Author Topic: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010  (Read 2409 times)

Mr. Happy

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HudsonHawk

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 11:12:25 am »
Page 12 of this report does not portend well for this country.

I'm not sure of your point...that rich people pay higher taxes and use fewer social services? 
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Ron Brand

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 11:35:51 am »
There hasn't been a finer time to be in the top 1% since the 1920s. Raise your glasses high, O Lords!
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Limey

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 11:43:04 am »
Page 12 of this report does not portend well for this country.

United States Is Now the Most Unequal of All Advanced Economies

Quote
The most authoritative source comparing wealth-concentration in the various countries is the successor to the reports that used to be done for the United Nations, now performed as the Credit Suisse Global Wealth Databook. The latest (2013) edition of it finds (p. 146) that in the U.S., 75.4% of all wealth is owned by the richest 10% of the people.

The comparable figures for the other developed countries are: Australia 50.3%, Canada 57.4%, Denmark 72.2%, Finland 44.9%, France 51.8%, Germany 61.7%, Ireland 58.4%, Israel 68.9%, Italy 49.8%, Japan 49.1%, Netherlands 54.6%, New Zealand 57.6%, Norway 65.9%, Singapore 61.1%, Spain 54.0%, Sweden 71.1%, Switzerland 71.5%, and U.K. 53.3%. Those are the top 20 developed nations, and the U.S. has the most extreme wealth-concentration of them all.


So, the top 10% own 75% of the wealth and the top 20% combined pay less than 70% of the taxes.  What was Mitt Romney's tax rate again?  Oh yeah...14%.  The Horror!

ETA:  Over time, despite paying the bulk of taxes, the wealthy are getting wealthier.  In spades.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 11:46:51 am by Limey »
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Mr. Happy

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 12:27:28 pm »
I'm not sure of your point...that rich people pay higher taxes and use fewer social services? 

The point is that the top 40% pay 106.1% of the income taxes and the bottom 40% actually have a negative income tax rate due to refundable tax credits. That concerns me greatly. A little over 50% of the taxpayers pay almost all of the income taxes. When that number falls below 50%, the poor will simply vote to take money from the wealthy and redistribute that wealth.
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Jacksonian

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 12:35:46 pm »
ETA:  Over time, despite paying the bulk of taxes, the wealthy are getting wealthier. 

Why is this a bad thing?
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Bench

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 12:43:42 pm »
Why is this a bad thing?

Only because it is occurring at the expense of everyone else, most especially the middle class.  But the wealthy shouldn't complain about paying taxes considering it does nothing to inhibit their increase of wealth.
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Knoxbanedoodle

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 12:50:01 pm »
Page 12 of this report does not portend well for this country.

None of it portends well for the country, but that chart tells only a tiny part of the story. We need more, not less, redistribution of income. 

HudsonHawk

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 02:06:51 pm »
The point is that the top 40% pay 106.1% of the income taxes and the bottom 40% actually have a negative income tax rate due to refundable tax credits. That concerns me greatly. A little over 50% of the taxpayers pay almost all of the income taxes. When that number falls below 50%, the poor will simply vote to take money from the wealthy and redistribute that wealth.

1.  That chart is not just income tax, it's all federal taxes.
2.  It's impossible to have more than 100% of something.
3.  The Top 40% pay the most tax because they have the most money.  Do you expect 10% of the income to pay 90% of the taxes? 
4.  The people that benefit most from the deal *should* pay more.
5.  If you read further into the document, you'll get to the part where they discuss trends. Trends about tax rates, income growth, etc, etc.  Bottom line:  the tax rates for most Americans are at an all time low.  The growth in wealth of the Top 1% is at an all-time high, increasing exponentially over the last 30 years, while everyone's income has risen linearly. 

In short, there should be concern with what the numbers are telling us, but for exactly the opposite reasons you suggest. 
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Jacksonian

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 02:22:56 pm »
Only because it is occurring at the expense of everyone else, most especially the middle class.  

I don't think this is right.  I think the wealthy will get wealthier even if they are doing so completely independently of anyone else.  I don't have to screw over my neighbor to make more than him.  I could, but I don't have to.
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Mr. Happy

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 02:24:47 pm »
1.  That chart is not just income tax, it's all federal taxes.
2.  It's impossible to have more than 100% of something.
3.  The Top 40% pay the most tax because they have the most money.  Do you expect 10% of the income to pay 90% of the taxes? 
4.  The people that benefit most from the deal *should* pay more.
5.  If you read further into the document, you'll get to the part where they discuss trends. Trends about tax rates, income growth, etc, etc.  Bottom line:  the tax rates for most Americans are at an all time low.  The growth in wealth of the Top 1% is at an all-time high, increasing exponentially over the last 30 years, while everyone's income has risen linearly. 

In short, there should be concern with what the numbers are telling us, but for exactly the opposite reasons you suggest. 

That wasn't the amount of tax paid, but rather tax rates. It is my opinion that we should not be giving away refundable tax credits. It is nothing but welfare.
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. Agnes Rupellier

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HudsonHawk

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 02:33:23 pm »
That wasn't the amount of tax paid, but rather tax rates. It is my opinion that we should not be giving away refundable tax credits. It is nothing but welfare.

Tax deductions of any kind are welfare.  Minimum wage is welfare.  Medicare is welfare.  Unemployment benefits are welfare.  But that's a different discussion than the trend in tax rates.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

subnuclear

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 02:44:24 pm »
The biggest tax credit, the Earned Income Tax Credit, was implemented so that people don't make more on welfare than they would working a low-wage job. You have to work and you more or less have to have children to get it.

Bench

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 02:52:20 pm »
I don't think this is right.  I think the wealthy will get wealthier even if they are doing so completely independently of anyone else.  I don't have to screw over my neighbor to make more than him.  I could, but I don't have to.

The problem is that while the nation's productivity continues to increase, over the last 30 to 35 years that increase has disproportionately benefited the wealthy classes.  The upper echelon has continued to see its wealth grow, while average family incomes have stagnated, or even declined against inflation during that same time, despite putting in the work that led to the continued increase in production.  One point to illustrate this gap is that in 1970, the average CEO made 50 times more than the average worker, compared to over 300 times more than the average worker today.  That doesn't mean anyone - whether run of the mill worker or chief executive - is working any more or any less than they did thirty years ago.  It's just that the benefits of that work are accruing to the latter in a manner that is disproportionate to the way it was when the country had a burgeoning middle class.       
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chuck

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 03:27:46 pm »
It's just that the benefits of that work are accruing to the latter in a manner that is disproportionate to the way it was when the country had a burgeoning middle class.       

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Jacksonian

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 03:48:36 pm »
The problem is that while the nation's productivity continues to increase, over the last 30 to 35 years that increase has disproportionately benefited the wealthy classes.  The upper echelon has continued to see its wealth grow, while average family incomes have stagnated, or even declined against inflation during that same time, despite putting in the work that led to the continued increase in production.  One point to illustrate this gap is that in 1970, the average CEO made 50 times more than the average worker, compared to over 300 times more than the average worker today.  That doesn't mean anyone - whether run of the mill worker or chief executive - is working any more or any less than they did thirty years ago.  It's just that the benefits of that work are accruing to the latter in a manner that is disproportionate to the way it was when the country had a burgeoning middle class.       

If you want to argue that the laws and regulations regarding large businesses and small businesses/entrepreneurs have disproportionately helped the large businesses and therefore the VP's and CEO's I'd stand with you.
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geezerdonk

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CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 03:57:42 pm »
Money ain't enough - not any more. It's time for some Robespierre action; a whole lot of Robespierre action.
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Limey

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 09:00:37 am »
Why is this a bad thing?

It's not.  But it's a strong counter to the argument that taxes are strangling "job creators".
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NeilT

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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 09:12:06 am »
Money ain't enough - not any more. It's time for some Robespierre action; a whole lot of Robespierre action.

Yeah, that ended well.
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Re: CBO Report: Federal tax rates for 2010
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2013, 11:55:59 pm »
Yeah, that ended well.

Well it worked out pretty well for Robespierre...oh wait.