veteran leadership

[pravata]

Willie Randolph discussed what he thought lead up to the Mets collapse, complacency and overconfidence were two things he mentioned.  But also immaturity, manifested by Reyes and Milledge,

"Randolph had grown increasingly tired of the elaborate celebrations that were performed in full view of the opponent; in his day, Randolph often said, that just did not happen.

But he never seemed able to quell that issue, which recurred throughout the season and culminated in the choreographed high-fiving between Reyes and Milledge on Saturday that may have helped start a bench-clearing brawl.

Randolph said. “... I don’t make excuses for young players. They’re professionals. They need to know better. But there is only so much you can do as a coach or a manger as far as teaching a kid how to act professionally, how to respond and handle himself.”
Link

May have helped start the brawl, definitely pissed off the Marlins,

Florida shortstop Hanley Ramirez, (who got hit on the hand in the 13-0 loss on Sat) "I don't care if it's broke. I'm gonna play tomorrow.(Sunday) [Bleep] everybody on the Mets. We're going to kick their [butts]."
Link

This sort of stuff is creeping into the Astros, butt bumping etc.  It has been said many times that guys like Bagwell and Biggio taught the younger players how to comport themselves on the field.  I think we just glaze over those kinds of comments anymore and dismiss the effects.  We'd rather see the players get "excited".   But here's Willie Randolph saying that as a manager he had no control over how these kids behaved and none of the older players exerted any influence either, and it hurt the team.  I remember when Beltran went to the Mets he made a show of trying to mentor Wright and Reyes.  At least in Reyes' case, looks like it didn't work. 

[strosrays]

Willie Randolph discussed what he thought lead up to the Mets collapse, complacency and overconfidence were two things he mentioned.  But also immaturity, manifested by Reyes and Milledge,

"Randolph had grown increasingly tired of the elaborate celebrations that were performed in full view of the opponent; in his day, Randolph often said, that just did not happen.

But he never seemed able to quell that issue, which recurred throughout the season and culminated in the choreographed high-fiving between Reyes and Milledge on Saturday that may have helped start a bench-clearing brawl.

Randolph said. “... I don’t make excuses for young players. They’re professionals. They need to know better. But there is only so much you can do as a coach or a manger as far as teaching a kid how to act professionally, how to respond and handle himself.”
Link

May have helped start the brawl, definitely pissed off the Marlins,

Florida shortstop Hanley Ramirez, (who got hit on the hand in the 13-0 loss on Sat) "I don't care if it's broke. I'm gonna play tomorrow.(Sunday) [Bleep] everybody on the Mets. We're going to kick their [butts]."
Link

This sort of stuff is creeping into the Astros, butt bumping etc.  It has been said many times that guys like Bagwell and Biggio taught the younger players how to comport themselves on the field.  I think we just glaze over those kinds of comments anymore and dismiss the effects.  We'd rather see the players get "excited".   But here's Willie Randolph saying that as a manager he had no control over how these kids behaved and none of the older players exerted any influence either, and it hurt the team.  I remember when Beltran went to the Mets he made a show of trying to mentor Wright and Reyes.  At least in Reyes' case, looks like it didn't work. 

"Chemistry is everything," as Nils Bohr used to say.  The one guy I would've counted on to go apeshit when Reyes and Milledge pulled that crap was Moises Alou, who as I recall used to regularly accompany Bagwell on his questionable on-field behavior by young teammates search-and-destroy missions.  Maybe Alou felt like none of the other Mets veterans would back him up, and let it go.  Sad.

[jaklewein]

They need to know better. But there is only so much you can do as a coach or a manger as far as teaching a kid how to act professionally, how to respond and handle himself.”

I don't remember Randolph ever benching Reyes.  If he didn't that would've been a good place to start.

[pravata]

"Chemistry is everything," as Nils Bohr used to say.  The one guy I would've counted on to go apeshit when Reyes and Milledge pulled that crap was Moises Alou, who as I recall used to regularly accompany Bagwell on his questionable on-field behavior by young teammates search-and-destroy missions.  Maybe Alou felt like none of the other Mets veterans would back him up, and let it go.  Sad.

I guess the young player has to understand what's going on as well.  Because, as we know, Alou yelling at Berkman about baserunning mistakes turned the boy right around...

[Bench]

LoDuca said he gave Milledge "another" talking-to about his antics during the Mets' win on the second to last game of the season (exagerrated bat flip and raised hands when he hit his second homer of the blowout). It has been going on all season with Milledge who just doesn't get it.

Along with strosrays, I also thought Moises would jerk Reyes' leash this season, but it didn't seem to take. Amazing how such a talented player ended up not even being one of the best two shortstops in his division. Apparantly Valentin was the guy who kept Reyes' head straight, and his season ending injury was more costly than first realized. Jacking around with Milledge all season just made Reyes more impudent. 

[Bench]

I don't remember Randolph ever benching Reyes.  If he didn't that would've been a good place to start.

Didn't he bench Reyes against the Astros when Reyes failed to run out a grounder?

[Amy]

Didn't he bench Reyes against the Astros when Reyes failed to run out a grounder?

Yes, he did.  Guess it didn't help much.  I fear with such, um "free spirits" as Lee and Berkman taking over the reins, the examples set by Biggio and Bagwell of how to play the game will be all too quickly forgotten.  I sincerely hope I am wrong.

[Limey]

I guess the young player has to understand what's going on as well.  Because, as we know, Alou yelling at Berkman about baserunning mistakes turned the boy right around...

Berkman was infinitely better at paying attention then, than he is now.  I think there was at least some thin veil of influence on him when the grizzled and respected vets were around.  In 2008 and beyond, it's on Everett to keep him focused.  Good luck with that!

[Limey]

Yes, he did.  Guess it didn't help much.  I fear with such, um "free spirits" as Lee and Berkman taking over the reins, the examples set by Biggio and Bagwell of how to play the game will be all too quickly forgotten.  I sincerely hope I am wrong.

It was already happening during the hanging-on-for-3000-and-stuff Biggio tour of 2007.  It will get worse now that Biggio won't be there at all.

[MusicMan]

It was already happening during the hanging-on-for-3000-and-stuff Biggio tour of 2007.  It will get worse now that Biggio won't be there at all.

I think Bidge felt a particular urgency to pass on his style to Pence.

[JimR]

I think Bidge felt a particular urgency to pass on his style to Pence.

there is no way Pence can exert that kind of leadership. i am not as quick to deify Biggio as some of you. he was not always a good influence on the bench.

[hostros7]

Relevant to this discussion, I watched one pre-game interview on FSN with Biggio where he was asked who would take over as leader of the clubhouse when the Biggio/Bagwell era ended.  He replied Pence.  Not even lipservice to Berkman, AE, Oswalt et al.  As Jim mentioned, I don't think Biggio necessarily has the ability to pass on the scepter to whomever he deem relevant, but an interesting soundbyte nonetheless.

[MusicMan]

there is no way Pence can exert that kind of leadership. i am not as quick to deify Biggio as some of you. he was not always a good influence on the bench.

He was a clubhouse lawyer, by many accounts, and certainly no saint.  But there is still a substantial question of who will teach these guys the right *on field* approach.

[pravata]

there is no way Pence can exert that kind of leadership. i am not as quick to deify Biggio as some of you. he was not always a good influence on the bench.

Not always, but definitely sometimes. 

[Noe]

I'm hoping Cooper has the veteran presence to overcome this deficit on the team.  I know he's the manager, but at some point the buck stops with the head guy (hence why they are hired to be fired).  I understand Randolph's point but trust me, if he benced Reyes for more than half an inning, he'd have to  'splain hisself to the Wilpon family.  Same thing in Houston with Pence.  He's now the fair haired child of the organization, the excitable one who can actually put butts in the seats for McLane.  Can Cooper take the reign and actually do something like tell Pence to grab some pine for trying to go to third on a play that is in front of him and thus kill a rally?  I know, not a big mistake, a mistake of hustle proportions, yadda, yadda, yadda.  But the look on Cooper's face when Pence stopped and started and got throw out by three feet was priceless.  Bobby Cox would be yelling and maybe punching something.  I would love to see Coop do it just once to see what happens.  And hope to heck that fans don't rise up and boo to make it an issue with McLane.  At that point, Tal Smith better earn his money as the McLane Buffer (see this shiny new watch I bought boss... nice, eh?)

The irony is while Bagwell was the quiet leader on the team (moreso than Biggio), the criticism from fans was that Jeff was just not excitable enough to lead this team.  It was an actual complaint from the fans.  Now they have their excitable leader in Pence and the fans are appeased.

But will it be enough?  Will it work?  Will it just be Reyes on the Astros only wearing Pence's jersey?  I hope Cooper will step in and make sure some semblance of head on straight is happening.  If not, then they need to tell Bagwell to come back home more often from his fishing/golf trips to Cabo and do some mean starrin' at folks.

That is part of the contract for Baggy now, right?  Use your mean stare to say a thousand words to excitable players?  I hope so.