Biggio on Fire

[Limey]

Eschewing walks as he is, he seems hell-bent on getting to 3k sometime in June.  Putting aside the widespread desire to see him get to that milestone, I like the idea of getting it out of the way...certainly before the trade deadline at the end of July.  That way, the team can evaluate its options and perhaps make a deal (no, I'm not suggesting they trade Biggio) that strengthens the team, unencumbered by the need to force Biggio in the starting line up.

Of course, if he keeps hitting like this, Burke's going to have another year to endure in the wilderness.

[Mr. Happy]

Eschewing walks as he is, he seems hell-bent on getting to 3k sometime in June.  Putting aside the widespread desire to see him get to that milestone, I like the idea of getting it out of the way...certainly before the trade deadline at the end of July.  That way, the team can evaluate its options and perhaps make a deal (no, I'm not suggesting they trade Biggio) that strengthens the team, unencumbered by the need to force Biggio in the starting line up.

Of course, if he keeps hitting like this, Burke's going to have another year to endure in the wilderness.

Biggio is hitting mistakes. He's looked bad on the breaking balls. This season has gotta be it for him as an everyday player.

[Foghorn]

Eschewing walks as he is, he seems hell-bent on getting to 3k sometime in June.  Putting aside the widespread desire to see him get to that milestone, I like the idea of getting it out of the way...certainly before the trade deadline at the end of July.  That way, the team can evaluate its options and perhaps make a deal (no, I'm not suggesting they trade Biggio) that strengthens the team, unencumbered by the need to force Biggio in the starting line up.

Of course, if he keeps hitting like this, Burke's going to have another year to endure in the wilderness.

Biggio shouldn't be hitting leadoff all year if his OBP is under .300.  I think he has yet to draw a walk this season.

[Limey]

Biggio shouldn't be hitting leadoff all year if his OBP is under .300.  I think he has yet to draw a walk this season.

Correct, he's not walked and I think it's going to be a long time before he gets one (or Cincy pitching so bad that even he can't swing at 4 of 'em).  Bad idea for a lead-off guy, but these decisions are being driven by the race for 3,000, not the need to win ballgames.  Hence my preference that this is over asap so they can get back to making baseball decisions.

[Mr. Happy]

Correct, he's not walked and I think it's going to be a long time before he gets one (or Cincy pitching so bad that even he can't swing at 4 of 'em).  Bad idea for a lead-off guy, but these decisions are being driven by the race for 3,000, not the need to win ballgames.  Hence my preference that this is over asap so they can get back to making baseball decisions.

Amen. Amen I say. Drop him to sixth when this is done. Or better yet get Loretta those AB's on the road.

[ASTROCREEP]

Correct, he's not walked and I think it's going to be a long time before he gets one (or Cincy pitching so bad that even he can't swing at 4 of 'em).  Bad idea for a lead-off guy, but these decisions are being driven by the race for 3,000, not the need to win ballgames.  Hence my preference that this is over asap so they can get back to making baseball decisions.

Who should lead off?

[Fredia]

sadly to say Biggio will continue to lead off as long as that sing ticks off the hits . its a draw and people (at least the fans i know ) are trying to figure out and buy tickets to the game where it will happen. He is a marval that he has played so consistently for one team, but that said at what point would his play (hitting) get so bad or inconsistent that they would set him down

[mihoba]

Bad idea for a lead-off guy, but these decisions are being driven by the race for 3,000, not the need to win ballgames.  Hence my preference that this is over asap so they can get back to making baseball decisions.

I think this is bullshit Limey. He is the best option the Astros have as a leadoff hitter. Does ANYONE here think that if Biggio was sucking and he didn't think he could contribute, that he wouldn't sit himself down? He is and has always been team first, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned that.

[MRaup]

Tavares was the best leadoff hitter the Good Guys have had in recent memory... Which isn't saying much, really. Bidge is definately the best they have in my not-so-humble opinion. Maybe they should move Ensberg to leadoff, since we're suddenly so worried about OBP!

[Astroholic]

I think this is bullshit Limey. He is the best option the Astros have as a leadoff hitter. Does ANYONE here think that if Biggio was sucking and he didn't think he could contribute, that he wouldn't sit himself down? He is and has always been team first, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned that.

I do not think he would sit himself down.  If so, he would have do it in the second half of last year.

[Kean]

new poster, everyone, but old-time lurker

Maybe they should move Ensberg to leadoff, since we're suddenly so worried about OBP!

at least, with ~20 ab's in the 5 and 2 spot, he's been better in the middle of the order:

Avg - G - AB - R - H - 2B - 3B- HR - RBI- BB - K - OBP - Slg - OPS
#2
.190 5 21 6 4 1 0 1 3 2 4 .261 .381 .642

#5
.364 6 22 4 8 1 0 0 2 3 5 .440 .409 .849

(Stats from SI.com:
sportsillustrated.cnn.com...plits.html
)

so actually moving Ensberg to the 2-spot has taken away what was left of his magical power to get on base.

Has anyone seen enough games of him at the 2 to notice a difference in his approach, or what kinds of pitches he gets?

[MRaup]

Damn Clarks, making me look stupid. I'm gonna haze you good!

new poster, everyone, but old-time lurker

at least, with ~20 ab's in the 5 and 2 spot, he's been better in the middle of the order:

Avg - G - AB - R - H - 2B - 3B- HR - RBI- BB - K - OBP - Slg - OPS
#2
.190 5 21 6 4 1 0 1 3 2 4 .261 .381 .642

#5
.364 6 22 4 8 1 0 0 2 3 5 .440 .409 .849

(Stats from SI.com:
sportsillustrated.cnn.com...plits.html
)

so actually moving Ensberg to the 2-spot has taken away what was left of his magical power to get on base.

Has anyone seen enough games of him at the 2 to notice a difference in his approach, or what kinds of pitches he gets?

[Astroholic]

Damn Clarks, making me look stupid. I'm gonna haze you good!

There is a first time for everything.  Good post "clark".

[Noe]

Has anyone seen enough games of him at the 2 to notice a difference in his approach, or what kinds of pitches he gets?

If you read the "Austin Whines About Astros Coverage" threads in here, it's a wonder some of us get to watch Houston Astros baseball at all!  Damn communist TWC!  Ahem... I digress.

The short answer is no, I haven't seen enough to notice anything.  But if we can go with small sample size observation (ie: one game) it did seem as if he was trying to swing level and stay on the ball longer.  It looked from where I was sitting far away in my couch that he wasn't trying to do too much with the ball but put a good solid contact swing on the pitch.  And if I remember correctly, he was 3 for 4 with three solid line drive singles in that game (Saturday).  The night before, he aired it out as a #2 hitter and got a huge three run dinger out of it.  Very Mark Loretta-ish of him to swing with contact in mind.

Thing is, they already have a Mark Loretta on the team and if said Loretta can play third base adequately and you need a #2 hitter, it would be better to sit Mo and give Mark that playing time.  I am just not convinced that contact is what the issue here as much as it is Garner experimenting just a tad.

Mo belongs in the five hole if he is to help this club win.  If they need a #2 hitter who plays third base, then Mark Loretta is your man.

[Kean]

Damn Clarks, making me look stupid. I'm gonna haze you good!

I suppose the honeymoon's over after just 1 post.

[Astroholic]

Mo belongs in the five hole if he is to help this club win.  If they need a #2 hitter who plays third base, then Mark Loretta is your man.

Here we go again.

[pravata]

new poster, everyone, but old-time lurker

at least, with ~20 ab's in the 5 and 2 spot, he's been better in the middle of the order:

Avg - G - AB - R - H - 2B - 3B- HR - RBI- BB - K - OBP - Slg - OPS
#2
.190 5 21 6 4 1 0 1 3 2 4 .261 .381 .642

#5
.364 6 22 4 8 1 0 0 2 3 5 .440 .409 .849

(Stats from SI.com:
sportsillustrated.cnn.com...plits.html
)

so actually moving Ensberg to the 2-spot has taken away what was left of his magical power to get on base.

Has anyone seen enough games of him at the 2 to notice a difference in his approach, or what kinds of pitches he gets?

He had the 3 hit day hitting 5th v the lefthander Hamels and had 3 walks in the 5th spot v FL.  Those games skew the numbers.  I think it's too early to start watching his stats.  I think Garner might be loosely starting him in the 2 v. righthanders.  But, again, too early.  I don't see that his approach changes and I've seen quotes where he says he approaches his abs the same in the 5 or the 2.  

[JimR]

I think this is bullshit Limey. He is the best option the Astros have as a leadoff hitter. Does ANYONE here think that if Biggio was sucking and he didn't think he could contribute, that he wouldn't sit himself down? He is and has always been team first, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned that.

i disagree with the notion that he has always been team first and would sit himself down.

[Rebel Jew]

i disagree with the notion that he has always been team first and would sit himself down.

i agree with jim.  there's a difference between actuallyt being team first, and merely doing and saying things that get credited by the jock-sniffing media as being a "team-first attitude".

[mihoba]

i disagree with the notion that he has always been team first and would sit himself down.

I honestly think he would sit down if it got bad enough. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope we never find out. The team first statement in large part is his position changes over the years, moving where he was needed. He may have grumbled, but he chose to stay and do the best he could. In this day and age of so many seemingly selfish players, that goes a long way with me.

[Ty in Tampa]

I suppose the honeymoon's over after just 1 post.

If he hazes you, he likes you. You didn't get a 'run along' so you're good.

[Astroholic]

I honestly think he would sit down if it got bad enough. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope we never find out. The team first statement in large part is his position changes over the years, moving where he was needed. He may have grumbled, but he chose to stay and do the best he could. In this day and age of so many seemingly selfish players, that goes a long way with me.

How far does he have to slump before you think he will pull himself out.  Changing positions helped the team, but he was still playing everyday.  I really like Biggio, but I don't think he is the person you are making him out to be.

[JimR]

I honestly think he would sit down if it got bad enough. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope we never find out. The team first statement in large part is his position changes over the years, moving where he was needed. He may have grumbled, but he chose to stay and do the best he could. In this day and age of so many seemingly selfish players, that goes a long way with me.

he was a major cancer on the team for Dierker. if they asked him to move positions, what can he say? i agree he did it without complaining, and that goes a long way for me too.

i'm just saying that there is no way in hell he would sit himself down before 3000.

[Astroholic]

he was a major cancer on the team for Dierker. if they asked him to move positions, what can he say? i agree he did it without complaining, and that goes a long way for me too.

He did it without complaining to the media (which is the way it should be), who knows what goes on behind closed doors?

[Kean]

Thanks, Ty. I'm well aware of the 'post less, read more' survival guide to the TZ. I must have been playing possum, or maybe it's a beaten-down, cornered attitude of having been married twice. (oh, and I'm still a gamer, both in marriage and here)


I can't stand to see Ensberg in the 2, but am intensely curious as to how effective he is there. I agree with Pravata, looking back, realizing it's too early to use stats.

[pravata]

I honestly think he would sit down if it got bad enough. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope we never find out. The team first statement in large part is his position changes over the years, moving where he was needed. He may have grumbled, but he chose to stay and do the best he could. In this day and age of so many seemingly selfish players, that goes a long way with me.

Biggio was going into a contract year when they signed Kent.  Hunsicker wanted to play the season out to see what would happen.  However, couple days after Kent, Biggio had a contract extension.  Something happened.  Nontheless, he played CF, not well but he did it without any complaints being heard by the fans.  Or any change in his demeanor.  The problem with trying to decide whether Biggio would sit himself if he thought he was hurting the team, up to this point his playing never has hurt the team.  I can see an argument coming for last half 2006, but it's a new thing to get used to.

[JimR]

He did it without complaining to the media (which is the way it should be), who knows what goes on behind closed doors?

because i would hear about it, and i did not.

[mihoba]

i'm just saying that there is no way in hell he would sit himself down before 3000.

I assumed this entire thread was about after he reached the milestone. No wonder you folks think I'm nuts right about now!

[pravata]

I assumed this entire thread was about after he reached the milestone. No wonder you folks think I'm nuts right about now!

That's the other thing I'm hearing, not from you, "hope Biggio gets to 3000 quick so he'll sit down".  If he gets to 3000 quick that means he's hitting.  Wanting him to sit sounds like some other agenda.

[JimR]

That's the other thing I'm hearing, not from you, "hope Biggio gets to 3000 quick so he'll sit down".  If he gets to 3000 quick that means he's hitting.  Wanting him to sit sounds like some other agenda.

and stupid

[Astroholic]

because i would hear about it, and i did not.

Sorry, forgot you are an insider of some sorts.

[JimR]

Sorry, forgot you are an insider of some sorts.

no, i am not. i know a couple, though.

[Astroholic]

no, i am not. i know a couple, though.

Yep, that is what I meant.  Not trying to grind an axe with you.

[Noe]

Here we go again.

Not really.  I was merely talking about approach and if MoBerg wants to be Mark Loretta, then fine... but Mark Loretta already exist and he's sitting over there near the stick horse.

[Curly]

Biggio is hitting mistakes. He's looked bad on the breaking balls. This season has gotta be it for him as an everyday player.

That's why mistakes are mistakes and good pitches are good pitches.  Just hope there's one mistake before 3 good pitches.

[pravata]

That's why mistakes are mistakes and good pitches are good pitches.  Just hope there's one mistake before 3 good pitches.

Bagwell was a mistake hitter too.

[JimR]

Bagwell was a mistake hitter too.

i never thought that was a criticism, either.

[Ty in Tampa]

Bagwell was a mistake hitter too.

Good pitchers make less mistakes. I thought that's how it worked.

[Froback]

Bagwell was a mistake hitter too.

Most hitters (if not all) should be good mistake hitters to get the the ML.
The good to great hitters are those that can also hit the pitches that were not mistakes.

Then you get the real odd balls that hit bad pitches too, see Vlad and Yogi.

[Curly]

Good pitchers make less mistakes. I thought that's how it worked.

Good hitters put good pitches into play and make pitchers pay for mistakes...and hey, if they can only do that thirty percent of the time then please put them on my team.

[Limey]

I think this is bullshit Limey. He is the best option the Astros have as a leadoff hitter. Does ANYONE here think that if Biggio was sucking and he didn't think he could contribute, that he wouldn't sit himself down? He is and has always been team first, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned that.

I think you're missing my point.  The Astros would be making different choices in the make up of the team, IMHO, if the need to get Biggio in the line up every day wasn't there.  For example, they probably wouldn't have looked for a solid back-up like Loretta during the offseason as Burke would be at least platooning with Biggio while someone else - perhaps someone with the skills to lead off - would be in centre field.

I'm not saying that what's happening shouldn't be happening.  I'm just saying that we're stuck with Burke's scary CFing until Biggio his #3,000.  then maybe Loretta or Lane (please please please please please please please please) gets traded for a proper CFer and Burke platoons outfield and infield spots as necessary.

Savvie?

[mihoba]

I think you're missing my point. 

I did, as usual.

Savvie?

Yep.

[subnuclear]

I'm not saying that what's happening shouldn't be happening.  I'm just saying that we're stuck with Burke's scary CFing until Biggio his #3,000.  then maybe Loretta or Lane (please please please please please please please please) gets traded for a proper CFer and Burke platoons outfield and infield spots as necessary.

Why not just trade Chris Burke instead?   If you can't get one for him, what makes you can get one for Lane or Loretta?

[Foghorn]

I'm surprised Biggio isn't given a solid dose of off-speed pitches low and away until he shows an ability to let 4 of them go passed in a single AB.  

If/when Biggio gets his 3000 hits AND is still supporting an OBP under .300, I'd be all for Loretta getting a shot at hitting leadoff.  His OBP has consistantly been in the .350 range, even after his late career power spike has gone away.

[Curly]

I'm surprised Biggio isn't given a solid dose of off-speed pitches low and away until he shows an ability to let 4 of them go passed in a single AB.  

If/when Biggio gets his 3000 hits AND is still supporting an OBP under .300, I'd be all for Loretta getting a shot at hitting leadoff.  His OBP has consistantly been in the .350 range, even after his late career power spike has gone away.

  Sliders low and away always seem to be on the menu for #5 and #7 with a two strike count.  If my 7 year old is calling the the final dagger then there's problems.

[Limey]

Why not just trade Chris Burke instead?   If you can't get one for him, what makes you can get one for Lane or Loretta?

I am presuming (and when you presume you make an ass out of "u" and...erm...the pres?) that Burke is still the 2Ber in waiting.  He's in CF currently so that they don't have to trade (or waive) him, while Bidge goes for his hits.  If you trade Burke, you need another solution for 2B in 2007 and beyond.  Loretta, on the other hand, becomes expendable after #3,000 because Burke becomes the utility infielder and the club really does need a proper CFer.  Lane is expendable...period.

I was just trying to point out that Bidge's chase handcuffs the organisation somewhat as to personnel decisions.  Once 3,000 is reached, the cuffs come off.

[ASTROCREEP]

I think you're missing my point.  The Astros would be making different choices in the make up of the team, IMHO, if the need to get Biggio in the line up every day wasn't there.  For example, they probably wouldn't have looked for a solid back-up like Loretta during the offseason as Burke would be at least platooning with Biggio while someone else - perhaps someone with the skills to lead off - would be in centre field.

I'm not saying that what's happening shouldn't be happening.  I'm just saying that we're stuck with Burke's scary CFing until Biggio his #3,000.  then maybe Loretta or Lane (please please please please please please please please) gets traded for a proper CFer and Burke platoons outfield and infield spots as necessary.

Savvie?

The Astros will need Loretta next year, when they finally realize Burke is not the great Biggio replacement that they thought he was.

[Limey]

The Astros will need Loretta next year, when the Astros finally realize Burke is not the great Biggio replacement that they thought he was.

Entirely possible, but I think Burke's defense is decent at 2B (as opposed to SS), so it's a question of whether and where he can contribute in the lineup.  In the meantime, they've parked Burke in CF until Biggio vacates 2B.

[homer]

Loretta, on the other hand, becomes expendable after #3,000 because Burke becomes the utility infielder

what the fuck are you talking about?

[Limey]

what the fuck are you talking about?

Tradable.  Better?  I'm mean that if the team can be improved by, for example, trading for a CFer / lead-off hitter, then Loretta would be an attractive return in trade.  Gotta give something to get something.

[homer]

Tradable.  Better?  I'm mean that if the team can be improved by, for example, trading for a CFer / lead-off hitter, then Loretta would be an attractive return in trade.  Gotta give something to get something.

Maybe Loretta is tradable, but Burke is the utility infielder? Not likely.

[Limey]

Maybe Loretta is tradable, but Burke is the utility infielder? Not likely.

Lamb has 1st and 3rd covered.  If they'll play Loretta at SS, then they'll play Burke at SS.  I'd like to keep Loretta, but I'd also like to see a proper CFer out there.  Maybe they tread water waiting for Pence, who knows.  I'm just prattling...

[Dobro]

I think many of you are going to be very shocked when Biggio gets 3000 and his role on the team doesn't change much. 

[Foghorn]

I think many of you are going to be very shocked when Biggio gets 3000 and his role on the team doesn't change much. 

Shocked?  No.

Disappointed?  Yes.

[JimR]

I think many of you are going to be very shocked when Biggio gets 3000 and his role on the team doesn't change much. 

depends on how early he gets it.

[Mr. Happy]

I think many of you are going to be very shocked when Biggio gets 3000 and his role on the team doesn't change much. 

When this chase is over, Biggio becomes a platoon playr, especially on the road, where he really struggled last year.

[Zan]

I honestly think he would sit down if it got bad enough. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope we never find out. The team first statement in large part is his position changes over the years, moving where he was needed. He may have grumbled, but he chose to stay and do the best he could. In this day and age of so many seemingly selfish players, that goes a long way with me.

You may be right in theory, but the problem is that professional athletes are often self-deceived about what constitutes "bad enough." They can always interpret a dip in performance as a slump that they're about to break out of. For the most part, they don't get that far lacking confidence.