Izzy blows another save

[HurricaneDavid]

Cards put up 2 in the 9th to take a 1-run lead in Washington, then Isringhausen gives up 2 walks, a HBP, and a double to lose it.

[otterj]

Izzy: 33 saves in 43 opportunities (77%)

Lidge: 29 saves in 34 opportunities (85%)

[Alkie]

My guess is that Izzy was so devastated by watching Lidge give up that bomb to Pujols last year that he hasn't been the same.

I watched that homerun myself and I have yet to convert a save since.

[JimR]

Izzy needs to trust his stuff and stop tipping pitches.

[Golden Sombrero]

Despite Izzy's less than stellar year the Co-Ards are still comfortably atop the division.

[johnstros]

and what is that supposed to mean?

lidge is having a worse year than izzy

[JimR]

uh, no. he isn't.

[otterj]

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and what is that supposed to mean?

lidge is having a worse year than izzy

It means what it means. Lidge is having a better year converting save opportunties even though his era is higher.

[Alkie]

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Izzy needs to trust his stuff and stop tipping pitches.

Is he tipping his pitches?  I haven't seen a Cards game in what seems like months.  What's he doing?

[Col. Sphinx Drummond]

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Izzy needs to trust his stuff and stop tipping pitches.

Is he tipping his pitches?  I haven't seen a Cards game in what seems like months.  What's he doing?

His stuff has been fucking around and being unfaithful on him. He can't trust his stuff. If he could, he wouldn't be tipping his pitches.

[MikeyBoy]

Izzy has not been the same since the Kent home run. He's done.

[JackAstro]

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My guess is that Izzy was so devastated by watching Lidge give up that bomb to Pujols last year that he hasn't been the same.

I watched that homerun myself and I have yet to convert a save since.

That's funny, I just e-mailed a Cards fan this morning to offer the exact same theory. I've termed it Pujols Walk-Off Dissociative Workplace Disorder, in which 1 in 3 professionals were left emotionally scarred by witnessing the ferociously inconsequential blast. PD leaves the sufferer with the inability to perform job-related tasks at a high level, as their thoughts repeatedly return to the un-series-altering moment. Symptoms include tipping your tasks, stuff-mistrusting, and openly weeping in front of coworkers.

[Alkie]

Fuckin'.  Huge.

[pravata]

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and what is that supposed to mean?

lidge is having a worse year than izzy

It means what it means. Lidge is having a better year converting save opportunties even though his era is higher.

Everyone is of course fully aware of these numbers,

NL closers by the numbers

Reliever, team Saves Opp
Hoffman, Padres 37 41
Wagner, Mets 35 40
Borowski, Marlins 33 38
Isringhausen, Cards 33 43
Lidge, Astros 30 35

Reliever, team Blown saves
Isringhausen, Cards 10
Turnbow, Brewers 8
Benitez, Giants 8
Baez, Braves 8
Weathers, Reds 7
Dempster, Cubs 7
The Link

[Rebel Jew]

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My guess is that Izzy was so devastated by watching Lidge give up that bomb to Pujols last year that he hasn't been the same.

I watched that homerun myself and I have yet to convert a save since.

That's funny, I just e-mailed a Cards fan this morning to offer the exact same theory. I've termed it Pujols Walk-Off Dissociative Workplace Disorder, in which 1 in 3 professionals were left emotionally scarred by witnessing the ferociously inconsequential blast. PD leaves the sufferer with the inability to perform job-related tasks at a high level, as their thoughts repeatedly return to the un-series-altering moment. Symptoms include tipping your tasks, stuff-mistrusting, and openly weeping in front of coworkers.

Has anybody here seen the early Peter Greenaway movie "The Falls?"  If you have, then you understand how this syndrome seems reminiscent of The Violent Unknown Event.

[JackAstro]

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Fuckin'.  Huge.

You wouldn't think so if you've ever had to deal with it. It's no laughing matter. For the longest time, I thought I was alone in this, but seeing Izzy flailing around like a cat having a seizure brings me some comfort. I think all of us lost a little bit of our confidence that day.

It really became clear to me this Sunday. I was hosting a fantasy football draft at my house (you can all keep your judging to yourselves, you lousy anti-fantacrap sons of bitches). The 9th inning of the Mets game on in the background, the unwashed masses launch into the expected discussion of how Lidge is suffering from what they now know to be Pujols Walk-Off Dissociative Workplace Disorder. At first, I tried all of the usual common sense arguments, but ultimately they came back with (and I couldn't be more serious here)...

"But he hit it so hard."

Yes. Yes, he did, I realized. Wait a second, was I... CRYING? What the fuck? And do you know what I did next? I DRAFTED DEION FUCKING BRANCH. Now why in the hell would I go and do something like that? That's right. PD, my friend. PD.

[JackAstro]

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Has anybody here seen the early Peter Greenaway movie "The Falls?"  If you have, then you understand how this syndrome seems reminiscent of The Violent Unknown Event.

I haven't, but it's also reminiscent of the effect of walking in on my parents having sex when I was a kid. We'll just leave at "general performance problems", and move on.

Did Peter Greenaway see the home run? Just curious.

[Golden Sombrero]

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Fuckin'.  Huge.

You wouldn't think so if you've ever had to deal with it. It's no laughing matter. For the longest time, I thought I was alone in this, but seeing Izzy flailing around like a cat having a seizure brings me some comfort. I think all of us lost a little bit of our confidence that day.
...

We all need something to believe in.  Seeing Lidge sink into a half-crouch of defeat before standing to watch the moonshoot disappear on the train tracks resulted in the same empty feeling I had when I learned there was no Santa Claus.  And that happened the day before NLCS game 5.  It was a rotten week.

[johnstros]

and lidge is still not having a better year.  
Lidge is the sun during brushfire season.

Lidge is just not having a good year any way anyone can look at it.  Before, it was bend a bit, but wouldn't quite break.

4 run leads are considered safe territory, anything less is sweat it out time because of the traffic.  add to that inconsistency.  

izzy nor lidge are having good years, but lidge, looking at the overall numbers is worse

one stat doesn't make a pitcher, and no matter how many saves Lidge ends up this season with compared to X pitcher, he has not had a good season.  

   

[Ty in Tampa]

Bravo. Absolutely stellar fucking analysis.

[johnstros]

hey thanks man

[astrojo]

i think his sarc-o-meter is broken.

[JimR]

crazy talk.

how many games has Izzy LOST? do they count for anything? how many saves has he blown? the number of saves and blown saves certainly do matter. that is why they are in the game.

[johnstros]

4, depends, 10

blown saves mean something, but to compare lidge and izzy just on blown saves is not the absolute indicator on who is better.  

85% to 77%...?, isn't much of a difference.  

and possibly, who cares because as said before, the cardinals are atop the division.  

Lidge needs to be good, the margin of error for Izzy is somewhat more, but possibly that is a flawed argument.  

it's like the formula the astros had for winning last season, great pitching, so so hitting.  something else makes up for weakness.  the cards can afford izzy being soso...  

but i would be surprised that Lidge gets the opportunity to match izzy's blown saves number.  Garner doesn't have that luxury to throw him out there and let him ruin the scoreboard.  I don't exactly know, but maybe why izzy has more blown saves than lidge was because he could?  lidge was taken out of the closers role before he could do more damage.  if izzy blows a save, cardinals still have the division lead.  

playoff time, i'm not sure this is the same argument...      

[JackAstro]

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4, depends, 10

Actually, Isringhausen has 8 losses, not 4. And it doesn't depend... they all definitely count.

[johnstros]

for lidge, does it count that he is inconsistent?  does it count that he has blown saves?  does it matter that his ERA is high?  and how does all that matter?  What has mattered more?  LIdge's problems or izzy?  are only wins and losses the only problem?  do the pitching coaches only look at wins and losses and evaluate a player?  Does the team only look at the number of saves to evaluate a pitcher?  can it help a pitcher throw his slider better, get more people out?  

And what are we going to do about any of this?  what do you think the coaching staff is going to do?    how will they change the situation?  what other issues may they have?

[Alkie]

Brad Lidge has appeared in 67 games, in which he accounted for the blown save, loss, or both in 7 of those (10.4%).  

Jason Isringhausen has appeared in 59 games, in which he accounted for the blown save, loss, or both in 13 of those games (22.0%).

If you base your decision on that information, Jason Isringhausen is a joke.

I think what most Astros fans remember is this stat, though:

Izzy has given up a run in 15 appearances...however, Brad Lidge has given up a run in 26 of them.

Since their job is to "help the team win the game" and not "be perfect", I'm not sure I see how you can claim Lidge has been worse for his team as a closer than Izzy.

[Ty in Tampa]

Are you on crack, meth or acid? I'm having a hard time figuring it out.

[johnstros]

which one do you think?  I'm surprised you spent some time thinking about that.

[Alkie]

Let me ask you this:  are you trying to argue "Brad Lidge sucks!" or are you trying to argue "Brad Lidge is worse than Jason Isringhausen!"?

Izzy blows a save or loses a game for his team in almost 1 in every 4 games he appears.  Brad Lidge has blown a save or taken a loss in 1 of every 10 games he has appeared in.

[stubbyc]

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Brad Lidge has appeared in 67 games, in which he accounted for the blown save, loss, or both in 7 of those (10.4%).  

Jason Isringhausen has appeared in 59 games, in which he accounted for the blown save, loss, or both in 13 of those games (22.0%).

If you base your decision on that information, Jason Isringhausen is a joke.

I think what most Astros fans remember is this stat, though:

Izzy has given up a run in 15 appearances...however, Brad Lidge has given up a run in 26 of them.

Since their job is to "help the team win the game" and not "be perfect", I'm not sure I see how you can claim Lidge has been worse for his team as a closer than Izzy.

Which doesn't take into account for the games that Miller, Wheeler, or whoever came in when it looked like Lidge was about to blow it. Don't get me wrong though, I'd much rather have Lidge than Isringhausen.

[pravata]

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...what are we going to do about any of this?  what do you think the coaching staff is going to do?    how will they change the situation?  what other issues may they have?

We? We are going to whine like a bunch of nancy boys because a team of grown men we don't even know won't win a game normally played by children so that we can strut around proclaiming we are the Astros.  We aren't going to do jack.  The Astros, on the other hand, are trying to get Lidge to keep his lead shoulder closed and stride towards the plate in his delivery.

[johnstros]

both.

main argument is lidge is having a worse year than izzy.
 
Lidge is doing a better job in helping his team, but i doubt anyone feels too comfortable when he goes out to pitch.  men on base is usually the norm this year, and even if they don't score, a couple of inches left or right, and the game is different.  games don't usually end with a strikeout, they end with the ball being poked around somewhere...          

however, I should stop now, it is not a good argument to try and back up.  in my opinion, the argument should be that both izzy and lidge are not having good years.  

[MusicMan]

Apparently Izzy had not been letting on that he was hurt:

 The Link

[johnstros]

i wonder why?  

is it because fans like the strikeouts?  I can't imagine anything better in the baseball world than seeing Lidge striking out the side.

izzy's best years to lidge's best?  I think that I had some pretty high expectations after two years of dominance, but who cares what I think.  has izzy been a consistent closer over the years?  I'm not looking at the stats, but the cardinals keep him in the role and haven't seemed to want to change their minds. i mean he has had tenure for quite a long time in a good organization.  that isn't easy to do....    

Lidge has the potential to be better than izzy.  but potential doesn't mean much when it is never realized.  

I like everyone else hope lidge corrects his mechanics.

[pravata]

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Apparently Izzy had not been letting on that he was hurt:

 The Link

Reading the article, and from other stuff I've seen, I think they knew he was having trouble.  Apparently it has become unmanageable recently.  Nonetheless, it has affected his mechanics all season,

"The problematic hip is causing what Duncan called "instability" in Isringhausen's mechanics. As he plants his left foot, his leg buckles, sometimes harshly, making it difficult to throw a pitch low in the zone or get the expected movement."

It all manifests in, no matter the cause, mechanics.  Cardinals are going to be real different next season.

[johnstros]

JDJO reporting, joke or real?

"Nobody in here ever lost confidence in Brad as far as his stuff goes," Lance Berkman said. "We knew that he just needed to kind of get right mentally. I think that's really been the issue with Brad when he has struggled. As soon as he has regained confidence in his stuff, he has been very good."

 link

[tophfar]

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but i would be surprised that Lidge gets the opportunity to match izzy's blown saves number.  Garner doesn't have that luxury to throw him out there and let him ruin the scoreboard.  I don't exactly know, but maybe why izzy has more blown saves than lidge was because he could?  lidge was taken out of the closers role before he could do more damage.  

i'm guessing that you haven't noticed that for someone not being "the closer", lidge has been appearing in an alot of games in close and late situations.

i'm just saying, is all.

[Bench]

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JDJO reporting, joke or real?

"Nobody in here ever lost confidence in Brad as far as his stuff goes," Lance Berkman said. "We knew that he just needed to kind of get right mentally. I think that's really been the issue with Brad when he has struggled. As soon as he has regained confidence in his stuff, he has been very good."

 link

Followed directly by the next paragraph:

 

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Lidge would argue that his problems this year have been mechanical instead of mental, but he has enough of a pulse on the clubhouse to realize Berkman wasn't the only teammate who thought his problems were mental more than anything else.

 

So why do you believe one so much over the other?

[johnstros]

yes, but if lidge puts three men on base with a 5 run lead and less than 2 outs, is garner going to keep him in there?

besides, that has no bearing on how "good" Lidge is pitching.  men on base is still an issue.  did you watch the last game?  

just saying

[johnstros]

i' don't really know actually, coming from jdjo, seems like you believe him?

Maybe the players have an inside joke in the clubhouse, any time jdjo comes in about lidge, this is what we tell him...  

 

[tophfar]

was responding to the fact that you dont think that lidge is being givin his chances to blow it.  and he is.

even in last game, after an error and HBP put two men on, winning run at the plate with less than two outs, lidge stayed in.  after giving up a run, man on third, tieing run at the plate, lidge was still in.

at the mets, 2 -0 lead going to the 9th, lidge gives up a home run , so now suddenly its a 1 run lead with 2 outs.

guess who came in to relieve lidge?

a whole lot of nobody.

edited to correct my mistake about the mets game.

[Limey]

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men on base is still an issue.  did you watch the last game?  just saying

Did you ever watch Billy Wagner close a game?  Just asking...

[JackAstro]

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for lidge, does it count that he is inconsistent?  does it count that he has blown saves?  does it matter that his ERA is high?  and how does all that matter?  What has mattered more?  LIdge's problems or izzy?  are only wins and losses the only problem?  do the pitching coaches only look at wins and losses and evaluate a player?  Does the team only look at the number of saves to evaluate a pitcher?  can it help a pitcher throw his slider better, get more people out?  

And what are we going to do about any of this?  what do you think the coaching staff is going to do?    how will they change the situation?  what other issues may they have?

1. Doesn't count, but it probably matters. For both pitchers.
2. Yes, those count, there's a stat for it and everything
3. Yes.
4. Insofar as it relates to winning baseball games, I guess?
5. More than what?
6. Isringhausen has caused more losses, so him.
7. They are the result, not the problem.
8. I don't think it's even a small percentage.
9. Likewise.
10. Getting people out leads to saves, not the other way around.
11. Get all fired up, apparently. Woo.
12a. Garner: Whatever he thinks will win games.
12b. LaGenius: Something contrary to logic, because it looks smarter when no one else understands it.
13. Kind of running out of steam here. Closer by committee? Maybe new uniforms? What do I get if I guess it?
14. Lidge has an on-air profanity problem, not sure about Isringhausen.


Anyway, that sure was a shitload of questions, and I'm not sure what any of it has to do with my note that Isringhausen has 8 losses, but I hope this helps.

[Arky Vaughan]

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Did you ever watch Billy Wagner close a game?  Just asking...

That comparison isn't apposite.

Only in 2000 has Wagner ever allowed an OBP above .300.  Lidge is at at .333 this season.

I would take Wagner in any season of his career except 2000 over what Lidge has done this year.

[Limey]

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That comparison isn't apposite.

Only in 2000 has Wagner ever allowed an OBP above .300.  Lidge is at at .333 this season.

I would take Wagner in any season of his career except 2000 over what Lidge has done this year.

There you go with your facts and figures again!  I remember baserunners like rabbits in a lettuce field whenever Billy took the mound.  Then a giant ninja-rabbit would step up and blast a monster home run.  That's just how it is in my fever-addled brain today.

[Arky Vaughan]

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There you go with your facts and figures again!  I remember baserunners like rabbits in a lettuce field whenever Billy took the mound.  Then a giant ninja-rabbit would step up and blast a monster home run.  That's just how it is in my fever-addled brain today.

What you may be remembering is that as few as Wagner allowed on base, he always seem to put them on at the most inopportune times, or so it seemed.

[johnstros]

2-0,   2 run lead
delgado hits a homerun, 2 outs, if lidge puts another man on base, who knows what happens


5-2  3 run lead

if willy doesn't make that throw, 1 out, 2 men in scoring position, the game is different.  

he is the whatever you may call it, but if you think that the astros have designated him their "closer", they haven't said it yet.  Also if you believe that the Astros place their full trust in him, i would like to know how you believe that?  Garner already has told him thy were going to go by committee.  wheeler came in a couple of times.  two games where lidge has closed doesn't exactly change this. i don't remember wagner being told he wasn't the closer anymore.  Full trust?  

[johnstros]

wagner was great except the losing season the astros had.  I really don't remember him putting to many men on base and as far as him being a gas can compared to lidge, it was the meltdown season and i think he got traded right after that???  the other seasons, i remember him being very good.  reliable as far as saves.  maybe lidge isn't blowing every single game, but it seems as if it can happen anytime soon, only time i felt that with wagner was during the losing season, but maybe i have colored glasses from that year because it was a lost season

[Bench]

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2-0,   2 run lead
delgado hits a homerun, 2 outs, if lidge puts another man on base, who knows what happens

 

And if Cy Young only won 30 games in his career, who knows what happens?

[Limey]

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And if Cy Young only won 30 games in his career, who knows what happens?

I do.  The pitching award would be called the "Roger Clemens".

[johnstros]

 ?

[tophfar]

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two games where lidge has closed doesn't exactly change this. i don't remember wagner being told he wasn't the closer anymore.  Full trust?  

there have been two non-lidge saves in the past 5-6 weeks.

lidge also got the win against MIL when he came into a 0-0 game in the 9th.  the proceeded to put two men on, 1 by his own fielding error, with only 1 out.

he still stayed in the game.

no one is saying lidge is having a "good" year.  but with all his struggles this year, it is nice to see in persepctive that hey, maybe we don't have it quite as bad as we think.

and what happened with wagner, how he was treated/handled is of absolutely no relevence to this discussion, seeing as it was about lidge vs. izzy.

[johnstros]

i'm not crying

wagner was our super closer before lidge, so sure it is relevant

still haven't answered the question, does he have full trust?

[Arky Vaughan]

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i'm not crying

wagner was our super closer before lidge, so sure it is relevant

still haven't answered the question, does he have full trust?

I don't know if "he" is referring to Lidge or Garner.

If "he" is Lidge, I don't know if he has "full trust."  He hasn't told me.

If "he" is Garner, the Astros made it clear a couple of weeks ago that they would try other options in addition to Lidge in closing games.  They've apparently seen enough positive out of Lidge lately to continue to put him into save situations, however.

This discussion seems pointless.  The Astros are using Lidge in save situations, and whether he's good or just lucky, he's converting a high percentage of them.  I don't think anyone is thrilled with the constant traffic, and nobody is denying that Lidge has been a lot sharper in the past.  I certainly think it's anomalous for a pitcher with 5.00 ERA to be among the top closers in the league in converting saves.  But sometimes anomalies happen, and speculating about how much worse it could be is a waste of time.

The what's-wrong-with-Lidge debate has been going on all season, long before this thread was started.  Why are you still poking a stick at it?

[No? in Austin]

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still haven't answered the question, does he have full trust?

What does this mean?

[No? in Austin]

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The what's-wrong-with-Lidge debate has been going on all season, long before this thread was started.  Why are you still poking a stick at it?

May I take the time here to remind our reading audience that the Lidge moritorium in the TZ is still in vogue.  If you can't find a unique and creative way of posting about Lidge's current prowess... pleas refrain from positng about him.

Just sit back and enjoy (or not) what he's doing lately.

Thank you, move along now... nothing else to see here citizens... keep moving, keep moving, keep moving.