Author Topic: Cedeno  (Read 3957 times)

Taras Bulba

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Cedeno
« on: November 14, 2007, 08:44:45 pm »
Nice to read about Cedeno going into the Texas baseball HOF www.astros.com.  For some of us older guys, Cedeno was one hell of a shooting star who never went as far as we all thought he would.  Heck, even Walter Alston when asked if he could take any one player in baseball chose a young Cedeno over everyone else--everybody thought he was going to the top.  Maybe he could and was an example of a career that could have been, or maybe he did the best he could do.  Whatever the case, for me, I remember his amazing speed in the field and on the bases and his sheer audacity.  Once, in a game at the dome against the Mets, a very short fly was hit to Art Shamsky in right field with Cedeno on third and one out.  Upon Shamsky catching what was really a pop up, Cedeno faked a dash to home after tagging.  Shamsky then made a pump throw to home and that was his mistake--Cedeno immediately broke for home and Shamsky's quick throw on target to the plate was late by a dash--Cesar made it home safe in a flash of dust and lightning that electrified anyone who saw it.  What a talent.

Salud, Cesar.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 08:46:20 pm by Taras Bulba »
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Curly

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 09:28:24 pm »
My first baseball hero, and will always be my favorite.

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 10:01:08 pm »
He was a great one. If he hadn't of murdered that prostitute in 1973 there is no telling just
how great he could have been.

Frobie

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 10:03:00 pm »
Don't recall ever seeing him play so I'm just going by what I've read and gathered from playing SOM for almost 30(!) years:  for somebody who wasn't as good as he "should have been", Cedeño still seemed to be pretty damn good.

Apologies for the (hopefully brief) thread hijack, but I'm sure that someone who reads this thread will know the answer.  How do you pronounce the surname of Houston '62-65 lefty pitcher Hal Woodeshick?

Curly

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 10:09:52 pm »
He was a great one. If he hadn't of murdered that prostitute in 1973 there is no telling just
how great he could have been.
She wasn't a prostitute (although he frequented them often), she was his mistress, and she is the one that pulled the trigger.  She pulled out his gun, and wouldn't give it back...he tried to get it from her and as the Hee Haw song goes.."pffft you was gone".

SaltyParker

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 10:26:02 pm »
She wasn't a prostitute (although he frequented them often), she was his mistress, and she is the one that pulled the trigger.  She pulled out his gun, and wouldn't give it back...he tried to get it from her and as the Hee Haw song goes.."pffft you was gone".
None the less, his career started a downward trend from that point on. Coming off back to back seasons where he hit .320 and only 22 years old, he then batted over .300 only one more time. With fans around the league shouting things like "who you gonna kill today Cesar?" at him, there is little doubt that it had some negative effect.

strosrays

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2007, 06:16:22 am »
Cedeño was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the D.R. for his involvement in the young woman's death, basically for having a gun on him at the time, and for allowing the woman to get hold of it and then struggling with her to get it back (inadvertantly leading to her death.)  He didn't help his case any by waiting several hours after the incident before reporting anything to the police, Ted Kennedy style.  He apparently thought it better to go home and get everything straight with his wife first.  His statement that he panicked in the aftermath because he was worried about his baseball career (while not mentioning concern for the woman, her family, etc. initially) might not have gone over too well, either.

At any rate, Cedeño got off light, only having to pay a small fine.

That incident happened in December of 1973.  I don't recall if it was specifically cited at the time, but I am guessing alcohol was involved, as well.  Cedeño was known from th get-go as a late night carouser and a heavy drinker by some people's standards.  He had several subsequent run-ins with the law over the years, almost all of them involving alcohol in one way or another.

I never bought the theory the shooting incident had something to do with his "decline".  The truth is that Cedeno played his best baseball ever the first 2/3 of the 1974 season, the one immediately following the shooting.  By the beginning of August, 1974, Cedeño was hitting .309/.371/.542, with 22 HRs and 82 RBIs, 67 runs, and 38 steals.  That projected to full-season totals of 37 HRs and 137 RBIs, 112 runs scored, and 63 stolen bases.  A terrific season, especially when one considers he was putting up those numbers in the mid-1970's Astrodome, as arid and trackless a hitter's graveyard as there was anywhere in baseball at the time. 

But then Cedeño slumped badly, hitting only .188/.274/.297 the last two months of 1974.  I always suspected some injury occurred that he tried to play through.  Or it could have been all the late nights, or that perhaps he was really 28 instead of 23 (there were rumors even at the time Cedeño first came up as a 19-year-old phenom that he was anywhere from two to five years older than he claimed to be.)  Actually, Cedeño had several very good seasons in Houston after the shooting incident, the main difference being he never hit for much power again after August of 1974.  Which is why I wonder if he didn't injure a shoulder or something around then.  If he was going to cave in emotionally from the trauma from the shooting, if he even suffered from any, it seems to me he would fall off in every aspect of his game, not just one specific category.



« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 06:21:27 am by strosrays »

juliogotay

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 10:11:51 am »
Cedeño was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the D.R. for his involvement in the young woman's death, basically for having a gun on him at the time, and for allowing the woman to get hold of it and then struggling with her to get it back (inadvertantly leading to her death.)  He didn't help his case any by waiting several hours after the incident before reporting anything to the police, Ted Kennedy style.  He apparently thought it better to go home and get everything straight with his wife first.  His statement that he panicked in the aftermath because he was worried about his baseball career (while not mentioning concern for the woman, her family, etc. initially) might not have gone over too well, either.

At any rate, Cedeño got off light, only having to pay a small fine.

That incident happened in December of 1973.  I don't recall if it was specifically cited at the time, but I am guessing alcohol was involved, as well.  Cedeño was known from th get-go as a late night carouser and a heavy drinker by some people's standards.  He had several subsequent run-ins with the law over the years, almost all of them involving alcohol in one way or another.

I never bought the theory the shooting incident had something to do with his "decline".  The truth is that Cedeno played his best baseball ever the first 2/3 of the 1974 season, the one immediately following the shooting.  By the beginning of August, 1974, Cedeño was hitting .309/.371/.542, with 22 HRs and 82 RBIs, 67 runs, and 38 steals.  That projected to full-season totals of 37 HRs and 137 RBIs, 112 runs scored, and 63 stolen bases.  A terrific season, especially when one considers he was putting up those numbers in the mid-1970's Astrodome, as arid and trackless a hitter's graveyard as there was anywhere in baseball at the time. 

But then Cedeño slumped badly, hitting only .188/.274/.297 the last two months of 1974.  I always suspected some injury occurred that he tried to play through.  Or it could have been all the late nights, or that perhaps he was really 28 instead of 23 (there were rumors even at the time Cedeño first came up as a 19-year-old phenom that he was anywhere from two to five years older than he claimed to be.)  Actually, Cedeño had several very good seasons in Houston after the shooting incident, the main difference being he never hit for much power again after August of 1974.  Which is why I wonder if he didn't injure a shoulder or something around then.  If he was going to cave in emotionally from the trauma from the shooting, if he even suffered from any, it seems to me he would fall off in every aspect of his game, not just one specific category.






Excellent analysis. He really was living up to the potential as "the next Willie Mays" up until the dropoff, regardless of the reasons for it. And what a graceful and talented defensive player.

hillbillyken

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 10:32:05 am »
I always thought the 1980 philly series would have come out different if not for his ankle injury. My first glove was a Cesar Cedeno model, i think i still have it somewhere?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 12:58:25 pm by hillbillieken »
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Arky Vaughan

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2007, 12:28:57 pm »
Cedeño was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the D.R. for his involvement in the young woman's death, basically for having a gun on him at the time, and for allowing the woman to get hold of it and then struggling with her to get it back (inadvertantly leading to her death.)  He didn't help his case any by waiting several hours after the incident before reporting anything to the police, Ted Kennedy style.  He apparently thought it better to go home and get everything straight with his wife first.  His statement that he panicked in the aftermath because he was worried about his baseball career (while not mentioning concern for the woman, her family, etc. initially) might not have gone over too well, either.

At any rate, Cedeño got off light, only having to pay a small fine.

That incident happened in December of 1973.  I don't recall if it was specifically cited at the time, but I am guessing alcohol was involved, as well.  Cedeño was known from th get-go as a late night carouser and a heavy drinker by some people's standards.  He had several subsequent run-ins with the law over the years, almost all of them involving alcohol in one way or another.

I never bought the theory the shooting incident had something to do with his "decline".  The truth is that Cedeno played his best baseball ever the first 2/3 of the 1974 season, the one immediately following the shooting.  By the beginning of August, 1974, Cedeño was hitting .309/.371/.542, with 22 HRs and 82 RBIs, 67 runs, and 38 steals.  That projected to full-season totals of 37 HRs and 137 RBIs, 112 runs scored, and 63 stolen bases.  A terrific season, especially when one considers he was putting up those numbers in the mid-1970's Astrodome, as arid and trackless a hitter's graveyard as there was anywhere in baseball at the time. 

But then Cedeño slumped badly, hitting only .188/.274/.297 the last two months of 1974.  I always suspected some injury occurred that he tried to play through.  Or it could have been all the late nights, or that perhaps he was really 28 instead of 23 (there were rumors even at the time Cedeño first came up as a 19-year-old phenom that he was anywhere from two to five years older than he claimed to be.)  Actually, Cedeño had several very good seasons in Houston after the shooting incident, the main difference being he never hit for much power again after August of 1974.  Which is why I wonder if he didn't injure a shoulder or something around then.  If he was going to cave in emotionally from the trauma from the shooting, if he even suffered from any, it seems to me he would fall off in every aspect of his game, not just one specific category.


Very very solid post.

strosrays

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2007, 03:12:29 pm »
Very very solid post.

Thank you.

I have been revisiting Cesar Cedeño and his statistical record frequently lately, ever since it occurred to me sometime late this past season that Cedeño is as good an Astros historical comp as any with which one may try and measure Hunter Pence's progess against.  Very similar skill sets to Cedeño coming in, and if one takes into account the differences in style of play, ballparks, etc., between the eras the two will have played in, very similar players at the early point of their respective careers.  Of course, PENCE!! has a long way to go before all-time comparisons.  And also, of course, I could be completely wrong.  But I am enjoying for now thinking of Hunter Pence coming up in 2007 like Cedeño did in 1970.

After the initial bang of his first season, Cedeño fell off badly in his second (first full-time) season, in 1971.  That sophomore season was a period of adjustment, I like to think, for Cedeño and for the rest of the league to Cedeño.  I don't know if it was valid, but I remember having the impression at the time that Cedeño was overswinging that second year, trying too hard to hit HRs (the literal equivalent of pissing in the wind in the old 'Dome.)  Jimmy Wynn had been stabbed in the gut by his wife that off-season, had to have emergency surgery, and had by far the worst season of his career in 1971; and no one else on the team hit much, either.  So there was a lot of pressure on the inexperienced Cedeño to produce offensively.  Maybe that messed him up that year.  Anyway, he shook it off and came back strong in 1972.  I intend to keep all that in mind next season, if PENCE!! falls victim to the dreaded Sophomore Slump (as I suspect he will), causing the Chron and all the call-in shows to panic and speculate endlessly on just what it was that brought young Hunter to fain wold lie down.

One thing most people do not mention when discussing why Cesar Cedeño didn't quite achieve the heights projected for him early on is Cedeño's personality.  From what I have read, he wasn't a very nice person, which is neither here nor there when it comes to baseball success; but he was undisciplined, too, and took the tremendous natural gifts he'd been blessed with wholly for granted, it seems.  Cedeño didn't work too hard at refining his craft, and didn't worry much about physical conditioning, either.  Among other things, this led to many minor injuries later in his career.

That would help explain the relatively short period of productive years in Cedeño's career, and why he failed in almost everyone's early expectations for him.  I don't think Pence will have the same problems Cedeño did in that respect.  On  the other hand, I am not sure Pence has quite the natural talent Cedeño did going in.  It will be interesting to watch Pence in his devlopment, and to see where he ends up in comparison.

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 03:17:01 pm »
Thank you.

I have been revisiting Cesar Cedeño and his statistical record frequently lately, ever since it occurred to me sometime late this past season that Cedeño is as good an Astros historical comp as any with which one may try and measure Hunter Pence's progess against.  Very similar skill sets to Cedeño coming in, and if one takes into account the differences in style of play, ballparks, etc., between the eras the two will have played in, very similar players at the early point of their respective careers.  Of course, PENCE!! has a long way to go before all-time comparisons.  And also, of course, I could be completely wrong.  But I am enjoying for now thinking of Hunter Pence coming up in 2007 like Cedeño did in 1970.

After the initial bang of his first season, Cedeño fell off badly in his second (first full-time) season, in 1971.  That sophomore season was a period of adjustment, I like to think, for Cedeño and for the rest of the league to Cedeño.  I don't know if it was valid, but I remember having the impression at the time that Cedeño was overswinging that second year, trying too hard to hit HRs (the literal equivalent of pissing in the wind in the old 'Dome.)  Jimmy Wynn had been stabbed in the gut by his wife that off-season, had to have emergency surgery, and had by far the worst season of his career in 1971; and no one else on the team hit much, either.  So there was a lot of pressure on the inexperienced Cedeño to produce offensively.  Maybe that messed him up that year.  Anyway, he shook it off and came back strong in 1972.  I intend to keep all that in mind next season, if PENCE!! falls victim to the dreaded Sophomore Slump (as I suspect he will), causing the Chron and all the call-in shows to panic and speculate endlessly on just what it was that brought young Hunter to fain wold lie down.

One thing most people do not mention when discussing why Cesar Cedeño didn't quite achieve the heights projected for him early on is Cedeño's personality.  From what I have read, he wasn't a very nice person, which is neither here nor there when it comes to baseball success; but he was undisciplined, too, and took the tremendous natural gifts he'd been blessed with wholly for granted, it seems.  Cedeño didn't work too hard at refining his craft, and didn't worry much about physical conditioning, either.  Among other things, this led to many minor injuries later in his career.

That would help explain the relatively short period of productive years in Cedeño's career, and why he failed in almost everyone's early expectations for him.  I don't think Pence will have the same problems Cedeño did in that respect.  On  the other hand, I am not sure Pence has quite the natural talent Cedeño did going in.  It will be interesting to watch Pence in his devlopment, and to see where he ends up in comparison.

one thing is certain: Pence has nowhere near the raw, natural talent Cedeno did.
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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2007, 03:22:34 pm »

One thing most people do not mention when discussing why Cesar Cedeño didn't quite achieve the heights projected for him early on is Cedeño's personality.  From what I have read, he wasn't a very nice person, which is neither here nor there when it comes to baseball success; but he was undisciplined, too, and took the tremendous natural gifts he'd been blessed with wholly for granted, it seems.  Cedeño didn't work too hard at refining his craft, and didn't worry much about physical conditioning, either.  Among other things, this led to many minor injuries later in his career.

That would help explain the relatively short period of productive years in Cedeño's career, and why he failed in almost everyone's early expectations for him.  I don't think Pence will have the same problems Cedeño did in that respect.  On  the other hand, I am not sure Pence has quite the natural talent Cedeño did going in.  It will be interesting to watch Pence in his devlopment, and to see where he ends up in comparison.

I met him at a fantasy baseball camp a couple of years ago.  I asked him what he thought of todays game and got a rather abrupt answer.  Not terribly rude but not conversational either.   Your comments on his personality brought back that recollection.  I don't think he's mellowed all that much with age.

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2007, 03:26:53 pm »
... he was undisciplined, ...

When he played, his family, not him so much, lived 3 doors down from my aunt and uncle in Sagemont, undisciplined, yeah.

hillbillyken

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2007, 05:19:56 pm »
I'm confused??? Who did Pence shoot?

Or are we comparing something else? Cause as far as baseball there isn't one!!!
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juliogotay

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2007, 05:41:08 pm »
one thing is certain: Pence has nowhere near the raw, natural talent Cedeno did.


Nor that of Jim Wynn.

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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2007, 06:19:00 am »
Super Baby had more raw talent than almost any other player I've ever seen. I suspect that he was his own worst enemy. I don't think that he was that hard of a worker.
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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2007, 08:06:28 am »
This is interesting to me:

1972 Cedeno .320
1973 Cedeno .320

1972 Watson .312
1973 Watson .312

Teammates with repeat batting averages in the same two seasons.
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Re: Cedeno
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2007, 08:28:23 am »
This is interesting to me:

1972 Cedeno .320
1973 Cedeno .320

1972 Watson .312
1973 Watson .312

Teammates with repeat batting averages in the same two seasons.

Neither actually had the same batting average in repeat seasons (although that would be quite a bizarre acheivement for a full-time player).
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