Lidge sucks at pitching baseballs

[Zan]

Seriously, is there anything more to say about the whole Lidge deal other than that he has no business receiving money in exchange for pitching baseballs anymore? I honestly believe he would struggle on the AA level at this point.

[Waldo]

He throws some pretty good batting practice.

[utastro]

He throws some pretty good batting practice.

just to the wrong team.

[LonghornCDR]

Did he suck last night when he went 1-2-3 in the seventh and ended up with a W?  He obviously doesn't suck ALL the time.

[Waldo]

just to the wrong team.

Well, nobody's perfect.

[utastro]

Did he suck last night when he went 1-2-3 in the seventh and ended up with a W?  He obviously doesn't suck ALL the time.

No, just in the 9th inning.  He should not see the 9th for a long long time if ever.

[LonghornCDR]

No, just in the 9th inning.  He should not see the 9th for a long long time if ever.

No argument from me.  My point is that he can obviously still get big league hitters out.  Is he worth the money he's being paid?  Not right now, but he still has a place on this team. 

[Zan]

No argument from me.  My point is that he can obviously still get big league hitters out.  Is he worth the money he's being paid?  Not right now, but he still has a place on this team. 

He can still get big league hitters out, all right. Just not at a professionally-competent ratio. 

[matadorph]

No, just in the 9th inning.  He should not see the 9th for a long long time if ever.

The problem is that tonight was the ideal chance for him to work on "finding his scheme" since he had a FUCKIN FOUR RUN LEAD with only three outs left.

If he can't handle pitching in the ninth with a cushion that big, what use is he? What value does he have to the team?

I've repeatedly stuck my neck out for Lidge by defending him to all my friends and co-workers who bash him, but he's making a fool out of those of us who do. I badly want Lidge to succeed and prove all the doubters wrong, but not at the expense of the team.

[ybbodeus]

Maybe tonight's near disaster will prevent Gar from kidding himself into believing Brad's okay....quit trying to rush him back into games.  That said, a 4 run lead?  Seemed a harmless move to bring him in.....truly.  This immature "no-nuthin" here would have gone to get him after the lead-off walk, though.

This game will drive you insane....and more insane than one might already be.

[utastro]

The Astros have a very good closer in Wheeler right now and a very good set up man with Qualls.  White and Miller and the rest of the bully have been pretty darn good.  Lidge has been very very bad except for 1 or 2 outings.  He is a liability right now.  I don't know what the future holds for Lidge, but I don't think it will be closing for the Astros anytime soon.  So what value does he have?  Mopping up blowouts against the Astros so other bullpen arms don't get used up?

[stubbyc]

You have a 4 run lead and 3 outs to get. You can't fucking walk the first 2 batters. He got squeezed a little bit on Gwynn but he wasn't even close against Weeks. That slider he threw to Fielder couldn't have been put on a tee any better than it was.

Also, that strike 3 call on Lamb was the worst strike 3 call I've seen in a long long time. That wasn't even remotely close to a strike.

[Reuben]

The Astros have a very good closer in Wheeler right now and a very good set up man with Qualls.  White and Miller and the rest of the bully have been pretty darn good.  Lidge has been very very bad except for 1 or 2 outings.  He is a liability right now.  I don't know what the future holds for Lidge, but I don't think it will be closing for the Astros any time soon.  So what value does he have.  Mopping up blowouts against the Astros so other bullpen arm don't get use up?

I guess that depends whether Garner and Tim feel that they have room for a "project" on this team right now. Maybe that means sending a guy like Moehler down and bringing up more of set-up type guy, and leaving just Lidge and Borkowski for mop-up-ish duties...

[Limey]

Also, that strike 3 call on Lamb was the worst strike 3 call I've seen in a long long time. That wasn't even remotely close to a strike.

That same inning the Ump called a strike on Scott (IIRC) that untied his shoes.

[utastro]

I guess that depends whether Garner and Tim feel that they have room for a "project" on this team right now. Maybe that means sending a guy like Moehler down and bringing up more of set-up type guy, and leaving just Lidge and Borkowski for mop-up-ish duties...

What the hell is Moehler doing on this team?  Is he the designated mop up pitcher?  How would you like to have that job?

[mihoba]

What the hell is Moehler doing on this team?  Is he the designated mop up pitcher?  How would you like to have that job?

This is the problem I've had all along. The 12th freakin' pitcher has thrown one inning.

I have more confidence in Moehler than Lidge right now, that is sad.

[ybbodeus]

You have a 4 run lead and 3 outs to get. You can't fucking walk the first 2 batters. He got squeezed a little bit on Gwynn but he wasn't even close against Weeks. That slider he threw to Fielder couldn't have been put on a tee any better than it was.

Also, that strike 3 call on Lamb was the worst strike 3 call I've seen in a long long time. That wasn't even remotely close to a strike.

What about the 8th inning barkout call against Ninja?  Catcher swung the mitt over three or four inches after the catch....and blue said okay.

[matadorph]

This is the problem I've had all along. The 12th freakin' pitcher has thrown one inning.

I have more confidence in Moehler than Lidge right now, that is sad.

If Moehler isn't gonna pitch, why not get rid of him and call up Stephen Randolph instead? Randolph has pitched brilliantly in relief for the Express and he'd add another lefty arm to the bullpen.

[stubbyc]

If Moehler isn't gonna pitch, why not get rid of him and call up Stephen Randolph instead? Randolph has pitched brilliantly in relief for the Express and he'd add another lefty arm to the bullpen.

Does anyone know what Moehler's role is on this team? There have been plenty of situations where we could have used Bruntlett so far.

[matadorph]

I think I'd rather have Randolph than Bruntlett. OP, Lamb, and Loretta are suffiicient bench options.

[matadorph]

Does anyone know what Moehler's role is on this team? There have been plenty of situations where we could have used Bruntlett so far.

His role at the start of the season was to provide starting pitching insurance in case Wandy, Woody, or Sampson struggled early and often. The fact that we haven't had to use him should give us great comfort.

[Twoniner]

He can still get big league hitters out, all right. Just not at a professionally-competent ratio.

That's the thing.   The game plays so that a pitching machine set on 85 mph  will get a scoreless inning a decent amount of the time.  A few "perfect innings" from a reliever don't mean much.    I will admit though, that Lidge was looking a little stronger in some of his outings since being bumped down from closing.   I don't think it was a terrible decision to bring him in with a 4 run lead, but in Lidge's head, you know this signaled that he is one or two good outings from getting his closer role back and he proceeded to shit his pants, and walk two men up four runs.   That is absolutely one of the most unforgivable non mental mistake you can make on a baseball diamond.     I think they just have to keep his ass out of the 8th or 9th inning.    If Lidge can just regain his shit for pitching the 6th or 7th,  the Astros can have damn near as strong of a bullpen as they had when Lidge was closing(assuming Wheeler pitches like 8th inning Wheeler).     Down the road it might create a problem when you have to pay Wheeler closer money along with Lidge.  For now,  if you have a strangely dominant 6th inning or situational strikeout pitcher in Lidge and an underpaid converted closer who is effective,  who cares?  Just keep winning  games.

[JaneDoe]

Just keep winning  games.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Noe]

That's the thing.   The game plays so that a pitching machine set on 85 mph  will get a scoreless inning a decent amount of the time.  A few "perfect innings" from a reliever don't mean much.    I will admit though, that Lidge was looking a little stronger in some of his outings since being bumped down from closing.   I don't think it was a terrible decision to bring him in with a 4 run lead, but in Lidge's head, you know this signaled that he is one or two good outings from getting his closer role back and he proceeded to shit his pants, and walk two men up four runs.   That is absolutely one of the most unforgivable non mental mistake you can make on a baseball diamond.     I think they just have to keep his ass out of the 8th or 9th inning.    If Lidge can just regain his shit for pitching the 6th or 7th,  the Astros can have damn near as strong of a bullpen as they had when Lidge was closing(assuming Wheeler pitches like 8th inning Wheeler).     Down the road it might create a problem when you have to pay Wheeler closer money along with Lidge.  For now,  if you have a strangely dominant 6th inning or situational strikeout pitcher in Lidge and an underpaid converted closer who is effective,  who cares?  Just keep winning  games.

Careful, Dobro's mob isn't going to like level-headness.

[LonghornCDR]

That's the thing.   The game plays so that a pitching machine set on 85 mph  will get a scoreless inning a decent amount of the time.  A few "perfect innings" from a reliever don't mean much.    I will admit though, that Lidge was looking a little stronger in some of his outings since being bumped down from closing.   I don't think it was a terrible decision to bring him in with a 4 run lead, but in Lidge's head, you know this signaled that he is one or two good outings from getting his closer role back and he proceeded to shit his pants, and walk two men up four runs.   That is absolutely one of the most unforgivable non mental mistake you can make on a baseball diamond.     I think they just have to keep his ass out of the 8th or 9th inning.    If Lidge can just regain his shit for pitching the 6th or 7th,  the Astros can have damn near as strong of a bullpen as they had when Lidge was closing(assuming Wheeler pitches like 8th inning Wheeler).     Down the road it might create a problem when you have to pay Wheeler closer money along with Lidge.  For now,  if you have a strangely dominant 6th inning or situational strikeout pitcher in Lidge and an underpaid converted closer who is effective,  who cares?  Just keep winning  games.

Well said.

[Dobro]

Careful, Dobro's mob isn't going to like level-headness.

Funny, Noe.  This "one bad outing" nonsense is utter horse hockey and you know it.  But, I've got to give you credit; you make the argument with a face straighter than the Cincinnati Kid's, in true "Pope" fashion.

Here we were this time last year discussing the same thing.

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=66517.msg66635;topicseen#msg66635

Lidge was given the entire 2006 season to work out the kinks.  I'm not sure more work is the antidote.

Noe, if you were the manager (or GM) of the Astros, (yes, we all know you are not) how would you handle Brad Lidge and at what point would you consider him "unfixable?"

[Noe]

Funny, Noe.  This "one bad outing" nonsense is utter horse hockey and you know it.

No.  I'm serious.

But, I've got to give you credit; you make the argument with a face straighter than the Cincinnati Kid's, in true "Pope" fashion.

Let's just shoot the messenger why don't we!

Here we were this time last year discussing the same thing.

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=66517.msg66635;topicseen#msg66635

Lidge was given the entire 2006 season to work out the kinks.  I'm not sure more work is the antidote.

It is what they're trying to do and one night of utter suckitude was not going to do him in, no matter how much you wish it to be so.  If he is improving (and watch the game people, put away the stats for a damn minute, okay!), then one bad night does not do him in.  If he had had a really lousy Thursday night and then followed it up with last night, then fine, we're talking a degeneration and some serious problem.

Last night was perhaps the beginning of the end, or maybe it was a stumble but no fall.  Garner said as much that "we will regroup tomorrow".  Fans and some media don't want that, they want blood now for the one bad night, Thursday night be damned!

I for one am glad you don't run the Houston Astros for that sake alone.

Noe, if you were the manager (or GM) of the Astros, (yes, we all know you are not) how would you handle Brad Lidge and at what point would you consider him "unfixable?"

I thought I explain all this clearly in my post last night?  I guess not, but if I saw no improvement, I'd approach him about injury, same as Garner did with Lance Berkman.  It is no different for any player on the team. However, what you call improvement and what a manager calls improvement are two distinctly different things.  Fans see stats (or results), managers see whether the improvement is in the approach and attitude.  Stats will fall in line soon enough, unless one is looking for Lidge to be just outright dominant, then the stats will have to be pristine for said people in order to be satisfied.

I argue that a great majority of folks want pristine or ship his arse out.  However, even those who do not want pristine sometimes fail to see improvement like Garner does.  Either you see it or you don't.

[Dobro]

I thought I explain all this clearly in my post last night?  I guess not, but if I saw no improvement, I'd approach him about injury, same as Garner did with Lance Berkman.  It is no different for any player on the team. However, what you call improvement and what a manager calls improvement are two distinctly different things.  Fans see stats (or results), managers see whether the improvement is in the approach and attitude.  Stats will fall in line soon enough, unless one is looking for Lidge to be just outright dominant, then the stats will have to be pristine for said people in order to be satisfied.

I argue that a great majority of folks want pristine or ship his arse out.  However, even those who do not want pristine sometimes fail to see improvement like Garner does.  Either you see it or you don't.

Noe, you didn't really answer the question.  You've simply stated that you would "approach him about injury."     Do you not think they've already discussed this with Lidge?   

[Noe]

Noe, you didn't really answer the question.

What would I do?  Approach him about injury.  Why is *that* not an answer?  Now you answer my question: Do you see improvement or lack thereof either better or worse than Garner?

You've simply stated that you would "approach him about injury."     Do you not think they've already discussed this with Lidge?   

I don't know what they've done.  You asked me what would *I* do.  If you don't like my answer, why do you ask me?

[Dobro]

What would I do?  Approach him about injury.  Why is *that* not an answer?

Because it has already been established that they have discussed injury with Lidge and injury is not an issue.  But you would "approach him about injury" anyway?  OK, nothing wrong with being thorough.  Now, when Lidge tells you again that he is healthy, how do you proceed?

Now you answer my question: Do you see improvement or lack thereof either better or worse than Garner?

Would you rephrase your question? 

[Noe]

Because it has already been established that they have discussed injury with Lidge and injury is not an issue.

You know something I don't.

But you would "approach him about injury" anyway?

The inconsistency in his one pitch to the next would lead me, as a manager to approach him.  Yes.  (It is what you asked me).

OK, nothing wrong with being thorough.

I'm sure Garner would appreciate to hear that from fans every once and awhile.  Cool.

Now, when Lidge tells you again that he is healthy, how do you proceed?

Run him out there again to see if work will give him the experience he needs in game situations to correct his inconsistency.  Hey, guess what!  That's what they're doing!  Go figure.

Would you rephrase your question? 

Nah, not important.  If you don't want to answer, it's cool.

[Dobro]

Run him out there again to see if work will give him the experience he needs in game situations to correct his inconsistency.  Hey, guess what!  That's what they're doing!  Go figure.

He had the entire 2006 season to correct his inconsistency.  At what point do you pull the plug?

Nah, not important.  If you don't want to answer, it's cool.

Yes, I do want to answer.  I just simply did not understand the question.

[Noe]

He had the entire 2006 season to correct his inconsistency.  At what point do you pull the plug?

If I were Garner or if I were just me?  I can't really say for Garner, he may do it tomorrow for all I know (which not much apparently).  But if I were me running the club, certainly not after last night.  I'd like to wait until about Memorial Day to have a great sampling for this year as to Lidge's ability to climb out of this.  It would be irrational to make a move today.

And this argument about 2006 is not entirely baseless, never said it was.  However just like Mark Buerhle had an awful 2006 season, his turnaround this season seems to be going fine.  However can you guarantee me that come Septemeber Buerhle will still maintain his good performance overall?  No, I don't think so.  I think his great season so far is just an indication that waiting on talented men to straighten themselves out is a good thing.  But time will tell this year for both Buerhle and Lidge.  Both may be fine when all is said and done or both may be through and traded for their own sake.  I don't know.  I just know that making fan-like statements of "one good/one bad" due to this year's sampling to see if they've made improvements is being reactionary right now.

He had a bad night last night for the first time that I've seen him pitch *this year*.  That doesn't derail me as a manager to keep running him out there to really get a good sampling of whether he's done or not.  Not yet.  But if I were prone to being Dobro and I ran this team, after Opening Day I probably would've shut him down.

Right?

That is where we are different and there is nothing wrong with that.

Yes, I do want to answer.  I just simply did not understand the question.

Not important.

[Dobro]

But if I were prone to being Dobro and I ran this team, after Opening Day I probably would've shut him down.

Right?

No, if I were pulling the strings and I made the decision to keep him around for 2007, I would certainly extend his leash beyond Opening Day.  After last night, he would not pitch in any close games.  With that in mind, I would get him as much work as I could between now and June 1.  If something miraculous had not happened by June 1, he would be gone.

[Waldo]

I just don't think it all boils down to what we've seen this year.  It's not like Lidge was on a different team last year and now the Astros are hoping to turn him around with a different philosophy.  They had a front row seat, and even with a new pitching coach his performance has not been better (so far) and Garner has not really treated him any differently.

That said, I think Memorial Day is a good checkpoint for evaluation, but how do you evaluate him?  Surely it cannot be based solely on a pitch-by-pitch analysis.  The Astros cannot say, "Well, your pitches look okay, but I'll be darned if you have some poor luck out there.  So keep up the good work."  Results (or lack thereof) have to come into play sometime.

[Noe]

No, if I were pulling the strings and I made the decision to keep him around for 2007, I would certainly extend his leash beyond Opening Day.  After last night, he would not pitch in any close games.  With that in mind, I would get him as much work as I could between now and June 1.  If something miraculous had not happened by June 1, he would be gone.

Cool.  I think that is extremely fair.  However, what needs to be clear is that what your expectations of a turnaround for Lidge may be different than that of Garner and other folks.  We all have different levels of expectations for players.  I know you've stated that since he makes 5 mil, he should perform like a 5 mil reliever.  I assume that means more than just good, he has to turnaround and be great.  Fair enough.

So right now, he's not meeting your expectations.  My expectation may be that I'd like to see consistency as step 1, even if it means just being good for a good long while.  Because I want to see the Astros win ballgames and a good Lidge will help... his salary be damned.

So therein is where we can have common ground and then not have common ground.  We agree on the timetable, we probably disagree on the level of performance expectation.  Is that fair to say?

[Noe]

That said, I think Memorial Day is a good checkpoint for evaluation, but how do you evaluate him?

EGGSZACTLY!  Therein is the disconnect with most of us when discussing Lidge. How indeed do you evaluate him?  Stats, observation, dominance, must be a closer if he's paid 5 mil else he must be shipped out... what exactly is the criteria for us to say he's okay?  And that is just the results aspect, what is the best way to evaluate improvement on a daily basis?  Stats, good luck/bad luck meter, fastball location, speed, stuff, pitches, he gives up a single ever inning, he doesn't give up a single every inning, he walks too many, he strikes out too many, what?  Last year, in 2006, the amount of strikeouts for Lidge were ungodly good.  But that is when folks say he had a horrible year.  So see the dilema of criteria here?  Same with 32 saves last year.  Good or bad?

[Waldo]

So see the dilema of criteria here?

The deck is stacked against both Lidge and the Astros.  They can't not pitch him - he'll get rusty and the chances he turns it around go even lower.  They can't pitch him only in blowouts - how many of those have there been?  How many will there be?  But with each time they throw him out there, they run the risk of an implosion on the mound and the game ending up in jeopardy.  And at the same time, the pressure is on Lidge to turn in good performances in very small sample sizes.  That he walked two out of three batters did not help his cause; that he gave up a 3-run bomb and another subsequent double was even worse.

I don't necessarily agree with the "four-run lead" argument in favor of letting him pitch to Fielder, because if the worst-case scenario pans out (which it did), then one swing of the bat ties the game after that.  Two batters later, one swing of the bat could've lost the game.

So where do they go from here?  I think the Astros have no choice but to pitch Lidge, and they will, even if it's about as painful as tasting my dad's peanut butter soup.  But I think Lidge has to pitch well and have that reflected in his stats.  Even if he is consistently throwing great sliders, he is no good to the Astros if his fantastic pitches are landing 350 feet away.

[Noe]

The deck is stacked against both Lidge and the Astros.  They can't not pitch him - he'll get rusty and the chances he turns it around go even lower.  They can't pitch him only in blowouts - how many of those have there been?  How many will there be?  But with each time they throw him out there, they run the risk of an implosion on the mound and the game ending up in jeopardy.  And at the same time, the pressure is on Lidge to turn in good performances in very small sample sizes.  That he walked two out of three batters did not help his cause; that he gave up a 3-run bomb and another subsequent double was even worse.

I don't necessarily agree with the "four-run lead" argument in favor of letting him pitch to Fielder, because if the worst-case scenario pans out (which it did), then one swing of the bat ties the game after that.  Two batters later, one swing of the bat could've lost the game.

So where do they go from here?  I think the Astros have no choice but to pitch Lidge, and they will, even if it's about as painful as tasting my dad's peanut butter soup.  But I think Lidge has to pitch well and have that reflected in his stats.  Even if he is consistently throwing great sliders, he is no good to the Astros if his fantastic pitches are landing 350 feet away.

I agree.  However utimately it has to be a melding of all criteria to me to make a sound evaluation.  Lidge can conversely throw some sloppy crap up there and have guys hit atom balls for the rest of the month.  That translates into a 0.00 ERA and some nice stats.  But my eyes told me "oh-oh, he's getting worse".  So what do I trust?

[Fredia]

Seriously, is there anything more to say about the whole Lidge deal other than that he has no business receiving money in exchange for pitching baseballs anymore? I honestly believe he would struggle on the AA level at this point.

maybe time to move on to greener grass. i know with the contract lidge has it is probably not going to happen, but even with the interviews and all the tweaking to try to get h im back to form at least once an hour every hour of every day the famous home run he gave up seems to be out there on some sports show or other. i have no ideal if it is menatl or physcial it just seems it is not going to get better as long as he is an astro. he has been given way to many chances. can you imagine what it would have done to the team had he blew it and the craig biggio grand slam went for naught

[Waldo]

I agree.  However utimately it has to be a melding of all criteria to me to make a sound evaluation.  Lidge can conversely throw some sloppy crap up there and have guys hit atom balls for the rest of the month.  That translates into a 0.00 ERA and some nice stats.  But my eyes told me "oh-oh, he's getting worse".  So what do I trust?

Notice that I said he has to pitch well in addition to having good stats.

Last night he was throwing crappy pitches and had a 23.67 ERA for the game.  In a perfect world, he would start throwing his 04/05 slider and fastball again AND have a 0.00 ERA.  Anywhere in the middle of that spectrum is where it gets a lot muddier, and I honestly don't think any of us has a good answer for what to do then.

[Noe]

Notice that I said he has to pitch well in addition to having good stats.

Last night he was throwing crappy pitches and had a 23.67 ERA for the game.  In a perfect world, he would start throwing his 04/05 slider and fastball again AND have a 0.00 ERA.  Anywhere in the middle of that spectrum is where it gets a lot muddier, and I honestly don't think any of us has a good answer for what to do then.

I agree.  We don't have the answer to that, but the Astros do.  It has been hinted at by Lidge himself "I don't really care where I pitch, as long as we're winning".  That is my point.  Last night the team won, but today we're acting as if it were a loss.

Has Lidge been elevated to such a status as a pariah that we have to go through this... even when they win?  It seems to be the case now.  So I'll say it again, he's not allowed *one bad night*.

[JimR]

Seriously, is there anything more to say about the whole Lidge deal other than that he has no business receiving money in exchange for pitching baseballs anymore? I honestly believe he would struggle on the AA level at this point.

unfuckingbelievable. you belong in the national media, and that is not a compliment.

[Sambito]

The problem is that tonight was the ideal chance for him to work on "finding his scheme" since he had a FUCKIN FOUR RUN LEAD with only three outs left.

If he can't handle pitching in the ninth with a cushion that big, what use is he? What value does he have to the team?

I've repeatedly stuck my neck out for Lidge by defending him to all my friends and co-workers who bash him, but he's making a fool out of those of us who do. I badly want Lidge to succeed and prove all the doubters wrong, but not at the expense of the team.

This isn't about you and your friends.  This isn't about what you think... It appears
to be exactly about your reaction to recent events.... I cant stand the notion that we
are pleased as punch with him in the early part of his career and now after some adversity he is shit and hurting the team.  I don't buy that.

We would all like him to perform, no one is denying he isn't... the question becomes what is the best way to help him and the team on their path... It is too easy to take a front-running, reactionary approach to Lidge... I know this because I do it myself....
Noe has made a good point, the astros are better with Lidge on the roster period!

How do we know that these early problems aren't going to lead to future strengths?

[Mr. Happy]

Seriously, is there anything more to say about the whole Lidge deal other than that he has no business receiving money in exchange for pitching baseballs anymore? I honestly believe he would struggle on the AA level at this point.

This is dumn overflowing.

[Zan]

This is dumn overflowing.

It was dumb, and I overstated my point.