Author Topic: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...  (Read 20814 times)

Andyzipp

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I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« on: August 26, 2010, 10:05:27 am »
The Astros are 40-35 since their 17-34 start. They have played .500 ball in each of the last 2 months.

April 8-14
May 9-20
June 14-14
July 13-11
August 13-10 (with 6 remaining)

While it's not doing much for next season's draft standings, This team is fun to watch again and more importantly, competitive.  This is without Castro and Wallace doing much of anything.





Ron Brand

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2010, 10:07:53 am »
Who do we need to talk to about a do-over for April and May?
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2010, 10:07:57 am »
It's been so much better since new coach Bill(ly) Heyward told the players to go out and have some fun.  I also like the trick plays he drew up for Quintero.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2010, 10:19:32 am »
If the Reds play .500 ball from here on out, they'll wind up at 90-72. The Astros only need to go 38-5 to match that. Come on, Drayton! Get us that vet we need to get over the hump!
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2010, 10:23:41 am »
It's been so much better since new coach Bill(ly) Heyward told the players to go out and have some fun.  I also like the trick plays he drew up for Quintero.

Last nights pick off was funny.  Runner was paying so much attention to Q that he did not look down to find the base.

Andyzipp

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2010, 10:24:03 am »
If the Reds play .500 ball from here on out, they'll wind up at 90-72. The Astros only need to go 38-5 to match that. Come on, Drayton! Get us that vet we need to get over the hump!

.500 is a big deal, depending on whether you're under it or over it.

To a young team, learning to win in the majors, playing .500 ball for 2+ months is a good thing. 

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 10:32:22 am »
.500 is a big deal, depending on whether you're under it or over it.

To a young team, learning to win in the majors, playing .500 ball for 2+ months is a good thing. 

Chasing Milwaukee for third place in the NL Central.  For a young team, that is something to build on.  BTW - JD mentioned the other night that the key to winning in the MLB is pitching.  He then went on to say something like this:

"You take Myers and the way he's pitching, then add Wandy looking like the guy we saw last year and *IF* Bud Norris puts it together... well, I'm not saying Houston will have the best starting three by any means, but that would be cause for optimism".  He didn't mention Happ, but if that guy is for real, then that is four solid starters.  FOUR solid starters.  Mix in a good bullpen (if they can stabilize it next year, Wilton Lopez leaves some hope that they can build one that will be good), and if you get the defense up the middle you're seeing with Castro, Quintero, Manzella, Sanchez and Bourn, then you have a good squad.  What you'll need is offense from the corners.  That would be Pence, Lee, Wallace and Johnson.  Hmmmmm....

austro

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 10:37:07 am »
.500 is a big deal, depending on whether you're under it or over it.

To a young team, learning to win in the majors, playing .500 ball for 2+ months is a good thing. 

Oh, I wasn't trying to downplay that at all, and I'm pleasantly surprised and encouraged by what they're accomplishing. It was more a comment on how deep a hole was dug in the first two months. I hope they play .500 in September, too: I think that would be a tremendous second half of the season, and provide lots of encouragement for next year.

I just hope that it doesn't provide so much encouragement that a certain someone starts agitating to trade some youngsters for a quick-fix vet.
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Oh look out Lennon here I come - land ahoy-hoy-hoy

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 10:45:59 am »
i firmly believe Wallace will hit. ditto Castro, at least enough to be valuable.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 10:48:22 am »
It's been said before, but I'm very, very happy with the work Wade, Heck, Mills and Arnsberg have done, and for The Grocer's ability to listen to them and let them work.
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Astroholic

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 10:48:27 am »
i firmly believe Wallace will hit. ditto Castro, at least enough to be valuable.

Agree.   As well as Borne and Johnson continuing to figure out the league.  That leaves Pence!

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2010, 10:49:06 am »
i firmly believe Wallace will hit. ditto Castro, at least enough to be valuable.

I'm confident Wallace will.  Castro...I'm not so sure where he'll end up.  But then, as long as he's a good defensive catcher, I really don't care.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 10:49:59 am »
Agree.   As well as Borne and Johnson continuing to figure out the league.  That leaves Pence!

Pence has hit better lately.  And he is what he is.  I'm not sure what there is to expect from Pence that you haven't already seen.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 10:50:11 am »
I'm confident Wallace will.  Castro...I'm not so sure where he'll end up.  But then, as long as he's a good defensive catcher, I really don't care.

Id be happy with Ausmusian numbers from Castro.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 10:51:02 am »
i firmly believe Wallace will hit. ditto Castro, at least enough to be valuable.

I like to believe Wallace will be the stud that Joe-Astro-fan believes Hunter Pence already is (and I hope Hunter keeps improving to make Joe-Astro-fan correct).  

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 10:51:04 am »
Pence has hit better lately.  And he is what he is.  I'm not sure what there is to expect from Pence that you haven't already seen.

Just hope Bags being in his ear is helping him figure it out.  He's not horrible.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 10:51:07 am »
Id be happy with Ausmusian numbers from Castro.

As long as he's a solid backstop, I'm happy with pretty much anything other than Jim Deshaies numbers.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 10:51:15 am »
Castro took some time to adjust to the different levels in the minors and I like what I've seen of Wallace's approach at the plate. I think they'll hit just fine as soon as they catch up.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 10:52:19 am »
Just hope Bags being in his ear is helping him figure it out.  He's not horrible.

No, far from horrible.  He's a productive major league hitter.  But he's not a stud and he's not going to get appreciably better.  I'm still baffled as to why people think he will.
The rules of distinction were thrown out with the baseball cap.  It does not lend itself to protocol.  It is found today on youth in homes, classrooms, even in fine restaurants.  Regardless of its other consequences, this is a breach against civility.  A civilized man should avoid this mania.

Andyzipp

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 10:53:34 am »
i firmly believe Wallace will hit. ditto Castro, at least enough to be valuable.

Agreed on Wallace.  And while I know there's no stat on this, his approach looks good.  Wallace looks like he has a plan when he comes to the plate, the execution just isn't there yet.

Castro is giving me a Robbie Wine Jr./Mark Bailey kind of vibe at the plate.  I'm probably wrong though.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 10:54:58 am »
Castro is giving me a Robbie Wine Jr./Mark Bailey kind of vibe at the plate.  I'm probably wrong though.

the jury still is out, definitely, but he has hit enough at every level.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 10:55:03 am »
Wallace just destroyed a couple of balls Tuesday night, but unfortunately he pulled them foul. I'm confident he's going to figure it out and be a very dangerous hitter.

And what got into Bourn last night? Upper deck power on that foul blast?
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Andyzipp

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2010, 10:55:41 am »
Wallace just destroyed a couple of balls Tuesday night, but unfortunately he pulled them foul. I'm confident he's going to figure it out and be a very dangerous hitter.

And what got into Bourn last night? Upper deck power on that foul blast?

Bourn needs to start doing pushups.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2010, 10:57:00 am »
I'm still baffled as to why people think he will.

Maybe they can see the talent and the struggle to harness it.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2010, 10:57:16 am »
No, far from horrible.  He's a productive major league hitter.  But he's not a stud and he's not going to get appreciably better.  I'm still baffled as to why people think he will.

Because the Astros keep telling us he's the star of the team.  They are confusing popularity with teenaged girls for popularity with baseball fans, so he will always suffer from the disconnection between his hype and his talent.

I think I would be much less hard on Pence if he wasn't the FOTF™.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2010, 10:58:22 am »
Some random stats :

Carlos Lee 2010
Month BA-OBP-SLG
MAR/APR 0.183-0.221-0.232
MAY 0.244-0.254-0.411
JUN 0.283-0.353-0.481
JUL 0.247-0.273-0.424
AUG 0.281-0.333-0.461

Hunter Pence 2010
Month BA-OBP-SLG
MAR/APR 0.232-0.250-0.329
MAY 0.302-0.333-0.519
JUN 0.240-0.321-0.410
JUL 0.312-0.360-0.484
AUG 0.333-0.362-0.604

Team ERA
MAR/APR 3.92
MAY 5.12
JUN 4.70
JUL 3.44
AUG 3.65

Wandy ERA
MAR/APR 3.65
MAY 6.75
JUN 5.18
JUL 2.38
AUG 1.71

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2010, 11:08:53 am »
i firmly believe Wallace will hit. ditto Castro, at least enough to be valuable.

Agreed on both fronts. Wallace just looks and acts like a hitter, and Castro has a real good eye at the plate for a young player.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2010, 11:13:37 am »
Agreed on both fronts. Wallace just looks and acts like a hitter, and Castro has a real good eye at the plate for a young player.

Castro does have a pretty good eye but right now I think he's not getting some of the border line strike calls since he's a rookie. Some of those called strike threes on him could go either way.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2010, 11:14:12 am »
Castro does have a pretty good eye but right now I think he's not getting some of the border line strike calls since he's a rookie. Some of those called strike threes on him could go either way.

I agree.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2010, 11:20:23 am »
Because the Astros keep telling us he's the star of the team.  They are confusing popularity with teenaged girls for popularity with baseball fans, so he will always suffer from the disconnection between his hype and his talent.

I think I would be much less hard on Pence if he wasn't the FOTF™.

Just out of curiosity, but who should be the face of the franchise?  The Astros are a business with a heavy emphasis on marketing.  They need to market their personnel.  Who should they push ahead of, or in addition to, Pence that they don't already push?
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2010, 11:23:43 am »
Just out of curiosity, but who should be the face of the franchise?  The Astros are a business with a heavy emphasis on marketing.  They need to market their personnel.  Who should they push ahead of, or in addition to, Pence that they don't already push?

Bourn, Bourn and Bourn. One of the most exciting players in baseball.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2010, 11:27:22 am »
Just out of curiosity, but who should be the face of the franchise?  The Astros are a business with a heavy emphasis on marketing.  They need to market their personnel.  Who should they push ahead of, or in addition to, Pence that they don't already push?

At this point, the only established player who's been getting it done all year is Myers.  Not sure that he can really be the front man for the Brown Hand Center Houston Astros.  Perhaps a "youth movement" type approach.  It doesn't have to be just one player.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2010, 11:28:14 am »
Bourn, Bourn and Bourn. One of the most exciting players in baseball.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2010, 11:28:47 am »
Just out of curiosity, but who should be the face of the franchise?  The Astros are a business with a heavy emphasis on marketing.  They need to market their personnel.  Who should they push ahead of, or in addition to, Pence that they don't already push?

That is a darn good question.  Here is another:

Should the FOTF also be a players choice as a clubhouse leader?  Are they or should they be interchangeable?

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2010, 11:28:58 am »
If the Reds play .500 ball from here on out, they'll wind up at 90-72. The Astros only need to go 38-5 to match that. Come on, Drayton! Get us that vet we need to get over the hump!

Everyone's getting excited.  Dibble this morning:  "The Astros are only a couple of games behind the Brewers.  They might miss out on sneaking into the playoffs, but Houston is going to cause a lot of trouble the rest of the way".


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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2010, 11:30:02 am »
That is a darn good question.  Here is another:

Should the FOTF also be a players choice as a clubhouse leader?  Are they or should they be interchangeable?

Wouldn't that be Coach Blum?

Noe

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2010, 11:32:11 am »
Wouldn't that be Coach Blum?

Blum = FOTF?  I don't think so... question remains.  Was Bagwell/Biggio an anomaly or an expectation a team should have for their marketed franchise players?

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2010, 11:32:54 am »
Perhaps a "youth movement" type approach.  It doesn't have to be just one player.

Wasn't that the approach about 20 years ago? Seems like I remember ads with a young Biggio, Eric Anthony (?) and Gerald Young* sitting in front of their lockers around 1990 or so. Can't remember when they started pushing Bagwell or if they ever marketed guys like Luis Gonzalez, Finley or Harnisch.

* Hitting on one out of three ain't bad.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2010, 11:33:11 am »
Everyone's getting excited.  Dibble this morning:  "The Astros are only a couple of games behind the Brewers.  They might miss out on sneaking into the playoffs, but Houston is going to cause a lot of trouble the rest of the way".




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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2010, 11:33:23 am »
Just out of curiosity, but who should be the face of the franchise?  The Astros are a business with a heavy emphasis on marketing.  They need to market their personnel.  Who should they push ahead of, or in addition to, Pence that they don't already push?

Somethings just happen.  I don't think we (fans or mgmt) need to annoint anyone as the face of the franchise. 

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2010, 11:35:46 am »
Blum = FOTF?  I don't think so... question remains.  Was Bagwell/Biggio an anomaly or an expectation a team should have for their marketed franchise players?

Oh no my point was he's probably one of the main clubhouse leaders and really only a role player in the twilight of his career. Not exactly the FOTF player that makes Pam's boxers tight.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2010, 11:44:03 am »
Oh no my point was he's probably one of the main clubhouse leaders and really only a role player in the twilight of his career. Not exactly the FOTF player that makes Pam's boxers tight.

Yes, so you see my point.  You can prop up any teenage girl hearthrob you want, the most important guy is the one who leads in the clubhouse *AND* the field.  Is it too much for the Astros to expect such a guy to rise up from the youngsters?  Someone mentioned Myers and by golly, that is the closest thing Houston does have as a true leader (clubhouse and field) since Baggy and Bidge.  Pence?  I don't think many guys in the clubhouse take him seriously.  I wouldn't.  Perhaps what will emerge is a few leaders in the coming years.  Maybe Castro, maybe Happ, who knows.  What Pam does is inconsequential actually, it's what those players do to make themselves known as more than rah-rah guys.  Leaders are important and if they inspire others to handle their business the right way through actions, then those are the guys who really matter.

Remember when Pam wanted Drayton to spend over a hundred million on Beltran because he would basically pay for himself in marketing dollars?  Given how aloof and non-leader type that Beltran has turned out to be, that was an investment I'm glad they didn't make.  Carlos Lee?  Well, he was an investment for run production because Drayton already had his supposed leaders in Oswalt and Berkman.

Who got traded this season?

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2010, 11:46:33 am »
Wasn't that the approach about 20 years ago? Seems like I remember ads with a young Biggio, Eric Anthony (?) and Gerald Young* sitting in front of their lockers around 1990 or so. Can't remember when they started pushing Bagwell or if they ever marketed guys like Luis Gonzalez, Finley or Harnisch.

* Hitting on one out of three ain't bad.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2010, 11:51:48 am »
Yes, so you see my point.  You can prop up any teenage girl hearthrob you want, the most important guy is the one who leads in the clubhouse *AND* the field.  Is it too much for the Astros to expect such a guy to rise up from the youngsters?  Someone mentioned Myers and by golly, that is the closest thing Houston does have as a true leader (clubhouse and field) since Baggy and Bidge.  Pence?  I don't think many guys in the clubhouse take him seriously.  I wouldn't.  Perhaps what will emerge is a few leaders in the coming years.  Maybe Castro, maybe Happ, who knows.  What Pam does is inconsequential actually, it's what those players do to make themselves known as more than rah-rah guys.  Leaders are important and if they inspire others to handle their business the right way through actions, then those are the guys who really matter.

Remember when Pam wanted Drayton to spend over a hundred million on Beltran because he would basically pay for himself in marketing dollars?  Given how aloof and non-leader type that Beltran has turned out to be, that was an investment I'm glad they didn't make.  Carlos Lee?  Well, he was an investment for run production because Drayton already had his supposed leaders in Oswalt and Berkman.

Who got traded this season?

On a somewhat unrelated topic, if the Astros are so inclined, I'd like to see them make a run at Adam Everett as the utility infielder next season.  While the losses of Biggio and Bagwell are lamented from a leadership perspective, Everett and Ausmus were equally big losses inside the clublhouse.


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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2010, 11:53:31 am »
Insightful and long Noe speak.

Definitely Myers can be one of the guys to step up and maybe even become one of the FOTF.  It seems like they're going for a collective FOTF thing anyways if the new look of the website and promotions is to be believed.  As for Pence, I'm mostly in agreement with everyone here about him in general but I have noticed a little bit of a change in how he carries himself.  I have no idea if he's maturing or stepping up into a veteran role or not but crazier things have happened.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2010, 11:54:55 am »
Call me an idiot, but the team is the face of the franchise. Some of them are veteran leaders. Some of them are developing talents. Some of them are roll players. None of them are all of the above. Together, they seem to mesh as a team. It may not be a great team, but they can definitely scare some other teams by how they have been meshed together.

If forced to vote, I would go with Quintero. His head is in the game. He has been playing smart, missing few opportunities and not making big mistakes. He works hard. He seems very respectful of the game as a whole. He seems to accept his role and do the best that he can. It even seems his approach to hitting, though he is not a great hitter, is very solid.

I still go with the team theory.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2010, 11:56:27 am »
Call me an idiot, but the team is the face of the franchise. Some of them are veteran leaders. Some of them are developing talents. Some of them are roll players. None of them are all of the above. Together, they seem to mesh as a team. It may not be a great team, but they can definitely scare some other teams by how they have been meshed together.

If forced to vote, I would go with Quintero. His head is in the game. He has been playing smart, missing few opportunities and not making big mistakes. He works hard. He seems very respectful of the game as a whole. He seems to accept his role and do the best that he can. It even seems his approach to hitting, though he is not a great hitter, is very solid.

I still go with the team theory.

I agree with this. Singling out individual players is unfair. The 25 stand together as a club.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2010, 11:58:47 am »
I agree with this. Singling out individual players is unfair. The 25 stand together as a club.

There is a blueprint for this.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2010, 11:59:05 am »
On a somewhat unrelated topic, if the Astros are so inclined, I'd like to see them make a run at Adam Everett as the utility infielder next season.  While the losses of Biggio and Bagwell are lamented from a leadership perspective, Everett and Ausmus were equally big losses inside the clublhouse.



AE was admired in the clubhouse because he came to play everyday even in the face of the worse adversity to hit a player's home life.  Each and every guy who plays major league baseball feels the sting of how his family life suffers a bit while they go off and play a kid's game they love.  They have the ying and yang of life at that point: they get paid a lot of money to play this kid's game they love so should they complain about not being there for their kids and wife?  What AE showed them all is you can work hard at both and do both well.

He was truly admired for that.  I would imagine whenever one guy felt sorry for himself because he missed his family, all he had to do is look over to AE and see a man still dedicated to helping his team on the field while facing the family life woes that he did.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2010, 11:59:39 am »
There is a blueprint for this.

Exactly what came to my mind after I posted.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2010, 12:00:54 pm »
As for Pence, I'm mostly in agreement with everyone here about him in general but I have noticed a little bit of a change in how he carries himself.

I've noticed this, too. He doesn't seem quite so crazy now, although he's still prone to swing at wild stuff. But it seems like you can occasionally see the gears turning in his head as he tries to understand what the pitcher is trying to do.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2010, 12:02:10 pm »
AE was admired in the clubhouse because he came to play everyday even in the face of the worse adversity to hit a player's home life.  Each and every guy who plays major league baseball feels the sting of how his family life suffers a bit while they go off and play a kid's game they love.  They have the ying and yang of life at that point: they get paid a lot of money to play this kid's game they love so should they complain about not being there for their kids and wife?  What AE showed them all is you can work hard at both and do both well.

He was truly admired for that.  I would imagine whenever one guy felt sorry for himself because he missed his family, all he had to do is look over to AE and see a man still dedicated to helping his team on the field while facing the family life woes that he did.

Absolutely, but he was also known to pull guys aside when he felt they weren't doing things the right way.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2010, 12:03:34 pm »
Exactly what came to my mind after I posted.

Some of the parallels are uncanny.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2010, 12:05:08 pm »
I've noticed this, too. He doesn't seem quite so crazy now, although he's still prone to swing at wild stuff. But it seems like you can occasionally see the gears turning in his head as he tries to understand what the pitcher is trying to do.

[Pence clapping in the bench before the first pitch is thrown in a game] "Come on guys, let's have a good game, let's battle every at bat, let's have a good idea what we're doing out there, let's hit the cutoff man, throw to the right base... we can do this!"

[entire bench rolls their eyes in disbelief]

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2010, 12:11:52 pm »
Some of the parallels are uncanny.

The last Pittsburgh Pirate World Championship team went by the moniker of "We Are Family" (complete with the song provided by the Pointer Sisters, who actually had a brother who played major league baseball).  The idea was provided by their leader (ironic of course) Willie "Pops" Stargell.  Dave Parker was the superstar on that team of good but not necessarily great players.  What those guys did well was win as a team.  The marketing took off and "We Are Family" became the craze.  But to a man in that clubhouse, they admired and loved "Pops" who was a leader and did the things on the field to show everyone that less than 100% was not acceptable.  "Pops' played on a gimpy knee and rarely gave away ABs, you were going to have to kill him if you intended to stop him.  The team took on that persona and that is where Scrap Iron got his nickname (as I remember).  It was a team of what some called overachievers, but definitely a team of battlers.

The marketing may have been about "We Are Family", but the team knew who the leader was.  Many years later, the accolades for "Pops" came for leading that team... long after marketing died and went away.

You always need a leader in the clubhouse, marketing be damned.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2010, 12:11:55 pm »
[Pence clapping in the bench before the first pitch is thrown in a game] "Come on guys, let's have a good game, let's battle every at bat, let's have a good idea what we're doing out there, let's hit the cutoff man, throw to the right base... we can do this!"

[entire bench rolls their eyes in disbelief]

haha Exactly but if he goes out and elevates his game so its not just talk then the opinion of him will change. We'll see if it happens.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2010, 12:15:24 pm »
Absolutely, but he was also known to pull guys aside when he felt they weren't doing things the right way.

I know of one particular story that I won't share details about, but AE saw this one minor leaguer who was tabbed early as a possible major league prospect because of his hitting prowess.  AE was in rehab in Kissimee in the off season (no less) and he noticed the behavior of said minor leaguer and what he was doing.  Finally, AE took it upon himself to approach the kid and warn him that his behavior was as important as his skills.  The kid did not listen and blew him off.  Several years later that same kid got suspended by the Astros for things I won't mention but they spoke to the things AE was trying to convey to this kid who threw away his career.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2010, 12:23:47 pm »
The last Pittsburgh Pirate World Championship team

Yes, kids, this actually did happen.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2010, 12:23:50 pm »
haha Exactly but if he goes out and elevates his game so its not just talk then the opinion of him will change. We'll see if it happens.

I don't know if Pence will ever be looked as a leader regardless.  Berkman had the same type of response in the clubhouse with his aloof character and behavior.  Leaders are made sometimes, but some of the better leaders are born.  Myers might be better suited as the leader that no one markets for this team.  That leaves a gap between what Pam does and what Mills sees in the clubhouse (and quietly endorses).  The idea of marketing may work to prop up the entire team of youngsters on the prowl or the hungry kids or something like that, so long as those kids know who the leader really is, that won't matter to them.

But if someone tries to tell them that Pence is the leader, they'll just roll their eyes and say "wow, people will believe anything written in the papers, won't they?".  I remember when Beltran had his first year in New York, a kid named David Wright who was also tabbed as the nucleus of what was to be a World Championship team, approached Beltran and wanted to get to know him because he felt both of them were going to be the leaders of the Mets.  Wright took it seriously, Beltran could are less.  Over the years, it's kind of proven out who of the two is the leader on and off the field for the Mets and it's not Beltran.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2010, 12:46:32 pm »
If Chris Johnson isn't just a flash in a pan (or whatever that saying is) then he seems to have the makeup, talent, etc. to be the face and the leader.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2010, 12:59:18 pm »
The last Pittsburgh Pirate World Championship team went by the moniker of "We Are Family" (complete with the song provided by the Pointer Sisters, who actually had a brother who played major league baseball).  The idea was provided by their leader (ironic of course) Willie "Pops" Stargell.  Dave Parker was the superstar on that team of good but not necessarily great players.  What those guys did well was win as a team.  The marketing took off and "We Are Family" became the craze.  But to a man in that clubhouse, they admired and loved "Pops" who was a leader and did the things on the field to show everyone that less than 100% was not acceptable.  "Pops' played on a gimpy knee and rarely gave away ABs, you were going to have to kill him if you intended to stop him.  The team took on that persona and that is where Scrap Iron got his nickname (as I remember).  It was a team of what some called overachievers, but definitely a team of battlers.

The marketing may have been about "We Are Family", but the team knew who the leader was.  Many years later, the accolades for "Pops" came for leading that team... long after marketing died and went away.

You always need a leader in the clubhouse, marketing be damned.

An excellent synopsis of that team, although I think the theme song was sung by Sister Sledge.  I remember the Pirates wives dancing to it on top of their dugout after they beat the Reds in the NLCS.

Stargell was the leader that helped keep that team tight.  I think another factor was there were a lot of selfless guys and role players that contributed, platoon combos and such . . . guys like Lee Lacy and John "The Hammer" Milner and Bill Robinson, etc.  They picked up Bill "Mad Dog" Madlock from the Giants mid-season, which was huge.  And they had Ed Ott around for kicking everyone's ass during brawls.  Chuck Tanner gets some credit for mixing and matching all those guys to the point where just about everyone on the bench felt like a contributor.  That sort of thing helps with team unity, too, I would think.

One other thing that Pirate team had going for it was an airtight bullpen, the best in the league, one of the best ever.  Tanner could be as irritating as LaRussa sometimes, but he should get credit for how he handled his pitching staff that year, as well.

With characters like Milner and Dave Parker and Madlock and Grant Jackson and Ott and Garner, etc., they were a fun team to watch whether they were hitting the fuck out of the ball or not, which they usually were - they led the league in runs scored and were 2nd in HRs and batting average.  They were also second in team ERA.  That is a pretty nice combination.

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I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2010, 01:00:26 pm »
The team is fun to watch and the season has become enjoyable. Six weeks ago, I never would have thought I would be saying that.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2010, 01:00:44 pm »
It's been so much better since new coach Bill(ly) Heyward told the players to go out and have some fun.  I also like the trick plays he drew up for Quintero.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2010, 01:21:28 pm »
Yes, so you see my point.  You can prop up any teenage girl hearthrob you want, the most important guy is the one who leads in the clubhouse *AND* the field.  Is it too much for the Astros to expect such a guy to rise up from the youngsters?  Someone mentioned Myers and by golly, that is the closest thing Houston does have as a true leader (clubhouse and field) since Baggy and Bidge.  Pence?  I don't think many guys in the clubhouse take him seriously.  I wouldn't.  Perhaps what will emerge is a few leaders in the coming years.  Maybe Castro, maybe Happ, who knows.  What Pam does is inconsequential actually, it's what those players do to make themselves known as more than rah-rah guys.  Leaders are important and if they inspire others to handle their business the right way through actions, then those are the guys who really matter.

Remember when Pam wanted Drayton to spend over a hundred million on Beltran because he would basically pay for himself in marketing dollars?  Given how aloof and non-leader type that Beltran has turned out to be, that was an investment I'm glad they didn't make.  Carlos Lee?  Well, he was an investment for run production because Drayton already had his supposed leaders in Oswalt and Berkman.

Who got traded this season?

The one guy that is overlooked right now that, IMO, is the best of the young candidates is Wallace.  With Baggy there everyday teaching him, if Wallace has the right temperment to lead, I think he's the one.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2010, 01:27:53 pm »
The one guy that is overlooked right now that, IMO, is the best of the young candidates is Wallace.  With Baggy there everyday teaching him, if Wallace has the right temperment to lead, I think he's the one.

Wallace seems like he might be the silent leader type similar to Bagwell.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2010, 01:29:24 pm »
The one guy that is overlooked right now that, IMO, is the best of the young candidates is Wallace.  With Baggy there everyday teaching him, if Wallace has the right temperment to lead, I think he's the one.

I think there are several guys that could fit the bill, like Wallace, but I really think something like FoTF is something that takes a couple of years. That is why I think the team as a whole is really what makes this team special. They are all in a role that is working together. Leaders will develop from that group, but there isn't really anyone with the whole package, at this point, to stand out.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2010, 01:29:44 pm »
Wallace seems like he might be the silent leader type similar to Bagwell.

Also, if his lower regions are all in proportion, he'll get lots of respect in the locker room.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2010, 01:30:22 pm »
Also, if his lower regions are all in proportion, he'll get lots of respect in the locker room.

Pre-game speeches in the nude to inspire confidence and awe?

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2010, 01:31:35 pm »
Pre-game speeches in the nude to inspire confidence and awe?

With Angel Sanchez in the room? LOL.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2010, 01:33:00 pm »
With Angel Sanchez in the room? LOL.

I'm pretty sure he gets dressed for games at his Fortress of Solitude.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2010, 03:53:46 pm »
Pence has hit better lately.  And he is what he is.  I'm not sure what there is to expect from Pence that you haven't already seen.

Its not so much 'expect' with Pence, rather hoping at some point he will mature enough to stop being Spaz at the plate. I know it is unlikely (and am not holding my breath waiting for it to happen), but 'if' Bagwell could beat even a slightly less Spaz-like approach at the plate in to him, the numbers could get better.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2010, 04:33:54 pm »
I think it's important to keep in mind that Bagwell has not committed past this year.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2010, 04:36:30 pm »
I think it's important to keep in mind that Bagwell has not committed past this year.

Tequila and road pussy.  That's all he needs.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2010, 04:38:21 pm »
Tequila and road pussy.  That's all he needs.

[Tiger] +1 [/Tiger]

ETA:  I miss the days when we could create fake handles for jibes such as this.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2010, 04:40:31 pm »
I think it's important to keep in mind that Bagwell has not committed past this year.

Dude. They build Rome in a day. Surely Bagwell can beat the Spaz out of Pence in a month!

[And on a side note here, not directed at Lurch, I am by no means a Pence apologist. I don't expect him to drop the Spaz approach at the plate, though I hope at some point he matures out of it a bit.]
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2010, 04:51:43 pm »
[Tiger] +1 [/Tiger]

ETA:  I miss the days when we could create fake handles for jibes such as this.

Fake handles and (nm) are glories of a bygone era.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2010, 04:53:09 pm »
Fake handles and (nm) are glories of a bygone era.

As in

Quote from: A Bygone Era
posted by Tiger Woods:  +1 (nm)
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2010, 05:24:34 pm »
Fake handles and (nm) are glories of a bygone era.

They went the way of pet rocks and $10 weed.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2010, 07:08:12 pm »
I saw an interview with Spaz a few days ago. I have no idea what he said. The only thought that remained with me afterward was that he didn’t sound like he was 17. And, that IS different. That will probably not change his approach at the plate, routes to fly balls, or throws to the infield. It may just mean that he will give us less to laugh about in the future and end up a net loss. But, it did seem different.
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2010, 07:15:04 pm »
I don't know about FOTF, but for leadership in the clubhouse what about Keppinger? He seems like a hard-nosed, comes to play, take no (WEAK-ASS) shit kind of player.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2010, 07:21:47 pm »
Keppinger, because of how he plays (if he plays, he has not been a regular for any extended period in his career) is a good choice, much like Myers.  They enjoy teasing guys on the bench and such, but they also take their work seriously and produce.  If I were playing on a team with Myers and Kepp, I would have nothing to say if they approached me and said I needed to get going and play harder (*if I were a bit lazy out there*).  Mainly because they don't give an ounce to the other club and that demands respect from other players.

Again, the only thing about Kepp is the amount of PT he has.  Regular players/pitchers get more respect than bench guys, although a leader for the bench is very much welcome too (see: Vizcaino, Jose)

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2010, 07:26:09 pm »
I don't know about FOTF, but for leadership in the clubhouse what about Keppinger? He seems like a hard-nosed, comes to play, take no (WEAK-ASS) shit kind of player.

I've wondered this as well (beginning with his staredown/glare towards Carlos at home plate early in the season).
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2010, 07:28:47 pm »
I think you guys are ignoring the whole marketing aspect of FOTF.  Keppinger, Blum, Myers, etc... are all good ballplayers, but they either aren't regulars or aren't longtime Astros.  Pence and Bourn are about it, and they are the ones getting pushed.  And this is only Bourn's third season with the club.   
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2010, 08:58:31 pm »
I think you guys are ignoring the whole marketing aspect of FOTF.  Keppinger, Blum, Myers, etc... are all good ballplayers, but they either aren't regulars or aren't longtime Astros.  Pence and Bourn are about it, and they are the ones getting pushed.  And this is only Bourn's third season with the club.   

Actually, I haven't been ignoring it at all.  I just think that the perfect combination would be a marketing of a player who also happens to be respected by their teammates.  Which is more important?  My opinion, the marketing is secondary to players.  It is, however, very much primary with the business side of the house.  The Astros, at one time under Gerry Hunsicker, had a very clear separation between "business side" and "baseball side".  Under Purpura, the two sides became more close.  So close in fact that business had equal pull with the owner as baseball... on baseball moves.  It was a gang of five who had to decide who to hire as the manager for the Astros at one time and that included McLane and Bob McLaren (business side).  That kind of irked Hunsicker, and Tal Smith just kind of accepted it.  If I remember correctly, the swing vote became Pam Garner and thus Jimy Williams was hired.  Hunsicker wanted to give the job to someone else, but decided that Williams was not a bad choice if that is what the "committee" decided.  But it was the beginning of the end for the Hun, who didn't get along with business people.  In fact, he was pretty irritable towards them.  And that led to McLane putting pressure on Hun to shape up to which Gerry decided he had had enough.

So after Purpura and the co-existence of "business" and "baseball", the marketing was taking a very prominent voice around the team.  Who can blame them, the 2005 season with players such as Clemens, Pettitte, Berkman, Bagwell, Oswalt and Biggio and the World Series run was a huge marketing fun time.  Before 2005, marketing wanted McLane to go after Beltran because he would sell.  He was going to pay for himself in terms of marketing at least (and oh by the way, he was seen as a fit in the team as a marquee player... although Berkman and Bagwell laughed at the idea that Beltran even wanted to be here... and if your teammates know you don't want to be there, then why spend that sort of money on the guy?).

Now the team has taken a sort of shift more towards allowing baseball men do their job more than taking a sort of backseat to marketing and business.  Pence was brought up prematurely (at the dismay of Purpura at the time) because marketing needed him and his magic bat and the do no wrong rookie kid (except for that little DUI in Arizona, but that could be excused easily).  Who was running this club/organization any way?  Well, now baseball men seem to be back in the front seat firmly at the wheel.  If marketing wants a marquee player, let them have one... most players won't care.

They'll just follow the lead of a Myers or Keppinger well before Pence.  Okay, so folks think he may change and mature and stuff.  But half of Pence's success is due to his own devil-may-care attitude.  He's not a huge student of the game like Bagwell, nor an intense competitor like Biggio... he's Gunther Pants for goodnessakes!  Market him, but don't call him a clubhouse leader.

Ebby Calvin

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2010, 10:10:47 pm »
He's not a huge student of the game like Bagwell, nor an intense competitor like Biggio... he's Gunther Pants for goodnessakes!  Market him, but don't call him a clubhouse leader.

This sums it up for me.
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Fatt Matt

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2010, 11:58:17 pm »
Does anyone else think there is a Keppinger & Kent comparison to be made?

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2010, 12:40:12 am »
Does anyone else think there is a Keppinger & Kent comparison to be made?

Not really.  Kent was really, really good and some say a good candidate for HOF consideration.  Kepp has a long way to go to achieve that sort of status.  The best that can be said is that Kent had a no nonsense approach and Kepp has the same... but it ends there.  Rather quickly and abruptly.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #87 on: August 27, 2010, 06:57:13 am »
Not really.  Kent was really, really good and some say a good candidate for HOF consideration.  Kepp has a long way to go to achieve that sort of status.  The best that can be said is that Kent had a no nonsense approach and Kepp has the same... but it ends there.  Rather quickly and abruptly.

They are both named Jeff. Their last names begin with K. They both have red hair... Wait, you meant similarities as baseball players didn't you?
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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2010, 08:54:28 am »
This sums it up for me.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2010, 08:55:46 am »
I think you guys are ignoring the whole marketing aspect of FOTF.  Keppinger, Blum, Myers, etc... are all good ballplayers, but they either aren't regulars or aren't longtime Astros.  Pence and Bourn are about it, and they are the ones getting pushed.  And this is only Bourn's third season with the club.   

I agree with you, but if I were to buy a new Astros jersey tomorow, it would say Keppinger on the back. I'm not saying that he's more marketable than Bourn or Pence, but I think there is something to work with there if he continues to play at the level he has this year, especially if DeShields is still a few years away from usurping his position.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2010, 09:02:56 am »
This sums it up for me.

Phil: What would you do if you were stuck in one place and every day was exactly the same, and nothing that you did mattered?
Ralph: That about sums it up for me
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Fatt Matt

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2010, 11:10:13 am »
what i was saying about kepp and kent was there on field hustle and the way they play the game  not stats 

Andyzipp

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2010, 11:25:02 am »
what i was saying about kepp and kent was there on field hustle and the way they play the game  not stats 

And several have pointed out that the observation isn't terribly accurate.

Both are second basemen.  Kent hit a lot of homeruns.  Keppinger hopes he gets to play everyday.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2010, 11:26:09 am »
And several have pointed out that the observation isn't terribly accurate.

Both are second basemen.  Kent hit a lot of homeruns.  Keppinger hopes he gets to play everyday.

+ Kent had a sweet ass monster truck.

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Re: I'm sure Cabarra already bombed Pearl Harbor, but...
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2010, 01:56:51 pm »
Phil: What would you do if you were stuck in one place and every day was exactly the same, and nothing that you did mattered?
Ralph: That about sums it up for me

so nominated. (note to FM: RMPL!)
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