Author Topic: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage  (Read 9456 times)

MusicMan

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I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« on: December 20, 2010, 03:23:36 pm »
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/12/20/hall.blyleven/1.html

Quote
6. Don Mattingly. I switched to "yes'' a few years ago because because he 1) was one of the best players in the game for a five-year period (and presumably would have continued along those lines had it not been for a bad back), 2) has career stats very similar to Hall of Famer Kirby Puckett, who was a no-brainer for me, and 3) is one of the very best defensive first basemen of alltime.

Mattingly MVP votes:
1984 - 5th
1985 - 1st
1986 - 2nd
1987 - 7th

Bagwell MVP votes:
1994 - 1st
1996 - 9th
1997 - 3rd
1999 - 2nd
2000 - 7th
2001 - 7th

Mattingly: .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR
Puckett: .318/.360/.477, 2304 H, 207 HR
Bagwell: .297/.408/..540, 2314 H, 449 HR


Quote
8. Jeff Bagwell. The numbers were plenty good (449 home runs, .408 OBP, .540 slugging percentage) and he'll merit reconsideration next year. I won't argue if he gets in, but I'd prefer a chance to reconsider in future years.

To paraphrase A Few Good Men: "You're such a coward.  I can't believe they let you cast a ballot."
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 03:25:21 pm »
Bagwell's average was 10 points lower.  Duh.

Limey

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 03:27:28 pm »
Quote from: Hyman
...and presumably would have continued along those lines had it not been for a bad back

On this basis, Rick Ankiel is a first balloter!  Extrapolate his numbers over the career length of, say, Jamie Moyer, and he's a legend.
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GreatBagwellsBeard

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 03:35:43 pm »
Urge to kill...rising.
Drinking for two.

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Ron Brand

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 04:20:04 pm »
Jesus Christ. It's not like he just bungled a couple of thoughts in there either - his whole list of justifications reads like a twelve-year-old's, with crazy rationalization piled atop moronic and shifting 'qualifications.' How does someone like this get a job with a respected publication, let alone keep it? There is nothing in this article that doesn't scream "I AM AN IDIOT!"

The Hall of Fame is contentious enough without the work of fools like this. But hey - I'll eat dinner tonight because I just threw up lunch.
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Mr. Happy

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 05:13:16 pm »
Unfuckingbelievable. This guy is even a bigger moron than I had originally thought. Mattingly doesn't belong anywhere close to the HOF.
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MusicMan

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 05:17:46 pm »
Unfuckingbelievable. This guy is even a bigger moron than I had originally thought. Mattingly doesn't belong anywhere close to the HOF.

Morris #2.  The "best pitcher of the 80s."  I lived in Detroit for 2 years, was a HUGE fan of those Tiger teams of the early 80s, and never once did the thought enter my young mind that Jack fucking Morris was the best pitcher in baseball.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

dirty steve

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 06:14:31 pm »
shithead also mentioned that mcgriff and murphy were "presumably clean" and nothing about bagwell being the same way.  him not mentioning that baggy is "presumably clean" is evidence of why he will consider him in "future years."  he also mentions mattingly's bad back as reason for his unfortuitous slide.  didn't bagwell have that shoulder thingy...the arthritis that caused him to retire?

said that he is entrusted with a HOF vote.

austro

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 06:18:10 pm »
To paraphrase A Few Good Men: "You're such a coward.  I can't believe they let you cast a ballot."

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 08:52:50 pm »
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jon_heyman/12/20/hall.blyleven/1.html

Why do you read this shit?  And why did you force it on me?

YES Donnie YES Jack Morris, but NO Bagwell NO Blyleven.   

Right.   I see. 

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 10:10:07 pm »
Dave Parker? Over Bagwell? Does the shit in his cranium spontaneously combust to fire the synapses that cause his fingers to type?

Perhaps we need a gentlemen's agreement not to post this stuff over the next few weeks, for the health and safety of all involved.

pots

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 08:11:47 am »
respected publication

SI hasn't been a respectable publication for a long long time, IMHO.  A sports tabloid.

JimR

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 10:16:11 am »
SI hasn't been a respectable publication for a long long time, IMHO.  A sports tabloid.

i could not disagree any more.
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MusicMan

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 10:19:50 am »
i could not disagree any more.

Indeed.  There's a reason a subscribe despite their relusion that Jon Heyman is a baseball writer.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

Taras Bulba

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 10:32:45 am »
Indeed.  There's a reason a subscribe despite their relusion that Jon Heyman is a baseball writer.
Why do you like it?
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MusicMan

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 10:45:00 am »
Why do you like it?

It's no longer a great summary of the current events in sports, but the photography is still unmatched, and every issue is reliable for at least one good long-form writeup. 

For example - a recent issue had an article breaking down what happened on Canada's goal to beat the USA in OT, second by second, from the perspective of every participant.
I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, torture of Bud Selig.

NeilT

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 11:37:26 am »
It's no longer a great summary of the current events in sports, but the photography is still unmatched, and every issue is reliable for at least one good long-form writeup. 

For example - a recent issue had an article breaking down what happened on Canada's goal to beat the USA in OT, second by second, from the perspective of every participant.

And there's a swimsuit issue.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 11:42:25 am »
Morris #2.  The "best pitcher of the 80s."  I lived in Detroit for 2 years, was a HUGE fan of those Tiger teams of the early 80s, and never once did the thought enter my young mind that Jack fucking Morris was the best pitcher in baseball.

His 10-inning shutout in the world series has taken on a mythological scope over the years.  At the time, the reaction focused on the great game between the two teams but since Morris became eligible for the hall it seems that a lot of writers have pointed to that performance and canonized it as one of the all-time greats, on its own practically reason to put him in.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 01:50:58 pm by Joey Trum »

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 07:43:06 pm »
His 10-inning shutout in the world series has taken on a mythological scope over the years.  At the time, the reaction focused on the great game between the two teams but since Morris became eligible for the hall it seems that a lot of writers have pointed to that performance and canonized it as one of the all-time greats, on its own practically reason to put him in.

Then I guess Don Larsen should be waiting by the phone too.

Jose Cruz III

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 10:27:46 am »
Dan Shaughnessy is a tool, too.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2010/12/22/with_his_decisions_on_baseball_hall_of_fame_weight_is_lifted/?page=2

Quote
Finally, what do we do with Jeff Bagwell? He’s a career .297 hitter with 449 homers. He was an MVP. He won a Gold Glove. He had six straight seasons of 30 homers, 100 RBIs, and 100 runs. His career on base percentage is .408. Bagwell never tested positive for anything. But like a lot of players who will follow him to the ballot, he was a guy who made you wonder.

If you care about “character,’’ snubbing guys who tested positive (Palmeiro, Alex Rodriguez, and Manny Ramirez) is easy. Bonds and Clemens are under indictment. But they’re just the tip of the iceberg. What happens to Sammy Sosa, Pudge Rodriguez, and other players who made you raise your eyebrows? What do we do with Bagwell, who may just be a victim of cheaters around him? Where is this going?

Voting for the Hall of Fame is a great honor. Too bad it’s become almost impossible to stay consistent. I’d better put extra stamps on the envelope. The ballot gets heavier every year.


edited to include he voted for Blyleven, Alomar, and Morris.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 10:30:44 am by Jose Cruz III »
Unga bungaed by the BBGs.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 10:33:08 am »
On the other hand, there's this guy.

thought I'd better add a quote:

Quote
A few less scientific things also help him. He was a franchise icon, having played his entire career in one place. I like that. It tells you what his team thought of him. He also was a part of a winning franchise. The Astros went to the playoffs six times with Bagwell, and they had a winning record in 12 of his 15 seasons.

All of that tells me that, yes, Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 10:43:36 am by PeteM »

Jose Cruz III

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 10:36:25 am »
Paul Daughtery from Cincinnati says Bags is on the fence.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/2010/12/21/the-morning-line-1221-2/

Quote
It’s a weird way of saying my MLB Hall of Fame ballot was there, too, and it has to be postmarked by 12/31. I will vote for a couple guys I always vote for, who dont get in:

1. Jack Morris: By lots of measures, the best pitcher in the AL in  the 80s. Led the majors in wins (162), complete games (133) starts and innings. Has three World  Series rings. Pitched the best big game I’ve ever seen, the 10-inning, 1-0 ewin over the Braves in the ’91 Series.

Any guy good enough to be the best overall for a decade belongs in the Hall. Period. Yet Morris got just 52% of the vote last year, 23% short of what’s needed. Been on the ballot 12 yrs. Won’t get in. Should.

2. Bert Blyleven: You could say lots of his achievements owe to 22 years in the bigs. So? Top 10 all-time in Ks, starts and shutouts. Around long enough to be Rookie of the Year and Comeback Player of the Year. Among the best curveballs ever. Was 5-1 in the postseason, has 2 rings. Won 287 games. Not good enough?

Two others get my vote: Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar. Alomar (73.7 %) barely missed last year; Larkin (51.6) had a very good rookie showing.

Guys on the fence: Lee Smith (3rd overall in saves, 10th in games pitched, 13 straight years with at least 20 saves, a nice career even if the definition of a save needs tightening); Tim Raines (7-time all-star, six 100-run seasons, batting champ, 5th all-time in SBs, poor man’s Rickey Henderson); Fred McGriff (493 HRs, .284 lifetime); Jeff Bagwell (MVP, Rookie of Year, 449 HRs, .297 lifetime.)

Guy who merits discussion: Larry Walker ... 1st year on the ballot… 3-time batting champ, MVP, 7 Gold Gloves, 5-time All Star. Will be hurt by all those years at Coors Field, but if we’re going to judge him on that, what chance does any Rockies hitter ever have of making the HOF?

Guys who will never get my vote: Palmeiro, McGwire. Cheaters.

Unga bungaed by the BBGs.

"No. Humans will die out. We're weak. Dinosaurs survived on rotten flesh. You got diarrhea last week from a Wendy's."

BudGirl

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 10:39:49 am »
Quote
Guy who merits discussion: Larry Walker ... 1st year on the ballot… 3-time batting champ, MVP, 7 Gold Gloves, 5-time All Star. Will be hurt by all those years at Coors Field, but if we’re going to judge him on that, what chance does any Rockies hitter ever have of making the HOF?

And Bagwell doesn't get credit for playing in the Astrodome. ?

You guys really need to stop reading those articles.
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EasTexAstro

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2010, 10:42:21 am »
On the other hand, there's this guy.


"Did anyone ever go to the ballpark just because he wanted to see Bagwell play?"

Um....yeah. Hell yeah. HELL YEAH!

"Bagwell benefited from a tiny strike zone and hitter-friendly ballparks and diluted pitching."

The Astrodome was hitter friendly.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 10:44:47 am by EasTexAstro »
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Jose Cruz III

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2010, 10:42:44 am »
Buster Olney voted for Bags.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5946049

Quote
I turned in my own ballot a couple of weeks ago with votes for: Roberto Alomar, Rafael Palmeiro, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Jeff Bagwell and Mark McGwire.

His vote was interesting. Aside from the admitted juicers and positive testers, I just don't get Morris over Blyleven.

Unga bungaed by the BBGs.

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Bench

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2010, 10:43:34 am »
"Did anyone ever go to the ballpark just because he wanted to see Bagwell play?"

Um....yeah. Hell yeah. HELL YEAH!

That was the dumbest line in an article full of dumb lines despite getting the right result. 

I'm with Budgirl.  Stop reading these idiots. 
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subnuclear

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2010, 10:55:29 am »
And Bagwell doesn't get credit for playing in the Astrodome. ?

Since they changed the walls in Astrodome in 1994, park factor is not as big a deal for Bagwell as it was for, say, Cesar Cedeño.  His stats should not be a problem for anyone who looks at the stats of recent hall of famer inductees.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2010, 02:11:30 pm »
i could not disagree any more.
Given that you disagree with pretty much everything now, I suppose you are correct there.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2010, 06:02:08 pm »
Very funny, Bob.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2010, 06:26:00 pm »
Given that you disagree with pretty much everything now, I suppose you are correct there.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2010, 09:17:48 pm »
And Bagwell doesn't get credit for playing in the Astrodome. ?

The only problem with this idea is that he got a lot of HRs back playing the years he did in MM.   I know we figured it out a few years ago and the years in the Dome cost him at BEST about 17 total HRs over his career (had he played his entire career in an average HR ballpark).

So it's not like he would have had 500 HRs playing his entire career in, say, the Vet or old Busch.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2010, 12:34:05 am »
The only problem with this idea is that he got a lot of HRs back playing the years he did in MM.   I know we figured it out a few years ago and the years in the Dome cost him at BEST about 17 total HRs over his career (had he played his entire career in an average HR ballpark).

So it's not like he would have had 500 HRs playing his entire career in, say, the Vet or old Busch.

Bagwell played longer in the Dome than in Minute Maid. Of his home plate appearances, 2,832, or 60 percent, were in the Dome, and 1,812, or 40 percent, were in Minute Maid.

The Dome's park factor from 1991 to 1999 was 95, meaning for every 100 runs the Astros and their opponents scored elsewhere, they scored 95 runs at the Dome.

Minute Maid's park factor from 2000 to 2005 was 104, meaning for every 100 runs the Astros and their opponents scored elsewhere, they scored 104 runs at Minute Maid.

Over Bagwell's career, the park factor in his home parks was 98, moderately favoring pitchers.

Here are Bagwell's batting splits at the Dome and Minute Maid and on the road:

Park   Avg   OBP   Slg   OPS   HR%
----------------------------------
Dome  .303  .421  .546  .966  5.42
MMP   .303  .412  .583  .995  7.17
Road  .291  .398  .521  .919  5.42


What Minute Maid did for Bagwell was mask his decline as his shoulder degenerated. But if that counts against him, then consider what he would have looked like had he played his prime in Minute Maid. His first season there, at age 32, he hit 47 home runs, drove in 132 and scored 152 runs. You can count on one finger the number of players scoring that many runs in a season since the Great Depression.

In terms of career numbers and rate numbers, none of the other hitters on the ballot except McGwire is really in the same class as Bagwell. But then Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin were no-brainers last year, and the BBWAA dicked them around, so it is unfortunate but not surprising that Bagwell may not be selected on this ballot.

All of this is meaningless to most of the BBWAA. Even many of the writers saying they voted for Bagwell seem only to have just discovered him. People can write all they want about Bagwell being on the fence, but had Bagwell posted the same numbers playing for the Yankees or Red Sox, there would be no doubt that he would be elected on the first ballot with no difficulty. This has less to do with Bagwell than it does with the myopia and provincialism of the BBWAA.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2010, 08:12:46 am »
Bagwell played longer in the Dome than in Minute Maid. Of his home plate appearances, 2,832, or 60 percent, were in the Dome, and 1,812, or 40 percent, were in Minute Maid.

The Dome's park factor from 1991 to 1999 was 95, meaning for every 100 runs the Astros and their opponents scored elsewhere, they scored 95 runs at the Dome.

Minute Maid's park factor from 2000 to 2005 was 104, meaning for every 100 runs the Astros and their opponents scored elsewhere, they scored 104 runs at Minute Maid.

Over Bagwell's career, the park factor in his home parks was 98, moderately favoring pitchers.

Here are Bagwell's batting splits at the Dome and Minute Maid and on the road:

Park   Avg   OBP   Slg   OPS   HR%
----------------------------------
Dome  .303  .421  .546  .966  5.42
MMP   .303  .412  .583  .995  7.17
Road  .291  .398  .521  .919  5.42


What Minute Maid did for Bagwell was mask his decline as his shoulder degenerated. But if that counts against him, then consider what he would have looked like had he played his prime in Minute Maid. His first season there, at age 32, he hit 47 home runs, drove in 132 and scored 152 runs. You can count on one finger the number of players scoring that many runs in a season since the Great Depression.

In terms of career numbers and rate numbers, none of the other hitters on the ballot except McGwire is really in the same class as Bagwell. But then Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin were no-brainers last year, and the BBWAA dicked them around, so it is unfortunate but not surprising that Bagwell may not be selected on this ballot.

All of this is meaningless to most of the BBWAA. Even many of the writers saying they voted for Bagwell seem only to have just discovered him. People can write all they want about Bagwell being on the fence, but had Bagwell posted the same numbers playing for the Yankees or Red Sox, there would be no doubt that he would be elected on the first ballot with no difficulty. This has less to do with Bagwell than it does with the myopia and provincialism of the BBWAA.


+1
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2010, 08:27:09 am »
excellent post, AV.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2010, 08:34:50 am »
Harummpff!
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2010, 09:24:48 am »
Quote
His first season there, at age 32, he hit 47 home runs, drove in 132 and scored 152 runs.
I was going to make a snarky comment about how he had basically the same stats the year before when the Astros were still playing in the Dome, but when I actually looked at the splits its was sort of interesting.

1999 Splits
Code: [Select]
Split    G   BA   OBP  SLG   OPS  
Home    82 .271 .430 .469   .899
Away    80 .337 .477 .709  1.186

2000 Splits
Code: [Select]
Split    G    BA   OBP  SLG    OPS
Home    80  .353  .462 .720   1.182
Away    79  .270  .389 .516    .905

Statistical variation and all that, but its hard to believe he wouldn't have won another MVP in the late 90s had he played in MMP.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 10:10:09 am by subnuclear »

astrosfan76

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2010, 09:48:35 am »
Bagwell played longer in the Dome than in Minute Maid. Of his home plate appearances, 2,832, or 60 percent, were in the Dome, and 1,812, or 40 percent, were in Minute Maid.

The Dome's park factor from 1991 to 1999 was 95, meaning for every 100 runs the Astros and their opponents scored elsewhere, they scored 95 runs at the Dome.

Minute Maid's park factor from 2000 to 2005 was 104, meaning for every 100 runs the Astros and their opponents scored elsewhere, they scored 104 runs at Minute Maid.

Over Bagwell's career, the park factor in his home parks was 98, moderately favoring pitchers.

Here are Bagwell's batting splits at the Dome and Minute Maid and on the road:

Park   Avg   OBP   Slg   OPS   HR%
----------------------------------
Dome  .303  .421  .546  .966  5.42
MMP   .303  .412  .583  .995  7.17
Road  .291  .398  .521  .919  5.42


What Minute Maid did for Bagwell was mask his decline as his shoulder degenerated. But if that counts against him, then consider what he would have looked like had he played his prime in Minute Maid. His first season there, at age 32, he hit 47 home runs, drove in 132 and scored 152 runs. You can count on one finger the number of players scoring that many runs in a season since the Great Depression.

In terms of career numbers and rate numbers, none of the other hitters on the ballot except McGwire is really in the same class as Bagwell. But then Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin were no-brainers last year, and the BBWAA dicked them around, so it is unfortunate but not surprising that Bagwell may not be selected on this ballot.

All of this is meaningless to most of the BBWAA. Even many of the writers saying they voted for Bagwell seem only to have just discovered him. People can write all they want about Bagwell being on the fence, but had Bagwell posted the same numbers playing for the Yankees or Red Sox, there would be no doubt that he would be elected on the first ballot with no difficulty. This has less to do with Bagwell than it does with the myopia and provincialism of the BBWAA.


I agree with your post, the only thing I would add is that Park Factor itself doesn't take into account HR splits (just runs), which is largely what the Bagwell debate is about.  Home runs obviously add runs, but so does small ball.  ESPN has Park Factors that are broken down for doubles, triples, and HR, but unfortunately, they don't go back that far.  The question then becomes whether the Dome suppressed home runs, but was less hostile in other areas, allowing for its Park Factor of 95.  In other words, if the Dome had a HR factor of say, 90, a 40 HR season at the Dome may not translate (theoretically) to a 42 HR season at a neutral park, but could translate (again theoretically) to a 44 HR season.  He probably wouldn't have reached 500 HR, but his rate stats would have looked even better.

pots

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2010, 10:00:36 am »
Bags hit more homeruns at home than on the road 4 out of 9 Astrodome years).  Bags swung hard, real damn hard.  If he hit it square with elevation, it usually didn't matter where he was playing.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 10:30:47 am by pots »

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2010, 10:04:53 am »
The question then becomes whether the Dome suppressed home runs, but was less hostile in other areas, allowing for its Park Factor of 95.

Wasn't the Dome friendly to doubles and triples, or am I remembering wrong?

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2010, 10:07:50 am »
Wasn't the Dome friendly to doubles and triples, or am I remembering wrong?

Biggio and doubles
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2010, 10:13:40 am »
Biggio and doubles

yeah, Biggio only hit so many doubles because he played in a double friendly park...he really does not belong in the HOF

astrosfan76

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2010, 10:41:54 am »
Bags hit more homeruns at home than on the road most years.  Bags swung hard, real damn hard.  If he hit it square with elevation, it usually didn't matter where he was playing.

Players generally hit better at home, also.  ESPN has splits for 7 of his Dome seasons, in 4 seasons he hit more HR at home, 3 seasons saw more on the road.  Only 3 of those seasons saw more than a 1 HR difference, though; a +6 Home split, a +7 split, and a -18 split.  He also averaged 39 doubles from '96-'99, so not every hard-hit ball went out. 

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2010, 10:43:37 am »
yeah, Biggio only hit so many doubles because he played in a double friendly park...he really does not belong in the HOF

People need to print this and pin it on their fridge.  You will see it again when he's Hall-eligible.  Guaran-fucking-tted.
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pots

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2010, 10:47:09 am »
If Bagwell is still not in when Biggio hits the ballet, the writers will fall all over themselves to put them in on the same ticket.  After all they are writers and writers love a good story.


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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2010, 10:55:17 am »
People need to print this and pin it on their fridge.  You will see it again when he's Hall-eligible.  Guaran-fucking-tted.

I disagree, Biggio has 3,000.  They may waffle, but he goes in first ballot.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2010, 11:28:04 am »
I disagree, Biggio has 3,000.  They may waffle, but he goes in first ballot.

Of course.  But that doesn't mean that Richard Justice some doucgebag isn't going to use this as justification not to vote for him.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2010, 05:10:26 pm »
I was going to make a snarky comment about how he had basically the same stats the year before when the Astros were still playing in the Dome, but when I actually looked at the splits its was sort of interesting.

1999 Splits
Code: [Select]
Split    G   BA   OBP  SLG   OPS  
Home    82 .271 .430 .469   .899
Away    80 .337 .477 .709  1.186

2000 Splits
Code: [Select]
Split    G    BA   OBP  SLG    OPS
Home    80  .353  .462 .720   1.182
Away    79  .270  .389 .516    .905

Statistical variation and all that, but its hard to believe he wouldn't have won another MVP in the late 90s had he played in MMP.
Ballpark aside, he would've one the MVP in 1999 if the writers weren't too busy worshipping at the altar of Chipper and his timely hot streak to notice Bags' truly awesome full-season numbers. Sorry, but that one still bothers me.
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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2010, 10:39:28 pm »
Over Bagwell's career, the park factor in his home parks was 98, moderately favoring pitchers.

Right, so this was impressive work and all, but I wasn't fucking with you.   We (you and I) figured this out about 5 years ago and the number we came up with was...at BEST 17 extra HRs.   He was nowhere near 500 and, no matter how you slice it, still a fucking Hall of Famer.

Arky Vaughan

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2010, 02:07:23 am »
Right, so this was impressive work and all, but I wasn't fucking with you.   We (you and I) figured this out about 5 years ago and the number we came up with was...at BEST 17 extra HRs.   He was nowhere near 500 and, no matter how you slice it, still a fucking Hall of Famer.

I vaguely remember that exercise. And I agree it is very difficult to make the case that a player would have hit X home runs had he played in this park instead of that park. By its nature, proving a counterfactual is impossible.

It is worth noting, however, that Bagwell hit 126 home runs in 2,832 plate appearances in the Dome and 108 home runs in 1,812 plate appearaces in Minute Maid. In other words, Bagwell hit 4.46 home runs per 100 plate appearances in the Dome and 5.96 home runs per 100 plate appearances in Minute Maid.

If you take the difference in those rates of 1.5 home runs per 100 plate appearances, and multiply by the 2,832 plate appearances in the Dome, you get 42 additional home runs. That would take him from 449 home runs to 491 home runs.

So it is not outlandish to suggest that had Bagwell played his first nine seasons in a home environment like Minute Maid rather than the Dome, he would have done some things even more eye-popping than what he actually did.

There is no good reason that Minute Maid should be the baseline any more than the Dome, however. Nor does any of this speculation matter, since by any objective historical standard of Hall of Fame voting, Bagwell is eminently qualified for induction in any event. There is no need to project an alternate reality to make the case for him.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2010, 08:41:55 am »
Yeah, but we were trying to figure out the difference if he played his entire career in a neutral park, not MM.   

If he had played his entire career at MM and hit 491 HRs, the media would have written those all off as fake HRs.   

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2010, 09:05:21 am »
Yeah, but we were trying to figure out the difference if he played his entire career in a neutral park, not MM.   

If he had played his entire career at MM and hit 491 HRs, the media would have written those all off as fake HRs.   

That would be the case only if they knew he existed.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2010, 12:19:03 pm »
Paul Daughtery from Cincinnati says Bags is on the fence.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/daugherty/2010/12/21/the-morning-line-1221-2/


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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2010, 04:59:15 pm »
Late to this party. Paul Daughtery. Sentence fragments. Loves them.

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Re: I just blacked out in an apoplectic rage
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2010, 09:15:29 pm »
Cabrera.  Brave.  Higher up.

The fuck are you talking about?
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