what's the big announcement in 30 minutes?

[ybbodeus]

Milo?  Personnel?  Management?  Change of radio stations?  Addition of sweet tea in the diamond suites?

[MusicMan]

The fifth dentist caved and is now recommending Trident.

[JimR]

the Lane for Beltran trade

[ybbodeus]

The fifth dentist caved and is now recommending Trident.

That's the news I was waiting for.  Adios, Dentyne!

[Burzmali]

Garner and Purpura donezo.

Thank god I don't have to endure any more of Garner. Making decisions on instict is just another way of saying that he has no fucking clue what he's doing. Don't even mention Purpura. Ty Wiggington.. Lane playing because of his defense in CF.. etc.

I did like the Jennings trade though. He just got unlucky on that one.

[MusicMan]

Making decisions on instict is just another way of saying that he has no fucking clue what he's doing.

Well, at least we have an expert on "no fucking clue what he's doing".

[ybbodeus]

Well, at least we have an expert on "no fucking clue what he's doing".

This is all effortless for you, isn't it? 

[MusicMan]

This is all effortless for you, isn't it? 

I'm posting on instinct.

[ybbodeus]

I'm posting on instinct.

The rim shot guy just knocked over his drum set laughing.

[tophfar]

.. Lane playing because of his defense in CF.. etc.

because injuries to both AE and Pence had nothing to do with Lane in CF in stupid ass make believe world, so why worry about finding solutions to them?

I did like the Jennings trade though. He just got unlucky on that one.

i'm sure he appreciates this and helps him sleep better at night.

[homer]

I'm posting on instinct.

Trusting your stuff.

[Burzmali]

because injuries to both AE and Pence had nothing to do with Lane in CF in stupid ass make believe world, so why worry about finding solutions to them?

i'm sure he appreciates this and helps him sleep better at night.

 

Rather run Burke back out there than Lane, or maybe try Anderson or Rodriguez. No defense can outweigh that absolute black hole of a hitter, and it's not like he's that great in CF anyway. Being the best defensive option among these outfielders is like being the smartest kid at the special olympics.

[homer]

Garner and Purpura donezo.

Thank god I don't have to endure any more of Garner. Making decisions on instict is just another way of saying that he has no fucking clue what he's doing. Don't even mention Purpura. Ty Wiggington.. Lane playing because of his defense in CF.. etc.

I did like the Jennings trade though. He just got unlucky on that one.

What is wrong with Wiggy?

[MRaup]

Rather run Burke back out there than Lane, or maybe try Anderson or Rodriguez. No defense can outweigh that absolute black hole of a hitter, and it's not like he's that great in CF anyway. Being the best defensive option among these outfielders is like being the smartest kid at the special olympics.

Yeah, because a brutally bad centerfielder hitting .230 with little pop is so much a better option than a solid if not spectacular centerfielder hitting .170something but hitting the occasional homer.

[Mr. Happy]

Milo?  Personnel?  Management?  Change of radio stations?  Addition of sweet tea in the diamond suites?

So what is the big announcement?

[Navin R Johnson]

Timmy and Phil are fired.  That is the BIG announcement.   i cant believe it.

[tophfar]

Rather run Burke back out there than Lane, or maybe try Anderson or Rodriguez. No defense can outweigh that absolute black hole of a hitter, and it's not like he's that great in CF anyway. Being the best defensive option among these outfielders is like being the smartest kid at the special olympics.

really?  burke can play both CF and 2B at the same time?  brilliant fucking idea.

and i wont even come close to trying to explain the roster problems that might arise with calling up the others, since i have no idea how anyone understands that kind of arcana.

Being the best defensive option among these outfielders is like being the smartest kid at the special olympics.

and that is a load of horseshit, the one thing lane has done consistently is be able to play D well.

[MusicMan]

Supposedly this is what 610 and 790 are both reporting.

[tophfar]

thats seriously fucked up.

[Burzmali]

What is wrong with Wiggy?

Redundant, imo of course. Wheeler had been a quality arm in the past.

[Limey]

Trusting your stuff.

Going to infrared and praying to God.

[Mr. Happy]

Timmy and Phil are fired.  That is the BIG announcement.   i cant believe it.

I haven't seen that anywhere on the net yet. Link?

[Burzmali]

really?  burke can play both CF and 2B at the same time?  brilliant fucking idea.

and i wont even come close to trying to explain the roster problems that might arise with calling up the others, since i have no idea how anyone understands that kind of arcana.

and that is a load of horseshit, the one thing lane has done consistently is be able to play D well.

Well they aren't top prospects, so I'm not sure there would be that many problems. The roster spot needed would be Lane's... and I think they are already on the 40-man. Could be wrong.

Brunt and Lo in the middle infield until Pence or AE gets back?

[Navin R Johnson]

It has been announced on the radio. 

[PSR]

I get the move, but I don't get the timing.

[Navin R Johnson]

Doesn't make any sense to me either, why now?   I guess all the classless MFers will be happy though.

[tophfar]

Well they aren't top prospects, so I'm not sure there would be that many problems. The roster spot needed would be Lane's... and I think they are already on the 40-man. Could be wrong.

Brunt and Lo in the middle infield until Pence or AE gets back?

because they've committed to putting burke at 2B to see how he does with a exntended period at his "natural" position.  

The whole point of Pence being her ein the first place was because Burke could not in fact play CF with any modicum of success.  So why wouldyou be putting him back there again?

[homer]

because they've committed to putting burke at 2B to see how he does with a exntended period at his "natural" position.

This probably just changed.

[Moose Marathon]

Boom goes the Dynamite!! Wow?

[tophfar]

This probably just changed.

yeah, it just might have.  it saddens me to think that the boo-fucks from this weekend might have had an influence on this decision.

[Limey]

Timmy and Phil are fired.  That is the BIG announcement.   i cant believe it.

If true, is Drayton reacting to the boos yesterday for Purpura?  He 86'd KaPowell after he got booed and I think Jimmah was gone pretty soon after he got jeered at the ASG.

[ybbodeus]

Timmy and Phil are fired.  That is the BIG announcement.   i cant believe it.

So they had a pre-announcement before the REAL announcement? 

[JimR]

fuck Pam Gardner and the MBAs who think baseball people know nothing.

[ybbodeus]

My God, he's not hiring Dusty Baker, is he?

[pravata]

The announcement is what it is, the big news is that the Astros management can no longer be trusted.  In the past they said they were looking for a certain type of person as a player, they sure don't have the same standards for upper management.

[Navin R Johnson]

So they had a pre-announcement before the REAL announcement? 

Not sure, but the local sports radio stations are all reporting that the big announcement is that Phil and Tim are gonzo.   If it had to do with the boos, then Drayton gets added to the classless MFers.

[remy]

If true, is Drayton reacting to the boos yesterday for Purpura?  He 86'd KaPowell after he got booed and I think Jimmah was gone pretty soon after he got jeered at the ASG.

I don't think so.  I have a feeling this has been planned for a little while, but Drayton didn't want Bagwell's day overshadowed.

[homer]

Baseball Channel talking about it:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=mms%3A//a1503.l1086932070.c10869.g.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1503/10869/v0001/reflector%3A32070&vid=7759&pid=gen_video&cid=mlb&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1

[Nate in IA]

The announcement is what it is, the big news is that the Astros management can no longer be trusted.  In the past they said they were looking for a certain type of person as a player, they sure don't have the same standards for upper management.

Exactly.

[strosrays]

So they had a pre-announcement before the REAL announcement? 

Garner and Purpura were canned to lay the groundwork for Alberto Gonzalez' resignation.

[ybbodeus]

I don't think so.  I have a feeling this has been planned for a little while, but Drayton didn't want Bagwell's day overshadowed.

so instead he opted to have it totally forgotten?

[homer]

Baseball Channel talking about it:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=mms%3A//a1503.l1086932070.c10869.g.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1503/10869/v0001/reflector%3A32070&vid=7759&pid=gen_video&cid=mlb&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&mUrl=&type=v_free&_mp=1

Press conference live at this link NOW.

[homer]

Drayton: "Decision I made yesterday... replace Purpura."

[ybbodeus]

Garner and Purpura were canned to lay the groundwork for Alberto Gonzalez' resignation.

Can we expect another Limey political correlation post?

[Limey]

so instead he opted to have it totally forgotten?

Don't be silly.  There's a number...six...I think, on the wall to remind everyone.

[Froback]

Seems Tal Smith is being asked to be interm GM, still listening to Drayton talk.

[homer]

Tal Smith interim GM.

[Limey]

Can we expect another Limey political correlation post?

I've exceeded my quota for the month.  Next Monday, however...

[homer]

"Positive conversation with Phil... not done what should have done in last two years."

Cecil is interim manager.

[Froback]

Wants more energy from the team.  I guess he thinks Cecil will get it.  (or Phil won't take your pick)

[David in Jackson]

I didn't expect this at all, especially now.

I assume Cecil finishes the season, then doesn't get the job.

No idea on GM.

[David in Jackson]

fuck Pam Gardner and the MBAs who think baseball people know nothing.

I don't get the Pam Gardner thing?

[homer]

Release:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070827&content_id=2173196&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

[remy]

First "exciting young player" that Coop mentions is Burke.

Brilliant.

[NeilT]

I didn't expect this at all, especially now.

I assume Cecil finishes the season, then doesn't get the job.

No idea on GM.

You should have known it was coming when Drayton started booing yesterday.

[homer]

Drayton repeats that the decision was made yesterday.

[Navin R Johnson]

Cecil said he is going to be running fan polls on Astros.com to help determine the fans favorite lineup.   He is hoping this will keep them on his side and keep then from booing him.   He is also looking to be able to have fans "text" their choice for pinch hitters and relief pitchers.

[David in Jackson]

First "exciting young player" that Coop mentions is Burke.

Brilliant.

Exciting?  Young?

[Froback]

Want to use the next 5 weeks to find a GM so they can have one by season's end. (hopefully)

Gerry was asked about, Drayton said "No"

[homer]

Drayton says Astros not bringing Gerry back.

[Astroholic]

I didn't expect this at all, especially now.

I assume Cecil finishes the season, then doesn't get the job.

No idea on GM.

I sure as fuck hope it aint Randy.

[remy]

Drayton:  No! We're not rebuilding!

[tophfar]

so it was the boos.  MMPUS, the new Colliseum.

[Froback]

Drayton:  No! We're not rebuilding!

Denial does not make it so.

But then I guess it depends on your definition of rebuilding too.

[homer]

Drayton: "Hitting number one issue."

"9 years of continuity. Stagnant. Need fresh ideas."

Footer I think asked about the boos and if they had an effect, Drayton cut her off and said no. Opinion has been changed over time.

[Outlawscotty]

Cooper:  Cruz to the bench; Bailey to first

Next three days anyway

[homer]

Cheo is bench coach.

Bailey is 1st base coach.

For at least next 3 days, maybe longer.

[Astroholic]

Cheo is bench coach.

Bailey is 1st base coach.

For at least next 3 days, maybe longer.

What Cheo too slow with the stop watch?

[juliogotay]

Drayton said earlier this year that this was the best coaching staff since he's had the team. So now it's stagnant?

[homer]

Drayton said earlier this year that this was the best coaching staff since he's had the team. So now it's stagnant?

I think that more on the GM issue.

[astrox]

I don't get the Pam Gardner thing?

OK, I'm just now getting the news.  What's the "Pam Gardner thing" being referred to?

[Astroholic]

OK, I'm just now getting the news.  What's the "Pam Gardner thing" being referred to?

I think it goes back to the 1 M hiring.

[Astroholic]

I think it goes back to the 1 M hiring.

I know one things for sure, no 'sports' radio on the way home tonight for me.

[Andyzipp]

I know one things for sure, no 'sports' radio on the way home tonight for me.

Can't understand why...The morons of the midday just suggested that Lou Pinella is the *perfect* fit.

[Astroholic]

Can't understand why...The morons of the midday just suggested that Lou Pinella is the *perfect* fit.

Exactly

[Astroholic]

Exactly

And luckly football season is starting so this should die down pretty fast.

[Kevin]

I don't get the Pam Gardner thing?

The Colonel may not be single-handedly running this franchise into the ground, but she's arguably the biggest perpetrator of the business over baseball mindset that seems to be eroding the organization. As Noe mentioned like 40 posts ago, this contributed to Hunsicker leaving in the first place, and why there's no way in hell he could be a possible replacement. Despite the success in '04 and '05, the Astros have been in decline since the Hun's departure and the subsequent deemphasis on the baseball side of the house. I expect that the new hires, whoever they happen to be, will reflect this.

[Nate in IA]

The Colonel may not be single-handedly running this franchise into the ground, but she's arguably the biggest perpetrator of the business over baseball mindset that seems to be eroding the organization. As Noe mentioned like 40 posts ago, this contributed to Hunsicker leaving in the first place, and why there's no way in hell he could be a possible replacement. Despite the success in '04 and '05, the Astros have been in decline since the Hun's departure and the subsequent deemphasis on the baseball side of the house. I expect that the new hires, whoever they happen to be, will reflect this.

And that is likely why the events of today seem so depressing -- the realization that this is a marketing-driven monster now instead of the team of which we've been true fans.

[pravata]

Drayton said earlier this year that this was the best coaching staff since he's had the team. So now it's stagnant?

He's a fucking liar.  That's how.  By the way, with Tal Smith you get the Crawford Boxes, a Hill, a Pole, and the necessity to paint a line to raise the fences after the first season.   Baseball is not foremost in his mind. 

[Astroholic]

And that is likely why the events of today seem so depressing -- the realization that this is a marketing-driven monster now instead of the team of which we've been true fans.

Drayton is a hands on bitness man.  He is very sucessful.  He understands bitness talk and marketing just makes since to him.  "Baaaaaseeeeball I don't know".

[At Ease]

And that is likely why the events of today seem so depressing -- the realization that this is a marketing-driven monster now instead of the team of which we've been true fans.

I think there's plenty 'baseball-driven' reasons to ditch TP.

[Astroholic]

I think there's plenty 'baseball-driven' reasons to ditch TP.

Not if he wasnt given the chance to succeed.

[JimR]

I think there's plenty 'baseball-driven' reasons to ditch TP.

bullshit.

start listing them, and be ready for replies.

[At Ease]

He's a fucking liar.  That's how.  By the way, with Tal Smith you get the Crawford Boxes, a Hill, a Pole, and the necessity to paint a line to raise the fences after the first season.   Baseball is not foremost in his mind. 

He's a fucking salesman.  What do you think he's going to say.

That's why you rely on what people do, not what they say.

[Limey]

He's a fucking liar.  That's how.  By the way, with Tal Smith you get the Crawford Boxes, a Hill, a Pole, and the necessity to paint a line to raise the fences after the first season.   Baseball is not foremost in his mind. 

...and then Drayton says "Can I have a choo-choo?", and Tal says "Suuure."

[pravata]

He's a fucking salesman.  What do you think he's going to say.

That's why you rely on what people do, not what they say.

I rely on people who do what they say they're going to do.  When they don't that's when I don't trust them, not before.

[dirty steve]

garner on 790 as of 3:10 CST

[At Ease]

Not if he wasnt given the chance to succeed.

Care to expound?  He's been GM for 3 years, and with the organization longer than that..

[tophfar]

Care to expound?  He's been GM for 3 years, and with the organization longer than that..

what does his tenure pre-GM have to do with whether or not he was given a chance to succeed as a GM?  He inherited a depleted farm system that was seeing the results of several poor drafts prior to his GM promotion.

[homer]

garner on 790 as of 3:10 CST

Please post highlights.

[Limey]

what does his tenure pre-GM have to do with whether or not he was given a chance to succeed as a GM?  He inherited a depleted farm system that was seeing the results of several poor drafts prior to his GM promotion.

Thanks Gerry.

[Astroholic]

Care to expound?  He's been GM for 3 years, and with the organization longer than that..

And he did a fine job with the organization before his stint as GM.  I think Drayton had way more influence on the day to day baseball decisions that he should have.  
1. I think that Jennings going to Baylor was a major reason that he is an Astro.
2. Taveras' agent was the devil.  Think that might have something to do with the trade?  Think the puppet master might have made that call.
3. Going back, do you think it was Gerry's decision to resign Biggio?
4. What about the Randy Johnson trade, GM's decision?

All of the above IMO of course.

[At Ease]

what does his tenure pre-GM have to do with whether or not he was given a chance to succeed as a GM?  He inherited a depleted farm system that was seeing the results of several poor drafts prior to his GM promotion.

Ok, he's been GM for 3 years... and the system is more depleted than ever.  Where the hell are you going with this?

[Froback]

Care to expound?  He's been GM for 3 years, and with the organization longer than that..

Drayton is too much of a hands on owner (without good baseball knowledge), which is why Gerry ended up leaving. (supposedly)

Tim had his hands tied because of that in certain areas.  IF Drayton wanted him to do something he had to do it.  Drayton needs to learn to let his baseball people do what is right for the franchise, until he does that, the team will have issues.

I will say Tim's drafts looked alot better than the previous few from Gerry.

[At Ease]

And he did a fine job with the organization before his stint as GM.  I think Drayton had way more influence on the day to day baseball decisions that he should have.  
1. I think that Jennings going to Baylor was a major reason that he is an Astro.
2. Taveras' agent was the devil.  Think that might have something to do with the trade?  Think the puppet master might have made that call.
3. Going back, do you think it was Gerry's decision to resign Biggio?
4. What about the Randy Johnson trade, GM's decision?

All of the above IMO of course.

So if TP is just a mindless puppet of Drayton, then what does it even matter if he's gone?

[Astroholic]

Ok, he's been GM for 3 years... and the system is more depleted than ever.  Where the hell are you going with this?

Maybe it is depleted because the owner wanted to make huge signings at the deadline?

[juliogotay]

The Colonel may not be single-handedly running this franchise into the ground, but she's arguably the biggest perpetrator of the business over baseball mindset that seems to be eroding the organization. As Noe mentioned like 40 posts ago, this contributed to Hunsicker leaving in the first place, and why there's no way in hell he could be a possible replacement. Despite the success in '04 and '05, the Astros have been in decline since the Hun's departure and the subsequent deemphasis on the baseball side of the house. I expect that the new hires, whoever they happen to be, will reflect this.

I'm sorry but if the business side of the operations is getting into areas they don't belong that's Drayton's fault. Period. He needs to stop it and give the baseball people control over baseball. It worries me that he may not understand that.

I wonder if the old "philosophical differences" is rearing its' ugly head. TP telling Drayton we need to rebuild...it's gonna take a coupla years. Drayton says there isn't time for that. Win now. Play harder.

True story. Early 90's I called on the marketing person for the Astros to sell them advertising. The team was struggling and he said the pitchers needed to throw that ball a little harder.

[Limey]

Ok, he's been GM for 3 years... and the system is more depleted than ever.  Where the hell are you going with this?

Through no real fault of his own, Purpura has had to replace, from a depleted farm system:  Bagwell, Kent, Beltran, Clemens and Pettitte.  In doing so, he spent a lot of what little currency he had left.

[Astroholic]

So if TP is just a mindless puppet of Drayton, then what does it even matter if he's gone?

It matters because if he was given a proper chance, he might have done a better job.  It matters because Drayton ran off another competent GM (Gerry).  It matters because we as fans want the stros to succeed.  Will the next GM be able to succeed?  Not if Drayton continues to run his baseball team like he runs his billion dollar grocery store.

[JGrave]

Please post highlights.

There wasn't a whole lot said.  He felt like they were playing better until this homestand started.  Thought Lance was playing harder/hustling more and was pround of him for leading the way.  Disappointed they couldn't get it together and make a run.  Just generally disappointed.  Wishes organization the best and wishes Cecil luck, he deserves a shot.  Takes the blame for the team not playing well.  

Oh, and McLane is about to be on.

[tophfar]

Ok, he's been GM for 3 years... and the system is more depleted than ever.  Where the hell are you going with this?

Just how quickly do you think it takes a player to move from being drafted into the upper levels of the farm system to be able to provide help to the big club?

This is not football or basketball where just drafted personnel make immediate impact, except in the rarest of occassions.

The results of Purpuras drafts are still making their way up through the organization.  The "even more depeleted" state is because of the firesale of minor league players in the Go For It All trade philosophy of the past several years.  Coupled with the weak drafts that Pupura didnt make, and you have an organization waiting to implode.

The point being, this 3 years as seen by some as an eternity to "prove oneself", is not an acceptable time period to actually prove anything.

[JimR]

There wasn't a whole lot said.  He felt like they were playing better until this homestand started.  Thought Lance was playing harder/hustling more and was pround of him for leading the way.  Disappointed they couldn't get it together and make a run.  Just generally disappointed.  Wishes organization the best and wishes Cecil luck, he deserves a shot.  Takes the blame for the team not playing well.  

Oh, and McLane is about to be on.

if Lance is "leading the way," the herd is moving slowly.

[Froback]

Through no real fault of his own, Purpura has had to replace, from a depleted farm system:  Bagwell, Kent, Beltran, Clemens and Pettitte.  In doing so, he spent a lot of what little currency he had left.

While you can get some good guys later in the draft, always losing out on your 1st and 2nd rounders due to FA signings can kill a farm system.

Signing Pettitte, Kent, Lee, Williams.  I am sure there might have been others as well, but eventually this catches up with you.  This is another problem with the "Win now at all costs!" approach that Drayton seems to be pushing for.  Winning now is nice when you can.  But this team really needs to spend some time rebuilding its system and not go out and sign every top FA they can.  They are just NOT that close right now... And what they need most doesn't appear to be in the FA market (unless you want an older non-leadoff CFer).

[Limey]

if Lance is "leading the way," the herd is moving slowly.

...and randomly.

[Froback]

if Lance is "leading the way," the herd is moving slowly.

Amen.

When Drayton made a comment about the team playing with more passion, I thought about Lance first off.  I love the player, but he isn't Bagwell or Biggio.

[Fredia]

Amen.

When Drayton made a comment about the team playing with more passion, I thought about Lance first off.  I love the player, but he isn't Bagwell or Biggio.

i am going to have to stop taking those naps in the afternoon.. all hell broke loose,, i read the thing twice to make sure it was for real and not some of those fantasy posts

[JGrave]

if Lance is "leading the way," the herd is moving slowly.

McLane:  when I said I wasn't replacing the manager and gm, I was evaluating the team at the time.  Then when we lost the to the Pirates at the beginning of the year, important series, I felt like there was a problem.

I get input from a lot of directions.  Sportscasters, fans in the stands, players, etc.

Booing had nothing to do with Tim's firing.  GM is a complicated job.  His evaluation had to do with the state of the entire of organization.  It was a series of things that have transpired over the past year and a half.  

Minor League system is a concern.  Combination of many things helped him make the decision.

Told Tal after the game and then they talked to Tim and then Garner this morning.

No regret with how it played out with Gerry.  Said Thanks, Gerry.  Gerry will not be back.  Must move forward.  No reaching back.

Cecil is being evaluated and will make a decision at the end of the season.

Wants to inject some enthusiasm.

Wants someone who'll be a leader to be the GM.

[dirty steve]

uncle D on 790:
-team hasnt functioned well as team last 1 1/2 years.
-cited Washington and Pittsburgh as "critical" series.
-takes opinion of sports radio broadcasters into decision-making process. (?)
-booing was not input used as basis for purp firing.  series of things that have transpired
over last 1 1/2 years.
-minor system is "of concern."

missed the end of it. (at work).

[Astroholic]

takes opinion of sports radio broadcasters into decision-making process

God Help Us.   HE SHOULD NOT BE INVOLVED IN BASEBALL DECISIONS.

[Fredia]

uncle D on 790:
-team hasnt functioned well as team last 1 1/2 years.
-cited Washington and Pittsburgh as "critical" series.
-takes opinion of sports radio broadcasters into decision-making process. (?)
-booing was not input used as basis for purp firing.  series of things that have transpired
over last 1 1/2 years.
-minor system is "of concern."

missed the end of it. (at work).

you think .. a team that went to the ws a few years back now cant beat two other cellar dwellers would give you pause

[Limey]

uncle D on 790:
-takes opinion of sports radio broadcasters into decision-making process. (?)

Maybe he's just saying that whilst in studio, then comments that they're all full of shit once the interview is over.

[Kevin]

I get input from a lot of directions.  Sportscasters, fans in the stands,

Confidence inspiring.

[austro]

Maybe he's just saying that whilst in studio, then comments that they're all full of shit once the interview is over.

Well played.

[Astroholic]

Well played.

Nevermind, I get it now.  Well played indeed.

[David in Jackson]

Through no real fault of his own, Purpura has had to replace, from a depleted farm system:  Bagwell, Kent, Beltran, Clemens and Pettitte.  In doing so, he spent a lot of what little currency he had left.

Wasn't TP in charge of the farm system before being promoted to GM?

[At Ease]

Just how quickly do you think it takes a player to move from being drafted into the upper levels of the farm system to be able to provide help to the big club?

This is not football or basketball where just drafted personnel make immediate impact, except in the rarest of occassions.

The results of Purpuras drafts are still making their way up through the organization.  The "even more depeleted" state is because of the firesale of minor league players in the Go For It All trade philosophy of the past several years.  Coupled with the weak drafts that Pupura didnt make, and you have an organization waiting to implode.

The point being, this 3 years as seen by some as an eternity to "prove oneself", is not an acceptable time period to actually prove anything.

Yeah, I'm aware of how the farm system works, and I'm aware the farm system was already in pretty sorry states--although it at least included names such as Hirsh, Patton, Pence..   That depletion has only been further compounded by picks lost to FA signings or refusal to offer departing FA's arbitration, young players lost in the ill-conceived Jennings trade, and the inability to sign draft picks (it's TP's decision to emphasize signing HS players-- HS players with div 1 scholarships have a ton of draft day leverage).  It also didn't help that he refused to trade failed starters like CQ for low level prospects, because of his insistance that they get someone that can help now in return.

If the farm system is weakened to help the club, that's one thing.  But neither happened under TP.  The team has gotten worse, and the farm system has gotten weaker.  How much longer do the Astros really need to continue that pattern?

[pravata]

Wasn't TP in charge of the farm system before being promoted to GM?

Yes he was.  And he developed the minor leaguers they used in trade.  Also had to manuver around the lost draft choices because of FA signings.

[Hornstros]

I wonder if JdJO's bloggers had any influence in Drayton's decision

[Mr. Happy]

Yes he was.  And he developed the minor leaguers they used in trade.  Also had to manuver around the lost draft choices because of FA signings.

He helped develop the shitload of prospects that we've traded over the years.

[pravata]

He helped develop the shitload of prospects that we've traded over the years.

They lost 3 in the Johnson trade, 1 in the Beltran trade.  Traded a couple for Huff.  The big thing was the injuries to the pitchers and the lost draft choices.

[Jacksonian]

Yes he was.  And he developed the minor leaguers they used in trade.  Also had to manuver around the lost draft choices because of FA signings.

And no.  He had to follow Gerry's org philosophy and specific directions in player selection and development.  The GM is always in charge of the farm system.

[David in Jackson]

They lost 3 in the Johnson trade, 1 in the Beltran trade.  Traded a couple for Huff.  The big thing was the injuries to the pitchers and the lost draft choices.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the Astros success in the 90s with their farm system was due to a strong Latin organization, Venezuela especially.   This part of a minor league organization isn't related to the draft.  It's more important than ever since a greater percentage of players aren't raised in the USA.

It seems to me that this part of our system has either declined or been caught by other teams.  Thoughts?

[tophfar]

It also didn't help that he refused to trade failed starters like CQ for low level prospects

i can ony assume you mean Qualls.  Who has been a mainstay for the bullpen for the past four years.  The same bullpen that has provided the stability for the playoff pushes and late season runs for the past 3 years.  At what point in time do you suggest that he was to be traded and for what "low level prospects".

The answer, "I don't know, it's Pupura's job to do that" is not acceptable.  

If the farm system is weakened to help the club, that's one thing.  But neither happened under TP.  The team has gotten worse, and the farm system has gotten weaker.  How much longer do the Astros really need to continue that pattern?

Maybe as soon as his players coming up through the system prove themself major league caliber or not?  Most of Purpura's "incompetence" that people see boil down to one of two things, too much faith in "his" players, Lane, Burke, Ensbreg, that did not perform up to expectations.  And a trade that was to meet a serious need on the team this year that did not turn out because of injury.  Whether anybody inlcuding Madam Cleo could have known he was injured is up to other people to judge.

And that's really about it.

[Jacksonian]

and the farm system has gotten weaker.  

I dispute that.

[tophfar]

And no.  He had to follow Gerry's org philosophy and specific directions in player selection and development.  The GM is always in charge of the farm system.

No it's common knowledge I heard that Purpura has been making all minor league decisions, incuding drafting players for at least 10 years now.  

[At Ease]

I dispute that.

You follow it more closely than I do, so I hope I'm wrong.

[Arky Vaughan]

Yeah, I'm aware of how the farm system works, and I'm aware the farm system was already in pretty sorry states--although it at least included names such as Hirsh, Patton, Pence..   That depletion has only been further compounded by picks lost to FA signings or refusal to offer departing FA's arbitration, young players lost in the ill-conceived Jennings trade, and the inability to sign draft picks (it's TP's decision to emphasize signing HS players-- HS players with div 1 scholarships have a ton of draft day leverage).  It also didn't help that he refused to trade failed starters like CQ for low level prospects, because of his insistance that they get someone that can help now in return.

If the farm system is weakened to help the club, that's one thing.  But neither happened under TP.  The team has gotten worse, and the farm system has gotten weaker.  How much longer do the Astros really need to continue that pattern?

The problem is that the only way to rebuild the farm clubs is to refrain from free-agent signings that cause the Astros to lose their picks or to trade away established players in return for prospects. For all the pissing and moaning about Purpura now, imagine the virtiol if his tenure had been one of no significant free-agent signings and if veteran players approaching contract years had been peddled for minor-leaguers. Berkman and Oswalt could probably have netted a boatload of promising young players, but would it have been worth the price?

Talent evaluation only gets you so far when you're not getting high-round draft picks and you're not shipping out high-priced talent at the trade deadline to raid other franchises' farm systems. The Jeff Bagwell trade would've never happened on Hunsicker's or Purpura's watch because the team was too successful to have been involved in such a situation. (And, of course, nobody could've predicted how well that trade worked out for the Astros.) There's a lot of luck involved even when you're running an organization with clockwork efficiency.

[Mr. Happy]

They lost 3 in the Johnson trade, 1 in the Beltran trade.  Traded a couple for Huff.  The big thing was the injuries to the pitchers and the lost draft choices.

Obviously you're right. My point was that we've had some good prospects during Purpura's tenure, and it would be unfair not to give him some of the credit for that.

[Jacksonian]

No it's common knowledge I heard that Purpura has been making all minor league decisions, incuding drafting players for at least 10 years now.  

Purpura drafted who Gerry told him to draft.  Not each player specifically, but what kind of player.  Gerry wanted college talent in bulk.  So, Purp drafted it.  Purp wanted to put more emphasis on hs players, esp early.  So, you get the last 3 drafts.  If Gerry wanted a pitcher moved to the pen or outfielder moved to the infield, Purp did it even if he disagreed.  In the end the GM calls the shots.

[tophfar]

Purpura drafted who Gerry told him to draft.  Not each player specifically, but what kind of player.  Gerry wanted college talent in bulk.  So, Purp drafted it.  Purp wanted to put more emphasis on hs players, esp early.  So, you get the last 3 drafts.  If Gerry wanted a pitcher moved to the pen or outfielder moved to the infield, Purp did it even if he disagreed.  In the end the GM calls the shots.

I was being facetious, in regards to a different thread.

[At Ease]

"i can ony assume you mean Qualls.  Who has been a mainstay for the bullpen for the past four years.  The same bullpen that has provided the stability for the playoff pushes and late season runs for the past 3 years.  At what point in time do you suggest that he was to be traded and for what "low level prospects"."

I think you kind of answered it yourself.  There was no July playoff push this season.  No late season run.  So this year, obviously.

"Maybe as soon as his players coming up through the system prove themself major league caliber or not?  Most of Purpura's "incompetence" that people see boil down to one of two things, too much faith in "his" players, Lane, Burke, Ensbreg, that did not perform up to expectations.  And a trade that was to meet a serious need on the team this year that did not turn out because of injury.  Whether anybody inlcuding Madam Cleo could have known he was injured is up to other people to judge."

Right, putting faith in guys like Lane was a mistake.   Trading for Jennings was a mistake, not because he was injured, but because this was a guy who put up 5+ ERAs 3 of the last 4 seasons.  I don't think you can trade away 3 young players, including your starting CF and a promising pitcher like JH just for an inning eater with that kind of track record.  But that's me.  I wouldn't call it his worst decision by any stretch..

Edited to remove the Pence comment, which I'll cede was a stretch.

[At Ease]

The Jeff Bagwell trade would've never happened on Hunsicker's or Purpura's watch because the team was too successful to have been involved in such a situation.

Except this season?  It would have never happened because TP decided he wouldn't trade any of the 3 relievers other teams were interested in for a 'lowly AA player' that couldn't help right away. 

[Jacksonian]

You follow it more closely than I do, so I hope I'm wrong.

Names to know:  Bogusevic, Iorg, Henriquez, Manzella, Flores, Sapp, Perez, Johnson, Van Ostrand and others who have talent but lack polish from the 05 and 06 drafts.  Most of the guys mentioned will be in AA or above next year.  There are some intriguing long term prospects at Tri-City and Greeneville too.

Gerry's 99-03 drafts were disasters.  His 04 and last draft was his best since 98.  And, Purp managed the 04 ascendency of Pence, Patton, and Towles.

[Kent's Moustache]

Holding back Pence when he was obviously ML ready was a mistake.

Having a kid play a month of AAA ball before promoting him to the big club is hardly "holding him back."  Arguable points can be made about Lane, Burke, Jennings, etc., but this contention about Pence is simply asinine.

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing some "fans" run down Ensberg.  If you've got great memories and/or a bunch of Astros NL Champs or World Series gear from '05, then you have them in large part because of Ensberg.

[pravata]

Ensberg had a couple of injuries, very difficult to judge a player when injured.  Especially since there were months when he looked liked the MVP candidate of 2005.  Purpura never put "faith" in Burke nor Lane, were they ever full time for an entire season?  The Astros had no hesitation to pull either one.  As for Jennings, screw the ERA, it wasn't that high, reliable innings is what they wanted. 

[At Ease]

Losing a month of his production was a mistake. One most GM's would probably make, one TP shouldn't be crucified for, but a mistake nonetheless.

[Jacksonian]

 Holding back Pence when he was obviously ML ready was a mistake.  

I'll dispute this one too.

There was nothing in Pence's minor league history to indicate he was ready for the show to start this season.

[Mr. Happy]

Having a kid play a month of AAA ball before promoting him to the big club is hardly "holding him back."  Arguable points can be made about Lane, Burke, Jennings, etc., but this contention about Pence is simply asinine.

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing some "fans" run down Ensberg.  If you've got great memories and/or a bunch of Astros NL Champs or World Series gear from '05, then you have them in large part because of Ensberg.

Agree about Pence. I think that the Luke Scott experience in his first season when Luke came out of nowhere during ST had a little to do with it. If anything, they might have rushed Pence, since they brought him up more because Burke was not cutting it in CF.

With respect to Ensberg, I agree too. Pravata makes an excellent point that Ensberg was hurt, and it is difficult to judge a player who is trying to play through it. I had had enough of Morgan's "approach" at the plate, but I also hope that he regains his form no matter who he's playing for. I always try to pull for players period.

[BlownRanger]

Cheo is bench coach.

Bailey is 1st base coach.

For at least next 3 days, maybe longer.

I realize this isn't that important right now, but if Cheo's not out there, who the hell's gonna run over and grab every player that reaches first base and excitedly alert him to the little known fact that the guy behind third base is about to flash some signals?

[Mr. Happy]

I realize this isn't that important right now, but if Cheo's not out there, who the hell's gonna run over and grab every player that reaches first base and excitedly alert him to the little known fact that the guy behind third base is about to flash some signals?

He told you. It's Mark Bailey.

[Andyzipp]

I realize this isn't that important right now, but if Cheo's not out there, who the hell's gonna run over and grab every player that reaches first base and excitedly alert him to the little known fact that the guy behind third base is about to flash some signals?

What do you think that any other person is going to bring to that position?  The first base coach is by and large there to carry equipment and yell encouraging things.  Sometimes they operate a stop watch at the same time.

[JimR]

Losing a month of his production was a mistake. One most GM's would probably make, one TP shouldn't be crucified for, but a mistake nonetheless.

bullshit.

[Noe]

So if TP is just a mindless puppet of Drayton, then what does it even matter if he's gone?

Actually, it's not just Drayton but more people in the organization that wanted a say so on the baseball side that had no... ahem... business... having a say so over there.  Tim P made his mistakes and a viable reason for his dismissal can certainly be made.  I'm not aware of many managers and GMs that are not dismissed at one time or another.

The booing yesterday registered with more than just McLane.   So he's gone for that reason more than the baseball ineptitude that some will try to sell you.  If you believe the ineptitude angle, then good for you.  It's not the entire truth.  BTW - Gerry Hunsicker had the same issues and he was not a puppet and neither is Purpura.  But the real loser in all this is McLane because GMs and Managers will talk to each other and if he thinks it's going to be easy to replace a GM simply because it's a major league job, he's wrong about that one.

A good GM is going to want assurances and more control and a ton of money in order to work with him.  McLane may have to buy low now and that may mean some hard times for his organization.  IMHO of course.

[Mr. Happy]

Losing a month of his production was a mistake. One most GM's would probably make, one TP shouldn't be crucified for, but a mistake nonetheless.

You're wrong. We don't know what kind of start Pence would have gotten off to had he started the season with the parent club.

[BlownRanger]

You're wrong. We don't know what kind of start Pence would have gotten off to had he started the season with the parent club.

I was actually glad that the club seemed to learn from the Luke Scott fiasco of '05.  And there's every possibility that that's the kind of start Pence would have had.

[Rammer33]

The booing yesterday registered with more than just McLane.   So he's gone for that reason more than the baseball ineptitude that some will try to sell you.  If you believe the ineptitude angle, then good for you.  It's not the entire truth. 

I agree to an extent although, and maybe it was just me, but I picked up on some developmental issues with hitters in Drayton’s comments ... did you catch that ? I wasn't sure if I misheard it or not - something along the lines of 'offensively as an organization from top to bottom' ... maybe it was just me and I could have misheard something as folks where walking in and out of my office ...

[At Ease]

You're wrong. We don't know what kind of start Pence would have gotten off to had he started the season with the parent club.

You don't say.....

I've deleted that statement, since I agree in hindsight my statement was a stretch.  I still think its emblematic of a problem in TP trusting his young players.  He didn't think Hirsh was ready.  He didn't think Pence was ready.  And in both cases, his decision to look elsewhere for production proved detrimental.

[Andyzipp]

You don't say.....

I've deleted that statement, since I agree in hindsight my statement was a stretch.  I still think its emblematic of a problem in TP trusting his young players.  He didn't think Hirsh was ready.  He didn't think Pence was ready.  And in both cases, his decision to look elsewhere for production proved detrimental.

He didn't trust young guys, although that's what he was lauded for in 2005...interesting.

[JimR]

You don't say.....

I've deleted that statement, since I agree in hindsight my statement was a stretch.  I still think its emblematic of a problem in TP trusting his young players.  He didn't think Hirsh was ready.  He didn't think Pence was ready.  And in both cases, his decision to look elsewhere for production proved detrimental.

look, NO ONE IN RR THOUGHT HE WAS READY OUT OF ST. everyone agreed that he needed time at AAA. sending him there was in no way a mistake, and he was not killing the league when he went up.

he had a great start, but he still may finish at .275. just watch the games, and try not to fix blame on everything.

[At Ease]

look, NO ONE IN RR THOUGHT HE WAS READY OUT OF ST. everyone agreed that he needed time at AAA. sending him there was in no way a mistake, and he was not killing the league when he went up.

he had a great start, but he still may finish at .275. just watch the games, and try not to fix blame on everything.

I think I pretty clearly stated the decision to leave him in RR was one that most any GM would make... and I've retracted my statements concerning such.

I'm not out to blame anyone for anything.  If the organization is weaker now whatever reason, it's not going to detract from my ability to enjoy watching the Stros play.  But I disagree with the general consensus that this firing had nothing to do with TP's baseball decisions, or that he was never given an opportunity to prove himself.

[Arky Vaughan]

Except this season?  It would have never happened because TP decided he wouldn't trade any of the 3 relievers other teams were interested in for a 'lowly AA player' that couldn't help right away.

Do you have any idea whether Purpura was offering anything as interesting or enticing? I don't.

[pravata]

I think I pretty clearly stated the decision to leave him in RR was one that most any GM would make... and I've retracted my statements concerning such.

I'm not out to blame anyone for anything.  If the organization is weaker now whatever reason, it's not going to detract from my ability to enjoy watching the Stros play.  But I disagree with the general consensus that this firing had nothing to do with TP's baseball decisions, or that he was never given an opportunity to prove himself.

Wrong, and didn't work, are two different things.  As are agreeing and understanding.

[Noe]

You're wrong. We don't know what kind of start Pence would have gotten off to had he started the season with the parent club.

Also, you don't know if the performance that Pence has had is a direct result from being held back for a month.  Anyone stop to think that Purpura did well by the kid instead of actually holding him back?

[DVauthrin]

Hunter Pence was not hurt by a month in AAA.   He still is a free swinger who needs to work heavily on plate discipline.    He also takes some really bad hacks at the plate that make you scratch your head, and he like the entire team sans lee and loretta struggles with the idea of situational hitting.

The one thing saving him from a prolonged slump is his short quick stroke/bat speed.

The booing yesterday was pathetic, and while I think at times Tim was too loyal/faithful to homegrown players(see ensberg, burke, lane) the down year from Lance is not his fault, the Jennings injury wasn't his fault, Luke Scott's 1st half wasn't his fault, Everett's injury wasn't his fault, and the bullpen implosion mid season came out of nowhere.



 

[Noe]

Hunter Pence was not hurt by a month in AAA.   He still is a free swinger who needs to work heavily on plate discipline.    He also takes some really bad hacks at the plate that make you scratch your head, and he like the entire team sans lee and loretta struggles with the idea of situational hitting.

The one thing saving him from a prolonged slump is his short quick stroke/bat speed.

Eggszactly!

The booing yesterday was pathetic, and while I think at times Tim was too loyal/faithful to homegrown players(see ensberg, burke, lane) the down year from Lance is not his fault, the Jennings injury wasn't his fault, Luke Scott's 1st half wasn't his fault, Everett's injury wasn't his fault, and the bullpen implosion mid season came out of nowhere.

Yet McLane is entitled to fire his GM and Manager if he wishes.  That comes with the territory and if McLane sees ineffective leadership at either helm, then so be it.  But the timing is what bugs me.  It is right after a booing at a very sentimental ceremony for a baseball icon.  Same with the booing that went on at the ASB with Jimy Williams.

It shows a lack of honor on McLane's part to me and really he listens way too much to those who want to keep these fans placated.  The honest truth is that unless he has the 1927 Yankees (and even then I'm not sure) who knows what will satisfy the fans.  McLane has no one to blame now that he's establish this precedent amongst the baseball men in the MLB.  He's going to have some hard selling to do to explain how the booing and firing are unrelated to his GM and Managerial candidates.

[Jose Cruz III]

I think, and I reserve the right to be wrong, if Purpura would have done what he wanted the Jennings trade would have never happened anyway. I am not saying Drayton told him to go get Jennings, but his win now approach forced him to go get a starter and the price is high on starters. Mistake or not, I don't think TP should shoulder the entire blame for that.

His other option was Garland who has sucked as bad as Jennings this year.

As always, I am probably wrong.

[DVauthrin]

Eggszactly!

Yet McLane is entitled to fire his GM and Manager if he wishes.  That comes with the territory and if McLane sees ineffective leadership at either helm, then so be it.  But the timing is what bugs me.  It is right after a booing at a very sentimental ceremony for a baseball icon.  Same with the booing that went on at the ASB with Jimy Williams.

It shows a lack of honor on McLane's part to me and really he listens way too much to those who want to keep these fans placated.  The honest truth is that unless he has the 1927 Yankees (and even then I'm not sure) who knows what will satisfy the fans.  McLane has no one to blame now that he's establish this precedent amongst the baseball men in the MLB.  He's going to have some hard selling to do to explain how the booing and firing are unrelated to his GM and Managerial candidates.

I agree with you, I was just pointing out a lot of the blame should go towards the players as well.   I was embarrassed by the booing yesterday and I knew as soon as I heard the presser on 610 today that it had played a role.  I'm not shocked he got fired, I just don't like the circumstances around the firing.

[Arky Vaughan]

I was embarrassed by the booing yesterday.

Me too.

[The Third Man]

I find the manner of this firing and Drayton's comments pretty disturbing. The Astros have not been in decline over the last two years because of a lack of enthusiasm. The have lost a lot of talent to age, trades and free agency in recent years and it is catching up with them. Jennings was their big gamble and it didn't work out, but the move was defensible given the dearth of pitching talent available. I am worried that the organization is liable to follow the Baltimore Orioles model (the current one) of signing splashy free agents rather than building over the long term through pitching, defense and youth through the farm system. Maybe Purpura got caught up in this difference of philosophies. I hope it was over something like this and not in response to the boos of a bunch jackasses.

[Reuben]

I find the manner of this firing and Drayton's comments pretty disturbing. The Astros have not been in decline over the last two years because of a lack of enthusiasm. The have lost a lot of talent to age, trades and free agency in recent years and it is catching up with them. Jennings was their big gamble and it didn't work out, but the move was defensible given the dearth of pitching talent available. I am worried that the organization is liable to follow the Baltimore Orioles model (the current one) of signing splashy free agents rather than building over the long term through pitching, defense and youth through the farm system. Maybe Purpura got caught up in this difference of philosophies. I hope it was over something like this and not in response to the boos of a bunch jackasses.

Either way, it does not bode well for the direction/management of the franchise. The timing is extremely puzzling, and IMO a bit disrespectful to Bagwell, not to mention Purpura and Garner who I'd imagine were caught very off-guard. And to fire both at the same time strikes me as kind of bizarre- they just fired the pitching & hitting coaches last year; Drayton is essentially saying "It's everybody's fault but mine!" (and the players of course)... really? Has Garner really changed from a miracle-worker hard-ass into a bad manager in less than two years?

I also think that Noe is right; it will be a tough sell to get the right kind of GM to accept a job under this FO.

[Jacksonian]

I also think that Noe is right; it will be a tough sell to get the right kind of GM to accept a job under this FO.

Who's the right kind?  I assume you are at least not talking about Tal's son.

I'm expecting to see an assistant GM in another org take over.

[Burzmali]

because they've committed to putting burke at 2B to see how he does with a exntended period at his "natural" position.  

The whole point of Pence being her ein the first place was because Burke could not in fact play CF with any modicum of success.  So why wouldyou be putting him back there again?

Absolutely, and I agree. But the injury changes the situation. In any case Pence is back now, and it wasn't that big of a deal in the first place. Just an example of the ineptitude.

[Burzmali]

Hunter Pence was not hurt by a month in AAA.   He still is a free swinger who needs to work heavily on plate discipline.    He also takes some really bad hacks at the plate that make you scratch your head, and he like the entire team sans lee and loretta struggles with the idea of situational hitting.

The one thing saving him from a prolonged slump is his short quick stroke/bat speed.

Drink the kool-aid much?

All we've heard around here ever since he came up was what a terrible move that was. It was sure to ruin his development as a player, he wasn't close to being ready. He came in and set the league on fire, just deal with it. Enough with the "oh, once there's a scouting report he'll be toast", "he looks horrible at the plate", "he has no arm", etc. It's like people are rooting for the guy to fail. It took an injury to slow him down, don't kid yourself.

[Reuben]

Who's the right kind?  I assume you are at least not talking about Tal's son.

I'm expecting to see an assistant GM in another org take over.

Sometimes even those types are tough to bring in. When the Red Sox were looking for a new GM after Theo's walk-out, guys like Dayton Moore (can't remember who else) declined 1st or 2nd interviews because they were wary of how overbearing the ownership (read: Larry Lucchino) is there.

I'm probably not qualified to say who "the right kind" is, but yeah, probably not Randy SMith.

[Noe]

I agree with you, I was just pointing out a lot of the blame should go towards the players as well.   I was embarrassed by the booing yesterday and I knew as soon as I heard the presser on 610 today that it had played a role.  I'm not shocked he got fired, I just don't like the circumstances around the firing.

Agreed.

[JimR]

Drink the kool-aid much?

All we've heard around here ever since he came up was what a terrible move that was. It was sure to ruin his development as a player, he wasn't close to being ready. He came in and set the league on fire, just deal with it. Enough with the "oh, once there's a scouting report he'll be toast", "he looks horrible at the plate", "he has no arm", etc. It's like people are rooting for the guy to fail. It took an injury to slow him down, don't kid yourself.

injury is a nice excuse for no plate discipline. sliders in the dirt are slowing him down. will he adjust?

[Burzmali]

injury is a nice excuse for no plate discipline. sliders in the dirt are slowing him down. will he adjust?

Sure do hope so, love watching him play.

For the record, I wasn't really against starting him in AAA.

[JimR]

Sure do hope so, love watching him play.

For the record, I wasn't really against starting him in AAA.

then, all you're doing is baiting. you will not find anyone in AAA who thought moving him up after 20 games was smart. it worked out for a good while, but the pitchers are pitching him smarter now. let's see how he adjusts.

i like his enthusiasm and hope he does well. he is far from a good player, though. the best thing about him is that he knows that too and wants to get better.

[Reuben]

injury is a nice excuse for no plate discipline. sliders in the dirt are slowing him down. will he adjust?

Exactly. No one is hoping he fails. But you hate to see a guy with so much obvious talent waste a crucial AB, or in the long-term fail to make adjustments. His shortcomings get talked about here because that's one of the fun parts of being a baseball fan, watching to see if a good young player can refine his game and become even better.

[Mr. Happy]

Drink the kool-aid much?

All we've heard around here ever since he came up was what a terrible move that was. It was sure to ruin his development as a player, he wasn't close to being ready. He came in and set the league on fire, just deal with it. Enough with the "oh, once there's a scouting report he'll be toast", "he looks horrible at the plate", "he has no arm", etc. It's like people are rooting for the guy to fail. It took an injury to slow him down, don't kid yourself.

BS

No one here has ever rooted for Pence to fail. To the contrary, we rooted for him to succeed. I've been friggin' tickled by his success and hopes that he keeps it up for the Good Guys. However, there are some obvious gaps in his game that probably could have been best helped by a longer stay in AAA with Jackie Moore and working against the wily, mostly veteran pitchers down there. Pence has benefitted from a quick bat, watered down pitching at the big league level and his first trip through the league. This is a game of adjustments. Luke Scott looked like a world beater in 2006. This season has been a different story. Scott's got some adjustments to make in the off-season. Coach had it right: Pence may finish up at .275.

[jbm]

It's hard for me to really understand the reasons.  Some have mentioned a shift from baseball people to business people and  Drayton's timing fits that theory, and that might be the end of the story.

However, the one aspect I haven't heard about is Tal's role in this.  I don't know for sure, but I've always assumed Tal is the one voice Drayton listens to, and I also assume he has been highly influencial in most of the baseball decisions during Drayton's reign.  I also have a lot of respect for his knowledge of baseball and have always assumed that Tal is a big believer in pitching and defense first.  I never got the impression that TP believed in that as much as Tal.  At any rate, I wonder if Tal felt the Astros had lost that focus and therefore  lobbied for a change.  I could be way off on this line of thought, but I do think Tal's opinion, based on baseball not business, played some riole in today's decisions.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Sure do hope so, love watching him play.

For the record, I wasn't really against starting him in AAA.

You've added nothing.  Read more, post less.  This day was made more tiresome by the endless barrage of "See, I told you so." type posts by you and a number of others.  Sure, decisions were made that give the appearance of confirming your viewpoint and you now get to have yourself a self-congratulatory party.  Well done.  Know what?  A number of people on this board still think you don't know shit.  Yay!  I know I don't know shit and yet I know you know less.  Woo hoo.... welcome to my ignore list... yippee....

[Noe]

Drink the kool-aid much?

All we've heard around here ever since he came up was what a terrible move that was. It was sure to ruin his development as a player, he wasn't close to being ready. He came in and set the league on fire, just deal with it. Enough with the "oh, once there's a scouting report he'll be toast", "he looks horrible at the plate", "he has no arm", etc. It's like people are rooting for the guy to fail. It took an injury to slow him down, don't kid yourself.

You really think that was what was said around here?  I posted many a report from what I personally saw about his CF play and he continued to make the same mistakes in the majors that I saw in the minors.  I also posted about the first time I saw him hit and noticed his lightning quick bat on fastballs but propensity to chase sliders that made him look sick.  However, he works hard to get better and is a great kid, but suffice it to say, the majors is the worse place to develop one's game.  So we're all rooting for him to make the best of a hard situation for *any* kid asked to do what he's being asked to do.  His quick bat is creating all the feel good stuff for those seeking a great story for this season amongst the Astros front office.  Pence is doing well by them, but secretly, he's having to learn a lot and Craig Biggio is trying to help as much as he humanly can.  Garner said he was going to have to work hard to fix his flaw with sliding.  Ironically, that injury you speak of that slowed him down is directly associated to not learning in the minors the proper way to slide and something he could've used more time to develop down there.

Honestly, some folks just do not try to understand very simple things any more.  They rather listen to the voices in their own head.

[tophfar]

Absolutely, and I agree. But the injury changes the situation. In any case Pence is back now, and it wasn't that big of a deal in the first place. Just an example of the ineptitude.

Pence getting injured suddenly made Burke able to catch the ball?

Made Up Fantasy Land is a wonderful place.

[BUWebguy]

However, the one aspect I haven't heard about is Tal's role in this.  I don't know for sure, but I've always assumed Tal is the one voice Drayton listens to, and I also assume he has been highly influencial in most of the baseball decisions during Drayton's reign.  I also have a lot of respect for his knowledge of baseball and have always assumed that Tal is a big believer in pitching and defense first.  I never got the impression that TP believed in that as much as Tal.  At any rate, I wonder if Tal felt the Astros had lost that focus and therefore  lobbied for a change.  I could be way off on this line of thought, but I do think Tal's opinion, based on baseball not business, played some riole in today's decisions.

This looks like it might have been missed among all the Pence talk, but I've always thought the same thing about Drayton listening to Tal. Is that right? Any other thoughts on Tal's role in this might have been?

[JimR]

This looks like it might have been missed among all the Pence talk, but I've always thought the same thing about Drayton listening to Tal. Is that right? Any other thoughts on Tal's role in this might have been?

Tal Smith is a 100% baseball man.

[Rammer33]

Ironically, that injury you speak of that slowed him down is directly associated to not learning in the minors the proper way to slide and something he could've used more time to develop down there.

If so, as a side note, its probably somehting that should have been touched on before he was 24 and in AAA ...

[MusicMan]

If so, as a side note, its probably somehting that should have been touched on before he was 24 and in AAA ...

Tal Smith responded to this on RJ's show, saying that this is only his 3rd year in the organization, and he was hurt for part of 2005.

[pravata]

Tal Smith responded to this on RJ's show, saying that this is only his 3rd year in the organization, and he was hurt for part of 2005.

So HE'S calling bs on Mclane too?

[MusicMan]

So HE'S calling bs on Mclane too?

Not sure.  I heard all of five minutes.  But his guest list - and I grant, this is impressive - for two hours today included Tal, Stark, Gammons, and a couple of others I'm forgetting.

He's well connected.  And if he sticks to the format that seemed like "ask questions of informed guests", he'll be a bright spot on the radio.

[pravata]

Not sure.  I heard all of five minutes.  But his guest list - and I grant, this is impressive - for two hours today included Tal, Stark, Gammons, and a couple of others I'm forgetting.

He's well connected.  And if he sticks to the format that seemed like "ask questions of informed guests", he'll be a bright spot on the radio.

Tal Smith is like a Moray eel.  Hides in his hole, when he sees his opportunity delivers a big bite, then goes back into hiding.  As for Justice, no doubt he has connections, mostly with other opinion talkers.  Not so much an insider with the Astros.  But if he gives them a format to talk, that'll work too. 

[homer]

Tal Smith is like a Moray eel.  Hides in his hole, when he sees his opportunity delivers a big bite, then goes back into hiding.  As for Justice, no doubt he has connections, mostly with other opinion talkers.  Not so much an insider with the Astros.  But if he gives them a format to talk, that'll work too. 

What time is Polly going to be on?

[Noe]

If so, as a side note, its probably somehting that should have been touched on before he was 24 and in AAA ...

His defense was a bigger issue and being worked on primarily.  Folks tend to think Pence came up a huge prospect somehow.  His original status was that of "needs work to become a decent left fielder".  He was never a come right out of the box high ceiling prospect.

[JimR]

His defense was a bigger issue and being worked on primarily.  Folks tend to think Pence came up a huge prospect somehow.  His original status was that of "needs work to become a decent left fielder".  He was never a come right out of the box high ceiling prospect.

excellent point. he played 3 years at UT Arlington. that is not where can't miss prospects go to school.

[Noe]

Not sure.  I heard all of five minutes.  But his guest list - and I grant, this is impressive - for two hours today included Tal, Stark, Gammons, and a couple of others I'm forgetting.

He's well connected.  And if he sticks to the format that seemed like "ask questions of informed guests", he'll be a bright spot on the radio.

Absolutely!  Pinwheel's show is a bright spot on the sports talk radio landscape for me.

[Jacksonian]

excellent point. he played 3 years at UT Arlington. that is not where can't miss prospects go to school.

There are a number of orgs that thought the Astros swung and missed when they picked him in the 2nd round.  MANY experts thought his bat wouldn't translate at the professional level.  I can't think of anyone who thought he could be anything resembling a RF when he was drafted.

[Noe]

There are a number of orgs that thought the Astros swung and missed when they picked him in the 2nd round.  MANY experts thought his bat wouldn't translate at the professional level.  I can't think of anyone who thought he could be anything resembling a RF when he was drafted.

I remember the link you provided to his video created by the scouts.  Pence was really rough back then and look very clumsy.   His hard work paid off, but to think anyone thought he was a high ceiling guy is a huge stretch.  He is a diamond that definitely came out of the rough, but has things he must continue to work on.

Pence's story in the last several months though has stardust twinkling in the eyes of some marketing folks who want to translate that story into something great for the fans to celebrate.  I don't blame them, they're losing Bagwell and Biggio, and Berkman isn't really the leader type they had hoped for.  Pence is very much needed to fill the void.  Even if he's still a bit rough around the edges.