Author Topic: Mazeroski giving Biggio a tip of the cap (Read 6062 times)

S.P. Rodriguez · « **on:** January 26, 2012, 09:42:00 am »

http://www.examiner.com/houston-astros-in-houston/mazeroski-views-biggio-as-lock-to-be-elected-to-hall-of-fame-on-first-ballot?CID=examiner_alerts_article

Fredia · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2012, 09:52:49 am »

you know what is truly sad other than baggy and bidg there will be no more houston astros as we know them nominated for the hall

Limey · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:03:51 am »

Quote from: Fredia on January 26, 2012, 09:52:49 am

you know what is truly sad other than baggy and bidg there will be no more houston astros as we know them nominated for the hall

Point of order: If the team name changes, are HoF inductees enshrined with the team name under which they played, or the current team name? If the latter, there may never be any Houston Astros in the Hall.

Ron Brand · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:12:59 am »

Quote from: Limey on January 26, 2012, 10:03:51 am

Point of order: If the team name changes, are HoF inductees enshrined with the team name under which they played, or the current team name? If the latter, there may never be any Houston Astros in the Hall.

I think the player's whole team history is listed on the plaque. The hat worn on the plaque is subject to determination and I don't know which one they'd pick for that.

S.P. Rodriguez · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:16:51 am »

Quote from: Ron Brand on January 26, 2012, 10:12:59 am

I think the player's whole team history is listed on the plaque. The hat worn on the plaque is subject to determination and I don't know which one they'd pick for that.

Bud will probably have it switched to the Brewers, using the series played between the Cubs and Astros in Milwaukee as justification.

BUWebguy · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:52:41 am »

Quote from: Ron Brand on January 26, 2012, 10:12:59 am

I think the player's whole team history is listed on the plaque. The hat worn on the plaque is subject to determination and I don't know which one they'd pick for that.

Looks like the current standard is to just list city and league ("Montreal, N.L.") and years. The cap would definitely be from the guy's playing days, so it would definitely be Astros for Bagwell/Biggio (though it could be either the 90s or 00s design). For example, see Roy Campanella or Jackie Robinson -- both elected for their playing time in Brooklyn, both enshrined after the team left for LA, both wearing "B" hats:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pa_dodger/5837806771/in/photostream
http://castle.eiu.edu/wow/classes/fa04/halloffame.jpg

But it is possible that one or both players could be inducted without the plaque actually saying "Astros," name change or not.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #6 on:** January 26, 2012, 11:10:09 am »

Quote from: Ron Brand on January 26, 2012, 10:12:59 am

I think the player's whole team history is listed on the plaque. The hat worn on the plaque is subject to determination and I don't know which one they'd pick for that.

The plaque is to be representative of the player's career. So whatever hat they wore when playing is what goes on the plaque, irrespective of what cap the team is wearing at the time. So for example, Hank Aaron retired a Milwaukee Brewer, but the cap is from the 1960's Atlanta Braves. Larry Doby was elected in 1998, but his plaque is shown with a 1940's era Indians cap. The Houston Astros are the only team Biggio or Bagwell ever played for. Which Astros cap they use may be up for debate, but it has to be an Astros cap. There is no other option.

On a side note, I was looking at the HOF website the other day, which has players listed by their "primary team". Nolan Ryan's is listed as the Angels, even though he played the longest with the Astros and the Rangers cap is on his plaque.

Waldo · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2012, 11:45:40 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 26, 2012, 11:10:09 am

On a side note, I was looking at the HOF website the other day, which has players listed by their "primary team". Nolan Ryan's is listed as the Angels, even though he played the longest with the Astros and the Rangers cap is on his plaque.

That is especially odd since the Angels weren't even his first team. I wonder what criteria they are using.

Col. Sphinx Drummond · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2012, 12:00:52 pm »

Maz is the man!

Reuben · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2012, 12:24:12 pm »

Quote from: Sphinx Drummond on January 26, 2012, 12:00:52 pm

Maz is the man!

Agreed. Very classy. Then again, I'm sure all of the HOF 2nd basemen are, right? I mean surely any day now we'll see an article with Joe Morgan singing Biggio's praises...

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2012, 01:03:37 pm »

Quote from: Waldo on January 26, 2012, 11:45:40 am

That is especially odd since the Angels weren't even his first team. I wonder what criteria they are using.

I assume it's because that's where he became a star...oh, and threw four no-hitters.

MusicMan · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2012, 01:29:18 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on January 26, 2012, 12:24:12 pm

I mean surely any day now we'll see an article with Joe Morgan singing Biggio's praises...

Has Biggio brought the proper offerings in tribute?

Andyzipp · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2012, 02:07:06 pm »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 26, 2012, 01:03:37 pm

I assume it's because that's where he became a star...oh, and threw four no-hitters.

But where you became a star isn't part of the criteria (that they're willing to admit). When Wade Boggs had a clause in a contract that he would go into the HOF as a Devil Ray, the HOF coughed up some criteria, and I can't recall exactly what it was, but it wasn't that.

Limey · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2012, 02:17:39 pm »

Quote from: Andyzipp on January 26, 2012, 02:07:06 pm

But where you became a star isn't part of the criteria (that they're willing to admit). When Wade Boggs had a clause in a contract that he would go into the HOF as a Devil Ray, the HOF coughed up some criteria, and I can't recall exactly what it was, but it wasn't that.

Where you made the most money?

Bench · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2012, 02:40:44 pm »

Quote from: Andyzipp on January 26, 2012, 02:07:06 pm

But where you became a star isn't part of the criteria (that they're willing to admit). When Wade Boggs had a clause in a contract that he would go into the HOF as a Devil Ray, the HOF coughed up some criteria, and I can't recall exactly what it was, but it wasn't that.

It's something along the lines of "emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career" as determined by the museum.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:33:50 am »

Quote from: Andyzipp on January 26, 2012, 02:07:06 pm

But where you became a star isn't part of the criteria (that they're willing to admit). When Wade Boggs had a clause in a contract that he would go into the HOF as a Devil Ray, the HOF coughed up some criteria, and I can't recall exactly what it was, but it wasn't that.

The criteria is it's representative of your career. That it's historically accurate. Ryan's time as an Angel is just that.

Waldo · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:50:04 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 07:33:50 am

The criteria is it's representative of your career. That it's historically accurate. Ryan's time as an Angel is just that.

Then why isn't he wearing an Angels cap in the HOF? Seems to me like those should have the same criteria.

jbm · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:23:53 am »

Isn't the cap the choice of the player?

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:41:18 am »

Quote from: Waldo on January 27, 2012, 07:50:04 am

Then why isn't he wearing an Angels cap in the HOF? Seems to me like those should have the same criteria.

Because the Rangers cap is representative as well. As would be an Astros cap. Ryan is one of those cases where there are several options. I just thought it was interesting that the database lists the Angels as his "primary team".

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2012, 08:42:06 am »

Quote from: jbm on January 27, 2012, 08:23:53 am

Isn't the cap the choice of the player?

No, it's the HOF's choice. If there are several legit options, the HOF will consider the player's wish, but the decision belongs to the HOF.

Noe · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2012, 09:49:25 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 08:42:06 am

No, it's the HOF's choice. If there are several legit options, the HOF will consider the player's wish, but the decision belongs to the HOF.

Was that because of Wade Boggs wanting a team (BoSox, Yankees, or Devil Rays) to pay him to have him wear their cap in the HOF induction?

Limey · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2012, 09:50:21 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 08:42:06 am

No, it's the HOF's choice. If there are several legit options, the HOF will consider the player's wish, but the decision belongs to the HOF.

Which begs the question: how could Boggs have it written into his contract?

Bench · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:05:29 am »

Quote from: jbm on January 27, 2012, 08:23:53 am

Isn't the cap the choice of the player?

It used to be (Ryan chose the Rangers). But post-Wade Boggs picking the Devil Rays for his cap, the museum decides.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:25:50 am »

Quote from: Limey on January 27, 2012, 09:50:21 am

Which begs the question: how could Boggs have it written into his contract?

You can write anything you want in the contract. The HOF didn't sign the contract, they have no say so or obligations with respect to it.

Bench · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:28:05 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 10:25:50 am

You can write anything you want in the contract. The HOF didn't sign the contract, they have no say so or obligations with respect to it.

But at the time, it would have been Boggs choice and he would be bound by the contract to choose it.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #25 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:28:36 am »

Quote from: Bench on January 27, 2012, 10:05:29 am

It used to be (Ryan chose the Rangers). But post-Wade Boggs picking the Devil Rays for his cap, the museum decides.

The HOF contends it's always been their choice, it just wasn't an issue until Boggs. So they "clarified".

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #26 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:29:20 am »

Quote from: Bench on January 27, 2012, 10:28:05 am

But at the time, it would have been Boggs choice and he would be bound by the contract to choose it.

But the HOF never had to honor his choice.

Bench · « **Reply #27 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:33:08 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 10:29:20 am

But the HOF never had to honor his choice.

It certainly turned out that way.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #28 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:37:28 am »

Quote from: Bench on January 27, 2012, 10:33:08 am

It certainly turned out that way.

We'll see if they need to have the same fight with Clemens.

BizidyDizidy · « **Reply #29 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:38:44 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 10:37:28 am

We'll see if they need to have the same fight with Clemens.

You don't think the Yankees are a legitimate choice?

Bench · « **Reply #30 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:39:40 am »

Quote from: BizidyDizidy on January 27, 2012, 10:38:44 am

You don't think the Yankees are a legitimate choice?

That seems like the most likely team to me.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #31 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:40:48 am »

Quote from: BizidyDizidy on January 27, 2012, 10:38:44 am

You don't think the Yankees are a legitimate choice?

I don't make the choice either. But the HOF has already said Boston would be the cap. Roger said no. The HOF said tough shit, it's our decision. Roger said count me out of the ceremony then. The HOF said, as you wish.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #32 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:41:06 am »

Quote from: Bench on January 27, 2012, 10:39:40 am

That seems like the most likely team to me.

HOF has already declared it will be Boston.

Limey · « **Reply #33 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:45:14 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 10:37:28 am

We'll see if they need to have the same fight with Clemens.

He has to get voted in first.

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:45:46 am »

Quote from: Limey on January 27, 2012, 10:45:14 am

He has to get voted in first.

Hence my first comment about "we'll see..."

Bench · « **Reply #35 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:52:18 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 10:40:48 am

I don't make the choice either. But the HOF has already said Boston would be the cap. Roger said no. The HOF said tough shit, it's our decision. Roger said count me out of the ceremony then. The HOF said, as you wish.

That debate entirely escaped my notice. Needless to say, Clemens is still a prick.

Mr. Happy · « **Reply #36 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:58:47 am »

Quote from: Bench on January 27, 2012, 10:52:18 am

Needless to say, Clemens is still a prick.

This is an understatement, Bench.

BizidyDizidy · « **Reply #37 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:59:16 am »

Quote from: Bench on January 27, 2012, 10:52:18 am

That debate entirely escaped my notice. Needless to say, Clemens is still a prick.

I didn't remember that either. Clemens is probably worse than a prick, but I don't think it's that unreasonable for him to wear a Yankee cap if that's what he wants (he did win his only 2 world series there).

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #38 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:14:33 am »

Quote from: BizidyDizidy on January 27, 2012, 10:59:16 am

I didn't remember that either. Clemens is probably worse than a prick, but I don't think it's that unreasonable for him to wear a Yankee cap if that's what he wants (he did win his only 2 world series there).

The HOF said Boston puts his his career in historical context better. It's not about any particular accomplishment, it's about history. He pitched in Boston more than twice as long as he did in NY. That's probably their biggest factor.

Bench · « **Reply #39 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:21:28 am »

Quote from: BizidyDizidy on January 27, 2012, 10:59:16 am

I didn't remember that either. Clemens is probably worse than a prick, but I don't think it's that unreasonable for him to wear a Yankee cap if that's what he wants (he did win his only 2 world series there).

Plus his 300th win, etc...

Reuben · « **Reply #40 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:23:34 am »

Quote from: HudsonHawk on January 27, 2012, 11:14:33 am

The HOF said Boston puts his his career in historical context better. It's not about any particular accomplishment, it's about history. He pitched in Boston more than twice as long as he did in NY. That's probably their biggest factor.

Wow, you're absolutely right; I didn't realize his BOS time was so much longer. So much better, too: 192 wins, 3.06 ERA, 3 Cy Youngs in Boston; 83 wins, 4.01 ERA, 1 Cy in NY. 2,776 IP to 1,103. Also glaring: 100 CG to 3. Damn, he was a beast before he started juicing...

HudsonHawk · « **Reply #41 on:** January 27, 2012, 11:27:10 am »

Quote from: Reuben on January 27, 2012, 11:23:34 am

Wow, you're absolutely right; I didn't realize his BOS time was so much longer. So much better, too: 192 wins, 3.06 ERA, 3 Cy Youngs in Boston; 83 wins, 4.01 ERA, 1 Cy in NY. 2,776 IP to 1,103. Also glaring: 100 CG to 3. Damn, he was a beast before he started juicing...

He left Boston because they thought he was at the end of his career. He *was* Boston baseball for many years.

Limey · « **Reply #42 on:** January 27, 2012, 12:03:05 pm »

Quote from: Reuben on January 27, 2012, 11:23:34 am

Wow, you're absolutely right; I didn't realize his BOS time was so much longer. So much better, too: 192 wins, 3.06 ERA, 3 Cy Youngs in Boston; 83 wins, 4.01 ERA, 1 Cy in NY. 2,776 IP to 1,103. Also glaring: 100 CG to 3. Damn, he was a beast before he started juicing...

How does his time as a New york Yankee compare to his time as a Houston TBNL?