Hmmm...

[pots]

"To me, Hunter is an RBI guy," Cooper said. "That's why he hits down in the order. I told him in that second pitch I thought he might have been trying to go the other way a little bit. I told him I didn't want him to ever do that. He's an RBI guy, and we need him to drive in runs for us to be successful."

[MusicMan]

Holy jumping Jesus on a pogo stick.

[Ron Brand]

WadeSmith can't see that and let it go. That's as wrong as wrong can be.

[Ebby Calvin]

April 28, 2009.  Just wanted to mark the day that I lost all hope for Coop.  I didn't have much left, but this is fucking stupid.
This could really screw up Thunderpants' career, too, if his first MLB manager discourages "See the ball, hit the ball."  As if Pence doesn't have enough rattling around in his cantaloupe while he's up there.

[Fredia]

isnt a hit a hit a hit (a rose a rose a rose) and isnt it a bit early in mr ps career to be branding him as mr rbi

[hostros7]

The part most baffling to me is how Cooper is juxtaposing being an "RBI guy" and "hitting the other way" as being contradictory.  Just because Hunter drove an outside pitch to right doesn't mean he's suddenly become a slap hitter.  He crushed that ball in the eigth.  Great piece of hitting. 

[otterjb]

Always try to pull the ball? Seriously? Cooper apparently isn't thinking and doesn't want Pence to either, it seems.

[JimR]

"To me, Hunter is an RBI guy," Cooper said. "That's why he hits down in the order. I told him in that second pitch I thought he might have been trying to go the other way a little bit. I told him I didn't want him to ever do that. He's an RBI guy, and we need him to drive in runs for us to be successful."

the exact opposite of what JD said he was working on in BP. he won the game DRIVING the ball the other way. so, he should roll over on it trying to pull an outside pitch?

Cooper is a fucking disaster.

[MusicMan]

Cooper is a fucking disaster.

Bingo.

Maybe Hunter would display better baseball IQ if he had someone teaching him properly.

[Astroholic]

the exact opposite of what JD said he was working on in BP. he won the game DRIVING the ball the other way. so, he should roll over on it trying to pull an outside pitch?

Cooper is a fucking disaster.

I am still hoping that when he says things like this he is fucking with the media.  Of coarse, I still can't get past his daily lineup changes.  Drayton....It is time for a change.  


All boo birds out there....we need you.

[Taras Bulba]

Pence (and a lot of players) could probably benefit from a Charlie Manuel/Jimy Williams regime.

[juliogotay]

Coop was an outstanding hitter and I seem to remember him using the whole field.

[HudsonHawk]

As devil's advocate here, perhaps Coop's comments were out of context.  I can see him telling Pence not to be a punch hitter early in the count.  Look for a pitch you can drive, and that usually means a ball on the inside half of the plate.  The ball he hit last night in the 9th was on an 0-2 count, so he had to swing at it.  Maybe what Coop is saying is lay off those pitches early, but be ready to go with them when you have to. 

[ValpoCory]

 Drayton....It is time for a change.  

Something tells me Drayton's not going to get that message.

[jaklewein]

As devil's advocate here, perhaps Coop's comments were out of context.  I can see him telling Pence not to be a punch hitter early in the count.  Look for a pitch you can drive, and that usually means a ball on the inside half of the plate.  The ball he hit last night in the 9th was on an 0-2 count, so he had to swing at it.  Maybe what Coop is saying is lay off those pitches early, but be ready to go with them when you have to. 

In addition...I think Coop may have been talking about what seemed to be Pence making a strong effort to take the ball to the right side early in the count...and maybe doing so to move the runners along with no outs.

[JimR]

As devil's advocate here, perhaps Coop's comments were out of context.  I can see him telling Pence not to be a punch hitter early in the count.  Look for a pitch you can drive, and that usually means a ball on the inside half of the plate.  The ball he hit last night in the 9th was on an 0-2 count, so he had to swing at it.  Maybe what Coop is saying is lay off those pitches early, but be ready to go with them when you have to. 

oh, please. no way.

[Astroholic]

Something tells me Drayton's not going to get that message.

What you mean he does not lurk here?

[MusicMan]

What you mean he does not lurk here?

He has people to do that for him.  I'm pretty sure Filo's one of them.

[JackAstro]

As devil's advocate here, perhaps Coop's comments were out of context.  I can see him telling Pence not to be a punch hitter early in the count.  Look for a pitch you can drive, and that usually means a ball on the inside half of the plate.  The ball he hit last night in the 9th was on an 0-2 count, so he had to swing at it.  Maybe what Coop is saying is lay off those pitches early, but be ready to go with them when you have to. 

No, it's really as bad as it reads.

Cordero (0-1), who entered the game with a 1.29 ERA and six saves, struggled, allowing Carlos Lee and Miguel Tejada to hit back-to-back singles. Pence came to the plate and fell into an 0-2 hole, and Astros manager Cecil Cooper could swear he thought Pence was trying to hit the ball the opposite way to right field. It's not what Cooper wanted to see.

"To me, Hunter is an RBI guy," Cooper said. "That's why he hits down in the order. I told him in that second pitch I thought he might have been trying to go the other way a little bit. I told him I didn't want him to ever do that. He's an RBI guy, and we need him to drive in runs for us to be successful."

Pence said he wasn't necessarily looking to go the other way, but after falling behind in the count to Cordero, he simply focused on protecting the plate.

"That's all you can do off of him at that point is just try to stay inside a fastball and keep your hands back in case of a slider," Pence said. "Cordero challenged me. Sometimes they hit you, and sometimes you hit them. Fortunately, I was able to find a hole."


Coop really is talking about the 0-2 pitch that Pence drove to the alley. The one that he would have dribbled to short if he had tried to pull it. That's the one that Coop doesn't want him hitting the other way, ever. Because that's not what an RBI guy does.

I'll extend anyone the benefit of the doubt, but this is indefensibly idiotic.

[HudsonHawk]

oh, please. no way.

Just trying to give him some benefit of the doubt, trying to get inside his head here.  Do you really think he's teaching hitters to try to pull outside pitches?

[JimR]

Just trying to give him some benefit of the doubt, trying to get inside his head here.  Do you really think he's teaching hitters to try to pull outside pitches?

i think he is a fucking disaster.

[HudsonHawk]

No, it's really as bad as it reads.

Cordero (0-1), who entered the game with a 1.29 ERA and six saves, struggled, allowing Carlos Lee and Miguel Tejada to hit back-to-back singles. Pence came to the plate and fell into an 0-2 hole, and Astros manager Cecil Cooper could swear he thought Pence was trying to hit the ball the opposite way to right field. It's not what Cooper wanted to see.

"To me, Hunter is an RBI guy," Cooper said. "That's why he hits down in the order. I told him in that second pitch I thought he might have been trying to go the other way a little bit. I told him I didn't want him to ever do that. He's an RBI guy, and we need him to drive in runs for us to be successful."

Pence said he wasn't necessarily looking to go the other way, but after falling behind in the count to Cordero, he simply focused on protecting the plate.

"That's all you can do off of him at that point is just try to stay inside a fastball and keep your hands back in case of a slider," Pence said. "Cordero challenged me. Sometimes they hit you, and sometimes you hit them. Fortunately, I was able to find a hole."


Coop really is talking about the 0-2 pitch that Pence drove to the alley. The one that he would have dribbled to short if he had tried to pull it. That's the one that Coop doesn't want him hitting the other way, ever. Because that's not what an RBI guy does.

I'll extend anyone the benefit of the doubt, but this is indefensibly idiotic.

Coop specifically states he's talking about the 0-1 pitch, not the 0-2 pitch.  I just have a hard time believing that Cecil Cooper would teach his players to roll over on a fastball on the outside.

[Astroholic]

Just trying to give him some benefit of the doubt, trying to get inside his head here.  Do you really think he's teaching hitters to try to pull outside pitches?

Sounds like it.  Again I am hoping he is just fucking with the media.

[HudsonHawk]

i think he is a fucking disaster.

So you really think he's teaching them that?  Ok, why?  There are only two choices: 1) he doesn't know any better or 2) he's trying to lose.  I can't really see either one.

[MusicMan]

Sounds like it.  Again I am hoping he is just fucking with the media.

I cannot conclusively say what Coop does or does not do inside the locker room.

But I can say that the preponderance of evidence shows that he has no fucking clue how to deal with the media, much less fuck with them properly.

[JimR]

Coop specifically states he's talking about the 0-1 pitch, not the 0-2 pitch.  I just have a hard time believing that Cecil Cooper would teach his players to roll over on a fastball on the outside.

"i told him i didn't want him to EVER do that." (emphasis)

[HudsonHawk]

"i told him i didn't want him to EVER do that." (emphasis)

When talking specifically about a situation early in the count.  That's why I'm thinking his comments may be out of context, or he just worded them poorly. 

[Astroholic]

I cannot conclusively say what Coop does or does not do inside the locker room.

But I can say that the preponderance of evidence shows that he has no fucking clue how to deal with the media, much less fuck with them properly.

Just trying to give him the benefit of the doub...oh nevermind...he is a idiot.

[Astroholic]

No, it's really as bad as it reads.

[
"To me, Hunter is an RBI guy," Cooper said. "That's why he hits down in the order.

Wonder what he thinks about Miggy, Bourn and Matsui?  You guys is right..he has to be clueless.

[Bench]

When talking specifically about a situation early in the count.  That's why I'm thinking his comments may be out of context, or he just worded them poorly. 

His comments are clearly non-sensical. 

[JackAstro]

Coop specifically states he's talking about the 0-1 pitch, not the 0-2 pitch.  I just have a hard time believing that Cecil Cooper would teach his players to roll over on a fastball on the outside.

I have a hard time believing a major league manager would be that stupid, too, so I understand the doubt. But Coop has mixed up details of counts and specific game situations in his pressers and interviews many times before, so this wouldn't be new ground. The 0-1 pitch was an inside fastball - I don't remember Hunter trying to go the other way with it, but I'm not sure.

If Coop wants to say that he never wants Pence to go the other way with an inside fastball, then I'm right there with him. But he said that he doesn't ever want him hitting the other way (in a situation where he was either down 0-1 or 0-2), because he's an RBI guy. Regardless of the context, that's a dumb statement. Hopefully, he meant something else, but he didn't come close to saying something that made any sense whatsoever.

Personally? I think Coop's obsessed with getting guys to fit neatly into these very specific molds he's created in his head, and he expresses it very badly to the media when they do something that doesn't fit that mold - even when the situation called for it, and the results were desirable.

[MusicMan]

Especially when I think a lot of our frustration is born of the fact that the Franchise, who has had such glaring, fundamental flaws, finally looks to be turning a corner in his plate approach, and these comments make it sound like Coop does not want that corner to be turned.

[sporadic]

When talking specifically about a situation early in the count.  That's why I'm thinking his comments may be out of context, or he just worded them poorly. 

I thought the exact same thing, although my agreeing with you should not be all that comforting.  Aside from that aspect, I was taught to go to right-center with pitches way and use the middle of the field on anything middle or middle in.  I cannot ever recall being asked to "pull" the ball at any time.  Was this poor coaching or correct?  I stayed inside of the ball well and was a good contact hitter, but was by no means a power hitter.  I did not play after little league, choosing to go with my best chances for life after high school.  I guess what I am wanting to know if my little league coach knew more than Coop (I also hit 2nd almost every game I played for that particular coach).

[Limey]

Always try to pull the ball? Seriously? Cooper apparently isn't thinking and doesn't want Pence to either, it seems.

Coop will find that Mr RBI becomes Mr DP very quickly.

[JimR]

I thought the exact same thing, although my agreeing with you should not be all that comforting.  Aside from that aspect, I was taught to go to right-center with pitches way and use the middle of the field on anything middle or middle in.  I cannot ever recall being asked to "pull" the ball at any time.  Was this poor coaching or correct?  I stayed inside of the ball well and was a good contact hitter, but was by no means a power hitter.  I did not play after little league, choosing to go with my best chances for life after high school.  I guess what I am wanting to know if my little league coach knew more than Coop (I also hit 2nd almost every game I played for that particular coach).

i do not think one should be coached to pull. what i was told by a former player who reached AAA was that he was taught to hit as you say and to rely on his hands to pull an inside pitch.

[jaklewein]

I have a hard time believing a major league manager would be that stupid, too, so I understand the doubt. But Coop has mixed up details of counts and specific game situations in his pressers and interviews many times before, so this wouldn't be new ground. The 0-1 pitch was an inside fastball - I don't remember Hunter trying to go the other way with it, but I'm not sure.

I'm almost positive Pence tried to go the other way on both of the first two pitches.

[JimR]

I'm almost positive Pence tried to go the other way on both of the first two pitches.

well, if he had been working on that in BP, why the hell not? you see, Coop, an RBI means he has driven in a fucking run. he can do that with a single to RF. it may not be as manly, but it counts.

[Astroholic]

well, if he had been working on that in BP, why the hell not? you see, Coop, an RBI means he has driven in a fucking run. he can do that with a single to RF. it may not be as manly, but it counts.

Lee is an RBI guy and with two strikes, he has no problem going to opposite field.  Coop is FOS.

[JimR]

Lee is an RBI guy and with two strikes, he has no problem going to opposite field.  Coop is FOS.

and he goes with the pitch earlier in the count, too.

[sporadic]

and he goes with the pitch earlier in the count, too.

if a strike is thrown, then you have to be prepared to hit it where it is thrown, IMO.  You can look location until you get behind in the count, but need to be able to cover the strike zone after that.

[Limey]

if a strike is thrown, then you have to be prepared to hit it where it is thrown, IMO.  You can look location until you get behind in the count, but need to be able to cover the strike zone after that.

This is the basic premise of any sport where you hit a moving ball* with some kind of implement.  I am gobsmacked that Cooper is proffering anything to the contrary.

* Golf being the exception here, because that little fucker's sitting dead still...and I can still roll it over to the shortstop!

[Noe]

I was as perplexed as anyone on Cooper's remarks and like HH, I tend to believe Cooper's interviewer had the context of what he was saying but failed to imply it well enough in this article.  I really think Cooper needs the benefit of the doubt here.  Having said that, it took me back to the days of Terry Puhl and his first years with the Astros.

When Puhl came up to the majors he was told he needed to hit for more power.  That meant he needed to drive inside pitches instead of doing the typical Puhl thing of hitting for high average by letting the ball travel inside more and then slapping the ball up the middle or towards left field.  Puhl was great at hitting to left, later on in his career hitting from gap to gap with a little more power.  He never really developed a mentality to hit for power down the right field line at the Astrodome.  Good for him, because he would've been a poor power hitter in that cavernous park.  What Cooper may be suggesting to Pence is to not develop the approach that Puhl used to be a great high average hitter.  Given that Pence is in a run producing position in the lineup, look to drive the ball more.

It is too bad that Cooper is having this conversation when Spaz did an excellent job of driving in runs doing what Puhl did as commonplace to his approach to hitting.  Cooper should not send mixed messages, he should be clear with his young hitter that much like Bourn hitting a massive homerun to right on Saturday night, that is good if the situation was that they were busting him inside and he needed to adjust.  Pence was at a 0-2 pitch against a power pitcher who has a power forkball.  Pence did exactly what one must do to spoil those forkballs and sit on a fastball... let the ball travel and then react.

[Mr. Happy]

Jeebus. Cooper is a disaster. Limey's right about turning into a DP man, even with his speed. Or he'll become Mr. FC.

[Limey]

Jeebus. Cooper is a disaster. Limey's right about turning into a DP man, even with his speed. Or he'll become Mr. FC.

Mr Fuck the Cubs?

[Phil_in_CS]

Mr Fuck the Cubs?

Maybe that should be the title of the player of the month award.

[Mr. Happy]

Mr Fuck the Cubs?

That's a given. Fielder's Choice is what I meant.

[JimR]

I was as perplexed as anyone on Cooper's remarks and like HH, I tend to believe Cooper's interviewer had the context of what he was saying but failed to imply it well enough in this article.  I really think Cooper needs the benefit of the doubt here.  Having said that, it took me back to the days of Terry Puhl and his first years with the Astros.

When Puhl came up to the majors he was told he needed to hit for more power.  That meant he needed to drive inside pitches instead of doing the typical Puhl thing of hitting for high average by letting the ball travel inside more and then slapping the ball up the middle or towards left field.  Puhl was great at hitting to left, later on in his career hitting from gap to gap with a little more power.  He never really developed a mentality to hit for power down the right field line at the Astrodome.  Good for him, because he would've been a poor power hitter in that cavernous park.  What Cooper may be suggesting to Pence is to not develop the approach that Puhl used to be a great high average hitter.  Given that Pence is in a run producing position in the lineup, look to drive the ball more.

It is too bad that Cooper is having this conversation when Spaz did an excellent job of driving in runs doing what Puhl did as commonplace to his approach to hitting.  Cooper should not send mixed messages, he should be clear with his young hitter that much like Bourn hitting a massive homerun to right on Saturday night, that is good if the situation was that they were busting him inside and he needed to adjust.  Pence was at a 0-2 pitch against a power pitcher who has a power forkball.  Pence did exactly what one must do to spoil those forkballs and sit on a fastball... let the ball travel and then react.

if i had any doubts about Cooper, i would give him the benefit of them. i do not, however.

[DVauthrin]

The only way Cooper doesn't come across as a complete idiot is if he felt Hunter was trying to go the other way even when the pitch was on the inner third.    Otherwise, he needs to be let go of his managerial duties as soon as possible for trying to teach a young hitter not to use all fields with authority.    Newsflash, Coop, a great RBI man uses all fields with authority, hitting pitches where they are thrown.

That said, I'm very encouraged by Pence's quote in the same piece.   That is the approach used by any elite hitter in the game.    He seems to be learning.

[pravata]

Michael Bourn and Hunter Pence are both doing the same thing, they're letting the ball "travel".  Thank you Sean Berry, fuck you Cecil Cooper.

[Noe]

Michael Bourn and Hunter Pence are both doing the same thing, they're letting the ball "travel".  Thank you Sean Berry, fuck you Cecil Cooper.

Ab-freaking-lutely.  It's turning Bourn into a very good starting player because his defense is already superior.  Now if he masters the art of on occasion cheating on an inside fastball and making *it* travel a long way (as he did on Saturday), he puts serious doubt in the mind of a pitcher who thinks he can exploit the inside on Bourn.  And of course, on the outside half, Bourn is learning to let the ball travel before hitting it to left field.  It gives you that extra nano-second of recognition and also allows you to spit on pitches.  Guess what that does?  Yup, increases you BB production which in turn makes for a healthy OBP.  Signs of a leadoff man in the vein of a poor man's Tony Gwynn.  On occasion Gwynn would cheat on inside pitches and turn on them.  But more often than not, he would let the ball travel deep before hitting it with authority to left, left center and up the middle.

[pravata]

Ab-freaking-lutely.  It's turning Bourn into a very good starting player because his defense is already superior.  Now if he masters the art of on occasion cheating on an inside fastball and making *it* travel a long way (as he did on Saturday), he puts serious doubt in the mind of a pitcher who thinks he can exploit the inside on Bourn.  And of course, on the outside half, Bourn is learning to let the ball travel before hitting it to left field.  It gives you that extra nano-second of recognition and also allows you to spit on pitches.  Guess what that does?  Yup, increases you BB production which in turn makes for a healthy OBP.  Signs of a leadoff man in the vein of a poor man's Tony Gwynn.  On occasion Gwynn would cheat on inside pitches and turn on them.  But more often than not, he would let the ball travel deep before hitting it with authority to left, left center and up the middle.

Berry was smiling and shaking his head the other night when Bourn homered.  JD noted it and made a comment about Berry's ensuing difficulties convincing him to go to left.  But it's two different approaches.  Turn on the inside fastball.

[strosrays]

The part most baffling to me is how Cooper is juxtaposing being an "RBI guy" and "hitting the other way" as being contradictory.  Just because Hunter drove an outside pitch to right doesn't mean he's suddenly become a slap hitter.  He crushed that ball in the eigth.  Great piece of hitting. 

A: 1529

Q: What is the career total of RBIs for Jeff Bagwell, Alex.

Jeff Bagwell who was, by the way, known for taking the outside pitch and driving it to the right center gap, or out of the fucking park, while numerous runners circled the bases.  Jeff Kent fits the description, too, among many others.

I am trying to imagine Cooper telling Bagwell or Kent they cannot drive the outside pitch to right anymore, ever.

[pravata]

A: 1529

Q: What is the career total of RBIs for Jeff Bagwell, Alex.

Jeff Bagwell who was, by the way, known for taking the outside pitch and driving it to the right center gap, or out of the fucking park, while numerous runners circled the bases.  Jeff Kent fits the description, too, among many others.

I am trying to imagine Cooper telling Bagwell or Kent they cannot drive the outside pitch to right anymore, ever.

Yep. Coop picked his spot there, caught a break.

[juliogotay]

A: 1529

Q: What is the career total of RBIs for Jeff Bagwell, Alex.

Jeff Bagwell who was, by the way, known for taking the outside pitch and driving it to the right center gap, or out of the fucking park, while numerous runners circled the bases.  Jeff Kent fits the description, too, among many others.

I am trying to imagine Cooper telling Bagwell or Kent they cannot drive the outside pitch to right anymore, ever.

And this is what is so baffeling. As I said earlier in this thread, Cooper was a damn fine hitter who used the whole field.

[JackAstro]

...Jeff Bagwell who was, by the way, known for taking the outside pitch and driving it to the right center gap, or out of the fucking park, while numerous runners circled the bases...

Yes. That's how you can tell he's heating up.

-Bill W.

[Phil_in_CS]

And this is what is so baffeling. As I said earlier in this thread, Cooper was a damn fine hitter who used the whole field.

Ted Williams was 273-364 as a manager. He was a pretty decent hitter himself.

[Rebel Jew]

Ted Williams was 273-364 as a manager. He was a pretty decent hitter himself.

i don't know anything about this one way or another, but was ted williams really as crappy a manager as everyone says?  what kind of talent did he have on his teams?  how did his players perform compared to when he wasn't manager?  did any of his players improve under his watch?  how was his team the year before and year after he took over?  are there specific stories out there about his players not being able to communicate with him?

[Noe]

i don't know anything about this one way or another, but was ted williams really as crappy a manager as everyone says?  what kind of talent did he have on his teams?  how did his players perform compared to when he wasn't manager?  did any of his players improve under his watch?  how was his team the year before and year after he took over?  are there specific stories out there about his players not being able to communicate with him?

From most accounts, he had a decent enough team but Teddy's insistence that players perform to his own standards put undue pressure on players who were better suited to have a manager understand how to use their strengths, not change them to do something they were not capable of doing.  Ted was said to have to take extended vacations away from the team in order to clear his head (mostly fishing trips) because he just didn't understand why his players "didn't get it".

Players tried hard to meet his expectations but in the end wound up trying to do things they had no talent to do and thus changing from their own strength into failures.

[juliogotay]

Ted Williams was 273-364 as a manager. He was a pretty decent hitter himself.

I'm not sure what Ted Williams has to do with this thread other than he was a great hitter that managed. Did he tell his players not to go with outside pitches to the opposite field?

Since the question was asked, Williams first managed the Senators in 1969 and got 86-76 out of a team that went 65-96 the previous season. He managed three more seasons in Washington and Arlington and won fewer games each subsequent season ending with a 54-100 season in 1972. In 1969 both the hitting and pitching of the Senators improved from the previous season. I do not know what this has to do with Cecil Cooper.

[Noe]

I'm not sure what Ted Williams has to do with this thread other than he was a great hitter that managed. Did he tell his players not to go with outside pitches to the opposite field?

Since the question was asked, Williams first managed the Senators in 1969 and got 86-76 out of a team that went 65-96 the previous season. He managed three more seasons in Washington and Arlington and won fewer games each subsequent season ending with a 54-100 season in 1972. In 1969 both the hitting and pitching of the Senators improved from the previous season. I do not know what this has to do with Cecil Cooper.

The Splendid Splinter is often used as the prime example why superstars (in any sport, but in this case baseball) oft time struggle as managers.   The reasons are often the same thing pointed to in Teddy's case:

1. Superstars do things instinctively and based on a great amount of talent mixed with a high sport IQ (often called "slowing the game down")
2. Superstars do not understand why other players cannot see or do what comes easy for them
3. Superstars have little patience for extended periods of "getting it" and thus have really short leashes for players they manage.

When you see a successful player making a trek over to manager, often you have to watch for these tendencies because they are about to take the team down a very frustrating extended period of maneuvers and decisions.  Cooper said this off-season he learned last season that he was very impatient and that hurt the team, so he was going to make a concerted effort to be more patient.  You could see evidence of the Ted Williams syndrome in Cecil's first full season as a manager.  As a bench coach, you're not prone to making decisions at the level of a manager, so you don't learn patience and handling young and veteran players.

All some are saying is that the evolution of Cooper as a manager is happening in parallel to the team's run for coming together.  Ironic given the owners desire for a team that is a contender.  If you have a manager that has to learn how to be patient, it is going to effect the team for that period of time he's learning that.  If Cooper shuns the learning period and just decides the heck with it, I'm going to manage these players *like I managed myself*, then you can see how his handling of Pence, Bourn and others can be affected.

And veterans on the team are watching and will notice this and if they start to develop an impression of the manager, then they will think they're playing for the wrong man if they think said impression is not favorable.

[jaklewein]

The only way Cooper doesn't come across as a complete idiot is if he felt Hunter was trying to go the other way even when the pitch was on the inner third.   

I suppose I'm beating a dead horse here, but I really believe this to be the case.  I think Pence was thinking "hit the ball the other way" at all costs in the sense that he was going to help the team manufacture a run by moving the runners along.  If he got a hit, bonus, but a weak grounder or marginal fly ball to right would've been ok with him so long as the runner on 2nd was able to advance to third.  I seem to remember both of the first two pitches being in...and Pence trying to hit them to the right side.  Obviously all bets were off after falling behind 0-2 as he said.

[Noe]

I suppose I'm beating a dead horse here, but I really believe this to be the case.  I think Pence was thinking "hit the ball the other way" at all costs in the sense that he was going to help the team manufacture a run by moving the runners along.  If he got a hit, bonus, but a weak grounder or marginal fly ball to right would've been ok with him so long as the runner on 2nd was able to advance to third.  I seem to remember both of the first two pitches being in...and Pence trying to hit them to the right side.  Obviously all bets were off after falling behind 0-2 as he said.

Could also be an indication that someone *other* than Cooper is talking to the kid about situational hitting.  Coop had his answer in place in terms of driving in runs, but whoever is talking to Pence after hours (like Doran and others talked to Biggio after hours as well) is doing well to get the kid to start to think how little things help a team win.

[jaklewein]

Could also be an indication that someone *other* than Cooper is talking to the kid about situational hitting.  Coop had his answer in place in terms of driving in runs, but whoever is talking to Pence after hours (like Doran and others talked to Biggio after hours as well) is doing well to get the kid to start to think how little things help a team win.

I hope you're right.

[Noe]

I hope you're right.

I have no inside information to prove it, but players do talk.  Veterans do help young players.  But it is rare for a veteran to go against a manager unless they think the manager isn't helping the kid progress.  I have no idea if Cooper has a disconnect with the veterans and even his own bench coaches (like Berry).  Pravata has pointed out some inconsistencies, including the latest story about Berry pointing out that "there is plenty of food out in right field" to the kid.  It has context, so does Cooper's comments.  Coop has to make sure he's very clear about what he's telling the player though because the last thing you want is confusion in such critical situations.  Little things win ballgames and little things also create consistency in performance as well.

[strosrays]

As someone mentioned, Williams did a remarkable job with the 1969 Senators.  But Washington was always a second-rate operation, and they reverted to form after that, then moved to Arlington.  The early Rangers were a complete disaster all around, read Mike Shropshire's book (seriously, it is hilarious.)  Williams did not fare well with the Rangers, bottoming out in 1972 at 54-100 (that was a strike-shortened season.)  His replacement was Whitey Herzog, who couldn't even get through a full year with that traveling horseshit show (47-91).

Williams was often referred to as a terrific teacher of the art of hitting in his time, though.  Tony Gwynn, who befriended Williams in his final years, sure thought so.  Williams gave Gwynn, already a sure-fire HOFer, some advice on turning on the inside pitches that Gwynn swears was a revelation to him at the time, something he should have known all along or maybe did once but forgot.  But Williams picked it out right away.  On that 1969 Senators team, Williams had light-hitting SS Ed Brinkman (lifetime .224/.280/.300) hitting .266/.328/.325.  LH power-hitting 1B Mike Epstein (lifetime .244/.358/.454) hit 30 HRs and .278/.414/.551, all career highs by far.  3B Ken McMullen (lifetime .248/.316/.383) went .272/.349/.425.  And so on.  All those guys credited Williams with working with them to improve their approach.  Each was traded away a year or so later -- Washington was a foundering concern without an apparent cohesive plan, and consequently had a high roster turnover -- and each's offense fell off dramatically after getting away from Williams.  Could be a coincidence, of course.  But Brinkman for one specifically said that when he got to Detroit he fell back into bad habits without Williams harping on him every day, and his hitting dropped off significantly.  Back before the Washington years, Williams had been an unofficial hitting coach with the Red Sox, mostly during spring training when he wasn't fishing.  Yastrzemski has mentioned getting help from him, Rico Petrocelli said Williams had him turning on middle-in pitches, aiming for the Green Monster.  Prior to that Petrocelli, then a SS, had been a spray hitter.  After, he hit 40 HRs.  Reggie Smith has mentioned getting help from Williams, as well.

Williams may not have been a good manager, but unlike Cooper apparently, he had a very clear idea about a proper approach to good hitting, was passionate about it to the end (ask Gwynn), and by many accounts was pretty good at getting it across to younger players.  I don't think he is a fair comp to Cooper in that regard.  To put it another way, I wish we could unfreeze Teddy Ballgame and have him talk to Pence about his approach, such as it is, at the plate.  But would Pence listen?

[Noe]

As someone mentioned, Williams did a remarkable job with the 1969 Senators.  But Washington was always a second-rate operation, and they reverted to form after that, then moved to Arlington.  The early Rangers were a complete disaster all around, read Mike Shropshire's book (seriously, it is hilarious.)  Williams did not fare well with the Rangers, bottoming out in 1972 at 54-100 (that was a strike-shortened season.)  His replacement was Whitey Herzog, who couldn't even get through a full year with that traveling horseshit show (47-91).

Williams was often referred to as a terrific teacher of the art of hitting in his time, though.  Tony Gwynn, who befriended Williams in his final years, sure thought so.  Williams gave Gwynn, already a sure-fire HOFer, some advice on turning on the inside pitches that Gwynn swears was a revelation to him at the time, something he should have known all along or maybe did once but forgot.  But Williams picked it out right away.  On that 1969 Senators team, Williams had light-hitting SS Ed Brinkman (lifetime .224/.280/.300) hitting .266/.328/.325.  LH power-hitting 1B Mike Epstein (lifetime .244/.358/.454) hit 30 HRs and .278/.414/.551, all career highs by far.  3B Ken McMullen (lifetime .248/.316/.383) went .272/.349/.425.  And so on.  All those guys credited Williams with working with them to improve their approach.  Each was traded away a year or so later -- Washington was a foundering concern without an apparent cohesive plan, and consequently had a high roster turnover -- and each's offense fell off dramatically after getting away from Williams.  Could be a coincidence, of course.  But Brinkman for one specifically said that when he got to Detroit he fell back into bad habits without Williams harping on him every day, and his hitting dropped off significantly.  Back before the Washington years, Williams had been an unofficial hitting coach with the Red Sox, mostly during spring training when he wasn't fishing.  Yastrzemski has mentioned getting help from him, Rico Petrocelli said Williams had him turning on middle-in pitches, aiming for the Green Monster.  Prior to that Petrocelli, then a SS, had been a spray hitter.  After, he hit 40 HRs.  Reggie Smith has mentioned getting help from Williams, as well.

Williams may not have been a good manager, but unlike Cooper apparently, he had a very clear idea about a proper approach to good hitting, was passionate about it to the end (ask Gwynn), and by many accounts was pretty good at getting it across to younger players.  I don't think he is a fair comp to Cooper in that regard.  To put it another way, I wish we could unfreeze Teddy Ballgame and have him talk to Pence about his approach, such as it is, at the plate.  But would Pence listen?

Nicely done!  You're absolutely right about the hitting instructor part.  Williams was said to be short-tempered as a manager and really impatient with the overall game the way his players handled situations.  It was in the situations that Williams would place himself and often say "I would usually do this or that, I can't understand why this is so damn hard for you guys".  Maybe unfairly he was blamed for putting way too much managerial pressure on his team, but that is the legacy he left behind.  He rarely disputed that legacy too, he had little regard for lack of seeing the game he saw it by those modern day players.  It was just too hard for him to get over.

But his hitting instruction was sound and that eventually became what he wanted to do in a spring training stint and then walk away (to go fishing).  That proved to be his real passion to give back to the game, but overall manager was not it at all.

[JimR]

I suppose I'm beating a dead horse here, but I really believe this to be the case.  I think Pence was thinking "hit the ball the other way" at all costs in the sense that he was going to help the team manufacture a run by moving the runners along.  If he got a hit, bonus, but a weak grounder or marginal fly ball to right would've been ok with him so long as the runner on 2nd was able to advance to third.  I seem to remember both of the first two pitches being in...and Pence trying to hit them to the right side.  Obviously all bets were off after falling behind 0-2 as he said.

oh, please. mind-reading is quite a talent.

[Mr. Happy]

I think that Ted Williams gets dogged sometimes about having been a bad manager by some in the press who disliked him. Williams was no fan of the press, and vice versa. However, the facts as laid out in this thread show that Williams did a creditable job for the talent he had. This was in the days before free agency, and the reserve clause was still in action. It was a different day and time.

[jaklewein]

oh, please. mind-reading is quite a talent.

I gotta give you credit Jim, I can always count on you to kick me in the nuts.  On the bright side, you used to avoid taking the time to even do that, so I guess I'm making a move in the right direction.  Baby steps...

[OregonStrosFan]

In addition...I think Coop may have been talking about what seemed to be Pence making a strong effort to take the ball to the right side early in the count...and maybe doing so to move the runners along with no outs.

I suppose I'm beating a dead horse here, but I really believe this to be the case.  I think Pence was thinking "hit the ball the other way" at all costs in the sense that he was going to help the team manufacture a run by moving the runners along.  If he got a hit, bonus, but a weak grounder or marginal fly ball to right would've been ok with him so long as the runner on 2nd was able to advance to third.  I seem to remember both of the first two pitches being in...and Pence trying to hit them to the right side.  Obviously all bets were off after falling behind 0-2 as he said.

If I'm understanding (utilizing the jaklewein Coop-to-English translator), what Coop was trying to say was along the lines of: "Pence is there to drive in runs, and I told him that I don't want him trying to hit to the opposite field solely for the purpose of moving folks over so that the next guy can drive them in."

Do Coops comments make more sense in that light?

[JimR]

If I'm understanding (utilizing the jaklewein Coop-to-English translator), what Coop was trying to say was along the lines of: "Pence is there to drive in runs, and I told him that I don't want him trying to hit to the opposite field solely for the purpose of moving folks over so that the next guy can drive them in."

Do Coops comments make more sense in that light?

yeah, but ask jaklewein if that is what Coop was thinking. he knows.

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

Those are some impressive gymnastics: impress the French judge and nail the dismount, and you may have a shot at a gold medal.

[Lurch]

JdJO says Berkman will not start tonight. 

Berkman won't be in the Astros' lineup for tonight's series finale against the Reds, Cooper said. Miguel Tejada will bat third in place of Berkman.

In Cincinatti.  What.  The.  Fuck.

"The timing of it is kind of funny," Berkman said. "It seems like even when I'm struggling and I start to feel better, I look at the schedule and see that we have a trip in here. It's weird how that happens. The last two or three days, even though I haven't gotten many hits, I'm starting to feel more comfortable. I've been seeing the ball better."

[JimR]

JdJO says Berkman will not start tonight. 

In Cincinatti.  What.  The.  Fuck.

someone quick tell us what Coop is thinking! i think he's nuts, but i don't know.

[austro]

JdJO says Berkman will not start tonight. 

In Cincinatti.  What.  The.  Fuck.

Cooper is certifiable.

[pravata]

JdJO says Berkman will not start tonight. 

In Cincinatti.  What.  The.  Fuck.

Consistency, it's all about the consistency.  And this has the consistency of baby poop.

ETA, from the article cited

"...Houston manager Cecil Cooper can tell (that he's been seeing the ball better) "It looks like he's being a lot more selective and staying on the ball better," 

So it's not a mental break. Is Berkman tired? Is he injured? Does he not have clean clothes to wear?  I've got 10 bucks Cooper says, "It's never a good time to sit out a game, I just thought it was time."

[BudGirl]

someone quick tell us what Coop is thinking! i think he's nuts, but i don't know.

beige, he's going to paint the ceiling beige.

[JaneDoe]

someone quick tell us what Coop is thinking! i think he's nuts, but i don't know.

Tacos.

Definitely tacos.

[MRaup]

Tacos.

Definitely tacos.

You're gonna get Noe all riled up.

[pravata]

JDJO says Berkman will not start tonight. 

In the JO style

"This is a tremendously frustrating time for Berkman and his family, and the struggles have weighed on him tremendously."

What a tremendous tool.  He's working on a feature article to explain to us how emotional this is for Berkman.

Here's what Berkman told Footer 04/25/09

Lance Berkman can use many phrases to describe how he feels about his slow start this year: frustrated, disappointed and anxious for the bad stretch to end.

But worried? Not a bit. In true Puma fashion, he summed it up this way:

"I'm either going to end up with my career numbers, or thereabouts. Or, my career will be over. Either way, I'll be happy."
Link

More on Cooper loonacy

Asked if playing at Great American could help Berkman's productivity -- at least mentally -- Cooper crossed his fingers and his arms.

"You see that?" Cooper said. "I have them all crossed, buddy. We need to get him there. Let's get something going."

Astros manager Cecil Cooper said. "Lance swung it really good in spring, and then he had a little lull. Maybe it's time for him to crank it up. We need it about this time."
Link

Consistency baby.

[Bench]

In the JO style

"This is a tremendously frustrating time for Berkman and his family, and the struggles have weighed on him tremendously."

What a tremendous tool.  He's working on a feature article to explain to us how emotional this is for Berkman.

Wait, is he talking about an actual family struggle or just Lance's slow start?

[JackAstro]

I am so fucking confused. Can't he clear the demons out of his head on Thursday or something? THIS IS CINCINNATI FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I'm surprised Roy didn't get his turn in the rotation skipped so he could work on some things...

[Mr. Happy]

His replacement, Erstad, only had 4 AB's and a hit against Volquez last season. I don't get it Cooper. Lance has a good eye and Volquez has been a walk machine this season.

[chuck]

I'm not a huge second-guesser and I'd love to give a baseball lifer such as Coop the benefit of the doubt when it comes to hitting and so on, but sitting Lance in Cincy for any reason whatsoever is absolutely indefensible.

[Mr. Happy]

I'm not a huge second-guesser and I'd love to give a baseball lifer such as Coop the benefit of the doubt when it comes to hitting and so on, but sitting Lance in Cincy for any reason whatsoever is absolutely indefensible.

I don't second guess much either. But I am just beside myself about Berkman not being in the lineup in Cincinnati.

[pravata]

I am so fucking confused. Can't he clear the demons out of his head on Thursday or something? THIS IS CINCINNATI FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I'm surprised Roy didn't get his turn in the rotation skipped so he could work on some things...

These demons are of the two day variety, hence the double gri-gri Cooper put on them. 

[SaltyParker]

His replacement, Erstad, only had 4 AB's and a hit against Volquez last season. I don't get it Cooper. Lance has a good eye and Volquez has been a walk machine this season.

Keppinger would have been a good choice to "work" Volquez also. 20 walks in 20 innings coming into the game but through 6 innings only 73 pitches tonight.

[Reuben]

Keppinger would have been a good choice to "work" Volquez also. 20 walks in 20 innings coming into the game but through 6 innings only 73 pitches tonight.

I'd almost forgotten Keppinger's on the team, he's barely played. You'd think he's the guy who's 0-for-the season and Smith's the one hitting .400.

[jaklewein]

If I'm understanding (utilizing the jaklewein Coop-to-English translator), what Coop was trying to say was along the lines of: "Pence is there to drive in runs, and I told him that I don't want him trying to hit to the opposite field solely for the purpose of moving folks over so that the next guy can drive them in."

Do Coops comments make more sense in that light?

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!  That's it...that's the point I've been trying to make.  Thanks for the translation OSF.  

I don't think Coop's quote had anything to do with the 0-2 pitch.  It had to do with the two pitches prior to and Pence's approach on each.  That still doesn't mean it's the right thing to say but he wouldn't be the first manager to share in that philosophy.

[OregonStrosFan]

Keppinger would have been a good choice to "work" Volquez also. 20 walks in 20 innings coming into the game but through 6 innings only 73 pitches tonight.

No kidding.  Volquez was good tonight but geez, work the friggin' pitcher here and again folks - especially this pitcher.

[Mr. Happy]

No kidding.  Volquez was good tonight but geez, work the friggin' pitcher here and again folks - especially this pitcher.

Volquesz LIVED outside of the strike zone tonight. A patient team would have waxxed him.

[MusicMan]

Yes, but this is anything but a patient team.