move being important. I don't know how permanent it is though.  Garner specifically said friday night something along the lines of:  "not to pick on Mark b/c he has done well, but he has started 4 of the previous 7 games that we lost so he obviously isn't the answer in that whoever he's replacing isn't causing us to lose."  I thought it was kind of an odd quote myself- so who knows.  There are about 5 or 6 different thoughts running through my mind when I saw that, so I'll keep them to myself b/c I could be full of shit on all of them.

Is there anything that doesnt remind you of vince young?  seriously, stalk much?

I think I've ever posted/participated about VY in one thread ever (and it was an offseason thread at that). His stride was entirely reminiscent of VY to me, so I used an example to illustrate that I figured many/most would be familar with.  Don't like it fuck off- I was just trying to explain what I saw in a way that people who didn't get to see it would understand. It's my first time ever seeing Pence, and outside of people who watched him in the minor's I figured it would be everybody else's first time, and I figured himi running the bases didn't get on TV b/c the TV camera follows the ball. My attempt at a Public Service Announcement.

[ASTROCREEP]

  That's funny!  Underpants does pick up the ground quickly with his stride.  He is amazing the way he has that very long stride.

I didn't watch nor hear the game, so I clearly overstated the key single by Loretta.  That it came with two outs and the game tied 1-1, I simply thought it was key.  But will admit what Berkman did was the real key to the game.  I just love Loretta hitting #2 and things seem to happen offensively when he's in the lineup.

What about this line up then?

Biggio      2nd
Loretta    1st
Berkman   RF
Lee          LF
Lamb       3rd
Pence      CF
Everette   SS
Ausmus    C

[WulawHorn]

I like that lineup a lot- my only quible might be moving pence ahead of lamb. I don't know that I like the idea of Pence hitting in front of Everett, Ausmus, pitcher b/c I doubt he gets anything to hit, and would probably be pretty amped up and anxious and might get himself out on some bad pitches.

That's just a minor nit though, and I might be totally and completely wrong anyway. Lamb is a pretty professional hitter- I don't have the same concerns about him.

[DVauthrin]

What about this line up then?

Biggio      2nd
Loretta    1st
Berkman   RF
Lee          LF
Lamb       3rd
Pence      CF
Everette   SS
Ausmus    C

if you are going to do this, loretta plays 3b, lamb at 1b is a better defensive alignment.

[ASTROCREEP]

if you are going to do this, loretta plays 3b, lamb at 1b is a better defensive alignment.

Damn! Yes much better.


I think what Noe misssed by not watching the game, was the youthfull enthusiasn that Pence brought to the team, the rest of the guys just seemed to relaxe and PLAY.

TO ME, Pence's bat looked very quick.

[HudsonHawk]

I think I've ever posted/participated about VY in one thread ever (and it was an offseason thread at that).

You realize there's a search function on this board, don't you? 

[WulawHorn]

Search away- that's my recollection that it was basically on the one thread- I know there is like 50 posts on the one said thread- but if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I can tell you this, generally I post about the astros on here- this being an astros board and all.  I'll be happpy to admit I'm wrong- but it isn't like 70% of my posts are about the guy or anything- It is a very low number.

Use that search function and prove me wrong- I'll be happy to admit it- I think if you go through the majority of my posts you will see that this isn't the case that I'm stalking him.

Did you not appreciate the comparison/ eyewitness account. Do you not understand why I used it?

I can't think of an astro player in recent memory with a super long stride that allowed him to cover lost of turf.  Willy T was fast as all getout, but he didn't (in my recollection anyway- I'm sure I could be wrong) seemingly cover the distance between second and third in a couple of steps- he was fast in a blur kinda way, not in a gazelle kinda way.  Those long stride guys (like Pence looks to be, or vince) don't look like they are moving really fast when in reality they are, which was the point I was trying to convey.

Maybe Beltran- I kinda remember him being a long strider, but I'm not as positive on that as vince so I used him.

Like I said- show me all the different threads I'm posting about Vince on and I will be happy to appologize- I would have thought yall would have enjoyed the first hand reports about something that might not have been picked up on tv- I know I would have.

[HudsonHawk]

Use that search function and prove me wrong- I'll be happy to admit it- I think if you go through the majority of my posts you will see that this isn't the case that I'm stalking him.

I have no interest in proving you wrong, just suggesting that when you make claims like that, you keep it mind.  You still want to stick to your story, fine.  I'll let someone else prove you wrong, should they be interested.

\Did you not appreciate the comparison/ eyewitness account. Do you not understand why I used it?

Not particularly.  I saw the play and don't find it even remotely comparable to anything related to Vince Young. 

I can't think of an astro player in recent memory with a super long stride that allowed him to cover lost of turf.  Willy T was fast as all getout, but he didn't (in my recollection anyway- I'm sure I could be wrong) seemingly cover the distance between second and third in a couple of steps- he was fast in a blur kinda way, not in a gazelle kinda way. 

First, if you think Taveras wasn't a "gazelle", I'm wondering if you ever saw him run.  He moved like he was on rails.  Secondly, Pence reminds me far more of a giraffe than he does a gazelle.  He's loping and awkward, not smooth at all.  In fact, I can't think of a single player  who is more opposite of Vince Young than Hunter Pence is.

[JimR]

I have no interest in proving you wrong, just suggesting that when you make claims like that, you keep it mind.  You still want to stick to your story, fine.  I'll let someone else prove you wrong, should they be interested.



Not particularly.  I saw the play and don't find it even remotely comparable to anything related to Vince Young. 


First, if you think Taveras wasn't a "gazelle", I'm wondering if you ever saw him run.  He moved like he was on rails.  Secondly, Pence reminds me far more of a giraffe than he does a gazelle.  He's loping and awkward, not smooth at all.  In fact, I can't think of a single player  who is more opposite of Vince Young than Hunter Pence is.

exactly right. Pence does not look athletic at all. is he stood up straight, he'd be two inches taller. he runs and throws awkwardly, but his huge strides gobble up the ground. what he does is play with joy, which is fun to watch.

[WulawHorn]

You realize there's a search function on this board, don't you? 

Just used the search function for the first time (sorry if it isn't great) and it is about how I remember it.

A bunch of posts on the void related thread, true.  A couple of posts on other threads referencing VY that were throw ins and not related to my main point (which I probably why I didn't remember it specifically).

Eg- Saying drayton takes fans ideas into account when making moves- I mentioned Vince young, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, Koby Clemens, Team Rackitte, Greg Swindell, Doug Drabeck and Lance Berkman, but the entire point was about whether or not Drayton ordered Pence up and if so, then why.

Also- I had a sentence in 2005 during the braves game, right after Texas had beaten OU saying it was a great weekend b/c Texas finally beat OU, the astros won that marathon game and I hoped Casserly got shit canned and they took VY in the draft.

I've had hundreds of posts on this forum, with 1 thread where I posted a ton about VY and 3 or 4 others that I included him as a throw in while talking about something else.

But I will say again- why would you not want an illustration to something that you know?  You've seen Vince Young run b/c you watch football- you know what I'm talking about when I describe his stride- he is famous for it and the announcers always talk about it. If you haven't seen Hunter Pence run, what better illustration could I use for comparrison purposes? I'm just trying to help and share my observations in a way everyone will understand.

[HudsonHawk]

exactly right. Pence does not look athletic at all. is he stood up straight, he'd be two inches taller. he runs and throws awkwardly, but his huge strides gobble up the ground. what he does is play with joy, which is fun to watch.

He certainly was fun to watch.  And he's fast.  And he can hit.  But Vince Young *looks* like a athlete, whether he's running down the field or standing on a street corner.   Hunter Pence reminds me of nothing of the sort.  Hunter Pence reminds me of Vince Young the same way Kathy Bates reminds me of Alyssa Milano.

[JaneDoe]

The only thing about Pence that reminds me if Vince is their goofy contagious smile....like they are having the time of their life.  Which they are.

[WulawHorn]

He certainly was fun to watch.  And he's fast.  And he can hit.  But Vince Young *looks* like a athlete, whether he's running down the field or standing on a street corner.   Hunter Pence reminds me of nothing of the sort.  Hunter Pence reminds me of Vince Young the same way Kathy Bates reminds me of Alyssa Milano.

I was talking about the fact that he was chewing up huge plots of real estate with only a few steps, once he got going. I remarked about how long his stride was while watching the game.

Afterwards, in the pisser, they were doing the game recap and Milo was screaming about his long stride. It was obvious. I was trying to convey that point. It brought to mind vince going down the sideline against Oklahoma State and the draft recap where they were talking about his 2 strides per five yards when he got going and how rare that was.

pence looked to me like he was chewing up similar amounts of real estate.

I was trying to be helpful, it was a throw away line, and I swear to god some of you people would rather bitch, fight and argue then do anything else.
I appreciate firsthand reports from people. I ask for them, I want their opinion on them.  It doesn't mean I think it's going to be gospel- but I'm interested in what people have to say. That was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw him go from 2nd to third in seemingly three steps (obviousl hyperbole- please don't fucking bother to point out that it was actually 7.2 steps or something like that).

[HudsonHawk]

But I will say again- why would you not want an illustration to something that you know?  You've seen Vince Young run b/c you watch football- you know what I'm talking about when I describe his stride- he is famous for it and the announcers always talk about it.

I don't care what illustrations you use.  I happen to find your illustration completely whacked.  Pence and his stride are absolutely nothing like Young.  They are not even remotely comparable. 

If you haven't seen Hunter Pence run, what better illustration could I use for comparrison purposes? I'm just trying to help and share my observations in a way everyone will understand.

Pence's running is far closer to Lance Berkman's than he is to Vince Young's.  You just get much more awkward and goofier then Hunger Pence.  Young is not that way at all.  That's why people tend to think you have an obesession with Young.  It's like watching the Food Network and saying "if I could describe Rachel Ray's sauteeing...it's kind of like Vince Young..."  People start to wonder if you don't simply have Vince Young on the brain.

[TheWizard]

I have never once thought while watching Pence run "hey wait a min.. is that Vince out there."  Vince does not look awkward while running, the only thing with him is that he looks like he is running slower than he really is because of his long strides.  No awkwardness though.

[WulawHorn]

Lance Berkman would have still been rounding 3base when Pence was crossing the plate- he would have been held- that is why at no point in time when he was rounding the bases did I think that it was berkman out there.

I'm not talking about the astetics, I'm talking about the results. And Pence, undoubtedly, was covering a ton of ground with every step that he took. VY does the same (and is notorious for it) thus the comparisson.

I'm through with this thread- just as I said I'm through for 5 years with out pissing match we got into on the void related thread. I didn't bring up the 7 wins in a row or ROY b/c I said I'd let it lie for 5 years and then we could revisit the subject, b/c we had agreed to disagree.

I didn't think I'd posted about VY since then, I did the search and found I had casually mentioned him 2 or 3 other times, along with a list of other players, from different sports, in a brief aside as a part of a larger point.

I'm sorry if this is obsession. You can always feel free to put me on ignore. B/c I find you to be a smug, ondescending, argumentative twat I will no longer respond to you or anything you have to say- if you don't like what I say, or feel like I'm full of it, by all means blow me off- I'm obviously not particularly important to this forum, so it clearly wouldn't be a great loss for you.

 

[WulawHorn]

I have never once thought while watching Pence run "hey wait a min.. is that Vince out there."  Vince does not look awkward while running, the only thing with him is that he is running slower than he really is because of his long strides.  No awkwardness though.

Exactly the point I was trying to convey. Had nothing to do with Astetics, but rather with functionality. It doesn't look like they are flying, but they are moving fast b/c with the long strides they are covering a bunch of ground without looking like they are doing it.

I wasn't meaning to refer to awkwardness, similarity of vantage point or anything like that- just functional similarity in that they both take up huge chunks of ground in very few steps.

[HudsonHawk]

I'm sorry if this is obsession. You can always feel free to put me on ignore. B/c I find you to be a smug, ondescending, argumentative twat I will no longer respond to you or anything you have to say- if you don't like what I say, or feel like I'm full of it, by all means blow me off- I'm obviously not particularly important to this forum, so it clearly wouldn't be a great loss for you.

I don't give two shits what you think.  You're a whiny little bitch though.

[Limey]

He certainly was fun to watch.  And he's fast.  And he can hit.  But Vince Young *looks* like a athlete, whether he's running down the field or standing on a street corner.   Hunter Pence reminds me of nothing of the sort.  Hunter Pence reminds me of Vince Young the same way Kathy Bates reminds me of Alyssa Milano.

HP looks like one of the Deltas.

[TheWizard]

In other news - how about Pence's sister?!  I saw the family being interviewed... I sure wouldn't call her awkward.

[austro]

In other news - how about Pence's sister?!  I saw the family being interviewed... I sure wouldn't call her awkward.

The "Best Sister" winner is David Aardsma. Went to Rice, pitches for the Cubs now I think. At the 2003 College World Series, they interviewed her several times. "Stunning" is an understatement.

[tophfar]

stride was entirely reminiscent of VY to me, so I used an example to illustrate that I figured many/most would be familar with.  Don't like it fuck off- I was just trying to explain what I saw in a way that people who didn't get to see it would understand.

i'm going to buy you a WWVYD bracelet for christmas.  you can add it to your shrine later.